Airline Pilot Forums

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PR86
04-18-2018, 12:10 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and would like to do it at a passenger airline.

If anyone can pass any info my way about JetBlue, the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86


hilltopflyer
04-18-2018, 12:23 PM
Almost 1200 days into negotiations.... company management sucks.... pay sucks.... need I go on

pilotpayne
04-18-2018, 01:21 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and would like to do it at a passenger airline.

If anyone can pass any info my way about JetBlue, the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86


Well it COULD get a lot better with a CBA and a known direction of the airline (I’m still optimistic I know)

Or

It WILL stay as it is and if that’s the case almost any other major is better for spending the last ten years.

As of right now.


aldonite7667
04-18-2018, 01:41 PM
No crew meals, bad hotels, low per diem, low pay, bad health insurance, poor retirement. But hey, we do it for the culture.

BeatNavy
04-18-2018, 01:41 PM
If you want to work at an airline with the worst future seniority progression in the industry, the worst pay, debatably the worst management, the worst wasters of shareholder money (potato farms and electric paper planes, oh and worthless buybacks that have done nothing for our books), the most expensive domiciles, the worst domestic and international route structure of any major airline, then JetBlue is for you! Take your resume to an airline that will value you and your experience accordingly.

say again
04-18-2018, 01:49 PM
Man, do a little research. It's all over these boards.

I'll bite your troll sandwich...Delta, United, American, SWA, FedEx, UPS would be much better choices with 10 yrs remaining.

PowderFinger
04-18-2018, 02:09 PM
Man, do a little research. It's all over these boards.

I'll bite your troll sandwich...Delta, United, American, SWA, FedEx, UPS would be much better choices with 10 yrs remaining.

Apply at all of them ... Including JB, Spirit, etc.

See what happens ... Even less than 10 years can be a good way to finish a career.

The airlines are a roller coaster and right now JB is not at their high point ... Who knows what is next for any of the airlines.

Good luck.

Bozo the pilot
04-18-2018, 05:27 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and would like to do it at a passenger airline.

If anyone can pass any info my way about JetBlue, the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

Sucks right now and getting worse without a CBA.
If you can only get here- take it, get typed, and leave asap.:)

Gordie H
04-18-2018, 05:48 PM
Agree with Powder above. Re your specific questions:

The hiring: My info might be dated but as far as I know there’s usually two hiring windows a year. The windows last a few weeks or so and you submit an application through the company website. You need to reapply each window (unlike Airline Apps, etc) in order to keep an app on file. It seems your best bet to get a call is to visit a recruiter at a job fair. Or, for you being prior military, go to a company “Vets in Blue” recruiting event. I believe they do the interviews in Orlando now and it’s a one day thing…it was fairly low stress when I went 3 years ago - basically just a face to face interview. But, unfortunately, as I understand now they’ve added in some sort of aptitude test. Once you get the job offer there can be a few months (or longer) wait for a class start date.

The job: Obviously varies quite a bit based on seniority, your airframe, base, etc. but you’ll initially be based in JFK or Boston. I’d say you’d have a good shot at whichever airframe you’d want because of your age (like I did :))…the oldest in the class gets first pick of the drop.

Whichever plane you take, plan on being on reserve for a year…maybe more / maybe less (it’s always a moving target). Reserve, in general, is not good if you commute but not too bad if you live in the local area.

The 190 is basically East coast regional style flying, mostly in the daytime, with two, three or four legs a day being the norm. Trips range from 1 to 5 days (one and five day trips generally go senior). The airbus does more “Major” airline style flying with fewer legs per day, transcons, etc. But as I understand it (I’m a 190 person) you’ll likely get stuck with a lot of redeyes your first couple years.

The big negatives with this place, in my view, and as has been mentioned, are the lack of a contract and few upcoming retirements. Being in a labor dispute (as we are right now) is not the best and nobody knows when we’ll get a contract (could be soon or could be years) or what exactly it’ll look like. Good luck!

GuppyPuppy
04-19-2018, 06:06 AM
Lowest retirement percentage of any major. With 10 years left there are better choices with solid contracts, better pay, work rules, retirement, healthcare, opportunity for advancement, etc...

The only reason that I can see to come here is if you live near Boston. The only other airline with a BOS domicile is AA, and it is rather senior. That is what this company has to offer....BOS.

If you commute or are interested in our other domiciles there are much better choices.

Good luck to you.

Gup

kingair35
04-20-2018, 04:41 AM
If you have 3+ years of seniority and live in base, this place IMHO is pretty descent.

Other than that... avoid

402DRVR
04-20-2018, 09:07 AM
To echo what a few have said. If you can live in base, and if that base really is Boston then its a pretty good place to be. But no doubt it could be, and needs to be a lot better. I'm happy working here as I live near enough to Boston to drive and have some good seniority, 4+ years.

On the bus I avoid most red-eyes and get weekends and holidays off. YMMV.

I think we will eventually get a contract. When is another question. If you are going to commute anyway, or live near NY, then it just makes sense to go to one of the legacies if you can get it.

Papa Bear
04-23-2018, 12:35 PM
If you live in base, excited about having QOL then being an FO at Blow Jet is going to workout.
If you want to be a Airbus captain, love Queens NY and have nothing better to do , then BlowJet is going to work out...
If you don’t mind being paid 70% or less than your peers...man do we have a deal for you.
Come on down..

Down2Wire
04-28-2018, 01:58 PM
Just received an invite for the “on demand video interview”

Anybody know what questions are asked and is this a live video interview with HR and or chief pilots?

Any help you could provide would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

BeatNavy
04-28-2018, 03:07 PM
Just received an invite for the “on demand video interview”

Anybody know what questions are asked and is this a live video interview with HR and or chief pilots?

Any help you could provide would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

1) do you like to sacrifice your pay to work here?
2) do you like culture bucks more than USD?
3) do you like to perform janitorial duties on airplanes?
4) are you inexperienced enough that you aren’t a flight risk for a legacy if they call?
5) do you live in Boston?
6) do you like working more than your peers to subsidize the highest profit margins in the industry (that you and your (lack of) profit sharing won’t see)?
7) are you cool with undisclosed amounts (“millions and millions”) of money getting funneled to JetSuite x, potato farms, and other worthless tech ventures that add no value to the company?
8) are you cool with management that votes in $1.25 billion in stock buybacks to line the pockets of the BoD/C Suite while adding no value to the company, while refusing to pay market rate to you, the pilot?
9) do you look forward to working for the worst operated airline, to include regionals in that metric, in the US? (Instead of investing millions into the operation, its siphoned off for useless garbage like 7/8).
10) why do you want to work for an airline run by interns?

I think that about covers it.

slimothy
04-28-2018, 03:49 PM
Just received an invite for the “on demand video interview”

Anybody know what questions are asked and is this a live video interview with HR and or chief pilots?

Any help you could provide would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

Does this strike you as a “helpful” thread?

PotatoChip
04-28-2018, 03:51 PM
Just received an invite for the “on demand video interview”

Anybody know what questions are asked and is this a live video interview with HR and or chief pilots?

Any help you could provide would be appreciated

Thanks in advance

How would it be a live video with CP and HR if it were "on demand"?
Can you take it whenever you want?

175driver
07-01-2018, 01:34 PM
Hello!!!


At low seniority.

I heard it is quite possible to get a reserve schedule that has all flying compressed into a block (with the mandatory 6th day off). Which allows 12 or more days off in one block... Using drop/swap/trade UTO/PTO as necessary.

I commute from Europe.


Is this correct?


Thanks

hilltopflyer
07-01-2018, 01:36 PM
Hello!!!


At low seniority.

I heard it is quite possible to get a reserve schedule that has all flying compressed into a block (with the mandatory 6th day off). Which allows 12 or more days off in one block... Using drop/swap/trade UTO/PTO as necessary.

I commute from Europe.


Is this correct?


Thanks

Yes it is.

queue
07-01-2018, 06:28 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and would like to do it at a passenger airline.

If anyone can pass any info my way about JetBlue, the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

This is a very defeated pilot group. Many people here such as bozo are spouting false propaganda to make things seem better than they truly are. The truth is that we have a contract proposal on deck that is grossly substandard and will affect your quality of life if passed. Since you are quite an accomplished professional pilot, you should consider an airline where pilots respect themselves and they fight for pay and work rules. May I suggest Delta, where they will love someone of your accomplishment. Many people here are stuck in a regional mindset of begging for sloppy seconds. They are happy to get any table scraps. To them sacrifice means standing in an informational picket line in the freezing cold for a day. Anything harder than that and they give up. Because the pilot group is so defeated, they don't know any better and they won't fight for better pay and better rules. The TA that we have right now was not obtained through actual sacrifice. It is the result of a few low energy meetings. When we had our greatest opportunity to do an informational picket, namely at the shareholder meeting, our people chose to stand down because blue jet gave them some kind of carrot that they bit off on. As a result of their naivety and lack of expertise, we got a TA that is not leading in anyway whatsoever and trails everyone. This means that you're going to be working harder to make the same amount as your equals at other respectable airlines. And in order for you to even begin to approach the compensation of other airlines, you're going to trade for a lot of time that you would've had at home. As a military guy and contract guy, you spent a lot of time away from home and the last thing you want is to be an airline where you're going to be spending a lot of time away from home also but not making very much. There's a few vocal guys here who seem to defend the TA because they have special circumstances such as being staff pilots, live in base, or have high seniority.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-01-2018, 06:38 PM
Yes it is.

Currently you have 18 days of reserve duty. If you're a commuter, remember you might have to come in the day early or leave a day late (they can give you a reserve assignment on the last day that will make you stay New York or wherever an extra day). This is particularly true because they consistently release the reserve schedule late leaving you very little commuting capability after it comes out, forcing you to come in a day early just in case. Also, while on reserve your own tap starting at 0200L, depending on how you bid and what you get. Supposedly there is long call reserve but, you can't ever count on it since it is rare and they can switch you back to Short call. While it is theoretically possible to get 12 days off in a row, it certainly is not easy. Sure you can try to take PTO or UTO or call out sick but those are special circumstances and you can't count on any of that. The TA does not appreciably improve the situation.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Gearswinger
07-01-2018, 07:24 PM
Hello!!!


At low seniority.

I heard it is quite possible to get a reserve schedule that has all flying compressed into a block (with the mandatory 6th day off). Which allows 12 or more days off in one block... Using drop/swap/trade UTO/PTO as necessary.

I commute from Europe.


Is this correct?


Thanks

in our current system you cannot have less than 2 days off in a row on reserve. You can get 6 on, 2 off, 6 on etc. I usually have at least 1 block of 7-8 days off a month without trying.

DontCallMeCindy
07-01-2018, 08:01 PM
Hello!!!


At low seniority.

I heard it is quite possible to get a reserve schedule that has all flying compressed into a block (with the mandatory 6th day off). Which allows 12 or more days off in one block... Using drop/swap/trade UTO/PTO as necessary.

I commute from Europe.


Is this correct?


Thanks

If this contract passes, you’ll be able to bid up to 18 on in a row.

Once your seniority can hold it, a reserve should be able to bid 2 weeks on/2 weeks off or 1 month on/1 month off by bidding your days right month-to-month.

This is a solid QOL provision for ppl who want to live as an expat in Europe or Brazil or wherever else, in order to leverage currency differences, but you won’t hear about it on here bc all ppl are doing is getting wrapped around the axle over dystopian codesharing fantasies that our existing rules don’t prevent at all.

Mattio
07-02-2018, 12:54 PM
If this contract passes, you’ll be able to bid up to 18 on in a row.

Once your seniority can hold it, a reserve should be able to bid 2 weeks on/2 weeks off or 1 month on/1 month off by bidding your days right month-to-month.

This is a solid QOL provision for ppl who want to live as an expat in Europe or Brazil or wherever else, in order to leverage currency differences, but you won’t hear about it on here bc all ppl are doing is getting wrapped around the axle over dystopian codesharing fantasies that our existing rules don’t prevent at all.

Maybe the reason you don't hear about it at all is because there aren't many expats and not many people can get away with being away from home for that long. Add to that the fact that they can pretty much put you in whatever SCL silo they want so it could be a Saturday and you have 14 days left of rsv and they put you in an early silo while all the 3 day guys are in a later silo. When that early 3-day trip pops in, you get it. Kind of like what they frequently do right now with guys on 5 or 6 day blocks. At least if you are on a 3-6 day block of reserve days, you have a good chance of having some guys junior to you who are also on the same amount of days. If you're on a 22 day block you're probably on your own and they can put you in whatever silo/start time they want.

CaptCoolHand
07-02-2018, 02:15 PM
Maybe the reason you don't hear about it at all is because there aren't many expats and not many people can get away with being away from home for that long. Add to that the fact that they can pretty much put you in whatever SCL silo they want so it could be a Saturday and you have 14 days left of rsv and they put you in an early silo while all the 3 day guys are in a later silo. When that early 3-day trip pops in, you get it. Kind of like what they frequently do right now with guys on 5 or 6 day blocks. At least if you are on a 3-6 day block of reserve days, you have a good chance of having some guys junior to you who are also on the same amount of days. If you're on a 22 day block you're probably on your own and they can put you in whatever silo/start time they want.

You can't do 22 days. 18. and only if you do it to yourself.

Mattio
07-02-2018, 02:28 PM
I thought you could do 18 days at the end of one month and 18 at the beginning of the next. Regardless, it's a moot point. Change where I said "22 days" to "13 days" and the argument remains the same.

Mattio
07-02-2018, 02:34 PM
I know it's only if you do it to yourself but I was responding to the poster who claimed not enough people were raving about this schedule option.

queue
07-03-2018, 12:27 PM
If this contract passes, you’ll be able to bid up to 18 on in a row.

Once your seniority can hold it, a reserve should be able to bid 2 weeks on/2 weeks off or 1 month on/1 month off by bidding your days right month-to-month.

This is a solid QOL provision for ppl who want to live as an expat in Europe or Brazil or wherever else, in order to leverage currency differences, but you won’t hear about it on here bc all ppl are doing is getting wrapped around the axle over dystopian codesharing fantasies that our existing rules don’t prevent at all.


What data leads you to believe anyone except the top 1% can get 18 days in a row? We don't know how they intend to reprogram trips to lower cost. Many existing trips will no longer make economic sense (e.g. 10 hr 3 days). The TA does not explicitly promise any bidding results. I'd be careful giving the TA credit for allowing to bid X,Y,Z.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
07-03-2018, 12:30 PM
Maybe the reason you don't hear about it at all is because there aren't many expats and not many people can get away with being away from home for that long. Add to that the fact that they can pretty much put you in whatever SCL silo they want so it could be a Saturday and you have 14 days left of rsv and they put you in an early silo while all the 3 day guys are in a later silo. When that early 3-day trip pops in, you get it. Kind of like what they frequently do right now with guys on 5 or 6 day blocks. At least if you are on a 3-6 day block of reserve days, you have a good chance of having some guys junior to you who are also on the same amount of days. If you're on a 22 day block you're probably on your own and they can put you in whatever silo/start time they want.

You are wrong trips before 3AM goes to LCR first go to a roadshow....PLEASE.

queue
07-03-2018, 12:46 PM
You are wrong relay before 3AM goes to LCR go to a roadshow....PLEASE.


Yes, go to a roadshow and let them try to convince you through facts. Don't let them speculate! Let's see how far they get without fear-mongering and speculation. Ask them why they allowed the Dependability Policy to be made part of the contract.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Mattio
07-03-2018, 09:17 PM
You are wrong trips before 3AM goes to LCR first go to a roadshow....PLEASE.

I'm talking about SAME DAY ASSIGNMENTS not NEXT DAY ASSIGNMENTS. Trips drop in at short notice every day. Like I said, I have the roadshow covered. You can't spell "assumption" without "ass".

nuball5
07-04-2018, 05:23 AM
Maybe the reason you don't hear about it at all is because there aren't many expats and not many people can get away with being away from home for that long. Add to that the fact that they can pretty much put you in whatever SCL silo they want so it could be a Saturday and you have 14 days left of rsv and they put you in an early silo while all the 3 day guys are in a later silo. When that early 3-day trip pops in, you get it. Kind of like what they frequently do right now with guys on 5 or 6 day blocks. At least if you are on a 3-6 day block of reserve days, you have a good chance of having some guys junior to you who are also on the same amount of days. If you're on a 22 day block you're probably on your own and they can put you in whatever silo/start time they want.


If it's his/her first day of reserve they can't just put you in the early Silo under the TA, unless waived on Flica. Still probably not good enough if you're commuting overseas I would imagine.

symbian simian
07-04-2018, 09:02 AM
Yes, go to a roadshow and let them try to convince you through facts. Don't let them speculate! Let's see how far they get without fear-mongering and speculation. Ask them why they allowed the Dependability Policy to be made part of the contract.




Mostly I don't agree with you and/or find you annoying, BUT, IMHO/FWIW/IDWH: Dependability Policy has no place in a contract, and it is puzzling ALPA would have allowed something VERY non industry standard into the AIP. I read a quote of your commute policy and whatever goes wrong, it is up to scheduling to decide (if) it's the pilot's fault. Very weak....

Mattio
07-04-2018, 09:18 AM
If it's his/her first day of reserve they can't just put you in the early Silo under the TA, unless waived on Flica. Still probably not good enough if you're commuting overseas I would imagine.

Right, but you quoted me and I wasn't speaking about your first day of reserve. "♪There's misdirection in the air... ♪♪♪" I feel like that should be a song and, perhaps, the anthem of APC.

Bozo the pilot
07-04-2018, 09:20 AM
Mostly I don't agree with you and/or find you annoying, BUT, IMHO/FWIW/IDWH: Dependability Policy has no place in a contract, and it is puzzling ALPA would have allowed something VERY non industry standard into the AIP. I read a quote of your commute policy and whatever goes wrong, it is up to scheduling to decide (if) it's the pilot's fault. Very weak....

Where is the dependability policy in the TA? I honestly couldnt find it.
Are you talking about the Commuter Policy, Section 18?

PasserOGas
07-04-2018, 09:36 AM
Where is the dependability policy in the TA? I honestly couldnt find it.
Are you talking about the Commuter Policy, Section 18?

It is referenced as a catch-all to nullify pretty much the entire commuter policy.

nuball5
07-04-2018, 10:46 AM
Right, but you quoted me and I wasn't speaking about your first day of reserve. "♪There's misdirection in the air... ♪♪♪" I feel like that should be a song and, perhaps, the anthem of APC.

Oh please! Yes you were. You think a commuter cares about being in the early Silo in the middle of their sequence? Tell me how that effects their time away from home?

The gripe you have about the early 3-day trips is just how reserve works obviously.

Bozo the pilot
07-04-2018, 12:46 PM
It is referenced as a catch-all to nullify pretty much the entire commuter policy.

Where- Section /paragraph?
Im not doubting, I just want to read it for myself .

queue
07-04-2018, 01:26 PM
Mostly I don't agree with you and/or find you annoying, BUT, IMHO/FWIW/IDWH: Dependability Policy has no place in a contract, and it is puzzling ALPA would have allowed something VERY non industry standard into the AIP. I read a quote of your commute policy and whatever goes wrong, it is up to scheduling to decide (if) it's the pilot's fault. Very weak....


They allowed it because (1) this defeated pilot group failed to keep B6ALPA accountable to the mission, (2) they sold you out.



If you vote yes, you will further be part of the problem. That's just the truth. If you want to work within the process, then it gives you the chance to Vote NO and to make ALPA work for your 1.9%+ to get you a better TA 2.0.




The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-04-2018, 01:50 PM
Where- Section /paragraph?
Im not doubting, I just want to read it for myself .


Firstly, everyone shall note that Bozo and his gang has been unconditionally supporting this substandard TA even though he doesn't even read the TA!



Second,The TA outsources authority to the Dependability Policy on Page 102 (section B). Furthermore, in that entire section, BJ is allowed to determine what is a "consideration" in commuting. For example, if you had 2 flights but you couldn't make it, BJ could say there were gusts included in the TAF and that would slow down JFK operations, and it was your fault if both your flights didn't make it. They can always say that you should have come in 1 day before, 2 days before, 3 days before, etc.... It doesn't just draw a line at 2 OAL flights and 1 BJ flight. It leaves a lot of rope they can use to hang you. It's there in black and white for lawyers like Joanna to screw you with.


Third, the Dependability Policy is in the FOM, Appendix D-1. I turn particular attention to the list of things that go against your "dependability" (hint: almost everything).



Lastly, remember I said months ago to beware of a contract that outsources language and gives authority to policies. This is precisely what I was concerned about. They can rewrite the FOM whenever they want. The contract has no real hard lines drawn in regards to commuting... it's actually WORSE than what is in place now since we have no contract in place at the moment. When the contract gets voted in, it legally acknowledges the authority of the Dependability Policy (bad). We cannot allow open-ended contracts that let BJ do whatever they want. The whole purpose of a contract is to draw the lines, then color inside of them. Well, this has no lines.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-04-2018, 02:00 PM
Also, the use of the phrase "mutually agreeable" is suspicious.



What it doesn't say is that "the pilot is under no obligation to mutually agree to anything an no consequence shall be applied to the pilot for not reaching an agreement". Right now they can read mutually agreeable and attach strings to the situation. For example, they can give you 5 pairings that you agree to, or else they will assign you to one, then give you the option to back out of it using PTO. The strict letter of the contract says mutually agreeable but doesn't say they CAN'T put pressure on you to mutually agree.



BJ already does this in other places. For example, if you don't extend the extra 2 hours, you are FORCED to file a Fatigue Report OR ELSE you write a report detailing why you didn't extend (IRR I think). Since you didn't file a Fatigue Report (which cannot have retribution), you are alternatively filing a report which CAN have retribution. So they took an FAA rule, then attached negative consequences to exercising Option B.


This contract must have language that disallows them from attaching any consequences to Option B. Overall this contract is very open ended and doesn't stop BJ from retribution or persuasion if a pilot chooses Option B,C,D, etc...





The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Mattio
07-04-2018, 02:37 PM
Right, but you quoted me and I wasn't speaking about your first day of reserve. "♪There's misdirection in the air... ♪♪♪" I feel like that should be a song and, perhaps, the anthem of APC.
Oh please! Yes you were. You think a commuter cares about being in the early Silo in the middle of their sequence? Tell me how that effects their time away from home?

The gripe you have about the early 3-day trips is just how reserve works obviously.

I'm pretty sure I know what I was talking about... lol You start accusing me of trying to change tack when I haven't. I just have to laugh (and probably ignore you from this point on because you are clearly not worth responding to.) Of course I'm complaining about how reserve works! You got that part right! There's not nearly enough language to control how the silo assignments work and the language that exists punishes seniority in many cases!

Some commuters might not like to get abused for a dozen days straight... Some of them actually like exploring their base city, have friends nearby, or have a nice pad. That's why I go back to my original point, it's not as attractive an option to have the long blocks of reserve days as DontCallMeCindy thinks it is. When he/she questions why more people aren't raving about it, maybe the proof is in the pudding?

symbian simian
07-04-2018, 02:38 PM
Where is the dependability policy in the TA? I honestly couldnt find it.
Are you talking about the Commuter Policy, Section 18?


This is a copy paste from what I assume is JB AIP commute policy:

Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.


B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilot’s overall dependability.


For reference, here is NK:

Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.


Aside from the obvious difference: I don't have to take into account that I actually have to walk from one terminal to another, as long as I list for two flights that arrive before check-in at my base, I am ALWAYS covered, there is the the "D" word at the end of section B.

symbian simian
07-04-2018, 02:43 PM
They allowed it because (1) this defeated pilot group failed to keep B6ALPA accountable to the mission, (2) they sold you out.



If you vote yes, you will further be part of the problem. That's just the truth. If you want to work within the process, then it gives you the chance to Vote NO and to make ALPA work for your 1.9%+ to get you a better TA 2.0.



Just to make sure:
I don't vote, i'm at NK
IDWH = I Don't Work Here

queue
07-04-2018, 03:06 PM
Just to make sure:
I don't vote, i'm at NK
IDWH = I Don't Work Here


My mistake for thinking you were B6.


I hope you guys keep fighting. What's good for you is good for the industry. Our employers keep putting us in artificial tiers which act as fake glass ceilings. There's no reason why one Airbus pilot shouldn't make the same from one airline to another. It's our fault as pilots for allowing the industry to treat us like expendable, highly replaceable assets.



The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
07-04-2018, 05:52 PM
This is a copy paste from what I assume is JB AIP commute policy:

Pilots utilizing OAL to commute:
a. A commuting Pilot not reporting on time for required duty must be able to
verify he was present and listed (a digital record of a CASS listing
satisfies this requirement) on two (2) consecutive flights and both were
scheduled to arrive in sufficient time to allow him to report on time (a
commute with two (2) or more legs is considered one (1) flight for the
purpose of this Section).
b. Being rolled over from one flight to the next on the same airline satisfies
this requirement.
c. Adequate time between different flights that depart from different ends of
the same airport must be taken into consideration by the Pilot.
d. Additional travel time should be taken into consideration by the Pilot on
days with adverse weather conditions.
e. Travel time between arrival terminals must be taken into consideration by
the Pilot.


B. Commuting Strategy
A commuting Pilot who complies with the requirements of this Section shall not be
subject to discipline based on missed commute unless there is evidence that the mis-
commutes are the result of inadequate planning by the Pilot. A Chief Pilot may discuss
patterns of commuting problems with the Pilot in an effort to resolve such issues by
identifying the source of the problem and assisting in developing alternative commuting
strategies. Repeated mis-commutes may be considered in evaluations of a commuting
Pilot’s overall dependability.


For reference, here is NK:

Commuter Policy
1. A pilot commuting to duty shall plan for a minimum of two separate flights that
will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time. If the first flight is
oversold, delayed, or canceled, or if the pilot is denied a jumpseat or boarding for
any reason, he shall notify Crew Scheduling as soon as practical.
2. Crew Scheduling, at its discretion, shall take one of the following actions:
a. Purchase a ticket for the pilot on the next available flight.
b. Advise the pilot to attempt to board the second flight through normal
means (e.g., jumpseat, nonrev travel, or OA passes).
3. If for any reason, a pilot is denied boarding on the second planned commuter
flight, he shall immediately notify Crew Scheduling, and Crew Scheduling shall
assign one of the following options:
a. Assign the pilot an open trip pairing, in consideration of the remaining
commuter flights available, and any required rest and duty limitations, so
that a pilot will arrive at his domicile in advance of his normal report time
for the newly assigned trip.
b. Assign the pilot to reserve duty for no more than the same number of
calendar days of his original missed trip pairing (e.g., a pilot who misses
a scheduled trip pairing of three calendar days may be assigned to no
more than three calendar reserve duty days).
c. Release the pilot from all duty in a non-pay status for the missed trip
pairing (i.e., deduct the pay credit for the missed trip pairing from his
pay).
4. A pilot who keeps accurate records of his scheduled commuter flights and
otherwise complies with the provisions of this commuter policy shall not be
subject to discipline for missing trip pairings due to denied boarding.
5. A pilot may use the commuter policy as necessary with no limitations.


Aside from the obvious difference: I don't have to take into account that I actually have to walk from one terminal to another, as long as I list for two flights that arrive before check-in at my base, I am ALWAYS covered, there is the the "D" word at the end of section B.

Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads. ;)

nuball5
07-04-2018, 06:33 PM
I'm pretty sure I know what I was talking about... lol You start accusing me of trying to change tack when I haven't. I just have to laugh (and probably ignore you from this point on because you are clearly not worth responding to.) Of course I'm complaining about how reserve works! You got that part right! There's not nearly enough language to control how the silo assignments work and the language that exists punishes seniority in many cases!

Some commuters might not like to get abused for a dozen days straight... Some of them actually like exploring their base city, have friends nearby, or have a nice pad. That's why I go back to my original point, it's not as attractive an option to have the long blocks of reserve days as DontCallMeCindy thinks it is. When he/she questions why more people aren't raving about it, maybe the proof is in the pudding?

Well next time make yourself more clear. It wasn't an accusation, more of a discussion...but you took it there. Feel free to ignore me.....couldn't care less.

PasserOGas
07-04-2018, 07:42 PM
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads. ;)

Are you high?! The Commuter Policy (or lack of one due to the last sentence in the TA) is not an impactful part of the TA?!

You realize half our pilots commute right? Why oh why are you defending this turd?

queue
07-04-2018, 07:50 PM
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads. ;)


Are you back at your chemical dependency again Bozo?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dogpilot
07-04-2018, 08:46 PM
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads. ;)
You are pushing the sell hard, what is in it for you? Please don’t say a great contract, my buddy shared and it is leaky. Seriously bj’s all around from ALPA or what, because you are putting in work son!

symbian simian
07-04-2018, 09:02 PM
Well at least you found the gnat sh!t in all that pepper.
Its not an impactful part of the TA, but I appreciate the effort SS.
Now best of luck with the Spirit lifestyle threads. ;)

Like I said, I have no vote in this thing. I was a Yes vote at NK, so not a hardcore NO guy. Before NK I worked for a very at will company that went bust just around the time the union got voted in. I have friends and family who commute, I have commuted for the last two decades, so maybe I'm biased. I do believe half of the jb pilots commute, so I think calling this a non impact item is a bit short sighted.

BeatNavy
07-04-2018, 09:08 PM
Like I said, I have no vote in this thing. I was a Yes vote at NK, so not a hardcore NO guy. Before NK I worked for a very at will company that went bust just around the time the union got voted in. I have friends and family who commute, I have commuted for the last two decades, so maybe I'm biased. I do believe half of the jb pilots commute, so I think calling this a non impact item is a bit short sighted.

For such a commuter heavy airline and with such a low value TA for monetary items, I would have thought the NC would have demanded, and the company would have agreed to a much better commuter policy, and done away with the dependability nonsense. Nothing surprises me here anymore though.

Bozo the pilot
07-05-2018, 06:28 AM
You are pushing the sell hard, what is in it for you? Please don’t say a great contract, my buddy shared and it is leaky. Seriously bj’s all around from ALPA or what, because you are putting in work son!

Thanks for the pat on the back Dog. Its not so much that I love the TA, I just like to separate emotion from fact and get all perspectives.

The NO guys have some valid points that I hope they ask the NC/MEC, but when the ad hominem attacks, that have come from mostly the NO voters continue, this becomes more fun.
How bout this Dog, since you are completely "objective":rolleyes:
List your yays and nays without characterizing others' positions or using conjecture and accusation. If you want, pm me, but few have the stones for that right Doggy?
Peace
Bz

benzoate
07-05-2018, 06:45 AM
If you are looking for clarification on a section then the road shows are a must. Aside from that the NC or MEC wont be able to provide pilots the answers they are looking for.

Bozo the pilot
07-05-2018, 07:19 AM
If you are looking for clarification on a section then the road shows are a must. Aside from that the NC or MEC wont be able to provide pilots the answers they are looking for.

Thats what I meant ben. I should have clarified.

queue
07-05-2018, 07:56 AM
I just like to separate emotion from fact and get all perspectives.

No, you just claim the high ground all the time. It's your marketing strategy to attempt to give your viewpoint legitimacy. If you're not emotional, why would you need to block people who disagree with you? You couldn't win with logic or reason, you couldn't win by personal attacks, so you block people now. Personally, I like it better this way because I can talk through you, but it shows who you really are.

The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
07-05-2018, 07:59 AM
If you are looking for clarification on a section then the road shows are a must. Aside from that the NC or MEC wont be able to provide pilots the answers they are looking for.


But be aware that the roadshow nor any promises from people giving speeches will change the legal language. If you graduated high school, you have all the tools you need to read the language. The words matter. If it's not written precisely, then it doesn't exist. Remember that BJ pushes everything to the legal limit. TA 1.0 contains many legal loopholes that I guarantee you will be exploited. Look at the way it legitimizes the Dependability Policy.. it's worse WITH the TA than without it because it now becomes contractual.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.



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