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jetliner1526
04-17-2018, 10:30 AM
JetBlue Flight Attendants Vote To Join Transport Workers Union
Ted Reed

Transport Workers Union has won a unionization election for JetBlue flight attendants.

The vote was 2,661 in favor and 1,387 opposed, said a union spokesman.

"This historic victory is yet another example of the tide turning in America as workers continue to lock arms and fight back to defend their livelihoods," said TWU President John Samuelsen in a prepared statement.

“The TWU intends to immediately commence contract bargaining with JetBlue,” Samuelsen said. “It is our sincerest wish that the company comes to the table and bargains a fair and just contract with the workers they employ.


He said the union will seek a contract that provides flight attendants with job security, a grievance procedure, improved wages and benefits and “a seat at the table in case of possible merger or acquisition.”

“If JetBlue refuses to bargain in good faith, this union is prepared to engage in a fightback campaign that will continue until a contract is secured and the inflight crewmembers are protected,” Samuelsen said.

TWU filed for the flight attendant election in December 2017.


rightside02
04-17-2018, 11:09 AM
Good for the FA , I am sure it's a needed evil on property . Sadly I think this will slow things down even further for the pilot group and your negotiations .

terminal
04-17-2018, 11:19 AM
Good for them!


Bozo the pilot
04-17-2018, 11:44 AM
Lets hear the B6 BS spin. lol:D:

queue
04-17-2018, 12:02 PM
JetBlue Flight Attendants Vote To Join Transport Workers Union
Ted Reed

Transport Workers Union has won a unionization election for JetBlue flight attendants.

The vote was 2,661 in favor and 1,387 opposed, said a union spokesman.

“The TWU intends to immediately commence contract bargaining with JetBlue,” Samuelsen said. “It is our sincerest wish that the company comes to the table and bargains a fair and just contract with the workers they employ.
“If JetBlue refuses to bargain in good faith, this union is prepared to engage in a fightback campaign that will continue until a contract is secured and the inflight crewmembers are protected,” Samuelsen said.

TWU filed for the flight attendant election in December 2017.


I'm shocked it was only 65% pro-union. That's not all that high.

Samuelson should have said "Since JetBlue has consistently demonstrated the inability to bargain in good faith, we unionized and are seeking immediate remedies."



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-17-2018, 12:13 PM
Good for the FA , I am sure it's a needed evil on property . Sadly I think this will slow things down even further for the pilot group and your negotiations .


It's a false argument that FA's unionizing will slow down pilot negotiations. There is absolutely no reason for that being so. Pilot negotiations are already at the the slowest of any industry on the planet. I'm sure monkeys could reverse engineer a UFO in less time.

BJ is CHOOSING to keep negotiations at a slow pace. How long did it take BJ to negotiate new engines from P&W? How long did it take to negotiate new airplanes with Airbus? How long did it take to negotiate new interiors? Don't include testing or anything like that... I speak strictly of negotiations.

Remember, pilot contracts are not cosmic stuff. These contracts are almost drag-and-drop. It's not like every airline has vastly different contracts. This is simple transportation sector stuff. They're not designing the Space Shuttle for the first time. All of this can be hashed out in DAYS. So, no one should be content with months, much less years of negotiations.

If BJ says that it is too busy negotiating two contracts, ALPA should make lots of noise to the mediator. BJ has been filibustering for years and taking advantage of the RLA. Mediation has been ineffectual.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
04-17-2018, 12:59 PM
Blewjet put together a 4 BILLION dollar package for Virgin America in weeks/months.

They are intentionally slow rolling pilot negotiations. Anyone who doesn't see that should lose their medical certificate.

pilotpayne
04-17-2018, 03:18 PM
Good for the FA , I am sure it's a needed evil on property . Sadly I think this will slow things down even further for the pilot group and your negotiations .


Why would it?

PowderFinger
04-18-2018, 02:23 PM
I'm shocked it was only 65% pro-union. That's not all that high.

Samuelson should have said "Since JetBlue has consistently demonstrated the inability to bargain in good faith, we unionized and are seeking immediate remedies."



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

They are flight attendants... They don't know how to spell solidarity much less understand or embrace the concept. Soon they will be complaining about their $30 a month dues ... Or whatever it is.

Many of the ones that probably voted against the union are probably the ones that need it the most. Flight attendants are like unions ... A necessary evil. ;)

rightside02
04-19-2018, 03:47 AM
I don't feel it SHOULD slow you guys down in getting the CBA . I just can see it as an excuse the co pant could use in slowing things down , clearly the company could have a CBA tomorrow if they wanted I know . I just see this as another excuse like ATC .

Bluetruth
04-19-2018, 05:11 AM
They are flight attendants... They don't know how to spell solidarity much less understand or embrace the concept. Soon they will be complaining about their $30 a month dues ... Or whatever it is.

Many of the ones that probably voted against the union are probably the ones that need it the most. Flight attendants are like unions ... A necessary evil. ;)

1. Solidarity? They voted in the Union during their very first election. Took you three times, and there was just a 5 percent difference in approval spread between FAs and Pilots.

2. its 35 a month and they don't have to start paying it until a contract is finished and signed. Think about that next time you send your check to ALPA.

3. They already have far more political support across both parties, publically, than we've seen in three years for you, a lot of it concentrated in B6 headquarters, New York, but also on the national level.

4. A necessary evil? gonna remember this one when they drop the F/O position down the road as aircraft get more and more automated. Lets see which comes first advanced auto-pilots or robotic stewardesses. ;)

Gonna laugh when they get a contract signed first.

Bozo the pilot
04-19-2018, 05:25 AM
1. Solidarity? They voted in the Union during their very first election. Took you three times, and there was just a 5 percent difference in approval spread between FAs and Pilots.

2. its 35 a month and they don't have to start paying it until a contract is finished and signed. Think about that next time you send your check to ALPA.

3. They already have far more political support across both parties, publically, than we've seen in three years for you, a lot of it concentrated in B6 headquarters, New York, but also on the national level.

4. A necessary evil? gonna remember this one when they drop the F/O position down the road as aircraft get more and more automated. Lets see which comes first advanced auto-pilots or robotic stewardesses. ;)

Gonna laugh when they get a contract signed first.

You routin against?

PowderFinger
04-19-2018, 07:46 AM
1. Solidarity? They voted in the Union during their very first election. Took you three times, and there was just a 5 percent difference in approval spread between FAs and Pilots.

2. its 35 a month and they don't have to start paying it until a contract is finished and signed. Think about that next time you send your check to ALPA.

3. They already have far more political support across both parties, publically, than we've seen in three years for you, a lot of it concentrated in B6 headquarters, New York, but also on the national level.

4. A necessary evil? gonna remember this one when they drop the F/O position down the road as aircraft get more and more automated. Lets see which comes first advanced auto-pilots or robotic stewardesses. ;)

Gonna laugh when they get a contract signed first.

My comment was based on a 30+ year observation.

Will not be a concern for me but I do believe your #4 will come to pass.

queue
04-19-2018, 07:56 AM
1. Solidarity? They voted in the Union during their very first election. Took you three times, and there was just a 5 percent difference in approval spread between FAs and Pilots.

2. its 35 a month and they don't have to start paying it until a contract is finished and signed. Think about that next time you send your check to ALPA.

This and the 1.9%++ cost has always bothered me. It would be one thing to demand this much money if they delivered superior results but results just aren't there. Even though I'm an ALPA supporter, I'm only so because it's the best practical option at the moment. I still think ALPA needs to either charge 60% less or deliver 500% more. The ALPA apologists attack me on this but all members need to demand much, much more of ALPA. Case in point.. it takes YEARS to negotiate a contract that should take 5 days. They are drag-and-drop contracts that are very simple compared to others. ALPA has failed to institute political change to amend the RLA to disallow corporate filibustering. Get rid of the mediation process. Give the company a solid 30 days to agree to a finalized contract (e.g. 30 days of negotiation) or release pilots to strike on day 31.

3. They already have far more political support across both parties, publically, than we've seen in three years for you, a lot of it concentrated in B6 headquarters, New York, but also on the national level.

Any examples of this? If they are doing something ALPA is not, its time to hold ALPA accountable for their underperformance.



4. A necessary evil? gonna remember this one when they drop the F/O position down the road as aircraft get more and more automated. Lets see which comes first advanced auto-pilots or robotic stewardesses. ;)

Gonna laugh when they get a contract signed first.

From a technological standpoint, I don't think CAs or FOs should ever be removed from an airplane. It's impossible to engineer a foolproof aircraft that can negotiate every conceivable scenario. Any computer ultimately requires electricity and ultimately is subject to software mis-design. There's just no way around that. Yet, I don't see ALPA or Teamsters affecting pre-emptive political change to keep 2 pilots in the cockpit.

If they get a contract first, it's because they are easier to appease and they cost significantly less than a pilot. Remember this is a career for a pilot. An FA can move between any service industry jobs fairly easily. I know of one FA that got fired from BJ and now is an FA at Delta. Somehow I doubt it would be that easy for a pilot. That being said, pilots better not agree to a crappy contract. Strike is our only real power and it needs to be used often and without reservation.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

django
04-20-2018, 01:51 AM
Q, are you intimate familiar with the provision of the RLA? It wouldn’t appear so based on your statements.

queue
04-20-2018, 02:25 PM
Q, are you intimate familiar with the provision of the RLA? It wouldn’t appear so based on your statements.

Which one? My statements were regarding changing the RLA. That's the core failure. We need to redefine the rules of the game. Otherwise, the house always wins.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Q, are you intimate familiar with the provision of the RLA? It wouldn’t appear so based on your statements.

By the way, you (everybody) should watch the PBS documentary What Lies Upstream. It's about water pollution but it shows the corrupt system of unelected bureaucrats that make the regulations that govern for federal agencies. Juxtapose this to the FAA. How much have we (ALPA) lobbied to get the RLA changed? There is one scene in that documentary where the stakeholders are all big corporations having a meeting with a government agency to regulate water. It starts at 50 minutes in.

https://www.njtvonline.org/programs/independent-lens/what-lies-upstream-eb1e3w/

It sounds like what we need are a series of special interest groups of our own, each its own corporation, that show up to FAA meetings of all kinds to benefit pilots. The liberal left has tons of these organizations (e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center) which have their tentacles deep into media, social manipulation, the education system, entertainment, and especially government. After watching this, it makes you wonder who really wrote the RLA.

Let's further study this... look at what happened with the recent catastrophic engine failure over at Southwest Airlines. From ALPA:

"By AJ Dellinger, Gizmodo. "As the National Transportation Safety Board continues to investigate what caused an engine explosion on a Southwest flight that led to the death of a passenger earlier this week, Reuters reported the airlines fought against new inspections rules proposed by the engine manufacturer. In September 2016, a Southwest flight suffered a similar engine explosion that resulted from a broken fan blade and tore a nearly foot-long hole into the wing of the aircraft, which forced to make an emergency landing. ... While the proposal gained the support of the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents more than 60,000 pilots in the US and Canada, Southwest—a company that posted a total revenue of $21.2 billion in 2017—opposed the rule change, taking issue with the government's math and proposed timetable for the inspections: SWA does NOT support the CFM comment on reducing compliance time to 12 months."Here's the article:

https://gizmodo.com/southwest-reportedly-protested-safety-checks-designed-t-1825405710

Again, lobbying got a corporation what they want. Why are we (ALPA) not having the same level of effect as industry lobbyists?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

django
04-21-2018, 01:50 AM
“It’s a conspiracy I tell you!”

hyperboy
04-21-2018, 03:51 AM
By the way, you (everybody) should watch the PBS documentary What Lies Upstream. It's about water pollution but it shows the corrupt system of unelected bureaucrats that make the regulations that govern for federal agencies. Juxtapose this to the FAA. How much have we (ALPA) lobbied to get the RLA changed? There is one scene in that documentary where the stakeholders are all big corporations having a meeting with a government agency to regulate water. It starts at 50 minutes in.

https://www.njtvonline.org/programs/independent-lens/what-lies-upstream-eb1e3w/

It sounds like what we need are a series of special interest groups of our own, each its own corporation, that show up to FAA meetings of all kinds to benefit pilots. The liberal left has tons of these organizations (e.g. Southern Poverty Law Center) which have their tentacles deep into media, social manipulation, the education system, entertainment, and especially government. After watching this, it makes you wonder who really wrote the RLA.

Let's further study this... look at what happened with the recent catastrophic engine failure over at Southwest Airlines. From ALPA:
Here's the article:

https://gizmodo.com/southwest-reportedly-protested-safety-checks-designed-t-1825405710

Again, lobbying got a corporation what they want. Why are we (ALPA) not having the same level of effect as industry lobbyists?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Love your entertainment as stated at the bottom of your posts.

PowderFinger
04-21-2018, 04:08 AM
“It’s a conspiracy I tell you!”


That's how conspiracy works. Them boys on the grassy knoll, they were dead within three hours. Buried in the damn desert. Unmarked graves out past Terlingua.

Warhawg01
04-21-2018, 04:52 AM
You are delusional if you think the RLA — a law with its primary goal of not disrupting interstate commerce — can be changed that would allow a union to strike in 31 days.

In your fantasy world, what would prevent a union from demanding $1000 per hour and 25 days off a month and then kicking back and waiting for day 31?

I’m not defending the current years-long process, but dreaming of unicorns and rainbows isn’t going to fix it.

WhistlePig
04-21-2018, 04:54 AM
By the way, you (everybody) should watch the PBS documentary What Lies Upstream. It's about water pollution but it shows the corrupt system of unelected bureaucrats that make the regulations that govern for federal agencies.

That's the way government works. That's they way it's supposed to work. You can google Chevron deference on your own.

Regarding the Southern Poverty Law Center: They bankrupt the KKK, literally made them disappear for decades, at least until the climate in America was more accepting of them again. You have an issue with that??

PowderFinger
04-21-2018, 05:16 AM
That's the way government works. That's they way it's supposed to work. You can google Chevron deference on your own.

Regarding the Southern Poverty Law Center: They bankrupt the KKK, literally made them disappear for decades, at least until the climate in America was more accepting of them again. You have an issue with that??

Spot on.

It amazes me that QU bashes the left while wanting to strengthen the RLA ... Truth be known most people I know on the right would like to get rid of unions altogether ... Make all states "Right to Work" which actually means "right to fire for any reason without cause".

We need to get back to meeting in the middle. JMHO

queue
04-21-2018, 08:56 AM
Love your entertainment as stated at the bottom of your posts.

It's for legal reasons. That way the opposition cannot say that it's an attempt to organize a job action. In other words, it's clearly labeled as first amendment protected speech. Everything you watch on TV, particularly the "news", is also for "entertainment only". I would also say that I'm not offering legal advice or medical advice.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-21-2018, 09:06 AM
You are delusional if you think the RLA — a law with its primary goal of not disrupting interstate commerce — can be changed that would allow a union to strike in 31 days.

In your fantasy world, what would prevent a union from demanding $1000 per hour and 25 days off a month and then kicking back and waiting for day 31?

I’m not defending the current years-long process, but dreaming of unicorns and rainbows isn’t going to fix it.

Why is it dilusional? Because you cannot fathom a law that actually benefits employees? What we DO know is that the RLA is not serving the stakeholders very well, except for corporations. If disruption of interstate commerce is a concern, then simply a corporation can keep its employees happy. It's not very hard to follow the golden rule except when you are excessively greedy.

In my fantasy world, why would you assume that a union *would* demand $1000/hr + 25 off? Why do you have asymmetric trust levels for management vs. employees? Even the most powerful union on the planet, the civilian federal government employee union, still requires their employees to actually work. Not all of them are bad, even though I was their biggest enemy, once upon a time. Abuses could've been handled by more transparency. I'm not against that... I welcome it. That's why I attack ALPA as well as work for them. Did you know that government agencies are now ignoring FOIA requests that ask for federal employee salaries? That's an abuse that the government employee union needs to clean house about.

The thing we KNOW from history is that management unilaterally screws employees most of the time. Why do we allow our servant government to take power away from the average person?

Why are you so intellectually defeated that you cannot imagine a different, better world?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-21-2018, 09:19 AM
Spot on.

It amazes me that QU bashes the left while wanting to strengthen the RLA ... Truth be known most people I know on the right would like to get rid of unions altogether ... Make all states "Right to Work" which actually means "right to fire for any reason without cause".

We need to get back to meeting in the middle. JMHO

I bash the left because they are fascist authoritarians that market themselves by exploiting minorities, race bating, sexism, and censorship while doing absolutely nothing to solve any problems. The left believes in Socialism and Communism - they want the government to run your life and that your *rights* come from the state. These are systems that have been proven throughout history, without exception, not to work. They always end up in poverty (NYC, Chicago, SFO, LAX, Venezuela), fascism (National Socialism - Nazis), and death (Chairman Mao of China - millions and millions dead). The *only* system that has ever worked is a Constitutional Republic whose economic system is governed by free choice (Capitalism) where everyone has equal power.

I'm not on the "establishment right"... I'm a Constitutionalist. That also means that I am not anti-union in our current state of affairs. Ideally if we didn't have the RLA, we wouldn't need unions. The *only* reason we need unions now is for the LEGAL ability to fight workplace abuses BECAUSE the RLA *does* exist. If we had no RLA, we could go on strike whenever and get results much faster.

What we have now is corporatism. Companies collude with government to write the laws the benefit them. "Right to work" is a perfect example of corporatism. While I support being able to fire people, the RLA has effectively taken your ability to fight back. You forget that even a right to work state, there is no law stopping you from negotiating an individual employment contract with an employer. You could write the contract or an industry watchdog group could write it. For example, a Service Industry Watchdog group could write a simple contract that all service industry workers show up to McDonalds or Joe Moma RV builders with. It would be voluntary for employees to do it but eventually it will sell itself. Like anything else in the world, people support things that deliver. If the contract is weak and worthless, no one will go along with it. Don't think that government (RLA) is the *only* way to solve a problem -- that is an intellectual limitation of the uneducated/willfully ignorant left.

Also, I'm not a anarchist. Government is a necessary evil. As such, it needs to always be minimized. Otherwise, government always has the same modes of failure (see my previous link to that drinking water documentary). We don't need more laws, we need BETTER laws. The RLA needs to be amended to benefit us just as much as corporations.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PowderFinger
04-21-2018, 10:39 AM
I bash the left because they are fascist authoritarians that market themselves by exploiting minorities, race bating, sexism, and censorship while doing absolutely nothing to solve any problems. The left believes in Socialism and Communism - they want the government to run your life and that your *rights* come from the state. These are systems that have been proven throughout history, without exception, not to work. They always end up in poverty (NYC, Chicago, SFO, LAX, Venezuela), fascism (National Socialism - Nazis), and death (Chairman Mao of China - millions and millions dead). The *only* system that has ever worked is a Constitutional Republic whose economic system is governed by free choice (Capitalism) where everyone has equal power.

I'm not on the "establishment right"... I'm a Constitutionalist. That also means that I am not anti-union in our current state of affairs. Ideally if we didn't have the RLA, we wouldn't need unions. The *only* reason we need unions now is for the LEGAL ability to fight workplace abuses BECAUSE the RLA *does* exist. If we had no RLA, we could go on strike whenever and get results much faster.

What we have now is corporatism. Companies collude with government to write the laws the benefit them. "Right to work" is a perfect example of corporatism. While I support being able to fire people, the RLA has effectively taken your ability to fight back. You forget that even a right to work state, there is no law stopping you from negotiating an individual employment contract with an employer. You could write the contract or an industry watchdog group could write it. For example, a Service Industry Watchdog group could write a simple contract that all service industry workers show up to McDonalds or Joe Moma RV builders with. It would be voluntary for employees to do it but eventually it will sell itself. Like anything else in the world, people support things that deliver. If the contract is weak and worthless, no one will go along with it. Don't think that government (RLA) is the *only* way to solve a problem -- that is an intellectual limitation of the uneducated/willfully ignorant left.

Also, I'm not a anarchist. Government is a necessary evil. As such, it needs to always be minimized. Otherwise, government always has the same modes of failure (see my previous link to that drinking water documentary). We don't need more laws, we need BETTER laws. The RLA needs to be amended to benefit us just as much as corporations.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Thank you for the reply. I have saved this one with a screen shot for my drinking buddies ... Should be great fun next time we get together.

I would think you just made all of that up for entertainment except I have followed your post for a bit and you have been some what consistent,

What a F(reference to Fornication Under Consent of the Kingdom)ked up confused individual to the point you will never be happy. Thanks for the laugh. :D :D :D

queue
04-21-2018, 11:59 AM
Thank you for the reply. I have saved this one with a screen shot for my drinking buddies ... Should be great fun next time we get together.

I would think you just made all of that up for entertainment except I have followed your post for a bit and you have been some what consistent,

What a F(reference to Fornication Under Consent of the Kingdom)ked up confused individual to the point you will never be happy. Thanks for the laugh. :D :D :D

While you drink, ponder about what you are escaping.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
04-21-2018, 01:11 PM
While you drink, ponder about what you are escaping.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


Queue, you are vastly more intelligent than most people. You make balanced arguments and get puzzled looks from people quite often I am guessing. My advice to you is this.

Dumb down your argument.

Example:

The RLA is bad. (Small words.)
It serves management and government. It allows 8 year negotiations meanwhile even speaking about calling out sick is a criminal offense. Free speech anyone? (Dont mention the constitution by name. It makes people feel stupid when they havent read it.) ALPA national has gone off the rails. It cares more about old people flying light sport aircraft than killing the cancer that is the regional industry.

Things more important than 3rd class medicals in LSAs that ALPA doesnt seem to care about?

(Give them a list. Retards love that $hit.)

1. A national seniority list. Take away the biggest impediment to moving to better a better job, and make the airlines compete on pay.

2. Repeal or fix the RLA.

3. Kill the regional industry. Lobby for an end to the practice of Envoy putting AA on its tail and make it clear what is going on there.

Queue. If a word has more than three syllables dont use it unless really needed. Channel Trump. More than half the people on this board think he is a genius.

symbian simian
04-21-2018, 08:51 PM
I bash the left because they are fascist authoritarians that market themselves by exploiting minorities, race bating, sexism, and censorship while doing absolutely nothing to solve any problems. The left believes in Socialism and Communism - they want the government to run your life and that your *rights* come from the state. These are systems that have been proven throughout history, without exception, not to work. They always end up in poverty (NYC, Chicago, SFO, LAX, Venezuela), fascism (National Socialism - Nazis), and death (Chairman Mao of China - millions and millions dead). The *only* system that has ever worked is a Constitutional Republic whose economic system is governed by free choice (Capitalism) where everyone has equal power.

I'm not on the "establishment right"... I'm a Constitutionalist. That also means that I am not anti-union in our current state of affairs. Ideally if we didn't have the RLA, we wouldn't need unions. The *only* reason we need unions now is for the LEGAL ability to fight workplace abuses BECAUSE the RLA *does* exist. If we had no RLA, we could go on strike whenever and get results much faster.

What we have now is corporatism. Companies collude with government to write the laws the benefit them. "Right to work" is a perfect example of corporatism. While I support being able to fire people, the RLA has effectively taken your ability to fight back. You forget that even a right to work state, there is no law stopping you from negotiating an individual employment contract with an employer. You could write the contract or an industry watchdog group could write it. For example, a Service Industry Watchdog group could write a simple contract that all service industry workers show up to McDonalds or Joe Moma RV builders with. It would be voluntary for employees to do it but eventually it will sell itself. Like anything else in the world, people support things that deliver. If the contract is weak and worthless, no one will go along with it. Don't think that government (RLA) is the *only* way to solve a problem -- that is an intellectual limitation of the uneducated/willfully ignorant left.

Also, I'm not a anarchist. Government is a necessary evil. As such, it needs to always be minimized. Otherwise, government always has the same modes of failure (see my previous link to that drinking water documentary). We don't need more laws, we need BETTER laws. The RLA needs to be amended to benefit us just as much as corporations.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Holy what a wall of crap!
No, the left in the USA are not socialist/communist, they mostly believe in democracy as opposed to corporatism.
They are not fascists/national socialist as those are really right wing.
They don't exploit minorities, that is the job of the GOP, same for race BAITING and sexism. ( Unless you don't want equal rights?).
Censorship has F all to do with political orientation.
The latest tax cuts are doing nothing for the economy but the left has a problem with balancing budgets??
NYC, LAX, SFO are cities with very low unemployment and very high wages, how socialist.
Most countries in the EU are on par with the US and are constitutional Monarchies.

Most of all:
You either support your union or you are conservative, there is no way in the current political climate to do both.

queue
04-21-2018, 10:23 PM
Holy what a wall of crap!
No, the left in the USA are not socialist/communist, they mostly believe in democracy as opposed to corporatism. They are not fascists/national socialist as those are really right wing.



https://www.dineshdsouza.com/news/fascist-roots-of-the-american-left/



Short Video - highly educational: https://www.prageru.com/videos/fascism-right-or-left


They don't exploit minorities, that is the job of the GOP, same for race BAITING and sexism. ( Unless you don't want equal rights?).




Of course I want equal rights – equal human rights. I don’t want rights based on race, gender, or any other discriminative metric. The only way to achieve leftist “equality” is through racism, discrimination, and sexism. If you promote one demographic of people based on race, gender, or some other inherent quality, then you infringe on someone else’s rights. For example, the left keep pushing for 50% women/50% men (equality of outcome) rather than having equal human rights and letting the outcomes fall out naturally. In order to achieve 50/50, you have to discriminate based on race, gender, sex, etc.


Have you noticed that the Democrats have not improved anything for minorities? That’s not their real goal. They simply want more votes by “giving you stuff” which ironically was stolen initially via theft through taxation. Keep in mind I am not a defender on the Republicans either but the Democrats market themselves differently. Don't believe leftist marketing slogans. It’s still the Bloods vs. The Crips.

Censorship has F all to do with political orientation.



https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/j-matt-barber/lefts-orwellian-censorship-campaign (https://www.cnsnews.com/blog/j-matt-barber/lefts-orwellian-censorship-campaign)



Google intensifies censorship of left-wing websites (https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/09/19/goog-s19.html)



YouTube Censors Video on … Left-Wing Censorship (https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/culture/matt-philbin/2016/11/01/youtube-censors-video-%E2%80%A6-left-wing-censorship)



BOMBSHELL REPORT: Twitter Employees Admit To Censoring Conservatives, Banning Them For Political Reasons (https://www.dailywire.com/news/25744/bombshell-report-twitter-admits-censoring-ryan-saavedra)



Rigged: Twitter Caught Censoring Tweets About Censorship (https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/twitter-censoring-censorship/)



Conservative And Independent YouTube Channels Hit By Censorship And Demonetization (http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/11/conservative-and-independent-youtube-channels-hit-by-censorship-and-demonetization/)


The latest tax cuts are doing nothing for the economy but the left has a problem with balancing budgets??

Nothing for the economy? Really? Can you prove that high tax rates are beneficial to the USA? At what point will you say taxes are high enough – provide a percentage.

https://economics21.org/files/JFK%20unemployment%20tax%20cuts_1.jpg



NYC, LAX, SFO are cities with very low unemployment and very high wages, how socialist.



San Francisco’s Human Poop Map Shows City Is in Deep Doo-Doo (https://www.redstate.com/kiradavis/2017/10/17/san-franciscos-human-poop-map-shows-city-deep-doo-doo/)



San Francisco's downtown area is more contaminated with drug needles, garbage, and feces than some of the world's poorest slums (http://www.businessinsider.com/why-is-san-francisco-so-dirty-2018-2)



Los Angeles tops the nation in chronically homeless people, federal report finds (http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-chronically-homeless-20161116-story.html)



California ranks last in quality of life in new report (https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2018/03/01/california-ranks-last-quality-life-new-report/384853002/)



Skid Row in Los Angeles. Katie Hopkins. (https://youtu.be/4prW_SLljoY) – really good video report on Skid Row (2018) in L.A.


http://ridley-thomas.lacounty.gov/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/image2-3-1030x668.jpg
Democrat policies in motion…


Most countries in the EU are on par with the US and are constitutional Monarchies.



Let the events in Cypress be a warning to us (https://www.tnonline.com/2013/mar/30/let-events-cypress-be-warning-us)
Are Italy’s Banks About to Explode? (https://www.thetrumpet.com/13510-are-italys-banks-about-to-explode)
The Greek financial crisis, explained in fewer than 500 words (https://www.vox.com/2015/6/29/8862583/greek-financial-crisis-explained)
Sweden: Rape Capital of the West (https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape)
The most violent country in Europe: Britain is also worse than South Africa and U.S (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html)
Brexit The Movie (https://youtu.be/eYqzcqDtL3k) ---- this is a REALLY good documentary.




Most of all:
You either support your union or you are conservative, there is no way in the current political climate to do both.

Sure there is… independent thinking! I’m not constrained by the false left/right paradigm. I see both parties as being anti-liberty, anti-Constitution, anti-freedom, pro-war, pro-big government, anti-free speech, etc.

I don’t support groupings of people (governments, associations, unions, special interest groups, and so on) by that nomenclature alone. If their principles align with me, then we can work together. I support individual principles and actions, not people blindly.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
04-21-2018, 10:38 PM
1. A national seniority list. Take away the biggest impediment to moving to better a better job, and make the airlines compete on pay.

I agree with everything you said. About the seniority list...

How do you integrate military pilots into it? It can't be a simple hours conversion. The military has a vastly different operating domain incomparable to civil transportation operations. There are guys that fly at 80,000 ft.+ in astronaut suits, guys that fight in wars, mid air-to-air refueling of heavy aircraft, low-level airdrops, air-to-air combat, bombing missions, aircraft carrier operations, nuclear weapon missions, test pilots, and so on... They fly a lot less "hours" but they do 10 times more because they do things that isn't done in civil Point A to B flying. I've really considered this and talked it out with ALPA big dogz and there's no fair or easy solution. I'm genuinely interested in finding a good way to have some kind of seniority list.... By definition, a seniority starts when you begin civil flying operations, otherwise you have to somehow insert military pilots into the stack.

https://www.walldevil.com/wallpapers/a46/wallpaper-valkyrie-desktop-planes-nasa-bomber-aircraft-space.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
04-22-2018, 01:46 AM
I agree with everything you said. About the seniority list...

How do you integrate military pilots into it? It can't be a simple hours conversion. The military has a vastly different operating domain incomparable to civil transportation operations. There are guys that fly at 80,000 ft.+ in astronaut suits, guys that fight in wars, mid air-to-air refueling of heavy aircraft, low-level airdrops, air-to-air combat, bombing missions, aircraft carrier operations, nuclear weapon missions, test pilots, and so on... They fly a lot less "hours" but they do 10 times more because they do things that isn't done in civil Point A to B flying. I've really considered this and talked it out with ALPA big dogz and there's no fair or easy solution. I'm genuinely interested in finding a good way to have some kind of seniority list.... By definition, a seniority starts when you begin civil flying operations, otherwise you have to somehow insert military pilots into the stack.

https://www.walldevil.com/wallpapers/a46/wallpaper-valkyrie-desktop-planes-nasa-bomber-aircraft-space.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Give them a credit. 10 years of seniority in honor of their service. Easy.

Southerner
04-22-2018, 03:53 AM
Give them a credit. 10 years of seniority in honor of their service. Easy.

I disagree. Assuming a national list existed, seniority should start when you get hired at your first airline, just like everyone else. We all choose our path, and they chose the path with free flight training and decent pay while they serve the country. While I applaud and celebrate their service, I do not believe that it should place them ahead of anyone who worked their way into the industry in other ways.

Granted, it's far easier now for civilian guys than it was when most of us came through, but imagine how angry you would be if on day 1 at your regional the military guys could hold captain earning $60,000 a year, and you were a junior reserve in the right seat making $18,000 per year. No way would that fly. Maybe a longevity credit that have them a pay bump? That's fine and has no impact on their fellow pilots. But a seniority bump puts them ahead of the line, which isn't fair.

WhistlePig
04-22-2018, 05:22 AM
It's for legal reasons. That way the opposition cannot say that it's an attempt to organize a job action. In other words, it's clearly labeled as first amendment protected speech. Everything you watch on TV, particularly the "news", is also for "entertainment only". I would also say that I'm not offering legal advice or medical advice.

You are definitely not offering legal advice.

Warhawg01
04-22-2018, 05:40 AM
A national seniority list? Can anyone name a seniority list integration resulting from a merger of just *two* airlines that didn’t result in serious consternation? Heck, go read the Alaska/VA thread right now.

What color is the sky in your utopian fantasy land?

BeatNavy
04-22-2018, 06:43 AM
A national seniority list? Can anyone name a seniority list integration resulting from a merger of just *two* airlines that didn’t result in serious consternation? Heck, go read the Alaska/VA thread right now.

What color is the sky in your utopian fantasy land?

Not debating your point because I agree with it, but a national list has been discussed ad nauseum...there’s just no good way to establish it. The problem is, we are the only industry where we can’t take our experience and longevity with us if we are dissatisfied with our emoloyer, or if our employer goes under, which puts us at a huge disadvantage against management since they can drag out negotiations, keep pay lower knowing we are “stuck” (in the sense that it would cost us too much to give up our seniority and start over). I don’t think queue is the first to bring it up, and I don’t think it’s only his utopian fantasy land.

WhistlePig
04-22-2018, 06:55 AM
Not debating your point because I agree with it, but a national list has been discussed ad nauseum...there’s just no good way to establish it. The problem is, we are the only industry where we can’t take our experience and longevity with us if we are dissatisfied with our emoloyer, or if our employer goes under, which puts us at a huge disadvantage against management since they can drag out negotiations, keep pay lower knowing we are “stuck” (in the sense that it would cost us too much to give up our seniority and start over). I don’t think queue is the first to bring it up, and I don’t think it’s only his utopian fantasy land.

On the other hand, you move up in the system simply by continuing to work. If you do the minimum required on Day 1, you can still do the minimum required on Day 10,000 and be very well compensated. Other professions don't have that benefit. Not by a long shot.

The thing about arbitrary line drawing is, well, it's arbitrary.

MGMTiswatchingU
04-22-2018, 07:09 AM
You are delusional if you think the RLA — a law with its primary goal of not disrupting interstate commerce — can be changed that would allow a union to strike in 31 days.

In your fantasy world, what would prevent a union from demanding $1000 per hour and 25 days off a month and then kicking back and waiting for day 31?

I’m not defending the current years-long process, but dreaming of unicorns and rainbows isn’t going to fix it.

One way that they can spin it too is "31 days of negotiations", meaning if you negotiate for 4 days this month or even this yearrr and you have 27 days left to negotiate. Which technically could still take negotiation 3, 4, 5 years (or as long as they want just like now) before "day 31" occurs. So there would need to be a caveat in there to force company to conduct negotiations atleast 2 days per month, the most they'd delay an agreement is 15 months before a strike. Just a thought.

queue
04-22-2018, 07:56 AM
One way that they can spin it too is "31 days of negotiations", meaning if you negotiate for 4 days this month or even this yearrr and you have 27 days left to negotiate. Which technically could still take negotiation 3, 4, 5 years (or as long as they want just like now) before "day 31" occurs. So there would need to be a caveat in there to force company to conduct negotiations atleast 2 days per month, the most they'd delay an agreement is 15 months before a strike. Just a thought.

True. Legalistic contractual language would be different so as not to allow loopholes. "30 contiguous calendar days originating at the initiation date as filed by the grieving party to include weekdays and weekends but not including federal holidays."




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
04-22-2018, 08:47 AM
I disagree. Assuming a national list existed, seniority should start when you get hired at your first airline, just like everyone else. We all choose our path, and they chose the path with free flight training and decent pay while they serve the country. While I applaud and celebrate their service, I do not believe that it should place them ahead of anyone who worked their way into the industry in other ways.

Granted, it's far easier now for civilian guys than it was when most of us came through, but imagine how angry you would be if on day 1 at your regional the military guys could hold captain earning $60,000 a year, and you were a junior reserve in the right seat making $18,000 per year. No way would that fly. Maybe a longevity credit that have them a pay bump? That's fine and has no impact on their fellow pilots. But a seniority bump puts them ahead of the line, which isn't fair.


Ok, I actually think a national LONGEVITY list would be the best solution. You might have to start over, but it wouldnt be at year 1 pay. You also wouldnt get pushback from the "I got mine, screw you!" crowd.

ALPA has bigger fish to fry, like lithium batteries. (Important, but fight for pay, benefits, and job security FIRST.)

It IS possible to realize ALPA is necesary, while acknowledging its complete failure to tackle the big issues. Since work rules and pay are handled by the local MECs, what exactly should ALPA national be doing? It seems it has forgotten or doesnt care.

queue
04-22-2018, 10:25 AM
ALPA has bigger fish to fry, like lithium batteries.

To me, there's no such thing as bigger fish to fry. There must be a distinction between more important vs. more imperative. Many of these issues are equally important or at least relatively to close to one another. However, issues change how imperative they are from hour to hour.

A large, cash cow, like ALPA, should easily be able to handle multiple projects at one time without degradation in combat effectiveness. I know I could! This is why in the military you have a chain of command with various pyramidal echelons. It works pretty well and I've seen it work wonders from issues such as Hurricane Katrina to the Gulf War. My problem with ALPA is that rather than having people with a bias for action, you mostly have seat fillers who have grown too complacent.

ALPA needs to be run like a military unit: mission objectives, secondaries, rules of engagement, chain of command, flag officers, officers, Air Tasking Order, master battle plan, etc.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/US_Navy_030321-N-4142G-020_Pilots_assigned_to_Carrier_Air_Wing_Two_%28CVW-2%29_listen_to_a_pre-flight_brief_in_one_of_the_squadron_ready_rooms_ab oard_USS_Constellation_%28CV_64%29.jpg

They are not activists nor do they have the strongest of skillsets (e.g. computer skills). I see they *finally* sent an email about not removing FOs from aircraft. Too bad they have crappy arguments that will not be effective in convincing people. Come on ALPA... get your $h!t in a pit, and your ducks in a row.

Teachers' unions are pretty effective at making noise and getting results.

http://stmedia.startribune.com/images/1522693189_10001181+Teacher+Protests+Kentucky.JPG

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Gordie H
04-22-2018, 11:34 PM
“ALPA needs to be run like a military unit: mission objectives, secondaries, rules of engagement, chain of command, flag officers, officers, Air Tasking Order, master battle plan, etc.”



......Information Assurance, SABC, ADLS, OPRs, EPRs, Awards, 4 month deployment, 6 month deployment, 365, PT test, PME, leave denied, reflective belt, self inspection checklist, ORI, TPS reports, no freedom...F!! :p

django
04-23-2018, 01:34 AM
People tend to confuse a an abundance of factual knowledge and excellent typing skills with intelligence and reasoning. Accuracy is not the same as precision, and gathering factual information and stringing them into invalid conclusions convincing is not.

Das Kapital , a masterpiece
Mein Kampf , a diatribe

P-3Bubba
04-23-2018, 05:18 AM
ALPA is incredibly powerful with deep pockets and strong political influence. It chooses not to rock the boat. The $$$ rolls in and the steak dinner stay hot.

B6 is in BIG trouble this summer with no CBA. Checking blueconnect for my release I could see at least 15 flights that where on today’s date when they were supposed to be completed the day prior. Anyone see a cloud in the northeast yesterday? ATC and weather. Must be it.

The pilots consist of what 5% of the labor cost at JetBlue? Yet, the pilot labor contract takes up 90% of the ELT discussion and drama. Why? It’s so pathetic. Good luck moving jets this summer ELT. Your sweet spot brand is about to diarrhea down the T5 window panes.

-Bubs

PasserOGas
04-23-2018, 06:55 AM
ALPA is incredibly powerful with deep pockets and strong political influence. It chooses not to rock the boat. The $$$ rolls in and the steak dinner stay hot.

B6 is in BIG trouble this summer with no CBA. Checking blueconnect for my release I could see at least 15 flights that where on today’s date when they were supposed to be completed the day prior. Anyone see a cloud in the northeast yesterday? ATC and weather. Must be it.

The pilots consist of what 5% of the labor cost at JetBlue? Yet, the pilot labor contract takes up 90% of the ELT discussion and drama. Why? It’s so pathetic. Good luck moving jets this summer ELT. Your sweet spot brand is about to diarrhea down the T5 window panes.

-Bubs

I view the "sweet spot" as more of a hole for me to $hit into.

FUPM



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