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View Full Version : Corp v legacy?


sherpster
04-18-2018, 08:05 AM
Just started at a Legacy. Thinking about leaving for a fortune 100 corp job 15 min from where I live. No commute and an instant 40k yr raise. Am I crazy? Retired military, kids in school still. Commute is a 1 legger to NYC.


BoilerUP
04-18-2018, 08:13 AM
Just started at a Legacy. Thinking about leaving for a fortune 100 corp job 15 min from where I live. No commute and an instant 40k yr raise. Am I crazy? Retired military, kids in school still. Commute is a 1 legger to NYC.

How does Year 2 pay at the legacy compare to the F100 gig?

What about retirement & benefits? Is the corporation historically profitable and in a secure industry, relatively safe from M&A activity? What is the flight department's history?

What kind of seniority advancement/progression are you projected to have at your legacy?

The airline job is almost certain to be more lucrative and secure long-term, but some people are just better suited for bizav and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that...

V1 McFlyerson
04-18-2018, 08:18 AM
Just started at a Legacy. Thinking about leaving for a fortune 100 corp job 15 min from where I live. No commute and an instant 40k yr raise. Am I crazy? Retired military, kids in school still. Commute is a 1 legger to NYC.

I'd sure be tempted. I started in Part 91 corporate, and I loved almost every minute of it. It didn't feel like a grind like this airline stuff does. Obviously you'd be leaving A LOT on the table, financially, but the trade off could be worth it.

I'm in my mid-30's so I'm going to keep chipping away at trying to get to a 1st rate airline. In your shoes? I don't think you'd be crazy at all to consider it.


GogglesPisano
04-18-2018, 08:21 AM
Apologies in advance but .... yes, you're crazy.

The legacy is:
1) A much easier job (you're job is to fly the airplane safely from point A to point B, preferably on time. And maybe wear a hat. You're job is not to "manage" the aircraft long-term. Or clean it. Or come in and fly a desk when you're not flying. Or load bags. No homework. A seniority system negates the necessity of ladder-climbing and office politics.
2) Much better paying.
3) With way more stability and ...
4) Way more variety.

sherpster
04-18-2018, 09:03 AM
The starting salary is the same as yr 3 pay at legacy.

Very stable department (from what I can tell). I am not all that inpressed with airline flying/commuting but maybe that comes with more time. I dont have the corp job yet but i made it past the telephone interview and I have spoken/met with people in the department previously so I think the odds are good.

I agree it is a lot to give up. Slinging bags doesnt faze me one bit. Done similiar VIP transport work for many years prior and enjoyed it. Schedule is the only worryg. On the flip side, this airline gig could become a commuting to reserve nightmare at next downturn....we all know it is coming again.

sherpster
04-18-2018, 09:05 AM
Apologies in advance but .... yes, you're crazy.

The legacy is:
1) A much easier job (you're job is to fly the airplane safely from point A to point B, preferably on time. And maybe wear a hat. You're job is not to "manage" the aircraft long-term. Or clean it. Or come in and fly a desk when you're not flying. Or load bags. No homework. A seniority system negates the necessity of ladder-climbing and office politics.
2) Much better paying.
3) With way more stability and ...
4) Way more variety.

No need to say sorry, all replies welcome. Thanks!

galaxy flyer
04-18-2018, 02:12 PM
Depends on what you want in life. Giggles is right for the most part—money, retirement cash, stability given the present labor market for pilots—a legacy can’t be beat. Corporates will come up with more money, compete on schedules, but the revenue stream isn’t there to match airlines.

That said, I know five pilots, furloughed in the “lost decade” that resigned and stayed in business aviation. DL, UA, and AA. Yes, you’re move would be rare. Crazy, maybe not. Because four of them were my charges, I can give some thoughts. They all have children approaching college or in college, have homes in the expensive Northeast and live local. The 10 minute commute is a factor, being home without the commute is nice. How much money do you need remembering the “check of the month club”? We all found we had enough and more wasn’t going to change our lifestyle as much as the commuting, seniority, relentless schedule grind would. Our department was sized, so last minute emergencies were dealt with easily. We covered each other for all kinds of things, children sick, holidays, deaths of parents. We didn’t clean planes, pros met us on arrival and did so on the road, if needed. Flight attendants handled catering, passengers were known to us. No, TSA BS, customs and immigration were on board the plane. Handlers made all arrangements, world-wide, phones provided. Each plane had a “crew chief” and they were led by a DOM. Scheduled time off eac month, three to four weeks vacation.

Ask questions during any interview.

GF

PotatoChip
04-18-2018, 03:37 PM
Apologies in advance but .... yes, you're crazy.

The legacy is:
1) A much easier job (you're job is to fly the airplane safely from point A to point B, preferably on time. And maybe wear a hat. You're job is not to "manage" the aircraft long-term. Or clean it. Or come in and fly a desk when you're not flying. Or load bags. No homework. A seniority system negates the necessity of ladder-climbing and office politics.
2) Much better paying.
3) With way more stability and ...
4) Way more variety.

Youíre making a lot of assumptions.

GogglesPisano
04-18-2018, 03:44 PM
You’re making a lot of assumptions.

He asked, I answered.

There are always exceptions.

I just flew with a newhire that spent 10 years at IBM and couldn’t be happier than where he is now (at a legacy.)

I don’t see a lot of people (read 0) heading in the other direction — these days.

As always, YMMV.

GogglesPisano
04-18-2018, 03:45 PM
Thanks, Galasky :D

galaxy flyer
04-18-2018, 04:08 PM
IBM was a class act at one time, a bit of a mess the last few years. I hired a pilot away from them, so I have an idea. That’s a real danger at corporates, a lot depends on the Director and how he manages the department and the upper mgt.

Sorry, GOOGLES. :D

GF

Varsity
04-18-2018, 08:54 PM
This is an airline pilot website, so obviously the answers will be skewed that direction.

With that said, not a day goes by where I don't think about my former 91 jet job at a pharma company in the midwest. The CEO let the pilots lead and never questioned what we did. No last minute nonsense, good hotels, spend 22-25 nights a month sleeping in my own bed. I can't remember a single time we stressed about the schedule. If the plane was down or someone missed an airline flight (happened occasionally) it was a simple "Can't do it boss". No questions asked.

If we ever hit a snag a quick call to the CEO's cell got us a check cut to just about anyone for anything we needed.


Coupled with good people in the flight department, it's a dream come true.

Swedish Blender
04-18-2018, 09:08 PM
On the flip side, this airline gig could become a commuting to reserve nightmare at next downturn....we all know it is coming again.

How safe would you be in the corporate gig in the next downturn? Legacies will still have retirements which would probably prohibit a furlough.

ZapBrannigan
04-19-2018, 02:13 AM
How safe would you be in the corporate gig in the next downturn? Legacies will still have retirements which would probably prohibit a furlough.


Are you TRYING to provoke the gods of aviation misfortune?! [emoji35]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sliceback
04-19-2018, 06:39 AM
Are you at AA? You can project your future seniority into different bid statuses and see what that schedule and pay is. Use the tools to find your seniority progression and compare today's 3XP's at your future seniority. In general the flying should be fairly stable going forward. A change of G3 vs G4 seniority should occur as 767's retire and are replaced by 787's. The junior 787 flying will be more senior than the current 767 seniority numbers due to the 20% pay raise(G3 vs G4).

Third year pay is roughly $165K. Fifth year should be in the $185K+ range and possibly up to $220K (?) junior G4 bases?
If you can hold CA in five years you'll be at $225K with a lower probability of $250K. Probably 2(?) yrs to be a lineholder ((2025). As a lineholder $300K+ is very achievable.

You say a RIF is coming. Will the corporate flight department survive the downturn? What percentage do you expect to get furloughed? When? That estimate can be used to compare future relative seniority vs today. If it's 1000 furloughs depending upon your current seniority, and which year you project the furlough to occur, you might have enough seniority to stay on the 'not on reserve' side of the curve.

With 800-900 retirements per year starting in approx. 3 years a small furlough (5%) probably wouldn't be worth it due to the training bubble that it would generate. Fifteen percent furloughs have occurred once in the last 35 years while ten percent furloughs have occurred twice in the last 25 years. Neither occurred while we were retiring 3-4% per year with annual retirement percentages of 6-7% about 4 years away.

Otters
04-19-2018, 07:51 AM
Just started at a Legacy. Thinking about leaving for a fortune 100 corp job 15 min from where I live. No commute and an instant 40k yr raise. Am I crazy? Retired military, kids in school still. Commute is a 1 legger to NYC.


Your not crazy..... just lacking in information. This exact thread comes up about, oh once every 4-5 months. Go research it. Put all the numbers facts from the corporate job on this thread. I bet they would love that. And all the other relevant info: stock options, pension, 401K, vacation, hard days off vs no days off, your military retiremen, how many years left, does wife work, divorced, cost of transgender surgery, etc......

Iíve done both extensively and have posted on this subject. Post all the info on this specific corporate department and youíll get more reasonable advice.

As others have said this is mostly an airline forum, certainly less corporate. Until you give us some hard info on this Corporate Job, I canít even begin to give you relevant advice. And even then, there are so many intangibles

Sliceback
04-19-2018, 08:27 AM
As long as you retain your medical the airline path guarantees you a decade, or longer, of $300K + 16%.

The immediate $40K pay increase will probably be overtaken by the majors pay in the out years.

sherpster
04-19-2018, 09:06 AM
Iím not even hired so I dont have the specifics. The local corp job was a place I was hoping to work for a few years ago but never got past the telephone interview. You guys are right, I dont have all the specifics, when I do, assuming I get an offer, Iíll take a look at it again. Thanks

mainlineAF
04-19-2018, 09:58 AM
A lot depends on your financial situation. Married? Does your husband/wife have a high-paying job? Do you have kids you have to put through college or have they grown up already? No kids? How much time until youíre 65?

If youíre the sole breadwinner and have kids to raise I would stay airline for the stability and option to make more money in the future.

If your significant other has a good job and you donít have kids to raise then thatís the only way Iíd entertain the corporate job.

Good luck

galaxy flyer
04-19-2018, 11:17 AM
Iím not even hired so I dont have the specifics. The local corp job was a place I was hoping to work for a few years ago but never got past the telephone interview. You guys are right, I dont have all the specifics, when I do, assuming I get an offer, Iíll take a look at it again. Thanks

If you interview, donít be hesitant to ask about trip planning, handling, schedule and vacation, pilots per plane (4 is nice, 5 or 6 better, if lots of international), how they handle cleaning and stocking the planes, flight attendants, what hotel chains they use (Marriott seems to be best, but it varies), how the manage training, class of travel to position, in addition to th$ usual questions. The airlines are pretty simple, but every flight department is different. Get a read on how they are to travel with. The department I was in immediately struck me as a enjoyable gigógood people who made trips sail by. It remained so the 12 years I was there. There are plenty of departments like that and plenty that that the pilots canít stand each other.

GF

sherpster
04-19-2018, 11:52 AM
My budy sent me this after asking for his opinion. Funny

He thinks I am nuts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ruYX-KYG5xc

Xems
04-19-2018, 03:01 PM
Two sides to every coin....

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxz2hhSXuY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNxz2hhSXuY")

upontheblue
04-21-2018, 02:10 PM
You said 'retired military.' Retired military pilot? If so, Delta seems especially enamored of military pilots.

GeeWizDriver
04-22-2018, 07:59 AM
Sherp,

Where do I begin?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

I have been Corporate 91 and now Fractional for my entire career. I still fly a fair number of 91 contract trips and keep close tabs on the flying world among the busy corporate scene in my base city and across the country. My better half is a medically retired legacy airline pilot and we have dozens of friends across the airline and corporate aviation world. I’d like to think my opinion on this subject is relatively well-informed.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

Corporate flight departments vaporize on a whim. New CEO, maybe a dip in the stock price, stir in a few activist stockholders crying about the “royal barge” and POOF! there goes your sweet, comfy corporate gig. Maybe the Board of Directors decides to sell the jets and sign on with NetJets. Ever heard of Dresser? Freeport-McMorran? Chesapeake Energy? Now you’re a few years older, out on the street with hat in hand, hoping another gig in your home city opens up so you don’t have to move. Maybe less money, maybe a dick of a boss, maybe crappier equipment...and the airlines won’t call when they see you ditched a legacy once before.

It happens over, and over, and over again. NO department is safe.

Is an airline gig iron clad? No. But given today’s airline demographics and hiring needs, if you have been on property for almost any length of time, if you got furloughed it means there are pitchforks and torches in the streets and this country has bigger problems than anybody’s job and we’re just trying to stay alive.

To me, the lifetime earnings, retirement, job security, schedule manipulation, and more predictable flying of a legacy carrier outweigh the “fun” aspects of corporate flying by a country mile.

I missed the window for an airline gig. Now I have gold handcuffs and not enough pre-retirement runway to make up the first three years of pay differential if I bail. That’s life and I’m trying to make the best of it.

But you hit the timing window on the button and are poised to have a lucrative career at a legacy airline that many of my younger corporate and fractional colleagues would beg, borrow, or steal for.

With all respect, don’t be an idiot.

Cheers

sherpster
04-22-2018, 09:00 AM
Thanks man, thats a great information and I appreciate you taking the time to write it up. I wish I could repay your time somehow via a beer or soda.


Sherp,

Where do I begin?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

I have been Corporate 91 and now Fractional for my entire career. I still fly a fair number of 91 contract trips and keep close tabs on the flying world among the busy corporate scene in my base city and across the country. My better half is a medically retired legacy airline pilot and we have dozens of friends across the airline and corporate aviation world. Iíd like to think my opinion on this subject is relatively well-informed.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

Corporate flight departments vaporize on a whim. New CEO, maybe a dip in the stock price, stir in a few activist stockholders crying about the ďroyal bargeĒ and POOF! there goes your sweet, comfy corporate gig. Maybe the Board of Directors decides to sell the jets and sign on with NetJets. Ever heard of Dresser? Freeport-McMorran? Chesapeake Energy? Now youíre a few years older, out on the street with hat in hand, hoping another gig in your home city opens up so you donít have to move. Maybe less money, maybe a dick of a boss, maybe crappier equipment...and the airlines wonít call when they see you ditched a legacy once before.

It happens over, and over, and over again. NO department is safe.

Is an airline gig iron clad? No. But given todayís airline demographics and hiring needs, if you have been on property for almost any length of time, if you got furloughed it means there are pitchforks and torches in the streets and this country has bigger problems than anybodyís job and weíre just trying to stay alive.

To me, the lifetime earnings, retirement, job security, schedule manipulation, and more predictable flying of a legacy carrier outweigh the ďfunĒ aspects of corporate flying by a country mile.

I missed the window for an airline gig. Now I have gold handcuffs and not enough pre-retirement runway to make up the first three years of pay differential if I bail. Thatís life and Iím trying to make the best of it.

But you hit the timing window on the button and are poised to have a lucrative career at a legacy airline that many of my younger corporate and fractional colleagues would beg, borrow, or steal for.

With all respect, donít be an idiot.

Cheers

Mink
04-22-2018, 09:13 AM
Sherp,

Where do I begin?

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

I have been Corporate 91 and now Fractional for my entire career. I still fly a fair number of 91 contract trips and keep close tabs on the flying world among the busy corporate scene in my base city and across the country. My better half is a medically retired legacy airline pilot and we have dozens of friends across the airline and corporate aviation world. Iíd like to think my opinion on this subject is relatively well-informed.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND?

Corporate flight departments vaporize on a whim. New CEO, maybe a dip in the stock price, stir in a few activist stockholders crying about the ďroyal bargeĒ and POOF! there goes your sweet, comfy corporate gig. Maybe the Board of Directors decides to sell the jets and sign on with NetJets. Ever heard of Dresser? Freeport-McMorran? Chesapeake Energy? Now youíre a few years older, out on the street with hat in hand, hoping another gig in your home city opens up so you donít have to move. Maybe less money, maybe a dick of a boss, maybe crappier equipment...and the airlines wonít call when they see you ditched a legacy once before.

It happens over, and over, and over again. NO department is safe.

Is an airline gig iron clad? No. But given todayís airline demographics and hiring needs, if you have been on property for almost any length of time, if you got furloughed it means there are pitchforks and torches in the streets and this country has bigger problems than anybodyís job and weíre just trying to stay alive.

To me, the lifetime earnings, retirement, job security, schedule manipulation, and more predictable flying of a legacy carrier outweigh the ďfunĒ aspects of corporate flying by a country mile.

I missed the window for an airline gig. Now I have gold handcuffs and not enough pre-retirement runway to make up the first three years of pay differential if I bail. Thatís life and Iím trying to make the best of it.

But you hit the timing window on the button and are poised to have a lucrative career at a legacy airline that many of my younger corporate and fractional colleagues would beg, borrow, or steal for.

With all respect, donít be an idiot.

Cheers

+1

Same sentiments, same situation for me.

I enjoy my Part 91 corp job, but "A-firm" to all of the above.

HwkrPlt
04-22-2018, 12:28 PM
Go to a legacy. A corporate job is one new CEO, or bad quarter, or the wife of the CEO that decides she doesn't like you cause you forgot to stock the right kind of dog cookies away from evaporating. There is a bit more stability at a legacy, and when you get home from a trip, you can flush your cell phone down the toilet and not have to worry about it ringing.

sherpster
04-22-2018, 02:05 PM
Go to a legacy. A corporate job is one new CEO, or bad quarter, or the wife of the CEO that decides she doesn't like you cause you forgot to stock the right kind of dog cookies away from evaporating. There is a bit more stability at a legacy, and when you get home from a trip, you can flush your cell phone down the toilet and not have to worry about it ringing.

Im at a legacy so I guess the verdict is in

Varsity
04-23-2018, 08:56 AM
If you interview, donít be hesitant to ask about trip planning, handling, schedule and vacation, pilots per plane (4 is nice, 5 or 6 better, if lots of international), how they handle cleaning and stocking the planes, flight attendants, what hotel chains they use (Marriott seems to be best, but it varies), how the manage training, class of travel to position, in addition to th$ usual questions. The airlines are pretty simple, but every flight department is different. Get a read on how they are to travel with. The department I was in immediately struck me as a enjoyable gigógood people who made trips sail by. It remained so the 12 years I was there. There are plenty of departments like that and plenty that that the pilots canít stand each other.

GF

Definitely varies.

As far as stability goes, I think the airline pilots are alittle quick to say "mines better".

The airline industry has been historically unstable. TWA pilots not getting the call back until 14 years later might be an extreme example, but it happened. Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff. It's silly to think it can never happen again.

Meanwhile corp flight departments are often tied to 'downturn resistant' industries. We flew ag-pharma sales people into small towns. Even in the worst of times people still need food and drugs. 08' wasn't even a blip on our company radar financially, except for the hundred+ airline pilot apps received.

There are +/-'s to both. The airlines aren't a panacea for every lifestyle.

BoilerUP
04-23-2018, 09:26 AM
Meanwhile corp flight departments are often tied to 'downturn resistant' industries. We flew ag-pharma sales people into small towns. Even in the worst of times people still need food and drugs. 08' wasn't even a blip on our company radar financially, except for the hundred+ airline pilot apps received.

How many flight departments do you know shut down during the Great Recession? How many departments continued operations, but downsized number/type of aircraft or headcount?

Very glad your company weathered the storm so well, but from where I sat at the time (a small 91 operation) bizav was hit WAY harder in 08-09 than airlines were.

I would submit that structural changes to airlines post-9/11 (ie. consolidation via M&A activity) have made them financially more stable than their historical mean, whereas public corporations have become much more sensitive in a 24/7 news and social media society to public and shareholder perception of 'corporate excess'.

GeeWizDriver
04-23-2018, 09:48 AM
How many flight departments do you know shut down during the Great Recession? How many departments continued operations, but downsized number/type of aircraft or headcount?

Very glad your company weathered the storm so well, but from where I sat at the time (a small 91 operation) bizav was hit WAY harder in 08-09 than airlines were.

I would submit that structural changes to airlines post-9/11 (ie. consolidation via M&A activity) have made them financially more stable than their historical mean, whereas public corporations have become much more sensitive in a 24/7 news and social media society to public and shareholder perception of 'corporate excess'.

Boiler speaks the truth.

GeeWizDriver
04-23-2018, 09:51 AM
Thanks man, thats a great information and I appreciate you taking the time to write it up. I wish I could repay your time somehow via a beer or soda.

Just offering my $.02 and worth about that much....

And thank YOU for serving.

Sliceback
04-23-2018, 12:52 PM
I wouldnít compare airlines immediately after 9/11, or pre 9/11, with todayís market. Can Black Swan events happen? Absolutely. Who will fair better, a corporate vs an airline guy? Using post 9/11 furloughs annairline guy at the Big 3 has about 2.5-4 yrs of retirements before furloughs = retirement numbers. And their upgrade to Captain will occur roughly 4 yrs later. The retirement numbers create interesting projections.



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