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View Full Version : Skids off runway in FSD


7Thirty7s4Life
04-08-2018, 11:27 AM
Allegiant plane skids off runway at Sioux Falls airport (http://www.ksfy.com/content/news/Plane-skids-off-runway-at-Sioux-Falls-airport-479089863.html)


say again
04-08-2018, 11:49 AM
Heavy snow and x-winds are a b!tch. Nothing worse than that helpless feeling of losing control. I experienced it once, and luckily with a better outcome.

qball
04-08-2018, 12:13 PM
Thankfully sounds like all crew and pax are safe.


crxpilot
04-08-2018, 01:22 PM
Somebody should forward the memo to South Dakota that Spring officially started a few weeks ago!

say again
04-08-2018, 01:32 PM
Somebody should forward the memo to South Dakota that Spring officially started a few weeks ago!

The whole Northeast too...

Bravix
04-08-2018, 06:18 PM
Figured it must have happened when FlightAware was telling me it had landed 5 minutes ago, but there was no plane in sight from the terminal.

Perfect opportunity to use the back stairs though!

DENpilot
04-09-2018, 08:54 PM
SPECI KFSD 081633Z 12017G27KT 1/4SM +SN FZFG VV006 M02/M04
A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 14028/1607 TWR VIS 1/4 P0002
T10221039 RVRNO=

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY456/history/20180408/1432Z/KLAS/KFSD


I don't know of any commercial aircraft with a crosswind limit of greater than 15 knots on a contaminated runway.... Yet, they were clearly landing runway 21, with a 17 G 27 direct crosswind... Even if the MD-80 has a x-wind limit higher than that... who would attempt landing on that garbage with heavy snow, 1/4 mi vis and no RVR??? No smart pilot would.....

Good job, guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.

DENpilot
04-09-2018, 09:01 PM
Even more interesting.... the ILS to runway 21 cannot be shot without at least 1/2 mile vis....

TiredSoul
04-10-2018, 12:14 AM
Doesnít the MD-80 Ďsufferí from rudder blanking if thrust reverse is used in excess of 1.3 EPR?
If I recall correctly thatís what made Delta loose it at LakWadiaaa couple of years back.
Contaminated runway too.

PowderFinger
04-10-2018, 03:54 AM
Doesnít the MD-80 Ďsufferí from rudder blanking if thrust reverse is used in excess of 1.3 EPR?
If I recall correctly thatís what made Delta loose it at LakWadiaaa couple of years back.
Contaminated runway too.

Cleveland was always a popular spot for this as well.

Newstick189
04-10-2018, 06:40 AM
SPECI KFSD 081633Z 12017G27KT 1/4SM +SN FZFG VV006 M02/M04
A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 14028/1607 TWR VIS 1/4 P0002
T10221039 RVRNO=

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY456/history/20180408/1432Z/KLAS/KFSD


I don't know of any commercial aircraft with a crosswind limit of greater than 15 knots on a contaminated runway.... Yet, they were clearly landing runway 21, with a 17 G 27 direct crosswind... Even if the MD-80 has a x-wind limit higher than that... who would attempt landing on that garbage with heavy snow, 1/4 mi vis and no RVR??? No smart pilot would.....

Good job, guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.

Allegedly tower reported 5/5/5 and 1800rvr.

According to that, I would have also shot the approach.

ecam
04-10-2018, 06:42 AM
SPECI KFSD 081633Z 12017G27KT 1/4SM +SN FZFG VV006 M02/M04
A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 14028/1607 TWR VIS 1/4 P0002
T10221039 RVRNO=

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY456/history/20180408/1432Z/KLAS/KFSD


I don't know of any commercial aircraft with a crosswind limit of greater than 15 knots on a contaminated runway.... Yet, they were clearly landing runway 21, with a 17 G 27 direct crosswind... Even if the MD-80 has a x-wind limit higher than that... who would attempt landing on that garbage with heavy snow, 1/4 mi vis and no RVR??? No smart pilot would.....

Good job, guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.

https://www.abc15.com/news/national/frontier-airlines-plane-slides-on-runway-salt-lake-city-airport-closed-due-to-icy-runway

Hey DENpilot was this you? :rolleyes:

I mean really. Who shoots an approach in the heaviest freezing rain storm anyone can remember?

Good job guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.

julietalpha
04-10-2018, 06:45 AM
SPECI KFSD 081633Z 12017G27KT 1/4SM +SN FZFG VV006 M02/M04
A2981 RMK AO2 PK WND 14028/1607 TWR VIS 1/4 P0002
T10221039 RVRNO=

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/AAY456/history/20180408/1432Z/KLAS/KFSD


I don't know of any commercial aircraft with a crosswind limit of greater than 15 knots on a contaminated runway.... Yet, they were clearly landing runway 21, with a 17 G 27 direct crosswind... Even if the MD-80 has a x-wind limit higher than that... who would attempt landing on that garbage with heavy snow, 1/4 mi vis and no RVR??? No smart pilot would.....

Good job, guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.

Even more interesting.... the ILS to runway 21 cannot be shot without at least 1/2 mile vis....

Maybe before you throw stones, you do 5 seconds of research.

All I did is listen to the LiveATC archive -- and guess what I found:

Minutes before approach they were given a runway condition code of 5/5/5. Which means - WET - not contaminated - good braking action.

A few minutes before landing they were given the latest weather - Crosswind GUST didn't even exceed 20 knots. Runway 21 RVR TDZ (only controlling one for CAT1) of 1800.

And wouldn't you know, the approach chart for the ILS to 21 requires 1800 RVR.

So let me ask you, what would a "smart pilot" do? Not land on a runway that they are legal to per the most up to date information they were given?

Again, please do a few seconds of research before publicly calling out a fellow professional.

Lugar
04-10-2018, 06:49 AM
I heard that Maury Gallagher was on the airplane. This could get interesting.

mizza21
04-10-2018, 06:53 AM
https://www.abc15.com/news/national/frontier-airlines-plane-slides-on-runway-salt-lake-city-airport-closed-due-to-icy-runway

Hey DENpilot was this you? :rolleyes:

I mean really. Who shoots an approach in the heaviest freezing rain storm anyone can remember?

Good job guys. Lucky you didn't kill anyone.


Glad to see you know what's a Frontier airplane and what's not. :rolleyes:

Horrible attempt at humor.

JustWatching
04-10-2018, 07:01 AM
I heard that Maury Gallagher was on the airplane. This could get interesting.

No he wasnít, but even had he been, how would this get interesting as a result?

100LL
04-10-2018, 08:14 AM
Even more interesting.... the ILS to runway 21 cannot be shot without at least 1/2 mile vis....

21 is 1800 RVR for any aircraft. With snow, visibility is a roller coaster and when that last meter came out to when the plane began the approach for all we know rvr must have gone up enough to permit the approach.

Blackhawk
04-10-2018, 08:39 AM
There but for the grace of God go I.
Landing in DTW a few winters ago with a strong cross wind. We were the first one in after the runway cleared was cleared and were assured MU's better than 40. After touching down on 4R my feet went to the floor on the brakes and... we didn't slow down. Tower asked if we could make 9L. Nope. Y5? Nope. Finally slowed enough to make Y7. I told the tower braking action was poor at best, but I guess they didn't believe me. Big Blue Airbus landed after me and didn't get slowed until the end. He told them it was NIL. They believed him and shut it down.

BrewCity
04-10-2018, 09:27 AM
Even more interesting.... the ILS to runway 21 cannot be shot without at least 1/2 mile vis....

I'm seeing 1800 RVR required for the straight in ILS to 21 (assuming nothing was NOTAM'd inoperative).

GreatBigSea
04-10-2018, 11:24 AM
Glad to see you know what's a Frontier airplane and what's not. :rolleyes:

Horrible attempt at humor.

Like most news articles that show a picture of a Boeing but call it an Airbus, they got it wrong.

The article shows a picture of a 170 but states, "None of the 139 passengers on the flight from Denver was injured and the airplane never left the pavement..."

Reading is hard.

DENpilot
04-10-2018, 03:20 PM
Allegedly tower reported 5/5/5 and 1800rvr.

According to that, I would have also shot the approach.

I'm seeing 1800 RVR required for the straight in ILS to 21 (assuming nothing was NOTAM'd inoperative).

RVR has been NOTAM'd inop for a while now at KFSD.

hyde
04-10-2018, 03:43 PM
RVR has been NOTAM'd inop for a while now at KFSD.
Not sure that's accurate but I'm sure it will all get sorted out in an investigation. The real question is why are you here being a douche? This would be like me going on the F9 forum and running my mouth about how you all have a ****ty contract and will be stuck in mediation for another 5 years. If it is none of your business and you don't know what you're talking about then just ****.

DENpilot
04-10-2018, 04:27 PM
Not sure that's accurate but I'm sure it will all get sorted out in an investigation. The real question is why are you here being a douche? This would be like me going on the F9 forum and running my mouth about how you all have a ****ty contract and will be stuck in mediation for another 5 years. If it is none of your business and you don't know what you're talking about then just ****.

Yeah well having a ****ty contract does not equate to endangering the lives of a planeful of people. I have no tolerance for people who do stupid sh*t that is unsafe. Landing in heavy snow, RVR inop, 1/4 mi vis, direct gusting 27 kt xwind? Have some common sense! What happened to using good judgment as pilots? A/C limitations be damned. No way in hell I would attempt a landing in any commercial aircraft with the lives of the people behind me at stake.

If you were in your interview for the airline you are at now, and someone asked you if you'd land under those conditions, would you say yes?

hyde
04-10-2018, 04:51 PM
My point is you are talking out your a$$ cause you weren't there so you don't know the conditions or the information the crew had. That's why they do an investigation. But from looking back at your post history you seem like a dbag so I doubt anything I say here will change that. Carry on

310skying
04-10-2018, 04:54 PM
RCC of 5/5/5 and 1800rvr (with FD or AP) seems like the approach would be legal to me. I donít know about the mad dog side of the house but on the bus we have a chart from the company that says our x-wind limitation with a rcc of 5/5/5 is between 38kts and 25kts depending on the depth of dry snow. Sounds like they were legal to shoot the app. and had landing data that said they had enough distance for the conditions, but the RCC was not as advertised, it sucks, but it sounds like they used all of the info at their disposal and made a decision within opspecs and FARs. just sucks that the RCC wasnít accurate. Thankfully no one was hurt.

SkiVasquez
04-10-2018, 04:56 PM
Yeah well having a ****ty contract does not equate to endangering the lives of a planeful of people. I have no tolerance for people who do stupid sh*t that is unsafe. Landing in heavy snow, RVR inop, 1/4 mi vis, direct gusting 27 kt xwind? Have some common sense! What happened to using good judgment as pilots? A/C limitations be damned. No way in hell I would attempt a landing in any commercial aircraft with the lives of the people behind me at stake.

If you were in your interview for the airline you are at now, and someone asked you if you'd land under those conditions, would you say yes?

I didnít realize you flew the 80 at F9. Iíd love to hear more about what our procedures and limitations are. Post that METAR all you want. Tower reported RVR or vis is controlling. Iíve yet to see you post anything about any RCC values either (Iím assuming it doesnít fit your narrative so why would you include it?!?).

Way to take cheap shots at your fellow pilots without knowing all of the facts. Iím sure youíre an absolute pleasure to fly with. Youíll make a fantastic management pilot one day (thatís not a compliment btw).

Slayer1234
04-10-2018, 05:43 PM
Yeah well having a ****ty contract does not equate to endangering the lives of a planeful of people. I have no tolerance for people who do stupid sh*t that is unsafe. Landing in heavy snow, RVR inop, 1/4 mi vis, direct gusting 27 kt xwind? Have some common sense! What happened to using good judgment as pilots? A/C limitations be damned. No way in hell I would attempt a landing in any commercial aircraft with the lives of the people behind me at stake.

If you were in your interview for the airline you are at now, and someone asked you if you'd land under those conditions, would you say yes?

Wow you should get a job at the NTSB or FAA since your able to solve the whole thing by reading a news article and an a METAR. Or maybe you should tell your airline you should be head of flight standards since you are a much better pilot than anyone else. Then again maybe you should just pull your head out of your ass and admit you where a little premature about your conclusion here

N1sync
04-10-2018, 08:28 PM
You think the company's gonna keep badgering us to keep the operation going with the "is it safe? is it legal?" mantra?? Seems like there might be more to the equation.

SactisbonesBJ
04-10-2018, 09:56 PM
RCC of 5/5/5 and 1800rvr (with FD or AP) seems like the approach would be legal to me. I donít know about the mad dog side of the house but on the bus we have a chart from the company that says our x-wind limitation with a rcc of 5/5/5 is between 38kts and 25kts depending on the depth of dry snow. Sounds like they were legal to shoot the app. and had landing data that said they had enough distance for the conditions, but the RCC was not as advertised, it sucks, but it sounds like they used all of the info at their disposal and made a decision within opspecs and FARs. just sucks that the RCC wasnít accurate. Thankfully no one was hurt.

Come on, use your head - just because something is legal doesnt make it safe. These guys shouldn't have even attempted an appch

9easy
04-10-2018, 10:58 PM
Some really pitiful Monday quaterbacking from other pilots... Perhaps it must be aggravating for a crusty F9 pilot at the top of their sad payscale to be making less than a 2nd year G4 pilot, but being based in Denver doesn't make you the master of winter flying.

The ATC tapes are easily available online now to anyone who can grasp a google search. Have a quick listen before you throw your colleagues under the bus. Most of the info propagated on this thread is not accurate.

vilcas
04-11-2018, 03:03 AM
There is a common thread in many of these runway excursions due to poor braking action, bad information from tower. When there is heavy snow you must assume that reports are not as reliable as when there is light snow. Literally the minute after they brushed and sanded the runway and came up with 555 the contaminant is starting to impact braking action. While I am not aware of the facts of this event I urge everyone to take tower reports with a grain of salt. They arenít the ones flying the plane.

310skying
04-11-2018, 06:46 AM
Come on, use your head - just because something is legal doesnt make it safe. These guys shouldn't have even attempted an appch

Do you know what an RCC is ? There is nothing bad about shooting an approach to mins and landing with an RCC of 555

labbats
04-11-2018, 08:03 AM
Come on, use your head - just because something is legal doesnt make it safe. These guys shouldn't have even attempted an appch

Great in theory. But now imagine youíve diverted and landed at another field... you get a call asking why you diverted when everything was legal and within limits.

Iíd like to hear how that conversation goes for you.

Blaming pilots in this scenario seems like a bad idea. Iím much more inclined to blame whoever rated the runway conditions as 5/5/5.

The Ocho Libre
04-11-2018, 09:08 AM
It never fails that any time an aircraft incident occurs, we hear negative commentary from a select few of the Monday morning QBs that tell us about their superior aviating skills and decision making while they have no facts to back up their commentary. Its a shame there isn't a psychology test to weed them out.

vilcas
04-11-2018, 09:38 AM
Do you know what an RCC is ? There is nothing bad about shooting an approach to mins and landing with an RCC of 555

RCC is only valid at the time it was done. In heavy snow conditions change rapidly. I have seen runways called bare and wet covered in snow.

BrewCity
04-11-2018, 09:40 AM
Facts from the LiveATC archive sound clip -

Sioux Falls Tower told Allegiant 456 the wind was 130/16G21, RVR1800, Braking action had been reported good by a CRJ 20 minutes prior. After landing, tower tells the crew to allegiant to report exiting the runway, the crew responds, and then adds "braking action pretty much nil." Moments later, the Allegiant crew reported that they had gone straight off the departure end of the runway.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfsd/KFSD-Twr-App-Dep-ZMP-Apr-08-2018-1630Z.mp3

Landing clearance / RVR report is around the 7:00 mark
After touchdown comments around the 9:00 mark

The Ocho Libre
04-11-2018, 10:25 AM
RCC is only valid at the time it was done. In heavy snow conditions change rapidly. I have seen runways called bare and wet covered in snow.

So what we are to read from that comment is that despite planes landing ahead of you reporting good braking, and planes approaching to land behind you and not diverting, YOU would have the foresight to know that the runway conditions may have changed enough that you would divert to the alternate. Riiiiiggghhhht

vilcas
04-11-2018, 11:20 AM
So what we are to read from that comment is that despite planes landing ahead of you reporting good braking, and planes approaching to land behind you and not diverting, YOU would have the foresight to know that the runway conditions may have changed enough that you would divert to the alternate. Riiiiiggghhhht

I can tell from this comment that you are new to the industry, welcome. This isn't about foresight, its about judgement. I was only pointing out that observations made during rapidly changing conditions should be taken with a grain of salt. What the aircraft behind you will do should not be part of your decision making process. Be safe and do the best to get as much information before making the decision. Things don't feel right don't do it. RCAM is not absolute. There are countless examples of reported conditions being different than encountered.

FreshWater
04-11-2018, 11:43 AM
I can tell from this comment that you are new to the industry, welcome. This isn't about foresight, its about judgement. I was only pointing out that observations made during rapidly changing conditions should be taken with a grain of salt. What the aircraft behind you will do should not be part of your decision making process. Be safe and do the best to get as much information before making the decision. Things don't feel right don't do it. RCAM is not absolute. There are countless examples of reported conditions being different than encountered.

To what airline is the beneficiary of your greatness? And youíre not a condescending little internet prick, I donít care what anybody says.

The Ocho Libre
04-11-2018, 12:23 PM
I can tell from this comment that you are new to the industry, welcome. This isn't about foresight, its about judgement. I was only pointing out that observations made during rapidly changing conditions should be taken with a grain of salt. What the aircraft behind you will do should not be part of your decision making process. Be safe and do the best to get as much information before making the decision. Things don't feel right don't do it. RCAM is not absolute. There are countless examples of reported conditions being different than encountered.

Been in the industry plenty long. That comment alone proves my point about people like you. You think you know everything.

You seem to have some extra skill to avoid anything ever happening to you and thank you so much for sharing your incredible knowledge about changing runway conditions during snowfall. Clearly you are better than anyone else at aviating and we are lucky to have you out there and here on the forum, to keep us in check.

I just have to know what it is that should have made this crew feel that "things don't feel right" and divert? They have a legal RVR, runway 555, just like I'm sure they've seen where we fly at least dozens of times. Aircraft departing and arriving ALL day. What is this 6th sense you have that we can utilize to make sure this never happens again in the industry? Should we all divert if its 555 but snowing?

Every year a couple crews get bit by this at various airlines. I'm sure you can so please help out.

Blackhawk
04-11-2018, 01:44 PM
Facts from the LiveATC archive sound clip -

Sioux Falls Tower told Allegiant 456 the wind was 130/16G21, RVR1800, Braking action had been reported good by a CRJ 20 minutes prior. After landing, tower tells the crew to allegiant to report exiting the runway, the crew responds, and then adds "braking action pretty much nil." Moments later, the Allegiant crew reported that they had gone straight off the departure end of the runway.

http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kfsd/KFSD-Twr-App-Dep-ZMP-Apr-08-2018-1630Z.mp3

Landing clearance / RVR report is around the 7:00 mark
After touchdown comments around the 9:00 mark

Doesn't sound like cross wind or visibility was an issue if they went off the end. That's a braking action problem. Like I wrote earlier, I had the same problem on 4R at DTW where the MU's were reported as better than 40. If it wasn't a 12,000' runway I probably would have gone off the end.

T28driver
04-11-2018, 02:48 PM
The last ship I worked on before heading shoreside was a 300í long high speed catamaran made out of aluminum. We routinely ran at 30-35 knots in cruise, which is really fast for a ship that size.

I remember being on the bridge doing some paperwork one afternoon off the coast of West Africa. There were whales everywhere. The chief mate had the watch, but the captain, chief engineer, and 2nd mate were all up there too. Every couple of minutes the chief mate would yell ďhand steering, hard right/leftĒ to dodge another whale.

After about 10 minutes of this I looked up from my paperwork and said ďMan, canít wait for it to get dark so they all go away!Ē

This was met with silence and angry stare from everyone else up there, because I had talked about the thing we werenít supposed to mention.

Whales? Debris? Submerged containers? Wooden, unlit fishing vessels that donít show up on radar?

In the day, we would maneuver around them. At night? If it didnít have a radar reflector or lights, straight on Ďtil morning.

The watchatanders on that ship all talked about how we were relieved to turn over the watch each night and let somebody else wear the target for four hours.

I feel the same way now every time I land in the snow at a smaller airport reporting 5-5-5 RCC.

The crew on this flight look to have done the best they could in the situation. The aircraft will fly again, everyone walked off, and they handled it as professionals when things went bad. Provided that it doesnít turn out that they landed halfway down the runway 20 knots over ref, Iíd say they did a good job. Canít really ask for more.

crxpilot
04-11-2018, 03:21 PM
Iíve got a nice Glass house to give ya.......

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/2prXdoC2PuMukOuN-nWxyA7ockQ=/0x0:4134x2746/1820x1213/filters:focal(1737x1043:2397x1703)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/52720821/8.0.jpg

sqwkvfr
04-11-2018, 07:57 PM
Some really ignorant people on here.

Thereís a saying in South Dakota: If you donít like the weather, wait a few minutes, itíll change.

The worldís fastest temperature change happened in South Dakota. Some of aviationís strangest and most unpredictable weather-related events happened in South Dakota: The NWA DC-9 flying through a tornado; the Skywest aircraft encountering very severe icing on final to RAP.

CB tops regularly reach FL600. One would be hard pressed to find more powerful and violent thunderstorms anywhere on the planet. It has been host to some of the strongest tornadoes ever recorded...google Spencer, South Dakota and check out the images. Snowstorms have shut down the state for weeks and ice storms have left farm homes without power for nearly a month.

My point is that the weather in that state is strange, highly unpredictable and oftentimes violent. Those passing judgement on this flight crew are exposing their own ignorance and immaturity.

Grow up.

grnclvrs
04-12-2018, 05:28 AM
RVR has been NOTAM'd inop for a while now at KFSD.

No it hasn't.

[URL="https://notams.aim.faa.gov/notamSearch/nsapp.html#/results"[/URL]


Location Number Class Start Date UTC End Date UTC 1 Condition
Construction FSD N/A Aerodrome 12/17/2015 1548 PERM ON AIRPORT - SEE CONSTRUCTION GRAPHIC

Digital NOTAM FSD 03/238 Navaid 03/29/2018 1712 03/29/2019 1800EST NAV TACAN AZM OUT OF SERVICE 1803291712-1903291800EST

Digital NOTAM FSD 7/7304 Procedure 10/04/2017 1812 05/16/2018 1812EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. RNAV (GPS) RWY 3,
AMDT 1B... LNAV/VNAV DA 1726/HAT 302 ALL CATS. 1710041812-1805161812EST

Digital NOTAM FSD 03/015 Communication 03/05/2018 1605 05/01/2018 1800EST COM REMOTE TRANS/REC 267.9 CHANGED TO 284.725
1803051605-1805011800EST

Digital NOTAM FSD 03/118 Aerodrome 03/12/2018 1736 05/01/2018 0400 AD AP BIRD ACT INCREASED 1803121736-1805010400

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/7664 Procedure 03/26/2018 1453 04/24/2018 1453EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. VOR OR TACAN RWY 15,
AMDT 21D... VOR/DME OR TACAN RWY 33, AMDT 12D... TACAN PORTION NA, FSD TACAN AZIMUTH OUT OF SERVICE. 1803261453-1804241453EST

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/6127 Procedure 03/22/2018 1338 04/23/2018 1338EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. RNAV (GPS) RWY 15,
AMDT 1A... LNAV MDA 2020/HAT 591 ALL CATS. VIS CATS C/D 1 3/4. CIRCLING CATS A/B MDA 2020/HAA 590. VDP AT 1.7 NM TO RW15. CRANE, 1702 MSL, 2.4 N...

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/6128 Procedure 03/22/2018 1338 04/23/2018 1338EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. VOR OR TACAN RWY 15,
AMDT 21D... S-15 MDA 2020/HAT 591 ALL CATS. VIS CATS C/D/E 1 3/4. CIRCLING CAT C MDA 2020/HAA 590. VIS CATS C 1 3/4. VDP AT FSD 2.01 DME; DIST...

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/6130 Procedure 03/22/2018 1338 04/23/2018 1338EST IAP U.S. DOD JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. HI - TACAN
RWY 15, AMDT 8B... S-15 CATS C/D/E MDA 2020/HAT 591. VIS CATS C/D/E 1 3/4. CIRCLING CAT C MDA 2020/HAA 590. VIS CATS C 1 3/4. VDP AT FSD 2.01 D...

FSD 03/173 Obstruction 03/21/2018 1854 04/21/2018 1200 OBST TOWER LGT (ASR 1226459) 433733.80N0963537.30W (7.0NM
ENE FSD) 1677.2FT (263.1FT AGL) OUT OF SERVICE 1803211854-1804211200

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/7848 Procedure 04/12/2018 1430 04/19/2018 0127EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. ILS OR LOC RWY 3,
AMDT 27F... MISSED APPROACH: CLIMB TO 3400 THEN CLIMBING LEFT TURN DIRECT ROKKY LOM/RADAR AND HOLD SW, LT, 029.89 INBOUND. RADAR REQUIRED FOR PRO...

Digital NOTAM FSD 8/7851 Procedure 04/12/2018 1430 04/19/2018 0127EST IAP JOE FOSS FIELD, Sioux Falls, SD. ILS OR LOC RWY 21,
AMDT 10B... PROCEDURE NA EXCEPT FOR AIRCRAFT EQUIPPED WITH SUITABLE RNAV SYSTEM WITH GPS, FSD VORTAC OUT OF SERVICE. 1804121430-1804190127EST

Closed FSD 04/108 Aerodrome 04/12/2018 1400 04/12/2018 2200 RWY 03/21 CLSD 1804121400-1804122200

Closed FSD 04/112 Aerodrome 04/12/2018 1400 04/12/2018 2200 RWY 09/27 CLSD 1804121400-1804122200

Digital NOTAM FSD M0031/18 Military 04/11/2018 2146 04/12/2018 1700 RWY 03 BAK-14 ARRESTING SYSTEM UNSERVICEABLE

Digital NOTAM FSD M0032/18 Military 04/11/2018 2147 04/12/2018 1700 RWY 21 BAK-14 ARRESTING SYSTEM UNSERVICEABLE

Digital NOTAM FSD M0033/18 Military 04/11/2018 2147 04/12/2018 1700 RWY 15 BAK-14 ARRESTING SYSTEM UNSERVICEABLE

Digital NOTAM FSD M0034/18 Military 04/11/2018 2148 04/12/2018 1700 RWY 33 BAK-14 ARRESTING SYSTEM UNSERVICEABLE

Digital NOTAM FSD 04/111 Navaid 04/12/2018 1430 04/12/2018 1630 NAV VORTAC OUT OF SERVICE 1804121430-1804121630

FSD 04/113 Aerodrome 04/12/2018 1430 04/12/2018 1630 SVC HAZARDOUS INFLIGHT WX ADVISORY SERVICE OUTLET OUT OF
SERVICE 1804121430-1804121630

FreshWater
04-12-2018, 09:57 AM
Even more interesting.... the ILS to runway 21 cannot be shot without at least 1/2 mile vis....

RVR has been NOTAM'd inop for a while now at KFSD.



DENpilot = Fake News

wette460
04-12-2018, 12:35 PM
Based on the information at hand, this could have happened to any one of us. I'm really surprised to see all the negative comments about the crew's decision making on here. Of course weather changes, but there was no justifiable reason based on the information at hand to divert in this situation. Anyone who thinks otherwise I wouldn't want to fly with because their ego is getting in the way of seeing the facts.

Perhaps there were some other factors at work here, but like any incident, let's wait until we hear the full report until we start pointing fingers at anyone...especially our fellow pilots.

ecam
04-13-2018, 11:56 AM
I heard that Maury Gallagher was on the airplane. This could get interesting.


Did you hear that from "Marsha"? :D:rolleyes:

Maury was NOT on the plane.


Funny, I just got off the phone with Mauryís assistant Marsha, and we scheduled another phone call for next week.

GravellyPointer
04-29-2018, 08:26 PM
The worldís fastest temperature change happened in South Dakota. Some of aviationís strangest and most unpredictable weather-related events happened in South Dakota: The NWA DC-9 flying through a tornado; the Skywest aircraft encountering very severe icing on final to RAP.



CB tops regularly reach FL600. One would be hard pressed to find more powerful and violent thunderstorms anywhere on the planet. It has been host to some of the strongest tornadoes ever recorded...google Spencer, South Dakota and check out the images. Snowstorms have shut down the state for weeks and ice storms have left farm homes without power for nearly a month.







Grow up.


AFAIK the NWA DC-9 flew near a storm that was produced a tornado, it didnít fly through a tornado. A KLM Fokker Jet did, and all aboard died when it crashed.

A CA friend from my airline was holding short of runway 21 and saw Allegiant pass over, according to him they were high and he never saw them touchdown. He was surprised they were shooting the approach. With 1800 RVR itís not surprising he didnít see them touchdown. I am assuming the feds will determine their touchdown point. At my regional we are taught we have to touch down on the thousand foot markers on a contaminated runway that is the minimum distance available for the conditions.
Savvy pilots should plan for worse RCC and braking action than reported if there has been any significant time since the last report when snow is falling, especially moderate or heavy snow. They were in a tough spot. They took the risk and did a good job getting it stopped.


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sqwkvfr
04-30-2018, 05:52 AM
AFAIK the NWA DC-9 flew near a storm that was produced a tornado, it didn’t fly through a tornado. A KLM Fokker Jet did, and all aboard died when it crashed.

A CA friend from my airline was holding short of runway 21 and saw Allegiant pass over, according to him they were high and he never saw them touchdown. He was surprised they were shooting the approach. With 1800 RVR it’s not surprising he didn’t see them touchdown. I am assuming the feds will determine their touchdown point. At my regional we are taught we have to touch down on the thousand foot markers on a contaminated runway that is the minimum distance available for the conditions.
Savvy pilots should plan for worse RCC and braking action than reported if there has been any significant time since the last report when snow is falling, especially moderate or heavy snow. They were in a tough spot. They took the risk and did a good job getting it stopped.


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Was this a drunk post? I’m having hard time understanding the point or the theme...it swerves all over the place.

...and the NWA DC9 flew immediately adjacent to the tornado, as witnessed by a county storm spotter who was near the airport and having a recorded conversation with Minnehaha County Metro Communications (their public safety dispatching agency) and stated by the FO after the go-around.

ecam
04-30-2018, 06:21 AM
AFAIK the NWA DC-9 flew near a storm that was produced a tornado, it didnít fly through a tornado. A KLM Fokker Jet did, and all aboard died when it crashed.

A CA friend from my airline was holding short of runway 21 and saw Allegiant pass over, according to him they were high and he never saw them touchdown. He was surprised they were shooting the approach. With 1800 RVR itís not surprising he didnít see them touchdown. I am assuming the feds will determine their touchdown point. At my regional we are taught we have to touch down on the thousand foot markers on a contaminated runway that is the minimum distance available for the conditions.
Savvy pilots should plan for worse RCC and braking action than reported if there has been any significant time since the last report when snow is falling, especially moderate or heavy snow. They were in a tough spot. They took the risk and did a good job getting it stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Let me guess. Skywest? :rolleyes:

Thanks for that sage advice, Professor. Also kind of you patronize pilots who probably have a lot more flying experience than you do. But I'm sure you learned all that aeronautical knowledge at The Harvard of the Sky. Thanks for weighing in. That settles it then.

GravellyPointer
04-30-2018, 06:39 AM
Was this a drunk post? Iím having hard time understanding the point or the theme...it swerves all over the place.

...and the NWA DC9 flew immediately adjacent to the tornado, as witnessed by a county storm spotter who was near the airport and having a recorded conversation with Minnehaha County Metro Communications (their public safety dispatching agency) and stated by the FO after the go-around.



Absolutely sober, late night after a short day.

Thanks for correcting the bit about the NWA DC-9 and the tornado, while not acknowledging the factual incorrectness of your original statement.



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GravellyPointer
04-30-2018, 06:43 AM
Let me guess. Skywest? :rolleyes:



Thanks for that sage advice, Professor. Also kind of you patronize pilots who probably have a lot more flying experience than you do. But I'm sure you learned all that aeronautical knowledge at The Harvard of the Sky. Thanks for weighing in. That settles it then.



I gave them credit for getting it stopped! I didnít write they shouldnít have continued the approach, I am waiting for the outcome, if there is an investigation.

Not SkyWest. I flew the MD-80 for Vanguard Airlines in 2002.

And Iím done with this thread. Got too
Much to do than continue to respond to your bait. You and squakvfr reminded me why I donít post often. You two could be much less jerky.




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ecam
04-30-2018, 06:50 AM
I gave them credit for getting it stopped! I didnít write they shouldnít have continued the approach, I am waiting for the outcome, if there is an investigation.

Not SkyWest. I flew the MD-80 for Vanguard Airlines in 2002.

And Iím done with this thread. Got too
Much to do than continue to respond to your bait. You and squakvfr reminded me why I donít post often. You two could be much less jerky.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Less jerky? You mean like Jack Links? That's some tasty stuff.

sqwkvfr
04-30-2018, 07:11 AM
You and squakvfr reminded me why I don’t post often. You two could be much less jerky.

You took it upon yourself to interject your unsolicited pugnacious, self-righteous and condescending attitude into this thread and we’re the problem??

Get lost.

The Ocho Libre
04-30-2018, 09:25 AM
It is so obvious the crew was already at taxi speed well before they even got to the end of the runway. The FO calmly gave a braking report mid field. Doubt he'd do that careening down the runway while unable to stop. Don't understand why anyone would even bring up touchdown zone, wind or RVR with that in mind.

When they went to turn off the runway at the end, the plane probably didn't turn. Engine idle thrust was likely enough to overcome braking action, and they went off the end at slow taxi speed. Happens to one airline or another every year. This is the risk we ALL take flying into those conditions. The braking action report was wrong. That's a big deal. We need that to be right or at least close. Don't give a crew "good" when its F'ing "NIL." Come on!

Only way to avoid this is to never fly in snowing conditions or anytime ice is even possible. Cancel my flights with pay protection, you wont hear any arguments from me. Otherwise, if you want year round flying, this is going to happen, and we don't need second guessing from management or worse, fellow aviators, who should know better. Might be you next time Iceman. Think about it.

FreshWater
04-30-2018, 12:18 PM
AFAIK the NWA DC-9 flew near a storm that was produced a tornado, it didnít fly through a tornado. A KLM Fokker Jet did, and all aboard died when it crashed.

A CA friend from my airline was holding short of runway 21 and saw Allegiant pass over, according to him they were high and he never saw them touchdown. He was surprised they were shooting the approach. With 1800 RVR itís not surprising he didnít see them touchdown. I am assuming the feds will determine their touchdown point. At my regional we are taught we have to touch down on the thousand foot markers on a contaminated runway that is the minimum distance available for the conditions.
Savvy pilots should plan for worse RCC and braking action than reported if there has been any significant time since the last report when snow is falling, especially moderate or heavy snow. They were in a tough spot. They took the risk and did a good job getting it stopped.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

He must work for 60 minutes. Thereíre desperate to re-pressurize their failed anti Allegiant expose.



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