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crxpilot
04-13-2018, 06:17 AM
This can't be good....

Allegiant Travel drops ahead of 60 Minutes piece

Allegiant Travel (ALGT -5.1%) drops sharply on reports that 60 Minutes will air a piece on April 15 covering potential safety issues with the carrier.

The company has been the target previously of damaging stories on the impact of cost-cutting moves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/news/3345540-allegiant-travel-drops-ahead-60-minutes-piece


BoilerUP
04-13-2018, 06:31 AM
Is it really a "hit piece" if it discusses actual events?

What about the Allegiant CA that was terminated for doing an air turn-back and evacuating passengers on the runway after smoke was reported in the cabin?

What about the flight crewed by two Allegiant management pilots that blasted off to Fargo despite the airport being NOTAM'd closed at arrival, and had to declare an emergency and land due to fuel?

I've got no ill will toward Allegiant, and perhaps the transition from 80s to Airbii is helping mechanical reliability...but isn't it safe to say there was a pretty big run there of some non-insignificant mechanical and safety issues?

Packrat
04-13-2018, 06:33 AM
You mean like 30-35 engine shutdowns in a 3 year period? Or the elevator failure that caused and uncommanded early rotation? You mean things like that?


disco inferno
04-13-2018, 07:17 AM
You mean like 30-35 engine shutdowns in a 3 year period? Or the elevator failure that caused and uncommanded early rotation? You mean things like that?
Hey gramps. Up from your nap I see.
I'm not sure we've had an engine failure in a while. We sure don't have them any where near the frequency we did. The ratings from overpriced hookers spilling the beans on presidents must be down. If they were really that concerned, they should have done this story 3 years ago.

rickair7777
04-13-2018, 07:48 AM
Hey gramps. Up from your nap I see.
I'm not sure we've had an engine failure in a while. We sure don't have them any where near the frequency we did. The ratings from overpriced hookers spilling the beans on presidents must be down. If they were really that concerned, they should have done this story 3 years ago.

Everybody in the industry knows there's meat to this story. It just took the chickens some time to come home to roost.

Better late than never, helps keep management honest.

disco inferno
04-13-2018, 08:33 AM
Everybody in the industry knows there's meat to this story. It just took the chickens some time to come home to roost.

Better late than never, helps keep management honest.
No, there "was" meat to this story. What good does it do anyone to air this piece after the problems have been fixed? It is only going to hurt the employees of a decent airline.

ecam
04-13-2018, 09:46 AM
I wonder if the unexpected resignation our our union chairman has any relation to this.

Especially after 1224 sends out an email nearly taking credit for the story because of the **** they stirred up during our contract fight. Wasn't CB closely involved in all that?

Lugar
04-13-2018, 10:13 AM
Apparently theyíre interviewing a Captain (RF) who is going to ďspill the beansĒ with a disguised voice and face.

sqwkvfr
04-13-2018, 10:42 AM
I wonder if the unexpected resignation our our union chairman has any relation to this.

Especially after 1224 sends out an email nearly taking credit for the story because of the **** they stirred up during our contract fight. Wasn't CB closely involved in all that?

I didnít read it as trying to take credit. It seems to be an attempt to mitigate anger directed at the local for employing this TAMC tactic. Many were uneasy with this when it was happening and are going to be pretty upset if this torpedo turns around and hits us 18 months after the battle ended.

ecam
04-13-2018, 11:00 AM
I didnít read it as trying to take credit. It seems to be an attempt to mitigate anger directed at the local for employing this TAMC tactic. Many were uneasy with this when it was happening and are going to be pretty upset if this torpedo turns around and hits us 18 months after the battle ended.

I agree. Back in the day, we used to say you never play the safety card except as the last resort. Because once you play it, you can't pick it back up. But than again that was at a defunct airline under a different union.

But yes, I too was uneasy with it then, and now it looks like it's going to bite us in the ass. What has me scratching my head is why 3 years later.

ecam
04-13-2018, 11:16 AM
Apparently they’re interviewing a Captain (RF) who is going to “spill the beans” with a disguised voice and face.

What's the matter, conversation over at flyertalk get too boring for you? From your first posts which claimed you were going to Dubai for an interview, to your begging for a corporate job, to Kalitta, to claiming you were an experienced pilot, and even weighing in on a notorious Alaska pilot, yours has been a troll account the whole time you've been here. 200 posts in 2 months!

Go troll somewhere else. You know nothing about Allegiant or our internal affairs. Keep it up and I will follow you to every post you make and embarrass you by quoting the ridiculous, contradictory things you've said in the past.

Lugar
04-13-2018, 11:21 AM
What's the matter, conversation over at flyertalk get too boring for you? From your first posts which claimed you were going to Dubai for an interview, to your begging for a corporate job, to Kalitta, to claiming you were an experienced pilot, and even weighing in on a notorious Alaska pilot, yours has been a troll account the whole time you've been here. 200 posts in 2 months!

Go troll somewhere else. You know nothing about Allegiant or our internal affairs. Keep it up and I will follow you to every post you make and embarrass you by quoting the ridiculous, contradictory things you've said in the past.

Iím calling BS. Yes, I was fortunate enough to interview at Emirates, and have an interview offer at Kalitta, with one scheduled at American. Iím trying to check out all my options that I am fortunate to have before making a choice. I NEVER begged for a corporate job. Never.

And yes, I do know some about Allegiant too. More than the average person, weíll just say.

ecam
04-13-2018, 11:30 AM
Iím calling BS. Yes, I was fortunate enough to interview at Emirates, and have an interview offer at Kalitta, with one scheduled at American. Iím trying to check out all my options that I am fortunate to have before making a choice. I NEVER begged for a corporate job. Never.

And yes, I do know some about Allegiant too. More than the average person, weíll just say.

You're calling BS? On what? Everything you've ever said is BS. Excuse me. Begging someone to take over your crappy Gulfstream job.

Tell us. Did Maury ever call you back? Like Connie Kalitta allegedly did? :D

Now go play, the adults are talking.

Adlerdriver
04-13-2018, 11:31 AM
Don't forget that he was recently hired at a major, has an interview at AA and EK as well as at least one at an ACMI carrier. Not to mention he's come on here asking for advice on his wife's tattoo fetish.
A great question.

I was recently hired by a major airline without a degree.

Talk about BS - so which exact major were you "recently hired at without a degree"?

Just stop the troll madness you clown. Do you really think you can post so many ridiculous contradictions in multiple threads and not get called on it?

Lugar
04-13-2018, 11:45 AM
Don't forget that he was recently hired at a major, has an interview at AA and EK as well as at least one at an ACMI carrier. Not to mention he's come on here asking for advice on his wife's tattoo fetish.


Talk about BS - so which exact major were you "recently hired at without a degree"?

Just stop the troll madness you clown. Do you really think you can post so many ridiculous contradictions in multiple threads and not get called on it?

Reading ainít your strong point, apparently. Tell me where I said that I got hired by a US major. The major I got hired by was Emirates.

Lugar
04-13-2018, 11:47 AM
You're calling BS? On what? Everything you've ever said is BS. Excuse me. Begging someone to take over your crappy Gulfstream job.

Tell us. Did Maury ever call you back? Like Connie Kalitta allegedly did? :D

Now go play, the adults are talking.

My current job is far from crappy.
Funny, I just got off the phone with Mauryís assistant Marsha, and we scheduled another phone call for next week.

Adlerdriver
04-13-2018, 11:48 AM
Reading ain’t your strong point, apparently. Tell me where I said that I got hired by a US major. The major I got hired by was Emirates. I showed you. That's your direct quote in my post directly above yours that you're responding to. :rolleyes:
Apparently reading ain't your strong point. I never said US major.

Although anyone who has been in the industry for a while knows that "Major Airline" is a US Department of Transportation label used to describe specific airlines operating in the United States. It is not typically used in reference to foreign flag carriers regardless of their size or international presence. So, it would be normal to assume someone who claims they've been hired by a "major" airline is talking about a US major airline.

ecam
04-13-2018, 11:50 AM
My current job is far from crappy.
Funny, I just got off the phone with Maury’s assistant Marsha, and we scheduled another phone call for next week.

Really? That's some funny stuff. I thought you hate domestic flying?

Don't forget this gem:

I have a job offer with Emirates that I was planning to pursue. My attraction to Emirates includes:

* Flying long haul
* Multiple international destinations to choose from
* Flying the A380 or B777

However, I have just been offered an interview with American. If I do decide to interview there, and if offered the job, can I please get an (guess)estimate of how long before:

* I am flying international routes
* I am at least flying 3+ hour legs (much prefer them over short legs), even if it's only in the B737 or A320. It is possible to get longer flight segments fairly quickly?
* Upgrade (as FO) into the B777 or B787 in LAX or DFW.

Time to upgrade to Captain is not as important to me as anything else listed above.

Your time is much appreciated!

Followed by:

Thanks for the input. My concern is having no degree, what shot do I have at really getting the American job? I don’t want to abandon Emirates while I wait for an American offer, only to get a no. Nonetheless, I am certainly going to try the American interview and hope that the timing works out such that I am not already in Dubai by the time I get a potential American offer.

And this after he allegedly had a job offer at Emirates:

Ha, I’m not a troll. Just trying to make some career decisions and there’s something about Kalitta which really piques my interest. Probably worth an interview to explore.

Or the worst troll post ever:

As a new hire, is it possible to do mostly int’l or/and Hawaii flying? I assume that I’d have to get on the A320 to stand a chance. And even with that, is it possible to build a line with mostly Hawaiian and int’l flying? Or am I years away from being able to do that?

I’m debating whether I want to head to AA, but I really don’t enjoy domestic flying, and much prefer int’l and overwater.

If this isn’t attainable at American within a year or two, I’m likely to either accept my CJO at Emirates, or take up an opportunity to interview at Kalitta. I just don’t want to be the guy that joins AA and wishes he was elsewhere. I’d rather save the spot for someone who is doing what they want to do

Now go troll somewhere else dork.

Lugar
04-13-2018, 11:55 AM
Really? That's some funny stuff. I thought you hate domestic flying?

Don't forget this gem:



Followed by:



And this after he allegedly had a job offer at Emirates:



Or the worst troll post ever:



Now go troll somewhere else dork.

PM me for a phone number. Letís hash this out.

ecam
04-13-2018, 12:00 PM
PM me for a phone number. Let’s hash this out.

Feel free to call. I'd love to hear all of your aviation adventures.

(702) 385-1281

dutch rudder
04-13-2018, 12:01 PM
I didnít read it as trying to take credit. It seems to be an attempt to mitigate anger directed at the local for employing this TAMC tactic. Many were uneasy with this when it was happening and are going to be pretty upset if this torpedo turns around and hits us 18 months after the battle ended.

This ^

Many conversations at FL350 were had about this. How does the old saying go... you don't sh*t where you eat or set fire to your own house?

ecam
04-13-2018, 12:03 PM
This ^

Many conversations at FL350 were had about this. How does the old saying go... you don't sh*t where you eat or set fire to your own house?

Exactly. But how many people kept that opinion to themselves? Too many.

SactisbonesBJ
04-13-2018, 02:09 PM
Feel free to call. I'd love to hear all of your aviation adventures.

(702) 385-1281

https://www.google.com/search?q=(702)+385-1281&oq=(702)+385-1281&aqs=chrome..69i57&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

LOL

Lugar
04-13-2018, 02:11 PM
Feel free to call. I'd love to hear all of your aviation adventures.

(702) 385-1281

That isnít your phone number. Clearly demonstrates youíre F.O.S. if you wonít even give your real number, in public or private.

Adlerdriver
04-13-2018, 02:58 PM
Congrats Lugar. You successfully got another thread locked (Kalitta) and yourself banned all at once.

This guy's a genius. JohnBurke managed to narrow down his name using the FAA database. Now he claims to have an AA interview on May 17/18. Gee, if I worked for AA, I think I'd contact someone in HR and make sure they had a look at this guy's posts here.

Someone with his background and location (if any of it is even true) shouldn't be that difficult to ID. Might make for some really interesting interview questions. :D

ecam
04-14-2018, 06:48 AM
That isn’t your phone number. Clearly demonstrates you’re F.O.S. if you won’t even give your real number, in public or private.

What a nut job. Good riddance.

dawgdriver
04-14-2018, 08:31 AM
Glad that's settled. Now that the troll bait has been swallowed whole and the thread completely derailed, can we get back on topic?

rickair7777
04-14-2018, 04:04 PM
Glad that's settled. Now that the troll bait has been swallowed whole and the thread completely derailed, can we get back on topic?

Lugar is banned. Carry on.

Beretta01
04-15-2018, 04:21 PM
+1 vote to decertify the Teamsters after Dan Wellsí comments.

ALLEGIANTAIR
04-15-2018, 04:35 PM
Allegiant has an extremely strong economic program with strong lease option programs its SEC filings have an industry leading statistical relevance. Keeping in mind it is a travel company and in remembering that it has alot more business intentions in mind then just airline business compared to other private equity programs. .

I believe the long term fleet transition and the recruitment of great heavy tech ap mechanics will grow its bottom line mx programs to a new level being that the company grows with it. Proactively it has to provide alot of the forward thinking required for a growing business, if it gives the adequate ability an supports the demands then the outcome becomes an income derivative from the results of better tooling equipment programs, finance standards an flow. The scope of work will have very high standards with the representation of the IBT union adding that knowledge an experience to the company is remarkable and everyone will benefit from that re structure. Replacing 55% of allegiant management a decision made from the top an integrating alot of republic airlines employees also helped grow the operation up to speed with standards.

I could go on an on. Keeping it brief the company is amazing an has good qualitys it will be interesting to see the long term. I watch investor press coverage I follow alot of different aspects of the company way outside an beyond my job description but I like what I see projected.

This can't be good....

Allegiant Travel drops ahead of 60 Minutes piece

Allegiant Travel (ALGT -5.1%) drops sharply on reports that 60 Minutes will air a piece on April 15 covering potential safety issues with the carrier.

The company has been the target previously of damaging stories on the impact of cost-cutting moves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/news/3345540-allegiant-travel-drops-ahead-60-minutes-piece

G4er
04-15-2018, 04:41 PM
I think the G4 union should condemn him in a statement. Total misrepresentation of our MX control and how they interact with pilots....
Maybe an exemption could have happened but definitely not the rule!
Our union leaders should not be throwing gas on the fire with inaccurate statements to the press.
He should resign immediately.

disco inferno
04-15-2018, 05:41 PM
+1 vote to decertify the Teamsters after Dan Wellsí comments.

I second that motion. Who the hell is he to speak on behalf of Allegiant pilots? He flies for a different airline.

Much of that hit piec was outdated, inaccurate or misleading. Our Airbus fleet is newer than United or Deltaís. They gave an inaccurate fleet count of Airbus vs MD80ís. The mention of aborted takeoffs and unscheduled landings needs to be put in context. Neither one is necessarily dangerous. I would argue that a low speed abort can frequently be the safest course of actions n.

This is just another lame attempt by the media to generate ratings by scaring the crap out of the public. I have never felt unsafe flying an Allegiant aircraft and I routinely put my family and friends on us.

duder
04-15-2018, 05:49 PM
That story made the FAA look as bad as Allegiant. Not a good look at all for your company by Joe Blow who's looking for a ticket. Like everything else in life you get what you pay for. I will continue to tell my friends to spend a few extra bucks to fly on the major's. Hope you guys continue to get your act together and turn that place around.

hyde
04-15-2018, 05:56 PM
That story made the FAA look as bad as Allegiant. Not a good look at all for your company by Joe Blow who's looking for a ticket. Like everything else in life you get what you pay for. I will continue to tell my friends to spend a few extra bucks to fly on the major's. Hope you guys continue to get your act together and turn that place around.

I'd encourage my family and friends to fly Allegiant over any regional any day.

terminal
04-15-2018, 05:57 PM
I thought the Teamster did a great job. Read APC from when the Captain got fired...and tell me with a straight face that this is indicative of an airline with a safety culture at the forefront.

The pilots are the reason a plane hasnt ended up in the dirt...and he reaffirmed that. Management needs to stay out of the cockpit.

Varks
04-15-2018, 06:17 PM
What exactly did the teamsters President say that was bad. He came across as believable. Management would not talk to defend themselves. That makes them seam guilty to me. There were a couple quotes from VP of Flight but they were not memorable. They are going to lose this battle if they donít get some professional PR soon. These are public records they tried to block. Does not look good. People are scared to death to fly and now they see this story. They have a good business model but cutting corners on maintenance is bad.

rickair7777
04-15-2018, 06:33 PM
Allegiant has an extremely strong economic program with strong lease option programs its SEC filings have an industry leading statistical relevance. Keeping in mind it is a travel company and in remembering that it has alot more business intentions in mind then just airline business compared to other private equity programs. .

I believe the long term fleet transition and the recruitment of great heavy tech ap mechanics will grow its bottom line mx programs to a new level being that the company grows with it. Proactively it has to provide alot of the forward thinking required for a growing business, if it gives the adequate ability an supports the demands then the outcome becomes an income derivative from the results of better tooling equipment programs, finance standards an flow. The scope of work will have very high standards with the representation of the IBT union adding that knowledge an experience to the company is remarkable and everyone will benefit from that re structure. Replacing 55% of allegiant management a decision made from the top an integrating alot of republic airlines employees also helped grow the operation up to speed with standards.

I could go on an on. Keeping it brief the company is amazing an has good qualitys it will be interesting to see the long term. I watch investor press coverage I follow alot of different aspects of the company way outside an beyond my job description but I like what I see projected.

Nice first post. I hope you're not actually Allegiant management, your grammar and spelling is pretty weak... managers should know how to write.

Varks
04-15-2018, 06:40 PM
12.4 million viewers on average night. That is huge. Many people watch this show. Sell sell sell. Enough people watch for more things to come. I predict CEO is toast.

Gomerglideslope
04-15-2018, 07:05 PM
Nice first post. I hope you're not actually Allegiant management, your grammar and spelling is pretty weak... managers should know how to write.

I was thinking the exact same thing! That response seemed like a canned infomercial from an uneducated droid reading from a script!....yikes!

TCASTESTOK
04-15-2018, 07:38 PM
If Allegiant had a major fatal accident like with ValuJet would they face the same fate as Valujet? Not recover from the fallout of the crash.

n9810f
04-15-2018, 07:41 PM
I completely brain dead decision to rely on a letter from the CP!!! Some valid counterpoints to the report but your leader Maury did no favors hiding.

Chupacabras
04-15-2018, 07:49 PM
I'd encourage my family and friends to fly Allegiant over any regional any day.
Really dude? Because at my regional we were always hearing you guys declaring emergencies and we were not. We flew better, newer planes and we were not landing at airports due to fuel emergencies. Get real!

Fopuddle
04-15-2018, 07:54 PM
I'd encourage my family and friends to fly Allegiant over any regional any day.

And why is that ?

disco inferno
04-15-2018, 08:09 PM
Really dude? Because at my regional we were always hearing you guys declaring emergencies and we were not. We flew better, newer planes and we were not landing at airports due to fuel emergencies. Get real!

Which regional? I’m calling major bs on this one dude. I’ve never had an emergency in 4 years here. I never had any fuel emergencies either. I’m assuming your referencing the Fargo incindent. Weak dude, really weak. Major issues are rare here.

Many of us came from the regionals. They are way worse. Anyone remember the Expressjet plane that sat on the ramp all night in Rochester MN with a plane full of passengers? The crew was too stupid to deplane and Continental ops botched that whole situation. I seem to recall Colgan taking a brand new plane and planting it in someone’s back yard. PSA did their best to try to run off the side of a mountain in Charleston WV. I can keep going but I won’t. Regionals are way more dangerous than Allegiant. Enjoy your 4 day with your FO who has 1000 hours and was at UND 3 months ago.

Air Stang 7
04-15-2018, 08:28 PM
CBS should be cautious. ABC lost a nice chunk on their 'pink slime' non-story some years ago.

N1sync
04-15-2018, 08:51 PM
Really dude? Because at my regional we were always hearing you guys declaring emergencies and we were not. We flew better, newer planes and we were not landing at airports due to fuel emergencies. Get real!


OMG! That sounds amazing! How do I apply and will you give me a reference?

hyde
04-15-2018, 09:09 PM
And why is that ?
Dude we just sent you a thank you but no thank you letter. Don't be salty. Get some pic time and try again in a couple years

WindChk
04-15-2018, 09:20 PM
All this outrage and panic created by this 60 Minutes story (which I haven't and probably will not watch) really does not phase me. I know my company is VERY different from what it was back when this investigation was going on. With that said, I'll just wait fpr the stock to drop (as I imagine it will) to about $120-130 and buy as much as I can. People have always had short term memory and, regardless of what the segment said, will eventually come back due to competitive ticket prices. That's just my 2 cents.

PS: Please keep the mud throwing and personal insults away from this forum. We're grown ups for crying out loud. Let's act like it. Everyone fly safe and have fun.

propdriver86
04-15-2018, 10:21 PM
The only thing I got from watching the 60 Minutes piece, you are (were) operating older aircraft, have one hell of a training department, and have accomplished incredible strides in the past few years. The flight crews have demonstrated they are top notch over and over, so end of discussion, imo!

For what it's worth from a non 121 professional pilot, I have not and will not ever discourage family/friends from purchasing a ticket from Allegiant. This is just a bit of bad PR, and will be completely forgotten by the general public in less than 6 months! IMHO, you will be just fine.

Good luck with the rest of the fleet transition, and hopefully the growth that follows.

Sincerly,

A Paying Customer

cheers1977
04-15-2018, 10:59 PM
I second that motion. Who the hell is he to speak on behalf of Allegiant pilots? He flies for a different airline.

Much of that hit piec was outdated, inaccurate or misleading. Our Airbus fleet is newer than United or Deltaís. They gave an inaccurate fleet count of Airbus vs MD80ís. The mention of aborted takeoffs and unscheduled landings needs to be put in context. Neither one is necessarily dangerous. I would argue that a low speed abort can frequently be the safest course of actions n.

This is just another lame attempt by the media to generate ratings by scaring the crap out of the public. I have never felt unsafe flying an Allegiant aircraft and I routinely put my family and friends on us.



Do you even know what a Union is??? They absolutely represent you! 🙄

cheers1977
04-15-2018, 11:02 PM
Which regional? Iím calling major bs on this one dude. Iíve never had an emergency in 4 years here. I never had any fuel emergencies either. Iím assuming your referencing the Fargo incindent. Weak dude, really weak. Major issues are rare here.

Many of us came from the regionals. They are way worse. Anyone remember the Expressjet plane that sat on the ramp all night in Rochester MN with a plane full of passengers? The crew was too stupid to deplane and Continental ops botched that whole situation. I seem to recall Colgan taking a brand new plane and planting it in someoneís back yard. PSA did their best to try to run off the side of a mountain in Charleston WV. I can keep going but I wonít. Regionals are way more dangerous than Allegiant. Enjoy your 4 day with your FO who has 1000 hours and was at UND 3 months ago.

In my 6 years there, I declared 13!!! At my current airline, the pilots here would rather take a 2 leg jumpseat on a regional than a 1 leg jumpseat on g4!

FreshWater
04-15-2018, 11:19 PM
In my 6 years there, I declared 13!!! At my current airline, the pilots here would rather take a 2 leg jumpseat on a regional than a 1 leg jumpseat on g4!


Which airline do you work for now?

SkiVasquez
04-16-2018, 01:30 AM
I find it concerning that our safety issues ended as soon as we got a contract. We were the ones who helped to initiate these investigations. We brought up our safety concerns with OUR union. Vote to oust the 1224 head? He's doing what we asked and the union is following through with our request. Now all of a sudden we are upset?

Yes, the company has taken great strides to address the maintenance and reliability issues (the company accelerating our fleet transition by a full year being the most apparent example). But we as an airline continue to be performance and profit driven. Example: not a single metric for our profit sharing was based on anything related to safety; all goals were related to company costs and DOT performance.

I think we need to be asking ourselves: did we bring this up because we were genuinely concerned for our safety? Or did we just use this as leverage for negotiations?

disco inferno
04-16-2018, 03:26 AM
Do you even know what a Union is??? They absolutely represent you! ��
It's one thing to represent us in contract negotiations. It is another to pass on unsubstantiated second hand information about the day to day operations of an airline you don't work for. I know people in the IT sector. That doesn't qualify me to give an interview representing "Facebook" and the day to day operations of their company.

So you're a disgruntled former employee an probably rightfully so. I can tell you from a mx perspective that this isn't the same company it was 3 years ago.

Andy
04-16-2018, 03:38 AM
All this outrage and panic created by this 60 Minutes story (which I haven't and probably will not watch) really does not phase me. I know my company is VERY different from what it was back when this investigation was going on. With that said, I'll just wait fpr the stock to drop (as I imagine it will) to about $120-130 and buy as much as I can. People have always had short term memory and, regardless of what the segment said, will eventually come back due to competitive ticket prices. That's just my 2 cents.

PS: Please keep the mud throwing and personal insults away from this forum. We're grown ups for crying out loud. Let's act like it. Everyone fly safe and have fun.

I watched the 60 minutes piece. It reflected poorly on G4 but nothing devastating.

I remember reading posts from fellow pilots at United who were very concerned about the Dr Dao incident. I stated that it would have minimal impact. The Dr Dao incident had minimal impact at United. The planes remained full and people kept buying tickets. The same will happen with G4.

terminal
04-16-2018, 06:40 AM
I find it concerning that our safety issues ended as soon as we got a contract. We were the ones who helped to initiate these investigations. We brought up our safety concerns with OUR union. Vote to oust the 1224 head? He's doing what we asked and the union is following through with our request. Now all of a sudden we are upset?

Yes, the company has taken great strides to address the maintenance and reliability issues (the company accelerating our fleet transition by a full year being the most apparent example). But we as an airline continue to be performance and profit driven. Example: not a single metric for our profit sharing was based on anything related to safety; all goals were related to company costs and DOT performance.

I think we need to be asking ourselves: did we bring this up because we were genuinely concerned for our safety? Or did we just use this as leverage for negotiations?

Sounds like management trolling in an attempt to elicit some replies.
Dumb for even assuming this is correct...dumber for even asking.
Anyone paying attention to the industry knows how Fíed up allegiant was in the summer of 2015...I stopped paying attention after the captain who did the smart thing got fired, while another moron doesnít get fired for not reading his NOTAMS and declaring an emergency during an air show.

Many peers share the sentiment that they wonít JS on allegiant.... nothing against the pilots

hyde
04-16-2018, 06:46 AM
In my 6 years there, I declared 13!!! At my current airline, the pilots here would rather take a 2 leg jumpseat on a regional than a 1 leg jumpseat on g4!

Come on JV why do you continue to troll the G4 forum? Aren’t you happy at WN? I know you waited a long time for a contract here and left a couple month too soon but come on bro...you gotta let it go. You can’t be that unhappy where you’re at. We get WN jumps seaters all the time

David Puddy
04-16-2018, 07:42 AM
Will this accelerate the phase out of the Maddogs?

What proportion of the known incidents took place in the Airbuses? I assume not many.

GogglesPisano
04-16-2018, 07:45 AM
What kind of airline fires a pilot for evacuating? Even if it was a questionable judgement call -- firing?

****?

terminal
04-16-2018, 07:53 AM
What kind of airline fires a pilot for evacuating? Even if it was a questionable judgement call -- firing?

****?

Yep that creates a great culture of safety!

Lvlng4Spd
04-16-2018, 07:58 AM
The only thing I got from watching the 60 Minutes piece, you are (were) operating older aircraft, have one hell of a training department, and have accomplished incredible strides in the past few years. The flight crews have demonstrated they are top notch over and over, so end of discussion, imo!

For what it's worth from a non 121 professional pilot, I have not and will not ever discourage family/friends from purchasing a ticket from Allegiant. This is just a bit of bad PR, and will be completely forgotten by the general public in less than 6 months! IMHO, you will be just fine.

Good luck with the rest of the fleet transition, and hopefully the growth that follows.

Sincerly,

A Paying Customer

I'm with this guy/gal. I have been on Allegiant more than 100 times as a commuter and as a paid customer (with my family). Nothing but the highest respect for all who work there. If I weren't about to flow to AA, my app would have already been there.

grnclvrs
04-16-2018, 08:02 AM
If Allegiant had a major fatal accident like with ValuJet would they face the same fate as Valujet? Not recover from the fallout of the crash.

You mean buy a small south Florida airline, change to their name, build it up and then get bought by Southwest?

cheers1977
04-16-2018, 08:11 AM
Come on JV why do you continue to troll the G4 forum? Arenít you happy at WN? I know you waited a long time for a contract here and left a couple month too soon but come on bro...you gotta let it go. You canít be that unhappy where youíre at. We get WN jumps seaters all the time

Sorry, this isnít JV. I know him and I know heís MUCH happier at WN. Nice try though...

hyde
04-16-2018, 08:26 AM
Sorry, this isnít JV. I know him and I know heís MUCH happier at WN. Nice try though...

My bad. I just couldn't think of any other 757 capts in the training department that left g4 and went to wn. Glad to hear you're not him cause he was a solid dude, good pilot, and excellent instructor.

cheers1977
04-16-2018, 08:36 AM
My bad. I just couldn't think of any other 757 capts in the training department that left g4 and went to wn. Glad to hear you're not him cause he was a solid dude, good pilot, and excellent instructor.

And itís for all of those reasons he was hired at WN and didnít stay at G4....

cheers1977
04-16-2018, 08:49 AM
It's one thing to represent us in contract negotiations. It is another to pass on unsubstantiated second hand information about the day to day operations of an airline you don't work for. I know people in the IT sector. That doesn't qualify me to give an interview representing "Facebook" and the day to day operations of their company.

So you're a disgruntled former employee an probably rightfully so. I can tell you from a mx perspective that this isn't the same company it was 3 years ago.


Not disgruntled at all. I never had any intention of staying at g4. Knowing someone in a particular field is way different than being the president of a union representing a work group.

ecam
04-16-2018, 10:26 AM
What kind of airline fires a pilot for evacuating? Even if it was a questionable judgement call -- firing?

****?

Those that work here and know non public details of the investigation know that it was his attitude in the investigation that got him fired, not his actions on the day of the event.

Since it's a pending court case, I won't say more, because I'm not involved, and don't want to be. But what I just said is pretty common knowledge here.

ecam
04-16-2018, 10:33 AM
I think the 60 minutes hit piece was a bunch of salacious ratings whoring nonsense. 2015 was bad, but things have come a long way since then. This was 3 year old information.

The MD-80 fleet will be retired from scheduled service by the end of this year. The Airbus fleet has had an excellent safety and operational reliability record, on par with other operators of that airplane.

I have been at this company for many years. I am a Captain. I've worked at several airlines and been in this industry for several decades. I've been flying the Airbus here nearly as long as we have had them.
I have never felt pressure not to write up a maintenance issue.
I've never felt pressure not to share my safety concerns with people inside the company.
I've never declared an emergency on an Airbus.
I've never had a major equipment failure on an Airbus.
I feel this airline is as safe as any other US airline, perhaps more so considering the media and FAA spotlights we are under.
I would absolutely encourage my friends and family to fly our airline.

ecam
04-16-2018, 10:51 AM
+1 vote to decertify the Teamsters after Dan Wellsí comments.

That is something that should be seriously considered. I was against the "safety campaign" back when it happened, and now it appears IBT wants to back the bus up over us after we were thrown under it.

At least ALPA has an actual media and legal department, who know how to make a professional statement, not some goombah who goes on TV and makes off the cuff comments about pilots he represents. Most of what he said was complete BS, and edited or not, he shouldn't have made the comments that were shown.

IBT needs to be replaced by a real PILOT union. Our local reps have done a great job, but they are firing guns without bullets. Let's get them some ammo.

ecam
04-16-2018, 11:06 AM
FAA statement on Allegiant and our safety record, dated April 11, 2019

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/April_11_2018_FAA_Letter_to_CBS_60_Minutes_attachm ents.pdf

navigatro
04-16-2018, 11:15 AM
I think the 60 minutes hit piece was a bunch of salacious ratings whoring nonsense. 2015 was bad, but things have come a long way since then. This was 3 year old information.



you are so biased it is laughable.

Allegiant had over 100 serious incidents in the 22 months ending October 2017. That is NOT "3 year old information"

Allegiant had over 3 times the RATE of serious MD-80 incidents compared to Delta.

these are FACTS that are a red flag. I am not bashing the pilots. This is a company problem.

Screwed
04-16-2018, 11:22 AM
That is something that should be seriously considered. I was against the "safety campaign" back when it happened, and now it appears IBT wants to back the bus up over us after we were thrown under it.

At least ALPA has an actual media and legal department, who know how to make a professional statement, not some goombah who goes on TV and makes off the cuff comments about pilots he represents. Most of what he said was complete BS, and edited or not, he shouldn't have made the comments that were shown.

IBT needs to be replaced by a real PILOT union. Our local reps have done a great job, but they are firing guns without bullets. Let's get them some ammo.

Please identify EXACTLY what Dan Wells said that was complete bull****.

Also, why didn't ANY Allegiant Pilots step up and volunteer to be interviewed? Were all of you afraid that management would fire you if you did? Or did none of you feel like defending Allegiant?

ecam
04-16-2018, 11:24 AM
you are so biased it is laughable.

Allegiant had over 100 serious incidents in the 22 months ending October 2017. That is NOT "3 year old information"

Allegiant had over 3 times the RATE of serious MD-80 incidents compared to Delta.

these are FACTS that are a red flag. I am not bashing the pilots. This is a company problem.

More sensationalism. The 80 is almost gone. The Airbus has had a good record. Just stop feeding the trolls.

skyrider1015
04-16-2018, 11:26 AM
Because no pilot knew about this until last week well after the segment was done being taped

ecam
04-16-2018, 11:26 AM
Please identify EXACTLY what Dan Wells said that was complete bull****.

Also, why didn't ANY Allegiant Pilots step up and volunteer to be interviewed? Were all of you afraid that management would fire you if you did? Or did none of you feel like defending Allegiant?

Maybe because anyone with half a brain knows the mainstream media is useless and only cares about twisting people's words to get ratings.

Wells should have made a blanket statement about the professionalism of Allegiant pilots and ended it. Instead he had diarrhea of the mouth and made an ass of himself and us.

skyrider1015
04-16-2018, 11:30 AM
you are so biased it is laughable.

Allegiant had over 100 serious incidents in the 22 months ending October 2017. That is NOT "3 year old information"

Allegiant had over 3 times the RATE of serious MD-80 incidents compared to Delta.

these are FACTS that are a red flag. I am not bashing the pilots. This is a company problem.
22 months ending on Oct 2017 you said it. Most of those incidents where in the early part of that 22 month period. I worked in the union maintenance committee and can tell you that the company has made great progress on this end and now it’s showing on their operation. We worked very hard to help change this culture and it’s unfortunate that this comes out now, when things are actually much better.

Screwed
04-16-2018, 11:32 AM
Maybe because anyone with half a brain knows the mainstream media is useless and only cares about twisting people's words to get ratings.

Wells should have made a blanket statement about the professionalism of Allegiant pilots and ended it. Instead he had diarrhea of the mouth and made an ass of himself and us.

Again.....what exactly did he say that was wrong?


Why did no Allegiant Pilot step up and defend the airline? Not one. Would the company have fired you if you were interviewed?

310skying
04-16-2018, 11:36 AM
you are so biased it is laughable.

Allegiant had over 100 serious incidents in the 22 months ending October 2017. That is NOT "3 year old information"

Allegiant had over 3 times the RATE of serious MD-80 incidents compared to Delta.

these are FACTS that are a red flag. I am not bashing the pilots. This is a company problem.

you want the real statistics and story, the FAA has them right here:

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/April_11_2018_FAA_Letter_to_CBS_60_Minutes_attachm ents.pdf

If you look at the incident rates, they have if-fact dropped of drastically with the transition to an airbus fleet. I would also hazard a guess that if you took Delta and Americans MD-80 fleets and isolated them from the rest of their fleet types you would see similar incident rates compared to Allegiant over the past 3 years... But why compare apples to apples?

ecam
04-16-2018, 11:39 AM
Again.....what exactly did he say that was wrong?


Why did no Allegiant Pilot step up and defend the airline? Not one. Would the company have fired you if you were interviewed?

Everything he said was wrong.

I can only speak for myself and I didn't step forward because:

1. I wasn't asked my opinion
2. If I were asked my opinion, I'd say things were bad 3 or so years ago, but have gotten much better here in the last few years. That I believe we are as safe as any other airline and I do put my family on us. That I've never felt intimidated to take unsafe actions.

But that doesn't make ratings so wouldn't have been shown on camera anyhow.

This was a hit piece. Plain and simple. Anyone who couldn't see it for what is was as an idiot and should't be leading a one float parade much less a pilots union.

e6bpilot
04-16-2018, 01:06 PM
You guys were the ones that uncorked the safety bottle during negotiations and now you want to just put the cork back in and say everything is ok? It doesnít work that way.
This piece was pretty much a recap of the TB Times coverage. Yes, it is meant to get ratings, but it was fairly well done imo (except the pax interviews, come on...). Retiring the MD fleet will do a lot to make this go away, but until your scumbag CEO who has a demonstrated history of cutting safety corners in the name of profits retires, the problem will not go away.
I have a hard time coming to grips with anyone who would defend a company that fires a Captain for a decision to evac an aircraft. That was the line in the sand for me. Maury needs to spend more time with his family and that Captain needs to be made whole, then maybe you guys can start repairing your rep.

TCASTESTOK
04-16-2018, 02:05 PM
FAA statement on Allegiant and our safety record, dated April 11, 2019

https://www.faa.gov/news/media/April_11_2018_FAA_Letter_to_CBS_60_Minutes_attachm ents.pdf


Its sad how they released this statement how they are committed to safety even though their own FSDO investigator recommended enforcement action and the FAA responded by saying nope and issuing a LOC. It says it will do enforcement if an airline shows intentional reckless behavior. It was stated in the investigators report that Allegiant mx did display intentional reckless behaviors when it came to mx.

Peacock
04-16-2018, 02:28 PM
You guys were the ones that uncorked the safety bottle during negotiations and now you want to just put the cork back in and say everything is ok? It doesnít work that way.
This piece was pretty much a recap of the TB Times coverage. Yes, it is meant to get ratings, but it was fairly well done imo (except the pax interviews, come on...). Retiring the MD fleet will do a lot to make this go away, but until your scumbag CEO who has a demonstrated history of cutting safety corners in the name of profits retires, the problem will not go away.
I have a hard time coming to grips with anyone who would defend a company that fires a Captain for a decision to evac an aircraft. That was the line in the sand for me. Maury needs to spend more time with his family and that Captain needs to be made whole, then maybe you guys can start repairing your rep.
Exactly. I lurked here before, and itís pathetic to see the change before and after.

ecam
04-16-2018, 03:07 PM
And now Senator Nelson of Florida is calling for an investigation. The grandstanding continues. In my opinion this is starting to look more and more like a drive by hit job from a particular airline in ATL who we have been stealing a lot of business from lately. Can't beat the competition, just pay off politicians and media lobbyists to smear them.

The Ocho Libre
04-16-2018, 03:10 PM
Exactly. I lurked here before, and it’s pathetic to see the change before and after.

Wait. We hired a ton of people since the dark days of 2015. Things improved rapidly as we began to phase out the MD80s and the FAA was all over this place. I was ramp checked 10 times in a year in 2015. So with that heat, things improved after mid 2015 and we also had a contract so all of that hate was basically quelled.

No one here will accept poor maintenance and make excuses but the fact is many guys here weren't even here until after our darkest days so yeah, they aren't complaining. Those that were here haven't been complaining because it has improved. There is no conspiracy. If it gets sh**ty again I guarantee you'll see it here.

This article would have been much better placed in 2015. Don't know what took so long but all this article is doing now is hurting us when we were finally making this place a great place to work.

Now I've got neighbors driving by the house giving me a concerned look as they waive cautiously. Feel like I was arrested for something and my neighbors saw my mug shot. Need to put darker tint on the car windows, gotta go.

trustbutverify
04-16-2018, 03:48 PM
And now Senator Nelson of Florida is calling for an investigation. The grandstanding continues. In my opinion this is starting to look more and more like a drive by hit job from a particular airline in ATL who we have been stealing a lot of business from lately. Can't beat the competition, just pay off politicians and media lobbyists to smear them.

Are you talking about ExpressJet or Southwest?

sailingfun
04-16-2018, 03:54 PM
A very simple way to understand the maintenance culture of a airline is where write ups occur. If problems seems to occur mostly in maintenance stations than you have a problem. If they are distributed more or less evenly and proportional to a given cities traffic you probably have a good maintenance culture and flight crews feel no pressure on properly documenting issues.

TBucs
04-16-2018, 04:10 PM
And now Senator Nelson of Florida is calling for an investigation. The grandstanding continues. In my opinion this is starting to look more and more like a drive by hit job from a particular airline in ATL who we have been stealing a lot of business from lately. Can't beat the competition, just pay off politicians and media lobbyists to smear them.

Rick Scott is going to take his job anyways. Rick is a G4 fan!

Stitches
04-16-2018, 06:56 PM
One of the themes in this thread that stands out to me (in a negative way) is several posts claiming that switching from MD to Airbus has somehow cured the safety/maintenance issues you guys faced.

Having multiple breakdowns, emergencies, etc. are symptoms of a problem. It’s possible it’s solely an aircraft problem but my hunch is that it’s really a safety culture problem since AA & DAL don’t seem to have anywhere near the number of incidents that Allegiant has had.

For you guys that claim things are better now, how has the safety culture changed in the last year(s)? As a guy with extensive safety experience I’m just not buying that things are fixed by simply replacing older aircraft.

Also, is the person responsible for firing the crew that evacuated with smoke in the cabin still working there? That is a huge red flag for me as well.

Gators
04-16-2018, 07:15 PM
Well the ex-CEO of ValuJet is the current Allegiant CEO. Thatís the change Iíd make if you truly want to change the culture

LCAhotline
04-16-2018, 07:35 PM
I remember reading posts from fellow pilots at United who were very concerned about the Dr Dao incident. I stated that it would have minimal impact. The Dr Dao incident had minimal impact at United. The planes remained full and people kept buying tickets. The same will happen with G4.

This is correct. Just like some people will purchase or rent homes and others will move into trailer parks. When you need a roof over your head and money is tight a trailerhood is perfectly acceptable. When you need to get from Clakrsburg, WV to Vegas AND pay for your trailer, Allegiant is the way to go 🤣

Chief Brody
04-16-2018, 07:41 PM
And now Senator Nelson of Florida is calling for an investigation. The grandstanding continues. In my opinion this is starting to look more and more like a drive by hit job from a particular airline in ATL who we have been stealing a lot of business from lately. Can't beat the competition, just pay off politicians and media lobbyists to smear them.

I agree with this^

The Ocho Libre
04-16-2018, 07:58 PM
One of the themes in this thread that stands out to me (in a negative way) is several posts claiming that switching from MD to Airbus has somehow cured the safety/maintenance issues you guys faced.

Having multiple breakdowns, emergencies, etc. are symptoms of a problem. Itís possible itís solely an aircraft problem but my hunch is that itís really a safety culture problem since AA & DAL donít seem to have anywhere near the number of incidents that Allegiant has had.

For you guys that claim things are better now, how has the safety culture changed in the last year(s)? As a guy with extensive safety experience Iím just not buying that things are fixed by simply replacing older aircraft.

Also, is the person responsible for firing the crew that evacuated with smoke in the cabin still working there? That is a huge red flag for me as well.

Ok I am a part of that equation so I'll chime in here.

You are absolutely correct. The Airbus transition alone can not change a problem with a safety culture issue. Fair point. It is a big part of better performance but there are other reasons.

The company has changed culture from what I have seen from, "why are you writing that up?" to literally, "write up every single chime that Airbus makes, every single little thing!!" That was at least 2 years ago.

It got the point where we couldn't have a millisecond, self clearing, ECAM message without writing it up. They made it a point to write up EVERYTHING to the extent that even the most conservative pilot on earth would shake their head but we did it because it was the write direction to go for the company.

That culture is in writing, sent to all pilots and reminder emails sent numerous times.

The big difference between the MDs and he Airbus is that the Airbus knows every single thing going on and the ACARS makes sure everyone else does too. So the Airbus forces everyone; pilots, mechanics, mx control, and management, to work by the book.

That's what I've seen over the last couple years. Nothing is perfect and there are still issues from time to time but it is night and day from 2015 here.

SkiVasquez
04-16-2018, 10:25 PM
That is something that should be seriously considered. I was against the "safety campaign" back when it happened, and now it appears IBT wants to back the bus up over us after we were thrown under it.


I suppose you also would have been one of the few pilots to have enough foresight not to land in FSD? You should hang out with DENPilot...you guys can talk about all the situations where we as the pilot group were wrong but you two were right.

We helped to initiate the TAMC investigation. Changing unions? This was our doing. We have no one to blame but ourselves.

As for reliability...remember when we purchased the 757s, and all the company talked about was the amazing reliability of this new airplane and how it was going to do wonders for us? Any idea about the reliability and maintenance issues with that program? Doesn't matter which airplane comes on property. We seem to think a new airframe is a cure-all for our problems here. It's not.

And if anyone needs a PR department, it's this company, not the union.

Beretta01
04-17-2018, 10:23 AM
In my 6 years there, I declared 13!!! At my current airline, the pilots here would rather take a 2 leg jumpseat on a regional than a 1 leg jumpseat on g4!

Hey Cheers, you weren't working LGA to DAL to today were you??

FreshWater
04-17-2018, 11:02 AM
Hey Cheers, you weren't working LGA to DAL to today were you??


Lay off cheers today. Heís major bummed it wasnít us that had another inflight catastrophic engine failure.

CAirBear
04-17-2018, 11:37 AM
Lay off cheers today. Heís major bummed it wasnít us that had another inflight catastrophic engine failure.

What would be even funnier is if any CBS people were onboard. Oh the irony.

crxpilot
04-17-2018, 11:50 AM
Iím sure MG is saying ďWhewĒ right about now!

TroutBum
04-17-2018, 11:56 AM
Also, is the person responsible for firing the crew that evacuated with smoke in the cabin still working there? That is a huge red flag for me as well.

With litigation pending, I doubt they fired the person responsible. As long as they have their job, they are normally a friendly witness. Termination usually comes when the case is resolved.

It doesn't always work that way though. The company fires the employee and then regrets that decision when the former employee is deposed.

rickair7777
04-17-2018, 12:03 PM
With litigation pending, I doubt they fired the person responsible. As long as they have their job, they are normally a friendly witness. Termination usually comes when the case is resolved.

It doesn't always work that way though. The company fires the employee and then regrets that decision when the former employee is deposed.

This. They'll have to back him/her to the hilt until the dust settles. Then the ax will have to drop, otherwise the past history would be detrimental in future lawsuits. HR 101.

rickair7777
04-17-2018, 12:04 PM
What would be even funnier is if any CBS people were onboard. Oh the irony.

Nothing funny about a pax getting sucked out of a window in the 30's.

rickair7777
04-17-2018, 12:06 PM
This is number two right in as many years, isnít it? May be a trend there, I donít know. I might be concerned. Hopefully nothing else happens there and not here. That would really bum cheers out.

In their defense, SWA has a very, very large statistical pool to absorb a few engine failures. I wonder how many days it takes for them to complete the same number of segments which allegiant does in a year?

TroutBum
04-17-2018, 12:13 PM
This. They'll have to back him/her to the hilt until the dust settles. Then the ax will have to drop, otherwise the past history would be detrimental in future lawsuits. HR 101.

I have a friend who represented a company in a major construction lawsuit with several millions of $$ at issue. Citing a need to change direction, and without consulting their litigation counsel, the company unceremoniously fired three key witnesses on Christmas Eve. You can't make that up!

cheers1977
04-17-2018, 12:19 PM
Lay off cheers today. Heís major bummed it wasnít us that had another inflight catastrophic engine failure.

Iím glad you can take the loss of life so casually. Says a lot about your character. I never wished bad things for g4. All I was trying to do was point out that it was the g4 pilots that brought to light the lack of safety at Allegiant.

Thanks for showing the SWA pilots what kind of pilot group you have over there at g4. You can bet the captain on swa1380 will get to keep his job and take as much time off as he needs. The same thing canít be said for any of your pilots in this situation. I pray you never have to go through something like this. EAD!!!

FreshWater
04-17-2018, 12:20 PM
I’m glad you can take the loss of life so casually. Says a lot about your character. I never wished bad things for g4. All I was trying to do was point out that it was the g4 pilots that brought to light the lack of safety at Allegiant.

Thanks for showing the SWA pilots what kind of pilot group you have over there at g4. You can bet the captain on swa1380 will get to keep his job and take as much time off as he needs. The same thing can’t be said for any of your pilots in this situation. I pray you never have to go through something like this. EAD!!!

Didn't know there was a tragedy until now. Of course I have respect for human life.

cheers1977
04-17-2018, 12:22 PM
Didn't know there was a tragedy until now.

Iím sure...

CAirBear
04-17-2018, 12:34 PM
Nothing funny about a pax getting sucked out of a window in the 30's.

No sh*t. Clearly you have missed the point.

No one knew anyone was killed until very recently.

FreshWater
04-17-2018, 12:34 PM
I’m sure...

Those recent post(s) were directed at you not swa, without the knowledge of the departed. Notice I mention you directly in those post, not swa.

rickair7777
04-17-2018, 12:40 PM
No sh*t. Clearly you have missed the point.

No one knew anyone was killed until very recently.

Well if you didn't know, then my comment is retracted.

cheers1977
04-17-2018, 12:42 PM
Those recent post(s) were directed at you not swa, without the knowledge of the departed.

You saw something bad happen to an airline that wasnít yours and you couldnít wait to post about it. Now youíre wondering why Iím questioning you character? I sincerely hope you never are put in that situation.

SWA has 4000+ flights a day and they have 2 engines fail seriously.
G4 doesnít even come close to those numbers and 60 minutes does a story on them.

Good luck and ďfly aggressively safeĒ!

FreshWater
04-17-2018, 12:47 PM
You saw something bad happen to an airline that wasn’t yours and you couldn’t wait to post about it. Now you’re wondering why I’m questioning you character? I sincerely hope you never are put in that situation.

SWA has 4000+ flights a day and they have 2 engines fail seriously.
G4 doesn’t even come close to those numbers and 60 minutes does a story on them.

Good luck and “fly aggressively safe”!

I initially saw something bad happen to the narrative you so aggressively try to push on us in our thread. Notice where this conversation is taking place; g4 not swa.

CAirBear
04-17-2018, 12:47 PM
Well if you didn't know, then my comment is retracted.

Yeah. I definitely wasnít aware. Crazy. RIP

hyde
04-17-2018, 01:49 PM
Iím glad you can take the loss of life so casually. Says a lot about your character. I never wished bad things for g4. All I was trying to do was point out that it was the g4 pilots that brought to light the lack of safety at Allegiant.

Thanks for showing the SWA pilots what kind of pilot group you have over there at g4. You can bet the captain on swa1380 will get to keep his job and take as much time off as he needs. The same thing canít be said for any of your pilots in this situation. I pray you never have to go through something like this. EAD!!!

Cheers, unlike you who couldn't wait to come on the g4 forum after the 60 minute piece and take shots at US, I don't think you'll see any g4 pilots going to the swa forum taking shots at you all. You've shown your level of class. I don't believe you when you say you pray we never have to go through this. You have all the animosity in the world for allegiant. However, I promise nobody hear wished this on wn.

cheers1977
04-17-2018, 03:11 PM
Cheers, unlike you who couldn't wait to come on the g4 forum after the 60 minute piece and take shots at US, I don't think you'll see any g4 pilots going to the swa forum taking shots at you all. You've shown your level of class. I don't believe you when you say you pray we never have to go through this. You have all the animosity in the world for allegiant. However, I promise nobody hear wished this on wn.

I sure donít believe you when you say nobody there wished this on SWA. I have no animosity toward g4. You guys were ****ed about the 60 minutes story that YOU all created. Thatís all I was pointing out. You caused that because you let your union run with it during negotiations. Sorry for calling you out. Iím sure now you need a safe space. EAD!!

airlineinvest
04-17-2018, 06:36 PM
My current job is far from crappy.
Funny, I just got off the phone with Mauryís assistant Marsha, and we scheduled another phone call for next week.

That isn't her name. It's Margie.

airlineinvest
04-17-2018, 06:48 PM
Is anyone curious as to why John Goglia was relied upon so heavily in the 60 Minutes segment as an expert and yet they didn't disclose he is a paid expert witness in the wrongful termination lawsuit on behalf of Cpt. Kinzer?

Seems like a bit of a conflict.

JustWatching
04-17-2018, 06:52 PM
I sure donít believe you when you say nobody there wished this on SWA. I have no animosity toward g4. You guys were ****ed about the 60 minutes story that YOU all created. Thatís all I was pointing out. You caused that because you let your union run with it during negotiations. Sorry for calling you out. Iím sure now you need a safe space. EAD!!


No animosity? Really? :rolleyes:

keepinitreal
04-18-2018, 07:43 AM
Is anyone curious as to why John Goglia was relied upon so heavily in the 60 Minutes segment as an expert and yet they didn't disclose he is a paid expert witness in the wrongful termination lawsuit on behalf of Cpt. Kinzer?

Seems like a bit of a conflict.

Probably because Allegiant was afforded every opportunity to be interviewed and supply their own "experts" for the story but refused. So you have nobody to blame but yourselves for this one sided story.

Also about the Union leader, it seems to me he was just relaying the concerns he heard from you the pilots over the past few years. You know, the concerns you voiced loudly in order to leverage more money for your contract. Now that you got your pay day you just want to sweep it all under the rug? lol, give me a break.

Jetpipe30
04-18-2018, 10:49 AM
Probably because Allegiant was afforded every opportunity to be interviewed and supply their own "experts" for the story but refused. So you have nobody to blame but yourselves for this one sided story.



Also about the Union leader, it seems to me he was just relaying the concerns he heard from you the pilots over the past few years. You know, the concerns you voiced loudly in order to leverage more money for your contract. Now that you got your pay day you just want to sweep it all under the rug? lol, give me a break.



People are telling you, but you refuse to listen. Things can change in 2 years (and our contract). We have updated and replaced 70% of our fleet with Airbus in less than 2 years. By years end we are going to be all Airbus by replacing 31 MD80ís in that time period. We also have brand new airplanes. We have completely gutted our maintenance/management and replaced it with good guys. Our reliability has increased exponentially and I wouldnít be surprised if 60 minutes did a follow up in 2 years saying how we would be one of the safest airlines out there. Pretty good considering our size. Yes there is still more to accomplish -Only time will tell.

I think Allegiant pilots are doing everything they can to make it as reliable as possible. We just get frustrated when people throw out facts from close to 2 years ago, because a lot can change in that time frame, especially in the Aviation industry. Regurgitating past practices on a routine basis and shaming us for it does nothing but light a flame of unnecessary drama. It takes time to change, but we are headed in the right direction.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

crxpilot
04-18-2018, 05:07 PM
I think 60 minutes needs to do a hit piece on the major airlines and their DC10ís. Those engines keep falling off Iím sure itís due to their shoddy maintenance.

FreshWater
04-18-2018, 05:31 PM
I think 60 minutes needs to do a hit piece on the major airlines and their DC10ís. Those engines keep falling off Iím sure itís due to their shoddy maintenance.

Thatís about right for their time frame.

Slayer1234
04-19-2018, 12:17 PM
You saw something bad happen to an airline that wasnít yours and you couldnít wait to post about it. Now youíre wondering why Iím questioning you character? I sincerely hope you never are put in that situation.

SWA has 4000+ flights a day and they have 2 engines fail seriously.
G4 doesnít even come close to those numbers and 60 minutes does a story on them.

Good luck and ďfly aggressively safeĒ!

You realize you did the exact same thing right?

Is G4 perfect? No. Have we made great strides in the last few years? Absolutely. By the way you might want to take a look at this article about your new employer.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/04/19/southwest-airlines-mechanics-worried-about-safety.html?ana=e_chi_bn_breakingnews&u=Bh5%2FnmM9CGy13I6F%2FVentw0073a210&t=1524161403&j=81116901

disco inferno
04-19-2018, 12:27 PM
You realize you did the exact same thing right?

Is G4 perfect? No. Have we made great strides in the last few years? Absolutely. By the way you might want to take a look at this article about your new employer.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/04/19/southwest-airlines-mechanics-worried-about-safety.html?ana=e_chi_bn_breakingnews&u=Bh5%2FnmM9CGy13I6F%2FVentw0073a210&t=1524161403&j=81116901
Alright, stop with all the logic and reason!
:D

FreshWater
04-19-2018, 02:10 PM
You realize you did the exact same thing right?

Is G4 perfect? No. Have we made great strides in the last few years? Absolutely. By the way you might want to take a look at this article about your new employer.

https://www.bizjournals.com/chicago/news/2018/04/19/southwest-airlines-mechanics-worried-about-safety.html?ana=e_chi_bn_breakingnews&u=Bh5%2FnmM9CGy13I6F%2FVentw0073a210&t=1524161403&j=81116901


60 Minutes Whaaaaaa?? FAIL. Ainít perception a B!***.

cheers1977
04-19-2018, 02:51 PM
60 Minutes Whaaaaaa?? FAIL. Ainít perception a B!***.

😂 perception? Letís take a look at the Allegiant twitter feed and compare it with the SWA twitter feed.

sailingfun
04-20-2018, 09:07 AM
Probably because Allegiant was afforded every opportunity to be interviewed and supply their own "experts" for the story but refused. So you have nobody to blame but yourselves for this one sided story.

Also about the Union leader, it seems to me he was just relaying the concerns he heard from you the pilots over the past few years. You know, the concerns you voiced loudly in order to leverage more money for your contract. Now that you got your pay day you just want to sweep it all under the rug? lol, give me a break.

That is the part I find hard to understand. Pilots claim it was a hatchet job but 60 minutes merely parroted the comments from the Allegiant pilots union. Once you use the S word in negotiations it can never be taken back.

FreshWater
04-20-2018, 10:32 AM
That is the part I find hard to understand. Pilots claim it was a hatchet job but 60 minutes merely parroted the comments from the Allegiant pilots union. Once you use the S word in negotiations it can never be taken back.

What a difference a week makes. The second guessing part of the 60 minutes fall out is moot now. All the air the story had on Sunday got rapidly sucked out fast. They got wooed into breaking the next ValuJet.

FreshWater
04-20-2018, 07:00 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VopgyAc-F9U

THEKERNALKLINK
04-21-2018, 08:29 PM
This can't be good....

Allegiant Travel drops ahead of 60 Minutes piece

Allegiant Travel (ALGT -5.1%) drops sharply on reports that 60 Minutes will air a piece on April 15 covering potential safety issues with the carrier.

The company has been the target previously of damaging stories on the impact of cost-cutting moves.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/seekingalpha.com/amp/news/3345540-allegiant-travel-drops-ahead-60-minutes-piece


I guess you can thank us over at Southwest for getting you out from under the microscope.


For the record, I'd get on any of your birds at any time and feel very confident and secure.

Are you perfect NO, have their been mistakes made YES, but even the big boys have been down this road. Personally, you've done nothing short of impress me with your turn around efforts. Buying new aircraft, and making major investments.

Cheers!

THEKERNALKLINK
04-21-2018, 08:38 PM
Alright, stop with all the logic and reason!
:D

Logic and reason? How about a bunch of mech's with an ax to grind because management is tired of touring their facilities and when asking them questions as the tech's lean up against their tool boxes, being told "not my job" "ask my union rep" AND IT'S LITERALLY THAT BAD!

They are completely fearless, and essentially worthless! Not all of them, but enough of them to make "having other options" essential. Just wait until Boeing, Ryan Air and southwest finish their YUGE maintenance facilities in Mexico / Central America and Southeast Asia.

Quality, and attitude will go WAY up and expenses WAY down. Making the legacy carriers even more incapable of being able to compete.

terminal
04-21-2018, 11:29 PM
Logic and reason? How about a bunch of mech's with an ax to grind because management is tired of touring their facilities and when asking them questions as the tech's lean up against their tool boxes, being told "not my job" "ask my union rep" AND IT'S LITERALLY THAT BAD!

They are completely fearless, and essentially worthless! Not all of them, but enough of them to make "having other options" essential. Just wait until Boeing, Ryan Air and southwest finish their YUGE maintenance facilities in Mexico / Central America and Southeast Asia.

Quality, and attitude will go WAY up and expenses WAY down. Making the legacy carriers even more incapable of being able to compete.

Wow. Youíre actually advocating for outsourcing?
How about you advocate for a contract for your fellow employees.

FreshWater
04-23-2018, 10:45 AM
Looks like MG has a little pep in his step today.

wjcandee
04-30-2018, 05:10 PM
The scorpions in the media have had to wait three weeks to publish an article like this. Allegiant flight from Sanford diverted over warning sensor - Orlando Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-allegiant-sanford-flint-diverted-20180430-story.html)

Bravo Allegiant maintenance! Watching the 60 Minutes piece, one would have thought that the scorpions would only have to wait a couple of hours to find a flight to write something like the above about, rather than three full weeks. So sad for them...

FreshWater
05-02-2018, 08:48 AM
The scorpions in the media have had to wait three weeks to publish an article like this. Allegiant flight from Sanford diverted over warning sensor - Orlando Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-allegiant-sanford-flint-diverted-20180430-story.html)

Bravo Allegiant maintenance! Watching the 60 Minutes piece, one would have thought that the scorpions would only have to wait a couple of hours to find a flight to write something like the above about, rather than three full weeks. So sad for them...

Indeed 60 minutes and their sham media cohorts are really having trouble keeping this story pressurized.

wjcandee
05-02-2018, 11:16 AM
And now media darling Southwest is in their ignorant crosshairs. A newspaper article today called it "beleaguered" in a report of a precautionary landing for a cracked outer window pane. https://nypost.com/2018/05/02/southwest-airlines-flight-makes-emergency-landing-due-to-broken-window/

TheWeatherman
05-02-2018, 11:56 AM
I can tell you from the public’s perspective the most damaging part of the 60 minute piece was not the maintenance record or the in air emergencies. It was the firing of the pilot for evacuating the aircraft followed by the incident where the pilot wouldn’t evacuate despite smoke in the cabin and told the people to breath through their shirts. Lol

Those are the things my non pilot friends who watched the piece bring up.

sqwkvfr
05-02-2018, 05:34 PM
I can tell you from the public’s perspective the most damaging part of the 60 minute piece was not the maintenance record or the in air emergencies. It was the firing of the pilot for evacuating the aircraft followed by the incident where the pilot wouldn’t evacuate despite smoke in the cabin and told the people to breath through their shirts. Lol

Those are the things my non pilot friends who watched the piece bring up.

That’s been my experience as well. The company really shot themselves in the foot when they took that hostage.

wjcandee
05-02-2018, 07:33 PM
I can tell you from the publicís perspective the most damaging part of the 60 minute piece was not the maintenance record or the in air emergencies. It was the firing of the pilot for evacuating the aircraft followed by the incident where the pilot wouldnít evacuate despite smoke in the cabin and told the people to breath through their shirts. Lol

Those are the things my non pilot friends who watched the piece bring up.

You mean where the pax complained that the oxygen masks didn't deploy with the doors open on the ground? Yeah, we should for sure listen to them...

Slayer1234
05-03-2018, 07:15 AM
I can tell you from the publicís perspective the most damaging part of the 60 minute piece was not the maintenance record or the in air emergencies. It was the firing of the pilot for evacuating the aircraft followed by the incident where the pilot wouldnít evacuate despite smoke in the cabin and told the people to breath through their shirts. Lol

Those are the things my non pilot friends who watched the piece bring up.

Well the publicís perspective is limited because they donít know the whole story. The guy was not fired for evacuating the airplane. Most people at Allegiant know that the evacuation was a **** show and during the investigation things were uncovered that made the people in charge feel like he was a liability to the airline.

As far as the smoke in the cabin, current training is to identify what the source of smoke is. In most cases an emergency evacuation is not required. People get hurt in evacuations. People break bones. If grandma breaks a hip and dies several months later guess what? The airline is getting sued. If Iím not mistaken the incident on 60 minutes was smoking hydraulic fluid. In that case an emergency evacuation is probably not the smartest thing to do. Hydraulic fluid is not likely to catch fire. Inhalation of its fumes for a brief period is not likely to cause any serious or lasting side affects according to current information.

That being said I realize the whole emergency evacuation situation is a catch 22. Itís is possible in the future a crew could delay a needed evacuation trying to identify what the source of smoke is. All of us on here know when airplanes burn they can burn fast. Hopefully none us have to make that decision in our careers because on any given day our decision has a good chance of being wrong.

ecam
05-03-2018, 07:23 AM
Hopefully none us have to make that decision in our careers because on any given day our decision has a good chance of being wrong.

And as we have seen, there is a 100% chance that everyone will second guess you and criticize your heat of the moment decision for years to come.

tyler durden
05-03-2018, 10:33 AM
And as we have seen, there is a 100% chance that everyone will second guess you and criticize your heat of the moment decision for years to come.

^^^this^^^

Agree 100%.

Easy to second guess a guy forced to decide between grandma's broken hip and the potential loss of 150 souls. He did what we were trained to do. He was fired because a certain member of the management inquisition team felt he showed inadequate contrition by stating he would have still evacuated, given the information he had. He "embarrassed the company" during a time pilots were being fired frequently (at one point we'd lost 8 of 24 captains in IWA) and the company was experiencing a rash of similar incidents, often multiple repeats on same aircraft. Perhaps management felt these smoke filled cabins were becoming routine and not worthy of evacuation. Nothing goes perfect in these scenarios and for management to have callously terminated him after setting him up was unconscionable. Would management have retained him had he admitted fault? Who knows, but I wouldn't have taken that chance under those hostile pre-contract conditions either. I supported him then and still do today. I'm glad things have changed since then with better equipment and better protection.

The jury will decide but I'm willing to bet his conservative call, based on the FAs report of smoke, combined with reported engine smoke from the fire department and the 60 minutes report will suffice for a ruling in his favor. I hope he enjoys a fat retirement as a consequence. I would also expect there might be consequences brought upon those in management who hastily made this decision. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the 60 Minutes 'drive-by' would have ever happened without this.

Slayer1234
05-03-2018, 11:35 AM
Valid point I retract the first part of my post. Everything I know about the situation is hearsay and very well could be the spin the company put on it. Most of my remarks come from the frustration of the snarky post on here and sly remarks I get from riding on the jumpseat of other airlines. I know we arenít perfect but weíve come a long way. And a large part of that is the pilot group who has fought for it.

^^^this^^^

Agree 100%.

Easy to second guess a guy forced to decide between grandma's broken hip and the potential loss of 150 souls. He did what we were trained to do. He was fired because a certain member of the management inquisition team felt he showed inadequate contrition by stating he would have still evacuated, given the information he had. He "embarrassed the company" during a time pilots were being fired frequently (at one point we'd lost 8 of 24 captains in IWA) and the company was experiencing a rash of similar incidents, often multiple repeats on same aircraft. Perhaps management felt these smoke filled cabins were becoming routine and not worthy of evacuation. Nothing goes perfect in these scenarios and for management to have callously terminated him after setting him up was unconscionable. Would management have retained him had he admitted fault? Who knows, but I wouldn't have taken that chance under those hostile pre-contract conditions either. I supported him then and still do today. I'm glad things have changed since then with better equipment and better protection.

The jury will decide but I'm willing to bet his conservative call, based on the FAs report of smoke, combined with reported engine smoke from the fire department and the 60 minutes report will suffice for a ruling in his favor. I hope he enjoys a fat retirement as a consequence. I would also expect there might be consequences brought upon those in management who hastily made this decision. I could be mistaken, but I don't believe the 60 Minutes 'drive-by' would have ever happened without this.

labbats
05-03-2018, 11:42 AM
Other airlines have a history too. Delta falling asleep over MSP, Alaska jackscrew, etc etc.

Let the other airlineís sly crews second guess but we all live in glass houses. Unkind and unfair to judge anotherís decision. That is the job of the FAA and NTSB.

Slayer1234
05-03-2018, 12:13 PM
Other airlines have a history too. Delta falling asleep over MSP, Alaska jackscrew, etc etc.

Let the other airlineís sly crews second guess but we all live in glass houses. Unkind and unfair to judge anotherís decision. That is the job of the FAA and NTSB.

You are right. I am wrong. I'm stupid. You're very intelligent. You're very good looking. I'm not very attractive.

labbats
05-03-2018, 05:02 PM
I was saying your Jumpseat discussions from other crews is unkind on their part.

JustWatching
05-03-2018, 08:27 PM
Well the public’s perspective is limited because they don’t know the whole story. The guy was not fired for evacuating the airplane. Most people at Allegiant know that the evacuation was a **** show and during the investigation things were uncovered that made the people in charge feel like he was a liability to the airline.

As far as the smoke in the cabin, current training is to identify what the source of smoke is. In most cases an emergency evacuation is not required. People get hurt in evacuations. People break bones. If grandma breaks a hip and dies several months later guess what? The airline is getting sued. If I’m not mistaken the incident on 60 minutes was smoking hydraulic fluid. In that case an emergency evacuation is probably not the smartest thing to do. Hydraulic fluid is not likely to catch fire. Inhalation of its fumes for a brief period is not likely to cause any serious or lasting side affects according to current information.

That being said I realize the whole emergency evacuation situation is a catch 22. It’s is possible in the future a crew could delay a needed evacuation trying to identify what the source of smoke is. All of us on here know when airplanes burn they can burn fast. Hopefully none us have to make that decision in our careers because on any given day our decision has a good chance of being wrong.

With all due respect, please stop repeating what you were told in recurrent. The truth will come out at trial.

Edit to add that I didn’t read Tyler’s post before writing mine. He is spot on. The truth will come out. Even those spouting the company line are only doing so because that’s what they’ve been led to believe. There is a certain AB captain and a few in HQ that know the truth. The two main players have departed the AO.

TheWeatherman
05-04-2018, 09:37 AM
Well the publicís perspective is limited because they donít know the whole story. The guy was not fired for evacuating the airplane. Most people at Allegiant know that the evacuation was a **** show and during the investigation things were uncovered that made the people in charge feel like he was a liability to the airline.

As far as the smoke in the cabin, current training is to identify what the source of smoke is. In most cases an emergency evacuation is not required. People get hurt in evacuations. People break bones. If grandma breaks a hip and dies several months later guess what? The airline is getting sued. If Iím not mistaken the incident on 60 minutes was smoking hydraulic fluid. In that case an emergency evacuation is probably not the smartest thing to do. Hydraulic fluid is not likely to catch fire. Inhalation of its fumes for a brief period is not likely to cause any serious or lasting side affects according to current information.

That being said I realize the whole emergency evacuation situation is a catch 22. Itís is possible in the future a crew could delay a needed evacuation trying to identify what the source of smoke is. All of us on here know when airplanes burn they can burn fast. Hopefully none us have to make that decision in our careers because on any given day our decision has a good chance of being wrong.

Really? Are you really arguing that it is better to hesitate on an evacuation decision because somebody may twist an ankle? I invite you to look at the historical incidents where people died on the tarmac due to delayed evacuation decisions vs. those who died from hasty evacuation orders and see who comes out ahead in the death department.

BoilerUP
05-04-2018, 09:46 AM
How in the hell can a professional airline pilot believe breathing vaporized skydrol is somehow less risky than an emergency evacuation???

JustWatching
05-04-2018, 10:53 AM
How in the hell can a professional airline pilot believe breathing vaporized skydrol is somehow less risky than an emergency evacuation???

Maybe this guy is unaware that vaorized skydrol can cause serious respiratory distress that could lead to death.

ebl14
05-04-2018, 05:17 PM
Well the publicís perspective is limited because they donít know the whole story. The guy was not fired for evacuating the airplane. Most people at Allegiant know that the evacuation was a **** show and during the investigation things were uncovered that made the people in charge feel like he was a liability to the airline.

As far as the smoke in the cabin, current training is to identify what the source of smoke is. In most cases an emergency evacuation is not required. People get hurt in evacuations. People break bones. If grandma breaks a hip and dies several months later guess what? The airline is getting sued. If Iím not mistaken the incident on 60 minutes was smoking hydraulic fluid. In that case an emergency evacuation is probably not the smartest thing to do. Hydraulic fluid is not likely to catch fire. Inhalation of its fumes for a brief period is not likely to cause any serious or lasting side affects according to current information.

That being said I realize the whole emergency evacuation situation is a catch 22. Itís is possible in the future a crew could delay a needed evacuation trying to identify what the source of smoke is. All of us on here know when airplanes burn they can burn fast. Hopefully none us have to make that decision in our careers because on any given day our decision has a good chance of being wrong.

How exactly would you determine what kind of smoke is filling the cabin during an emergency? Do you know the difference between all of the different classes of fires based only on cockpit intuition? Can you bet the lives of 160 people on that intuition?

You sir are way out of line. I see you have apologized but I still feel the need to comment. A good company would have never considered firing him. Even if they thought, in hindsight, he shouldnít have evacuated.

I hope he gets paid. 💰💰💰

TBucs
05-04-2018, 07:57 PM
You are right. I am wrong. I'm stupid. You're very intelligent. You're very good looking. I'm not very attractive.

I stand by Captain Jason in his decision. Everyone can Monday morning QB him. He made a decision most will never have to make in there aviation career. Right or Wrong. Saftey first............. Period. Is this the instructor that no one likes???? Slayer1234. AF desk jockey?

ecam
05-05-2018, 08:03 AM
I agree that the brainwash sessions in recurrent need to stop. FR, TH, TS, and AK need to stop telling everyone who will listen that Jason was terminated with cause "because of his actions in the investigation". In fact, IMO, everyone needs to stop talking about it and let the case run its course.

If he as Captain felt an evacuation was warranted, it was warranted.

If he stood up to their Monday morning quarterbacking in the investigation, and bullying him to apologize for costing the company money, more power to him.

If he gets enough money to retire comfortably, justice will be served.

And the guys in Standards who are still talking about this need to be removed from management. THEY are the problem with this company and our terrible "training" (checking) culture. It's time to break up that good old boy frat over there at AFG and start acting like an airline our size.

And AQP can't come fast enough. IMO once the 80s are gone, our training department will be the single greatest safety liability at this airline.

captjns
05-05-2018, 09:37 AM
How in the hell can a professional airline pilot believe breathing vaporized skydrol is somehow less risky than an emergency evacuation???

Because many carry that packet of tissues to wipe the brown spots from the tips of their noses.

Slayer1234
05-05-2018, 11:00 AM
How in the hell can a professional airline pilot believe breathing vaporized skydrol is somehow less risky than an emergency evacuation???

Iím pretty familiar with industrial chemicals. I worked In the industry and at one time had CIH next to my name on my resume. Read the MSDS for skydrol. Then if your still interested read the studies that it is based off of. Compared to other chemicals skydrol is benign. That being said due to human variability it canít be completely ruled out that someone couldnít be severely hurt by it. The chances of that after an acute 15 minute exposure is very low and I know of no cases of someone dying from it. Then again I wonít go so far as to say itís impossible. Itís just that the likelihood is a lot less than than that of someone sustaining a severe injury like a compound fracture, broken hip, or even a skull fracture.

Slayer1234
05-05-2018, 11:02 AM
How exactly would you determine what kind of smoke is filling the cabin during an emergency? Do you know the difference between all of the different classes of fires based only on cockpit intuition? Can you bet the lives of 160 people on that intuition?

You sir are way out of line. I see you have apologized but I still feel the need to comment. A good company would have never considered firing him. Even if they thought, in hindsight, he shouldnít have evacuated.

I hope he gets paid. 💰💰💰

Current training and guidance is to try to identify the source of the smoke, determine intensity and whether or not itís increasing or decreasing. Yes there is guidance on how to do this in the GOM and what to look for. Of course I do feel we could use more training in the area. However, If you havenít at least tried to do these things before ordering an evacuation you are violating the GOM. Iím not saying I completely agree with it because if you do have a fire that spreads you are wasting time. Neither scenario is perfect but Iím going to follow the book to CYA.

FreshWater
05-05-2018, 11:49 AM
Current training and guidance is to try to identify the source of the smoke, determine intensity and whether or not it’s increasing or decreasing. Yes there is guidance on how to do this in the GOM and what to look for. Of course I do feel we could use more training in the area. However, If you haven’t at least tried to do these things before ordering an evacuation you are violating the GOM. I’m not saying I completely agree with it because if you do have a fire that spreads you are wasting time. Neither scenario is perfect but I’m going to follow the book to CYA.

Imo. That’s current training and it’s still lacking. Big problem for the company is that’s not the way it was. Captain J did exactly what the company trained him to do. At the end of every sim session was the fire warning and the prescribed and demanded expectation to execute the emergency evac without hesitation. It was a timed event and the evac was the only option. Fail to do it and you failed the session. There was never any other course to consider.

This is why we need to get with industry standard training, not checking via aqp. The old school ways of check to check it and do it quick, is why we are where we are today with the impending trial.

Slayer1234
05-05-2018, 12:25 PM
Imo. Thatís current training and itís still lacking. Big problem for the company is thatís not the way it was. Captain J did exactly what the company trained him to do. At the end of every sim session was the fire warning and the prescribed and demanded expectation to execute the emergency evac without hesitation. It was a timed event and the evac was the only option. Fail to do it and you failed the session. There was never any other course to consider.

This is why we need to get with industry standard training, not checking via aqp. The old school ways of check to check it and do it quick, is why we are where we are today with the impending trial.

Youíre right. Iím referring to current training. Iím not talking about how it was in the past. My intent was not to Monday morning QB captain J. My intent was to stand up for how far we have come as an airline. You guys pointed it out and I retracted that part of it. My original post should have been left at saying we donít have the whole story yet. Iím done talking about captain J. Hopefully it gets sorted out in the lawsuit. If he was solely terminated for ordering the evacuation then I hope he gets paid a lot of money.

ecam
05-06-2018, 06:56 AM
Imo. Thatís current training and itís still lacking. Big problem for the company is thatís not the way it was. Captain J did exactly what the company trained him to do. At the end of every sim session was the fire warning and the prescribed and demanded expectation to execute the emergency evac without hesitation. It was a timed event and the evac was the only option. Fail to do it and you failed the session. There was never any other course to consider.

This is why we need to get with industry standard training, not checking via aqp. The old school ways of check to check it and do it quick, is why we are where we are today with the impending trial.

Exactly. This guy gets it.

The company can't take back years of drilling evacuations into everyone head in jeopardy check rides. The Law of Primacy will always take over in real life.

Our training department (Airbus) is being run by a handful of individuals with very little collective airline experience. Yet they operate at whim, put whatever they want in the syllabus, and change it constantly. Training events at this company (checkrides, not really training) are high stress events where pilots are taught rote level knowledge under threat of losing your job every 6 months. Grading is 100% subjective. Anyone who has been here more than a while knows the line about Allegiant pilots having a 6 month employment contract. No matter how long you have been here, we all face the possibility of being out of work if we pi$s off the wrong high ranking person. The training department is absolutely used as a weapon by management. Now that we have a contract, it's the easiest way for them to fire people.

AQP will fix 99% of this, with its standardized data based syllabus, and objective grading standards. I cannot believe that the FAA hasn't intervened on this as we are now one of the few airlines our size still using the outdated training model. We have addressed the maintenance deficiencies leading to our poor safety record. Now it's time to address the training deficiencies. AQP the sooner the better.

JustWatching
05-06-2018, 11:09 AM
Exactly. This guy gets it.

The company can't take back years of drilling evacuations into everyone head in jeopardy check rides. The Law of Primacy will always take over in real life.

Our training department (Airbus) is being run by a handful of individuals with very little collective airline experience. Yet they operate at whim, put whatever they want in the syllabus, and change it constantly. Training events at this company (checkrides, not really training) are high stress events where pilots are taught rote level knowledge under threat of losing your job every 6 months. Grading is 100% subjective. Anyone who has been here more than a while knows the line about Allegiant pilots having a 6 month employment contract. No matter how long you have been here, we all face the possibility of being out of work if we pi$s off the wrong high ranking person. The training department is absolutely used as a weapon by management. Now that we have a contract, it's the easiest way for them to fire people.

AQP will fix 99% of this, with its standardized data based syllabus, and objective grading standards. I cannot believe that the FAA hasn't intervened on this as we are now one of the few airlines our size still using the outdated training model. We have addressed the maintenance deficiencies leading to our poor safety record. Now it's time to address the training deficiencies. AQP the sooner the better.

I couldnít disagree with you more regarding the training department. While the Captain on that evac did exactly what he was trained to do and most certainly got hosed, he got hosed by Captain Leisser and Captain Baden, most likely at the request of MG. The current leadership team in training and standards does an outstanding job trying to fix the turd sandwich they were given. They arenít perfect, but theyíre putting the time and effort into making things right.

The AB fleet manager and training Captain are a completely different story.

Also, until weíre AQP all PCís are conducted in accordance with Appendix F and are not subjective, which the exception of the CRM box. You either meet the standards set forth in the FOTM or you donít. Also, no one gets fired from a single failed PC. The contract addresses this.

If youíre afraid for your job every time you come in for a sim event, youíre likely a weak pilot and should better prepare.

crxpilot
05-06-2018, 11:39 AM
I couldnít disagree with you more regarding the training department. While the Captain on that evac did exactly what he was trained to do and most certainly got hosed, he got hosed by Captain Leisser and Captain Baden, most likely at the request of MG. The current leadership team in training and standards does an outstanding job trying to fix the turd sandwich they were given. They arenít perfect, but theyíre putting the time and effort into making things right.

The AB fleet manager and training Captain are a completely different story.

Also, until weíre AQP all PCís are conducted in accordance with Appendix F and are not subjective, which the exception of the CRM box. You either meet the standards set forth in the FOTM or you donít. Also, no one gets fired from a single failed PC. The contract addresses this.

If youíre afraid for your job every time you come in for a sim event, youíre likely a weak pilot and should better prepare.

+1 very well said

ecam
05-07-2018, 07:18 AM
I couldnít disagree with you more regarding the training department. While the Captain on that evac did exactly what he was trained to do and most certainly got hosed, he got hosed by Captain Leisser and Captain Baden, most likely at the request of MG. The current leadership team in training and standards does an outstanding job trying to fix the turd sandwich they were given. They arenít perfect, but theyíre putting the time and effort into making things right.

The AB fleet manager and training Captain are a completely different story.

Also, until weíre AQP all PCís are conducted in accordance with Appendix F and are not subjective, which the exception of the CRM box. You either meet the standards set forth in the FOTM or you donít. Also, no one gets fired from a single failed PC. The contract addresses this.

If youíre afraid for your job every time you come in for a sim event, youíre likely a weak pilot and should better prepare.


Nice slam there at the end. I've never failed a PC, and fortunately I don't have many training events left. But you know what i'm talking about. The fear is real out there. Talk to some of the guys who just came of the 80.

JustWatching
05-07-2018, 02:55 PM
Nice slam there at the end. I've never failed a PC, and fortunately I don't have many training events left. But you know what i'm talking about. The fear is real out there. Talk to some of the guys who just came of the 80.

No slam ecam....

I’m in Vegas and talk to all my 80 friends who have gone through the transition recently. Not one person has shared your point of view. The training hasn’t been easy for all, but no one has feared a busted ride or termination.

ecam
05-08-2018, 09:18 AM
No slam ecam....

Iím in Vegas and talk to all my 80 friends who have gone through the transition recently. Not one person has shared your point of view. The training hasnít been easy for all, but no one has feared a busted ride or termination.

Oh okay. well YOU haven't seen or heard it, so I guess it never happened then. Perhaps we have different circles. Or perhaps you've only been here a few years, like 80% of our pilots.

Nevertheless. The training department needs a clean out, and AQP needs to happen asap.

JustWatching
05-08-2018, 11:33 AM
Oh okay. well YOU haven't seen or heard it, so I guess it never happened then. Perhaps we have different circles. Or perhaps you've only been here a few years, like 80% of our pilots.

Nevertheless. The training department needs a clean out, and AQP needs to happen asap.

Over 14 years pal. What needs to happen ASAP is your retirement. You’re a crotchety old man.

tomgoodman
05-08-2018, 01:30 PM
The fear is real out there. Talk to some of the guys who just came of the 80.

Our pilots were never afraid that they would fail the MD-88 rating ride.
They were afraid that they would pass it. :p

j3cub
05-08-2018, 02:57 PM
I have yet to see a pilot fail out who didn't deserve it. Frankly, I've seen more people get through who probably shouldn't!

Never once have I felt anyone in the training department was out to "get someone".

Study and bring your best. There is no reason to fail.



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