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View Full Version : Most Junior CA Base and Equipment


Inop2
03-28-2018, 12:12 PM
Using the last Flow Document dated 7mar18. Base/Equipment/senority #.

Please correct if you see errors. Just trying to bring SOME level of understanding what you could hold in a forced CA upgrade. Are there variables? Will this change?, yes. Just rough guidance for now.

Dallas/ 145 /928
Dallas /175 /1094
Miami /145/1514
New York /145/NH
Chicago /CRJ/1817
Chicago /145 /1869
Chicago /175/1154


NoValueAviator
03-28-2018, 12:16 PM
FO edition?

BeechPilot33
03-28-2018, 12:22 PM
Using the last Flow Document from February. Base/Equipment/senority #.

Please correct if you see errors. Just trying to bring SOME level of understanding what you could hold in a forced CA upgrade. Are there variables? Will this change?, yes. Just rough guidance for now.

Dallas/ 145 /928
Dallas /175 /1094
Miami /145/1514
New York /145/NH
Chicago /CRJ/1817
Chicago /145 /1869
Chicago /175/1154

what is DOH for 1094. Why is the E-Jet junior to the 145


Sheg0theD
03-28-2018, 12:26 PM
what is DOH for 1094. Why is the E-Jet junior to the 145



Itís not most junior DFW EMJ Captain is 1427


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flysooner9
03-28-2018, 01:14 PM
Using the last Flow Document dated 7mar18. Base/Equipment/senority #.

Please correct if you see errors. Just trying to bring SOME level of understanding what you could hold in a forced CA upgrade. Are there variables? Will this change?, yes. Just rough guidance for now.

Dallas/ 145 /928
Dallas /175 /1094
Miami /145/1514
New York /145/NH
Chicago /CRJ/1817
Chicago /145 /1869
Chicago /175/1154

Date of hire would be more helpful then seniority number I believe.

LineUpAndPay
03-28-2018, 05:52 PM
Date of hire would be more helpful then seniority number I believe.

And the actual junior CA, not just the award on the Flow plan from one bid.

lakehouse
03-28-2018, 06:10 PM
It's all so fluid who cares. It'll keep changing non stop. Be ready to be forced to the left seat for endless reserve and abuse.

And because it keeps changing besides lga being most jr, expect non-stop displacements all over the USA.

proskuneho
03-28-2018, 09:08 PM
Does anyone have an idea of about how long "Direct Entry Captains" are sitting reserve? Thanks.

Sheg0theD
03-28-2018, 09:25 PM
Does anyone have an idea of about how long "Direct Entry Captains" are sitting reserve? Thanks.



Insert Sandlot ďFOREVERĒ


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flysooner9
03-28-2018, 09:26 PM
Does anyone have an idea of about how long "Direct Entry Captains" are sitting reserve? Thanks.

Iíd expect around 1.5-2 years

Pedro4President
03-29-2018, 04:17 AM
Does anyone have an idea of about how long "Direct Entry Captains" are sitting reserve? Thanks.

I heard From some guys at the QnA Rick Wilson gave he mentioned it would be very minimal. He said HVAs would be holding a line in LGA right away, transfer to ORD/MIA/DFW in 3/6/12 months respectively.

I'm not saying he is blowing smoke about holding a line right away but the only way he is right is if the line count goes up in LGA and they have to TDY to LGA from somewhere. In ORD last year we went from having more lines than FOs to three FOs to every line. The drastic changes going on around here make it hard to predict anything. Also, AA may hand something down last minute and throw a wrench in RWs plans/predictions like LGA opening back up.

Bruno82
03-29-2018, 06:27 AM
Does anyone know what the interview consists of for DEC?

Inop2
03-29-2018, 07:15 AM
And the actual junior CA, not just the award on the Flow plan from one bid.

Per the flow plan dated 7mar18 these are the most junior CA awards. I believe the union updates our seniority number before the company so It may appear to be errors but are just not company updated seniority numbers. The date of hire was not on the document. The flow plan is available to all: my.envoyair.com - Departments - Flight- Flight Bid & Crew Info. Same area were you can see the monthly bid packets but on the left side of the page in the Bid Crew Information.

Bassman1985
03-29-2018, 07:20 AM
Per the flow plan dated 7mar18 these are the most junior CA awards. I believe the union updates our seniority number before the company so It may appear to be errors but are just not company updated seniority numbers. The date of hire was not on the document. The flow plan is available to all: my.envoyair.com - Departments - Flight- Flight Bid & Crew Info. Same area were you can see the monthly bid packets but on the left side of the page in the Bid Crew Information.

I do believe that the seniority numbers on the flow plan are the same as on the most recent seniority list on the ALPA site. A little cross-referencing should yield the DOH for each.

Inop2
03-29-2018, 07:29 AM
It's all so fluid who cares. It'll keep changing non stop. Be ready to be forced to the left seat for endless reserve and abuse.

And because it keeps changing besides lga being most jr, expect non-stop displacements all over the USA.

I agree itís very fluid and not accurate and I hope that was clear in my OP but I wanted a rough estimate of how long I needed to bid reserve/slow flight time, to hold an aircraft/base.

Bassman1985
03-29-2018, 07:33 AM
Just reviewed Flow Plan 1802 from 07 MAR 2018. Juniormost CA by status, some statuses are more junior than the OP, and those CAs have finished training, such as DCE and DCL.

Status-seniority number-DOH

DCE-1272-09/16
DCL-1094-10/15
OCE-1869-09/17
OCL-1154-04/16
OCC-1817-08/17
MCE-1514-03/17
NCE-New Hire

Total seniority list stands at 2391 as of the 12 MAR 2018 NH class.

Pedro4President
03-29-2018, 07:44 AM
Just reviewed Flow Plan 1802 from 07 MAR 2018. Juniormost CA by status, some statuses are more junior than the OP, and those CAs have finished training, such as DCE and DCL.

Status-seniority number-DOH

DCE-1272-09/16
DCL-1094-10/15
OCE-1869-09/17
OCL-1154-04/16
OCC-1817-08/17
MCE-1514-03/17
NCE-New Hire

Total seniority list stands at 2391 as of the 12 MAR 2018 NH class.

Thanks for this info!

I wonder how these numbers are going to shake out for the next vacancy bid!

I really wish the union was a bit more proactive about getting information out about displacements and preference bidding. There are some guys here that will get screwed by this. Here is a friendly tip: ALWAYS have your displacements filled in COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!! If you have 1000 hours 121 time then you should have 7 CA displacement bids in (ONE BID FOR EACH BASE/EQUIPMENT). Also, feel free to throw in the FO bids in there as well.... You never know. ONLY preference if you absolutely want a position! It MAY be better for you if you can proffer to displace into the position you want.

flysooner9
03-29-2018, 07:48 AM
Does anyone know what the interview consists of for DEC?


Only HR no tech

okayestpilot
03-29-2018, 08:58 AM
Thanks for this info!

I wonder how these numbers are going to shake out for the next vacancy bid!

I really wish the union was a bit more proactive about getting information out about displacements and preference bidding. There are some guys here that will get screwed by this. Here is a friendly tip: ALWAYS have your displacements filled in COMPLETELY!!!!!!!!!!! If you have 1000 hours 121 time then you should have 7 CA displacement bids in (ONE BID FOR EACH BASE/EQUIPMENT). Also, feel free to throw in the FO bids in there as well.... You never know. ONLY preference if you absolutely want a position! It MAY be better for you if you can proffer to displace into the position you want.

The vacancy has been out for a week and not a peep from our union. No surprise there. Id rather get information from them then have to seek others advice on a forum. So for someone who is going to be affected by this vacancy and desperately wants to stay in DFW, is it better to proffer to displace, or just have displacement preferences or to preference a standing bid for DFW and be subject to seat lock if I am awarded it?

go skers
03-29-2018, 09:04 AM
The vacancy has been out for a week and not a peep from our union. No surprise there. Id rather get information from them then have to seek others advice on a forum. So for someone who is going to be affected by this vacancy and desperately wants to stay in DFW, is it better to proffer to displace, or just have displacement preferences or to preference a standing bid for DFW and be subject to seat lock if I am awarded it?

There is a bidding guide that is posted on the ALPA site that includes all the recent forced displacement and proffer to displace techniques. They sent multiple emails with actual examples of how to build your 3P the last two vacancies and will likely do it again when the bid closing date gets near. What additional information are you looking for?

In your case I would probably use displacements with all DFW first followed by airplanes that would get you back to DFW and eliminate any preferences that would cause a seat lock away from DFW. Avoiding the CRJ would be advisable unless you want to roll the dice on a quick displacement

Edit: If you're really junior do everything you can to get into ORD EMB/E75 since that will be a somewhat easier commute and still get you back to DFW when you can hold it

havick206
03-29-2018, 09:10 AM
The vacancy has been out for a week and not a peep from our union. No surprise there. Id rather get information from them then have to seek others advice on a forum. So for someone who is going to be affected by this vacancy and desperately wants to stay in DFW, is it better to proffer to displace, or just have displacement preferences or to preference a standing bid for DFW and be subject to seat lock if I am awarded it?

So is it DFW or bust?

Iím guessing you just reached the uograde hours then.

What aircraft type are you currently flying?

If i were in your shoes i would preference both types for DFW CA, and then proffer to displace the best of the worse **** sandwiches as a commute. At least this way as they go through the bid preferences you may get DFW and if not youíll be displaced and not seat locked.

Pedro4President
03-29-2018, 09:31 AM
The vacancy has been out for a week and not a peep from our union. No surprise there. Id rather get information from them then have to seek others advice on a forum. So for someone who is going to be affected by this vacancy and desperately wants to stay in DFW, is it better to proffer to displace, or just have displacement preferences or to preference a standing bid for DFW and be subject to seat lock if I am awarded it?

The union guide is good for normal displacements and vacancies but this isn't a normal vacancy and displacement. No pilots are prefrencing for a CA position because they are going to get forced to upgrade.

Alright since you give very little details I'll make it general for everyone.

Every single pilot that has or is close to having 1000 needs every CA displacement slot filled.

All FOs that have or close to having 1000 needs ONLY DISPLACEMENT bids in. DO NOT preference to a CA position. (There is no need to if the company is forcing you anyway. Plus you get two extra paid move days if moving bases and you have no seat lock.)

If you are unsure or want to proffer to displace then contact the union and those guys are good about helping people out.

Pit falls:
The preference bids and displacement bids are run completely separately. Many junior LGA CAs are going to want to bid DFW CA as a preference. They will MOST LIKELY be awarded DFW. Subsequently the displacement bids will be run and they will be displaced. Sometimes these guys forget to reevaluate their displacement bids because there are already displaced. These guys will likely end up with NOT ENOUGH BIDS and could possibly end up in Chicago on the CRJ with a long term training event.

havick206
03-29-2018, 10:04 AM
Just remember they first run the preference bids. THEN the proffer for displacements preferences are run with whatever is left over.

Preference what you actually want otherwise someone junior to you might get it if you only proffer to displace.

You will be kicking yourself if you could have held DFW or wherever else you wanted, but instead weíre displaced to LGA, meanwhile someone way junior to you gets DFW because they preferenced DFW but you only proffered to displace.

If youíre super junior and likely to get LGA anyway, then just proffer to displace and donít be away locked.

I would take a seat lock in a different type rather than commute and risk 6-12 months or more in a commuting situation if i could have lived in base. But thatís just me, everyone has different priorities.

Pedro4President
03-29-2018, 06:49 PM
Just remember they first run the preference bids. THEN the proffer for displacements preferences are run with whatever is left over.

Preference what you actually want otherwise someone junior to you might get it if you only proffer to displace.

You will be kicking yourself if you could have held DFW or wherever else you wanted, but instead weíre displaced to LGA, meanwhile someone way junior to you gets DFW because they preferenced DFW but you only proffered to displace.

If youíre super junior and likely to get LGA anyway, then just proffer to displace and donít be away locked.

I would take a seat lock in a different type rather than commute and risk 6-12 months or more in a commuting situation if i could have lived in base. But thatís just me, everyone has different priorities.

That's not how it works. VERY BAD ADVICE!!!

This is how people think it works but get upset when they end up with a displacement. Displacements trump preference. The senior pilot IF displaced will hold DFW and then kick out the junior guy who preference bid DFW.

Example. When NY closed, no pilots needed any preferences because they knew they were getting displaced. All they had were displacement bids in because they knew they were getting displaced.

A DEC entry CA that has finished IOE will need to preference to a new position.

A pilot who is awarded a CA position but has not finished IOE can preference to an FO position and force a new displacement to a CA position.

proskuneho
03-29-2018, 07:09 PM
So are most Direct Entry captains getting forced to LGA? How many hours/month are junior reserve captains flying on average?

Sheg0theD
03-29-2018, 07:18 PM
So are most Direct Entry captains getting forced to LGA? How many hours/month are junior reserve captains flying on average?



All are going to LGA! You will fly maybe 5 days a month if lucky maybe less, maybe more depending on where you fall on the seniority list.


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flysooner9
03-29-2018, 07:20 PM
All are going to LGA! You will fly maybe 5 days a month if lucky maybe less, maybe more depending on where you fall on the seniority list.


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So if your company is so short on captains why are they only flying 5 days a month?

proskuneho
03-29-2018, 07:38 PM
All are going to LGA! You will fly maybe 5 days a month if lucky maybe less, maybe more depending on where you fall on the seniority list.

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That's brutal. The whole point of taking a Direct Entry Captain job at a regional is to fly and earn the PIC time that you had no opportunity for at another carrier.

flysooner9
03-29-2018, 08:02 PM
All are going to LGA! You will fly maybe 5 days a month if lucky maybe less, maybe more depending on where you fall on the seniority list.


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This is not really true if you look at the N6D. Some junior guys are over 70 hours for the month.

Sheg0theD
03-29-2018, 08:10 PM
This is not really true if you look at the N6D. Some junior guys are over 70 hours for the month.



Who? Please do explain... the ones over 70 hours took 50 hours on ioe for the month. Iím over 70 hours but have been on the line since January. You are mistaken my friend.


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Weekendwarrior2
03-29-2018, 09:09 PM
That's not how it works. VERY BAD ADVICE!!!



This is how people think it works but get upset when they end up with a displacement. Displacements trump preference. The senior pilot IF displaced will hold DFW and then kick out the junior guy who preference bid DFW.



Example. When NY closed, no pilots needed any preferences because they knew they were getting displaced. All they had were displacement bids in because they knew they were getting displaced.



A DEC entry CA that has finished IOE will need to preference to a new position.



A pilot who is awarded a CA position but has not finished IOE can preference to an FO position and force a new displacement to a CA position.



If someone preferences a seat thatís going to be awarded first before their displacement preference.

MikeTang
03-29-2018, 09:25 PM
If someone preferences a seat thatís going to be awarded first before their displacement preference.Pedro should be correct here. When you are diplaced, you can go anywhere your seniority can hold. So the junior guy that preference bid DCL for example (and temporary awarded it) will still end up being kicked out by the more senior guy that was displaced.

A Sr guy will always bump the Jr guy.

The only way a Jr guy will get to keep that preference is if they don't actually displace anybody senior to him. Since we know every eligible FO WILL be displaced, this shouldn't happen.

It seems we are in uncharted bidding territory here and have to throw all the traditional bidding strategies out the window.

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Pedro4President
03-30-2018, 02:54 AM
If someone preferences a seat thatís going to be awarded first before their displacement preference.

Displaced pilots will ALWAYS be able to hold their seniority. If a pilot is displaced they can go to any position their seniority can hold. All the preference bids will be awarded on "paper." Then the displacement bids will bump/kick/remove//displace a junior pilot in that position.

And yes MT we are in uncharted territory. I wish people would know what's going on and the pitfalls of bidding certain ways. I think most people don't understand how displacements are going to work.

Pat2389
03-30-2018, 05:37 AM
Sorry if this has been answered...

If I pref bid something and get it, but also displacement bid it, which will it run as? I know I saw it runs the pref first but then got confused by some of the replies.

Just asking mostly for seat lock reasons

Pedro4President
03-30-2018, 05:51 AM
Sorry if this has been answered...

If I pref bid something and get it, but also displacement bid it, which will it run as? I know I saw it runs the pref first but then got confused by some of the replies.

Just asking mostly for seat lock reasons

Awarded as a preference.

Since the pref is run first you will get your pref bid. They only look at your displacement bids if you get displaced.

That's why I suggest bidding into a position you know you can hold and be immediately displaced from.

moon
03-30-2018, 07:07 AM
Awarded as a preference.

Since the pref is run first you will get your pref bid. They only look at your displacement bids if you get displaced.

That's why I suggest bidding into a position you know you can hold and be immediately displaced from.

A strong union would come out and tell everyone to do as Pedro says in order to force the companies hand. No one seat locked would create so many headaches for the company. But apparently that's not what we have. This is the contract we have. Use it to your benefit.

havick206
03-30-2018, 07:30 AM
A strong union would come out and tell everyone to do as Pedro says in order to force the companies hand. No one seat locked would create so many headaches for the company. But apparently that's not what we have. This is the contract we have. Use it to your benefit.

So what happens if you donít preference something and then displacements donít go as high this time?

moon
03-30-2018, 07:48 AM
So what happens if you donít preference something and then displacements donít go as high this time?

Proffers to displace goes in seniority order. But still no seat lock

babs
03-30-2018, 09:00 AM
So what happens if you donít preference something and then displacements donít go as high this time?

I would put money on them getting everyone with 1000 hours just like they did last time. I wouldnít even bother with preferences if this is your initial upgrade. Just make sure your displacement preferences are exactly how you want them. If you are really worried about it then proffer to displace but donít preference to avoid the seat lock and training freeze.

Pedro4President
03-30-2018, 09:31 AM
So what happens if you donít preference something and then displacements donít go as high this time?

So this is a real concern. It's sometimes hard to know IF you will get displaced. So if you have been awarded a CA position AND not completed Fed ride then You can preference FO and then displace from FO to any position you can hold.

If you have finished Fed ride then all you can do is proffer to displace OR preference bid. This is the scenario I think you were trying to convey in your earlier post. And yes in this scenario you could end up kicking yourself for not preference bidding a position and only proffering to displace.

Pedro4President
03-30-2018, 09:36 AM
A strong union would come out and tell everyone to do as Pedro says in order to force the companies hand. No one seat locked would create so many headaches for the company. But apparently that's not what we have. This is the contract we have. Use it to your benefit.

I think the union may get in trouble if they advised these tactics. I wish the union and company would find a solution to this issue before it gets crazy. This type of bidding hurts everyone involved. The union has warned the company that the issues that it could face with the constant displacements. A pilot group can not consistently face displacements every three months.

I have a feeling that this one or the next vacancy is going to get cancelled and rerun after the company and union come up with an LOA. The more screwed up this bid becomes the more likey it will get rerun.