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View Full Version : Is it worth stay for training?


Midget
04-02-2018, 08:08 AM
With so much uncertainty, reserve at LGA, slow flow, etc, is it worth start training just to be miserable after IOE when there are many opportunities at other regionals?


flysooner9
04-02-2018, 08:35 AM
Thatís for you to decide.

ag386
04-02-2018, 10:46 AM
With so much uncertainty, reserve at LGA, slow flow, etc, is it worth start training just to be miserable after IOE when there are many opportunities at other regionals?

You must have missed the memo by recruiting. Flow now at 5 years from date of hire. Don't believe me? Just email and ask them.


Midget
04-02-2018, 11:17 AM
You must have missed the memo by recruiting. Flow now at 5 years from date of hire. Don't believe me? Just email and ask them.

Yeah thatís what they say but why so many here say itís actually more like 7+ years?

f16jetmech
04-02-2018, 11:33 AM
Yeah I'm really confused how they're coming up with this

rickair7777
04-02-2018, 12:34 PM
Are they counting probation year as "training"?

FO Candidate
04-02-2018, 01:51 PM
Everyone here keeps saying 5 years isn't realistic, 7-8 seems more the case. That you can get in a major much earlier than that.

Midget
04-02-2018, 02:12 PM
You must have missed the memo by recruiting. Flow now at 5 years from date of hire. Don't believe me? Just email and ask them.

Itís been very discouraging.

Bruh
04-02-2018, 08:12 PM
Everyone here keeps saying 5 years isn't realistic, 7-8 seems more the case ... you can get in a major much earlier than that.

Iím transitioning from military to the airlines, so pardon my ignorance. In the case of Envoy, or any other regional, if a pilot wanted to get hired by a major could he just keep applying to the majors (while flying for a regional) rather than waiting for his turn to flow-through? Or, is there something special about waiting for flow-through?

DanRoman
04-03-2018, 02:57 AM
Iím transitioning from military to the airlines, so pardon my ignorance. In the case of Envoy, or any other regional, if a pilot wanted to get hired by a major could he just keep applying to the majors (while flying for a regional) rather than waiting for his turn to flow-through? Or, is there something special about waiting for flow-through?

Thereís nothing special about waiting and you should most certainly be applying outside the flow. The reality is that, despite what most people like to post, that call from the majors isnít a guarantee. There are plenty of very experienced regional captains that can attest to that. I always get a kick out of the twenty-somethingís fresh off flight instructing that act like itís below them to have to wait 5-8 years for a guaranteed job at AA. At the end of the day the flow should never be plan A, or maybe even plan B, but it sure is a nice plan C to have in your back pocket.

BohicaAlpa
04-03-2018, 06:19 AM
I would not stay at Envoy. Thereís much better places you could go

Dekal5
04-03-2018, 07:03 AM
I would not stay at Envoy. Thereís much better places you could go

Be free! ;)

TalkTurkey
04-03-2018, 10:28 AM
With so much uncertainty, reserve at LGA, slow flow, etc, is it worth start training just to be miserable after IOE when there are many opportunities at other regionals?

I never thought there was such things as dumb questions. No offense but you've answered yourself a billion times over.

TalkTurkey
04-03-2018, 10:29 AM
Iím transitioning from military to the airlines, so pardon my ignorance. In the case of Envoy, or any other regional, if a pilot wanted to get hired by a major could he just keep applying to the majors (while flying for a regional) rather than waiting for his turn to flow-through? Or, is there something special about waiting for flow-through?

If you're a military aviator, there is no place for you at the regionals, sir. Go directly to the big three.

Pedro4President
04-03-2018, 01:16 PM
With so much uncertainty, reserve at LGA, slow flow, etc, is it worth start training just to be miserable after IOE when there are many opportunities at other regionals?

I'm not sure what uncertainty you are talking about? Reserve at LGA isn't going to get any shorter than it currently stands. Although It's short lived it still is going to be painful.

There are better options right now than Envoy for most people. There are about 3-5 other airlines I'd go to before Envoy if I was a NH and single. Being in my current situation I'd still stick with Envoy if I was a NH. Without knowing where you live it's hard to determine which option is best for you. Good luck.

SkylineAviation
04-03-2018, 01:29 PM
I'm not sure what uncertainty you are talking about? Reserve at LGA isn't going to get any shorter than it currently stands. Although It's short lived it still is going to be painful.

There are better options right now than Envoy for most people. There are about 3-5 other airlines I'd go to before Envoy if I was a NH and single. Being in my current situation I'd still stick with Envoy if I was a NH. Without knowing where you live it's hard to determine which option is best for you. Good luck.

3-5 as a NH non HVA? ok let's hear them, I'm curious

LineUpAndPay
04-03-2018, 01:54 PM
3-5 as a NH non HVA? ok let's hear them, I'm curious

1. Mesa
2. CommutAir
3. Silver Airways
4. GoJet
5. ExpressJet

Check and mate.

Midget
04-03-2018, 04:09 PM
Whatís your opinion on CommutAir?

Pedro4President
04-03-2018, 04:22 PM
3-5 as a NH non HVA? ok let's hear them, I'm curious

Endeavor, RAH, PSA. Air Wisconsin is a maybe but I'd have to look into them a bit more.

All get paid more with hard/soft pay. QOL is better as well.

SkylineAviation
04-03-2018, 04:43 PM
1. Mesa
2. CommutAir
3. Silver Airways
4. GoJet
5. ExpressJet

Check and mate.

haha! nice!

and let's just agree that the 3-5 statement is an exaggeration Pedro

Excargodog
04-03-2018, 05:07 PM
Iím transitioning from military to the airlines, so pardon my ignorance. In the case of Envoy, or any other regional, if a pilot wanted to get hired by a major could he just keep applying to the majors (while flying for a regional) rather than waiting for his turn to flow-through? Or, is there something special about waiting for flow-through?

Mandatory age related retirements at the legacy airlines will generally increase from their already high levels every year until they peak in 2022-2023. Anyone NOT applying to those airlines as soon as they have those airlines current minimums (or even a little less) and placidly waiting for seven (or even five) years for flow to take them there is AT BEST going to be years of seniority behind smarter people who hustle, assuming the legacies then aren't so bewildered by the person's lack of motivation they don't refuse to take him at all.

Get what you need to be competitive wherever you can with as little cost to your QOL as possible and move on.

Bruh
04-03-2018, 05:52 PM
Thereís nothing special about waiting and you should most certainly be applying outside the flow. The reality is that, despite what most people like to post, that call from the majors isnít a guarantee. There are plenty of very experienced regional captains that can attest to that. I always get a kick out of the twenty-somethingís fresh off flight instructing that act like itís below them to have to wait 5-8 years for a guaranteed job at AA. At the end of the day the flow should never be plan A, or maybe even plan B, but it sure is a nice plan C to have in your back pocket.

Thanks for the clarification.

Bruh
04-03-2018, 05:56 PM
If you're a military aviator, there is no place for you at the regionals, sir. Go directly to the big three.

I wish I could, but with only 1300 hours (650 PIC) in the C-17 and the rest of my time in RPAs (MQ-1s & MQ-9s), I simply don't have enough time to be competitive for the majors. So I'm gonna fly with you champs in the regionals and learn the 121 game with the hopes of advancing from there.

Bruh
04-03-2018, 06:02 PM
Mandatory age related retirements at the legacy airlines will generally increase from their already high levels every year until they peak in 2022-2023. Anyone NOT applying to those airlines as soon as they have those airlines current minimums (or even a little less) and placidly waiting for seven (or even five) years for flow to take them there is AT BEST going to be years of seniority behind smarter people who hustle, assuming the legacies then aren't so bewildered by the person's lack of motivation they don't refuse to take him at all.

Get what you need to be competitive wherever you can with as little cost to your QOL as possible and move on.

Man that's music to my hears - good timing sure is a beautiful thing.

AHTTD
04-03-2018, 07:06 PM
Bruh,

Have you considered contracting?. L3/CAT in Iraq/'Stan?.

60 on 60 off. MUCH ... MUCH (!) better pay. Plus PIC time is quick.

Kinda wish I had.

FWIW, I'm retired mil and an Envoy man ...

Bruh
04-03-2018, 07:40 PM
Have you considered contracting?. L3/CAT in Iraq/'Stan?.

60 on 60 off. MUCH ... MUCH (!) better pay. Plus PIC time is quick.

Kinda wish I had.

FWIW, I'm retired mil and an Envoy man ...

I have, but only for drones, not for any kind of manned gig. Do you think a contracting stint would be better than your current position at Envoy or some other regional?

Also, I’d love to hear about your experience at Envoy and whether or not you’d recommend I follow your footsteps. Feel free to PM me in the event you don’t wanna broadcast to all of cyberspace :)

Pilotman7700
04-03-2018, 07:48 PM
Yeah thatís what they say but why so many here say itís actually more like 7+ years?

I see so many people complain about the current flow time and they say that recruiting is full of crap for what they are telling potential new hires. Am I just naive for slightly believing the recruiters? As those higher numbers of mandatory retirements at AA start to pick up, the flow timeline should start decreasing in theory right? When they come up with these numbers I would imagine that they are considering all statistics on pilot loss and movement for the next 5, 10, maybe even 20+ years. I do get it though, I'm not naive enough to rely solely on the flow. I'm sure I'll be applying once I feel ready and I get the required minimums for potential majors.

YLpilot
04-03-2018, 07:56 PM
Whatís your opinion on CommutAir?

I hate to talk poorly about an old employer but it was an operational dumpster fire. PM me if you want to know details.

highfarfast
04-04-2018, 04:15 AM
I see so many people complain about the current flow time and they say that recruiting is full of crap for what they are telling potential new hires. Am I just naive for slightly believing the recruiters? As those higher numbers of mandatory retirements at AA start to pick up, the flow timeline should start decreasing in theory right? When they come up with these numbers I would imagine that they are considering all statistics on pilot loss and movement for the next 5, 10, maybe even 20+ years. I do get it though, I'm not naive enough to rely solely on the flow. I'm sure I'll be applying once I feel ready and I get the required minimums for potential majors.

This has been rehashed several times. What are the recruiters telling you?

SoFloFlyer
04-04-2018, 07:24 AM
Hey everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I donít mean to hijack the thread, but didnít feel it was necessary to start a completely separate thread for this question.

Iím close to finishing up school and becoming eligible for the cadet program. The top two choices are Envoy and Republic. Mainly for their MIA base. Equipment isnít as important as QOL since Iím married and volunteer in the community.

Before I get attacked for wanting to come to Envoy and become a cadet, hereís my reasoning. Iíd like to be a cadet is because Iíd get first pick at equipment (who knows, maybe the 175 will be in MIA by the time I go in for NH class?), MIA base, and itís nice knowing I donít have to interview again. Having flow isnít a bad deal either. Whether 5 year or 10 years, I made peace with being a regional for close to a decade no matter where I go.

Any advice would be great on whether I should commit to the cadet program would be great.

havick206
04-04-2018, 07:36 AM
Hey everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. I donít mean to hijack the thread, but didnít feel it was necessary to start a completely separate thread for this question.

Iím close to finishing up school and becoming eligible for the cadet program. The top two choices are Envoy and Republic. Mainly for their MIA base. Equipment isnít as important as QOL since Iím married and volunteer in the community.

Before I get attacked for wanting to come to Envoy and become a cadet, hereís my reasoning. Iíd like to be a cadet is because Iíd get first pick at equipment (who knows, maybe the 175 will be in MIA by the time I go in for NH class?), MIA base, and itís nice knowing I donít have to interview again. Having flow isnít a bad deal either. Whether 5 year or 10 years, I made peace with being a regional for close to a decade no matter where I go.

Any advice would be great on whether I should commit to the cadet program would be great.

Envoy is not without its faults, however for a new pilot/cadet that wants to eventually be MIA based then Envoy is a good option.

Thereís rumors that Envoy will be taking some of republics flying back and putting some of our own 175ís in MIA, in addition to the expansion of 145 flying. These are simply rumors so read into that what you will.

Bigpimppilot
04-04-2018, 07:37 AM
Respectfully I think your looking at it all wrong. Bases open and close all the time. Equipment levels also change all the time. Donít pick an airline you may be at for the rest of your career based on that. Look at the best contract and how management honors their word. If your only criteria for an airline could change next month then youíll be setting yourself up for disappointment. One last thought. Just like when renting a new apartment or a new housing development make the calculation based on what there is not on a promise of what will be

havick206
04-04-2018, 07:40 AM
Respectfully I think your looking at it all wrong. Bases open and close all the time. Equipment levels also change all the time. Donít pick an airline you may be at for the rest of your career based on that. Look at the best contract and how management honors their word. If your only criteria for an airline could change next month then youíll be setting yourself up for disappointment. One last thought. Just like when renting a new apartment or a new housing development make the calculation based on what there is not on a promise of what will be

Fact, Envoy is in MIA and expanding and has a shorter time to be based there.

If he wants to drive to work which is pretty much the only common advice on here what other option does he have?

flysooner9
04-04-2018, 07:59 AM
Keep in mind todayís bottom regional will likely be tomorrowís top tier regional. Itís been a common cycle the last few years and Iíd expect it to continue.

Wasnít long ago nobody wanted to go to 9E or Republic.

Bigpimppilot
04-04-2018, 08:27 AM
Fact, Envoy is in MIA and expanding and has a shorter time to be based there.

If he wants to drive to work which is pretty much the only common advice on here what other option does he have?


My impression is that soflo is married to the location and may only have 200 hrs total time. Iím reminding him that bases and equipment are transitory and that in the next year or 2 anything can happen. May not be a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket and take the money now because who knows what the landscape will look like when he gets into training.

Pedro4President
04-04-2018, 09:48 AM
My impression is that soflo is married to the location and may only have 200 hrs total time. Iím reminding him that bases and equipment are transitory and that in the next year or 2 anything can happen. May not be a good idea to put all your eggs in one basket and take the money now because who knows what the landscape will look like when he gets into training.

I'm pretty sure base options are in the top three of reasons why people choose an airline. If you go based off your logic then no regional airline would be good to go to. Every one was talking about how Endeavor was paying the bonuses only to keep people here while they close the doors. RAH was going bankrupt and the TA was going to get gutted. RAH had a 💩 contract when I started here four years ago. Looking forward anything can happen as you stated. However, what is likely to happen? Envoy grows in Miami and RAH shrinks and leaves MIA.

There aren't many times where I think Envoy is not the best option but in this case I think it is or at least one of the top options. Driving to base is fantastic!

Bigpimppilot
04-04-2018, 10:51 AM
We will see

SoFloFlyer
04-04-2018, 12:31 PM
Thanks for the reply thus far! Driving to work would be the best thing really. The wife does not want to move out of MIA. I tried talking her into moving to NY so my stint at LGA wouldn't be so bad, but she doesn't want to uproot what we have here and I don't blame her.

I'd prefer the 175, but if 145 would get me MIA and thus a decent QOL then I'll do it.

Keep the replies coming, I appreciate it, gents!

havick206
04-04-2018, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the reply thus far! Driving to work would be the best thing really. The wife does not want to move out of MIA. I tried talking her into moving to NY so my stint at LGA wouldn't be so bad, but she doesn't want to uproot what we have here and I don't blame her.

I'd prefer the 175, but if 145 would get me MIA and thus a decent QOL then I'll do it.

Keep the replies coming, I appreciate it, gents!

Keep in mind it could take anywhere from 3-12 months to actually end up at Miami after you start unless you are awarded it in Indoc which is unlikely so be prepared to commute for a little bit.

Pilotman7700
04-04-2018, 12:47 PM
This has been rehashed several times. What are the recruiters telling you?

I was told 6 years. Which still seems too high to not at least try to get to a major but at this point I'd be happy staying at Envoy for next 10 years in comparison to how my quality of life has been for the past 10.

SoFloFlyer
04-04-2018, 01:01 PM
Keep in mind it could take anywhere from 3-12 months to actually end up at Miami after you start unless you are awarded it in Indoc which is unlikely so be prepared to commute for a little bit.

A friend of mine said the same thing. I'm okay with that as long as I eventually end up back in MIA. I understand that this industry is about paying dues.

NoValueAviator
04-04-2018, 02:13 PM
I'd bail if I hadn't made the commitments I made. Probably to Compass or Republic. That said, I wouldn't (and didn't) leave after showing up for training. While Envoy might be one of the worst regionals to work for as a new hire right now, it could be one of the best to work for in a year. Or tomorrow. Who knows.

highfarfast
04-04-2018, 02:17 PM
I was told 6 years. Which still seems too high to not at least try to get to a major but at this point I'd be happy staying at Envoy for next 10 years in comparison to how my quality of life has been for the past 10.

In reality, flow will be higher than that for a new hire today. Union projection is 9 years. Some will say it will be less than that but so far the union's projections have been more conservative than reality. For what it's worth, they told me 5.5 years when I was hired. Union projection for me is closer to 6.5 years from the date I was hired and that's an increase from what it was when I was hired.

FWIW, I did not come to Envoy for the flow. I suggest you think in the same terms. Throw flow out the window and then decide where's best for you (unless you NEED flow because of lack of degree or some skeletons). All the airlines will be hurting for pilots in the coming years and will be hiring. There are those that say "you never know what happens and if there's another 9/11 or whatever..." but really, if there's something like that, flow will come to a halt too.

ViperCrosswind
04-04-2018, 03:25 PM
If you're a military aviator, there is no place for you at the regionals, sir. Go directly to the big three.

Wildly inaccurate. I fly military, and have several friends who do as well. We need regional experience just like everyone else. The myth that military guys get hired is untrue.

Case in point - I know an F16 instructor with 2.5k hours (thatís a lot these days folks) get told by United 6-9 months ago he needed more hours to be competitive.

amcnd
04-04-2018, 04:16 PM
All i can say. Is stick with it. 4,5,even 9 years. It will be worth it. I left. And sort of regret it now.. I was a 99í hire. Left after 9/11. But now after the ďlost decadeĒ im trying to get on a major. Had i stuck it out i would have flowed after 17 years. So 5-9 years seems reasonable...