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View Full Version : "Captain Add List" - WTF?


Frip
04-04-2018, 02:18 PM
While flying the line during the Easter holiday weekend, i was able to discuss my previous HI6 message regarding captain add fuel with many of you. For the past few days, no CRJ captain was listed on the company capt ADD list. Thank you so much for your cooperation and efficient management of your aircraft. Recently, two captains requested more fuel and were placed on the list. This is very unfortunate because they did not use the fuel requested. I will be in Chicago on wednesday to discuss this issue with your chief pilot in order to determine a future course of action for non-compliant flight crews. Expect more information on this issue in the near future.



Huh? What's the frequency Kenneth?
Cubicle dwellers dictating fuel loads?
Can anyone shine any light on this?

"A future course of action for non-compliant flight crews"?!!!

Because "this is very unfortunate because they didn't use the fuel requested"?!!!


NoValueAviator
04-04-2018, 02:27 PM
LOL, whoever put that in writing is definitely not a lawyer. This will 100% get read in court if we crash a jet because it ran out of fuel.

highfarfast
04-04-2018, 02:28 PM
WTF indeed!

Is the bold exactly what you had in the HI6?

So much wrong with this.


Frip
04-04-2018, 02:51 PM
Not at Envoy, saw this secondhand.

Whoever wrote it should be made "famous".

moon
04-04-2018, 03:00 PM
This is like that time we got an HI6 about how we should not use the FAA visibility tables to determine the intensity of snowfall. When I read that and when I read this I thought the same thing. Someones going to get demoted.

xxordxx
04-04-2018, 03:13 PM
Believe it or not who wrote that is our CRJ Fleet Manager.

Pntbllr233
04-04-2018, 03:13 PM
Just say you needed to get more fuel since we shouldnít use ďpaper alternates.Ē

Frip
04-04-2018, 05:12 PM
The message subject title was "Non-Compliant Flight Crews"


(Reportedly... )

Castle Bravo
04-04-2018, 05:22 PM
Simple solution...EVERY CA needs to add some fuel this week. Ya know, icing/snow and all, may have to hold...

trip
04-04-2018, 05:34 PM
Wow! What a huge liability. Disciplinary action for Captains whom want some extra fuel, unreal.

BIueSideUp
04-04-2018, 05:40 PM
The very second that someone comes up short on fuel itíll be ďhe was the captain and should have reasonably been expected to make a judgment in that situation that more fuel shouldíve been addedĒ

trip
04-04-2018, 05:44 PM
Curious, do you guys have a fuel tankering program. Buy where its cheap and drag it round trip because some bean-counter promised higher ups huge savings?

Ijustlikeflying
04-04-2018, 06:13 PM
Welp no matter what punishment they throw on us Iím sure it canít be worse than a min fuel situation, with the possibility of losing your certifcate or even worse dying. So they can do whatever they want. I wonít be taking aircraft with a sketchy amount of fuel. Sorry.

LowValueAviator
04-04-2018, 07:02 PM
Welp no matter what punishment they throw on us Iím sure it canít be worse than a min fuel situation, with the possibility of losing your certifcate or even worse dying. So they can do whatever they want. I wonít be taking aircraft with a sketchy amount of fuel. Sorry.

Never say "it can't get worse than this". Every time I said it, the company proved me wrong.

The reality is most of us will not push the flight that far. If we have to, we will divert. If that happens a few times, the company will start adding more fuel. Either that or create a "divert list"!

LowValueAviator
04-04-2018, 07:13 PM
Another thought...I hope the company doesn't count the "Captain Add List" against you when it's time to flow.

JulesWinfield
04-04-2018, 08:18 PM
Didn't an Eagle crew land at an unapproved GA airport because they got closed in and had min fuel?

1Taco
04-04-2018, 08:58 PM
If you carry fire extinguishers on the plane and donít ever use them, do they add you to a list as well? Asking for a friend.

Al Czervik
04-05-2018, 05:03 AM
This can’t be real.

BluePAX
04-05-2018, 05:08 AM
If it is real, lawyers will have a field day in court. To say their clients got added to a naughty list for being more cautious/safe, unreal.

LineUpAndPay
04-05-2018, 05:09 AM
This canít be real.

This. Can multiple sources confirm this? Or is this a post to just stir up the pot.

WesternSkies
04-05-2018, 05:19 AM
...go a couple years without balling one up and people forget what we are doing here.

CaptJackSparrow
04-05-2018, 05:30 AM
This. Can multiple sources confirm this? Or is this a post to just stir up the pot.

It's totally real and that is verbatim what the HI6 says from the CRJ program manager himself. It was sent to all CRJ captains.

ChickHicks
04-05-2018, 05:32 AM
Itís for real. Talked to a friend of mine, and he got sent to the CPO for adding 500lbs. In the most professional manner he explained why he wanted every pound of fuel. CP was very impressed and wanted the Captain to talk to the dispatchers. (And this guy is a 175 captain)

This should not be an issue! Putting captains on a ďlistĒ is despicable.

I added fuel yesterday. Was given 250lbs for taxi, wrong arrival flow into DFW, and last fix on the arrival should be at 11,000 ft, but was filed at FL240. GMAFB.

90% of the time, fuel is not an issue. But when the filed arrival fuel gets low, you start nitpicking the release. And all sorts of things pop up.

LineUpAndPay
04-05-2018, 05:40 AM
Itís for real. Talked to a friend of mine, and he got sent to the CPO for adding 500lbs. In the most professional manner he explained why he wanted every pound of fuel. CP was very impressed and wanted the Captain to talk to the dispatchers. (And this guy is a 175 captain)

This should not be an issue! Putting captains on a ďlistĒ is despicable.

I added fuel yesterday. Was given 250lbs for taxi, wrong arrival flow into DFW, and last fix on the arrival should be at 11,000 ft, but was filed at FL240. GMAFB.

90% of the time, fuel is not an issue. But when the filed arrival fuel gets low, you start nitpicking the release. And all sorts of things pop up.

Yeesh. Before I upgraded for a couple months prior I was asking every captain I flew with if they have had any push back from the CPO in regards to captain add. Every captain I flew with said they never heard anything. But there were all sorts of rumors floating out there and so many stories that it is hard to know what's real without direct first hand experience. I remember when they were dragging all the LCA down to dfw a few years back to discuss a new fuel policy and shortly thereafter basically every release was tight on fuel so more and more captains fought back with adding, and still none of them said they heard anything from the company. So I hope this isn't a new change in the wind. But it wouldn't surprise me if it were. I know other regionals are fueled no where near how well we are. I'm not saying that we're better or not, or that because they get away with it, so we should be able to squeak by on fumes as well, I'm just saying that I know we are one of the more generously fueled regionals and I have always appreciated that. Hope it's not changing.

bigtime209
04-05-2018, 06:37 AM
This. Can multiple sources confirm this? Or is this a post to just stir up the pot.

Sadly, itís 100% real. It was sent by the CRJ Fleet Manager to CRJ guys. You can see a screenshot of the actual HI6 on TalkAirline.

Inop2
04-05-2018, 06:42 AM
The news is always looking for a scary flying story. Since this email has been confirmed please leak it to a freind or family member in the Chicago news business. Ask to remain anonymous. Donít wait for an accident.

When practical, donít ask for fuel if it will force you to return to the gate for going below min TO fuel. By asking for fuel you are putting a bandaid on a poorly thought out process. 2 engine taxi with APU on.

LineUpAndPay
04-05-2018, 06:49 AM
Sam just sent out a fast read about this.

LowValueAviator
04-05-2018, 06:52 AM
Sam Pool just sent this out:


"April 5, 2018

Fellow Envoy Pilots Ė

A hot topic of conversation this week has been fuel. AAG wants Envoy to carry and use the minimum. AAG has retained a "Fuel Czar" who monitors fuel usage throughout the system and is shining a bright spotlight on Envoy's fuel use. He wants Envoy to fuel so minimally that diversions and all that go with them Ė missed connections, timed out crews, hotel stays for passengers, etc. Ė are virtually assured. As pilots, our mission is to get the planes and passengers where they need to go, safely and on time. Our experience with the weather and ATC systems is supposed to be a part of the fueling equation, and indeed is mandated by the FARs. However, lately management's squeeze for economic perfection has gone over the top in the form of harassment and threatened discipline for pilots who attempt to apply their experience and request additional fuel. This is not acceptable.



This week the CRJ Fleet Manager sent an ill-conceived and poorly worded letter to CRJ pilots that was perceived as threatening pilots for doing the very duty demanded by the FM1 and FARs. This is not the first such email, nor is it the first such threat. While perhaps the most graphic and honest display of management's thinking, the CRJ fleet message is not an anomaly. The scope of the matter is systemic and reaches every level of our operation.



Pilots should know that the dispatchers are feeling similar pressure, and their supervisors are demanding accountability for every pound of fuel that exceeds the bare minimum. Dispatchers aren't fueling you to the minimum for amusement, they're doing it because the Sword of the Fuel Czar is over their heads too. The pressure for economy is setting up a pilot-versus-dispatcher and pilot-versus-Flight Department dynamic that should not exist.



The FM1 is an FAA-approved document, and provides fueling guidelines for many scenarios, including weather and turbulence. Over the past few months, pilots have attempted to work with dispatchers to obtain additional fuel for weather, turbulence or ATC per the FM1, only to be told that the flights will not be given additional fuel except via CAPT ADD. This is troubling for two reasons: the FAA-approved FM1 is not automatically being followed, and our Captains are now 'on the radar' for taking CAPT ADD fuel.



There is another point of consternation from the Company: pilots who request contingency fuel for a given scenario and then don't use it. The Flight Department has recently called pilots onto the carpet if they request additional fuel for weather or ATC and then don't use it. The message is clear: don't ask for insurance unless you're guaranteed to use it. This is beyond unacceptable.



In the coming days and weeks your ALPA team will interface with Company personnel to more clearly identify expectations and shortcomings, and seek resolution to the challenges detailed above. We will be transmitting additional emails on the subject of fuel that we hope are educational and helpful. In the meantime, here are some basic guidelines:



∑ The FARs and FM1 are clear, the pilot in command and the dispatcher MUST AGREE on the Dispatch Release/Flight Plan, including the amount of fuel for a given flight. If you do not agree with what the dispatcher has planned, have a courteous and professional conversation as to what you believe is necessary. Calls are recorded and calm, reasonable professionals always sound better.



∑ Do not accept a fuel plan that you are not comfortable with under any circumstances. The PIC and Dispatcher MUST agree. If you don't agree, don't accept it. Take the necessary time to produce a fuel plan with which you are comfortable. Do not be pressured or rushed.



∑ If you have to argue for fuel, or if fuel is originally planned in a manner inconsistent with FM1, consider filing an ASAP. Write down as many details as possible. Save your original release and any subsequently modified release(s). Utilize ALPA resources before filing the ASAP. Do not file an ASAP if you are unhappy with the fuel but decide to accept the release anyway.



∑ If you are called on the carpet for fuel considerations, consider filing an ASAP. Again, record as many details as possible and utilize ALPA resources before filing the ASAP.



We want Envoy to be a safe, efficient, on-time machine for AA. However, we are mandated by the FM1 and FARs to be the last line of defense against the corporation's natural tendency to do the bare minimum. Do not take your role lightly.



Be smart. Be reasonable. Be the final authority as to the acceptance of the flight/fuel plan. All of ALPA is aligned behind you.



In Unity,


Sam Pool
MEC Chairman"

LowValueAviator
04-05-2018, 06:54 AM
My question is, why isn't ALPA "talking" to the FAA instead of the company?

CaptJackSparrow
04-05-2018, 07:09 AM
My question is, why isn't ALPA "talking" to the FAA instead of the company?

I wonder the same thing. This isn't a topic to negotiate with management. This is a safety issue that the FAA needs to crack down on. This isn't the first time something this egregious has happened here. That CRJ manager needs to be fired.

Pedro4President
04-05-2018, 07:27 AM
My question is, why isn't ALPA "talking" to the FAA instead of the company?

"Obviously" they can "ONLY" talk to "one" at "a" time.

ChickHicks
04-05-2018, 07:30 AM
And now youíre going to have brand new, junior captains who donít have the experience nor the confidence to speak up about it.

LineUpAndPay
04-05-2018, 07:33 AM
And now youíre going to have brand new, junior captains who donít have the experience nor the confidence to speak up about it.

Exactly. They've tried this push before, but there was a lot of push back. I bet now that there are tons of new Captains with very few years in service they see this as their chance to set a "new normal" fueling baseline. There won't be near as much push back as a few years ago.

Aviatrx
04-05-2018, 07:44 AM
Iím pretty sure THAT is a legit e-mail. If so, he is brave to send it. That being said, on the 145, I have had very little to no pushback requesting gas for various reasons. I have personally had Captains coach me that if your arrival gas is less than __, than you need to request add fuel, which is just ignorant. As a Captain, you should be able to read a little deeper into the situation before asking for gas ďJust becauseĒ. If you are short on you flight plan you need to be proactive, and let the dispatch and SOC know something is not adding up. Unfortunately making the determination on gas, requires some experience which many folks at Envoy are lacking. Regardless, letís teach these Captains and not threaten them. If they canít be taught, then maybe they should be dealt with.

highflyer1980
04-05-2018, 08:45 AM
Captains.... Declare min fuel. When looking at the fuel projection on the FMS and itís giving you the willies, declare min fuel! Leave a paper trail, with mounds of evidence will give us and dispatchers more ammunition fighting corporate policies. Donít wait until itís too late and you have an emergency or divert. The pipeline is simple to do, very little details needed.

I do not condone the companyís actions though. This is wrong on so many levels. Anyone heard of PSA or PDT having this issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

pitchattitude
04-05-2018, 09:12 AM
Extra fuel is insurance against unforeseen circumstances. Nobody likes to pay for it, but you have to have it. Itís the cost of doing business and a hedge against a potentially MUCH larger expense. A return to gate, a divert or something potentially disastrous. We hope to never use our insurance. Should we be penalized for not filing a claim every time we fly as well?

There are far too many moving pieces to plan and control everything. All it takes is several minutes of ďturn left 60 degrees for spacingĒ to burn through any cushion of fuel.

Inop2
04-05-2018, 01:37 PM
Letís put a number to this... those that enjoy high power math. How much extra fuel is burned TO CARRY 500 lbs of fuel on 750 mi trip? I know this number will vary but letís get a rough order of magnitude.

Knowone seems to concerned at DFW while we sit burning a **** load of fuel while the ramp personnel finish their conversations and take the long way out to guide our ac in.

Chicken Little
04-05-2018, 01:42 PM
Letís put a number to this... those that enjoy high power math. How much extra fuel is burned TO CARRY 500 lbs of fuel on 750 mi trip?

Probably about the same as 3 non-rev passengers... except I can't use 3 non-revs to get to the alternate.

Aviatrx
04-05-2018, 01:55 PM
Check your company e- mail for RWís apology letter!

ChickHicks
04-05-2018, 02:01 PM
Check your company e- mail for RWís apology letter!

Ha! That makes me feel sooo much better! (Sarc)

I hope that manager is reprimanded out of a job.

highfarfast
04-05-2018, 02:07 PM
I hope that manager is reprimanded out of a job.

Actually, I'd be more interested in seeing that whoever made that manager feel like he needed to manage in that way be reprimanded out of a job. When I read the OP, it sounds to me like a manager pushing the policies he's been given by someone else.

Tellheritwasntu
04-05-2018, 02:08 PM
Ha! That makes me feel sooo much better! (Sarc)

I hope that manager is reprimanded out of a job.

Personally I'll be watching for our updated seniority list on the alpa website.

Hawkeye0914
04-05-2018, 02:29 PM
Going to be interesting to see how this goes forward.

OldBiff
04-05-2018, 02:45 PM
How is the CRJ fleet manager that sent this even a pilot? Homie had delusions of being RW junior until his world got shattered.

Iíve been on hundreds of flights where I didnít burn my contingency fuel, use a back up generator/redundant system, or blow the fire bottle (much less both of them). We should get rid of all these expensive ďextrasĒ to save the company money. Speaking of which how do you all feel about the new Greatly Valued Single Pilot Program (GVSPP) theyíre launching in the fall? Someone at HQ heard that the military has single pilot jets and saw the $$$!

SullyJR
04-05-2018, 02:48 PM
Itís good this got so much attention from everyone. The company knows they went about this one all wrong. Pilots get harassed on a daily basis from management at this company but this time it was just a little too far over the line.

Cpt Rex Kramer
04-05-2018, 02:54 PM
No one seems to concerned at DFW while we sit burning a **** load of fuel while the ramp personnel finish their conversations and take the long way out to guide our ac in.

^^^THIS!!!^^^

Or plug in the GPU but not turn it on or not even plug it in at all!

moon
04-05-2018, 03:11 PM
Maybe the survey shined a light on how things are being handled and management is actually reacting positively to that? That's my hope. That or FAA got involved

SilentLurker
04-05-2018, 03:33 PM
My question is, why isn't ALPA "talking" to the FAA instead of the company?



Why donít you call your ALPA rep and find out. How do you know they are not?

Step by step people. Evidence gathering is needed. You donít go to the FAA with complains. You go with evidence (not just a couple HI6 messages).

Follow the Guidelines, and call your rep with questions. This applies to FOs as well.

Re-read the FASTREAD a few times. Well written, with purpose.

Pntbllr233
04-05-2018, 03:36 PM
This has nothing to do with the survey. No one would have complained that we take too much fuel. That was purely management. I hope everyone mentioned our horrible ramp crews (some are great!). We do the work trying to minimize delays only for someone to ruin that at either end by not going a ****. They have zero initiative and I frankly donít blame them. I just hope that itís addressed. Nothing like watching your commute close up because you waited 5 minutes for ramp crews sitting on their asses.

SilentLurker
04-05-2018, 03:42 PM
QUOTE=Inop2;2565776]Know-one seems to concerned at DFW while we sit burning a **** load of fuel while the ramp personnel finish their conversations and take the long way out to guide our ac in.[/QUOTE]



^^^THIS!!!^^^



Or plug in the GPU but not turn it on or not even plug it in at all!



^^^^^^^^THISSSSSSSSSS^^^^^^^^^ ORD! How much was pay for the GPUs??? Yet Ramper connect it but donít plug it in often! I hear the GPU cart running but no power at many times WTFlip!

Majority of crew members Iíve flown with want to save fuel. Some reason Management think pilot are the problem. I donít understand why!????

LowValueAviator
04-05-2018, 04:35 PM
Why donít you call your ALPA rep and find out. How do you know they are not?

Step by step people. Evidence gathering is needed. You donít go to the FAA with complains. You go with evidence (not just a couple HI6 messages).

Follow the Guidelines, and call your rep with questions. This applies to FOs as well.

Re-read the FASTREAD a few times. Well written, with purpose.

So just what kind of evidence do they need? Captain Add Fuel = A trip to the Chief Pilots Office.

If you think all of this is about a couple of HI6 messages you are mistaken. The facts are, there is still a list tracking captain add fuel and that list is used by the company to coerce captains into not adding fuel.

Even if they don't call us into the chief pilot's office, it can still silently, cause a personnel ding in your file. Try flowing through with that.

Cpt Rex Kramer
04-05-2018, 04:44 PM
Here's a down-n-dirty back of the envelope calculation of the cost of carrying extra fuel on the 175 interpolated from some Jeppesen data and a few wild ass guesses:

*This is not thoroughly scienced out, verified, vetted or otherwise reliable, but it provides some frame of reference. Lots of room for different approaches or interpretations. Do not use for flight planning :)

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3711&stc=1&d=1522975280

moon
04-05-2018, 05:21 PM
This has nothing to do with the survey. No one would have complained that we take too much fuel. That was purely management. I hope everyone mentioned our horrible ramp crews (some are great!). We do the work trying to minimize delays only for someone to ruin that at either end by not going a ****. They have zero initiative and I frankly donít blame them. I just hope that itís addressed. Nothing like watching your commute close up because you waited 5 minutes for ramp crews sitting on their asses.

Not saying people complained about having extra fuel. Was saying RW email apologizing about the threatening email was a reaction to pilots complaining about the stick mentality shown by most managers.

DollaBillz
04-05-2018, 05:43 PM
This has nothing to do with the survey. No one would have complained that we take too much fuel. That was purely management. I hope everyone mentioned our horrible ramp crews (some are great!). We do the work trying to minimize delays only for someone to ruin that at either end by not going a ****. They have zero initiative and I frankly donít blame them. I just hope that itís addressed. Nothing like watching your commute close up because you waited 5 minutes for ramp crews sitting on their asses.

I've often wondered how much fuel we waste on the 5AM flight from LBB-DFW. There have been multiple times where we get to the gate and the rampers don't start their shift for another 10-15 minutes so we just sit there with an engine going.

in2deep
04-05-2018, 06:06 PM
I feel like the CRJ manager was told to make everyone more conservative when using CA ADD, but blew it way out of porportion. No way a pilot would ever so strongly advise the PIC to not act in a way that ensures safety.

mdot
04-05-2018, 06:12 PM
Iím pretty sure THAT is a legit e-mail. If so, he is brave to send it. That being said, on the 145, I have had very little to no pushback requesting gas for various reasons. I have personally had Captains coach me that if your arrival gas is less than __, than you need to request add fuel, which is just ignorant. As a Captain, you should be able to read a little deeper into the situation before asking for gas ďJust becauseĒ. If you are short on you flight plan you need to be proactive, and let the dispatch and SOC know something is not adding up. Unfortunately making the determination on gas, requires some experience which many folks at Envoy are lacking. Regardless, letís teach these Captains and not threaten them. If they canít be taught, then maybe they should be dealt with.

Deal with the gas?

Inop2
04-05-2018, 06:49 PM
Here's a down-n-dirty back of the envelope calculation of the cost of carrying extra fuel on the 175 interpolated from some Jeppesen data and a few wild ass guesses:

*This is not thoroughly scienced out, verified, vetted or otherwise reliable, but it provides some frame of reference. Lots of room for different approaches or interpretations. Do not use for flight planning :)

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3711&stc=1&d=1522975280

The cost to carry 500 lbs of extra fuel on board is 3.9 gallons (26lbs) or $7.21 at $1.85 a gal?

griff312
04-05-2018, 07:25 PM
So apparently it's ok to ferry 8K lbs of fuel from a cheaper airport, weight restrict the flight, and boot 2 paying passengers on a booked full fight, the last flight of the night. But God forbid I ask for 500 lbs CA ADD on a different flight. Got it...
FWIW, I don't think the ord fleet manager did this on his own. That influence and pressure had to come from somewhere higher up. I think maybe he dove on to the grenade, and in turn brought this management fuel naziing into full light.

Aviatrx
04-05-2018, 07:31 PM
Deal with the bad apples

highfarfast
04-05-2018, 07:51 PM
So apparently it's ok to ferry 8K lbs of fuel from a cheaper airport, weight restrict the flight, and boot 2 paying passengers on a booked full fight, the last flight of the night. But God forbid I ask for 500 lbs CA ADD on a different flight. Got it...
FWIW, I don't think the ord fleet manager did this on his own. That influence and pressure had to come from somewhere higher up. I think maybe he dove on to the grenade, and in turn brought this management fuel naziing into full light.

Been biting my tong not to say this because I didn't want to derail the thread. But god damn you must have been working the flight I was trying to commute home on 2 weeks ago. EXACT SAME THING. Good weather, no alternate needed, last flight of the night. Ferry fuel was the excuse to weight restrict the flight, which is common on this route. But this time, they needed two volunteers from paying customers. Really!? It's frustrating enough to not have access to the jump-seat for ferry fuel but you're gonna kick off paying passengers too?
BTW, for those that don't know, once it's determined that the flight is weight restricted, ops will not approve a jumpseater for any reason. Even if it can be determined later that weight will allow it. It takes a strong willed captain to make it happen at that point.

Name User
04-05-2018, 08:38 PM
The cost to carry 500 lbs of extra fuel on board is 3.9 gallons (26lbs) or $7.21 at $1.85 a gal?

At out stations it can be quite pricey. Upwards of $7/gal at some of the places I would go on the East Coast when regular jetA was around $2.50.

So an extra 500 lbs is 75 gallons, at $3.50/gal that is $260 on just that one flight.

That was how it was explained to me at least.

Pedro4President
04-06-2018, 03:12 AM
At out stations it can be quite pricey. Upwards of $7/gal at some of the places I would go on the East Coast when regular jetA was around $2.50.

So an extra 500 lbs is 75 gallons, at $3.50/gal that is $260 on just that one flight.

That was how it was explained to me at least.
Just curious where the 3.50 came from. Is that the average cost of jetA?

Skip0927
04-06-2018, 03:39 AM
$3.50 is retail but airlines buy JET A in bulk from wholesalers (Usually WorldFuel Corp) and it is in the neighborhood of $1.50-2 a gallon right now.

Al Czervik
04-06-2018, 03:40 AM
I wonder how much fuel is burned waiting for rampers?

Frip
04-06-2018, 04:03 AM
"BTW, for those that don't know, once it's determined that the flight is weight restricted, ops will not approve a jumpseater for any reason. Even if it can be determined later that weight will allow it."

I can't fix Envoy, but when y'all flow, leave that "lesson learned" and any trepidation about adding fuel behind. It ain't like that at mainline, no one is going to say "boo" about adding fuel, and with very rare and easily dealt with exceptions, everyone will gladly do what ever you can think of to ease any weight restrictions in order to get butts in seats. Jumpseats and nonrevs included. All ya' gotta' do is ask, and have a plan, and let 'em know what you want.

Same idea goes for training, dealing with crew schedule to a large degree, dealing with the flight office, etc., from what I have heard and seen.

Pedro4President
04-06-2018, 04:58 AM
Well RW just sent an email out apologizing and saying the guy was reprimanded.

I just sent in an application for the new job posting.

Inop2
04-06-2018, 05:29 AM
I wonder how much fuel is burned waiting for rampers?

On the 175. Engine idle fuel burn is 500 lbs/hour and the APU burns 250/hour. In other words, 12.5 lbs a min.

Someone mentioned earlier....mainline guys look at you with surprise if asked about company pressure on fuel. Never have to arm wrestle with the dispatcher for more. Plus, 2 engine start at the gate is common practice. An Airbus or 737 burns 3x as much fuel AT IDLE than the 175 does in cruise.

Name User
04-06-2018, 06:13 AM
$3.50 is retail but airlines buy JET A in bulk from wholesalers (Usually WorldFuel Corp) and it is in the neighborhood of $1.50-2 a gallon right now.

At hubs yes; outstations no.

Like I said I saw $7/gal once and that was with fuel at $2.50.

Name User
04-06-2018, 06:18 AM
On the 175. Engine idle fuel burn is 500 lbs/hour and the APU burns 250/hour. In other words, 12.5 lbs a min.

Someone mentioned earlier....mainline guys look at you with surprise if asked about company pressure on fuel. Never have to arm wrestle with the dispatcher for more. Plus, 2 engine start at the gate is common practice. An Airbus or 737 burns 3x as much fuel AT IDLE than the 175 does in cruise.

Roughly 1600 lbs at idle (800/side) on the Airbus give or take. 737 is similar.

You only burn 500 lbs an hour total at cruise? I don't think that is anywhere near correct.

Our avg taxi time in DFW is around 12 minutes.

With the APU running (400 lbs/hr) and one engine running (800 lbs/hr) you're at 1200 lbs/hr. Not accounting for increased fuel flow to SE taxi on the operating engine.

In most scenarios it's a wash or close to it.

RomeoBravo
04-06-2018, 07:07 AM
QUOTE=Inop2;2565776]Know-one seems to concerned at DFW while we sit burning a **** load of fuel while the ramp personnel finish their conversations and take the long way out to guide our ac in.







^^^^^^^^THISSSSSSSSSS^^^^^^^^^ ORD! How much was pay for the GPUs??? Yet Ramper connect it but donít plug it in often! I hear the GPU cart running but no power at many times WTFlip!

Majority of crew members Iíve flown with want to save fuel. Some reason Management think pilot are the problem. I donít understand why!????[/QUOTE]



Agreed. There are more effective ways to conserve costs where it applies to fuel. Programs like these require a team effort, stating pilots will be on a list for requesting more fuel is simply a bully approach.

How about:
Dispatchers and Pilot groups education regarding the new policy, why, etc

Ensure the flight plans at least account for the correct expected crossing altitudes on the arrivals (especially). Fuel burn is higher at the lower altitudes however, they have us flight planned at 18000 on the base leg coming into ORD as an example. They claim the flight plan software builds it that way. Well.......... fix it.

Ramp/Airport Ops should ensure Ground power is available at all gates, PC air should be available at all gates both of these should be connected within 5 mins of block in

Reduction of APU usage at gate till 15 mins prior to departure, thereís fuel savings there, thereís noise abatement that makes working around the airplane a little more less risky, both pilots/ramp/mx/support personnel can benefit from this

They should be reminded no one is taking the extra fuel home, it stays in the a/c for the next flight

All Iím saying is there should be a wholesome approach and not an attack on any single group

I am sure others can add more that can be done, again a wholistic approach is needed. Communication of any plan works best we for all involved.

Just my $.02

Oh RE email was an attempt to cover the company in the event a legal issue arises

AAG & Envoy management has failed miserably here again and has only antagonized the pilot group even furthermore.

Keep up the good fight my brothers and sisters, donít be discouraged and always remain professional


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ag386
04-06-2018, 07:49 AM
Well RW just sent an email out apologizing and saying the guy was reprimanded.

I just sent in an application for the new job posting.

Eagle/Envoy has been the same for at least the past two decades. Management wields a HUGE stick and you are threatened at every turn if you don't mold yourself into the exact parameters the company demands. Very little, to absolute zero carrot offered anytime. And by a carrot, you might get some crappy dinner if you happen to work on a holiday like Thanksgiving and are at the airport between a certain set of hours.

For the above case, this kind of stuff has been happening for years. Likely the guys above the person who sent this email out told him to do it. When the pushback and visibility got to be too much, an apology and lets move on. Later, after this dies down, they will certainly try a different tactic complete with threats and perhaps just word it differently.

The flow is just about the only thing that keeps a few guys hanging on I'm sure. I would be very concerned if I was hired after about 2010 at Envoy in regards to the flow getting me to AA. Look at the forced upgrade disaster recently. Envoy is short Captains and eventually it will likely get to the point where the company will NEED every one on property just to operate. Expect a temporary halt in the flow, and some change in the flow with lower numbers later on and maybe a few bucks thrown your way.

blizzue
04-06-2018, 08:25 AM
Joe, let it go.

Flightcap
04-06-2018, 02:06 PM
Over at RAH we see the fuel programs from all three legacies. AA is by far the most stringent and sometimes downright sketchy when it comes to fuel.

Last year I was in recurrent training with the former E-170 Program Manager. Fuel came up in conversation and he told the story of how AA came to us around a decade ago and said "You guys are carrying too much gas." "How do you know that?" we said. Their reply: "Our bean counters have looked at your diversion numbers vs. everyone else's and you are diverting less than any other carrier in our system. That must mean you are carrying way too much fuel."

Al Czervik
04-06-2018, 04:35 PM
Over at RAH we see the fuel programs from all three legacies. AA is by far the most stringent and sometimes downright sketchy when it comes to fuel.

Last year I was in recurrent training with the former E-170 Program Manager. Fuel came up in conversation and he told the story of how AA came to us around a decade ago and said "You guys are carrying too much gas." "How do you know that?" we said. Their reply: "Our bean counters have looked at your diversion numbers vs. everyone else's and you are diverting less than any other carrier in our system. That must mean you are carrying way too much fuel."

Not buying that.

ChickHicks
04-07-2018, 04:26 AM
Just my 2 cents.

Had an envoy dispatcher on the Jumpseat a few years ago, when they started this fuel initiative. He told me, his bosses would rather see us divert, then the dispatcher give additional fuel.

Then just last week, I had a dispatcher from RAH on the Jumpseat. They said Delta never wanted diversions or return to gates. But AA was always bare minimum on the fuel. But this person always filed arrival fuel, no less than 3100-3200lbs. And last leg to the hotel was .78 or better. I thought that was nice of them.

BIueSideUp
04-07-2018, 04:29 AM
How is the CRJ fleet manager that sent this even a pilot? Homie had delusions of being RW junior until his world got shattered.

Iíve been on hundreds of flights where I didnít burn my contingency fuel, use a back up generator/redundant system, or blow the fire bottle (much less both of them). We should get rid of all these expensive ďextrasĒ to save the company money. Speaking of which how do you all feel about the new Greatly Valued Single Pilot Program (GVSPP) theyíre launching in the fall? Someone at HQ heard that the military has single pilot jets and saw the $$$!

Just spit my coffee. Thank you for this ^

CaptJackSparrow
04-07-2018, 05:34 AM
Just my 2 cents.

Had an envoy dispatcher on the Jumpseat a few years ago, when they started this fuel initiative. He told me, his bosses would rather see us divert, then the dispatcher give additional fuel.

Then just last week, I had a dispatcher from RAH on the Jumpseat. They said Delta never wanted diversions or return to gates. But AA was always bare minimum on the fuel. But this person always filed arrival fuel, no less than 3100-3200lbs. And last leg to the hotel was .78 or better. I thought that was nice of them.

I had a similar talk with a dispatcher last year. He said that basically they'll give us the minimum fuel and when they exceed their diversion "quota" for the month per a specific base that only then will they start putting on a bit more fuel.

Inop2
04-07-2018, 07:27 AM
Roughly 1600 lbs at idle (800/side) on the Airbus give or take. 737 is similar.

You only burn 500 lbs an hour total at cruise? I don't think that is anywhere near correct.

Our avg taxi time in DFW is around 12 minutes.

With the APU running (400 lbs/hr) and one engine running (800 lbs/hr) you're at 1200 lbs/hr. Not accounting for increased fuel flow to SE taxi on the operating engine.

In most scenarios it's a wash or close to it.

Thanks for the correction. Jump sat yesterday and the Airbus was burning 650lbs aside at idle.

ORDinary
04-07-2018, 08:03 AM
If anyone gets CA ADD and needs an additional explanation, here is an extra one to add: almost none of envoy's flight plans plan for a correct top of descent based on published arrivals. Be sure to add this to your list of reasons why you need the fuel, since sabre doesn't calculate TOD based on published STAR altitudes.

This is insanity. Considering it is the Captain who must agree to accept the fuel planning, NOT calling for add fuel when you believe you need it is non-compliant, according to the FARs.

E175 Driver
04-07-2018, 08:41 AM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

Inop2
04-07-2018, 09:25 AM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

Dust off your resume my friend and submit it to corporate. You are management material! Juuuust jokin.

ORDinary
04-07-2018, 11:47 AM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

griff312
04-07-2018, 12:28 PM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

I'm betting yours will be the first.

Inop2
04-07-2018, 03:12 PM
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/your-online-secrets/201409/internet-trolls-are-narcissists-psychopaths-and-sadists

Useful read... just discovered my wife is a psychopath... that explains a lot.

EmbaeDriver
04-07-2018, 07:13 PM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

True, but we never know what can happen

Wink
04-07-2018, 09:12 PM
Captains.... Declare min fuel. When looking at the fuel projection on the FMS and itís giving you the willies, declare min fuel! Leave a paper trail, with mounds of evidence will give us and dispatchers more ammunition fighting corporate policies. Donít wait until itís too late and you have an emergency or divert. The pipeline is simple to do, very little details needed.

I do not condone the companyís actions though. This is wrong on so many levels. Anyone heard of PSA or PDT having this issue?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Current PDT CA here. No. Never even heard of someone getting any sort of pushback from a dispatcher about it, or experienced it myself. When I've asked for more fuel in the past, we just amended the release and called the fueler.... that was it....

Weekendwarrior2
04-07-2018, 11:20 PM
Current PDT CA here. No. Never even heard of someone getting any sort of pushback from a dispatcher about it, or experienced it myself. When I've asked for more fuel in the past, we just amended the release and called the fueler.... that was it....

Also, for those who don't know yet. If you are in CCI go to more -->FOS Outage-->and then from there you can type in DEP/DEST for any AA/ENY flight in the system. This is just a quick sampling that I did, but almost EVERY mainline flight has some sort of BUFR fuel added by dispatch and way more arrival fuel. Check mainlines arrival fuel compared to ours. Just because they are mainline and we're Envoy doesn't mean we should be arriving with less fuel than them.

Example: RDU-DFW
ENY 3355 Today (4/8) , Planned Arrival Fuel 01/10 mins (1713 Departure)
**Release Notes: Filed FL280 to avoid forecast upper turb.
AAL 2753 Today (4/8), Planned Arrival Fuel 02/02 mins (1545 Departure)
**Release Notes: Add fuel for possible taxi out delays/ ride improvements. Flight plan altitude capped due to turb.

Notice the difference? Both dispatchers noted the enroute upper level turbulence. Only one added additional fuel for ride improvements. The envoy release had no buffer fuel or anything. Just a casual hey, we filed you lower but you still have minimal arrival fuel. If you are working a flight that also has a mainline flight, start comparing the releases. Just because we are flying a smaller plane doesn't mean we should be arriving with an hours less fuel than mainline. If I was flying my family on a flight I sure as sh**t wouldn't want that.

Frip
04-08-2018, 03:05 AM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

That is not the point, nor even remotely the reason for carrying adequate fuel or Captains adding fuel.

If you really don't get that, please go find a desk to fly somewhere, or a job writing stupid shyt that actual pilots can ignore.

Pedro4President
04-08-2018, 03:40 AM
That is not the point, nor even remotely the reason for carrying adequate fuel or Captains adding fuel.

If you really don't get that, please go find a desk to fly somewhere, or a job writing stupid shyt that actual pilots can ignore.

Next time, if you read something that sounds too stupid to be serious, the it probably is someone just kidding around. He doesn't mean or believe anything he actually writes. It's taking up a persona that hyper stereotypes a millennial.

Frip
04-08-2018, 04:06 AM
It's 2018, they make all these cool emoji-thingies to indicate sarcasm, humor, wonder, etc...

In the dark ages mb posters who desired to be understood would sometimes indicate those sort of things that might easily be misconstrued in a print only format by actually typing out the words, thusly... {sarcasm alert...} or such.

E175 Driver
04-08-2018, 04:46 AM
I'm betting yours will be the first.

That will be up to me to decide when I get LCE on this bid buddy.:rolleyes:

AeroEnvoy
04-08-2018, 01:55 PM
Next time, if you read something that sounds too stupid to be serious, the it probably is someone just kidding around. He doesn't mean or believe anything he actually writes. It's taking up a persona that hyper stereotypes a millennial.

You're probably right. Come to think about it, he only makes random comments but never actually argues with anyone about the statement he made which means he can't actually believe it otherwise he'd stand up for it. It's like hardlemonade, there's no way he's actually bob Ross. Bob Ross' a painter not a pilot.:D

LowValueAviator
04-10-2018, 08:46 AM
You guys are too paranoid. How many planes have ran out of gas?

None. How many diverted? How many landed with amber fuel qty? Is there checklists in our AOM Vol 1's/QRHs for amber fuel?

How accurate is dispatch flight planning? What altitudes do you actually cross Beree/Seever/Vktry at? What altitude does the release say?

How much taxi fuel do you really use? Deicing today? Landing north or south today? Will you accept that flight plan all the way down the 1400 mile front or deviate?

Better get a handle on this stuff quick, "Captain". Smarter people have flamed out their careers on less stuff than this.

HardLemonade
04-10-2018, 09:03 AM
Does anyone know the difference between razor burn and herpes? Asking for a friend...

Seaplane
04-10-2018, 09:17 AM
Does anyone know the difference between razor burn and herpes? Asking for a friend...

If you havenít shaved in a month then itís herpes

EmbaeDriver
04-10-2018, 10:55 AM
None. How many diverted? How many landed with amber fuel qty? Is there checklists in our AOM Vol 1's/QRHs for amber fuel?

How accurate is dispatch flight planning? What altitudes do you actually cross Beree/Seever/Vktry at? What altitude does the release say?

So true
How much taxi fuel do you really use? Deicing today? Landing north or south today? Will you accept that flight plan all the way down the 1400 mile front or deviate?

Better get a handle on this stuff quick, "Captain". Smarter people have flamed out their careers on less stuff than this.

This is so true

ViewSonic
04-16-2018, 09:32 AM
Fuel Planning
April 5th, 2018
RE: Fuel Planning

I want to apologize on behalf of the entire Flight Operations Management Team. Recently a message went out from one of our Fleet Managers that had a threatening tone with regards to the use of CAPT ADD. This Manager was immediately reprimanded, because this is not in line with the guiding principles of our company and contrary to our culture of respect where Envoyís goal is to maintain a workplace free from any attempt to intimidate or coerce another person.

For all of us at Envoy, our first Ė and top Ė priority is the safety of our co-workers and customers.

The Captain and Dispatcher are jointly responsible for all aspects of pre-flight planning, including fuel requirements. It is company policy to dispatch with the minimum quantity of fuel necessary after considering of safety, regulations, customer service and operating economics. However, if the judgement and experience of the Captain and Dispatcher indicate a need for more fuel, it is vital both parties clearly agree and understand the reasons why.

It is important that each of us, Captain and Dispatcher, understand the assumptions by which our flight plans are built to effectively execute the mission above. We accomplish that through training. To that end, Flight Operations Management will be working in conjunction with representatives from ALPA to collaborate on improvements to our fuel training curriculum.



Respectfully,



Ric

Captain Richard Wilson

Vice President Flight Operations

EmbaeDriver
04-16-2018, 09:33 AM
^^^^^ thatís old

Jamesthunder
04-16-2018, 04:50 PM
Heard the person in question was fired.

Pedro4President
04-16-2018, 05:22 PM
Heard the person in question was fired.

Definitely didn't want that to happen.

Ijustlikeflying
04-16-2018, 05:23 PM
Heard the person in question was fired.

As they should be...

highfarfast
04-16-2018, 05:35 PM
As they should be...

The one(s) who made that person feel like those policies were acceptable should be fired. I'm not sure the person that sent the HI6 should have been the one fired. They just exposed a culture problem with management policies.

OldBiff
04-16-2018, 05:45 PM
The one(s) who made that person feel like those policies were acceptable should be fired. I'm not sure the person that sent the HI6 should have been the one fired. They just exposed a culture problem with management policies.

Speaking of which anyone catch 60 minutes about Allegiant? Seems like poor management culture is catchy.

FullThrust
04-16-2018, 05:49 PM
The one(s) who made that person feel like those policies were acceptable should be fired. I'm not sure the person that sent the HI6 should have been the one fired. They just exposed a culture problem with management policies.

Highly doubt it was higher up than the fleet manager. Otherwise why would only one fleet manager send it to one fleet instead of all fleets? I dunno, maybe I am being too optimistic but I hope it was an isolated case with him.

highfarfast
04-16-2018, 06:09 PM
Highly doubt it was higher up than the fleet manager. Otherwise why would only one fleet manager send it to one fleet instead of all fleets? I dunno, maybe I am being too optimistic but I hope it was an isolated case with him.

That HI6 didn't read to me like he was the one that came up with the policies. He was just the one dumb enough to not realize how the rest of us would react to such policies. Maybe I'm wrong, just the way it sounded to me.

bigtime209
04-16-2018, 06:27 PM
Heard the person in question was fired.

He was dismissed from his mgmt position, but not fired from the airline.

dvtpilot
04-16-2018, 06:28 PM
Highly doubt it was higher up than the fleet manager. Otherwise why would only one fleet manager send it to one fleet instead of all fleets? I dunno, maybe I am being too optimistic but I hope it was an isolated case with him.

Agree. Either that was the one fleet manager that lacked the stones to carry managements water or it was a personal crusade. Either way, poor form and no way to gain the respect of others.

Iím pretty laid back but when it comes to adding gas,( if you want it)either itís in the wings or we donít push.

Pedro4President
04-17-2018, 05:08 AM
He was dismissed from his mgmt position, but not fired from the airline.

Good. I think that is an appropriate step. If you are dumb enough not to know to send an email out like that, then you shouldn't be in management.

Well, I bet it will be a while before he ask for CA add.

Pedro4President
04-17-2018, 05:13 AM
That HI6 didn't read to me like he was the one that came up with the policies. He was just the one dumb enough to not realize how the rest of us would react to such policies. Maybe I'm wrong, just the way it sounded to me.

I agree. The company CA add list is a strong indicator that this conversation has taken place before at the management level. Pretty sure a phone call from the CP is all that the company is willing to do for the CA add list.

Smutter
04-17-2018, 05:14 AM
The one(s) who made that person feel like those policies were acceptable should be fired. I'm not sure the person that sent the HI6 should have been the one fired. They just exposed a culture problem with management policies.

Ask any fo who has flown with him, he is a nightmare.

f16jetmech
04-17-2018, 05:55 AM
Definitely didn't want that to happen.

Probably what needed to happen to keep the FAA off their case.

Pedro4President
04-17-2018, 06:15 AM
Probably what needed to happen to keep the FAA off their case.

Agreed.

I think he should be removed from his current position but still be employed as a CA to fly the line.

Gooselives
04-17-2018, 07:05 AM
Agreed.

I think he should be removed from his current position but still be employed as a CA to fly the line.

But what happens when he needs CA add!

pitchattitude
04-17-2018, 09:10 AM
But what happens when he needs CA add!

He certainly better use it!

TCASTESTOK
05-01-2018, 09:08 PM
Im guessing they determined who to add to the list by auditing flight releases and seeing which flights requested CA add fuel.

SullyJR
05-01-2018, 10:32 PM
Im guessing they determined who to add to the list by auditing flight releases and seeing which flights requested CA add fuel.

Dispatchers have a RF form they send when captains add fuel that goes to the CPO. I donít remember the name of the specific RF but itís been posted here before.

TCASTESTOK
05-02-2018, 11:04 AM
Dispatchers have a RF form they send when captains add fuel that goes to the CPO. I donít remember the name of the specific RF but itís been posted here before.

I know that some flight planning software has a specific CA ADD FUEL line where you put in how much fuel the CA wants and it just adds that number to the rest of the fuel on the plan. Might be a reason box too to explain why. Some programs also auto append a message to the flight release under the remarks section such as

REMARKS
=============
CA REQUESTED 1000 (OR 10.0 DEPENDING ON PROGRAM) OF CA ADD FUEL DUE TO (INSERT REASON SUCH AS WX,ATC, ETC ETC)
another way it could appear is
ADDED XXX POUNDS OF FUEL AT CAPTAIN REQUEST DUE TO (REASON)

ive never heard of a actual form being sent to the CP for additional fuel, usually they would just pull random audits of OFPs.

LowValueAviator
05-02-2018, 03:46 PM
I had a dispatcher in my jumpseat. I asked and they confirmed that dispatch has to report it to the chief pilot every time a captain adds fuel.

TCASTESTOK
05-02-2018, 05:48 PM
I had a dispatcher in my jumpseat. I asked and they confirmed that dispatch has to report it to the chief pilot every time a captain adds fuel.
Im surprised it isnt just automatically sent to the CP when the flight gets released.

Skip0927
05-02-2018, 06:40 PM
Im surprised it isnt just automatically sent to the CP when the flight gets released.

That would make it to easy for the FEDs to go after. Auto notification as opposed to a little more labor intesive way makes it less of a red flag to the FEDs...my $.02

TCASTESTOK
05-02-2018, 07:38 PM
That would make it to easy for the FEDs to go after. Auto notification as opposed to a little more labor intesive way makes it less of a red flag to the FEDs...my $.02
But how would auto notification make it too easy? I assume the POI for Envoy KNOWS about this whole CA ADD FUEL reporting policy?