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View Full Version : Logbook for RTP


Big Windy
04-09-2018, 12:59 PM
I'm currently a rotor guy preparing for the RTP world and I haven't kept a personal logbook. I'm wondering what the best way forward is from the community.

1) I can go through CAFRS and get historicals from all of my previous -12's and input them into a digital logbook but with limited information.

2) Start keeping one today and then just reference my DA 759 in any interviews as previously flown time. So I would have my 759 with the majority of my time and then an electronic logbook as well with a little bit of helicopter time and then my fixed wing time as well. Then I would confess that I hadn't kept a logbook until this date (which might look bad).

3) Keep my rotor stuff completely separate from any fixed wing. (But by doing that I wouldn't be able to show the cross-country time that I'm accumulating now).

Any other ideas?


rickair7777
04-09-2018, 04:45 PM
If your military branch kept your logbooks for you, then it shouldn't be a big deal that you didn't also log it yourself. Start a logbook now, include any miscellaneous non-mil flights which you have records of. Make one entry, today's date, covering all previous mil time.

Then log each flight going forward. Do retain your mil hardcopies as part of your logbook.

Big Windy
04-10-2018, 09:28 AM
Awesome. Thank you for the help!


Fenderbean
04-10-2018, 01:48 PM
im in the same boat never kept any of my 3000+ hours in an official logbook. You can do a one-line entry in your log book with a break down of your military hours. Im just guessing, but I would think the important thing to show would be the required RTP minimums per the CFR.

Big Windy
04-11-2018, 12:08 AM
Yeah I've thought about that. Specifically, the 200 cross-country hours. I know that I have that time, but unfortunately I can't show it since I don't have a record of it. :/

Blackhawk
04-11-2018, 06:52 AM
1. As written above, do a one line entry.
2. Do a conservative entry for cross country time. I think I figured 50%.
3. Get familiar with the FAA logging of flight time. For example, if you are receiving dual in an aircraft which you are certified to fly. So when you get your instrument airplane after your private airplane all that dual time is logged as PIC even in IMC.
Another example, you can log multiple conditions with the FAA, so night AND IMC, not one or the other like the Army.
4. Get a computer logbook program to supplement your paper logbook. This will greatly help you to break down flight time for airlines. Try to find one that will interact with crew scheduling software such as mccPilotlog. I use this one and it is very easy. I synch it once my schedule comes out and all my trips are populated. Once I finish a trip I synch again and the times for that trip are automatically populated based upon my out/off/on/in times. It even automatically figures when you have night time. All I have to do is plug in instrument time and approaches.

rickair7777
04-11-2018, 07:39 AM
I would be very reluctant to log time based on an estimate if you need that time for verification. The FAA is entitled to a detailed accounting if they ever ask. It can be in any format, scribbled on yellow stickies or whatever, but it would need to be in detail.

If you had the details at one point and lost them, you could probably get away with a plausible sum total that was based on the details that you had at one time.

Also regarding PIC, there are two types:

Sole manipulator. This is what you get when you are flying under the supervision of a CFI or PIC. It is loggable and useable for some FAA purposes. But most civilian employers do not count this as actual PIC, it's good to log but keep it in a separate column.

Actual PIC. You're the boss and signed for the airplane. This is the captain/PIC, check airman, or CFI. Never the SIC or student.

Don't mix these two, you'll fail the logbook review at an interview.

Blackhawk
04-11-2018, 09:30 AM
I would be very reluctant to log time based on an estimate if you need that time for verification. The FAA is entitled to a detailed accounting if they ever ask. It can be in any format, scribbled on yellow stickies or whatever, but it would need to be in detail.

If you had the details at one point and lost them, you could probably get away with a plausible sum total that was based on the details that you had at one time.

Also regarding PIC, there are two types:

Sole manipulator. This is what you get when you are flying under the supervision of a CFI or PIC. It is loggable and useable for some FAA purposes. But most civilian employers do not count this as actual PIC, it's good to log but keep it in a separate column.

Actual PIC. You're the boss and signed for the airplane. This is the captain/PIC, check airman, or CFI. Never the SIC or student.

Don't mix these two, you'll fail the logbook review at an interview.

Unfortunately with cross country time there is no real way to figure it as it is not something tracked by the military. I've spoken to the FAA and employers during interviews about this and none had an issue with a conservative estimate based upon the platform I flew.
You are correct about PIC time which is another reason to use an electronic logbook.

Fenderbean
04-11-2018, 03:04 PM
I have 800+ hours from my Iraq deployment I know all of it is cross county considering we flew about 45 minutes every mission just to get to the mission area, I could do the same for Afghanistan consider the distance and time we fly during the mission sets.

Blackhawk
04-11-2018, 05:40 PM
I have 800+ hours from my Iraq deployment I know all of it is cross county considering we flew about 45 minutes every mission just to get to the mission area, I could do the same for Afghanistan consider the distance and time we fly during the mission sets.
That kind of how I figured it, though as an IP in those situations I had some local pattern time. Still, saying 50% of it was cross country was probably very conservative.

Fenderbean
04-12-2018, 05:42 AM
That kind of how I figured it, though as an IP in those situations I had some local pattern time. Still, saying 50% of it was cross country was probably very conservative.

That's one of the unique things about our job, just about everything is cross country when you look at the distances we travel in a three hour bag of gas. To make it easy anything PC Combat will be cross county PIC time. Plus don't forget based on the FAA time logging you can add about a .2 to everything.

rickair7777
04-12-2018, 06:44 AM
Unfortunately with cross country time there is no real way to figure it as it is not something tracked by the military. I've spoken to the FAA and employers during interviews about this and none had an issue with a conservative estimate based upon the platform I flew.
You are correct about PIC time which is another reason to use an electronic logbook.

I get that's it reasonable, but you might run into a Fed or employer who is not reasonable. I would try to avoid admitting that's it's an estimate.

Another poster mentioned he knew 800 hours in Iraq were all XC because of the geometry.... that's a fact even if he didn't log it at the time, and he could get out a map and prove it to a reasonable degree. That's a better way to do it if you can.

Just be careful with that one.

BeatNavy
04-12-2018, 07:08 AM
That's one of the unique things about our job, just about everything is cross country when you look at the distances we travel in a three hour bag of gas. To make it easy anything PC Combat will be cross county PIC time. Plus don't forget based on the FAA time logging you can add about a .2 to everything.

To play devilís advocate to the combat = XC time, I saw plenty of hawks that did not travel 50nm (92km) from the point of departure in Iraq and Afghanistan. The ones on ring routes generally did, but often times on air assaults, medevacs, KLEs, etc, the total straight line distance didnít exceed 50nm, the requirement for cross country time to be logged for an airplane ATP.

Also, no CFR says you can add .2 to army or mil logging. AR95-1 and the FAA have similar logging definitions. CFR 1.1 covers it: ďFlight time means:(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.Ē While civilians generally use Hobbs meters to log time, the definition is clear and doesnít differ from army logging other than the army lets you log until the engine is shutdown. AIRLINES allow conversions for military sorties, but that exists in large part because the Air Force doesnít allow for much (any?) taxi time to be logged, so airlines allow for a predetermined conversion per sortie to be used to include taxi time that is otherwise allowable in civilian logs.

I know one fighter dude who had 1400 hours and wanted an unrestricted ATP when doing an airline initial, so the FSDO and APD required him to make a logbook that showed each sortie and taxi time to make/add 100 hours to his Air Force recorded time. He had no record of it before, but was allowed to prove that his taxi time allowed by FAA logging allowed him to have the 1500 hour minimum. Obviously he had to estimate that. But that isnít applicable to army helicopter dudes since our army time counted taxi time.

Big Windy
04-12-2018, 07:53 AM
Plus don't forget based on the FAA time logging you can add about a .2 to everything.

I'm hesitant to do this one. I know some airlines have their own conversion that they will add, but others do not so I plan on not adding anything to mine.

BeatNavy
04-12-2018, 08:35 AM
I'm hesitant to do this one. I know some airlines have their own conversion that they will add, but others do not so I plan on not adding anything to mine.

Thatís smart. Your 759 needs to match your logbook period dot. Any discrepancies need to be taken care of by flight ops before your final close out. If you bring a 759 that differs from your personal army logbook, or if any conversions were done on your own and not specifically authorized by the airline, your interview probably wonít go very well (except maybe at regionals who will hire anyone).

Hobbit64
04-12-2018, 07:41 PM
Thatís smart. Your 759 needs to match your logbook period dot. Any discrepancies need to be taken care of by flight ops before your final close out. If you bring a 759 that differs from your personal army logbook, or if any conversions were done on your own and not specifically authorized by the airline, your interview probably wonít go very well (except maybe at regionals who will hire anyone).

I just interviewed with a major and made a spread sheet detailing my times with sortie count for PC and PI time that delineated an aggregate or raw flight time breakdown with a 0.3/sortie column right next to it. I set it up so that I can just update the times ( PC or PI ) and sortie counts and the formulas take care of all the rest. If you take the time to develop a good spread sheet, it make it very easy to update your Airline Apps or Pilot Creds on a 10 hour basis when you're on overnights.

Additionally, I made a block on the spreadsheet that showed how the difference between my 759 and my personal logbook occurred. Incorrect/lazy flight ops personnel, Co-Pilot times, missions not logged because Flt Ops closed before the flying stopped in theater etc. Other than Co-Pilot time, I had about 50 hours to account for out of over 7000 hours and it wasn't a problem at all with the spread sheet detailing the deviation down to 0.0 (Blutasky's Grade point average). I had both set up so that I did not have to be present to explain the deviation. Also, the 759 had more time than my logbooks.

Fenderbean
04-13-2018, 11:52 AM
To play devil’s advocate to the combat = XC time, I saw plenty of hawks that did not travel 50nm (92km) from the point of departure in Iraq and Afghanistan. The ones on ring routes generally did, but often times on air assaults, medevacs, KLEs, etc, the total straight line distance didn’t exceed 50nm, the requirement for cross country time to be logged for an airplane ATP.

Also, no CFR says you can add .2 to army or mil logging. AR95-1 and the FAA have similar logging definitions. CFR 1.1 covers it: “Flight time means:(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing.” While civilians generally use Hobbs meters to log time, the definition is clear and doesn’t differ from army logging other than the army lets you log until the engine is shutdown. AIRLINES allow conversions for military sorties, but that exists in large part because the Air Force doesn’t allow for much (any?) taxi time to be logged, so airlines allow for a predetermined conversion per sortie to be used to include taxi time that is otherwise allowable in civilian logs.

I know one fighter dude who had 1400 hours and wanted an unrestricted ATP when doing an airline initial, so the FSDO and APD required him to make a logbook that showed each sortie and taxi time to make/add 100 hours to his Air Force recorded time. He had no record of it before, but was allowed to prove that his taxi time allowed by FAA logging allowed him to have the 1500 hour minimum. Obviously he had to estimate that. But that isn’t applicable to army helicopter dudes since our army time counted taxi time.
You seem to do that with my post, my deployment in Iraq area of operation was over that, every day we took off and flew 40mins SE to hit the farp before we even started operations. Afghanistan was very similar flying up the Kunar and to all the other FOBs around area the region. Im a 64 guy we dont run the daily FOB hop routes like lift and normally travel long distances responding to TICs or just doing recons and escorts and easily over fly the 50nm stretch daily. As for the .2 because u posted what the civilians log vs Army. Army guys that follow AR 95-1 cannot log time until we lift of the ground, it normally takes about 5-10 minutes of ground taxi to do HIT checks and various checklist items, civilians start as soon as the meter starts ticking or the plane rolls for taxi. Some companies will just do a 5% conversion for this as well.

I’m not trying to be tricking or beat the system, the things I have mentioned are common and also suggested to me from a current PSA pilot who has done this process himself.

hydrostream
04-26-2018, 09:12 AM
I've kept a personal logbook since my first flight after flight school. It was accurate to the .1 up until I left my last unit. At some point, and I have no idea what happened, I lost about 150 hours worth of flight time in the Army digital logs. I talked to our records guy and he's willing to try and get some of it back, but he's hesitant to decertify and correct all of it since I don't have my original -12 printouts showing they were there. Totally understandable.

So anyways, I've applied to a couple airlines now. On my applications I have used only the flight time from my Army records. My big question is in regards to cross country time. The only place I have tracked that is in my personal log, so if they ask to see it they are going to see the disparity in my total time. Any guidance on how I should handle this? Re-do my personal log to mirror my Army logs and eat the flights that aren't in there? I don't want to look like I'm trying to get away with something.

BeatNavy
04-26-2018, 11:22 AM
I've kept a personal logbook since my first flight after flight school. It was accurate to the .1 up until I left my last unit. At some point, and I have no idea what happened, I lost about 150 hours worth of flight time in the Army digital logs. I talked to our records guy and he's willing to try and get some of it back, but he's hesitant to decertify and correct all of it since I don't have my original -12 printouts showing they were there. Totally understandable.

So anyways, I've applied to a couple airlines now. On my applications I have used only the flight time from my Army records. My big question is in regards to cross country time. The only place I have tracked that is in my personal log, so if they ask to see it they are going to see the disparity in my total time. Any guidance on how I should handle this? Re-do my personal log to mirror my Army logs and eat the flights that aren't in there? I don't want to look like I'm trying to get away with something.

If you have a logbook of all your individual flights, print it out and find the discrepancies and ask FLOPS to fix it. That said, 150 is a lot, and should have been corrected prior to ETS/retiring. I know how hard that is, as I fought the special folks in flight ops annually screwing up my times, on top of the army computers screwing them up. I had a very detailed logbook starting after flight school, showed it all, and got around 35 hours back on my last close out. Just says something along the lines of ď35 hours added for flight hour corrections, certified by 1LT so and so.Ē

If your flight ops wonít change it, Iíd adjust your personal logbook that you provide to airlines to match your 759. Keep that time for you, but for them Iíd make them match. Probably not a huge deal, but could raise some eyebrows with interviewers, especially non-mil guys who donít understand how bad the armyís system is. They could think that you canít keep your records straight, or worse, that you are misrepresenting your flight time. Worst case, 150 hours of helo time likely wonít make a difference for any airline apps...if you meet mins at a regional you are good, and your helo time wonít count for much at the majors.

Try to use just the 759, and if they ask, have your XC time from your logbook listed somewhere that you can claim XXX hours of XC from. Perhaps a simple logbook entry with single line entries for each acft flown in the army (matching your 759), and XC for each acft from your detailed logbook. Avoids your flight by flight logbook and associated discrepancies being an issue, and you can legitimately and accurately list your XC time in those single line entries.

hydrostream
04-26-2018, 12:25 PM
Thanks for the tips. It's very frustrating since I have kept on top of it for every closeout and aligned my logbook every year. I expected to lose flights throughout the year, which I always had to make corrections for close-outs, but always thought once closed out those records were safe. Not the case!

From what it looks like reviewing my flights vs -12 printout, most of these lost flights are when we had to make paper entries that were added into the system later. Cross countries, field exercises, RIP in Afghanistan, etc.

It doesn't impact my minimums for airlines, as even with my lost time I'm over 1,500 hours. It sucks to lose almost a year's worth of flight time but like I said my biggest concern is making sure my records are straight.