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P Owed Captain
04-14-2018, 08:29 AM
Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece? I thought about how May had 5 workweeks in it where I could possibly get a whole week off if I bid correctly to get my 78 hours into 4 weeks of bidding. I thought it would be great to get 15 or 16 days off in May rather than my usual 11 or 12. But no, if I bid four weeks of trips that are about 19.3 or 19.4 hours apiece, I will be below 78, and they will be sure to throw another trip in there. It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends! You'll have your first and last day, the commute day, chock full of legs, and the two days in the middle will be short days. It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?


pilot0987
04-14-2018, 08:55 AM
Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece? I thought about how May had 5 workweeks in it where I could possibly get a whole week off if I bid correctly to get my 78 hours into 4 weeks of bidding. I thought it would be great to get 15 or 16 days off in May rather than my usual 11 or 12. But no, if I bid four weeks of trips that are about 19.3 or 19.4 hours apiece, I will be below 78, and they will be sure to throw another trip in there. It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends! You'll have your first and last day, the commute day, chock full of legs, and the two days in the middle will be short days. It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?

Sounds like my former regional. Just the name of the game for bottom tier airlines.

MagPBS
04-14-2018, 09:09 AM
Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece? I thought about how May had 5 workweeks in it where I could possibly get a whole week off if I bid correctly to get my 78 hours into 4 weeks of bidding. I thought it would be great to get 15 or 16 days off in May rather than my usual 11 or 12. But no, if I bid four weeks of trips that are about 19.3 or 19.4 hours apiece, I will be below 78, and they will be sure to throw another trip in there. It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends! You'll have your first and last day, the commute day, chock full of legs, and the two days in the middle will be short days. It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?


I know you won't believe me, but you are so wrong on every level of this statement that you think we are doing this on purpose to just make your life difficult.


P Owed Captain
04-14-2018, 09:22 AM
Do you have anything to back that up? What would it hurt them to change the way they arrange the trips? I know Mesa is given x amount of flying to divvy up, but they could still make the majority of four-days have at least 19.5 hours of credit!

MagPBS
04-14-2018, 10:23 AM
Do you have anything to back that up? What would it hurt them to change the way they arrange the trips? I know Mesa is given x amount of flying to divvy up, but they could still make the majority of four-days have at least 19.5 hours of credit!

And you know this how? Have you ever build pairings? Have you used the software and dealt with the issues of crew staging and FAR rest requirements?

I’ve built pairings. I also have two exceptional pilots building pairings every month. We’ve even had the software company build pairings.

To say you know that pairing are being built crappily just to screw the pilots shows you know nothing about what’s involved and the amount of work that goes into pairing production every month.

Please come out to PHX during pairing production if you are so sure you know how to do it better.

P Owed Captain
04-14-2018, 10:52 AM
Maybe your great team needs a few tips from the airlines that do give better schedules and provide a better QOL, especially if the company's goal is retaining pilots!

P Owed Captain
04-14-2018, 11:05 AM
Btw, you were instantly confrontational when I never specifically addressed you. You seem to feel this is a personal attack against you. You are not the face of Mesa. I was not holding you responsible for my lousy trips. I know about FAR requirements, like any other pilot would. X amount of flying in x amount of hours. But 20 hours of flying in a week's time would be allowed, so why not trips of 20 hours? Why not more legs on days 2 and 3 to allow commutability on days 1 and 4? Instead of answering valid questions, you'd rather come at me with fists flying. Concise explanations would be much more believable than going into defense mode and taking it so personally as if Mesa is your baby that you built from scratch.

MagPBS
04-14-2018, 11:16 AM
Btw, you were instantly confrontational when I never specifically addressed you. You seem to feel this is a personal attack against you. You are not the face of Mesa. I was not holding you responsible for my lousy trips. I know about FAR requirements, like any other pilot would. X amount of flying in x amount of hours. But 20 hours of flying in a week's time would be allowed, so why not trips of 20 hours? Why not more legs on days 2 and 3 to allow commutability on days 1 and 4? Instead of answering valid questions, you'd rather come at me with fists flying. Concise explanations would be much more believable than going into defense mode and taking it so personally as if Mesa is your baby that you built from scratch.

You went after my team. I am the scheduling chairman and that puts it all under me. You started out right off the bat confrontational with your post. With quite a few assumptions that are wrong and that you have no supporting information on.

How about we start with this, instead of coming on here complaining about something you assume you know something about, have you ever emailed the scheduling committee to ask what the process is? why pairings turn out the way they do? Or did you just come on an open forum and bash a group of people you haven't met, and don't know a thing about?

Just some examples of how you started out wrong from the start...


"Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece?" - Really, you know they're being built purposely below 20 hours? How?

"It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends!" - Yet another accusatory statement without merit.

"It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. " - Yes because you as a line pilot know way more about pairing production then those who are trained on it and know why X has to happen vs Y.

"I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?" - No less then 4 things in your first post come off as confrontational and being done purposely to "harm" you.

And yet another one you throw out there.
"Maybe your great team needs a few tips from the airlines that do give better schedules and provide a better QOL, especially if the company's goal is retaining pilots!"

Even the thread title is confrontational: Mesa purposely makes QOL worse than necessary


You are the passenger in the back of the plane that come up and says that's the worst landing ever after a 30kt crosswind with windshear. You have no idea what was/is involved in the process and you've made no attempt to learn before sharing with the world that you know better and that we are all doing it wrong.

MrWizard
04-14-2018, 11:40 AM
Let's not forget all of us have the right to freedom of speech. If a pilot on this forum acts like the passenger in the back wrt a difficult landing, so be it.

This thread became immediately confrontational, both ways. We all know this company could be better, and trip scheduling efficiency is only one of many issues that affect QoL here.

With all due respect to MagPBS since he is involved in the work, and none of us others here are: the system needs to be improved.

Right now, we have choices available as consumers (pilots) to go elsewhere to shop (employers). It is a buyer's market right now.

If you think the system here is broken, and IMO it is indeed that, then work to make it better. Any dedicated employee, salaried white collar or hourly blue collar, strives to improve their workplace. I don't think that requires union volunteering, but good on those that choose to do that.

As long as the executive staff remains the same, and in particular the CEO remains: Mesa will never, ever, change. History does in fact repeat itself.

The longer one stays here and accepts the status quo, the more you become part of the problem. We've all seen it with many of the 'lifers' here.

boeingdvr
04-15-2018, 02:35 AM
Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece? I thought about how May had 5 workweeks in it where I could possibly get a whole week off if I bid correctly to get my 78 hours into 4 weeks of bidding. I thought it would be great to get 15 or 16 days off in May rather than my usual 11 or 12. But no, if I bid four weeks of trips that are about 19.3 or 19.4 hours apiece, I will be below 78, and they will be sure to throw another trip in there. It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends! You'll have your first and last day, the commute day, chock full of legs, and the two days in the middle will be short days. It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?

FAA 117 creates a lot of issues.
Hub and Spoke creates a lot of issues.
Short 1-2 hour legs creates even more issues.
Your goal is to get to 75-80 as quick as possible.

Unfortunately 1-2 hour legs with all the other legalities make it incredibly difficult.

Excargodog
04-15-2018, 11:31 AM
FAA 117 creates a lot of issues.
Hub and Spoke creates a lot of issues.
Short 1-2 hour legs creates even more issues.
Your goal is to get to 75-80 as quick as possible.

Unfortunately 1-2 hour legs with all the other legalities make it incredibly difficult.

And yet airlines with good trip and duty rigs, and high daily minimum credit, manage all those things far more successfully. It depends, I suppose, on how the contract incentivizes management.

You get the QOL you are willing to settle for.

Mrhr5b
04-15-2018, 09:17 PM
Forgive my ignorance but which regionals offer that sort of bidding/schedule?

Excargodog
04-15-2018, 09:28 PM
Forgive my ignorance but which regionals offer that sort of bidding/schedule?

Earn between $270,000 and $317,000 with benefits in your first three years of employment when you upgrade in 18 months.
$57,000 Signing Bonuses
$35.53/hour first year First Officer pay
401(k) match up to 8% dependent on employee contribution regardless of Years of Service (including First Officers), which is the highest among regionals
Most generous health insurance benefits in the industry combined with only a 25% employee premium share
Any additional flying volunteered for on a day off is paid at 150 or 200% your hourly rate
Hourly pay scale increases by 1.5% every year in addition to annual longevity increases
Transition of entire fleet to United Airlines to be complete in early 2018.
Minimum 12 days off per month
All pilots provided an iPad with electronic navigational charts and manuals
Duty Rig: 2:1; Trip Rig: 4:1
Hotel rooms for breaks between flights of 4.5 hours or more
Extra day off if you arrive after 2:00 a.m. on the last "day" of a trip
Up to 35 paid vacation days per year
In-house Certified Training Program (CTP) provided by Air Wisconsin instructors and simulators
Pilots paid monthly guarantee and receive benefits during CTP training
ATC call sign: "Wisconsin"

Mrhr5b
04-15-2018, 09:48 PM
Earn between $270,000 and $317,000 with benefits in your first three years of employment when you upgrade in 18 months.
$57,000 Signing Bonuses
$35.53/hour first year First Officer pay
401(k) match up to 8% dependent on employee contribution regardless of Years of Service (including First Officers), which is the highest among regionals
Most generous health insurance benefits in the industry combined with only a 25% employee premium share
Any additional flying volunteered for on a day off is paid at 150 or 200% your hourly rate
Hourly pay scale increases by 1.5% every year in addition to annual longevity increases
Transition of entire fleet to United Airlines to be complete in early 2018.
Minimum 12 days off per month
All pilots provided an iPad with electronic navigational charts and manuals
Duty Rig: 2:1; Trip Rig: 4:1
Hotel rooms for breaks between flights of 4.5 hours or more
Extra day off if you arrive after 2:00 a.m. on the last "day" of a trip
Up to 35 paid vacation days per year
In-house Certified Training Program (CTP) provided by Air Wisconsin instructors and simulators
Pilots paid monthly guarantee and receive benefits during CTP training
ATC call sign: "Wisconsin"

Is that from personal experience? Most guys I know are leaving air whisky. 12 days off a month is better than 11 but still doesn’t mean efficient trips, or satisfying the complaints of the original poster.

No Land 3
04-16-2018, 12:33 AM
If you make above a certain amount of money to live comfortably, money is no longer the most important factor. Just sayin...
Does it really matter if you make 300,000 vs 400,000 a year? Maybe if you live in San Francisco, but certainly not in Florida.
Being able to be at home when you want and not stressing about commuting can be far more important than additional money.

frankgh
04-16-2018, 11:18 AM
Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece? I thought about how May had 5 workweeks in it where I could possibly get a whole week off if I bid correctly to get my 78 hours into 4 weeks of bidding. I thought it would be great to get 15 or 16 days off in May rather than my usual 11 or 12. But no, if I bid four weeks of trips that are about 19.3 or 19.4 hours apiece, I will be below 78, and they will be sure to throw another trip in there. It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends! You'll have your first and last day, the commute day, chock full of legs, and the two days in the middle will be short days. It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?

I wouldn't dare guess why your experience is so poor. I've held a line at DFW since December, average 13 days off a month and I've only had to commute in a day early 3 times. My trips have been very commutable. I've only been JA once and it canceled before it started. Attitude is altitude. Every time I've asked MAGpbs for some advice, he has always helped me. YMMV but mines been really good!

calmwinds
04-16-2018, 12:22 PM
I wouldn't dare guess why your experience is so poor. I've held a line at DFW since December, average 13 days off a month and I've only had to commute in a day early 3 times. My trips have been very commutable. I've only been JA once and it canceled before it started. Attitude is altitude. Every time I've asked MAGpbs for some advice, he has always helped me. YMMV but mines been really good!

It might be unstacking. My schedule this month was horrible —— not in the same way. It seems that even though I place days first in my “prefer off” list (such as my kid’s birthday), I don’t get them off. Then, I see pilots junior to me get a schedule that would have worked for me. But, apparently, unstacking seems to focus on maximizing the flying a pilot does to the detriment of the preferences he puts in PBS.

I have read the document on the alpa site on unstacking trying to figure out what can make life more bearable. Just when I think I have it figured out, unstacking is done in an even more aggressive.

Given another 1,000 flight hours, and what I believe to be fewer FO’s to be scheduled, I am assuming the worst for my May schedule.

FollowMe
04-16-2018, 01:19 PM
Efficiency in trip construction is a direct derivative of network schedule efficiency. Unfortunately since the mainline partners dictate network schedules to their regionals, the regional themselves have little to no ability to impact the efficiency of the network schedule. Inefficient trips cost an airline in either dollars (soft pay) or manpower (more pilots needed to cover the same amount of block). To believe that an airline is purposely creating inefficient trips is to believe that their disdain for you personally is so deep that they would be willing to make less money just to watch you suffer.

Sennant
04-16-2018, 01:41 PM
It might be unstacking. My schedule this month was horrible —— not in the same way. It seems that even though I place days first in my “prefer off” list (such as my kid’s birthday), I don’t get them off. Then, I see pilots junior to me get a schedule that would have worked for me. But, apparently, unstacking seems to focus on maximizing the flying a pilot does to the detriment of the preferences he puts in PBS.

I have read the document on the alpa site on unstacking trying to figure out what can make life more bearable. Just when I think I have it figured out, unstacking is done in an even more aggressive.

Given another 1,000 flight hours, and what I believe to be fewer FO’s to be scheduled, I am assuming the worst for my May schedule.


That's a staffing problem, not a pairing problem.

calmwinds
04-16-2018, 02:38 PM
That's a staffing problem, not a pairing problem.

Agreed. If we were staffed so that pairings were awarded based on what a pilot bid, from senior to junior, then QOL would be much better. It is only if either a pilot is very, very senior, doesn’t have a life outside of Mesa, or will endure suffering for maximum flying, that working here makes any sense —— particularly on the Ejet side.

Whatmeworry
04-16-2018, 07:27 PM
You went after my team. I am the scheduling chairman and that puts it all under me. You started out right off the bat confrontational with your post. With quite a few assumptions that are wrong and that you have no supporting information on.

How about we start with this, instead of coming on here complaining about something you assume you know something about, have you ever emailed the scheduling committee to ask what the process is? why pairings turn out the way they do? Or did you just come on an open forum and bash a group of people you haven't met, and don't know a thing about?

Just some examples of how you started out wrong from the start...


"Have you noticed how they purposely make a lot of the trips under 19.5 hours apiece?" - Really, you know they're being built purposely below 20 hours? How?

"It also infuriates me how they try their best to make the trips so that they're not easily commutable on one end or the other, or lately even both ends!" - Yet another accusatory statement without merit.

"It would make more sense to have the long days on days 2 and 3, and the shorter ones on days 1 and 4 to make it easier to commute without being forced to pay for a hotel room at one end or the other. " - Yes because you as a line pilot know way more about pairing production then those who are trained on it and know why X has to happen vs Y.

"I wonder why they want to make life more miserable when it's hard enough to find pilots as it is?" - No less then 4 things in your first post come off as confrontational and being done purposely to "harm" you.

And yet another one you throw out there.
"Maybe your great team needs a few tips from the airlines that do give better schedules and provide a better QOL, especially if the company's goal is retaining pilots!"

Even the thread title is confrontational: Mesa purposely makes QOL worse than necessary


You are the passenger in the back of the plane that come up and says that's the worst landing ever after a 30kt crosswind with windshear. You have no idea what was/is involved in the process and you've made no attempt to learn before sharing with the world that you know better and that we are all doing it wrong.

Wow!! Maybe if the union was a little more aggressive like this with the company maybe the contract would have been a little better.... do you talk to JO like that?

calmwinds
04-17-2018, 05:52 AM
That's a staffing problem, not a pairing problem.

I have rarely encounter a pairing problem. I have flown 28 hour 4 days and I have flown 18 hour 4 days. The 18 hour 4 day was unstacked onto my schedule. My PBS bid seeks compressed flying in order to maximize days off. I understand we pick up the leftovers and routes the major doesn’t want or can’t fly that causes some 18 hour 4 days to exist.

If we were properly staffed (which is reliant on a competent training department and recruiting efforts and proper compensation) and I was awarded what I bid, then I wouldn’t have a crappy schedule and think about quitting the 19th of every month.

P Owed Captain
04-17-2018, 06:00 AM
Wow!! Maybe if the union was a little more aggressive like this with the company maybe the contract would have been a little better.... do you talk to JO like that?

Excellent point!

Excargodog
04-17-2018, 07:38 AM
To believe that an airline is purposely creating inefficient trips is to believe that their disdain for you personally is so deep that they would be willing to make less money just to watch you suffer.

Which is the very purpose of minimum daily credit, trip and duty rigs, higher per Diem, and higher credit for deadheading provisions. And although many of those things may have seemed (or even been) unobtainable at the regional level previously, those market dynamics are changing with the pilot shortage.

At the very least everyone aspiring to go to the majors ought to understand how these mechanisms align making money for the management with quality of life for the guys flying the line, even if your pilot organization currently lacks the clout to get them instituted.

20sx
04-17-2018, 01:24 PM
Wow!! Maybe if the union was a little more aggressive like this with the company maybe the contract would have been a little better.... do you talk to JO like that?

Xan doesn't talk to JO about the contract, the negotiators did. Remember, it was IAH and PHX that pushed the TA through with their high percentage of yes voters.

YVslave
04-18-2018, 06:06 AM
Wow!! Maybe if the union was a little more aggressive like this with the company maybe the contract would have been a little better.... do you talk to JO like that?


Like he would answer that on a public forum. The union and JO most certainly have some sort of secret allegiance.

Sennant
04-18-2018, 07:38 AM
Like he would answer that on a public forum. The union and JO most certainly have some sort of secret allegiance.

We’re do you all get this stuff. I’ve been here through the friendly MECs and militant (locked out of corporate) MECs. The one constant was how Mesa dealt with us. Or more appropriately refused to deal with us.

If the company and the union were truly working together things would be a lot better.

YVslave
04-18-2018, 08:32 AM
If the company and the union were truly working together things would be a lot better.

Yeah right. Working together to pad everyone coffers, except the ones that do all the work to make it happen, i.e., pilots and FA's.

Please don't reply about the 300% and attendance stuff, whole other bag of worms IMO.

Sniper66
04-18-2018, 01:58 PM
We’re do you all get this stuff. I’ve been here through the friendly MECs and militant (locked out of corporate) MECs. The one constant was how Mesa dealt with us. Or more appropriately refused to deal with us.

If the company and the union were truly working together things would be a lot better.





The militant MEC kept Mesa independent during your BK (2010) and saved many jobs. Not JO
If SKW had bought your company there would have been no Mesa
Thanks to ALPA it was turned down ( creditors com co chair )
FYI only 512 pilot were offered a job at SKW out of 1295 pilots to include the forloughees
that was their final offer but the cash was a lot!!!!

Don’t drink management cool aid, they are not your friends
Were you above the 512 number or below at 8/2010?

Cloudsurfer83
04-18-2018, 10:39 PM
Well hold on! It depends on where you are based

I flew the AA system very rare you get a 20 hour 4 day! Mostly 17-19 hours
And very inefficient lines in AA system. Now united in IAD 4 day trips are more 20+ bours making more money in IAD than DFW. Ejet i dont know so maybe switching bases is what you need to do?

Cloudsurfer83
04-18-2018, 10:41 PM
I have rarely encounter a pairing problem. I have flown 28 hour 4 days and I have flown 18 hour 4 days. The 18 hour 4 day was unstacked onto my schedule. My PBS bid seeks compressed flying in order to maximize days off. I understand we pick up the leftovers and routes the major doesn’t want or can’t fly that causes some 18 hour 4 days to exist.

If we were properly staffed (which is reliant on a competent training department and recruiting efforts and proper compensation) and I was awarded what I bid, then I wouldn’t have a crappy schedule and think about quitting the 19th of every month.

The eficiency is between united vs aa systems. Lower credit trips on average on AA side of the house. are you ejet?

calmwinds
04-19-2018, 06:27 AM
The eficiency is between united vs aa systems. Lower credit trips on average on AA side of the house. are you ejet?

Yes, I fly the Ejet. I would also suspect that the flying “scraps” in the AA system fall outside of their wholly owned regionals. QOL doesn’t exist on the Ejet either. Unstacking is horrible. 95+ hour lines prevelant. Minimum credit nearly non-existent. Our training program for new hires in disarray. Despite flying the Ejet, we continue to see a net loss of pilots over the past few months.

Skyler02
04-19-2018, 07:42 AM
QOL doesn’t exist on the Ejet either. Unstacking is horrible. 95+ hour lines prevelant. Minimum credit nearly non-existent. Our training program for new hires in disarray. Despite flying the Ejet, we continue to see a net loss of pilots over the past few months.

May schedules. :eek:
QOL can’t get any worse.
It is not going to get any better.
Unless you have no life outside of work, this isn’t going to work for most people.

MagPBS
04-19-2018, 07:47 AM
I'm posting May information in Mesa 3.0.

calmwinds
04-19-2018, 07:49 AM
May schedules. :eek:
QOL can’t get any worse.
It is not going to get any better.
Unless you have no life outside of work, this isn’t going to work for most people.

Are May schedules out on CrewPay?

Skyler02
04-19-2018, 07:49 AM
I'm posting May information in Mesa 3.0.

Thanks MagPBS

Yes. CrewPay