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boeingdvr
04-07-2018, 06:37 PM
Well, another week of negotiations and it's ground hog day again.

Company is asking for concessions on scope - I was unaware we even had scope 😂....

Just had someone go to envoy. Huge signing bonus, captain and flow ( more than we have now ) 100k first year pay.

17 day trips after 17 day trips - for 45k first year pay.

We are hiring - come on over.


White Cap
04-08-2018, 12:14 AM
Well, another week of negotiations and it's ground hog day again.

Company is asking for concessions on scope - I was unaware we even had scope ��....

Just had someone go to envoy. Huge signing bonus, captain and flow ( more than we have now ) 100k first year pay.

17 day trips after 17 day trips - for 45k first year pay.

We are hiring - come on over.



Yes we have scope. Scope kept GSS out of MIA a few years back. If your working 17 days a month, the pay gotta be better that 45k. Ask your friends to submit details to the IBT anytime there is outsourced work. Keep the faith, they all capitulate in the end.

maxjet
04-08-2018, 02:51 AM
Whitecap is correct. Eventually they will capitulate. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Tough to compete with regionals offering 100k (second year pay 74k and you will be a reserve CA for a while). K4, Omni, and ATI hiring for those that can not seem to get on with a legacy or Southwest. It is truly a pilots world out there.

You can sit around and complain about the slowness of negotiations, or you can move on. It is a pilots choice today.

It hasn’t been done yet on this thread, but please don’t blame the length of negotiations on the union. Atlas is much tougher than anyone anticipated. Stay the course and reap the benefits or leave and start over. If I was a young pilot I would leave.


5Ypilot
04-08-2018, 12:37 PM
Trying hard to leave, its not as easy as I would have thought, but ill get out of this nightmare one way or another.

No Land 3
04-08-2018, 01:44 PM
Whitecap is correct. Eventually they will capitulate. Hopefully sooner rather than later. Tough to compete with regionals offering 100k (second year pay 74k and you will be a reserve CA for a while). K4, Omni, and ATI hiring for those that can not seem to get on with a legacy or Southwest. It is truly a pilots world out there.

You can sit around and complain about the slowness of negotiations, or you can move on. It is a pilots choice today.

It hasn’t been done yet on this thread, but please don’t blame the length of negotiations on the union. Atlas is much tougher than anyone anticipated. Stay the course and reap the benefits or leave and start over. If I was a young pilot I would leave.
Hey, wasn't Atlas going to buy us out? An Atlas female FO even told us so...

maxjet
04-08-2018, 02:20 PM
Hey, wasn't Atlas going to buy us out? An Atlas female FO even told us so...

And if she was hot you believed her 😀

Thyagosc
04-08-2018, 05:58 PM
Hey, wasn't Atlas going to buy us out? An Atlas female FO even told us so...

Who is US? What company is that?

Riverside
04-08-2018, 08:43 PM
Who is US? What company is that?

A little slow today aren't we?

Thyagosc
04-09-2018, 05:42 AM
A little slow today aren't we??

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

Locke
04-09-2018, 05:58 AM
i’ll save you some detective work. He’s talking about K4

JonnyKnoxville
04-26-2018, 06:16 AM
A Brief Recap of Atlas Negotiating History

Fellow Atlas Crew Members,

With so many new Atlas crew members, I receive regular inquiries about the lengthy labor history at Atlas and how we got to where we are today. Sadly, there is nothing new to the position Atlas management has historically taken. In this message, I will attempt to cover our 19-year negotiating history as briefly as possible and still give you an accurate perspective of what management is attempting to perpetrate on our pilot group and families, yet again.

In late 1999, Polar Air Cargo achieved its first union CBA under ALPA with a priority put on work rules and quality of life provisions, rather than compensation.

In 2001, Atlas Air purchased Polar Air Cargo from General Electric and thus began a somewhat disjointed merger and acquisition process. Although Atlas had purchased Polar, its leadership did not know exactly how to integrate Polar. Throughout the initial years of being under the same management structure relations grew strained – not only between the Polar MEC and Atlas MEC, but also between the Polar MEC and Atlas management in Purchase, NY. Atlas management worked constantly to leverage the pilots, pitting both groups against each other. While this worked well for management, it was to the detriment of the pilots. Polar’s CBA became amendable in 2002 and after three years of manipulating the pilot group and stonewalling at the negotiating table, the Polar pilots chose to strike in 2005. The successful 20-day strike, came to a close only when both the Atlas and Polar pilot groups finally started working together. Unfortunately, this strike was followed by a weak back-to-work agreement, reached in part due to an APLA representative’s mistaken assumption that the company would follow through in good faith if the pilots extended some good will in entering a critical post-strike negotiation. This included prematurely taking down the Polar picket, which gave away precious union leverage before ever beginning negotiations. The results were predictable. In essence, after a 20-day pilot strike, the resulting negotiation yielded little if anything more than what the company had offered before the strike. The Polar pilots came away with very modest raises and not much more.

In 2002, the Atlas pilots achieved their first union CBA. It provided better compensation than the Polar contract, but it contained some inferior work rules and quality of life provisions. Both CBAs were fashioned from an ALPA first contract blueprint. They were very basic and trailed behind the rest of the industry.

In 2004, before the Polar strike, Atlas and Polar had been thrust into bankruptcy after years of upper management officials’ excessive management compensation and a long history of loading up the company with massive debt, mostly attributed to aircraft acquisitions (sound familiar?). Both Atlas and Polar managed to come out of bankruptcy that same year after erasing over $900 million dollars off the balance sheet, a sizable amount for an airline with only 46 aircraft.

Along the way, the Atlas pilots were also able to negotiate modest raises, but nothing remotely close to any industry standard. Atlas and Polar pilots could not get on the same page and thus continued to play into the company’s hands. In 2008, after years of frustration and movement towards a joint CBA, a movement was started by the Atlas pilots to seek representation with the International Brotherhood of Teamsters (IBT). ALPA had come out with policies and opinions against the ACMI business as a whole; a business model that Atlas was and is still built upon. The move was successful and in late 2008, the Atlas and Polar pilots left ALPA and became part of the Teamsters. Before both pilot groups left ALPA, the merged seniority list was delivered to Atlas management thus triggering the amalgamation process and an arbitrated CBA.

Management initially offered a “dual track” expedited system and promised a CBA in nine months, further indicating that management would not hold an arbitrator to the “amalgamation standard” (sound familiar?). The Atlas and Polar pilots sat down at the table in good faith, expecting management to honor its promises to expeditiously negotiate a new joint CBA. Atlas management, of course, did nothing of the kind. The promised nine-month process took close to two years. Under oath, in the arbitration process, we learned that Atlas intentionally delayed the CBA for over a year at the apparent behest of DHL. In the resulting arbitration, virtually the first words out of the company’s high priced “Hollywood” lawyer was an admonition that the arbitrator did not have the authority to go outside the parameters of the Atlas and Polar CBAs thus triggering the “amalgamation standard”. Finally, in September of 2011, an amalgamated five-year CBA was produced.

Even though the merger of the two airlines never occurred, and to this very day, as everyone can all plainly see, Atlas and Polar have never been merged. Atlas management benefited from the misapplication of the provisions of both CBAs in order to take advantage of the merger provisions at the table and yet never actually merged the airlines as promised. This manipulated process produced a combined CBA based on a template of two first-time contracts. The combined Atlas/Polar CBA is now woefully behind the rest of industry. While everyone was relieved that the process was finally over, all understood that management had distorted a provision in the scope language of both CBAs to keep pilot work rules and pay well below industry standard. In fact our present CEO “crowed” to analysts and investors after the CBA was signed that the effective expense increase for the pilot workforce was only around seven percent. Through this manipulated and distorted process, the Atlas and Polar pilots were deprived of a ratification vote by the amalgamation process. To date, for the legacy Atlas and Polar pilot groups respectively, 16 and 18 years have elapsed since any pilot has voted or been able to ratify a true negotiated CBA here at Atlas. If management gets its way through the courts and the current attempted arbitration process, it will again deny all of us another opportunity to vote on our future and ratify a CBA, possibly for the next decade or more.

All of the above leads us to our current negotiations, in which this same management group is holding out on all of the major provisions of the CBA for (wait for it)…an AMALGAMATION. Management’s tactics and playbook are exactly the same as last time, as are the promises and assurances. All the while, the same catastrophic damage is being inflicted on our pilot group and our families. Of course the executives couldn’t care less, as they continue to line their pockets with the highest salaries in the airline industry, lavish bonuses and obscene perks. All this, while saddling the company with an increasingly unmanageable debt and passing on desirable lucrative contracts.

Many of you ask, “Why do we still sit and negotiate with a group that engages in such bad faith and has such a long history of doing so?” The answer is simple, we are bound by the Railway Labor Act (RLA) to negotiate in good faith and we are committed on our side to bargain in good faith, as will be evident to the NMB or an arbitrator if that is the path we are forced to travel.

The current Framework Agreement extension ends June 1, 2018, so we will see what happens after that. For now, it appears certain that the company is dragging this process out just so they can get to the well one more time to enjoy yet another misapplication of the current CBA merger provisions.

As we move forward, we have something labor rarely has in dealing with any management group. We have a long and sordid management track record on which to rely. When this management group makes promises and assertions, they have one big problem; their track record precedes and betrays them. As discussed, it is a negotiating history based upon broken promises, reneging on deals and commitments. It is one of telling crew members only half of the story, misusing and manipulating language in the CBA (like in the recent strike language arbitration, when management’s history was totally exposed and justifiably denied by the arbitrator) and the list goes on. I can assure you we will NEVER again fall for such false promises, half-baked truths and deals on which management can renege. In short, we maintain the advantage of having “seen this movie before”.

I know the process to achieve a new CBA is long and arduous; the last one took 6-8 years, depending on whether you were Atlas or Polar. This one will not take as long, as Atlas cannot survive it. Already past the point of no return, even the most optimistic of business viewpoints, it will take years if not an entire decade for this company to recover from this current management-imposed fiasco. Indeed, there are now only a very few “executive level” managers who believe in the current company strategy or who haven't buried their heads in the sand as Atlas and Southern continue to wither. It is now clear that the executive suite has lost not only the confidence of the Atlas and Southern pilots, but most of the airline’s employees and middle management as well. Parked aircraft, large amounts of open time, cancelled flights and angry customers do not lead anyone, except the very top few that Atlas is in anything other than steep decline. Hiding the pilot shortage and pilot retention problems behind false maintenance listings is all part of this desperate management’s scheme to hide the real disaster they have brought upon themselves.

The fastest and best way to get a new CBA remains through direct, good faith negotiations. It is the only thing that can save Atlas from further irreparable harm. It is also the way to the industry-standard CBA we all deserve. The more unity, resolve, and contract compliance we maintain, the faster we will get a new CBA. There are several picketing events coming up in May and June, so come out and participate in force like the recent CVG event to show our solidarity.

We are a strong, cohesive pilot group and for that teamwork I am convinced we will ALL be rewarded.

As usual, I thank all of you for your support. We will prevail and break the string of amalgamated, inferior, bottom level CBAs that this pilot group has had inflicted upon it for so many years.

Remember, always be “ALL-IN”.

Fraternally,

Bob K.
Atlas Executive Council Chairman

wjcandee
07-27-2018, 11:42 AM
Any guesses about what happens now to N641GT after the hard landing at PSM this morning? Bang Ding Ow!

Maybe a line of speed tape all the way around the crease the runs the circumference of the fuselage?

The soldiers' photos and comments are priceless. Good news that nobody hurt. (Obviously no personal injury lawyers around to explain that lower back pain isn't medically-provable or disprovable.)

gumpscheck
07-27-2018, 02:18 PM
Any guesses about what happens now to N641GT after the hard landing at PSM this morning? Bang Ding Ow!

Maybe a line of speed tape all the way around the crease the runs the circumference of the fuselage?

The soldiers' photos and comments are priceless. Good news that nobody hurt. (Obviously no personal injury lawyers around to explain that lower back pain isn't medically-provable or disprovable.)

Maybe Joe Hete will remove one -300 from the ABX fleet and give it to Atlas. He likes to do stuff like that.

RunsWithScissor
07-27-2018, 03:55 PM
This is what will be happening as the talent pool dries up. Manipulating controls is easy and experience only comes with time, and the experienced pilots are just not there like they use to be. Only saying.

4runner
07-27-2018, 04:07 PM
What happened? Everyone ok?

Brokenwind
07-27-2018, 04:38 PM
This is what will be happening as the talent pool dries up. Manipulating controls is easy and experience only comes with time, and the experienced pilots are just not there like they use to be. Only saying.


Guy are coming on with incredible interface skills. 100% engaged with the automation and quite comfortable with the first generation capabilities of the B767.

Disconnect the a/p at 1000”, stare at the EADI for 90 seconds, as you start to zone out after 8+ hours of flight and looking up in the last 50 feet, not knowing where to look, and there you have it...

motorclutch
07-27-2018, 04:46 PM
Hey we broke one in GDL a couple of years past. New first officer (MIT grad) bounced one and let go at 40 feet to test the ....captain autoland feature. She eventually got fired but is flyin 737 freighters in Honolulu. It all works out.

wjcandee
07-27-2018, 04:59 PM
Maybe Joe Hete will remove one -300 from the ABX fleet and give it to Atlas. He likes to do stuff like that.

True that, but they would have to put the seats back in. It was an AMC troop flight.

JackStraw
07-27-2018, 04:59 PM
Happy to report that the FO completed OE with that landing and is all signed off and good to go!! Fedex interview in August.

motorclutch
07-27-2018, 05:53 PM
Hahaha. That’s funny ****.

Brokenwind
07-27-2018, 06:55 PM
Love freight... Never had a bone for anything else. Are you a real freight man or just a dawg?[
QUOTE=motorclutch;2643744]Hey we broke one in GDL a couple of years past. New first officer (MIT grad) bounced one and let go at 40 feet to test the ....captain autoland feature. She eventually got fired but is flyin 737 freighters in Honolulu. It all works out.[/QUOTE]

gumpscheck
07-28-2018, 08:37 AM
True that, but they would have to put the seats back in. It was an AMC troop flight.

OUCH!!!!!!

BoilerUP
07-28-2018, 09:41 AM
https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37888380_10110419856086808_5302722762882678784_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=943704e19304311f60ddc419536ee721&oe=5C0B7274

https://scontent-iad3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/37871020_10110419856081818_1536563484022538240_n.j pg?_nc_cat=0&oh=fb6a678ea1950ad5d638985990b3fcc5&oe=5C0DE8DD

sky jet
07-28-2018, 10:47 AM
Damn......

JackStraw
07-28-2018, 10:54 AM
This could have been much much worse

vroll1800
07-28-2018, 05:56 PM
Accident: Atlas B763 at Portsmouth on Jul 27th 2018, hard landing (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4bbab491&opt=0)

nitefr8dog
07-29-2018, 05:59 AM
This could have been much much worse

The pilot flying will now move immediately into management with a significant pay raise...

tailwheel48
07-30-2018, 03:22 PM
It'll buff right out!

JackStraw
07-30-2018, 04:08 PM
It'll buff right out!

“that guy” has finally arrived.

airbus300
07-30-2018, 04:48 PM
K4

Not cool man. Not cool.

suddenimpact
07-31-2018, 12:03 AM
The pilot flying will now move immediately into management with a significant pay raise...

No, he will go directly into the training center. Low time, low experience, the inability to say "no" for the foreseeable future, very low pay longevity and at least one accident now. Everything Lindsey/management wants to see in the training center.

suddenimpact
08-04-2018, 10:45 AM
Not to derail the thread but didn’t you ....

You would think I would have gotten a phone call, email or a LOI from the company or FAA. Guess it was someone else. ****

I do know from experience that the current ExCo doesn't seem to be able to man the emergency line at Atlas 1224 for member calls despite their regular paying of UB/FPL at record highs. $1.272 million for 2017 in pdf (https://www.dropbox.com/s/2ol7ahpp8cg6lb8/lm-1224-2017.pdf?dl=1). Curious if these guys called the union emergency line and got an answer. Complaints of no one picking up the phone at 1224 have been going all the way up to IBT Int'l regularly. So much for ** running it like a business. Guess he is following the Atlas model and taking what he can and not providing the service.

DC8DRIVER
08-04-2018, 03:53 PM
You would think I would have gotten a phone call, email or a LOI from the company or FAA. Guess it was someone else. Don't let that stop you, BK, and the P2P from making up what you want.

I do know from experience that the current ExCo doesn't seem to be able to man the emergency line at Atlas 1224 for member calls despite their regular paying of UB/FPL at record highs. *****

Never heard that complaint from anyone else. ***

Elevation
08-05-2018, 12:09 AM
As far as I know the apa1224 emergency line works fine and is answered for all members. Sometimes there is a delay (minutes) where you may be on hold as the phone tree works. If nobody picks up for a while, you’ll wind up on the phone with BK directly.

If someone calls and the emergency line doesn’t work, that’s actually a significant problem and it needs to be addressed immediately. I’d suggest emailing stewards with the specifics of when you called, when you got a response, etc.

While it’s clear to me that DC-8 is joking, we should probably make crystal-clear that politics don’t factor in emergency support provided by the union. If you’re a dues-paying member, we will support you.

suddenimpact
08-05-2018, 12:30 AM
Never heard that complaint from anyone else.***?

Actually, I got that from the local 1224 president and the IBT Airline Director. Guess your just not as informed as you think. You should expand your universe....

You being the self designated "in the know union official" here, lets just say your right that the ExCo Chairman willfully ignored a dues paying members call on the emergency line at 1224.

Then that becomes a Duty of Fair Representation matter for not representing all the dues paying members equally. Having had to represent guys like you in the past when they came a knocking for help, I did my job and helped them. It was the job and DFR's was taught then.

That's the job of the elected and volunteers quickly forgotten under our currently elected leader. Streaming it down our unions food chain under him exposing our local, volunteers and members to lawsuits by our own when they pull that kind of crap. All from an elected leader who has found a way to extend his career at our expense to serve as a business agent at his FAA required retirement knowing he was not going to see the end of the disaster he helped create here at Atlas with lawsuits that were known losers and wasting our money and time.

.......

suddenimpact
08-05-2018, 12:51 AM
As far as I know the apa1224 emergency line works fine and is answered for all members. Sometimes there is a delay (minutes) where you may be on hold as the phone tree works. If nobody picks up for a while, you’ll wind up on the phone with BK directly.

If someone calls and the emergency line doesn’t work, that’s actually a significant problem and it needs to be addressed immediately. I’d suggest emailing stewards with the specifics of when you called, when you got a response, etc.

While it’s clear to me that DC-8 is joking, we should probably make crystal-clear that politics don’t factor in emergency support provided by the union. If you’re a dues-paying member, we will support you.


I don't share your confidence.

Others, along with me have found it lacking. Complained about up to IBT Int'l by many and it has been an ongoing issue. DC-8 isn't joking, it is the underling problem we have at Atlas 1224. Not doing their job and who you are counts also, not that you are a dues paying member.

It is a simple answering service that asks you who you are, who you work for, and the general problem. Then they start calling the contact people for that group while your on hold. It is obvious that our elected are selectively answering the calls and "forgetting to turn their phone on". All while we are paying record levels of Flight Pay Loss for guys to man the phones.

So much for running this union like a business as BK says.

Elevation
08-05-2018, 07:47 AM
Alright, you’re clearly upset with your experience with the union. You wouldnt be this upset if things worked to your satisfaction. Also, since we are talking about emergency response, some pretty important union functions haven’t lived up to your expectations.

So let’s establish facts (within the limits of what we can do here). Do you have records of calling and NOT being assisted? Call logs from your phone, emails asking “how do I reach you guys?” All work. Since this is a public forum, don’t include identifying details about yourself or your call. What would be worth knowing is the time from when you made your first call to the union the time you got a response. Did you call once or make multiple attempts?

What, in your opinion is a worthwhile response time?

Elevation
08-05-2018, 08:21 AM
My goal is to listen to you; not set you up for a “...so there!” moment. Also, sometimes problems become self-correcting. If we get hard data that confirms a degree of favoritism in response, we will get our act together really fast. If we get hard data that confirms no favoritism, that’s great too.

At the end of the day we are here for you.

DC8DRIVER
08-05-2018, 08:22 AM
As far as I know the apa1224 emergency line works fine and is answered for all members.

While it’s clear to me that DC-8 is joking, we should probably make crystal-clear that politics don’t factor in emergency support provided by the union. If you’re a dues-paying member, we will support you.

Elevation is correct. My post was clearly made in jest. Some people simply have no sense of humor (which is also an indication of the level of intelligence!).*****

I am not a union officer or committee member. I have not spoken to a union exco member in more than a year.

suddenimpact
08-06-2018, 05:16 PM
Alright, you’re clearly upset with your experience with the union. You wouldnt be this upset if things worked to your satisfaction. Also, since we are talking about emergency response, some pretty important union functions haven’t lived up to your expectations.

So let’s establish facts (within the limits of what we can do here). Do you have records of calling and NOT being assisted? Call logs from your phone, emails asking “how do I reach you guys?” All work. Since this is a public forum, don’t include identifying details about yourself or your call. What would be worth knowing is the time from when you made your first call to the union the time you got a response. Did you call once or make multiple attempts?

What, in your opinion is a worthwhile response time?

Elevation,

You have been one of the more sincere, level headed, and less tribal of all the factions under Atlas 1224. I appreciate your reply.

I've had two events within 6 months of each. Hopefully trouble doesn't happen in three's here. All phone audio recorded and on my call log. One call with the older call forwarding/hunt feature of the emergency line and one with the human manned answering service one that gets your details then they call around for those on the contact list and patches onto the line with them. One event over FAR interpretation and Atlas willy-nilly deciding to make an FO unqualified on the -8 as a "cruise FO" on a heavy crew the other was the lack of the ground crew not removing equipment out of the way (also out of view by crew in cockpit) when being marshaled out.

First case, the call went immediately to an answering machine which later turned out to be a Stewards cell phone that was left off and his voicemail answered. Left a couple of messages on that. Later got an email about four hours into the flight looking at the email header. So the forward/hunt feature at that time works, just the end user not doing their job of turning the phone on per the email I later got. I did get an ExCo to answer after about eight tries by direct calls due to me having just about everyone's info in union office in my cell due to my past union work. Don't think average joe pilot has that. End result after the mutual outrage, my earlier requesting letters/acars from the CP and calling out the company ended with the trip going and the ExCo member saying he will stand with me if the FAA comes after the crew. Filed the standard reports.

This case was mostly poor manning and protocol on our part.

Second case,

Was an incident that the emergency line went to the human answering service that gets your details and contact info then they seek someone to answer the phone in what ever hierarchy they are using now. They answered promptly, got my carrier, name, cell, and a short brief and a read back of the info I gave them. Spent about 12 minutes on hold while they called around to "connect me" with someone on the call list. At the end of the 12 or so minutes they said they could not get anyone answer and that they would try take forward the message and have someone eventually contact me. No one called back.

This event was after the infamous P2P call in which the Atlas ExCo chair defamed those that supported the FPL amendment vote and encouraged the P2P committee to go forth to the membership and do the same.

I later found out while talking to the the 1224 Pres about this problem that the person that was supposed to be answering at that time had called him and told him what happened. As told by our Pres, our ExCo chair got the call and said for the operator to call him back when he "safely pulls over his car" in which he did for a while and he states no one called him back. So, while not bothering to attempt to close the loop on a emergency line call he drove off to home not even calling the answering service back on why the patch to the caller (me) didn't happen. He never--never bothered contacting me about it but was willing to tell the 1224 pres his story instead. I confronted him on a later membership crew call, but no "this won't happen again this way or apology." Just excuses and a restatement of what he did mirroring the above, nor any explanation why he never closed the loop on the issue to include on that call. Also have to take into account that his story didn't match what I had recorded with the emergency line answering service.

My crew and I were on our own and to tell the truth, after the infamous P2P call with his defamation's and orders to that committee to do the same on the named FPL amendment supporters, I wasn't expecting any after that the way we are now at Atlas 1224.

Pure malice which is against the local bylaws and IBT constitution, let alone the duty of fair representation issues.

I took this up the food chain since the Pres. didn't provide any resolution or interest in my recordings/evidence. Up the chain, we have come to an agreement and I'm waiting to see what stupidity transpires next before pulling the trigger. If anyone is experiencing the same, feel free to PM me with details and we can include you in the action taken.

Elevation
08-06-2018, 06:38 PM
First, kudos on having the gravitas to talk about your situation without divulging sensitive information. Simply saying you had to call the line a couple of times on here takes some guts. You also put a lot of thought into describing your situation too. Well done. I really respect that.

From what you describe, I see two potential failures.

First, somehow the phone tree didn’t work as you expected. Perhaps this was simple human error? Perhaps there was a political dynamic involved? I don’t know. In either case the system seems to have failed when you needed it to work. You didn’t get a call. Perspective from folks answering the phones would be valuable in figuring out exactly what happened.

The good news is that this first problem is self-correcting. Whether or not the system failed you, by describing your experience you can rest assured that people WILL respond the next time the emergency line is put to use.

I think the second issue is one of expectations. This is more important, in my humble opinion. We need to advertise services we can deliver. By similar token, we need to educate our membership about the realities they’ll face if they have a bad day. Have we been over-selling our ability to respond? Is our membership equipped to handle themselves after an event when we think about the realistic burdens they may be under? Are we realistic about how people rise to an occasion they are trained for but may check out in the hours after they get to the hotel/hospital etc? Perhaps more proactive steps to educate our memebers of emergency response is in order? Do people know if may take a “lot” of work on their part to get a timely response? How well are these thins handled at other carriers,and what can we learn from them? These are things for us to consider in house.

More bad events will happen. People cite turnover and new pilots, but just numbers (more planes, flying more hours) mean we have more dark event on the horizon. Now is the time for us to get out ahead of the curve to prevent the preventable and prepare for inevitable.

The specifics are for an in-house discussion, but your story is valuable.

Finally, we should probably remember that we don’t have the perspective of the folks who were answering phones that day. We don’t have a lot of perspectives in fact. This isn’t the place to officially lay blame or admit wrongdoing. I am glad I got a chance to listen to (read) your experience.

Elevation
08-06-2018, 06:51 PM
One more thing. I can tell you’re angry. At the end of the day you’re one of us. Trash talk, tribes and all the other nonsense doesn’t matter. Ultimately we’re with you.

suddenimpact
08-07-2018, 12:12 AM
The specifics are for an in-house discussion, but your story is valuable.

Finally, we should probably remember that we don’t have the perspective of the folks who were answering phones that day. We don’t have a lot of perspectives in fact. This isn’t the place to officially lay blame or admit wrongdoing. I am glad I got a chance to listen to (read) your experience.

Personally, I would have been happy to share this in-house. Unfortunately for 4-5 months we all did not have posting rights to our own Atlas 1224 forums due to the unannounced removal of the moderators that approved posts by Atlas 1224 leadership. Probably just as well, they were deleting posts and censoring them even though they met the TOS. Only recently, unannounced, non-Atlas moderators at 1224 starting approving posts. Discovered by DC8driver from what looks like a miss-posting on those forums. I had quit trying after two-three months with none of my postings being approved. Atlas leadership has pretty much killed the 1224 Atlas forums by that maneuver and the only choice is the non-Union facebook page gc_comms (nudge-nudge-wink-wink). The facebook page denies access to dues paying members identified as FPL amendment supporters which past by majority vote at 1224 or others expressing themselves not in line with our leaderships view on things. But leadership allows questions from the facebook page during membership calls.

As to perspective, I believe the ExCo Chair gave his during the mentioned membership crew call. BTW, we don't record them anymore since we lost the work action injunction. So I can't give you the link for his perspective, but it was pretty obvious to me and a number of others that emailed me afterwards that his actions were those of malice and not ineptitude. Considering all his other past actions, the case for malice is a forgone conclusion.

FR8Dog7
08-07-2018, 03:35 AM
Nothing will change at Atlas until you get rid of the bunch that are running your Exco. You are paying the highest dues of anybody so the chosen few can have prime rib and king prawns on your dime at every chance they get. If you post something they don't like, or God forbid try to change the by-laws, they throw you off the site altogether. :mad:

Elevation
08-07-2018, 01:57 PM
I think a lot of what you cite as wrong with our organization is common to a lot of other organizations too. Unchecked most organizations, squadrons, departments, etc. have a tendency to devolve into a glorified high school lunchroom. We can all think of many examples. Swapping out one set of people with weaknesses for another set of people with weaknesses won’t change anything except for the clique in charge. These problems are systemic, universal and persistent.

Rather than removing and replacing folks en masse perhaps we need to push for a general cultural change? Instead of slinging mud or commenting on mishaps, we need to state the facts when institutional failures occur. If we are going to drive any organization to function as advertised we have to function as advertised as well. I’m not saying we all need to be sanctimonious jerks, but I am saying that we ourselves have to be trustworthy for us to force trustworthiness into the union’s actions. That starts with being good to our FOs and FAs (or captains for recent hires). When you think about it, isn’t that what solidarity is all about? It takes a lot of energy, though. Sometimes you can get really worn down as folks want to trash talk your friends. That’s the cost of doing business, I guess. We’ll get there.

DC8DRIVER
08-07-2018, 05:55 PM
I think a lot of what you cite as wrong with our organization is common to a lot of other organizations too. Unchecked most organizations, squadrons, departments, etc. have a tendency to devolve into a glorified high school lunchroom. We can all think of many examples. Swapping out one set of people with weaknesses for another set of people with weaknesses won’t change anything except for the clique in charge. These problems are systemic, universal and persistent.

Rather than removing and replacing folks en masse perhaps we need to push for a general cultural change? Instead of slinging mud or commenting on mishaps, we need to state the facts when institutional failures occur. If we are going to drive any organization to function as advertised we have to function as advertised as well. I’m not saying we all need to be sanctimonious jerks, but I am saying that we ourselves have to be trustworthy for us to force trustworthiness into the union’s actions. That starts with being good to our FOs and FAs (or captains for recent hires). When you think about it, isn’t that what solidarity is all about? It takes a lot of energy, though. Sometimes you can get really worn down as folks want to trash talk your friends. That’s the cost of doing business, I guess. We’ll get there.

Agreed.

The union is all of us. The union officers and chairs are all volunteer positions. Anyone can run for office. And they are all human, subject to imperfection and if there is a problem, there are good and bad ways to fix the problem. If something is broken it is best fixed it by being constructive - not divisive. We have all had problems at one point or another and the best results are the product of cooperation. Kind of like the way we are supposed to act as a crew in flight.

JackStraw
08-07-2018, 06:23 PM
The union is all of us but the ones with NDAs are extra union.

FR8Dog7
08-10-2018, 03:55 AM
$11,000 for wine for a stewards meeting!

Kirchner , Robert
EXCO Atlas
$61,208


Bourne , David
Airline Director/BA
$81,955

Atlas Air Inc
2000 Westchester Ave
Purchase
NY
flight pay loss $1,272,562


Law Office of Edward Gleason
$436,902

Lionel Largmann
$25,260


Chateau Elan Winery and Resort
Braselton
GA

$10,824
steward meeting

https://olms.dol-esa.gov/query/getOrgQryResult.do

DC8DRIVER
08-10-2018, 06:48 AM
You know, I may be no expert on these things, but I think that Chateau Elan Winery and Resort is the name of the place and they offer more than just wine (and pretty much all hotels offer wine btw). Like I would imagine they have rooms you can pay for to sleep in and food that you can buy to eat. So if our stewards go someplace to meet, I am OK with paying for them to do that.

The way my math works out, $11,000 divided between 1750 pilots is about $7.00 out of my pocket for this meeting. This is about 70 cents per steward for our 10 stewards and that allows them to meet and figure out how best to represent me against an ever increasingly hostile company.

A better question is why a retired guy even cares about whats happening here and why he has so much hostility towards our union ...

FR8Dog7
08-10-2018, 07:04 AM
You know, I may be no expert on these things, but I think that Chateau Elan Winery and Resort is the name of the place and they offer more than just wine (and pretty much all hotels offer wine btw). Like I would imagine they have rooms you can pay for to sleep in and food that you can buy to eat. So if our stewards go someplace to meet, I am OK with paying for them to do that.

The way my math works out, $11,000 divided between 1750 pilots is about $7.00 out of my pocket for this meeting. This is about 70 cents per steward for our 10 stewards and that allows them to meet and figure out how best to represent me against an ever increasingly hostile company.

A better question is why a retired guy even cares about whats happening here and why he has so much hostility towards our union ...

You are either a fool, one of them or both! The Teamsters have not done ****** since they were brought in. Just a bunch of lies and broken promises. The amount of money that has been spent is absurd. And why in hell is 1224 paying Dave Bourne 80+ thousand a year when he gets paid by Teamsters Intl?

I still have friends that work there and are tired of paying 2.5%.

JackStraw
08-10-2018, 08:05 AM
You know, I may be no expert on these things, but I think that Chateau Elan Winery and Resort is the name of the place and they offer more than just wine (and pretty much all hotels offer wine btw). Like I would imagine they have rooms you can pay for to sleep in and food that you can buy to eat. So if our stewards go someplace to meet, I am OK with paying for them to do that.

The way my math works out, $11,000 divided between 1750 pilots is about $7.00 out of my pocket for this meeting. This is about 70 cents per steward for our 10 stewards and that allows them to meet and figure out how best to represent me against an ever increasingly hostile company.

A better question is why a retired guy even cares about whats happening here and why he has so much hostility towards our union ...


You can not be serious. Chateau Elan is not an appropriate meeting location for a union. Last time I checked Holiday Inns still have conference rooms. This is absolutely absurd that we are paying for them to go out of their way to Braselton, Georgia that is nowhere near an airport to a winery and resort mansion to “discuss” our lack of strategy. Hopefully all of our reps broke 100 out there on the golf course. I’d hate for them to embarrass themselves at such a nice place.

FR8Dog7
08-10-2018, 08:37 AM
You can not be serious. Chateau Elan is not an appropriate meeting location for a union. Last time I checked Holiday Inns still have conference rooms. This is absolutely absurd that we are paying for them to go out of their way to Braselton, Georgia that is nowhere near an airport to a winery and resort mansion to “discuss” our lack of strategy. Hopefully all of our reps broke 100 out there on the golf course. I’d hate for them to embarrass themselves at such a nice place.


My point exactly! Plus why is Bourne STILL getting 80+ K a year from 1224 when he gets paid, BOURNE , DAVID TRADE DIVISION DIRECTOR $208,717 ??

The Baron
08-10-2018, 09:41 AM
All 1224 Line Pilots,
This thread is FULL of the same reasons K4 stopped paying this corrupt leadership for poor, no, or MISREPRESENTATION. We paid an assessment for years, and had several pilots inquire about the balance or where the money was being spent, and 1224 produced ZERO information for any of it. They talk tough, (We hold the line!) and now they are signing off on Southern to get an average $9.00 dollar an hour raise and GIVE UP home basing, UNBELIEVABLE! Oh I am sorry, the new $79 per hour first and second year pay for the B737s will probably fix the recruitment problem for that program. Dan Wells sold the Southern pilots down the road, as saying no to this pathetic amendment was the only real way to keep pressure on AWWH. K4 Pilots wish you all the best for new contracts, sadly the 1224 leadership and legal group only knows how to file lawsuits and then LOSE in court.
Baron

RyeMex
08-10-2018, 10:03 AM
Dan Wells sold the Southern pilots down the road, as saying no to this pathetic amendment was the only real way to keep pressure on AWWH. K4 Pilots wish you all the best for new contracts, sadly the 1224 leadership and legal group only knows how to file lawsuits and then LOSE in court.
Baron

Methinks the K4 group needs to be consistent in their criticism of DW. First, they were ****ed because DW "didn't let them vote" on their own TA, and now it is also somehow his fault for letting the Southern pilots vote on this LOA? So, which one is it? Is he at fault for not letting people vote or for letting people vote?

The Baron
08-10-2018, 10:39 AM
Well Mr. RyeMex,
First DW prevented K4 pilots from voting on a complete contact with a 55% initial raise, over how many hours our crews could be on duty for double crew duty periods. Not ONE K4 pilot wanted shorter duty days in our surveys. Putting a pathetic stop gap measure out vote to help AWWHs management with serious recruitment problems, and allowing management to lure them with a 30K bonus when they should all be making 100K a year more,every year is disgraceful! So you see it depends on if DW thinks its good for him and AWWHs management, you get to vote, if not them he decides no, you cant vote. Why is the Southern EXCOs name and signature NOT on the agreement? My guess he felt insulted, said NO WAY! So Wells, Bourne, some 1224 lawyer and CEO of Southern put their names on this disgraceful document that has 12 year B777 Captains BELOW $200 per hour.
Baron

Birdsmash
08-10-2018, 10:53 AM
Well Mr. RyeMex,
First DW prevented K4 pilots from voting on a complete contact with a 55% initial raise, over how many hours our crews could be on duty for double crew duty periods. Not ONE K4 pilot wanted shorter duty days in our surveys. Putting a pathetic stop gap measure out vote to help AWWHs management with serious recruitment problems, and allowing management to lure them with a 30K bonus when they should all be making 100K a year more,every year is disgraceful! So you see it depends on if DW thinks its good for him and AWWHs management, you get to vote, if not them he decides no, you cant vote. Why is the Southern EXCOs name and signature NOT on the agreement? My guess he felt insulted, said NO WAY! So Wells, Bourne, some 1224 lawyer and CEO of Southern put their names on this disgraceful document that has 12 year B777 Captains BELOW $200 per hour.
Baron

The Southern EXCO 100% supported the adoption of the LOA. Those same pilots that spent months at the negotiating table also spent weeks conducting roadshows. I agree 100% that the LOA improvements are far from adequate. All the LOA does is make life “suck less” than it currently does under the bankruptcy CBA.

The LOA also takes “amalgamation” off the table if both groups end up in arbitration. 94.76% of the Southern pilots saw more upside than down side when deciding whether to vote yes/no.

Elusive Napkin
08-10-2018, 11:48 AM
Just some background on that meeting. It’s unsolicited, and I have no dog in the fight other than wanting to get accurate information out there.

I no longer work at Atlas, but was part of the meeting. The location was chosen because it was off peak season. It was freezing. So no golf. (I definitely would have exceeded 100 anyway) Place was a ghost town and affordable. Ever go to Niagra Falls in Winter? Kinda like that...

At the time, 6 individuals attending the meeting lived in or within driving distance of Atlanta. This saves on transportation costs. I took a jumpseat down and caught a ride with one of them.

Trust me, we would have much rather stayed in the city of Atlanta rather than drive to that place. I got food poisoning from their crappy lunch buffet.

Additionally, it wasn’t just a steward meeting, but the stewards called the meeting. Sometimes is is very beneficial to get people in the same room to discuss grievance proceedings in person. All stewards and one EXCO member were present, as well as some negotiating committee members and the entire scheduling committee.

In total, there were 17 people at the meeting, if memory serves. So that cost paid for meals, lodging, etc for those people for 4 days.

Anyway, it’s unsolicited information, but I thought I would throw it out there.

Good luck, and keep up the good fight. Hopefully with your bosses and not against each other.

Globe Master
08-10-2018, 03:58 PM
Well Mr. RyeMex,
First DW prevented K4 pilots from voting on a complete contact with a 55% initial raise, over how many hours our crews could be on duty for double crew duty periods. Not ONE K4 pilot wanted shorter duty days in our surveys. Putting a pathetic stop gap measure out vote to help AWWHs management with serious recruitment problems, and allowing management to lure them with a 30K bonus when they should all be making 100K a year more,every year is disgraceful! So you see it depends on if DW thinks its good for him and AWWHs management, you get to vote, if not them he decides no, you cant vote. Why is the Southern EXCOs name and signature NOT on the agreement? My guess he felt insulted, said NO WAY! So Wells, Bourne, some 1224 lawyer and CEO of Southern put their names on this disgraceful document that has 12 year B777 Captains BELOW $200 per hour.
Baron

Signed by Dave Bourne, Dan Wells and Bryan Holmberg Southern ExCo Chairman.

b707guy
08-10-2018, 05:38 PM
Just some background on that meeting. It’s unsolicited, and I have no dog in the fight other than wanting to get accurate information out there. ...




You're letting reality creep in to ruin a good bad ignorant impression?! ;)

DC8DRIVER
08-11-2018, 06:45 AM
The Baron ... Please get your facts straight prior to posting more incorrect information about Southern, Atlas, 1224, ETOPS, etc. etc. Being proved wrong time after time only hurts your credibility. A little research never hurt anyone! (... except K4 lol)

DC8DRIVER
08-11-2018, 07:03 AM
You are either a fool, one of them or both!
I still have friends that work there and are tired of paying 2.5%.

Well, I'll give you the "fool" part as I am stuck at Atlas for the time being, but I'm not "one of them" as you put it. And, I don't know how many "friends" you still have here, but nobody likes paying the assessment!

We've got this fight and it's not with our union. We're a little busy fighting with the company right now. You seem to harbor a lot of hostility towards a place that should not concern you anymore. Go fish, or play golf, or chase a dream or do whatever it is that might make you a less angry person. Leave this war those of us still here.

DC8DRIVER
08-11-2018, 07:08 AM
You can not be serious. Chateau Elan is not an appropriate meeting location for a union. Last time I checked Holiday Inns still have conference rooms. This is absolutely absurd that we are paying for them to go out of their way to Braselton, Georgia that is nowhere near an airport to a winery and resort mansion to “discuss” our lack of strategy. Hopefully all of our reps broke 100 out there on the golf course. I’d hate for them to embarrass themselves at such a nice place.

Do the research prior to bashing our union. And/or volunteer to help rather than throwing rocks from the sidelines. We'll get a contract a lot faster if we are all pulling the rope in the same direction.

DC8DRIVER
08-11-2018, 07:11 AM
Just some background on that meeting. It’s unsolicited, and I have no dog in the fight other than wanting to get accurate information out there.

I no longer work at Atlas, but was part of the meeting. The location was chosen because it was off peak season. It was freezing. So no golf. (I definitely would have exceeded 100 anyway) Place was a ghost town and affordable. Ever go to Niagra Falls in Winter? Kinda like that...

At the time, 6 individuals attending the meeting lived in or within driving distance of Atlanta. This saves on transportation costs. I took a jumpseat down and caught a ride with one of them.

Trust me, we would have much rather stayed in the city of Atlanta rather than drive to that place. I got food poisoning from their crappy lunch buffet.

Additionally, it wasn’t just a steward meeting, but the stewards called the meeting. Sometimes is is very beneficial to get people in the same room to discuss grievance proceedings in person. All stewards and one EXCO member were present, as well as some negotiating committee members and the entire scheduling committee.

In total, there were 17 people at the meeting, if memory serves. So that cost paid for meals, lodging, etc for those people for 4 days.

Anyway, it’s unsolicited information, but I thought I would throw it out there.

Good luck, and keep up the good fight. Hopefully with your bosses and not against each other.

Thanks for the clarification. Also hope you have time now to work on that golf game ... You'll never win when you are shooting 100+ ;)

White Cap
08-12-2018, 01:31 PM
Longer duty days? Get lost K4.

Lockheed
08-12-2018, 02:12 PM
Longer duty days? Get lost K4.

half the money? Get lost Atlas

Riverside
08-12-2018, 03:54 PM
Longer duty days? Get lost K4.

I'll take the longer duty days, which are rare. Than be under Teamsters anyday.

JackStraw
08-12-2018, 04:33 PM
I'll take the longer duty days, which are rare. Than be under Teamsters anyday.

He’s right you know??

Atlas guys like to chest thump about how “kalitta’s payrates are great on paper” but “the work rules are terrible”. I’d like to remind them that kalitta’s pay rates are light years ahead of Atlas and their work rules are also light years ahead. The Atlas contract is garbage and to compare it to kalitta as if Atlas possesses some sort of benchmark is lying to yourself. We are the absolute dog crap of the industry. Meanwhile, kalitta is making twice the amount of us working 1 to 3 days less.
Maybe we can dump teamsters for alpa one day.


I’ll prove kalitta has it better.. Kalitta guys, how much do you make per day you work?

Lockheed
08-12-2018, 06:43 PM
He’s right you know??

Atlas guys like to chest thump about how “kalitta’s payrates are great on paper” but “the work rules are terrible”. I’d like to remind them that kalitta’s pay rates are light years ahead of Atlas and their work rules are also light years ahead. The Atlas contract is garbage and to compare it to kalitta as if Atlas possesses some sort of benchmark is lying to yourself. We are the absolute dog crap of the industry. Meanwhile, kalitta is making twice the amount of us working 1 to 3 days less.
Maybe we can dump teamsters for alpa one day.


I’ll prove kalitta has it better.. Kalitta guys, how much do you make per day you work?

well in july i made $1538 per day
i worked 9 days and 7 vaca
devided my gross by 16

in june it was $1758 per day
i worked 20 days...4 OT

i'll spare you the math but in june that gross was 35k

nitefr8dog
08-13-2018, 03:50 AM
well in july i made $1538 per day
i worked 9 days and 7 vaca
devided my gross by 16

in june it was $1758 per day
i worked 20 days...4 OT

i'll spare you the math but in june that gross was 35k
You are a new hire FO to boot....correct?

Lockheed
08-13-2018, 04:06 AM
You are a new hire FO to boot....correct?

ah…..no

filler

4runner
08-13-2018, 08:56 AM
Atlas isn’t going to be at OBAP? Odd.

sandstorm
08-13-2018, 10:23 AM
Atlas isn’t going to be at OBAP? Odd.

Probably because they realize that they wouldn't get the highly qualified pilots that all the other much better paying and career destination airlines are after. Instead, Atlas has to lower it's standards and recruit at the same job fairs that the regional airlines are recruiting at.

FAPA.aero | Pilot Job Fairs (http://fapa.aero/pilot_job_fair.asp?conf=ANC18)

Elevation
08-13-2018, 10:14 PM
I think this FAPA event is at ANC, which is really convenient. We love hiring local ANC pilots. I’m not sure why we don’t have folks at OBAP.

JackStraw
08-15-2018, 07:28 AM
well in july i made $1538 per day
i worked 9 days and 7 vaca
devided my gross by 16

in june it was $1758 per day
i worked 20 days...4 OT

i'll spare you the math but in june that gross was 35k

The idea is that at Atlas you make either 3.65 or 4.85 a day. That’s it. You worked a 20 hour duty day? Good for you. Here’s 4.85 hours.

Lockheed
08-15-2018, 09:03 AM
The idea is that at Atlas you make either 3.65 or 4.85 a day. That’s it. You worked a 20 hour duty day? Good for you. Here’s 4.85 hours.

ok I think I see what you want after looking at my pay sheet for June it turns out I worked 21 days straight by choice - I had a week of vaca in July August and September so I figured why not do some OT

so here is my hourly pay by day - the first 2 and last 3 are OT days

1 - 4 hours min OT day travelled to cvg
2 - 20.5 … 13.7 hr trip paid at 150%
3 - 14.7
4 - zero
5 - 8.7
6 - zero
7 - 11.3
8 - 4.0 rsv pay
9 - 3.2 repo pay was actually 6.4 paid at 50%
10- 4.0 rsv pay
11- 10.2
12- zero
13- 4.0 rsv pay
14- 9.3
15- zero
16- 10.6
17- zero
18- 9.6
19- 4.0 min OT
20- 21.7....14.3 OT trip paid at 150% plus 3hrs dhd pay
21- 4.0 min OT - travelled home

the days with zero where either a 1/7 or the fact that the trip spanned 2 days and we just put our pay on the day the trip started

so just the days on flying was 89 hours - average month around here
the 5 days of OT got me another 56 hors for a total of 146.5 pay hours

unless you actually work at an airline its hard to understand how it works - I hope this make it a little clearer for those that are interested

Moosefire
08-15-2018, 10:05 AM
ok I think I see what you want after looking at my pay sheet for June it turns out I worked 21 days straight by choice - I had a week of vaca in July August and September so I figured why not do some OT

so here is my hourly pay by day - the first 2 and last 3 are OT days

1 - 4 hours min OT day travelled to cvg
2 - 20.5 … 13.7 hr trip paid at 150%
3 - 14.7
4 - zero
5 - 8.7
6 - zero
7 - 11.3
8 - 4.0 rsv pay
9 - 3.2 repo pay was actually 6.4 paid at 50%
10- 4.0 rsv pay
11- 10.2
12- zero
13- 4.0 rsv pay
14- 9.3
15- zero
16- 10.6
17- zero
18- 9.6
19- 4.0 min OT
20- 21.7....14.3 OT trip paid at 150% plus 3hrs dhd pay
21- 4.0 min OT - travelled home

the days with zero where either a 1/7 or the fact that the trip spanned 2 days and we just put our pay on the day the trip started

so just the days on flying was 89 hours - average month around here
the 5 days of OT got me another 56 hors for a total of 146.5 pay hours

unless you actually work at an airline its hard to understand how it works - I hope this make it a little clearer for those that are interested

Ouch. But well done I suppose

Dash7AV8R
08-15-2018, 04:06 PM
Lockheed

I see that the company tells everyone up front that they will be guaranteed only 50 hours the first year and 62 hours after that, ie. year two and beyond. Once past OE is a brand new FO to really expect the 50 hours or does real life reflect a much higher monthly hour total (such as your 89 hour total for June?) I see your a Captain but maybe one of your newer hire FO's could answer this if you're not sure?

elfouquer
08-15-2018, 04:16 PM
Lockheed

I see that the company tells everyone up front that they will be guaranteed only 50 hours the first year and 62 hours after that, ie. year two and beyond. Once past OE is a brand new FO to really expect the 50 hours or does real life reflect a much higher monthly hour total (such as your 89 hour total for June?) I see your a Captain but maybe one of your newer hire FO's could answer this if you're not sure?


Lockheed works at Kalitta where the min guarantee is 64 hours. The 50 you are referring to I believe is an Atlas thing. First year FOs at Kalitta can expect 80 to 100 hours a month.

Dash7AV8R
08-15-2018, 04:25 PM
Oh, yeah, I was asking about Atlas so if anyone could answer my question about the 50 hours for them I'd appreciate it (maybe a current first year FO?). Sounds like Lockheed is one happy pilot though making 89 hours without any overtime at Kalitta pay rates

DC8DRIVER
08-15-2018, 04:28 PM
Lockheed

I see that the company tells everyone up front that they will be guaranteed only 50 hours the first year and 62 hours after that, ie. year two and beyond. Once past OE is a brand new FO to really expect the 50 hours or does real life reflect a much higher monthly hour total (such as your 89 hour total for June?) I see your a Captain but maybe one of your newer hire FO's could answer this if you're not sure?

The figures you quote refer to Atlas. Captain Lockheed is just visiting this thread. He works for Kalitta. He is here bragging about the Teamster 1224 contract they now operate under. It is much better than the current Atlas contract.

Elevation
08-15-2018, 05:15 PM
Hey Dash-7,

I work at Atlas. The answer to your question all depends on what airplane you’re on. On the 747, you can expect 4 months of training pay then about 70-80hrs/month credit. On the 767 you can expect minimum per month or 4 months of training pay and 50hrs credit per month for the first year.

Kalitta negotiated a new contract under Teamsters APA1224, but has since moved to ALPA due to a variety of factors. That’s what you see referenced in previous posts.

While there is no shortage of people offering advice, I’d say that you should plan any professional decision based on minimum guarantee pay rather than what is currently typical.

HercDriver130
08-15-2018, 06:15 PM
Lockheed

I see that the company tells everyone up front that they will be guaranteed only 50 hours the first year and 62 hours after that, ie. year two and beyond. Once past OE is a brand new FO to really expect the 50 hours or does real life reflect a much higher monthly hour total (such as your 89 hour total for June?) I see your a Captain but maybe one of your newer hire FO's could answer this if you're not sure?

I have been flying with an FO this month who is in his 3rd month off OE... his first two months he credited 106 and 114 hours for pay.. I know he worked two extra days each month. YMMV

FWIW.... my bid line was a 68 hours guarantee line... when I finish early friday morning I will have 82 hours for pay.

Lockheed
08-15-2018, 06:43 PM
The figures you quote refer to Atlas. Captain Lockheed is just visiting this thread. He works for Kalitta. He is here bragging about the Teamster 1224 contract they now operate under. It is much better than the current Atlas contract.

um we have known each other for over 20 years....I'm sorry if I came across in bad way....just trying to answer the guys question
I really wish the best for you guys
theres got to be 40 former dhl guys there if you take into account SA...and at least 10 former K4...all good dudes including you
understand k4 doing well does nothing but help your fight...in the end you will get what you fight for and what you deserve
lord knows you've earned it

DC8DRIVER
08-15-2018, 10:39 PM
um we have known each other for over 20 years....I'm sorry if I came across in bad way....just trying to answer the guys question
I really wish the best for you guys
theres got to be 40 former dhl guys there if you take into account SA...and at least 10 former K4...all good dudes including you
understand k4 doing well does nothing but help your fight...in the end you will get what you fight for and what you deserve
lord knows you've earned it

Actually, you guys SHOULD brag about your contract. It really IS a much better contract than Atlas has. My post may have sounded snarky, but I meant it to be accurate.

And, yes between SAI and Atlas there are close to 40 of our former co-workers here. Now that the SAI guys have signed the agreement that brings them up to Atlas rates, we can all move forward with the fight without us Atlas folks standing on their shoulders. Long overdue parity (mostly equal, anyway).

In the end you are absolutely correct. ALL of us ACMI workers are in the same war and we need to set our sights on our management overlords and not each other. I hope our new contract is better than anyone else has. And then I hope ABX gets one that is better than ours. That is called the race to the top instead of the race to the bottom and there will never be a better time to win a race to the top than we have right now.

freighthound
08-16-2018, 06:10 AM
It would be interesting to hear how many hours of pay the K4 767 guys are getting paid. I assume everyone responding on here with the large pay credit hours have been 747 guys.

BluePAX
08-16-2018, 08:32 AM
Oh, yeah, I was asking about Atlas so if anyone could answer my question about the 50 hours for them I'd appreciate it (maybe a current first year FO?). Sounds like Lockheed is one happy pilot though making 89 hours without any overtime at Kalitta pay rates


There will always be stories of the new FO at Atlas who got 100 plus hours his first month. The truth is that once you get out of the school house (2.5 months) OE is backed up 3 months at the moment. I know several FO's right now who have one trip pairing under their belt and have been waiting three months after getting home from Miami training. One who is going back to Miami because landing currency and another who isn't far behind. Means at least another month to get done at the shortest...

So yes, 50 hour guarantee is a reality for many after the 4 initial months. Unless you somehow sneak in and get OE done right after initial training you are in it for the wait.

Crazy Canuck
08-16-2018, 10:06 AM
There will always be stories of the new FO at Atlas who got 100 plus hours his first month. The truth is that once you get out of the school house (2.5 months) OE is backed up 3 months at the moment. I know several FO's right now who have one trip pairing under their belt and have been waiting three months after getting home from Miami training. One who is going back to Miami because landing currency and another who isn't far behind. Means at least another month to get done at the shortest...

So yes, 50 hour guarantee is a reality for many after the 4 initial months. Unless you somehow sneak in and get OE done right after initial training you are in it for the wait.


Agreed,

I came to Atlas thinking I could easily make 85 to 100 hours a month (because I didn't know how our contract worked! No ability to pick up trips outside of scheduling controlled "OT" and no line protection!). I was unpleasantly surprised to find I actually made 50 hour guarantee one month. I really planned my life around being able to make that kind of money.

Realistically, I have credited about 70-75 hours ever since per month with the odd month of 62 hours (sick call, training, etc). Yes I know some making 100-120 hours per month (and have made that myself before), but I also know as many making 62 or even 50 hour guarantee. Unfortunately, you have 0 control over this and are basically reduced to hoping they publish enough high credit schedules for your seniority to hold, and that they don't send you home early to cut your CRT out from under you.

That is the reality of credit here. As a poster above said, plan on min guarantee and you won't be disappointed.

4runner
08-16-2018, 10:42 AM
I think this FAPA event is at ANC, which is really convenient. We love hiring local ANC pilots. I’m not sure why we don’t have folks at OBAP.

Me neither. Literally every airline that’s hiring was there. Maybe atlas just didn’t have the man power to attend this massive job fair. Emirates must be hurting worse because they came. I met quite a few Emirates, atlas and Qatar pilots.

zerozero
08-16-2018, 12:00 PM
Me neither. Literally every airline that’s hiring was there. Maybe atlas just didn’t have the man power to attend this massive job fair. Emirates must be hurting worse because they came. I met quite a few Emirates, atlas and Qatar pilots.

It's just a question of "Cost:Benefit".

It costs too much to pack up a recruiting team, buy hotels, pay for registration, per diem and finish the whole event with no viable applicants.

WIA
NGPA
and OBAP will be LOSING events until management sits down and signs a new contract.

It's just business.

nitefr8dog
08-16-2018, 12:34 PM
It's just a question of "Cost:Benefit".

It costs too much to pack up a recruiting team, buy hotels, pay for registration, per diem and finish the whole event with no viable applicants.

WIA
NGPA
and OBAP will be LOSING events until management sits down and signs a new contract.

It's just business.
Thats giving them alot of credit...you really think they are that smart? I know over here they are not.

atpcliff
08-16-2018, 01:32 PM
Last post I read by an Emirates pilot, some months ago, said he thought they were short about 850 pilots. They have been parking aircraft.

Twin Wasp
08-16-2018, 04:47 PM
ok I think I see what you want after looking at my pay sheet for June it turns out I worked 21 days straight by choice - I had a week of vaca in July August and September so I figured why not do some OT

so here is my hourly pay by day - the first 2 and last 3 are OT days

1 - 4 hours min OT day travelled to cvg
2 - 20.5 … 13.7 hr trip paid at 150%
3 - 14.7
4 - zero
5 - 8.7
6 - zero
7 - 11.3
8 - 4.0 rsv pay
9 - 3.2 repo pay was actually 6.4 paid at 50%
10- 4.0 rsv pay
11- 10.2
12- zero
13- 4.0 rsv pay
14- 9.3
15- zero
16- 10.6
17- zero
18- 9.6
19- 4.0 min OT
20- 21.7....14.3 OT trip paid at 150% plus 3hrs dhd pay
21- 4.0 min OT - travelled home

so just the days on flying was 89 hours - average month around here
the 5 days of OT got me another 56 hors for a total of 146.5 pay hours

Just trying to figure the K4 comparison out. So y'all's normal schedule would be 16 days? So if you hadn't worked the extra 5 days your first day (day 3) would most likely been 4 hours credit and not 14.7? And your last day (18) would also have been 4 instead of 9.6? That brings your 89.6 hours down to 73.3. Which is 15 days and 3 hours of trip rig at Atlas. Just trying to understand.

Lockheed
08-16-2018, 07:14 PM
Just trying to figure the K4 comparison out. So y'all's normal schedule would be 16 days? So if you hadn't worked the extra 5 days your first day (day 3) would most likely been 4 hours credit and not 14.7? And your last day (18) would also have been 4 instead of 9.6? That brings your 89.6 hours down to 73.3. Which is 15 days and 3 hours of trip rig at Atlas. Just trying to understand.

I see what your saying
on this particular month the only reason I did the 1st OT trip was it was so perfect for me...I only left home 24 hrs earlier then I would have (we travel to work on our last day off)..the trip was on the day I would normally travel on and it was cvg to Nagoya...big trip for OT....my sched had me going ord atl istanbul...so it would have been good time also....your right about the last day tho that probably wouldnt have happend ...but I was in China...they would have had to comm me home...that would have got me 8hrs pay ...

Llike I said before its hard to undestand a place you dont work at
I've read the Atlas CBA at least a dozen times and I know I dont really know how it works

yes we work 16 days ..tho travel on day 0
we get paid the greater of
line credit value
64 hrs
actual Pay Credit Hours accumulated

PCH consists of
actual block time +
any positioning or deadhead @ 50% +
any Reserve duty @ 4 PCH per day

hope all that helped

Twin Wasp
08-17-2018, 07:23 AM
OK, good info. We as I'm sure you know are on the hook for 17 days with travel to base on day zero. However looking back on this year 6 out 9 times going to work day 1 has been a DH from my base to the my first real flight so I've left the house on day 1.


We get paid the greater of -
1. our 62 hour guarantee
2. your Calculated Rig Time. CRT is like a trip rig (for us 1 hour pay for every 4.95 hours away from base) except the clock also starts running if you have Hotel Reserve in base
3. or the total of your pay credits for flight time, DH (at 1 for 2.85), vacation, GS and sick days all paid at 3.65 hours per day.

If you volunteer for open time it pays 2 extra hours the first day, 4 hours the second day and 6 hours every day after. That pay and the greater of your CRT or pay credits goes on top of whichever of the above three totals is greatest. And we get a 50 percent flight pay "hostile area" override if the flight departs or lands from an airport on a list of hostile areas. That also goes on top of the greater of the three. Best month I ever had at Atlas was 105 hours when we were doing the Turkish flying last year. Every fight had a 50% override since IST is considered hostile because of the attack on the terminal a few years back. Even the DHs to and from IST on Turkish had a 50% override!

Like you said, it's hard to understand outside looking in.

Lockheed
08-17-2018, 09:55 AM
OK, good info. We as I'm sure you know are on the hook for 17 days with travel to base on day zero. However looking back on this year 6 out 9 times going to work day 1 has been a DH from my base to the my first real flight so I've left the house on day 1.


We get paid the greater of -
1. our 62 hour guarantee
2. your Calculated Rig Time. CRT is like a trip rig (for us 1 hour pay for every 4.95 hours away from base) except the clock also starts running if you have Hotel Reserve in base
3. or the total of your pay credits for flight time, DH (at 1 for 2.85), vacation, GS and sick days all paid at 3.65 hours per day.

If you volunteer for open time it pays 2 extra hours the first day, 4 hours the second day and 6 hours every day after. That pay and the greater of your CRT or pay credits goes on top of whichever of the above three totals is greatest. And we get a 50 percent flight pay "hostile area" override if the flight departs or lands from an airport on a list of hostile areas. That also goes on top of the greater of the three. Best month I ever had at Atlas was 105 hours when we were doing the Turkish flying last year. Every fight had a 50% override since IST is considered hostile because of the attack on the terminal a few years back. Even the DHs to and from IST on Turkish had a 50% override!

Like you said, it's hard to understand outside looking in.

I'm glad you outlined the Atlas way - it made me relaize that I left a few things out - I'll detail them below

we get paid the greater of
line credit value
64 hrs
actual Pay Credit Hours accumulated

PCH consists of

actual block time +
any positioning or deadhead @ 50% +
any Reserve duty @ 4 PCH per day +
4.0 PCH per vacation day +
4.0 PCH for any training day GS, sim or CBT+
6.0 PCH hostile area pay(in addition to flt time) for trip into Hostile area - paid above Guarentee+

one big thing we have is No forced OT no junior manning of any kind - a crewmember must be in the US by 19Z and home by 2359Z on his last day - regardless of cost

OT is paid above guarentee
4.0 is minumun for any OT day
PCH is 150% of flt time - paid above guarentee
any positioning or deadhead would also be included at the normal 50% of block

I think that covers it pretty well - thanks for asking - maybe it will help some guys understand the similairities and the diferences

MysteriousMrX
08-17-2018, 01:20 PM
The junior 747 base is still ANC, right? Do you generally start/end trips there or get seadheaded elsewhere?
I know ANC is a pain for some because of a long positive space commute.. but for those that live there.... not bad!

Where do most 767 trips start/end? I know CVG and JFK and I guess ONT are bases but you can be home based, yes?
Just trying to figure out where would be the best place to live if on the 767.

FR8Dog7
08-17-2018, 01:59 PM
The junior 747 base is still ANC, right? Do you generally start/end trips there or get seadheaded elsewhere?
I know ANC is a pain for some because of a long positive space commute.. but for those that live there.... not bad!

Where do most 767 trips start/end? I know CVG and JFK and I guess ONT are bases but you can be home based, yes?
Just trying to figure out where would be the best place to live if on the 767.


Memphis with FedEx :D

Elevation
08-17-2018, 02:02 PM
ANC is still junior on the 747. I really enjoyed ANC when I was there.

CVG is junior on the 767. As an FO, you could hold ONT or JFK within a year or so. JFK is mostly AMC flying, so you will DH our to the airplane on day 1 (767 and 747).

Commuting to CVG isn’t as easy as it used to be when Comair and Delta were busier there. Two legs are required for about 2/3 of the pilots who commute to base. This usually means the company airlines you in way early. If you are close enough to drive or take a rental car, CVG is actually pretty nice.

ONT is pretty commutable due to the large numbers of flights in and out of LA area airports. You may have to talk with our travel department to work out the flight details, however.

BarryBuchman
08-19-2018, 11:01 PM
FAA ATPL
Over 16000 hours
Over 5000 command hours including 2000 on the A319/320.
Over 4000 hours as an FO on the B744

I submit an application and get a response saying I do not meet the minimum FO requirements?

Anyone know why this would be?

Only possible reason I can think of is either my age, 51, or that I don’t currently hold an FAA Class I Medical as I am flying for a foreign carrier on their country’s ATP licence and have that country’s Class I medical.

Elevation
08-19-2018, 11:08 PM
The medical certificate is probably kicking you out by the computer. You're definitely competitive and we'd be happy to have you. Medical standards abroad are generally more restrictive than they are in the US (with some significant exceptions). If you hold a valid first-class medical from an ICAO nation, I'd list it on your application and resume. There's no ethical shadiness in that. Make sure you have a valid FAA 1st class medical when you come to interview. If you really want to come here, you can make a phone call to our HR department.

I'm sure you've done your research on compensation, benefits, retirement, etc. If not, perhaps this hiccup is a good opportunity for you to survey other carriers, look at 401k matching, etc.? I enjoy my work, but I'd hate to be part of selling yourself short financially.

DC8DRIVER
08-19-2018, 11:35 PM
FAA ATPL
Over 16000 hours
Over 5000 command hours including 2000 on the A319/320.
Over 4000 hours as an FO on the B744

I submit an application and get a response saying I do not meet the minimum FO requirements?

Anyone know why this would be?

Only possible reason I can think of is either my age, 51, or that I don’t currently hold an FAA Class I Medical as I am flying for a foreign carrier on their country’s ATP licence and have that country’s Class I medical.

With those qualifications you can do A LOT better than Atlas!

BarryBuchman
08-20-2018, 09:50 AM
To be honest, I only filled in the application in the hope of being able to obtain a phone number or email address to be able to ask somebody in the recruitment section some questions, specifically about how long I could expect to be an FO before upgrading to command. I did not add a resume to the application.

The pay at Atlas is not attractive and I’m already earning over $15,000 a month at my current airline as a Senior First Officer. I did downgrade from being a domestic Captain back to the long range as an FO for lifestyle reasons, among them being my ability to bid for two USA flights every month. I would like to return to the USA within the next three years and that’s why I’m currently looking at all options.

I’m not interested in flying for a passenger airline in the USA and so I’m looking at all cargo airlines and some corporate operators. I would love to fly the B744 again so that’s where my interest in Atlas lies.

BarryBuchman
08-20-2018, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the responses. To be honest, I actually filled in the application in the hope that somebody from HR would reply as I wanted to speak to someone about how long I could expect to wait for a command upgrade after joining as an FO. There is no way I could survive on FO pay for more than a couple of years.

Who should I be looking at with my experience and age? I feel my age is a problem (52 next month). I'm looking to fly for a cargo operator or corporate but not a low cost passenger airline. I know I could walk into most of the low cost A320 operators. I would really like to fly the B744 or B748.

I'm currently employed by an international airline flying the A330/A340 as the 4th most senior FO in the airline. I was a Captain on the narrow body A319/320 fleet but opted to downgrade back to FO on the long range fleet, after 3 years of command, for lifestyle reasons. Now I get two USA flights every month and that pretty much fills my roster. I earn over $15,000 a month but taxes are very high in the country where I live and work so I only take home around $10,000 a month including all pension contributions.

My main reason for wanting to move to the USA is that I live in a third world country and want to move my family to the USA where they will be safe and have a decent future. I'm not in a rush but would like to be back in the USA before my 55th birthday.

DC8DRIVER
08-20-2018, 01:20 PM
Thanks for the responses. To be honest, I actually filled in the application in the hope that somebody from HR would reply as I wanted to speak to someone about how long I could expect to wait for a command upgrade after joining as an FO. There is no way I could survive on FO pay for more than a couple of years.

Who should I be looking at with my experience and age? I feel my age is a problem (52 next month). I'm looking to fly for a cargo operator or corporate but not a low cost passenger airline. I know I could walk into most of the low cost A320 operators. I would really like to fly the B744 or B748.

I'm currently employed by an international airline flying the A330/A340 as the 4th most senior FO in the airline. I was a Captain on the narrow body A319/320 fleet but opted to downgrade back to FO on the long range fleet, after 3 years of command, for lifestyle reasons. Now I get two USA flights every month and that pretty much fills my roster. I earn over $15,000 a month but taxes are very high in the country where I live and work so I only take home around $10,000 a month including all pension contributions.

My main reason for wanting to move to the USA is that I live in a third world country and want to move my family to the USA where they will be safe and have a decent future. I'm not in a rush but would like to be back in the USA before my 55th birthday.

Atlas is hiring people with your qualifications so I would think the problem would be with the medical. Don't sell yourself short, however. UPS has both 744's and 748's and is on a serious hiring binge right now. If you haven't applied there, you should consider doing so. There are many gouges out there regarding the process and from what I know, you meet or exceed all of their requirements.

Elevation
08-20-2018, 05:52 PM
If you come here, figure about 5 years to command on the 747 or 3 to command on the 767. Contracts come and go, which affects upgrades a lot.

sandstorm
08-20-2018, 08:27 PM
There is no way I could survive on FO pay for more than a couple of years.


Keep in mind that CA pay at Atlas is equal to and in many cases less than FO pay at most other airlines. Don't take a job here and say you did not know.

No Land 3
08-21-2018, 12:57 AM
Kalitta Air, you'll make 130k your first year as an FO on the 744. If the rumors hold true on the 777, you'd have a fast upgrade.

4runner
08-21-2018, 03:13 AM
Thanks for the responses. To be honest, I actually filled in the application in the hope that somebody from HR would reply as I wanted to speak to someone about how long I could expect to wait for a command upgrade after joining as an FO. There is no way I could survive on FO pay for more than a couple of years.

Who should I be looking at with my experience and age? I feel my age is a problem (52 next month). I'm looking to fly for a cargo operator or corporate but not a low cost passenger airline. I know I could walk into most of the low cost A320 operators. I would really like to fly the B744 or B748.

I'm currently employed by an international airline flying the A330/A340 as the 4th most senior FO in the airline. I was a Captain on the narrow body A319/320 fleet but opted to downgrade back to FO on the long range fleet, after 3 years of command, for lifestyle reasons. Now I get two USA flights every month and that pretty much fills my roster. I earn over $15,000 a month but taxes are very high in the country where I live and work so I only take home around $10,000 a month including all pension contributions.

My main reason for wanting to move to the USA is that I live in a third world country and want to move my family to the USA where they will be safe and have a decent future. I'm not in a rush but would like to be back in the USA before my 55th birthday.

I was employed by an international airline when I was interviewed by atlas. They were so impressed, they asked if my foreign carrier was capable of answering a PRIA. Because, you know, like, they’re foreign and can’t do stuff like we can. Like answer an email enquiry or have a flight ops that speaks engrish.

maxjet
08-21-2018, 03:35 AM
FAA ATPL
Over 16000 hours
Over 5000 command hours including 2000 on the A319/320.
Over 4000 hours as an FO on the B744

I submit an application and get a response saying I do not meet the minimum FO requirements?

Anyone know why this would be?

Only possible reason I can think of is either my age, 51, or that I don’t currently hold an FAA Class I Medical as I am flying for a foreign carrier on their country’s ATP licence and have that country’s Class I medical.

We just hired a 62 year old regional jet captain. If you know you can handle a first class medical I would suggest sending a copy of the app, and a letter explaining to the ACP.

JackStraw
08-21-2018, 04:19 AM
I suggest you go to another outfit or even a real airline. Kalitta has a nice contract.

nitefr8dog
08-21-2018, 05:20 AM
Thanks for the responses. To be honest, I actually filled in the application in the hope that somebody from HR would reply as I wanted to speak to someone about how long I could expect to wait for a command upgrade after joining as an FO. There is no way I could survive on FO pay for more than a couple of years.

Who should I be looking at with my experience and age? I feel my age is a problem (52 next month). I'm looking to fly for a cargo operator or corporate but not a low cost passenger airline. I know I could walk into most of the low cost A320 operators. I would really like to fly the B744 or B748.

I'm currently employed by an international airline flying the A330/A340 as the 4th most senior FO in the airline. I was a Captain on the narrow body A319/320 fleet but opted to downgrade back to FO on the long range fleet, after 3 years of command, for lifestyle reasons. Now I get two USA flights every month and that pretty much fills my roster. I earn over $15,000 a month but taxes are very high in the country where I live and work so I only take home around $10,000 a month including all pension contributions.

My main reason for wanting to move to the USA is that I live in a third world country and want to move my family to the USA where they will be safe and have a decent future. I'm not in a rush but would like to be back in the USA before my 55th birthday.
Go to a pax major or Fedex, UPS.... with retirement. 10 yrs at UPS even as an FO and you end up with around 60k per yr retired.

atpcliff
08-21-2018, 09:19 AM
Omni has the highest first year pay in the industry, and a decent new contract. They are pax, but are charter only, so not like flying -121. Their pay is higher than Kalitta.

There are foreign carriers where you can be based in the US, and live at home in the US...

atpcliff
08-21-2018, 09:21 AM
I was employed by an international airline when I was interviewed by atlas. They were so impressed, they asked if my foreign carrier was capable of answering a PRIA. Because, you know, like, they’re foreign and can’t do stuff like we can. Like answer an email enquiry or have a flight ops that speaks engrish.

I was employed overseas, and they didn't know what PRIA was, and could not give Atlas the info. It was not a major airline, like Turkish, or Qatar, for example. Seems like a legit question to me, unless you worked for a well-known airline like those I mentioned above.

ROCKETM8
08-21-2018, 09:34 AM
Off topic a bit here I know but...does anybody have any opinions on which external GPS to buy? The Bad Elf Pro+ has GLONASS but, people prefer the Pro. Any hints or suggestions from people sitting in the glass bubble?

Riverside
08-21-2018, 09:43 AM
Omni has the highest first year pay in the industry, and a decent new contract. They are pax, but are charter only, so not like flying -121. Their pay is higher than Kalitta.

There are foreign carriers where you can be based in the US, and live at home in the US...

But do they fly more than Kalitta pilots?

GraceMonth
08-21-2018, 10:04 AM
But do they fly more than Kalitta pilots?

Not typically. Recently I’ve been breaking guarantee regularly (since April).

No Land 3
08-21-2018, 01:07 PM
Not typically. Recently I’ve been breaking guarantee regularly (since April).

That's the difference. Our min is 64 but nearly everyone ends up with at least 75 to 105 hours a month within our normal footprint. If we ever get fully staffed(Connie keeps getting more airplanes), that might change.

Crazy Canuck
08-22-2018, 02:39 PM
That's the difference. Our min is 64 but nearly everyone ends up with at least 75 to 105 hours a month within our normal footprint. If we ever get fully staffed(Connie keeps getting more airplanes), that might change.

75-105?????

Clearly you are not on the 767. I hardly found a schedule that was over 70 hours of pay for Sept. The overwhelming majority were 60-65 hours. And no ability to pickup more outside of our archaic OT system

No Land 3
08-26-2018, 09:40 AM
75-105?????

Clearly you are not on the 767. I hardly found a schedule that was over 70 hours of pay for Sept. The overwhelming majority were 60-65 hours. And no ability to pickup more outside of our archaic OT system
Why the duck are you limiting yourself to the 767? One comes to K4 to fly long haul freight unless you have personal reasons that make the 767 your choice of preference. I speak from the viewpoint of the majority of the company.

Cujo665
08-28-2018, 01:13 PM
Omni has the highest first year pay in the industry, and a decent new contract. They are pax, but are charter only, so not like flying -121. Their pay is higher than Kalitta.

There are foreign carriers where you can be based in the US, and live at home in the US...

It's 90% Govt pax flying. There is a carveout with scheduled 121 airline service run under contract for LAS-HNL. Hardly anybody breaks guarantee except check airmen. Plan on 64 a month in pay, and flying 20-40 hours a month with 16 days on the road with them having the option to keep you two more for extra pay. Pay is good, crews are great, equipment is well maintained. You'll go to the sim often to do landing currency. Then add in the regular 6 month training and PC checks. Staying sharp on so little flying is the hardest part.

Crazy Canuck
08-29-2018, 04:04 PM
Why the duck are you limiting yourself to the 767? One comes to K4 to fly long haul freight unless you have personal reasons that make the 767 your choice of preference. I speak from the viewpoint of the majority of the company.


Woops thought you were Atlas.

TangoIndiaMike1
08-31-2018, 06:56 AM
How long do you have to stay at atlas before ups or FedEx picks you up.

DC8DRIVER
08-31-2018, 07:45 AM
How long do you have to stay at atlas before ups or FedEx picks you up.

There is no minimum. Some pilots leave during initial groundschool. As alluring as you might think it would be to work for one of the lowest paying ACMI carriers out there, it seems that most new hires leave at the first opportunity.

Which is understandable.

4runner
08-31-2018, 03:56 PM
How long do you have to stay at atlas before ups or FedEx picks you up.

There’s a 7 year, or 4000 hour minimum. This is an unspoken agreement between the carriers. Thankfully, you’re guaranteed a job with FedEx, UPS or Delta after your tenure with Atlas/Omni. Atlas just bought Omni and ATI. You’re owed stuff after all.

4runner
08-31-2018, 03:58 PM
The people that get fired in groundschool or sims, typically get hired as DEC with Qatar or Emirates.

SoFloFlyer
08-31-2018, 08:47 PM
There’s a 7 year, or 4000 hour minimum. This is an unspoken agreement between the carriers. Thankfully, you’re guaranteed a job with FedEx, UPS or Delta after your tenure with Atlas/Omni. Atlas just bought Omni and ATI. You’re owed stuff after all.

Wait... Atlas bought Omni and ATI?

nitefr8dog
08-31-2018, 09:35 PM
Wait... Atlas bought Omni and ATI?
Haha...good one. ATI is owned by ATSG. They are not smart enough to sell ATI....he is just seeing if anyone bites..

Fleet Warp
09-01-2018, 04:24 AM
Haha...good one. ATI is owned by ATSG. They are not smart enough to sell ATI....he is just seeing if anyone bites..

So you're saying there is a chance?

nitefr8dog
09-01-2018, 06:09 AM
So you're saying there is a chance?
Nah....then Hete would not have any fun whipsawing ABX and those idiots at ATI...

JungleJetDriver
09-10-2018, 05:51 PM
Is there any news of improvement at Atlas? I’d like to think there is a a better contract in the works with more pay, better work rules and QOL.

Crusoe
09-10-2018, 09:11 PM
The company has ceased negotiations.

FR8Dog7
09-11-2018, 02:47 AM
The company has ceased negotiations.


Maybe it's time to get rid of the truck drivers union and go back to the one that really knows the airline business! Just remember ALL of the broken promises they told you to get you over there in the first place.

JungleJetDriver
09-11-2018, 04:28 AM
Well hopefully the trucker’s union can maximize any leverage you have (which in my opinion is a lot) and show the true value of the pilot group. Hopefully the pilot group can remain engaged to make Atlas a great place to hang your hat. But it does sound like the union may need an enema and the executives at Atlas need to be reminded that no one makes money when planes don’t fly. Good Luck!

nitefr8dog
09-11-2018, 05:09 AM
Maybe it's time to get rid of the truck drivers union and go back to the one that really knows the airline business! Just remember ALL of the broken promises they told you to get you over there in the first place.
Yes..just look at the great (not) contract ATI got.

zerozero
09-11-2018, 05:51 AM
The company has ceased negotiations.

Not only has the company successfully exhausted ALL of the various framework agreements, they are now in the process of exhausting ALL of their legal contingencies in an effort to string out this process as long as they can.

Expect nothing significant to happen soon as long as we are waiting to hear from the courts.

FR8Dog7
09-11-2018, 07:17 AM
Yes..just look at the great (not) contract ATI got.


And the crappy FedEx contracts (that is plural) that they have gotten. You keep buying Bob and his boys dinner for as long as you like. I understand they like the really good California Cabernet on your dime.

b707guy
09-11-2018, 07:40 AM
Yes..just look at the great (not) contract ATI got.


Yes..just look at the great (way more not) contract ATI came from. And it isn't even concessionary! :rolleyes:

JackStraw
09-11-2018, 08:03 AM
Yes..just look at the great (not) contract ATI got.

Have you seen the teamster carriers’ contracts? ATI makes 50% more than Atlas.

But at least the top guys at teamsters airline division are banking good pay.

nitefr8dog
09-11-2018, 09:06 AM
And the crappy FedEx contracts (that is plural) that they have gotten. You keep buying Bob and his boys dinner for as long as you like. I understand they like the really good California Cabernet on your dime.
Atlas ain't Fedex...not by along shot

nitefr8dog
09-11-2018, 09:08 AM
Have you seen the teamster carriers’ contracts? ATI makes 50% more than Atlas.

But at least the top guys at teamsters airline division are banking good pay.
50% of nothing is still nothing...

FR8Dog7
09-11-2018, 12:40 PM
How many years has it been since Atlas left ALPA and went to IBT now? What have they done in all of those years? How is that trip trade working out? And having your own local, not paying dues on profit sharing. etc, etc. Dave Bourne is making plenty, still holding a seniority slot as well as Caputo. You all have been bamboozled and then some! But you keep on paying that 2.5 %, it pays for the prime rib and king prawns. :D

NightIP
09-11-2018, 01:38 PM
Wow, the Company blatantly lies, breaks agreements, and drags us through the court system time after time again, but it's the union's fault?

Perhaps if some of you guys showed some backbone we'd have had this done by now, eh?

nitefr8dog
09-11-2018, 02:24 PM
How many years has it been since Atlas left ALPA and went to IBT now? What have they done in all of those years? How is that trip trade working out? And having your own local, not paying dues on profit sharing. etc, etc. Dave Bourne is making plenty, still holding a seniority slot as well as Caputo. You all have been bamboozled and then some! But you keep on paying that 2.5 %, it pays for the prime rib and king prawns. :D
You don't think ALPA MEC has surf and turf on your dime? What you think the hold their meetings at Subway? A union is as strong as it membership...the question is....will the Atlas pilots be willing to park airplanes if necessary? We saw how much help ALPA was when ABX went on strike and ALPA supported ATI crossing the picket line.... jackass's...

Itsajob
09-11-2018, 05:37 PM
You don't think ALPA MEC has surf and turf on your dime? What you think the hold their meetings at Subway? A union is as strong as it membership...the question is....will the Atlas pilots be willing to park airplanes if necessary? We saw how much help ALPA was when ABX went on strike and ALPA supported ATI crossing the picket line.... jackass's...
You don’t have to look to other airlines for ALPA to show its colors. Just ask the original Polar guys about the statement that they had to sign to end their strike saying that there would be no accountability or retribution for any ALPA pilots who crossed their lines. ALPA just wants a cut out of every check that they can and wouldn’t serve a company the size of Atlas any better than IBT.

flyguy727
09-11-2018, 11:08 PM
Why the duck are you limiting yourself to the 767? One comes to K4 to fly long haul freight unless you have personal reasons that make the 767 your choice of preference. I speak from the viewpoint of the majority of the company.

So I hear that if you work for K2, they won't let your transition over to K4, why is that, any idea?

CCpounder
09-12-2018, 12:33 AM
So I hear that if you work for K2, they won't let your transition over to K4, why is that, any idea?

Probably because K4 wouldn’t want to steal pilots from its sister operation, I’d imagine

No Land 3
09-12-2018, 02:51 AM
So I hear that if you work for K2, they won't let your transition over to K4, why is that, any idea?

Always been that way, I can only speculate an answer, which others have already done.

MD-11Loader
09-12-2018, 05:32 AM
Always been that way, I can only speculate an answer, which others have already done.

They don’t want to pay to train two pilots.

maxjet
09-12-2018, 06:02 AM
So I hear that if you work for K2, they won't let your transition over to K4, why is that, any idea?

Just my opinion. In addition to the valid responses you received above and on another thread, going to K2 is not a good idea for getting to K4. You go to K2 and fly very little, no international time, and no wide body time. Staying at a Commuter at least raises your Total time at a nice clip. Going to a wide body carrier gives you you that experience. K2,K4 are separate companies with separate owners who share certain administrative things. I think it was set up that way in case one lost their operating certificate. Assets could be shifted over to the other..

flyguy727
09-12-2018, 02:41 PM
They don’t want to pay to train two pilots.

Well, that one doesn't make much sence, because if they don't go to K4, they'll go else where, so you still have to train 2 pilots.

sky jet
09-12-2018, 06:14 PM
Well, that one doesn't make much sence, because if they don't go to K4, they'll go else where, so you still have to train 2 pilots.

I won't make a silly comment or insult you. The reality is that "sense", logic or anything like that does not apply here. You are dealing with people who have made decisions years ago and are not likely to reverse themselves regardless of whether it is still an effective policy or not. He who has the cash makes the rules. Those of us without the cash have to play by them.