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View Full Version : How Do I Get To Alaska?


SnowmanKiller
04-04-2018, 07:04 AM
Mil pilot looking to get out and get an ATP, hours in a regional. My goal is get into a PNW regional (Preferably Compass or Horizon) and stay there until I am competitive for either Alaska or Delta. I am trying to move to Seattle.

I understand every place has its issues, but a Major is a Major is a Major. Especially if I'm on the outside wanting to be on the inside.

I met with a career counselor and he advised that once I get into a regional I make captain as quickly as possible and then obtain 1000 hours TPIC as captain ASAP. At that point majors MIGHT start to look at me. I am 27, and I suspect I may be spending anywhere from 10 to 25 years before getting called by a major.

Assuming I can get into a regional, what can I do once I am there to improve my chances and make myself more competitive for Alaska?

Ho Do I Get To Alaska?


Moose
04-04-2018, 07:59 AM
What are you flying in the military? Qual and hours?

French3Holer
04-04-2018, 08:07 AM
There is weekly service to Alaska. Recommend booking here: Alaska State Ferry | Alaska Marine Highway System (http://www.dot.state.ak.us/amhs/)

Couldn't resist, sorry.


SkyHigh
04-04-2018, 08:47 AM
This career is such a massive investment of one's life.

The OP wrote "I suspect I may be spending anywhere from 10 to 25 years before getting called by a major."

Why do we do this to ourselves? The pay isn't even all that great anymore. The lifestyle is hard. Imagine if it took several decades to become a dentist. It's no wonder the young are choosing away from this career.

It is my dream to work for AS too and blew two of the best decades of my life in the effort. Every day I imagine how things would have worked out if I had spent as much effort and devotion in an arena that actually had a chance of producing a meaningful return.

Skyhigh

Pogey Bait
04-04-2018, 09:05 AM
It really depends on where you start from.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Seattle-Tacoma+International+Airport+(SEA),+17801+Internat ional+Blvd,+Seattle,+WA+98158/Anchorage,+AK/@55.3903161,-135.5906723,3z/data=!4m8!4m7!1m2!1m1!1s0x5490435542eafefd:0x99d3d 9c4c7dc37b7!1m2!1m1!1s0x56c8917604b33f41:0x257dba5 aa78468e3!3e0

Are you planning on driving, training it, walking, or biking. These should also be factors to think about when trying to go to Alaska.

Ispeakjive
04-04-2018, 09:40 AM
Mil pilot looking to get out and get an ATP, hours in a regional. My goal is get into a PNW regional (Preferably Compass or Horizon) and stay there until I am competitive for either Alaska or Delta. I am trying to move to Seattle.

I understand every place has its issues, but a Major is a Major is a Major. Especially if I'm on the outside wanting to be on the inside.

I met with a career counselor and he advised that once I get into a regional I make captain as quickly as possible and then obtain 1000 hours TPIC as captain ASAP. At that point majors MIGHT start to look at me. I am 27, and I suspect I may be spending anywhere from 10 to 25 years before getting called by a major.

Assuming I can get into a regional, what can I do once I am there to improve my chances and make myself more competitive for Alaska?

Ho Do I Get To Alaska?

Be more specific. What are you flying now? Active, guard or reserve?
1000 tpic in a regional is not important if you've got that from the mil.

A major is not a major is not a major.

flysnoopy76
04-04-2018, 10:01 AM
If your image of a major is AA, Delta, United or Southwest, then youíll find that other than flying 737 and Airbus, Alaska is far from a major airline, from the pilotís perspective.

SnowmanKiller
04-04-2018, 10:13 AM
[QUOTE=Ispeakjive;2564837]Be more specific. What are you flying now? Active, guard or reserve?
1000 tpic in a regional is not important if you've got that from the mil.

I have just over 800 hours in the T-34, T-44, and E-6B. Most of my time would be considered SIC - I didn't sign for the jet too often.

All active duty.

Klsytakesit
04-04-2018, 10:22 AM
Not enough info. What is your total time including military flight time? What Aircraft are you currently flying? ie fighter/transport. Can you get a guard slot/ reserve and continue accruing military flight time? Skywest is a solid airline to start out at. Compass is less stable but still reputable. Horizon is very unstable at this point. If you already meet 121 Captain requirements then Horizon has very short upgrade times right now.

Warhawg01
04-04-2018, 10:23 AM
How are you active duty, but getting out at 27?

HercDriver130
04-04-2018, 10:28 AM
This career is such a massive investment of one's life.

The OP wrote "I suspect I may be spending anywhere from 10 to 25 years before getting called by a major."

Why do we do this to ourselves? The pay isn't even all that great anymore. The lifestyle is hard. Imagine if it took several decades to become a dentist. It's no wonder the young are choosing away from this career.

It is my dream to work for AS too and blew two of the best decades of my life in the effort. Every day I imagine how things would have worked out if I had spent as much effort and devotion in an arena that actually had a chance of producing a meaningful return.

Skyhigh

Good god man this is the best hiring environment probably ever for airlines in this country. Pay isnt great.... define great.... the reality is sky... you just didnt have it... and the life took shots at you... and didnt hand it to you... boo freaking hoo.... There are 30 year old CAs at my company this year who will make well north of 200k this year... with no OT...... pfft.. the naysayer still boo hoo(ing) good lord...

Packrat
04-04-2018, 10:57 AM
The E-6B is the Navy version of the 707 with CFM engines. VQ squadrons, mostly submarine command and control.

full of luv
04-04-2018, 04:10 PM
How are you active duty, but getting out at 27?

This story so far reeks of being "separated" from active duty without much chance of getting into the reserves.....:eek:

galaxy flyer
04-04-2018, 04:14 PM
Thatís exactly what I was thinking.

To the OP, youíll need 1500 hours for the ATP to fly for a regional, stay in, get the time.

GF

waterboy
04-04-2018, 04:46 PM
Thatís exactly what I was thinking.

To the OP, youíll need 1500 hours for the ATP to fly for a regional, stay in, get the time.

GF

Can he/she not get on with a restricted ATP?

rickair7777
04-04-2018, 05:07 PM
That’s exactly what I was thinking.

To the OP, you’ll need 1500 hours for the ATP to fly for a regional, stay in, get the time.

GF

He can get the mil R-ATP with 750.

Be advised, if there is an adverse separation, most regionals won't care as long as you have an honorable (or maybe even a general), but the best majors will care a lot, and will recognize an unusual mil timeline or DD214 separation code. The AA wholly-owned regionals with flow might be the way to go, if you get in under the wire there.

galaxy flyer
04-05-2018, 07:29 AM
I too old to think in R-ATP terms :D

GF

SnowmanKiller
04-16-2018, 10:26 AM
I've been gone a bit - sorry!

I couldn't air refuel which is why I'm getting out. I could fly the plane just fine for everything else. Expecting an honorable discharge. Not an adverse DD214 code. I figure my mil timeline will put me at a disadvantage for majors.

To put the thread back towards my question - IF I am able to get with a regional, I understand my goal is to upgrade to captain and get that TPIC. Besides getting TPIC, what else can I do? Are there leadership opportunities I can pursue that don't take me out of the cockpit?

DelTacoBowl
04-16-2018, 10:50 AM
Well don't say that in your interview.....

"I split with active duty due to irreconcilable differences."

Regionals might not care now due to desperation, but any major hiring board is going to look at that with serious curiosity. Go get as many checkrides as possible between your military career and your major airline interview.

I've been gone a bit - sorry!

I couldn't air refuel which is why I'm getting out. I could fly the plane just fine for everything else. Expecting an honorable discharge. Not an adverse DD214 code. I figure my mil timeline will put me at a disadvantage for majors.

To put the thread back towards my question - IF I am able to get with a regional, I understand my goal is to upgrade to captain and get that TPIC. Besides getting TPIC, what else can I do? Are there leadership opportunities I can pursue that don't take me out of the cockpit?

rickair7777
04-16-2018, 11:18 AM
I've been gone a bit - sorry!

I couldn't air refuel which is why I'm getting out. I could fly the plane just fine for everything else. Expecting an honorable discharge. Not an adverse DD214 code. I figure my mil timeline will put me at a disadvantage for majors.

To put the thread back towards my question - IF I am able to get with a regional, I understand my goal is to upgrade to captain and get that TPIC. Besides getting TPIC, what else can I do? Are there leadership opportunities I can pursue that don't take me out of the cockpit?

You'll have no trouble with most regionals, AA regionals with flow *might* scrutinize you a bit more carefully.

If you get to keep your mil wings, then some quality time at the regionals should fix you up just fine, and you should still catch the peak of the hiring wave. If they pulled your wings it will be a little tougher, just due to perceptions.

Plan on upgrading at a regional, and try to get a check airman slot. Best way to do that is to get into the training dept ASAP as an FO (you'll want to have a clean training record at that airline too). Once in the training dept, you're known to management and will have an obvious advantage when applying for check airman and sim jobs. Regionals now tend to use FO's for ground instructors, so if you wait until you upgrade you won't have an obvious way to break into the training dept.

Other ways to stand out are to volunteer for test programs (software, etc), volunteer for union jobs or things like HIMS, run for union leadership jobs. Anything above and beyond just flying the line. You can also of course volunteer outside of the company... leadership is better of course (ie BoD for the nonprofit vice ladling soup once a week).

Expect to be at a regional 3-4 years, not 10+.

HangOn
04-16-2018, 11:21 AM
I've been gone a bit - sorry!

I couldn't air refuel which is why I'm getting out. I could fly the plane just fine for everything else. Expecting an honorable discharge. Not an adverse DD214 code. I figure my mil timeline will put me at a disadvantage for majors.

To put the thread back towards my question - IF I am able to get with a regional, I understand my goal is to upgrade to captain and get that TPIC. Besides getting TPIC, what else can I do? Are there leadership opportunities I can pursue that don't take me out of the cockpit?

Sounds like you went to a FEB?

If so, you need to somehow get on with a regional and try to hide that in the chaff, as previously advised..

Doesnít the AF need staff officers?

AltoCumulus
04-16-2018, 11:32 AM
All of the above being said, I wouldnít wait around to get those boxes checked before you applied to Alaska. Management wonít say it but they know the pecking order of airlines and they know they are not the top. At 2nd tier airlines, if you look TOO perfect it might delay you getting on. If you look too perfect they might be worried you will jump to Delta or FedEx the first chance you got. With your blemish, they know they got you for at least a little while.

Good luck

HangOn
04-16-2018, 03:18 PM
All of the above being said, I wouldnít wait around to get those boxes checked before you applied to Alaska. Management wonít say it but they know the pecking order of airlines and they know they are not the top. At 2nd tier airlines, if you look TOO perfect it might delay you getting on. If you look too perfect they might be worried you will jump to Delta or FedEx the first chance you got. With your blemish, they know they got you for at least a little while.

Good luck

Good point....

HangOn
04-16-2018, 03:28 PM
All of the above being said, I wouldnít wait around to get those boxes checked before you applied to Alaska. Management wonít say it but they know the pecking order of airlines and they know they are not the top. At 2nd tier airlines, if you look TOO perfect it might delay you getting on. If you look too perfect they might be worried you will jump to Delta or FedEx the first chance you got. With your blemish, they know they got you for at least a little while.

Good luck

Good point....

newpilotusa
04-16-2018, 05:24 PM
I've been reading that blemishes on your record could, in a way, help you get on at Alaska because then they think you can't leave to get on at one of the top tier airlines. So, how would Alaska look at multiple checkride failures? Is that a blemish that would help you get on or negate you from getting hired?

Ispeakjive
04-16-2018, 07:56 PM
Sounds like you went to a FEB?

If so, you need to somehow get on with a regional and try to hide that in the chaff, as previously advised..

Doesnít the AF need staff officers?

By "hide in the chaff" I'm sure you are not implying for him to mislead.
Find a consulting service/interview prep that will tell how to best couch your issue. If flying formation at night wasn't your thing, and you've got positive endorsements in all other things from your Commanding Officer, the regionals wont hold it against you. Several years of no other issues, and you'll be in great shape for AK, and good shape for an actual major?

Reactivity
04-17-2018, 01:20 AM
So, how would Alaska look at multiple checkride failures? Is that a blemish that would help you get on or negate you from getting hired?

Multiple checkride failures are the reason we have PRIA now and they certainly don't bode well for your future training experiences, so I wouldn't expect that to be helpful.

KnockKnock
04-17-2018, 06:55 AM
In all cases above, why not just apply and see if you get the call? Seems fruitless to worry about whether or not youíre hireable if you donít apply. Also, if you do get the call, donít ever try and hide your past mistakes. Fall on your sword and tell the panel what you learned from the situation. If caught lying, your done and they already know all the answers to those questions before you walk in the door. Good luck to all!

rickair7777
04-17-2018, 07:33 AM
I've been reading that blemishes on your record could, in a way, help you get on at Alaska because then they think you can't leave to get on at one of the top tier airlines. So, how would Alaska look at multiple checkride failures? Is that a blemish that would help you get on or negate you from getting hired?

Maybe with some ULCC's. Not sure where AS stands on that.

A lot of this has to do with what checkrides, how long ago, and what's happened since. A couple GA busts followed by ten years trouble-free years and multiple 121/135 type ratings should not be a big deal for most majors.

Several recent busts without much good history between them and you will probably need some time and trouble-free experience to overcome.

A sustained pattern of busts at all levels throughout your career does not bode well at all for most or all majors.

SkyHigh
04-27-2018, 07:38 AM
Good god man this is the best hiring environment probably ever for airlines in this country. Pay isnt great.... define great.... the reality is sky... you just didnt have it... and the life took shots at you... and didnt hand it to you... boo freaking hoo.... There are 30 year old CAs at my company this year who will make well north of 200k this year... with no OT...... pfft.. the naysayer still boo hoo(ing) good lord...

Herc,

At present, I am taking my older kids to tour trade schools. The welding school reported that they had a graduate last year who made $160,000 in his first six months (20 years old). There are a lot of careers that one can choose these days that can match legacy airline wages without the huge cost in cash to become trained and educated nor the decade or two of sacrifice.

Just saying, that even the rosiest of airline outcomes is facing strong competition from fairly pedestrian careers. Pilots seem to live in a bubble. Often we don't stop to consider the opportunity cost of the lives we are choosing. Why do we put ourselves through this? 10-25 years to reach a position that can support a family is not great.

Real Estate is crushing it right now too.

Its great to encounter you again by the way. :)

Skyhigh

bizzlepilot
04-27-2018, 04:53 PM
I have two friends who couldn't air refuel to save their lives. Never busted a check ride but they couldn't upgrade either, languishing in copilot hell.

One is at a major now and loving life. Not much air refueling in fifi or guppy.

Keep pressing on, you can make it if your record isn't spotted with failures. If you did bust evals, then hope you can get a regional gig (I'm not sure how they look at busts, I've gotta think they are slightly more accepting than the majors). And if you do, be happy with a regional gig, get that 121 experience and pass all of those evals and then see what happens when the world runs out of pilots in 4 years.

Just my thoughts. Take it for what it is worth.

kevbo
05-01-2018, 02:49 PM
Herc,

At present, I am taking my older kids to tour trade schools. The welding school reported that they had a graduate last year who made $160,000 in his first six months (20 years old). There are a lot of careers that one can choose these days that can match legacy airline wages without the huge cost in cash to become trained and educated nor the decade or two of sacrifice.

Just saying, that even the rosiest of airline outcomes is facing strong competition from fairly pedestrian careers. Pilots seem to live in a bubble. Often we don't stop to consider the opportunity cost of the lives we are choosing. Why do we put ourselves through this? 10-25 years to reach a position that can support a family is not great.

Real Estate is crushing it right now too.

Its great to encounter you again by the way. :)

Skyhigh

Make sure to drive right past any A&P school you may encounter. That career has all the negatives of a cockpit job with NONE of the benefits.

fenix1
05-25-2018, 12:03 AM
As a regional FO seeking to eventually become a check airman, what's the right goal: getting 1000 hours to upgrade to CA ASAP...or getting into the training department ASAP while still an FO?


You'll have no trouble with most regionals, AA regionals with flow *might* scrutinize you a bit more carefully.

If you get to keep your mil wings, then some quality time at the regionals should fix you up just fine, and you should still catch the peak of the hiring wave. If they pulled your wings it will be a little tougher, just due to perceptions.

Plan on upgrading at a regional, and try to get a check airman slot. Best way to do that is to get into the training dept ASAP as an FO (you'll want to have a clean training record at that airline too). Once in the training dept, you're known to management and will have an obvious advantage when applying for check airman and sim jobs. Regionals now tend to use FO's for ground instructors, so if you wait until you upgrade you won't have an obvious way to break into the training dept.

Other ways to stand out are to volunteer for test programs (software, etc), volunteer for union jobs or things like HIMS, run for union leadership jobs. Anything above and beyond just flying the line. You can also of course volunteer outside of the company... leadership is better of course (ie BoD for the nonprofit vice ladling soup once a week).

Expect to be at a regional 3-4 years, not 10+.

miker1
05-25-2018, 08:16 AM
Upgrade all day long. Dont do anything that keeps you from flying. Alaska cp told me this.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

OCCP
05-25-2018, 10:55 AM
With all the stuff going on at AS, why is it still on your radar? Seriously. Itís going to stagnate like crazy, youíll probably be an fo for over a decade and might only get 10 days off a month.

Reggie Dunlop
05-25-2018, 11:52 AM
If you are trying to get to a legacy airline, get in the left seat and get the time. That said the upgrade will take much longer at Alaska than at almost any other regional.

ShyGuy
05-25-2018, 12:54 PM
No more hiring for the rest of the year, 4% expected growth this year and next. So next year expected hiring about ~100 FOs.

Do the math. If you want Alaska it won't happen this year and maybe it might happen next year. Starting 2020 then maybe the doors open more. But why wait that long? Your apps should be in at AA/DL/UA/SW/FDX/UPS/B6. You're much more likely to be picked up at one of those places and a lot sooner than you are at Alaska. I'm not speaking ill of the place, I'm strictly talking numbers.

2loud
05-25-2018, 02:24 PM
I have two friends who couldn't air refuel to save their lives. Never busted a check ride but they couldn't upgrade either, languishing in copilot hell.

One is at a major now and loving life. Not much air refueling in fifi or guppy.

Keep pressing on, you can make it if your record isn't spotted with failures. If you did bust evals, then hope you can get a regional gig (I'm not sure how they look at busts, I've gotta think they are slightly more accepting than the majors). And if you do, be happy with a regional gig, get that 121 experience and pass all of those evals and then see what happens when the world runs out of pilots in 4 years.

Just my thoughts. Take it for what it is worth.

Some can't hook up with a tanker for the required duration and some can't fly 3' formation. Some can do both very well but can't fly raw data instrument approaches (yeah I know old school stuff) to save their lives. I think it's all psychological but who really knows why.:rolleyes: Thank your lucky stars for the likes of the Airbus, flight directors, automation, and even HUD/HGS to aid the WDs. Fortunately, airline flying is just point to point mostly-mindless flying and ex-mil bubbas will do just fine. As the saying goes, it's hours of boredom interrupted by moments of sheer terror. With so many retirements coming up, one should be able to land a job with some perseverance.

WiltChamberlain
05-25-2018, 04:43 PM
#movingthegoalposts

Cruz5350
05-25-2018, 06:53 PM
Take the upgrade, if LCA happens obviously snag that asap. I asked the Alaska chief 2 years ago if I should go to the training department or continue flying and upgrade. Word for word he told me we’re interested in hiring pilots not instructors. So I opted to stay out of the training department and fly as much as I could and upgraded. As far as coming to Alaska if you get an interview and offer then take it, that’s what I did. I was over the regional lifestyle and while it’s not much better here at Alaska at the moment it’s still better. If you get an offer for something better make the choice and decide from there if you want to stay or go. Remember that you get the smallest sample on this forum of the combined airline... there’s a whole lot of problems right now that we’re trying to fix but it’s not all doom and gloom and some of this is going to take awhile to fix.

fly4booz
05-25-2018, 08:06 PM
Progression is important so take the upgrade. Alaska isn’t getting to pick the cream of the crop these days for obvious reasons. They are hiring more and more pilots who would not otherwise have been hired a few years ago when competition was tougher. They seem to be hiring a lot more older pilots and retreads with very low or no turbine PIC time. For example, there are quite a few former expats who weren’t captains at a foreign carrier due to their inability to pass upgrade training or were afraid to even try.
I’m on my way out so there will be at least one more opening at this dysfunctional family. As soon as I’m offered a class date at the real legacy, I’m out of here. I won’t be able to stomach the SLI, especially when our own MEC is bending me over. Good luck.

Cruz5350
05-25-2018, 08:50 PM
Don’t listen to the poster above.... my interview group had 1 candidate with no PIC other than their time at Horizon as an FO and they weren’t hired. The other 2 had significant 121 time and both had Airbus time one hired and turned down the other not hired. In the 3 classes after mine I actually met almost all during Indoc on the Bus side and I didn’t meet a single individual that didn’t have tons of turbine, 121, or PIC. That’s the last 24 hired onto the Airbus, I was the class prior to those 24 and I was the least experienced with my measly 4200 TT, little over 1100 PIC w/ 650 121 PIC and about 3700 hours of 121. I can’t speak for the 737 side of the house but I’m sure it’s the same and in case anyone was wondering everyone I ran into had a degree. That doesn’t sound like degenerates like some may want you to believe in fact I’ve flown with way less qualified pilots that have moved onto the big 3 in my short stint as a Captain vs what I’ve seen here lately.

ShyGuy
05-25-2018, 09:21 PM
Progression is important so take the upgrade. Alaska isnít getting to pick the cream of the crop these days for obvious reasons. They are hiring more and more pilots who would not otherwise have been hired a few years ago when competition was tougher. They seem to be hiring a lot more older pilots and retreads with very low or no turbine PIC time. For example, there are quite a few former expats who werenít captains at a foreign carrier due to their inability to pass upgrade training or were afraid to even try.
Iím on my way out so there will be at least one more opening at this dysfunctional family. As soon as Iím offered a class date at the real legacy, Iím out of here. I wonít be able to stomach the SLI, especially when our own MEC is bending me over. Good luck.

Youíre a 737 FO, how long were you at AS? And how were you bent over in the AS SLI proposal for AS FOs?

fly4booz
05-25-2018, 09:59 PM
Donít listen to the poster above.... my interview group had 1 candidate with no PIC other than their time at Horizon as an FO and they werenít hired. The other 2 had significant 121 time and both had Airbus time one hired and turned down the other not hired. In the 3 classes after mine I actually met almost all during Indoc on the Bus side and I didnít meet a single individual that didnít have tons of turbine, 121, or PIC. Thatís the last 24 hired onto the Airbus, I was the class prior to those 24 and I was the least experienced with my measly 4200 TT, little over 1100 PIC w/ 650 121 PIC and about 3700 hours of 121. I canít speak for the 737 side of the house but Iím sure itís the same and in case anyone was wondering everyone I ran into had a degree. That doesnít sound like degenerates like some may want you to believe in fact Iíve flown with way less qualified pilots that have moved onto the big 3 in my short stint as a Captain vs what Iíve seen here lately.
Itís my observation and opinions of some of the captains whom Iíve flown with. Resumes and hours donít always paint a rosy picture. There are more weak new hires than usual with personality flaws to boot. Itís just what I hear on the line.
Youíre a 737 FO, how long were you at AS? And how were you bent over in the AS SLI proposal for AS FOs?
You have to ask? Itís been hashed out already. Alaska acquired VX. Itís really not a merger. Our MEC offered the VX pilot group a fair deal but they refused. VX side is shooting for the stars while Alaska morons fell for the ďfair and equitable ď proposal in arbitration, once again. With upgrades forecasted to be 9+ years, stagnation, uncertainty, subpar work rules, upcoming SLI sh!t show, etc., this place isnít for me. Itís only going to get worse before things improve. The only thing Iíll miss are the great bunch of crews, CAs and FAs.

ShyGuy
05-25-2018, 10:47 PM
Itís my observation and opinions of some of the captains whom Iíve flown with. Resumes and hours donít always paint a rosy picture. There are more weak new hires than usual with personality flaws to boot. Itís just what I hear on the line.

You have to ask? Itís been hashed out already. Alaska acquired VX. Itís really not a merger. Our MEC offered the VX pilot group a fair deal but they refused. VX side is shooting for the stars while Alaska morons fell for the ďfair and equitable ď proposal in arbitration, once again. With upgrades forecasted to be 9+ years, stagnation, uncertainty, subpar work rules, upcoming SLI sh!t show, etc., this place isnít for me. Itís only going to get worse before things improve. The only thing Iíll miss are the great bunch of crews, CAs and FAs.

You still didnít answer the question. When were you hired, sounds like less than 3 years on property? The rest of your commentary on acquisition not a merger is irrelevant. ALPA has a policy for merger/acquisition scenarios for ALPA-ALPA carriers and thatís what happened. And by what metric are you sayin the AS offer was a ďfair deal?Ē

The rest of the stuff about 9 yr upgrades, stagnation, subpar rules, etc, was AS as standalone carrier anyway.

Klsytakesit
05-26-2018, 02:24 AM
I think he saying the same as CRUZ. Alaska is a great place to launch to the six remaining airlines worth flying for. This wreckage of a merger has made it obvious for both Airbus and Boeing pilots with 5 years or less at the company that getting out on the hiring trail again is the best move. Financially, Mental Health-wise and Career-wise it is a no-brainer.
Try for the big sixat the same time. If you make it you are golden and if not polish your resume at Alaska and keep updating at the big six.

Slim6890
05-26-2018, 05:59 AM
I think he saying the same as CRUZ. Alaska is a great place to launch to the six remaining airlines worth flying for. This wreckage of a merger has made it obvious for both Airbus and Boeing pilots with 5 years or less at the company that getting out on the hiring trail again is the best move. Financially, Mental Health-wise and Career-wise it is a no-brainer.
Try for the big sixat the same time. If you make it you are golden and if not polish your resume at Alaska and keep updating at the big six.

Most FO's below 3 years on property are trying to jump ship at this point. No brainer

ShyGuy
05-26-2018, 07:45 AM
What exactly did VX ruin for AS? Let’s be honest, AS has always been a locality attraction for less pay than the legacies. People applied and went there for the state of Alaska or the PNW. How many AS pilots live and commute from the east coast? Literally like 2?

If pilots are leaving AS, it has less to do with VX and moreso to do with the realization that the other big 5 carriers have higher pay and QOL and bases in every city AS does except PDX (which apparently might be in a chopping block). Fed/Ups have ANC. Delta has SEA. Everyone has LAX. Alaska has always had a historical long upgrade time, lower pay and schedule quality than the big majors, etc.

fly4booz
05-26-2018, 08:51 AM
You still didn’t answer the question. When were you hired, sounds like less than 3 years on property? The rest of your commentary on acquisition not a merger is irrelevant. ALPA has a policy for merger/acquisition scenarios for ALPA-ALPA carriers and that’s what happened. And by what metric are you sayin the AS offer was a “fair deal?”

The rest of the stuff about 9 yr upgrades, stagnation, subpar rules, etc, was AS as standalone carrier anyway.

4 years. Talk to your reps regarding the SLI negotiations between the two groups (pre arbitration). Better yet, talk to Alaska's side also.

ALPA-ALPA carriers? You gotta be joking, right? You guys only voted in ALPA months before the acquisition was announced. You don't even have a contract or a real seniority list. This isn't a co-equal marriage. You guys want to treat it like DAL+NWA and UAL+CAL but it just isn't the same by a long shot. Acquisition vs. merger is irrelevant? I think not but everyone is entitled to an opinion. You guys were well on your way of becoming Aloha II. Alaska would not lose a bidding war with B6 and if Uncle Brad and his boys didn't acquire VX, some two bit investment company would have and dismantled your beloved airline. Or best case, you would be in the same boat as Frontier. If you want to stick with "merger", the two companies are apples to orange. Let's start with 10 year old company vs. 85. Little to no profit vs. record profits. Stepping stone vs. career. No college vs. college. Easy to get on vs. very selective. Zero PIC vs. ....And the list goes on. I'm willing to bet that no child ever dreamed of being a VX pilot. Well, I dreamed of being a Alaska Airlines pilot ever since I can remember and so did many of my peers. The less pay than the big three that you are talking about is somewhat true but when you look at the overall package, Alaska's isn't too far off especially for those older dudes still with a pension. Did you know that Alaska pilots were the highest paid at one point?
Unless driving to work or flying in the same time zone is the most important thing in your life or you just love Alaska, it makes no sense to stay if you are in your 30s or even low 40s.

fly4booz
05-26-2018, 09:12 AM
One more thing.
Alaska has been trying to put VX out of business since VX's existence. Alaska was the first one to oppose VX's certificate. Alaska only purchased VX to keep B6 out. That's it! VX truly does not offer anything worth a dime to Alaska. Incase you haven't noticed, your JFK base is closing and airbus flying will diminish over time until there are zero buses on the property. Who overpays for something that they never wanted in the first place, takes it apart and throws it away? What Alaska really wanted and needs is a midwest hub. VX only brought a headache and a huge debt to eskimo. It's Alaska's Hamburger Hill.

ShyGuy
05-26-2018, 09:32 AM
fly4booz,

You sound ticked off and angry with the VX purchase. What did you lose with the merger? I just lost my base and forced to either commute 2,200 nm to the next closest base, or uproot/disrupt the family and move them across the country. But sure, I'll answer...


4 years. Talk to your reps regarding the SLI negotiations between the two groups (pre arbitration). Better yet, talk to Alaska's side also.

I don't need to ask them anything. The transcripts are out for all to see. Each side did what they think is best for their own group, as would be expected.

ALPA-ALPA carriers? You gotta be joking, right? You guys only voted in ALPA months before the acquisition was announced.
Yes ALPA was voted in June 2015. The rest is irrelevant. It is (and was) an ALPA carrier when it was acquired in April 2016.

You don't even have a contract or a real seniority list.

With ALPA voted in 9 months prior to the purchase date, it's unrealistic to have expected a new contract within 9 months. jetBlue just took 3 years for their first agreement after voting in ALPA. Stuff like that takes time. And VX does have a real seniority list. You may not like looking at it, but it's real.

This isn't a co-equal marriage. You guys want to treat it like DAL+NWA and UAL+CAL but it just isn't the same by a long shot.
It sounds like you're bitter over the VX proposal. And you've clearly said what AS was proposing was a "fair deal" so clearly you're heavily biased. I've come across some (and you sound like you're in that boat) that would be entirely POed if even one VX guy went above you on the final list. It's probably gonna happen, and best if you stop worrying about a list you can't control.

Acquisition vs. merger is irrelevant? I think not but everyone is entitled to an opinion.
ALPA merger policy isn't an opinion, and it covers this scenario which is why it is applying here.

You guys were well on your way of becoming Aloha II.
Now this is an opinion.

Alaska would not lose a bidding war with B6 and if Uncle Brad and his boys didn't acquire VX, some two bit investment company would have and dismantled your beloved airline. Or best case, you would be in the same boat as Frontier.
Hey, believe me I wish jetBlue did purchase us. Much closer culture, same business model, same fleet, much closer longevity for the two carriers, etc. etc. As for your "Uncle Brad and his boys" they had no choice if they wanted Alaska to stay as Alaska. That's why they paid what they did for VX. Delta is attacking your backyard in SEA pretty hard.

If you want to stick with "merger", the two companies are apples to orange. Let's start with 10 year old company vs. 85.
Yes, as mentioned the longevity variance is huge for the two companies. But it's a west coast regional airline that has always paid lower than the legacies with the primary draw of living where you wanted: PNW or Alaska. It's always been that way, and your contract reflects that.

Stepping stone vs. career.
What stepping stone? VX's attrition rate was similar to AS, proportionately speaking. We have lots of guys from Aloha, ATA, US Airways, AWA, and all sorts of other big airlines. When VX had it's primary run of attrition in 2011/2012/2013, it was mostly due to guys taking their recall rights back to United and AA.

No college vs. college.
I'd like to know who perpetuated this BS. My degree is in Aerospace Engineering.

Easy to get on vs. very selective.

VX was pretty tough to get on, and even the selection numbers for the interviews were low. In my group 5 out of 11 were hired. And btw, one guy not hired in my interview group at VX was hired by AS later that year. You can ask him which carrier was easier to get on.

Zero PIC vs. ....And the list goes on.
AS has taken zero PIC too. These days PIC isn't a discriminate thing anymore.

I'm willing to bet that no child ever dreamed of being a VX pilot. Well, I dreamed of being a Alaska Airlines pilot ever since I can remember and so did many of my peers. The less pay than the big three that you are talking about is somewhat true but when you look at the overall package, Alaska's isn't too far off especially for those older dudes still with a pension. Did you know that Alaska pilots were the highest paid at one point?
Of course you did. And AS knows too, which is why they capitalize on your types. It's okay to admit you prioritize a geographic location over pay, but that's no longer true with Delta available for SEA, all the big airlines for LAX, and Fdx/UPS available for ANC.


Unless driving to work or flying in the same time zone is the most important thing in your life or you just love Alaska, it makes no sense to stay if you are in your 30s or even low 40s.

Isn't that why you dreamed about working for AS? If you could be honest with yourself this quoted portion statement you just made is true for Alaska even before the VX purchase.

ShyGuy
05-26-2018, 09:34 AM
One more thing.
Alaska has been trying to put VX out of business since VX's existence. Alaska was the first one to oppose VX's certificate. Alaska only purchased VX to keep B6 out. That's it! VX truly does not offer anything worth a dime to Alaska. Incase you haven't noticed, your JFK base is closing and airbus flying will diminish over time until there are zero buses on the property. Who overpays for something that they never wanted in the first place, takes it apart and throws it away? What Alaska really wanted and needs is a midwest hub. VX only brought a headache and a huge debt to eskimo. It's Alaska's Hamburger Hill.

Yeah I noticed JFK is closing, I'm one of the affected ones. You sound like a broken record here. In this merger so far you've lost nothing! But best of luck in your next endeavor. I hope to join you soon in that regard. Unlike your situation, I have no choice if I ever want to get back to a NY base again.

UG335
05-26-2018, 10:56 AM
Director of training came into our class and said hiring will resume this year. The December 2018 numbers came out and AS doesnít have enough pilots he said. Hope this helps.

cmrflyer
05-26-2018, 12:15 PM
Not really.

OCCP
05-26-2018, 02:24 PM
Still sucks

fly4booz
05-26-2018, 04:10 PM
Yeah I noticed JFK is closing, I'm one of the affected ones. You sound like a broken record here. In this merger so far you've lost nothing! But best of luck in your next endeavor. I hope to join you soon in that regard. Unlike your situation, I have no choice if I ever want to get back to a NY base again.

Iím not upset with the purchase of VX. None of us had any control. I just donít agree with how the SLI is playing out. Alaska and VX are not in the same league by any standard and obviously, you donít like this reality. Every one of my peers knew that VX wasnít a career airline. I guess you never got the intel. Looks like youíre an angry man but I sympathize with your situation due to your base closure. I really donít have a dog in this fight anymore and realize that no one can change your views on anything. Hopefully DAL or B6 will pick you up. I hear JFK base goes very junior.

ShyGuy
05-26-2018, 07:59 PM
I’m not upset with the purchase of VX. None of us had any control. I just don’t agree with how the SLI is playing out. Alaska and VX are not in the same league by any standard and obviously, you don’t like this reality. Every one of my peers knew that VX wasn’t a career airline. I guess you never got the intel. Looks like you’re an angry man but I sympathize with your situation due to your base closure. I really don’t have a dog in this fight anymore and realize that no one can change your views on anything. Hopefully DAL or B6 will pick you up. I hear JFK base goes very junior.

I’m not angry, just disapppinted how they’re running things but I can’t change any of that.

What are you so disappointed about the SLI proposal? You knew Virgin wasn’t a career airline? That’s nice, probably the same way I never applied to a Pacific Northwest regional type flying called Alaska. Anyway, Alaska’s proposal pretty much puts the first VX guy in the 2000 DOH range, and thats the #1 guy hired in Dec 2006. What else are you expecting? You wanted a true DOH merger? That’s not how it works. It looks like you thought you worked for a real legacy airline buying a small regional airline and expected a staple job. The SLI is headed to arbitration just like pretty much all the others have for the past 20 years for ALPA-ALPA carriers.

fly4booz
05-26-2018, 09:00 PM
I think Iím done here. I wish the best for both sides. Iíve enjoyed the flying, layovers, and hanging with some of the coolest crews. I really wished I could talk myself into staying but I canít see myself being happy here in the long run. SLI and scheduling alone sealed the deal. I may not get what Iím looking for elsewhere but at least I can make more money and buy my QOL. Peace out!

echelon
05-26-2018, 09:40 PM
I think Iím done here.

Possibly the most constructive thing I've read on any of these threads in the last month. And it's especially refreshing to read this, given that you admittedly

really donít have a dog in this fight anymore


So from those of us that do still have a dog in this stupid fight in spite of our attempts to leave it, thank you for volunteering to put a stop to the seemingly endless cycle that pervades the rest of this forum:


1. "You guys (AS/VX) needed us more than we needed you"
2. "Let me (VX/AS) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfall, not us"
3. "Guys, we need to be one pilot group. 2020! No scope no vote!"
4. "Totally! But just to clarify a few things... "
5. See 1


Please don't disappoint me by replying anymore.

Packrat
05-27-2018, 02:45 AM
I'm willing to bet that no child ever dreamed of being a VX pilot. Well, I dreamed of being a Alaska Airlines pilot ever since I can remember and so did many of my peers.

I have to validate this sentiment. One guy I know could have been a UPS pilot a full decade before he got on with Alaska. He had to finish his college degree while working a full time flying job to support his family. He most certainly had the connections to go to Big Brown but was focused on his dream of being an AS pilot.

Now he is one. Dream accomplished. Corny as it sounds, he's living his dream.

Not everyone is in this business to fly wide bodies internationally for the money. More than a few are all about their families. That means QoL trumps $$$. Everyone wishes they could make more money but the key to happiness is living within your means.

WutFace
05-27-2018, 07:07 AM
I'm willing to bet that no child ever dreamed of being a VX pilot.

You would lose that bet. I know dozens of kids that were devastated by the loss of Virgin America. It was the cool airline, and teenage would-be-pilots were lining up. Now they won't have that chance.

I take it you don't have an Instagram account. You AS guys are so arrogant, your entire world is only defined by your very small experience.

Ispeakjive
05-27-2018, 08:46 AM
Possibly the most constructive thing I've read on any of these threads in the last month. And it's especially refreshing to read this, given that you admittedly




So from those of us that do still have a dog in this stupid fight in spite of our attempts to leave it, thank you for volunteering to put a stop to the seemingly endless cycle that pervades the rest of this forum:


1. "You guys (AS/VX) needed us more than we needed you"
2. "Let me (VX/AS) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfall, not us"
3. "Guys, we need to be one pilot group. 2020! No scope no vote!"
4. "Totally! But just to clarify a few things... "
5. See 1


Please don't disappoint me by replying anymore.

You've just rolled the last 2 years of APC forums into one tidy and accurate post. Nice work.

Work4life
05-27-2018, 09:18 AM
Possibly the most constructive thing I've read on any of these threads in the last month. And it's especially refreshing to read this, given that you admittedly




So from those of us that do still have a dog in this stupid fight in spite of our attempts to leave it, thank you for volunteering to put a stop to the seemingly endless cycle that pervades the rest of this forum:


1. "You guys (AS/VX) needed us more than we needed you"
2. "Let me (VX/AS) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfall, not us"
3. "Guys, we need to be one pilot group. 2020! No scope no vote!"
4. "Totally! But just to clarify a few things... "
5. See 1


Please don't disappoint me by replying anymore.

You guys really can’t handle the truth. A trait of a loser for sure. Truth hurts, I get it. Owning up to one’s flaws and working to improve oneself is a key to success. I’m just saying.

Let me correct a few things for you:
1) Replace with, "You guys (AS/VX) needed to go away” and it happened at a cost of $4 billion. Less than 10 busses, a base closure, and a bunch of whiny undesirables who hate being part of Alaska hardly qualifies as a need. VX was just an empty shell.
2) Replace with, “Let me (AS/VX) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfall”. 40%+ pay raise, real 401k contribution (not match), improved healthcare, and most importantly a JOB/career without even lifting a finger.
3) You got that right but 1 out of 5 is still a major fail.

I have 2 job offers and I am also on the way out. Instead of living in denial and anger, you guys should do something about it. Undesirable or not...you know who you are. Good luck to all. Ciao!

echelon
05-27-2018, 09:29 AM
You guys really canít handle the truth. A trait of a loser for sure. Truth hurts, I get it. Owning up to oneís flaws and working to improve oneself is a key to success. Iím just saying.

Let me correct a few things for you:
1) Replace with, "You guys (AS/VX) needed to go awayĒ and it happened at a cost of $4 billion. Less than 10 busses, a base closure, and a bunch of whiny undesirables who hate being part of Alaska hardly qualifies as a need. VX was just an empty shell.
2) Replace with, ďLet me (AS/VX) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfallĒ. 40%+ pay raise, real 401k contribution (not match), improved healthcare, and most importantly a JOB/career without even lifting a finger.
3) You got that right but 1 out of 5 is still a major fail.

I have 2 job offers and I am also on the way out. Instead of living in denial and anger, you guys should do something about it. Undesirable or not...you know who you are. Good luck to all. Ciao!

And the cycle restarts, thanks to you and the unoriginal drivel you just reposted! If I'd wanted to waste my time reading what you just wasted your time writing I would just go read every third post on the last 80 pages of every single other thread in the Alaska forum. If anything you just wrote doesn't exist anywhere else in the last two weeks (I'll be generous, a month) worth of posts here, I will eat my own d!ck.

Work4life
05-27-2018, 09:42 AM
And the cycle restarts, thanks to you and the unoriginal drivel you just reposted! If I'd wanted to waste my time reading what you just wasted your time writing I would just go read every third post on the last 80 pages of every single other thread in the Alaska forum. If anything you just wrote doesn't exist anywhere else in the last two weeks (I'll be generous, a month) worth of posts here, I will eat my own d!ck.

Whaat? I havenít been on APC in a over a month. What are you smoking? Must be something good. After you eat your own d!ck, may I suggest rehab and a reputable anger management program?

Bugaboo
05-27-2018, 10:10 AM
You guys really canít handle the truth. A trait of a loser for sure. Truth hurts, I get it. Owning up to oneís flaws and working to improve oneself is a key to success. Iím just saying.

Let me correct a few things for you:
1) Replace with, "You guys (AS/VX) needed to go awayĒ and it happened at a cost of $4 billion. Less than 10 busses, a base closure, and a bunch of whiny undesirables who hate being part of Alaska hardly qualifies as a need. VX was just an empty shell.
2) Replace with, ďLet me (AS/VX) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfallĒ. 40%+ pay raise, real 401k contribution (not match), improved healthcare, and most importantly a JOB/career without even lifting a finger.
3) You got that right but 1 out of 5 is still a major fail.

I have 2 job offers and I am also on the way out. Instead of living in denial and anger, you guys should do something about it. Undesirable or not...you know who you are. Good luck to all. Ciao!

Bye Felicia

FlapsOverspeed
05-27-2018, 01:40 PM
AS seems kinda toxic work place. This real or just 6 internet personalities?

MusicPilot
05-27-2018, 06:34 PM
You guys really canít handle the truth. A trait of a loser for sure. Truth hurts, I get it. Owning up to oneís flaws and working to improve oneself is a key to success. Iím just saying.

Let me correct a few things for you:
1) Replace with, "You guys (AS/VX) needed to go awayĒ and it happened at a cost of $4 billion. Less than 10 busses, a base closure, and a bunch of whiny undesirables who hate being part of Alaska hardly qualifies as a need. VX was just an empty shell.
2) Replace with, ďLet me (AS/VX) tell you why you're wrong, and it's you that got the windfallĒ. 40%+ pay raise, real 401k contribution (not match), improved healthcare, and most importantly a JOB/career without even lifting a finger.
3) You got that right but 1 out of 5 is still a major fail.

I have 2 job offers and I am also on the way out. Instead of living in denial and anger, you guys should do something about it. Undesirable or not...you know who you are. Good luck to all. Ciao!


Ignorance is bliss.

1) AS and their 86 year history of hiding in the PNW had finally bit them. Even with the band aid VX purchase, theyíre still trying to find a way to survive. Itís just a matter of time before AS is swallowed up. I guess it makes you sleep good at night to say that VX pilots are whiny undesirables. You might want to research the type of pilots that VX hired.

2) Did you not get a significant raise too? Do you think you wouldíve got that raise in 2020 immediately? Did the VX purchase not push your pay and 401k a lot sooner? VX had 12% 401k with 4.5% unmatched. Do you put more than 7.5% away in your 401k? So, itís irrelevant what the match and unmatched were. Healthcare? VX had a pretty good medical plan. In fact, it pretty much was the same as it is here.

Job/career?

You talk about how great this place is but youíre leaving?

Itís best you probably adventure out and move on from AS. Iíll be the first to laugh when AS merges with the carrier you go to and all those junior pilots to you will now be senior with higher pay.

Work4life
05-27-2018, 07:39 PM
Ignorance is bliss.

1) AS and their 86 year history of hiding in the PNW had finally bit them. Even with the band aid VX purchase, they’re still trying to find a way to survive. It’s just a matter of time before AS is swallowed up. I guess it makes you sleep good at night to say that VX pilots are whiny undesirables. You might want to research the type of pilots that VX hired.

2) Did you not get a significant raise too? Do you think you would’ve got that raise in 2020 immediately? Did the VX purchase not push your pay and 401k a lot sooner? VX had 12% 401k with 4.5% unmatched. Do you put more than 7.5% away in your 401k? So, it’s irrelevant what the match and unmatched were. Healthcare? VX had a pretty good medical plan. In fact, it pretty much was the same as it is here.

Job/career?

You talk about how great this place is but you’re leaving?

It’s best you probably adventure out and move on from AS. I’ll be the first to laugh when AS merges with the carrier you go to and all those junior pilots to you will now be senior with higher pay.

Alaska won’t be “swallowed up”. Angle Lake has too much ego to let that happen. They may merge or even acquire another carrier but it’s fate will never be that of VX-unwanted and undesirable by the very creator thus put up for adoption.
No need to worry about my future seniority. I can assure you that I’ll never jerk gear for you. It’s too bad that the only way you’ll ever work for a real airline is through acquisitions and mergers. You got one thing right-I can’t stomach the thought of being junior to undesirables as yourself.

OCCP
05-27-2018, 10:18 PM
AS seems kinda toxic work place. This real or just 6 internet personalities?



I would agree with that.

We have a management that preaches culture, happiness, empowering employees and ďdoing the right thingĒ but in reality itís a clueless micromanaging team that loves to pit different groups of employees against each other.

The same management canít get a game plan together. They refuse to learn from the rest of the industry and do only what they know(which is retreat back into the cave). We went from hiring 400 pilots this year, down to 200, then abruptly stopped, and now thereís rumors of it starting up again. The merger was supposed to be about growth, but now we just stopped. Does that sound like a company that knows what itís doing and where itís going?

The stagnation and integrating is and will continuing to be a morale crusher with no end in sight and nothing good coming on the horizon.

The VX pilots are looked at as ďundesirableĒ and treated as such. We should be kissing the ground the Almighty AS pilots walk on because they saved us. We are also viewed as inexperienced and barely skilled enough to keep the plane in the air.

You have the AS pilots who are arrogant but weak and out of touch with the rest of the industry and some who actually think their contract is legacy status.

So weíre about take a group of whiny, unskilled, under qualified novices and mix it in with a group of super arrogant, yet spineless company yes men who live in a bubble. That alone should create a toxic environment!!!!!

Next comes the cross fleeting that no one really wants. Both sides are ****ed because we are all losing some routes or type of flying that weíve become accustomed to.

Only about 10 mainline deliveries over the next few years will lead to super stagnation. Upgrade will probably be in the 10-12 year area, no scope clause, base closures, lives uprooted, unproductive junk lines, less days off will all add to the list of things that make this place toxic.

Keep in mind we are the only airline doing all of this. Everyone else is moving upwards.

NotTellin
05-27-2018, 11:13 PM
I would agree with that.

We have a management that preaches culture, happiness, empowering employees and ďdoing the right thingĒ but in reality itís a clueless micromanaging team that loves to pit different groups of employees against each other.

The same management canít get a game plan together. They refuse to learn from the rest of the industry and do only what they know(which is retreat back into the cave). We went from hiring 400 pilots this year, down to 200, then abruptly stopped, and now thereís rumors of it starting up again. The merger was supposed to be about growth, but now we just stopped. Does that sound like a company that knows what itís doing and where itís going?

The stagnation and integrating is and will continuing to be a morale crusher with no end in sight and nothing good coming on the horizon.

The VX pilots are looked at as ďundesirableĒ and treated as such. We should be kissing the ground the Almighty AS pilots walk on because they saved us. We are also viewed as inexperienced and barely skilled enough to keep the plane in the air.

You have the AS pilots who are arrogant but weak and out of touch with the rest of the industry and some who actually think their contract is legacy status.

So weíre about take a group of whiny, unskilled, under qualified novices and mix it in with a group of super arrogant, yet spineless company yes men who live in a bubble. That alone should create a toxic environment!!!!!

Next comes the cross fleeting that no one really wants. Both sides are ****ed because we are all losing some routes or type of flying that weíve become accustomed to.

Only about 10 mainline deliveries over the next few years will lead to super stagnation. Upgrade will probably be in the 10-12 year area, no scope clause, base closures, lives uprooted, unproductive junk lines, less days off will all add to the list of things that make this place toxic.

Keep in mind we are the only airline doing all of this. Everyone else is moving upwards.
^^^^^^This right there!^^^^^^
This place is a joke. Anyone that can, should move on. Those of us that will be left behind due age or arrogance, had better fight for some REAL CHANGE or we are doomed!

Pogey Bait
05-28-2018, 02:38 AM
This place sounds like it is getting worse and worse, sorry to hear this guys. All I can say is that there is massive retirements coming up at the 3; and that for you Virgins make sure to change your apps to Alaska, not Virgin America. Update all the time.

MiLtoMajor123
05-29-2018, 10:10 AM
Boo Birds everywhere. I'm newish soooo I guess I don't count....but it's not that bad and beats a 9-5 desk job. Bottom line is it's a good job despite what people try and say....it's squabbling about how much better a good job can be....that's about it. Yes the company does pit the pilot groups against each other.....but then again ....it's the Unions job to pit us against the company (for good reason). So we get propaganda from BOTH camps constantly. Yes we need to be unified ....and not roll over and be yes men for our next contract, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water either. Fear mongering and hysteria don't help.....just know that the airline industry has a 10 year cycle and be prepared in case there is a down turn (aka don't live above your means.....aka don't take out a housing loan more than a 1/3 of your paycheck and try and live off of 1/2 a paycheck). I don't care who you are that is just solid life advise whatever the economy is doing.

At the end of the day weigh your options with ALL airlines from a Quality of Life perspective and you should do fine. To get Hired you need PIC (especially as a non tactical guy).....that means upgrading to get Turbine (and I'd argue Multi) PIC time should be your #1 priority. Don't "quit' the military if you don't have to....meaning...try and keep that reserve option open...even with a FNAEB (PM me if you need advise) under your belt. Keep that clock ticking to 20 and use the Reserves to carry your pad your wages while getting low pay at a Regional. The Iron is hot at the airlines right now....but that will not last (if History has taught us anything) so keep that in mind.

OCCP
05-29-2018, 03:40 PM
Boo Birds everywhere. I'm newish soooo I guess I don't count....but it's not that bad and beats a 9-5 desk job.



This is the problem. You should not be comparing your ďlegacyĒ airline job to an average 9-5 working stiff. Apples/oranges.

MiLtoMajor123
05-29-2018, 07:11 PM
This is the problem. You should not be comparing your “legacy” airline job to an average 9-5 working stiff. Apples/oranges.

:rolleyes: ........again....squabbling over how much better a GOOD job can be....is our modus operandi at (or near) the top of the pile. Yes fight for a better contract......but you have to get through the door first. All I said was this is a good job.....I guess that is forbidden now? New contract negotiations start when again? When do I start not saying any good stuff about OUR airline? Still need good people here the last time I checked.

NO SCOPE NO VOTE!!! (happy?)

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/military/113924-thats-i-quit.html

echelon
05-29-2018, 07:58 PM
at (or near) the top of the pile.

We are nowhere near the top of the pile. Most regionals these days have better work rules than AS.

=MiLtoMajor123;2604968]New contract negotiations start when again?

They are going on every single day, even if not in an official capacity. What do you think drives management's willingness to negotiate in 2020? If everything runs perfectly smoothly and all the open time gets picked up for piddling premium pay and pilots continue ensuring the operation runs without a hitch by taking responsibility for things that are not their responsibility and doing other people's jobs for them, etc etc etc, what is there to negotiate?

I heard a LOT of people saying, "No more favors, no extensions, etc!" after the JCBA came out. That's great, but the time for that attitude was BEFORE this all went to arbitration, 2 years ago when negotiating was still taking place. And don't forget that negotiations from the JCBA aren't even over!! I haven't seen the FO slope fixed, have you? I don't see a scheduling MOU either, do you? How many grievances are still open?

The grass IS greener elsewhere, which is why a lot of people are trying to leave, myself included. If you were in a prospective AS pilot's shoes today wouldn't you rather be told the truth than "it's pretty good here" by someone who just wants you to be junior to them?

OCCP
05-29-2018, 08:11 PM
The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs

MiLtoMajor123
05-29-2018, 08:38 PM
If you were in a prospective AS pilot's shoes today wouldn't you rather be told the truth than "it's pretty good here" by someone who just wants you to be junior to them?

Or rather be told the truth than "it really sucks here" by someone wanting this place to burn to the ground and to be bought out by another carrier instead of fighting for a better contract?

Truth is....it's a good job. That's it. It's a good job that can be better.....2020.


The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs

More worried about fences, new Airbus bases and stagnation of growth then outright furloughs. Given what you said it makes sense to have a hiring freeze to let the dust settle. I'm really curious to see how many East coasters bolt for other carriers for better QOL vice trans con commuting or moving.

FlyAK
05-29-2018, 08:39 PM
The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs

Maybe you could share the email? I haven't seen anything to indicate a reduction in fall block hours that would be anything more than normal, but maybe they are not telling both groups the same story...

KnockKnock
05-29-2018, 08:53 PM
The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs
The Fall pull down is SOP. Happens every Fall at every airline. I wouldn't read too deep into that. Certainly not so deep to fear furloughs.

Mea25000
05-29-2018, 09:11 PM
The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs


Furloughs, your on drugs. Looks like three fall Boeing classes. Airbus looks staffed appropriately for the next 12-24 months depending on resignations

echelon
05-29-2018, 09:20 PM
The email today about the Airbus displacement bid was interesting as well because it mentioned a huge block hour reduction for fall in addition to a base closure. That should concern the jr Boeing guys too because once the list gets integrated, we may be looking at furloughs

I see 248 SFO FO's as of 9/1 and an estimated 147 bid blocks. Does that mean ~147 lines and a HUNDRED FO's on reserve? 40% of the base?

ShyGuy
05-29-2018, 09:26 PM
Boo Birds everywhere. I'm newish soooo I guess I don't count....but it's not that bad and beats a 9-5 desk job. Bottom line is it's a good job despite what people try and say....it's squabbling about how much better a good job can be....that's about it. Yes the company does pit the pilot groups against each other.....but then again ....it's the Unions job to pit us against the company (for good reason). So we get propaganda from BOTH camps constantly. Yes we need to be unified ....and not roll over and be yes men for our next contract, but we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water either. Fear mongering and hysteria don't help.....just know that the airline industry has a 10 year cycle and be prepared in case there is a down turn (aka don't live above your means.....aka don't take out a housing loan more than a 1/3 of your paycheck and try and live off of 1/2 a paycheck). I don't care who you are that is just solid life advise whatever the economy is doing.


Your username is appropriate. Alaska your first airline? Were you McChord and drive to SEA? If so, yes it's a great airline job.

Bugaboo
05-29-2018, 09:33 PM
The Fall pull down is SOP. Happens every Fall at every airline. I wouldn't read too deep into that. Certainly not so deep to fear furloughs.

September 1st (estimated after displaced JFK crews go to SFO/LAX)
SFO Captains/First Officers: 269/248
Bid Blocks: 147

LAX Captains/First Officers: 180/177
Bid Blocks: 137

I seriously hope this is not what is considered SOP!
If you estimate 22 build up lines in each base that leaves you with 100 Reserve Captains in SFO and about 80 Reserve First Officers. What is that....about a 38% reserve coverage for Captains and a little less than that for First Officers?!:eek: LAX is a little better but not much. 23%?
What has the reserve percentage been in the past year? 12-13%?
Not on drugs! How long will this last without downgrades and furloughs?
Isn't there a timeframe established in the TPA that outlines a timeframe that disallows furloughs?

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, this may be due to some airframes going in for paint and a Fall pull down but......DAMN!!!

ShyGuy
05-29-2018, 09:38 PM
The most shocking thing is their response on commutability and commutable lines.

Dang! :eek:

echelon
05-29-2018, 09:43 PM
The most shocking thing is their response on commutability and commutable lines.

Dang! :eek:

Didn't see that, what'd they say? Or did you just mean the mock lines?

Bugaboo
05-29-2018, 09:47 PM
The most shocking thing is their response on commutability and commutable lines.

Dang! :eek:

What was the response? Something in the area of...
"We want our pilots to live in domicile so you 80% commuters from Virgin America are f^(%d? We don't care about your quality of life or family, we just want to build the most efficient pairings we can in order to reduce costs."?
Knowing Alaska management, and I guess I don't blame them, that would be pretty close?

Mea25000
05-29-2018, 10:32 PM
September 1st (estimated after displaced JFK crews go to SFO/LAX)
SFO Captains/First Officers: 269/248
Bid Blocks: 147

LAX Captains/First Officers: 180/177
Bid Blocks: 137

I seriously hope this is not what is considered SOP!
If you estimate 22 build up lines in each base that leaves you with 100 Reserve Captains in SFO and about 80 Reserve First Officers. What is that....about a 38% reserve coverage for Captains and a little less than that for First Officers?!:eek: LAX is a little better but not much. 23%?
What has the reserve percentage been in the past year? 12-13%?
Not on drugs! How long will this last without downgrades and furloughs?
Isn't there a timeframe established in the TPA that outlines a timeframe that disallows furloughs?

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, this may be due to some airframes going in for paint and a Fall pull down but......DAMN!!!

147 + 27-33 open flying lines = 180
68 on RSV a little fat but itís that time of year. AS is expecting 30 VX pilots to walk in the next 12 mos. If Airbus doesnít come back with a good number $$$ on switching all those 320 options to 321. You will all be slowly reduced to the Boeing side. There will be no furloughs.

ShyGuy
05-29-2018, 11:01 PM
What are OF lines?

MusicPilot
05-30-2018, 04:37 AM
What are OF lines?


Open lines of flying.

Whatís created when the conflicts drop trips into the open pot.

MusicPilot
05-30-2018, 04:46 AM
What was the response? Something in the area of...
"We want our pilots to live in domicile so you 80% commuters from Virgin America are f^(%d? We don't care about your quality of life or family, we just want to build the most efficient pairings we can in order to reduce costs."?
Knowing Alaska management, and I guess I don't blame them, that would be pretty close?

Iím pretty sure you can build productive commutable trips. Itís all about marketing. If a plane sits somewhere for a lengthy period then thatís not productive for either the plane or the crews. Our guys use to tell marketing that certain flight times wouldnít work because it wasnít productive. Saying you canít build commutable lines is just an excuse. They want you living in base so you donít use the commuter clause trying to get to work. Thereís the real truth.

Bugaboo
05-30-2018, 05:14 AM
147 + 27-33 open flying lines = 180
68 on RSV a little fat but itís that time of year. AS is expecting 30 VX pilots to walk in the next 12 mos. If Airbus doesnít come back with a good number $$$ on switching all those 320 options to 321. You will all be slowly reduced to the Boeing side. There will be no furloughs.

I hear ya, but the mock bid for June showed less than 10 open flying lines. How would there be more in Sept with a reduction in the number of lines?
Was the mock bid inaccurate as to open flying lines? How many lines did SEA have for June and how many open lines were assigned?
Even 70 is more than a little fat. The Captain side in SFO has been doing it with high 20s to mid 30s for a while.
Im sure the daily reserve buffer will STILL be red on a daily basis.😜

DelTacoBowl
05-30-2018, 10:46 AM
Any info on the makeup of those classes? New Hire classes?


Furloughs, your on drugs. Looks like three fall Boeing classes. Airbus looks staffed appropriately for the next 12-24 months depending on resignations

WutFace
05-30-2018, 11:18 AM
AS is expecting 30 VX pilots to walk in the next 12 mos.

Arrogance is why AS is always in a state of perpetual surprise and reaction. Expect this projection to be blown out of the water.

ImperialxRat
05-30-2018, 12:46 PM
AS seems kinda toxic work place. This real or just 6 internet personalities?


LAX based here, all I've seen are nice people on both sides and all of us realize that we have no control in this. We chat with VX guys in the crew room and on the buses to layovers, and they chat with us. I'm assuming this toxic environment is really just on APC from some internet tough guys.

All Bizniz
05-30-2018, 01:22 PM
LAX based here, all I've seen are nice people on both sides and all of us realize that we have no control in this. We chat with VX guys in the crew room and on the buses to layovers, and they chat with us. I'm assuming this toxic environment is really just on APC from some internet tough guys.
This! ^^^^^^
I've met some super cool AS folks in the flesh.....