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Kimo
04-13-2018, 08:14 PM
Looking for ball park numbers on the embraer phenom 100 and 300 takeoff and landing distances with 2 pilots, 4-6 180lb pax, 50lbs luggage, with 800 lbs fuel. Looking at a flat 2500ft runway with short hops so fuel will always be 800lbs. The true performance numbers seem to be hard to come by.


RI830
04-13-2018, 09:14 PM
Looking for ball park numbers on the embraer phenom 100 and 300 takeoff and landing distances with 2 pilots, 4-6 180lb pax, 50lbs luggage, with 800 lbs fuel. Looking at a flat 2500ft runway with short hops so fuel will always be 800lbs. The true performance numbers seem to be hard to come by.

Not quite sure shooting for here.

Phenom 100 with that payload won’t hold any fuel
Phenom 300 minimum VFR reserve is 800-1000lbs.
So you wouldn’t be departing with 800 lbs

You can land on that 2500ft runway but you won’t get back out.

Look towards a PC-12 or TBM

galaxy flyer
04-14-2018, 07:38 AM
Might note, many 2,500’ runways are less than 98’ or 75’ wide, which is also an issue. If you don’t believe me, look up Vmcg.

GF


Kimo
04-14-2018, 07:59 AM
Ya
was looking more along the lines of "you could take 5 pax but not 6". Or even "3 pax and a monkey". I appreciate the other input but was looking more for hard numbers of what loads can make 2500ft work in a phenom 100 or 300.

RI830
04-14-2018, 09:04 AM
Ya
was looking more along the lines of "you could take 5 pax but not 6". Or even "3 pax and a monkey". I appreciate the other input but was looking more for hard numbers of what loads can make 2500ft work in a phenom 100 or 300.

The answer is none! You can’t make it work.
Phenom 300
16,400lbs Takeoff weight
20 degrees
ATR ON and Anti Ice OFF

Runway required 3080ft

Kimo
04-14-2018, 10:00 AM
What zfw are you using?

RI830
04-14-2018, 12:15 PM
What zfw are you using?

11,400 BOW
+800lbs Pax
+100lbs bags
+ 50lbs misc stock
=12,350lb ZFW
+2500lbs Fuel
=14850lb Takeoff weight. 2754ft required at this weight.
This is considering sea level and 20C

The 300 burns 1600lbs the 1st hour and about 900lbs every hour after that. And a min VFR reserve of 800-1000lbs

You are asking for a serious accident by trying to work a 100 or 300 into a 2500ft strip. Please consider another airport or another airplane.
The math won’t work at all

Many operators consider a 4000ft strip (dry) as good to go.
Anything less than that requires safety evals and multiple eyes looking at it.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 01:20 PM
Looks like if I go to 800lbs fuel it works out? My mission is only 30min on a bad day. Not xcountry or anything even close.

HwkrPlt
04-14-2018, 01:26 PM
Looks like if I go to 800lbs fuel it works out? My mission is only 30min on a bad day. Not xcountry or anything even close.

You'll have 10 min of fuel at best on arrival at your destination. Not safe, nor legal, nor smart.

mike sierra
04-14-2018, 02:05 PM
Even for a Pc-12 that's small

dera
04-14-2018, 02:13 PM
Looks like if I go to 800lbs fuel it works out? My mission is only 30min on a bad day. Not xcountry or anything even close.

Takeoff with 800lbs, even if you only plan to do a lap around the pattern, you'll get a 91.13 faster than you'll realize.

TiredSoul
04-14-2018, 02:26 PM
What’s min takeoff fuel on a 100/300?
As far as unporting of fuel pumps/pickups and the like?
Wouldn’t want to be rolling and getting a low fuel or low fuel pressure annunciation.
Legal or not, 2500’ seems to be pushing the boundaries of stupid.
If they’ve got the money for that kind of airplane they’ve got the money to extend the runway by 1000’.
Don’t forget wet/damp runway conditions.
A handful of Phenoms have gone off the end of a wet runway already.

dera
04-14-2018, 02:28 PM
Hard to understand why that mission needs a jet. That has PC12 written all over it.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 02:44 PM
Hard to understand why that mission needs a jet. That has PC12 written all over it.

Little thing called water and a big thing called out of glide distance. Wouldn't want the FAA metermaids on this forum have something else to tell me I'm doing wrong. It's an overseas project on islands but all of the airports are within 10mins. So to get back to what I originally asked about it looks like the 800lbs pencils out to a 2500ft runway. I'm sorry you guys are so emotional and want to call everyone stupid but it only makes you guys look silly.

dera
04-14-2018, 02:54 PM
Little thing called water and a big thing called out of glide distance. Wouldn't want the FAA metermaids on this forum have something else to tell me I'm doing wrong. It's an overseas project on islands but all of the airports are within 10mins. So to get back to what I originally asked about it looks like the 800lbs pencils out to a 2500ft runway. I'm sorry you guys are so emotional and want to call everyone stupid but it only makes you guys look silly.

800lbs pencils out a legal way to operate there. You literally have to declare fuel emergency the moment you rotate.

Run the numbers for PC12, it glides better than you think. Easy to live with 135.183.

TiredSoul
04-14-2018, 02:56 PM
Little thing called water and a big thing called out of glide distance. Wouldn't want the FAA metermaids on this forum have something else to tell me I'm doing wrong. It's an overseas project on islands but all of the airports are within 10mins. So to get back to what I originally asked about it looks like the 800lbs pencils out to a 2500ft runway. I'm sorry you guys are so emotional and want to call everyone stupid but it only makes you guys look silly.

I’m sure the Honolulu FSDO would be interested in your reasoning.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 03:04 PM
I’m sure the Honolulu FSDO would be interested in your reasoning.

They don't have jurisdiction on the project. Wish you guys read as fast as you typed.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 03:05 PM
800lbs pencils out a legal way to operate there. You literally have to declare fuel emergency the moment you rotate.

Run the numbers for PC12, it glides better than you think. Easy to live with 135.183.

Be careful. Some people may think you're on my side and attack you too.

OldRhinebeck
04-14-2018, 03:15 PM
A Twin Otter would be a much better airplane for the mission you propose.

RI830
04-14-2018, 04:42 PM
Looks like if I go to 800lbs fuel it works out? My mission is only 30min on a bad day. Not xcountry or anything even close.

No, no and no!
Embraer performance numbers don’t support your thoughts.
I’ve been trying to atttach a pic of the perf tables but the site is having problems.

What airport are you trying to operate out of?
A 2500ft strip most likely won’t support the weight of the empty 300

I can’t say it enough.....this is not a smart nor safe idea that you’re pushing.

galaxy flyer
04-14-2018, 05:34 PM
kimo,

What you are ignoring is you MUST land at the destination with 45 minutes of fuel, which apparently is about 800#. So, you have the 800# PLUS start, taxi and take-off AND enroute and approach fuel. IOW, more than 800#.

GF

dera
04-14-2018, 05:45 PM
kimo,

What you are ignoring is you MUST land at the destination with 45 minutes of fuel, which apparently is about 800#. So, you have the 800# PLUS start, taxi and take-off AND enroute and approach fuel. IOW, more than 800#.

GF

He is suggesting a VFR operation... 30 minutes min, which is just at 800lbs. So takeoff with 800lbs, he must declare a fuel emergency at rotation.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 06:19 PM
No, no and no!
Embraer performance numbers don’t support your thoughts.
I’ve been trying to atttach a pic of the perf tables but the site is having problems.

What airport are you trying to operate out of?
A 2500ft strip most likely won’t support the weight of the empty 300

I can’t say it enough.....this is not a smart nor safe idea that you’re pushing.

Wow!
Lots of emotions on here.
Let me go back to my original post. I only asked for numbers to get on and off a 2500ft strip in a phenom 300 OR 100. So far I haven't seen a number or even a chart. Anybody know how to cut and paste?

inverted25
04-14-2018, 06:26 PM
This is a either a troll or retard. If your worried about water and one engine get a twin otter or king air. If your not a troll please post the operator your doing the research for id love to chat with them about this thread.

Kimo
04-14-2018, 06:45 PM
This is a either a troll or retard. If your worried about water and one engine get a twin otter or king air. If your not a troll please post the operator your doing the research for id love to chat with them about this thread.

I tuned you out when I saw you didn't post any hard numbers. Someday someone will post the numbers.

2StgTurbine
04-14-2018, 07:41 PM
Why do you need a jet on a 10 minute flight?

RI830
04-14-2018, 07:54 PM
Wow!
Lots of emotions on here.
Let me go back to my original post. I only asked for numbers to get on and off a 2500ft strip in a phenom 300 OR 100. So far I haven't seen a number or even a chart. Anybody know how to cut and paste?

I have provided numbers twice. I have tried to attach the perf charts but the site has not allowed me to do.

I am not providing emotion. I am referencing the Embraer charts and you can’t do it. I’ll keep trying to attach them

Since your based in Hawaii, we will assume 20C for all ops

You will need 2564 ft of runway to depart at 13,400 lbs.
Add any water and you'll need 4277ft of runway at the same weight.
The avg Phenom weighs 11,500 lbs empty

Kimo
04-14-2018, 08:24 PM
This may blow everyone's mind but someone just sent me actual numbers on the cessna mustang and it CAN do a 2500ft runway!!!! So go take out your anger on any cessna mustang pilot you meet. How dare they make a small jet that lands at small airports and how dare anyone buy one of those jets!!! Still waiting on the edge of my seat for those embraer 100 & 300 numbers to show up.

dera
04-14-2018, 08:43 PM
This may blow everyone's mind but someone just sent me actual numbers on the cessna mustang and it CAN do a 2500ft runway!!!! So go take out your anger on any cessna mustang pilot you meet. How dare they make a small jet that lands at small airports and how dare anyone buy one of those jets!!! Still waiting on the edge of my seat for those embraer 100 & 300 numbers to show up.

Mustang with 2 pilots and 6 pax? You might want to check your original post.

2StgTurbine
04-14-2018, 09:14 PM
This may blow everyone's mind but someone just sent me actual numbers on the cessna mustang and it CAN do a 2500ft runway!!!! So go take out your anger on any cessna mustang pilot you meet.

You asked for Phenom numbers, not Mustang numbers. You got Phenom numbers and they don't work.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:17 AM
Mustang with 2 pilots and 6 pax? You might want to check your original post.

As should you

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:18 AM
You asked for Phenom numbers, not Mustang numbers. You got Phenom numbers and they don't work.

Ahh changing your tune now. So jets are ok at 2500ft after all?

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:32 AM
[QUOTE=RI830;2572458]I have provided numbers twice. I have tried to attach the perf charts but the site has not allowed me to do.

Can't cut and paste? Besides you gave me numbers to show it doesn't work and keep dancing around the numbers that DO work. You honestly saying the numbers don't show a 100 able to depart at 2500ft at any weight?

2StgTurbine
04-15-2018, 04:08 AM
Your personality indicates a single pilot operation would suit you best. Plus, you would gain an extra 180 of fuel.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 05:37 AM
Your personality indicates a single pilot operation would suit you best. Plus, you would gain an extra 180 of fuel.

I love people. Just don't love it when people resort to name calling and try to figure out where I live. I'm not aware of any "professional" crew that does that.

BoilerUP
04-15-2018, 05:42 AM
OP didn't ask for it, but here are the AFM tables from a CJ2+.

The airplane I flew, an early 2009 model, had a no-pilot empty weight of 7766 and a two-pilot BOW (in our operation) of 8125.

https://i.imgur.com/w14wBQb.png

https://i.imgur.com/bhEMR4M.png

VFR fuel reserve (at 15,000ft) is listed as 307lb for 30min and 468lb for 45min; FUEL LOW LEVEL lights illuminate at 220lb per tank and I've seen them flash on takeoff with 600lb+ per tank. Our operational reserve fuel was 600lb.

In my professional opinion, having a couple thousand hours in 500/525-series Citations, the mission as described does NOT fit this airframe. You might get completely unfactored AFM distances and weights to work on paper, but I would never operate into 2500'.

Mountain Man
04-15-2018, 08:32 AM
Obviously the OP has never experienced the brakes on a 100.

RI830
04-15-2018, 10:31 AM
Can't cut and paste? Besides you gave me numbers to show it doesn't work and keep dancing around the numbers that DO work. You honestly saying the numbers don't show a 100 able to depart at 2500ft at any weight?

You apparently don't read well. I gave you Phenom 300 numbers more than once. I have a electronic POH for the 300...NOT the 100.

In one breathe you act like you need the info for the performance and in the next breathe you act like you know that it will do it.

You are either a troll or dumber than a box of rocks. You have had multiple people with probably 100K plus of hours and experience tell you that this is a really bad idea and that the perf tables don't support it.

Give it up or we will watch for you in the papers and NTSB reports.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 11:20 AM
You apparently don't read well. I gave you Phenom 300 numbers more than once. I have a electronic POH for the 300...NOT the 100.

In one breathe you act like you need the info for the performance and in the next breathe you act like you know that it will do it.

You are either a troll or dumber than a box of rocks. You have had multiple people with probably 100K plus of hours and experience tell you that this is a really bad idea and that the perf tables don't support it.

Give it up or we will watch for you in the papers and NTSB reports.

So you're saying a 100 WILL work?

Kimo
04-15-2018, 11:22 AM
Obviously the OP has never experienced the brakes on a 100.

If I had experienced the brakes on the 100 I'd have all the numbers and not be asking you guys for the numbers.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 11:25 AM
OP didn't ask for it, but here are the AFM tables from a CJ2+.

The airplane I flew, an early 2009 model, had a no-pilot empty weight of 7766 and a two-pilot BOW (in our operation) of 8125.

https://i.imgur.com/w14wBQb.png

https://i.imgur.com/bhEMR4M.png

VFR fuel reserve (at 15,000ft) is listed as 307lb for 30min and 468lb for 45min; FUEL LOW LEVEL lights illuminate at 220lb per tank and I've seen them flash on takeoff with 600lb+ per tank. Our operational reserve fuel was 600lb.

In my professional opinion, having a couple thousand hours in 500/525-series Citations, the mission as described does NOT fit this airframe. You might get completely unfactored AFM distances and weights to work on paper, but I would never operate into 2500'.

Very constructive post and I thank you for the numbers. That's all I was looking for all along.

galaxy flyer
04-15-2018, 12:04 PM
Well, your first post didn’t mention the CJ at all, now it’s just the numbers you were looking for. Got it.

As we see so often, a poster comes here asking for operational information from experts (read: some one ignorant of the answe to THEIR question) and, shortly, the tell the experts THEY asked, that they’re idiots.

In my 45 years as a professional pilot, when I went to an “expert”; I took the answer they gave and stopped arguing. It has served me well.

Kimo,

I’ll ask again, how WIDE is this runway?
GF

RI830
04-15-2018, 12:30 PM
GF,

I bet he is based here......

AirNav: PHPA - Port Allen Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/PHPA)

2450ft X 60ft asphalt runway that is limited to 12,500 lb aircraft.

Phenom100driver
04-15-2018, 01:27 PM
OK Kimo,

2864’ is the dry runway takeoff distance required with your parameters. This is accelerate to V1 then come to a stop. Remember this is a jet.

You are playing with fire if you conduct operations into and out of a 2500 foot runway with 800 pounds of fuel. The FAA will hang you.

If the runway is 60’ wide, good luck turning around on that with a Phenom 100.

So you gonna call me some names too?

galaxy flyer
04-15-2018, 02:23 PM
RI830,

Well, then it’s not really 2,500’, but the TODA/TORA is 2,361’ on 09; which being in trades is the prevailing runway in use. Not sure of the gear width on a Phenom, but the certification criteria for pilot deviation at Vmcg is 30’; in the other words, pretty much guaranteed sideline excursion OEI. At those weights, it would probably be a V1min schedule, that is, Vmcg limited. I suspect a fuel emergency is more likely than runway excursion due to engine failure near V1. Unless taxing on the grass occurs first.

GF

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:30 PM
Well, your first post didn’t mention the CJ at all, now it’s just the numbers you were looking for. Got it.

As we see so often, a poster comes here asking for operational information from experts (read: some one ignorant of the answe to THEIR question) and, shortly, the tell the experts THEY asked, that they’re idiots.

In my 45 years as a professional pilot, when I went to an “expert”; I took the answer they gave and stopped arguing. It has served me well.

Kimo,

I’ll ask again, how WIDE is this runway?
GF

I wasn't looking for the numbers on the cessna but wanted to thank him for trying to be constructive. Are you against that too?

If we don't have the length why are you worried about the width?

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:33 PM
OK Kimo,

2864’ is the dry runway takeoff distance required with your parameters. This is accelerate to V1 then come to a stop. Remember this is a jet.

You are playing with fire if you conduct operations into and out of a 2500 foot runway with 800 pounds of fuel. The FAA will hang you.

If the runway is 60’ wide, good luck turning around on that with a Phenom 100.

So you gonna call me some names too?

Who did I call what name? A lot of people insulted me and tried to stalk my whereabouts.

Thanks for your constructive comments regarding takeoff lengths. Was hard to come by but I appreciate it.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 03:34 PM
GF,

I bet he is based here......

AirNav: PHPA - Port Allen Airport (http://www.airnav.com/airport/PHPA)

2450ft X 60ft asphalt runway that is limited to 12,500 lb aircraft.

Never been there but looks like a fun place to go! Curious to know why you're trying to track my whereabouts. Are you planning on doing harm to me?

galaxy flyer
04-15-2018, 03:48 PM
If you don’t have the length, the width doesn’t matter. But, width, as explained can be limiting and short runways are often narrow.

GF

Kimo
04-15-2018, 04:02 PM
If you don’t have the length, the width doesn’t matter. But, width, as explained can be limiting and short runways are often narrow.

GF

It was quite a journey just to get the length numbers. I don't think I have it in me to ask for the width numbers.

RI830
04-15-2018, 04:06 PM
If we don't have the length why are you worried about the width?

This comment proves the depth of your ignorance.

Phenom100driver
04-15-2018, 04:38 PM
You are welcome, but PLEASE think hard about doing this.

Good luck

Kimo
04-15-2018, 04:46 PM
This comment proves the depth of your ignorance.


The runway is 2500ft wide and 87ft long. Do we have the numbers now?

Why don't you move on already.

PowderFinger
04-15-2018, 05:06 PM
Little thing called water and a big thing called out of glide distance. Wouldn't want the FAA metermaids on this forum have something else to tell me I'm doing wrong. It's an overseas project on islands but all of the airports are within 10mins. So to get back to what I originally asked about it looks like the 800lbs pencils out to a 2500ft runway. I'm sorry you guys are so emotional and want to call everyone stupid but it only makes you guys look silly.

Emotional? Silly?

Proof that you can't fix stupid. If you weren't going to like the answer, why ask the question? I think your mind was made up from the start.

PowderFinger
04-15-2018, 05:11 PM
Never been there but looks like a fun place to go! Curious to know why you're trying to track my whereabouts. Are you planning on doing harm to me?

No one stalking ... Just want to know where to look for the wreckage.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 05:26 PM
Emotional? Silly?

Proof that you can't fix stupid. If you weren't going to like the answer, why ask the question? I think your mind was made up from the start.

That's some professionalism right there^^^

galaxy flyer
04-15-2018, 05:26 PM
Kimo,

How about giving us an ICAO location identifier?

GF

SrfNFly227
04-15-2018, 05:31 PM
The Mustang and the Phenom are worlds apart when it comes to runway performance. I'm typed in both so please take my word on that. The biggest difference is that the Mustang has ground spoilers, which the early Phenom 100s did not.

I've operated a Mustang out of a 2700 ft runway. In my opinion, it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but it was legal. The plane could take off out of that runway with over 2 hours of flying fuel (plus reserve).

I wouldn't have dreamt of taking the Phenom in to a sub 4000 ft runway. The brakes are horrible and the early models had no ability to dump the lift. Anything other than a dry runway and my min runway went up exponentially.

Your original question asks about 4-6 passengers though, so most people in this thread would assume that you mean the Phenom 300.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 05:34 PM
Kimo,

How about giving us an ICAO location identifier?

GF

dont worry about it homie. I just bought a 300 and test flew it off that 2500ft strip and it worked like a charm. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

Kimo
04-15-2018, 05:38 PM
The Mustang and the Phenom are worlds apart when it comes to runway performance. I'm typed in both so please take my word on that. The biggest difference is that the Mustang has ground spoilers, which the early Phenom 100s did not.

I've operated a Mustang out of a 2700 ft runway. In my opinion, it wasn't the smartest thing to do, but it was legal. The plane could take off out of that runway with over 2 hours of flying fuel (plus reserve).

I wouldn't have dreamt of taking the Phenom in to a sub 4000 ft runway. The brakes are horrible and the early models had no ability to dump the lift. Anything other than a dry runway and my min runway went up exponentially.

Your original question asks about 4-6 passengers though, so most people in this thread would assume that you mean the Phenom 300.

Thank you for the info. I sincerely appreciate your contribution to the forum not just for my benefit but others that may consider these aircraft.

dera
04-15-2018, 05:43 PM
dont worry about it homie. I just bought a 300 and test flew it off that 2500ft strip and it worked like a charm. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

Okay Lugar, see ya later.

2StgTurbine
04-15-2018, 05:52 PM
Okay Lugar, see ya later.

Yep. The same day Lugar gets banned, this clown shows up.

Kimo
04-15-2018, 06:04 PM
Yep. The same day Lugar gets banned, this clown shows up.

Gonna have to fill me in. Did you guys call Lugar a bunch of names and then get him banned when he stuck up for himself?

Kimo
04-15-2018, 06:12 PM
I appreciate all the hard data everyone provided. These forums exist for several years to serve as a means for others to gather information in the future. These numbers are hard to come by and we're paving the way for others not just myself.

For the others that didn't contribute.....best of luck to you in your flying career or whatever line of business you're in.

galaxy flyer
04-15-2018, 07:03 PM
Sure ya did! In the last 24 hours, right. You can BS the fans, but you can’t BS the players.


GF

RI830
04-15-2018, 07:05 PM
dont worry about it homie. I just bought a 300 and test flew it off that 2500ft strip and it worked like a charm. MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!!

You bought and test flew a 300 in less than 36 hrs?
For people here who have been involved in aircraft purchases and deliveries know full well that you are full of more nonsense than a C-5 could dream of carrying.

If you “bought” this aircraft.....or even we’re considering it, you would have had access to this information.

Just because you got off the runway means NOTHING. The day you get to V1-1kt and have to abort.....you are on your own and the FAA will have your certificate. You have warned and this thread will be evidence for the FAA’s case on your certificate revocation.

twebb
04-15-2018, 07:48 PM
Phenom 100
Takeoff weight with 4 pax and 800lbs of fuel.
8775lbs
TO distance 2502'

300' Elevation
16 knot headwind needed
Temp 15 degrees
Altimiter 29.92

Landing distance - 2446'
Minus 200lbs
0 wind

Slick spots on the runway to include runway markings, tire marks, or bumps will increase landing distance by 500' or more.

If you are above ref by a few knots, you won't have enough runway for landing

When the hydraulics fail, and they will, youll have to pull the emergency brake and you'll go off the runway.

You'd have to be perfect every single time, full brake application immediately, and never hit any slick spots.

2StgTurbine
04-15-2018, 07:50 PM
Phenom 100
Takeoff weight with 4 pax and 800lbs of fuel.
8775lbs
TO distance 2502'

300' Elevation
16 knot headwind needed
Temp 15 degrees
Altimiter 29.92

So Lugar just has to start the takeoff roll with the mains on the grass. I guess it will work and we were all wrong :rolleyes:

Kimo
04-16-2018, 04:12 AM
You bought and test flew a 300 in less than 36 hrs?
For people here who have been involved in aircraft purchases and deliveries know full well that you are full of more nonsense than a C-5 could dream of carrying.

If you “bought” this aircraft.....or even we’re considering it, you would have had access to this information.

Just because you got off the runway means NOTHING. The day you get to V1-1kt and have to abort.....you are on your own and the FAA will have your certificate. You have warned and this thread will be evidence for the FAA’s case on your certificate revocation.

been difficult to tell who the pros are on here but don't you worry about it homie. I don't need you calling my company and interfering with my duties as a flight crew member. If I have the numbers and data for whatever my mission may be then your interference is not appropriate.

Kimo
04-16-2018, 05:04 AM
So Lugar just has to start the takeoff roll with the mains on the grass. I guess itwill work and we were all wron:rolleyes:

I'm not proposing that. Not sure why you'd compare that to me.

COKS
04-16-2018, 07:08 AM
I don't need you calling my company and interfering with my duties as a flight crew member. If I have the numbers and data for whatever my mission may be then your interference is not appropriate.

Aren't your duties as a flight crew member to make sure the aircraft is operated in a safe, responsible, legal manner? As basic as 91.103b "For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use". I'm not an expert on phenoms but when 10+ people are all saying the same thing, its usually wise to hear them out...

HwkrPlt
04-16-2018, 07:20 AM
I think we've been very successfully trolled.

Kimo
04-16-2018, 11:11 AM
Aren't your duties as a flight crew member to make sure the aircraft is operated in a safe, responsible, legal manner? As basic as 91.103b "For any flight, runway lengths at airports of intended use". I'm not an expert on phenoms but when 10+ people are all saying the same thing, its usually wise to hear them out...

That's what's inferred by saying "I have the numbers and data"
Example. I have the numbers and data to support an 8000ft takeoff on the 10,000ft runway you guys like to use. I'm legal but you're still not legal by calling my company and interfering with my duties as a flight crewmember.

COKS
04-16-2018, 11:27 AM
That's what's inferred by saying "I have the numbers and data"
Example. I have the numbers and data to support an 8000ft takeoff on the 10,000ft runway you guys like to use. I'm legal but you're still not legal by calling my company and interfering with my duties as a flight crewmember.

There is actually nothing illegal about calling a company to report gross negligence, which is none of us intend to do in your case, and running off a runway on takeoff or having below legal fuel will interfere with your duties as a crew member far more than any of us on this thread will.

galaxy flyer
04-16-2018, 01:00 PM
If you have the “numbers”; why so defensive? You’d easily withstand an audit, correct? You’re BS’ing somewhere—either the numbers aren’t there, the runway isn’t 2,500’ or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

I’ve been around enough to see operators do all sorts of marginally legal things. One told me we use this 60’ wide runway all the time. To which I asked, what’s your explanation for a sideline excursion and went thru FAR 25 and the FAA AC on runway design. Another wanted to operate off a sealed coral strip. I asked about the PCN. Blank stare. I asked the maintenance chief how many tires they used. It was about twice the expected rate and some nasty cuts. How will explain a blown tire at V1? “Won’t happen”. Oh.

GF

Vital Signs
04-16-2018, 03:30 PM
The requirement to get from Legal to Safe is Common Sense.

Kimo
04-16-2018, 04:15 PM
Nah I'm almost certain I was trolled on this one.

Thanks again to those that contributed!

PowderFinger
04-17-2018, 08:29 AM
Nah I'm almost certain I was trolled on this one.

Thanks again to those that contributed!

I think he proved again that you can't fix stupid.

Falcondrivr
04-17-2018, 11:24 AM
Trolled. This is a 13 year old with a really cool flight sim setup in his room. I believe he works here: http://www.californiaair.net/
I met one of these guys once hanging out in the lobby at Atlantic San Jose. I couldn’t believe how real it was to him.

JulesWinfield
04-17-2018, 06:19 PM
This is a either a troll or retard. If your worried about water and one engine get a twin otter or king air. If your not a troll please post the operator your doing the research for id love to chat with them about this thread.

Not even sure a King Air 90 could make this work.

Xems
04-18-2018, 05:07 AM
At the risk of keeping this crazy thread going (why oh why!), even the new Pilatus PC-24 that advertises amazingly short requirements uses a balanced field length of 2,810 ft. I've never even seen it other than mockup, but the numbers are really quite interesting.

That being said, planning on operations out of a 2,500 foot strip with any regularity in something other than a Twin Otter is just plain nuts!

twebb
04-18-2018, 12:13 PM
Some of these new jets are amazing at what they can do. But short runways and reliable says Pc12.

Troll or not, pilots make these decisions everyday.....wet or contaminated runway? Was that only 1/8" dry compacted snow or slush? At the end of the day, it comes down to gut feeling. Was I on and on? Speed Vref per POH? Do I know this awos is always under or over-reporting conditions?

The pilots that know their limitations, the airplanes limitations, and the fields limitations are the ones that can post on here another day.

TroutBum
04-18-2018, 02:03 PM
I think we've been very successfully trolled.

I think you are correct. This is right up there with the infamous "Mall Ninja" thread on GlockTalk. https://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Stickshaker
05-30-2018, 10:04 PM
I just read this whole thread and found it pretty amusing. Hopefully the OP got what he was looking for.

For any "future" users who are considering the performance of a Phenom, I can offer my .02 and beat the hell out of this dead horse:

When I run the numbers on the Phenom 100 with 4 x 180 pax, 50 pounds baggage and 2-pilot crew departing with 800 pounds and landing with 600 pounds (minimum in the 100), sea-level, 20C, 29.92:
DRY RUNWAY:
TAKEOFF FLAPS 1, MIN REQUIRED RUNWAY LENGTH = 2,861 FT, V1=94, VR=99, V2=104, VFS=121 CLIMB LIMITED WEIGHT: 10,582 LBS, AIRCRAFT WEIGHT: 8,966LBS.

LANDING FLAPS FULL, VREF=95, VAC=101, VFS=119, MAX WEIGHT: 10,507 LBS, LANDING WEIGHT = 8,766 LBS, UNFACTORED LANDING DISTANCE = 2,536 FT.

WET RUNWAY:
MIN REQUIRED RUNWAY LENGTH (TAKEOFF) = 5,068 FT
FACTORED LANDING DISTANCE = 4,983 FT

Will the airplane do it? Probably. When it's bone dry. But I've only got 1,100 hours in the Phenom (single-pilot) and I wouldn't. When you start discounting the engineering margins in the book, you're already cooked.

Shoeless
07-13-2018, 09:02 PM
2 words: Twin Otter

HwkrPlt
07-17-2018, 09:49 AM
I think you are correct. This is right up there with the infamous "Mall Ninja" thread on GlockTalk. https://lonelymachines.org/mall-ninjas/

Glocktalk....boy there is a blast from the past. I wonder if my login still works.