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fenix1
03-27-2018, 10:31 PM
Is the career progression (success in being hired at legacy/major airlines) of Q400 pilots adversely affected by the fact that they’ve flown turboprops, rather than jets? Or do QX’s Q400 pilots advance similarly to their peers (ie, other regionals & QX E175 pilots) who fly RJ’s?

Understood that QX is transitioning to E175’s (and retiring the Q400’s), but this seems to be occurring on a timeline that’s TBD and has already had some unforeseen challenges affect the transition.


snackysmores
03-27-2018, 11:17 PM
Is the career progression (success in being hired at legacy/major airlines) of Q400 pilots adversely affected by the fact that they’ve flown turboprops, rather than jets? Or do QX’s Q400 pilots advance similarly to their peers (ie, other regionals & QX E175 pilots) who fly RJ’s?

Understood that QX is transitioning to E175’s (and retiring the Q400’s), but this seems to be occurring on a timeline that’s TBD and has already had some unforeseen challenges affect the transition.

We've had a bunch of people go to Delta, SWA, etc.

121 is 121. Alaska has hired a bunch of Lakers in the past too flying 1900s. It doesn't matter.

Excargodog
03-28-2018, 06:54 AM
The difficulty in choosing Horizon for the new guy is that if you go to the Q400 you will be flying an aircraft that is being phased out of the inventory, meaning you may be looking at short term future domicile and aircraft change and in the interim having to take the leavings as more and more of the longer routes go to the jet.

But if you go to the jet, every Q400 they do retire will shove about seven more FOs ahead of you in the bidding seniority for the lines available.

If the transition goes smoothly the extra extra e-jet flying that comes with the new aircraft ought to make that somewhat of a wash, but little of the process has gone all that smoothly thus far, IMHO anyway.

And the outsourcing of Horizon flying to Skywest is worrisome to say the least.


rickair7777
03-28-2018, 08:09 AM
I found that prop 121 time alone was not enough, except for SWA. I observed after the brasilia retired at SKW, within one year former bro CAs were leaving in droves once they got a jet type and a few hundred hours to go with their years of prop experience.

There is more training risk for prop drivers going to an advanced jet. Although the Q is a lot more sophisticated than a bro.

Prop time is not wasted, all or almost all of the people in my legacy class had both prop and jet time. But I would have a plan to get jet time in your hip pocket if you're in a hurry.

If you're not in a hurry, they should be hiring everybody in five years.

fenix1
03-28-2018, 12:42 PM
Is there strong potential for Horizon to alter their domiciles (close and/or open) based solely on the transition from Q400's to E175's? It seems like the significant difference in performance between equipment could easily drive changes to the route structures or, at the least, schedules for pilots.

Is the outsourcing of flying to OO from QX indicative of real trouble for QX? (Would AS ever simply cut bait and sell them???) Or is this outsourcing simply a temporary solution to a near-term problem that QX can eventually solve & take back the 175 flying from OO?

The difficulty in choosing Horizon for the new guy is that if you go to the Q400 you will be flying an aircraft that is being phased out of the inventory, meaning you may be looking at short term future domicile and aircraft change and in the interim having to take the leavings as more and more of the longer routes go to the jet.

But if you go to the jet, every Q400 they do retire will shove about seven more FOs ahead of you in the bidding seniority for the lines available.

If the transition goes smoothly the extra extra e-jet flying that comes with the new aircraft ought to make that somewhat of a wash, but little of the process has gone all that smoothly thus far, IMHO anyway.

And the outsourcing of Horizon flying to Skywest is worrisome to say the least.

amcnd
03-28-2018, 01:20 PM
Is there strong potential for Horizon to alter their domiciles (close and/or open) based solely on the transition from Q400's to E175's? It seems like the significant difference in performance between equipment could easily drive changes to the route structures or, at the least, schedules for pilots.

Is the outsourcing of flying to OO from QX indicative of real trouble for QX? (Would AS ever simply cut bait and sell them???) Or is this outsourcing simply a temporary solution to a near-term problem that QX can eventually solve & take back the 175 flying from OO?

Its a 12-15 year contract. And OO owns the aircraft. So unless they want to spend billions on new aircraft and get put of the contract some how, not going to happen. Bigger fish to fry. VX...

BarrySeal
03-28-2018, 01:24 PM
I would say does not matter. Look at the Jetstream 31, EMB-110 "Bandit", steam gage Metroliners, etc.

all those dudes paved the way to airlines before

fenix1
03-28-2018, 02:25 PM
Is this still true today, when almost 100% of regional 121 flying is done by jets?

I would say does not matter. Look at the Jetstream 31, EMB-110 "Bandit", steam gage Metroliners, etc.

all those dudes paved the way to airlines before

fenix1
03-28-2018, 02:29 PM
The AS/OO agreement is a 12-15 year agreement? QX is already in contract to take on 30 E175's (with options for 30-ish more), right?

Its a 12-15 year contract. And OO owns the aircraft. So unless they want to spend billions on new aircraft and get put of the contract some how, not going to happen. Bigger fish to fry. VX...

rickair7777
03-28-2018, 03:18 PM
I would say does not matter. Look at the Jetstream 31, EMB-110 "Bandit", steam gage Metroliners, etc.

all those dudes paved the way to airlines before

Is this still true today, when almost 100% of regional 121 flying is done by jets?

That's the problem. In the past majors hired prop pilots from commuters because that's all that was available on the 121 side.

Today there's so many jet pilots, who are less of a training risk. Jet time and multiple types help... a lot. The problem with single types is you might be a one trick pony, especially if you've been flying the same plane for 10+ years. It's not really a "rule", more of a trend.

DashAviator
03-29-2018, 11:56 AM
Is there strong potential for Horizon to alter their domiciles (close and/or open) based solely on the transition from Q400's to E175's? It seems like the significant difference in performance between equipment could easily drive changes to the route structures or, at the least, schedules for pilots.

Is the outsourcing of flying to OO from QX indicative of real trouble for QX? (Would AS ever simply cut bait and sell them???) Or is this outsourcing simply a temporary solution to a near-term problem that QX can eventually solve & take back the 175 flying from OO?

Air Group's preferred business model is to whipsaw Horizon against SkyWest, to keep costs low for their regional feed. Could Alaska sell Horizon to SkyWest? Yes... but this is unlikely to happen as long as we've got $1B worth of Q400's on the property. Once Horizon becomes an all-jet regional (or mostly all-jet), a sale becomes more likely.

Klsytakesit
03-29-2018, 03:29 PM
There is no outsourcing of Horizon flying. All of the flying is Alaska Airlines inc. The route planners at Alaska Airlines decide who flys what. They decide if it will be mainline 737/A320 or if it will be regional feed. They also decide which regional feed. Skywest or Horizon. They have publicly stated that most midcon and east coast regional flying will be done by Skywest as well as most long stage length west coast flying. They are keeping Horizon mostly on the west coast north/south flying as Horizon cannot recover in an irop that occurs off the west coast. That is what Alaska Airlines is saying publicly. What Horizon is telling there employees may be different. It appears that it is Alaska Airlines intent to have a nearly equal balance in jet flying between Horizon and Skywest for the long term.

rickair7777
03-29-2018, 03:30 PM
Air Group's preferred business model is to whipsaw Horizon against SkyWest, to keep costs low for their regional feed. Could Alaska sell Horizon to SkyWest? Yes... but this is unlikely to happen as long as we've got $1B worth of Q400's on the property. Once Horizon becomes an all-jet regional (or mostly all-jet), a sale becomes more likely.

I'm pretty sure SKW wouldn't take Q's if AAG gave them away. They considered and rejected that airframe back in the day.

They have also been burned by purchasing established regionals, they are 0 for 2 on that. I seriously doubt they'd touch QX unless they had some amazingly good terms... terms you guys probably shouldn't give them.

snackysmores
03-29-2018, 08:56 PM
I've said it many times over the years, Alaska will not allow Skywest to be the sole provider of their feed and have a monopoly. There must always be competition for them to keep costs low. We aren't going anywhere.

fenix1
03-29-2018, 11:30 PM
The industry-wide consensus is that more flying will be done by wholly-owned regionals (and less by contract regionals) with AA leading the way, DL hot on their heels and UA exploring but currently somewhat hamstrung in making it happen. What is fundamentally different about AS's business model/vision/strategy - especially after acquiring Virgin - that would lead to AS selling their regional entity (QX), rather than making it more robust? Why would AS be committed to buying 30 E175's (with options for 30-ish more) if there was a chance they'd sell QX & get out of the wholly-owned regional business?

Comair is historical context that the wholly-owned regionals and their parents companies both keep in mind on some level, but the future isn't the past and - looking ahead - I struggle with the idea that AS would ever sell QX. Are the internal dynamics between AS & QX really THAT jacked up?

Also, rather than acquire another regional, isn't OO more likely to purchase more E175's to replace all the CRJ-200's? (Or is OO waiting until UA's check for ExpressJet is cashed to do this?...)

Air Group's preferred business model is to whipsaw Horizon against SkyWest, to keep costs low for their regional feed. Could Alaska sell Horizon to SkyWest? Yes... but this is unlikely to happen as long as we've got $1B worth of Q400's on the property. Once Horizon becomes an all-jet regional (or mostly all-jet), a sale becomes more likely.

amcnd
03-30-2018, 06:47 AM
QX will always be around AS wouldn’t want to get burned if OO had trouble.. with that being said. QX will never be 500 aircraft like OO. I can see about 30-45 E175’s. All based off staffing and attrition.. the problem with all regionals now is they are hiring 21-28 year olds. The industry is way to good for them to stay at a regional. If QX could find more “lifers” to replace the ones they have then they could sustain more then 30 aircraft in the he future..

Excargodog
03-30-2018, 07:21 AM
If QX could find more “lifers” to replace the ones they have then they could sustain more then 30 aircraft in the he future..

With "life" now ending at 65 rather than 60, there is actually more of a payback to make the transition and become once again low man on the totem pole for a few years than there once was. Future "lifers" might be more people the majors simply don't want or at least find less desirable, rather than just fifty something year olds content to be the most senior person with the best schedule in the domicile they want with insufficient flying career left to justify the personal cost of making the jump. The extra five years can make a serious difference.

skruts
04-03-2018, 06:36 AM
What about someone with 1000+ hours of Part 135 jet time (Midsize Cabin jet) who comes to QX on the Q? Do you think the 135 jet time would help negate some of that or are majors really looking for 121 jet time specifically?

Blackhawk
04-03-2018, 06:44 AM
I found that prop 121 time alone was not enough, except for SWA. I observed after the brasilia retired at SKW, within one year former bro CAs were leaving in droves once they got a jet type and a few hundred hours to go with their years of prop experience.

There is more training risk for prop drivers going to an advanced jet. Although the Q is a lot more sophisticated than a bro.

Prop time is not wasted, all or almost all of the people in my legacy class had both prop and jet time. But I would have a plan to get jet time in your hip pocket if you're in a hurry.

If you're not in a hurry, they should be hiring everybody in five years.
I'm not sure, but I think those pilots leaving may have more to do with them getting another type. The majors don't seem to like captains who have been in their seat too long. New type ratings seems to help them get traction in hiring.

fivebyfive
04-03-2018, 07:52 AM
I've said it many times over the years, Alaska will not allow Skywest to be the sole provider of their feed and have a monopoly. There must always be competition for them to keep costs low. We aren't going anywhere.
So very true. And so very obvious. How in the love of god did this pilot group cowar down so far for the last CBA? They had Tilden on the ropes.

snackysmores
04-09-2018, 12:25 PM
So very true. And so very obvious. How in the love of god did this pilot group cowar down so far for the last CBA? They had Tilden on the ropes.

Management hired a union busting consultant firm which helped them deceive, antagonize, intimidate, and instill fear within the pilot group. Basically they followed every management play that is outlined in the book "Confessions of a union buster" which should be mandatory reading for all pilots.

fivebyfive
04-10-2018, 02:36 PM
Management hired a union busting consultant firm which helped them deceive, antagonize, intimidate, and instill fear within the pilot group. Basically they followed every management play that is outlined in the book "Confessions of a union buster" which should be mandatory reading for all pilots.

What keeps the QX exco going under the realization their pilot group has no backbone?

fivebyfive
04-10-2018, 04:16 PM
I mean local union reps sacrifice a lot of time going to battle for their pilot group. There has to be some trust that in the end, pilots will have their locals back. Otherwise their fight is for nothing.

PowderFinger
04-11-2018, 05:52 AM
I would say does not matter. Look at the Jetstream 31, EMB-110 "Bandit", steam gage Metroliners, etc.

all those dudes paved the way to airlines before

Didn't matter for me but that was 30 years ago ... Fewer jet jocks to choose from at that time. I had no problems in training, IOE, or on the line but it did take a few years to feel truly comfortable.

Different times now and YMMV

DashAviator
04-12-2018, 05:58 PM
What keeps the QX exco going under the realization their pilot group has no backbone?

In the case of our 2016 contract, I felt that the union was "part of the problem", not part of the solution. Horizon management was able to convince a majority of the pilot group (and our union leadership) that they were willing to SHUT THE COMPANY DOWN if we did not ratify the tentative agreement. As a result, the union leaders did their part to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) during union meetings prior to the vote.

Historically, Horizon has had a very weak pilot group. It's possible that our union leadership believed that the pilot group wasn't willing to hold out for a better deal.

fivebyfive
04-13-2018, 05:44 PM
In the case of our 2016 contract, I felt that the union was "part of the problem", not part of the solution. Horizon management was able to convince a majority of the pilot group (and our union leadership) that they were willing to SHUT THE COMPANY DOWN if we did not ratify the tentative agreement. As a result, the union leaders did their part to spread FUD (Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt) during union meetings prior to the vote.

Historically, Horizon has had a very weak pilot group. It's possible that our union leadership believed that the pilot group wasn't willing to hold out for a better deal.

Interesting. Did the union recommend a yes vote? A look at the upcoming QX and OO E175 rout length comparison and it tells a very scary tale. Did the union not see this coming? My understanding is that the union took the “companies word for it”, regarding the need for a 4.2 in the jet. Has the company lived up to their word in the past? Is this an 8 year contract? It is my understanding that in business, you get it all in writing. I assume Teamster lawyers were involved?

DashAviator
04-13-2018, 06:12 PM
“Yes” to most of the above. The 4.2 hour credit only applies to the Dash - it was felt that the trips built for the jet would be high block and well above 4.2 hours per day.

The union recommended a “yes” vote. To quote directly from one of the union E-mails: “As a whole, we don’t believe this is a concessionary contract.”

I voted NO anyway, primarily because I didn’t like the reserve section. I was also willing to call the company’s bluff when it came to shutting down the airline. Commit to compete? Nope!

Ironically enough, the ink was barely dry on the contract before the company started figuring out ways to violate the agreement.

fivebyfive
04-13-2018, 08:19 PM
“Yes” to most of the above. The 4.2 hour credit only applies to the Dash - it was felt that the trips built for the jet would be high block and well above 4.2 hours per day.

The union recommended a “yes” vote. To quote directly from one of the union E-mails: “As a whole, we don’t believe this is a concessionary contract.”

I voted NO anyway, primarily because I didn’t like the reserve section. I was also willing to call the company’s bluff when it came to shutting down the airline. Commit to compete? Nope!

Ironically enough, the ink was barely dry on the contract before the company started figuring out ways to violate the agreement.

The contract obviously lacks any wording that would hold the company accountable for the implementation of “long thin routs”. Odd that union lawyers would completely pass on that. Understanding the history of mgmt dishonesty, this is very disturbing. Especially knowing that the Q400s would be phasing out. What equipment would replace those routs? Did the union think Sky West would bring back the Brasilia 120 and a few CRJ 200s? Completely oblivious to our E175s taking over those routs?
It is alarming that the union didn’t find this to be a concessionary contract. I personally find it unacceptable. Any word on bringing on a different union? Maybe give someone else a chance? Just because Teamsters can’t get it done doesn’t mean it is impossible to get a respectable contract. Maybe give someone else a try. Any thoughts?

Excargodog
04-13-2018, 09:01 PM
The 4.2 hour credit only applies to the Dash - it was felt that the trips built for the jet would be high block and well above 4.2 hours per day.

REALLY? How is that working out for you...?

amcnd
04-14-2018, 05:35 AM
The contract obviously lacks any wording that would hold the company accountable for the implementation of “long thin routs”. Odd that union lawyers would completely pass on that. Understanding the history of mgmt dishonesty, this is very disturbing. Especially knowing that the Q400s would be phasing out. What equipment would replace those routs? Did the union think Sky West would bring back the Brasilia 120 and a few CRJ 200s? Completely oblivious to our E175s taking over those routs?
It is alarming that the union didn’t find this to be a concessionary contract. I personally find it unacceptable. Any word on bringing on a different union? Maybe give someone else a chance? Just because Teamsters can’t get it done doesn’t mean it is impossible to get a respectable contract. Maybe give someone else a try. Any thoughts?

SkyWest doesn’t fly E120’s (haven’t in 2 years) so thats some other operator.. The SkyWest 200’s (as of now) are done middle of June. (Per the system wide scheduling report)

DashAviator
04-14-2018, 08:22 AM
Oddly enough, the pilots at Horizon Air almost became ALPA. Here's a very condensed history of unionization at Horizon:

(1) During the 80's and 90's, the pilots were represented by a series of weak in-house unions.

(2) Sometime in the early- to mid-90's (?), the pilot group tried to unionize under ALPA. The effort failed by seven votes. At the time, the rules regarding unionization stated that "not voting" was the same as a "no" vote. So, about half of our pilots voted for ALPA, and the other half either voted "no" or didn't vote at all.

(3) Next, the pilot group tried to unionize under the Teamsters. This vote failed.

(4) The Teamsters took Horizon Air to court, claiming that Horizon management had interfered in the election. The court agreed, and a second election was held. This time, the Teamsters won, with about 2/3 of the pilot group voting for unionization.

About ten years ago, there was a semi-serious effort to dump the Teamsters and vote in ALPA. This didn't go anywhere, but was a significant distraction during our 2007-2010 contract negotiations. Another serious issue was the trusteeship. Horizon was originally under Local 747, but was later incorporated into Local 1224 after extensive financial "irregularities" involving Local 747 (the head of the local, NOT a Horizon guy, was later convicted of embezzlement).

Although Horizon Air would seem to have all the necessary ingredients for an active war zone (or long-running soap opera), it's usually a pretty quiet place. The union complains about contract violations, the company management complains about a lack of "communication and trust", and life goes on.

MooneyGuy128
04-15-2018, 08:03 AM
When is the current QX pilot contract good through or become amendable?

snackysmores
04-15-2018, 08:05 AM
When is the current QX pilot contract good through or become amendable?

2024

Filler

MooneyGuy128
04-15-2018, 09:21 AM
Got it, thank you!

2024

Filler

LineGrinder400
04-21-2018, 08:52 PM
In 2016 QX pilots voted overwhelmingly (70/30) in favor of a concessionary contract in the midst of the most profitable year in commercial airline history along with record pilot hiring occurring at the majors. Additionally, the Air Group was in no position to gamble with the stability of their regional feed in any way amongst the growing intrusion of Delta into their one home territory, Sea-Tac. The Air Group was on the defensive and feeling insecure, hence the massive purchase price for VA shortly after.

Hindsight is 20/20, but these facts were clear as day at the time to QX pilots. Union busting fear tactics or not, how their pilot group chose to ignore this incredibly strong bargaining position and give into fear by voting in that embarrassing CBA is beyond me. They had their chance and whiffed and that boat has now sailed for at least 6 more years. Had always thought their many lifers had more spine based on their regional leading contract held post 9/11. But was proven wrong with this vote, and don't see this culture changing until perhaps when most of their many lifers finally retire.

Dashdrvr
04-24-2018, 08:24 PM
I would say does not matter. Look at the Jetstream 31, EMB-110 "Bandit", steam gage Metroliners, etc.

all those dudes paved the way to airlines before

I love my Bandit!



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