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View Full Version : Cargo job/lifestyle questions


PR86
04-18-2018, 12:12 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and am looking at different options. Ideally I think I'd like to go passenger, but cargo is looking more and more interesting as I investigate my options

If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86


No Land 3
04-18-2018, 07:56 PM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and am looking at different options. Ideally I think I'd like to go passenger, but cargo is looking more and more interesting as I investigate my options

If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

With only ten years left Kalitta may be a good fit for you. Others have better retirement but thatís not really applicable to you. If you like people and providing customer service, do passengers. If you hate people and their BS, fly cargo.

Stratocruzr
04-18-2018, 08:01 PM
With your experience i wouldnt even consider Atlas or Kallita.
Atlas youíll get abused with no pay, while Kallita may offer more pay but your still going to be abused under the poor work rule contracts.

Long duty days at Kallita = believe they have a max duty day of 30 hours? I might be confusing with Southern Air.

No line guarantees. Meaning. A scheduler can take your 80 hour awarded line for the month and wipe it out to min credit of 62 all while being on the road for 17 days (Atlas).

The big problem with atlas and I would imagine Kallita too is senority at these carriers doesnít help make the job easier as you get older. Constant shuffling of your pattern, days on offf, bouncing all over the world (multiple time zones) from day to day with these carriers, the job will be as hard day 1 as day 359 turning 65.
Something like UPS, OR FEDEX, your senority will help you hold lines that would be easier as you get older, more time offf, better patterns for you personally YOU can choose. Not at the whim of half as scheduling operation.

Iíve been flying cargo for over 20 years. I love it waaaaaay better then pax. Hands down not even close.

Apply, hit the job fairs, get recommendations. Youíll get a call from the big boys on the block.
Atlas you may be called and you may get the bait and switch to join Southern Air instead. Really bad move.

Itís a frustrating process trying to get hired at a major but it will be worth the wait vs being abused.


No Land 3
04-18-2018, 08:20 PM
With your experience i wouldnt even consider Atlas or Kallita.
Atlas youíll get abused with no pay, while Kallita may offer more pay but your still going to be abused under the poor work rule contracts.

Long duty days at Kallita = believe they have a max duty day of 30 hours? I might be confusing with Southern Air.

No line guarantees. Meaning. A scheduler can take your 80 hour awarded line for the month and wipe it out to min credit of 62 all while being on the road for 17 days (Atlas).

The big problem with atlas and I would imagine Kallita too is senority at these carriers doesnít help make the job easier as you get older. Constant shuffling of your pattern, days on offf, bouncing all over the world (multiple time zones) from day to day with these carriers, the job will be as hard day 1 as day 359 turning 65.
Something like UPS, OR FEDEX, your senority will help you hold lines that would be easier as you get older, more time offf, better patterns for you personally YOU can choose. Not at the whim of half as scheduling operation.

Iíve been flying cargo for over 20 years. I love it waaaaaay better then pax. Hands down not even close.

Apply, hit the job fairs, get recommendations. Youíll get a call from the big boys on the block.
Atlas you may be called and you may get the bait and switch to join Southern Air instead. Really bad move.

Itís a frustrating process trying to get hired at a major but it will be worth the wait vs being abused.

Please do not speak for Kalitta. Most Atlas pilots cannot wrap their heads around the fact that we are completely different operation from them.

useless
04-18-2018, 09:09 PM
Iíll speak for Kalitta and Atlas. Try like hell to get on with FedEx or UPS. Even with 10 years left youíll be much farther ahead financially and with respect to quality of life.

Pax... meh. Good jobs and quality of life but all those people tho.

ACMI last resort.

No Land 3
04-18-2018, 09:22 PM
Iíll speak for Kalitta and Atlas. Try like hell to get on with FedEx or UPS. Even with 10 years left youíll be much farther ahead financially and with respect to quality of life.

Pax... meh. Good jobs and quality of life but all those people tho.

ACMI last resort.
By all means if you can get on with Fed Ex, but Kalitta is good too. You will make six from the start on the 747.

nitefr8dog
04-19-2018, 04:38 AM
By all means if you can get on with Fed Ex, but Kalitta is good too. You will make six from the start on the 747.
With no retirement....UPS or Federal really the only option. Stay away from all ACMI carriers.

vroll1800
04-19-2018, 08:32 AM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and am looking at different options. Ideally I think I'd like to go passenger, but cargo is looking more and more interesting as I investigate my options

If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

Is that you, Lugar ?

Globemaster2827
04-19-2018, 09:45 AM
With only ten years left Kalitta may be a good fit for you. Others have better retirement but that’s not really applicable to you. If you like people and providing customer service, do passengers. If you hate people and their BS, fly cargo.

How is retirement "not really applicable"? Is he dying the day he turns 65 of a massive stroke?

Don't get me wrong I'd take a job at K4 in his situation but I'd leave for FedEx or UPS the second they offered in his situation. At UPS 10 years would equal a $40,000 a year pension plus whatever the 12% Direct Contribution is worth. Plus far more pay and much better work rules.

Take a job at K4, Spirit, Omni, or ATI and then see what happens...

No Land 3
04-19-2018, 12:20 PM
How is retirement "not really applicable"? Is he dying the day he turns 65 of a massive stroke?

Don't get me wrong I'd take a job at K4 in his situation but I'd leave for FedEx or UPS the second they offered in his situation. At UPS 10 years would equal a $40,000 a year pension plus whatever the 12% Direct Contribution is worth. Plus far more pay and much better work rules.

Take a job at K4, Spirit, Omni, or ATI and then see what happens...
Hmm, good point. He should already be collecting a decent pension, no?

Globemaster2827
04-19-2018, 12:54 PM
Hmm, good point. He should already be collecting a decent pension, no?

So? A military pension isn't $1 million a year for life. IF he's getting an active duty one it's maybe half what his pay was when he retired. In retirement at 65 that may be the current equivalent of $3,000 a month. That isn't enough to retire on given what our life styles are. The notion that retirements don't matter for retired military guys/gals is silly.

What I get from the military in retirement is irrelevant. Which airline that I choose to work for had better have a damn good retirement program or my Apps will be up to date. ACMI carriers are losing younger candidates (military or not) primarily because of work rules and retirement. A rate may get me in the door but it certainly won't retain me when I can have the rate somewhere else plus an actual retirement with quality of life. Kalitta is ahead of Atlas but still woefully behind what it'd take to retain me....

Also, I'll throw this out there too. I factor $0 into my retirement planning from the military and I've got 21.5 years in. That's because - like any pension - it can be taken away from you at any time.

gollum
04-19-2018, 09:03 PM
Also, I'll throw this out there too. I factor $0 into my retirement planning from the military and I've got 21.5 years in. That's because - like any pension - it can be taken away from you at any time.

So by this line of thinking, the $40k UPS pension should also be figured in as $0 as it too (and more likely than a mil retirement ) can be taken away at any time. How many airline guys lost their pensions as at some point? How many military?

ocskyguy
04-19-2018, 09:20 PM
So by this line of thinking, the $40k UPS pension should also be figured in as $0 as it too (and more likely than a mil retirement ) can be taken away at any time. How many airline guys lost their pensions as at some point? How many military?

Okay. Letís look at the math. UPS or FedEx, never gonna make captain with ten years to go. So...

Retirement is better at brown or purple. But, if you are chucking $20k plus into a 401 for 10 years, with a $10k match, plus a low growth factor of around 4%, you got around $400k. And you get to factor in a waaayy shorter path to upgrade with the potential to crack $250 plus each year.

The big boys are good for young pilots. But, places like K4 make more sense for the 40+ crowd.

gollum
04-19-2018, 09:24 PM
while Kallita may offer more pay but your still going to be abused under the poor work rule contracts.

At Kalitta, we actually have pretty good work rules and a Chief Pilot who actually will step in and help you enforce those rules. No junior manning, no hold outs beyond your 16 scheduled days, no jumpseating to/from work or imputed income (increased taxable income) from company purchased tickets and most importantly, no crashpads.

Long duty days at Kallita = believe they have a max duty day of 30 hours? I might be confusing with Southern Air.

Kalittaís max double crew day is 24 hours followed by 22 hours of rest, so you are either thinking of someone else or just wrong. The 2-pilot (14 hours) and 3-pilot (17 hours) duty days are also pretty tolerable.

No line guarantees. Meaning. A scheduler can take your 80 hour awarded line for the month and wipe it out to min credit of 62 all while being on the road for 17 days (Atlas).

Kalitta has line guarantees. sorry that ATLAS doesnít.

The big problem with atlas and I would imagine Kallita too is senority at these carriers doesnít help make the job easier as you get older. Constant shuffling of your pattern, days on offf, bouncing all over the world (multiple time zones) from day to day with these carriers, the job will be as hard day 1 as day 359 turning 65.

While seniority doesnít help you get more days off it does help with getting the days you want off and getting those 85-90 hour lines. Me personally, I like knowing I am on the road for my 16 work days and then I am home for two weeks and not having to make multiple commutes to/from work eating into my time off. I guess itís a different story if you live in/near base with a major but I like where I live and donít want to move.


My point here: itís all well and good that life at ATLAS is pretty poor right now and we sympathize with you, but when you try and dissuade someone from for a company, how about you stick to speaking for your own company and not a place you donít work for.

When I first applied here I considered it a stepping stone (and a really good one) but since getting hired I have stopped updating my apps other places. Itís a great culture on the line and great people to fly with.

Stratocruzr
04-19-2018, 09:26 PM
Please do not speak for Kalitta. Most Atlas pilots cannot wrap their heads around the fact that we are completely different operation from them.

How long is that duty day??

gollum
04-19-2018, 09:29 PM
How long is that duty day??

As stated above:

Kalittaís max double crew day is 24 hours followed by 22 hours of rest (and good couple of naps along the way). The 2-pilot (14 hours) and 3-pilot (17 hours) duty days are also pretty tolerable.

Stratocruzr
04-19-2018, 09:34 PM
As stated above:

Kalittaís max double crew day is 24 hours followed by 22 hours of rest (and good couple of naps along the way). The 2-pilot (14 hours) and 3-pilot (17 hours) duty days are also pretty tolerable.

Catching up sorry donít live in these boards.

Still too long. And I did clarify in my original statement May be confusing with someone else.

Bottom line ALL ACMI carriers work rules are light years behind most other carriers.

gollum
04-19-2018, 09:37 PM
Okay. Letís look at the math. UPS or FedEx, never gonna make captain with ten years to go. So...

Retirement is better at brown or purple. But, if you are chucking $20k plus into a 401 for 10 years, with a $10k match, plus a low growth factor of around 4%, you got around $400k. And you get to factor in a waaayy shorter path to upgrade with the potential to crack $250 plus each year.

The big boys are good for young pilots. But, places like K4 make more sense for the 40+ crowd.

No disagreement on my end.

I was was more focused on his assertion that his argument on brownís retirement being better than K4s because of a pension and that a mil retirement was not worth figuring in was made less relevant by his statement that a pension could be taken away at any time.

gollum
04-19-2018, 09:38 PM
Catching up sorry donít live in these boards.

Still too long. And I did clarify in my original statement May be confusing with someone else.

Bottom line ALL ACMI carriers work rules are light years behind most other carriers.

An my point was for you to stick to speaking for your own carrier and not ours as we seem to like it over here. But alas, I guess that part fell on deaf ears.

Globemaster2827
04-19-2018, 09:45 PM
So by this line of thinking, the $40k UPS pension should also be figured in as $0 as it too (and more likely than a mil retirement ) can be taken away at any time. How many airline guys lost their pensions as at some point? How many military?

Personally... I'd factor in the UPS pension as $0 into my retirement planning. I'd rather not eat dog food if something went wrong. I can easily see the military retirement being means tested as we move to a more redistributive society despite the past.

Stratocruzr
04-19-2018, 09:47 PM
At Kalitta, we actually have pretty good work rules and a Chief Pilot who actually will step in and help you enforce those rules. No junior manning, no hold outs beyond your 16 scheduled days, no jumpseating to/from work or imputed income (increased taxable income) from company purchased tickets and most importantly, no crashpads.

Atlas as well with the exception of imputed income.

Kalittaís max double crew day is 24 hours followed by 22 hours of rest, so you are either thinking of someone else or just wrong. The 2-pilot (14 hours) and 3-pilot (17 hours) duty days are also pretty tolerable.

As I said before probable confusing with another carrier. Atlas 20 hours.


Kalitta has line guarantees. sorry that ATLAS doesnít.

Agree


While seniority doesnít help you get more days off it does help with getting the days you want off and getting those 85-90 hour lines. Me personally, I like knowing I am on the road for my 16 work days and then I am home for two weeks and not having to make multiple commutes to/from work eating into my time off. I guess itís a different story if you live in/near base with a major but I like where I live and donít want to move.


My point here: itís all well and good that life at ATLAS is pretty poor right now and we sympathize with you, but when you try and dissuade someone from for a company, how about you stick to speaking for your own company and not a place you donít work for.

When I first applied here I considered it a stepping stone (and a really good one) but since getting hired I have stopped updating my apps other places. Itís a great culture on the line and great people to fly with.

I was clear from the get go, may be confusing with annother ****box ACMI.
Youíve made my point perfectly. Poor work rules, you may be fine now but to tolerate that the rest of your career?? No thanks.
ACMI carriers are the bottom of the barrel. Everyone knows that. You may have found it works for you, thatís cool. But If you have the ability to avoid it, why not.

Locke
04-19-2018, 10:03 PM
I was clear from the get go, may be confusing with annother ****box ACMI.
Youíve made my point perfectly. Poor work rules, you may be fine now but to tolerate that the rest of your career?? No thanks.
ACMI carriers are the bottom of the barrel. Everyone knows that. You may have found it works for you, thatís cool. But If you have the ability to avoid it, why not.

Itís obvious that youíve had a bad experience with one of the ACMI carriers, but K4 is hardly the bottom of the barrel. While the contract has its flaws, itís a place you can make six figures your first year without trying, party around the world while on the clock, and golf two weeks out of every month. Thatís a pretty good lifestyle.

Donít lump that in with doing night hub turns out of CVG for pennies and overnighting in the armpit of Texas.

No Land 3
04-20-2018, 01:57 AM
I was clear from the get go, may be confusing with annother ****box ACMI.
Youíve made my point perfectly. Poor work rules, you may be fine now but to tolerate that the rest of your career?? No thanks.
ACMI carriers are the bottom of the barrel. Everyone knows that. You may have found it works for you, thatís cool. But If you have the ability to avoid it, why not.

I am just having a difficult time relating to and agreeing with what you are saying. I came from a regional, flying pax, doing the hub and spoke flying with the part 117 rest rules. Iíve been in the crappy commuter hotel van, going to the crappy cheap commuter hotel with AA, DL, and UA pilots, doing the same exact thing, having flown in a day early, and showing up to the airport early to have multiple tries to make it.
Even if they have better ďwork rulesĒ, the reality is that their ďworking life styleĒ as a commuter sucks compared to what I do at K4, and I can say this with zero doubt, having experienced it.
Not only am I making six figures from the start, I am also not spending money on hotels, and only splurge on food by choice. I could eat enough on the airplane(absolutely no shortage of food), and with free breakfast at most places, be good until I get back to the airplane.
Now excuse me, itís a beautiful day here in Europe, going to go for a nice walk and enjoy the sights.

FmrPropCapt
04-20-2018, 05:48 AM
Retirement, more like 12k a month for a lt col

BlueMoon
04-20-2018, 05:53 AM
Okay. Letís look at the math. UPS or FedEx, never gonna make captain with ten years to go. So...

Retirement is better at brown or purple. But, if you are chucking $20k plus into a 401 for 10 years, with a $10k match, plus a low growth factor of around 4%, you got around $400k. And you get to factor in a waaayy shorter path to upgrade with the potential to crack $250 plus each year.

The big boys are good for young pilots. But, places like K4 make more sense for the 40+ crowd.

Upgrade is about 2 years at Fedex for the 757.

8% B-fund will net him more than a 10k in company match after the first year. Plus heíll be accruing a pension.

Atlas Shrugged
04-20-2018, 07:29 AM
Retirement, more like 12k a month for a lt col

Is this a joke or sarcasm?
:D

Stimpy the Kat
04-20-2018, 07:33 AM
Try this for a week:

- Monday - Get up at 3am. Go to bed at Noon. Get Up at Midnight.

- Tuesday - Stay up until Noon. Go to bed. Sleep 4 hours. Get up and have dinner. Go to bed and get up at 3 am. No, wait...the phone rang. NOW, get up at Midnight.

- Wednesday - Stay up for 21 hours. Double crew so you get a nap on the plane. Get to destination. Take 24 hours off- But, plan sleep/naps carefully- things will probably change.

- Thursday - Randomly get up and go back to bed every time you think you should or shouldn't.

- Friday - WHATEVER...You get the picture. I can guarantee you won't continue this past Friday because you are tired of feeling like Dog $h!T all day everyday.

OH...UNLESS it's for The God Almighty Dollar...Then you will do this to yourself for 16 days in a row.

Lather, rinse, repeat, and destroy your health so that you never make it to 65 anyway, and then you can leave large chunks of money to others that you will never have the time to enjoy.

:)

Yay!


Seriously, get on with any of the Major/Legacy pax carriers, MOVE and live in base, and maintain a much healthier lifestyle so that you may enjoy all the rest of the days you have left on the planet.

ACMI IS a Blast...and some of the best flying I have done but, it is a young man's game. Don't be doing this to yourself when you are 55 years old!

The only reason people ever did is because there were few alternatives for many decades and they got STUCK.

You have options in the current hiring situation that have NEVER been present before in the history of the Industry here in the USA.

Good Luck and Godspeed whatever you do..!

STK

Globemaster2827
04-20-2018, 08:46 AM
Okay. Letís look at the math. UPS or FedEx, never gonna make captain with ten years to go. So...

Retirement is better at brown or purple. But, if you are chucking $20k plus into a 401 for 10 years, with a $10k match, plus a low growth factor of around 4%, you got around $400k. And you get to factor in a waaayy shorter path to upgrade with the potential to crack $250 plus each year.

The big boys are good for young pilots. But, places like K4 make more sense for the 40+ crowd.

FedEx is a 2 year upgrade on the 757 right now and UPS is adding 30 something airplanes. You'd definitely be a Captain in 10 years at both if you wanted it. The tough part is landing the job...

Globemaster2827
04-20-2018, 08:51 AM
At Kalitta, we actually have pretty good work rules and a Chief Pilot who actually will step in and help you enforce those rules. No junior manning, no hold outs beyond your 16 scheduled days, no jumpseating to/from work or imputed income (increased taxable income) from company purchased tickets and most importantly, no crashpads.



Kalittaís max double crew day is 24 hours followed by 22 hours of rest, so you are either thinking of someone else or just wrong. The 2-pilot (14 hours) and 3-pilot (17 hours) duty days are also pretty tolerable.



Kalitta has line guarantees. sorry that ATLAS doesnít.



While seniority doesnít help you get more days off it does help with getting the days you want off and getting those 85-90 hour lines. Me personally, I like knowing I am on the road for my 16 work days and then I am home for two weeks and not having to make multiple commutes to/from work eating into my time off. I guess itís a different story if you live in/near base with a major but I like where I live and donít want to move.


My point here: itís all well and good that life at ATLAS is pretty poor right now and we sympathize with you, but when you try and dissuade someone from for a company, how about you stick to speaking for your own company and not a place you donít work for.

When I first applied here I considered it a stepping stone (and a really good one) but since getting hired I have stopped updating my apps other places. Itís a great culture on the line and great people to fly with.

I'm at Atlas and I tell plenty of people to go to Kalitta. It's a much better stepping stone than Atlas. Might as well make a little money while you're building your resume for a Legacy, Southwest, FedEx or UPS. You will live on a credit card the first year at Atlas.

Globemaster2827
04-20-2018, 08:58 AM
Itís obvious that youíve had a bad experience with one of the ACMI carriers, but K4 is hardly the bottom of the barrel. While the contract has its flaws, itís a place you can make six figures your first year without trying, party around the world while on the clock, and golf two weeks out of every month. Thatís a pretty good lifestyle.

Donít lump that in with doing night hub turns out of CVG for pennies and overnighting in the armpit of Texas.

Which contracts are you better than?

I'd take the legacies, UPS, FedEx, Southwest, Spirit, ATI, and Omni for sure ahead of K4. I suspect I'd take JetBlue as well. That doesn't mean that I'd leave K4 for all of those if I were a Captain though...

shroomwell
04-20-2018, 10:51 AM
Try this for a week:

- Monday - Get up at 3am. Go to bed at Noon. Get Up at Midnight.

- Tuesday - Stay up until Noon. Go to bed. Sleep 4 hours. Get up and have dinner. Go to bed and get up at 3 am. No, wait...the phone rang. NOW, get up at Midnight.

- Wednesday - Stay up for 21 hours. Double crew so you get a nap on the plane. Get to destination. Take 24 hours off- But, plan sleep/naps carefully- things will probably change.

- Thursday - Randomly get up and go back to bed every time you think you should or shouldn't.

- Friday - WHATEVER...You get the picture. I can guarantee you won't continue this past Friday because you are tired of feeling like Dog $h!T all day everyday.

OH...UNLESS it's for The God Almighty Dollar...Then you will do this to yourself for 16 days in a row.

Lather, rinse, repeat, and destroy your health so that you never make it to 65 anyway, and then you can leave large chunks of money to others that you will never have the time to enjoy.

:)

Yay!


Seriously, get on with any of the Major/Legacy pax carriers, MOVE and live in base, and maintain a much healthier lifestyle so that you may enjoy all the rest of the days you have left on the planet.

ACMI IS a Blast...and some of the best flying I have done but, it is a young man's game. Don't be doing this to yourself when you are 55 years old!

The only reason people ever did is because there were few alternatives for many decades and they got STUCK.

You have options in the current hiring situation that have NEVER been present before in the history of the Industry here in the USA.

Good Luck and Godspeed whatever you do..!

STK

If you have a generally unhealthy lifestyle and eating habits when you're at home and not working, of course you're going to feel that way when you're working. I'm over 50...I've been doing ACMI flying for almost a couple of decades now and I don't feel anything like you're saying when I'm at work. Of course, I try to eat well, exercise, not drink 43 beers at every layover, and not spend my time and $$$ at every *****house in Wan Chai either. But hey, that's just me. Thanks to our new contract I'm making around $300k a year; money isn't everything to me so I'm saving most of what I make into my retirement. If I want to take my wife to Europe on vacation I find biz class seats and buy them myself. What am I missing out on? This place (K4) is a decent way to do my job, fly with nearly 100% non-dickheads, and refill my ATM.

Everyone is different...I love this job and the lifestyle and I plan on staying.

Stimpy the Kat
04-20-2018, 11:52 AM
Yup.

Diet and other healthy habits ( LOTS of water, go for a LONG walk on layovers , etc.) are even MORE important when constantly changing the circadian rhythm.

And agreed, Wan Chai should be a " One Time Only " experience.

I started ACMI at 52 and made it ( so far ) the better part of 7 years. We'll see what happens next...FAA Medical "Pending".

Here's one difference between Now and Then:

- PILOT SHORTAGE / STAFFING.

Prior to 18-20 months ago your footprint over 16-18 days would be nothing like I described in my previous post. Fly a day and then plenty of rest and circadian acclimation was more the Rule. So, that in a two week tour you might fly 25-60 hours and, feel quite decently doing so.

Now, what I previously described is almost the norm for many of the people in this segment of aviation. Go, Go, GO !...min. rest and go fly.

Here is a posting a friend made regarding his last 16 day Tour:

" Baltimore Cincinnati Dover Leipzig Afghanistan Bulgaria Germany Dover New York Anchorage South Korea Malaysia North East Africa Belgium Kuwait Belgium Cincinnati Dover Germany Cincinnati Baltimore. ... I’m done with that."

Do the math and fit that series of flights into 16 days...OUCH.

LOTS of money...But, at what cost ?

Jus' Sayin'

Stimpson

Speedster
04-20-2018, 01:58 PM
Is this a joke or sarcasm?
:D

Agreed lol

Speedster
04-20-2018, 02:01 PM
Retirement, more like 12k a month for a lt col

Lol this is ridiculous... we wouldnít be hemorrhaging military pilots across the board if you got that kind of retirement. Thatís more than an O-5 makes base pay full time...

maxjet
04-20-2018, 02:28 PM
Which contracts are you better than?

I'd take the legacies, UPS, FedEx, Southwest, Spirit, ATI, and Omni for sure ahead of K4. I suspect I'd take JetBlue as well. That doesn't mean that I'd leave K4 for all of those if I were a Captain though...

And the reason for taking Omni, ATI Spirit and Jet Blue over K4?

gollum
04-20-2018, 06:59 PM
Which contracts are you better than?

I'd take the legacies, UPS, FedEx, Southwest, Spirit, ATI, and Omni for sure ahead of K4. I suspect I'd take JetBlue as well. That doesn't mean that I'd leave K4 for all of those if I were a Captain though...

You mean jet blue who has no contract or OMNI who has K4 pay rates but worse work rules? Ok!!!! And ATI, I think I just spit milk out of my nose!

Globemaster2827
04-20-2018, 09:43 PM
And the reason for taking Omni, ATI Spirit and Jet Blue over K4?

Omni... The new rates will be higher. Similar work rules. Better retirement.

ATI.... See above but also you could move to CVG and be home more.

Spirit.... See above except you get more than 3 times the retirement of a K4 pilot and the work rules are FAR better. Tons of bases to move into.

Jet Blue.... This one was the closest. The retirement is more than twice yours and they're in negotiations for a new contract so since the compensation is similar, their work rules are better and their retirement is much better I'd go Jet Blue.

The best of all of those is Spirit. Look at what their retirement goes to at the end of that deal - 15% Direct Contribution into a 401k. You don't have to be gone a ton if you move in base. If I were a Captain at Spirit I'd probably stay even if FedEx or UPS called, but that's just me....

Don't get me wrong... K4 is the reason ATI and Omni got better deals so it plays a huge role in things. Spirit was the contract that really changed things for the best of the worst because they get the retirement. The rest of them are similar jobs in my eyes, but I'd give a slight edge to Omni and ATI. I also should've mentioned Allegient...

maxjet
04-21-2018, 03:07 AM
Omni... The new rates will be higher. Similar work rules. Better retirement.

ATI.... See above but also you could move to CVG and be home more.

Spirit.... See above except you get more than 3 times the retirement of a K4 pilot and the work rules are FAR better. Tons of bases to move into.

Jet Blue.... This one was the closest. The retirement is more than twice yours and they're in negotiations for a new contract so since the compensation is similar, their work rules are better and their retirement is much better I'd go Jet Blue.

The best of all of those is Spirit. Look at what their retirement goes to at the end of that deal - 15% Direct Contribution into a 401k. You don't have to be gone a ton if you move in base. If I were a Captain at Spirit I'd probably stay even if FedEx or UPS called, but that's just me....

Don't get me wrong... K4 is the reason ATI and Omni got better deals so it plays a huge role in things. Spirit was the contract that really changed things for the best of the worst because they get the retirement. The rest of them are similar jobs in my eyes, but I'd give a slight edge to Omni and ATI. I also should've mentioned Allegient...

It is all in what you are looking for. The big difference I see in all of these other airlines is quality of life. Before we had the new contract, people didnít leave K4 because of the way they were treated by the company or the work rules. They left because they didnít feel they were compensated well enough or they just couldnít handle the schedule due to legitimate conflicts in their lives.

My point is, in all of the above examples you have given except Omni the pilots are generally considered the enemy of the company are are abused at most times. A lot Omni Pilots do not fly much and are at work a lot. Translating into lower wages.

If it is all about the benjamins, Atlas is the long term place to be. IF they are successful in their contract negotiations. They eventually will have the money, benefits, and size and will again be the top tier ACMI airline.

However even when that happens, Kalitta Pilots will still have a way better quality of life. If you want to chase the money, then chase the money. If you want a career that you enjoy and enhances your total quality of life, look to work at quality employers like Kalitta.

nitefr8dog
04-21-2018, 08:07 AM
It is all in what you are looking for. The big difference I see in all of these other airlines is quality of life. Before we had the new contract, people didnít leave K4 because of the way they were treated by the company or the work rules. They left because they didnít feel they were compensated well enough or they just couldnít handle the schedule due to legitimate conflicts in their lives.

My point is, in all of the above examples you have given except Omni the pilots are generally considered the enemy of the company are are abused at most times. A lot Omni Pilots do not fly much and are at work a lot. Translating into lower wages.

If it is all about the benjamins, Atlas is the long term place to be. IF they are successful in their contract negotiations. They eventually will have the money, benefits, and size and will again be the top tier ACMI airline.

However even when that happens, Kalitta Pilots will still have a way better quality of life. If you want to chase the money, then chase the money. If you want a career that you enjoy and enhances your total quality of life, look to work at quality employers like Kalitta.
Except they are still an ACMI carrier...

Boris Badenov
04-21-2018, 08:27 AM
Huh? The new ATI rates are way behind K4. The Omni rates are better to the tune of a few bucks, no one breaks guarantee, and your 16 days can turn in to 18. I'm not suggesting that K4 is the answer to all of life's problems, but your assertions are...confusing.

No Land 3
04-21-2018, 11:26 AM
All of my friends are happy at Spirit, but only four days off at a time... Having two weeks off at a time means you have vacation every month.
It all depends what you want. Every other place except UPS/Fed Ex comes across to me as a regional.

useless
04-21-2018, 11:45 AM
By all means if you can get on with Fed Ex, but Kalitta is good too. You will make six from the start on the 747.

Maybe you did make six from the start but that can all change tomorrow for someone hired today. And that 19 month upgrade isnít guaranteed either. Planning on anything more than guarantee is foolish.

When I was there(Kalitta) my classmates and I were debating whether to take the ďquick upgradeĒ on the classic or wait the three to four years for the 400. Next thing we know here comes notification of impending furloughs and the talk changed from upgrade to having another job lined up.

I recommend Kalitta or Omni over Atlas, ATI etc for short timers that feel the need to get out of their regional, expand their resume, acquire a new type, whatever. But donít plan on making a career of it.

The upgrade times have dropped(shorter time and more of them) at Legacy carriers for those that want it ...Or you can sit in the right seat and top 200 year two at UPS/FedEx. The work rules will earn you superior pay when hit with those schedule changes and youíll still be in your ďfootprintĒ. Thatíll never happen in ACMI. You will have to work yourself hard and/or give up days off to earn the extras.

FWIWó Iíve felt more rested and had a better experience(not including abysmal pay) at Atlas... but overall same circus different tent.

maxjet
04-21-2018, 12:46 PM
Except they are still an ACMI carrier...

In you opinion, is that a bad thing? If so, why?

Globemaster2827
04-21-2018, 02:52 PM
It is all in what you are looking for. The big difference I see in all of these other airlines is quality of life. Before we had the new contract, people didnít leave K4 because of the way they were treated by the company or the work rules. They left because they didnít feel they were compensated well enough or they just couldnít handle the schedule due to legitimate conflicts in their lives.

My point is, in all of the above examples you have given except Omni the pilots are generally considered the enemy of the company are are abused at most times. A lot Omni Pilots do not fly much and are at work a lot. Translating into lower wages.

If it is all about the benjamins, Atlas is the long term place to be. IF they are successful in their contract negotiations. They eventually will have the money, benefits, and size and will again be the top tier ACMI airline.

However even when that happens, Kalitta Pilots will still have a way better quality of life. If you want to chase the money, then chase the money. If you want a career that you enjoy and enhances your total quality of life, look to work at quality employers like Kalitta.

I'm concerned about all of the ACMI carriers long term. The work rules and retirement are so far behind at all of them that there's not much motivation to stay if you can get out with 10 years left.

CaptYoda
04-21-2018, 03:12 PM
With ACMI flying and night flying/shift work in general:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-8b99rGpkM

No Land 3
04-21-2018, 03:31 PM
If you cannot sleep on an airplane, do not come to Kalitta. With that said, it seems most of the flying Iíve been doing lately, the sun has been up for the majority of it. Thereís no hard set rules here on the 74 except that you will get a giant variety of conditions. Iíve came home and been a total morning person, getting tired around 7 pm and waking up at 4am every morning for the two weeks, to being a night owl, sleeping in til 11am for half the time home. By far the hardest thing on your body is how much you sit. The catering can be a struggle for those who eat out of boredom. Most people gain a lot of weight, the dedicated health nuts of course manage to keep the weight off, but even they tell me about the struggles of just saying no to temptation.

nitefr8dog
04-22-2018, 05:23 AM
In you opinion, is that a bad thing? If so, why?
Yes I believe it's a bad thing. As an ACMI carrier especially the ones on the DHL ramp there will always be whipsawing. You are at the mercy of idiots who us multiple carriers to move their product. Right now Kallita is the chosen one... they just signed a contract, hiring, upgrading, holding hands and singing cum by ah! Next year Atlas, Southern, or knows maybe Western Global will be awarded their flying because they are cheaper. This is how DHL operates all over the world. At Federal and UPS the numbers decide the pay and the contract says who flys the freight. It's their own product. To count on a carrier tied to idiots like DHL and Amazon with contract flying is foolish. Non ACMI, UPS, Federal....or PAX with a retirement.

Stimpy the Kat
04-22-2018, 07:01 AM
Historically, ACMI/Cargo/Night Freight was a choice when other options were not available.

It's bad for your Health, and it doesn't require a PHd in Neuroscience to figure that out. But, also historically, Not Eating due to a lack of income is also detrimental to one's overall being.

We have always known the effects of sleep disruption in shift workers.

This type of flying is SO much worse than going to work every night at 11pm and coming home at 7am. You are rarely on ANY sort of a rotation that allows for even that level of a messed up circadian rhythm. You are always changing when and how your body "sleeps" and very much of the "sleep" on the road is, questionably, beneficial .

I don't care whose name is on the side of the aircraft or what the pay scale is. Bottom Line :

" This $h!t is BAD for you. "

But, like whiskey, Ho's, and so many other things...It sure can be a LOT of FUN.

:)

STK

maxjet
04-22-2018, 08:24 AM
Yes I believe it's a bad thing. As an ACMI carrier especially the ones on the DHL ramp there will always be whipsawing. You are at the mercy of idiots who us multiple carriers to move their product. Right now Kallita is the chosen one... they just signed a contract, hiring, upgrading, holding hands and singing cum by ah! Next year Atlas, Southern, or knows maybe Western Global will be awarded their flying because they are cheaper. This is how DHL operates all over the world. At Federal and UPS the numbers decide the pay and the contract says who flys the freight. It's their own product. To count on a carrier tied to idiots like DHL and Amazon with contract flying is foolish. Non ACMI, UPS, Federal....or PAX with a retirement.

You really donít understand much about the Kalitta business model. Connie played and lost at that game with AIA and will never go down that road again.

I will only speak for what I have been told about Kalitta. We are not being whipsawed by DHL at all. We only do short term contracts with them. This is by Connieís design not theirs. Connie does not want long term contracts with any companies. Unfortunately, for the others we are probably the whip in the saw. We can operate at a lower cost even not being Flag and also not biasing our fleet. Most of that comes from low financial obligation and the synergy of the internal maintenance done through our Oscoda facility which is not part of the airline.
Kalitta will be here for a long time long after Connie leaves. It is valueless in any other form than an airline, and the board that replaces him know that.

Thinking that all this security is great and that as a young pilot this is your home forever? Not so fast. Connie seems to be of the school of businessman (like me) who say, show me how paying you more makes more money for me. Our guys got the contract done because Connie wanted to expand. Either expand into the void left by National and others and the addition need for worldwide lift or face what ABX/ATI do, fighting over crumbs, looking for a way to grow on the back of another company. My opinion is that once the growth is over and the economy cools down we will be back to no pay raises and another very long negotiation.

The real danger in ACMI? Cabotage and single Captain remote FO, widebody freighters. We will be the first to go. Good news is, I will be retired by then.

nitefr8dog
04-22-2018, 09:16 AM
You really donít understand much about the Kalitta business model. Connie played and lost at that game with AIA and will never go down that road again.

I will only speak for what I have been told about Kalitta. We are not being whipsawed by DHL at all. We only do short term contracts with them. This is by Connieís design not theirs. Connie does not want long term contracts with any companies. Unfortunately, for the others we are probably the whip in the saw. We can operate at a lower cost even not being Flag and also not biasing our fleet. Most of that comes from low financial obligation and the synergy of the internal maintenance done through our Oscoda facility which is not part of the airline.
Kalitta will be here for a long time long after Connie leaves. It is valueless in any other form than an airline, and the board that replaces him know that.

Thinking that all this security is great and that as a young pilot this is your home forever? Not so fast. Connie seems to be of the school of businessman (like me) who say, show me how paying you more makes more money for me. Our guys got the contract done because Connie wanted to expand. Either expand into the void left by National and others and the addition need for worldwide lift or face what ABX/ATI do, fighting over crumbs, looking for a way to grow on the back of another company. My opinion is that once the growth is over and the economy cools down we will be back to no pay raises and another very long negotiation.

The real danger in ACMI? Cabotage and single Captain remote FO, widebody freighters. We will be the first to go. Good news is, I will be retired by then.
After 20+ years of night freight and and 14 with DHL I think I have a pretty good handle on how your company, my company and all other ACMI carriers operate.
You can polish a turd all you want its still a turd. Your business just like all ACMI carriers depend on renewable/ cancelable contracts. Things are great right now at K4..yipee. we have all been the chosen one in the DHL circus. There are much better airline jobs available than working for ANY ACMI company whether you want to believe it or not. But if someone wanted to fly night freight...UPS or Fedex with fantastic no overtime pay and retirement are the only options. Also ATSG does all their own maintenance also this is not a new concept.

maxjet
04-22-2018, 10:03 AM
After 20+ years of night freight and and 14 with DHL I think I have a pretty good handle on how your company, my company and all other ACMI carriers operate.
You can polish a turd all you want its still a turd. Your business just like all ACMI carriers depend on renewable/ cancelable contracts. Things are great right now at K4..yipee. we have all been the chosen one in the DHL circus. There are much better airline jobs available than working for ANY ACMI company whether you want to believe it or not. But if someone wanted to fly night freight...UPS or Fedex with fantastic no overtime pay and retirement are the only options. Also ATSG does all their own maintenance also this is not a new concept.

I think I was pretty clear about what Kalitta is about. You again show your ignorance. You must have missed the point. For example, K4 OSC operation is self sustaining without the airline, and the airline enhances OSC strength. OSC then can do K4 maintainence for little actual cost to Connie

nitefr8dog
04-22-2018, 11:37 AM
I think I was pretty clear about what Kalitta is about. You again show your ignorance. You must have missed the point. For example, K4 OSC operation is self sustaining without the airline, and the airline enhances OSC strength. OSC then can do K4 maintainence for little actual cost to Connie
So was I between maintenance and aircraft leasing at ATSG the airlines pay the light bills....read up about what you are talking about and you will stop showing your ignorance. It's not a dick measuring contest. This discussion is about working for an ACMI carrier vs a real airline that has its own product. The folks reading this are not applying to work in your fantastic maintenance facility...( that everybody else has)

maxjet
04-22-2018, 12:29 PM
So was I between maintenance and aircraft leasing at ATSG the airlines pay the light bills....read up about what you are talking about and you will stop showing your ignorance. It's not a dick measuring contest. This discussion is about working for an ACMI carrier vs a real airline that has its own product. The folks reading this are not applying to work in your fantastic maintenance facility...( that everybody else has)

You are right it is not a measuring contest. All I am writing, is that just like some Atlas pilots on here used to do, you cannot lump what we do and measure it against what you do. We have a strong foundation, you do not, and Atlas is even in worse shape. If, (hopefully never) economic armageddon happens, the airline best placed to survive is K4. The down side is slow growth and not being able to grab opportunities very quickly. If you are ABX or Atlas and do not have a substantial job offer, stay put is my advice. A good contract will happen. If you are at any of the others you mentioned run fo4 the Hills at the first opportunity. If we have another 911 type of economic collapse there will be lots of pilots out of work.
Lesson in all of this? Don’t put all of your eggs in the aviation basket. Take some of the money and create a second stream of income

nitefr8dog
04-22-2018, 01:15 PM
You are right it is not a measuring contest. All I am writing, is that just like some Atlas pilots on here used to do, you cannot lump what we do and measure it against what you do. We have a strong foundation, you do not, and Atlas is even in worse shape. If, (hopefully never) economic armageddon happens, the airline best placed to survive is K4. The down side is slow growth and not being able to grab opportunities very quickly. If you are ABX or Atlas and do not have a substantial job offer, stay put is my advice. A good contract will happen. If you are at any of the others you mentioned run fo4 the Hills at the first opportunity. If we have another 911 type of economic collapse there will be lots of pilots out of work.
Lesson in all of this? Donít put all of your eggs in the aviation basket. Take some of the money and create a second stream of income
That's funny...a strong foundation? ATSG is the largest leasing company for 767 aircraft which they started flying in 1998 a full 10 yes before everyone else figured out it was the go to aircraft ( except UPS ) they own twice as many aircraft as Kallita ( own not leased)..they own Pimco Tampa...run multiple sort facilities for the USPS...a hugh in-house maintenance and engineering base in Wilmington OH ..along with our own sim center. Having said all that ACMI still is the wrong way to go when you are looking at a long term airline career. If you look at Fedex or UPS they do not need those other operations to stay in business/profitable. What they do is enough which as a pilot is all you care about. You really unzip your fly and look like an idiot when you have no idea what you are talking about.

155mm
04-22-2018, 01:22 PM
If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

In general, the simple truth is:
1. Live out of a suitcase.
2. Chronically fatigued.
3. Sleep in a different bed everyday, notice how I didn't say night, and are awakened by overzealous maids that knock the door even with a Do not disturb sign posted.
4. Workout on crappy hotel gym equipment but it has improved over the years or you walk around the block in fear of getting mugged.
5. Watch a lot of porn and [email protected]@k off.
6. Eat out all the time and get unhealthy.
7. Go home to a spouse that is cheating on you and wind up with two or three x's before you wise up....Hence you have to work all the time to recover financially. Oh and your children simply regard you as a genetic contributor.
8. Suffer from depression but are unwilling to admit it because you are afraid you'll not pass a flight physical.
9. Work in a stressful environment constantly trying to avoid getting violated.
10. Retire and die within a couple years because your heart can't handle "real life".

Feel free to add.

-Living the dream!

nitefr8dog
04-22-2018, 01:31 PM
You are right it is not a measuring contest. All I am writing, is that just like some Atlas pilots on here used to do, you cannot lump what we do and measure it against what you do. We have a strong foundation, you do not, and Atlas is even in worse shape. If, (hopefully never) economic armageddon happens, the airline best placed to survive is K4. The down side is slow growth and not being able to grab opportunities very quickly. If you are ABX or Atlas and do not have a substantial job offer, stay put is my advice. A good contract will happen. If you are at any of the others you mentioned run fo4 the Hills at the first opportunity. If we have another 911 type of economic collapse there will be lots of pilots out of work.
Lesson in all of this? Donít put all of your eggs in the aviation basket. Take some of the money and create a second stream of income
You seem to get a bit misty eyed when I suggest ANY ACMI is the wrong choice in this hiring market. I will make it a bit easier for you.. ( unless you really are ignorant)..how many Fedex or UPS 1st, 2nd or third year pilots do you think would leave to go to Kallita if they had an opportunity?

Globemaster2827
04-22-2018, 03:23 PM
You are right it is not a measuring contest. All I am writing, is that just like some Atlas pilots on here used to do, you cannot lump what we do and measure it against what you do. We have a strong foundation, you do not, and Atlas is even in worse shape. If, (hopefully never) economic armageddon happens, the airline best placed to survive is K4. The down side is slow growth and not being able to grab opportunities very quickly. If you are ABX or Atlas and do not have a substantial job offer, stay put is my advice. A good contract will happen. If you are at any of the others you mentioned run fo4 the Hills at the first opportunity. If we have another 911 type of economic collapse there will be lots of pilots out of work.
Lesson in all of this? Donít put all of your eggs in the aviation basket. Take some of the money and create a second stream of income

You fly crap we can't crew because of our terrible contract and attrition. I'm pretty sure that if the economy went south and all of the sudden we had empty airplanes you'd be the first one we cut. There's a reason we're 3 times the size of your airline.

Lockheed
04-22-2018, 08:28 PM
You fly crap we can't crew because of our terrible contract and attrition. I'm pretty sure that if the economy went south and all of the sudden we had empty airplanes you'd be the first one we cut. There's a reason we're 3 times the size of your airline.

If the economy goes south YOUR airline may go south
suck on that for a while

No Land 3
04-22-2018, 11:47 PM
Iím scratching my head here... Most of the flights Iíve been doing the sun is up. What sounds like a turd sandwich is only doing night flying, short hops in a 767, domestically, never breaking guarantee.
Also, last time I checked, Connie owns 99% of his fleet, in other words, no debt. We are very well equipped to handle an economic downturn, everyone else is not.

Globemaster2827
04-23-2018, 12:07 AM
If the economy goes south YOUR airline may go south
suck on that for a while

It did just fine during the last one. It's now 3 times the size of the next largest ACMI. Once again... I doubt we'd be letting Kalitta haul our freight if all of the sudden we had the pilots to crew things and the jets to do it. An economic down turn would instantly hit Kalitta harder than Atlas because Atlas would eliminate it's contract with Kalitta.

No Land 3
04-23-2018, 12:15 AM
It did just fine during the last one. It's now 3 times the size of the next largest ACMI. Once again... I doubt we'd be letting Kalitta haul our freight if all of the sudden we had the pilots to crew things and the jets to do it. An economic down turn would instantly hit Kalitta harder than Atlas because Atlas would eliminate it's contract with Kalitta.
You actually make up a very small part of the flying we do, those airplanes would go straight to Turkish, or our many other customers. So what happens over at Atlas when your airplanes stop flying? Connie parks his for free.

gollum
04-23-2018, 02:05 AM
It did just fine during the last one. It's now 3 times the size of the next largest ACMI. Once again... I doubt we'd be letting Kalitta haul our freight if all of the sudden we had the pilots to crew things and the jets to do it. An economic down turn would instantly hit Kalitta harder than Atlas because Atlas would eliminate it's contract with Kalitta.

I think you are way over estimating how much of your flying is sub-contracted to us. Itís such a small piece of our overall revenue that it would hardly be missed. You sound like a ****ed off dog with a bone who because (and I have said before we do sympathize with you) due to issues your current management situation, is so focused on K4 flying your frieght (because you canít) you are holding that against us. We donít make the business decisions on what gets loaded on our planes.

As far as other business goes.. With outright owning the majority of his airplanes, Connieís positioned extremely well to be able to withstand much tighter margins in his contracts and keep all of his planes flying without and would most certainly be the one of the last ACMI (hell airlines period) to furlough pilots, where as I am fairly certain Atlas would not have that luxury.

sky jet
04-23-2018, 04:27 AM
I'm former military pilot (F/A-18 and C-12) currently doing jet contract work with the DoD. I've got my ATP, Class 1, 5000+ hours, current and qualified, etc... I've got about 10 years left for commercial flying and am looking at different options. Ideally I think I'd like to go passenger, but cargo is looking more and more interesting as I investigate my options

If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.

Thanks
PR86

^^^^^^^
This thread started out as a broad question by a guy who doesn't live in our world looking for some general information. It has degenerated into an ACMI 'mines bigger than yours' cage match. How about we steer this back to what the original poster asked? Give your general opinion about the job. Commentary on places you don't work is not required to answer his questions. I seriously doubt that he is reading this thread anymore as it long since stopped giving him any useful information but we can at least try.

maxjet
04-23-2018, 05:27 AM
That's funny...a strong foundation? ATSG is the largest leasing company for 767 aircraft which they started flying in 1998 a full 10 yes before everyone else figured out it was the go to aircraft ( except UPS ) they own twice as many aircraft as Kallita ( own not leased)..they own Pimco Tampa...run multiple sort facilities for the USPS...a hugh in-house maintenance and engineering base in Wilmington OH ..along with our own sim center. Having said all that ACMI still is the wrong way to go when you are looking at a long term airline career. If you look at Fedex or UPS they do not need those other operations to stay in business/profitable. What they do is enough which as a pilot is all you care about. You really unzip your fly and look like an idiot when you have no idea what you are talking about.

You are financially healthy? You are not in debt? Quit drinking the kool aid man read this:

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transportation/nasdaq-atsg/air-transport-services-group/news/should-you-buy-air-transport-services-group-inc-nasdaqatsg/

Yea, that’s right you are in sad shape financially. Guess my unzipped fly was open for a reason. So I could pee all over your silly chest thumping. Thought you wrote this is not a measuring stick contest

maxjet
04-23-2018, 05:34 AM
You seem to get a bit misty eyed when I suggest ANY ACMI is the wrong choice in this hiring market. I will make it a bit easier for you.. ( unless you really are ignorant)..how many Fedex or UPS 1st, 2nd or third year pilots do you think would leave to go to Kallita if they had an opportunity?
None. You however donít either read or comprehend well. The discussion was about pilot like me and others who either canít get hired or donít want to have to reinvest financially in a new career because of age or circumstances. No one thinks that ACMI is as financially viable as the big two. Quit being a dumb butt

nitefr8dog
04-23-2018, 05:43 AM
You are financially healthy? You are not in debt? Quit drinking the kool aid man read this:

https://simplywall.st/stocks/us/transportation/nasdaq-atsg/air-transport-services-group/news/should-you-buy-air-transport-services-group-inc-nasdaqatsg/

Yea, thatís right you are in sad shape financially. Guess my unzipped fly was open for a reason. So I could pee all over your silly chest thumping. Thought you wrote this is not a measuring stick contest
That's why they continue making a profit and outperformed the S&P by 32%....like you said you and those like you who cannot get a job elsewhere, will end up flying night freight for an ACMI carrier without retirement.

WhipWhitaker
04-23-2018, 06:19 AM
Damn there is a lot of d**k riders in here. If you don't think UPS/FedEx is a better job in EVERY way than any ACMI, you're delusional, or unable to get hired anywhere else (probably because you're delusional.) FWIW I'm happy here until the big dogs call or in case they never do, QOL is good enough to make it a slightly sadder and much less lucrative career.

nitefr8dog
04-23-2018, 07:08 AM
Damn there is a lot of d**k riders in here. If you don't think UPS/FedEx is a better job in EVERY way than any ACMI, you're delusional, or unable to get hired anywhere else (probably because you're delusional.) FWIW I'm happy here until the big dogs call or in case they never do, QOL is good enough to make it a slightly sadder and much less lucrative career.
I don't need another job..I have a full retirement....you guys talk like 200k is alot of money, it's nothing. We all get 14 or 13 days a month off depending on the month. Those who don't do so by choice. In the last 2 yrs ABX paid some rediculious penalty pay that you could not understand because they chose not to staff the airline. But those who worked o/t did so by choice. Many crew members never even worked the 6 extra days to qualify for the penalty pay. QOL is whatever you are willing to except.
I would never recommend night freight to anyone..and that's after flying home almost everyday and every weekend for the first 15 yrs. And I especially would not recommended ACMI night freight without a retirement!

nitefr8dog
04-23-2018, 07:12 AM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2578259]I don't need another job..I have a full retirement....you guys talk like 200k is alot of money, it's nothing. We all get 14 or 13 days a month off depending on the month. Those who don't do so by choice. In the last 2 yrs ABX paid some rediculious penalty pay that you could not understand because they chose not to staff the airline. But those who worked o/t did so by choice. Many crew members never even worked the 6 extra days to qualify for the penalty pay. QOL is whatever you are willing to except.
I would never recommend night freight to anyone..and that's after flying home almost everyday and every weekend for the first 15 yrs. And I especially would not recommended ACMI night freight without a retirement...especially when there are so many other options available.. ludicrous!

No Land 3
04-23-2018, 08:19 AM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2578259]I don't need another job..I have a full retirement....you guys talk like 200k is alot of money, it's nothing. We all get 14 or 13 days a month off depending on the month. Those who don't do so by choice. In the last 2 yrs ABX paid some rediculious penalty pay that you could not understand because they chose not to staff the airline. But those who worked o/t did so by choice. Many crew members never even worked the 6 extra days to qualify for the penalty pay. QOL is whatever you are willing to except.
I would never recommend night freight to anyone..and that's after flying home almost everyday and every weekend for the first 15 yrs. And I especially would not recommended ACMI night freight without a retirement...especially when there are so many other options available.. ludicrous!
Not a single person in this thread has stated that ACMI is a better choice than Fed Ex and UPS. We are simply saying that K4 is a pretty good deal right now, and certainly better than how you are painting it. When I worked at Mesa, it was great because I knew it sucked and that I had to leave ASAP. Bad thing about K4 is that it is very nice and kills all motivation to leave. I am ok with this being my destination job, just wish I had a crystal ball.

Reactivity
04-23-2018, 11:26 AM
If anyone can pass any info my way about the cargo world (specifically Kalita or Atlas since I've already got a lot of info on UPS and FedEx), the hiring, the job, the lifestyle, etc.., I'd really appreciate anything you can pass my way.


As a general rule, anything that can go wrong at home will go wrong right after you head out the door for a 17-day stretch. At least that's been my experience so far.

woog315
04-23-2018, 11:34 AM
In the last 2 yrs ABX paid some rediculious penalty pay that you could not understand because they chose not to staff the airline. But those who worked o/t did so by choice.

There were a lot of people riding the JRM gravy train in 2016, no doubt. But there were also a lot of people on probation with absolutely no choice but to bend over and have their holiday plans ruined by forced jr manning. Please stop trying to claim that you just tell scheduling to shove it and hang up the phone- if you actually do that you are the only one I know of who gets away with it. Forced jr manning is a part of the ABX contract, and anyone who comes here should know that. It's not voluntary. Yes, when they have plenty of people on staff you can ask them to call the next guy and they usually will but if they don't have anyone else you are on the line with no options. I have had it happen to me, and so have most other guys. To reiterate for anyone thinking of coming here- ABX has a forced jr manning policy in their contract, and if you refuse an assignment you can face disciplinary action. Period.

And...if I were a betting man, I would bet you have plenty of jr man assignments to your name. Could be wrong.

nitefr8dog
04-23-2018, 01:12 PM
There were a lot of people riding the JRM gravy train in 2016, no doubt. But there were also a lot of people on probation with absolutely no choice but to bend over and have their holiday plans ruined by forced jr manning. Please stop trying to claim that you just tell scheduling to shove it and hang up the phone- if you actually do that you are the only one I know of who gets away with it. Forced jr manning is a part of the ABX contract, and anyone who comes here should know that. It's not voluntary. Yes, when they have plenty of people on staff you can ask them to call the next guy and they usually will but if they don't have anyone else you are on the line with no options. I have had it happen to me, and so have most other guys. To reiterate for anyone thinking of coming here- ABX has a forced jr manning policy in their contract, and if you refuse an assignment you can face disciplinary action. Period.

And...if I were a betting man, I would bet you have plenty of jr man assignments to your name. Could be wrong.
BS....I can name as many crewmembers who did not accept JRM assignments. I have never worked a day I did not want. You get a red NAV on your schedule. Try it! Those that made barrels of money month in month out let it happen dropped d6 days and enjoyed their time off. P.S. I never have nor will I ever let any employer force me to do anything. If you do you are foolish.

ocskyguy
04-23-2018, 09:19 PM
I'm gonna chime in. Just because I had dinner with one of the other old guys and we remarked about how crazy it was that we are probably going to retire from K4. Who would have thunk?

The ACMI cargo world is so diverse that you have a tough time nailing down exactly what the lifestyle is. I see a lot of disgruntled folks who complain about the off the clock sleep and rotten commutes. That is true for some. But, honestly, it is not true for all.

Been a K4 guy for over 25 years. Have had a sh**t load of fun seeing the world on somebody else's dime. And, at least at the current contract level, have made more than my fair share of $$.

But, there are compromises. You need to see if your significant other is okay with long periods at home alone. Unlike the regionals and majors, our schedules are often comprised of long blocks of days on. But, that comes with a kind of cool payback as you move up the list. You can bid first half of one month and last half of the next and get a month off without missing a paycheck. How cool is that?

I have close friends at most of the majors. To a man (woman) they are jealous of the K4 lifestyle. Even if it comes with a few less retirement bucks. It's all about the fun. Right?

Skyguy, out...

Globemaster2827
04-25-2018, 09:26 PM
I'm gonna chime in. Just because I had dinner with one of the other old guys and we remarked about how crazy it was that we are probably going to retire from K4. Who would have thunk?

The ACMI cargo world is so diverse that you have a tough time nailing down exactly what the lifestyle is. I see a lot of disgruntled folks who complain about the off the clock sleep and rotten commutes. That is true for some. But, honestly, it is not true for all.

Been a K4 guy for over 25 years. Have had a sh**t load of fun seeing the world on somebody else's dime. And, at least at the current contract level, have made more than my fair share of $$.

But, there are compromises. You need to see if your significant other is okay with long periods at home alone. Unlike the regionals and majors, our schedules are often comprised of long blocks of days on. But, that comes with a kind of cool payback as you move up the list. You can bid first half of one month and last half of the next and get a month off without missing a paycheck. How cool is that?

I have close friends at most of the majors. To a man (woman) they are jealous of the K4 lifestyle. Even if it comes with a few less retirement bucks. It's all about the fun. Right?

Skyguy, out...

Do you really think they're jealous of your lifestyle? I've got buddies at all sorts of Majors plus FedEx and UPS and none of them envy the ACMI lifestyle. All of them openly discuss how abusive the "Lifestyle" is. Many of them left good seniority numbers to start over at the bottom of other lists and the "Lifestyle" was the #1 reason followed closely by the pay and retirement.

There are good reasons to work for ACMIs. There aren't many good reasons to stay at one if you can get out.

Lockheed
04-26-2018, 01:22 AM
Do you really think they're jealous of your lifestyle? I've got buddies at all sorts of Majors plus FedEx and UPS and none of them envy the ACMI lifestyle. All of them openly discuss how abusive the "Lifestyle" is. Many of them left good seniority numbers to start over at the bottom of other lists and the "Lifestyle" was the #1 reason followed closely by the pay and retirement.

There are good reasons to work for ACMIs. There aren't many good reasons to stay at one if you can get out.

He said HIS lifestyle not yours
I can assure you his lifestyle is different then yours

No Land 3
04-26-2018, 03:23 AM
Do you really think they're jealous of your lifestyle? I've got buddies at all sorts of Majors plus FedEx and UPS and none of them envy the ACMI lifestyle. All of them openly discuss how abusive the "Lifestyle" is. Many of them left good seniority numbers to start over at the bottom of other lists and the "Lifestyle" was the #1 reason followed closely by the pay and retirement.

There are good reasons to work for ACMIs. There aren't many good reasons to stay at one if you can get out.

How much you want to bet that if you were at Kalitta right now, you wouldnít be ****ed off, and maybe even be happy? I look at the other ACMIís and I do not see an equivalence in the industry. Atlas is not because of the toxic work environment and sub par pay. Should they get a new contract that makes them happy, then they will be an equivalent.
As it stands right now, K4 is on track to be one of the largest operators of 747ís.

Colt45
04-26-2018, 05:50 AM
How much you want to bet that if you were at Kalitta right now, you wouldnít be ****ed off, and maybe even be happy? I look at the other ACMIís and I do not see an equivalence in the industry. Atlas is not because of the toxic work environment and sub par pay. Should they get a new contract that makes them happy, then they will be an equivalent.
As it stands right now, K4 is on track to be one of the largest operators of 747ís.

Well just wait until Atlas does get a contract, it will probably leapfrog ours and K4 will be in the rear with the gear once again. :mad:

No Land 3
04-26-2018, 05:55 AM
Well just wait until Atlas does get a contract, it will probably leapfrog ours and K4 will be in the rear with the gear once again. :mad:

I hope it does, and eventually we leap frog them. Thatís how it is supposed to work. Letís just hope inflation doesnít get to the point where 300k a year is chump change...

Globemaster2827
04-26-2018, 09:17 AM
How much you want to bet that if you were at Kalitta right now, you wouldnít be ****ed off, and maybe even be happy? I look at the other ACMIís and I do not see an equivalence in the industry. Atlas is not because of the toxic work environment and sub par pay. Should they get a new contract that makes them happy, then they will be an equivalent.
As it stands right now, K4 is on track to be one of the largest operators of 747ís.

Looking at how K4's retirement is WORSE than Atlas's... My Apps would be out and I'd be furious to be working with people who think that's fine. I wouldn't complain in the cockpit, but I'd be searching for an airline that has a plan for my retirement. That airline wouldn't be K4.

Colt45
04-26-2018, 10:01 AM
I hope it does, and eventually we leap frog them. Thatís how it is supposed to work. Letís just hope inflation doesnít get to the point where 300k a year is chump change...

No kidding..:eek:

No Land 3
04-26-2018, 10:52 AM
Looking at how K4's retirement is WORSE than Atlas's... My Apps would be out and I'd be furious to be working with people who think that's fine. I wouldn't complain in the cockpit, but I'd be searching for an airline that has a plan for my retirement. That airline wouldn't be K4.
If you canít fund your own retirement making 300k a year, you got bigger problems

nitefr8dog
04-26-2018, 11:10 AM
If you canít fund your own retirement making 300k a year, you got bigger problems
I have not seen 300k..where is that in your contract?

Lockheed
04-26-2018, 03:54 PM
I have not seen 300k..where is that in your contract?

You havent seen because you refuse to...you dont believe what k4 guys report on here

So one more time
We make 75-100 hours pay in the 16 days we owe them
It is very easy to work 2-4 extra days and make another 40-60 hrs

Now the stars wont line up every month and some dont want ot

I made 275 last year and worked 3 ot trips

A close freind (9yearCA) made close to 500 by working his arse off

Do you see it now?

Industry Strnd
04-26-2018, 07:56 PM
BS....I can name as many crewmembers who did not accept JRM assignments. I have never worked a day I did not want. You get a red NAV on your schedule. Try it! Those that made barrels of money month in month out let it happen dropped d6 days and enjoyed their time off. P.S. I never have nor will I ever let any employer force me to do anything. If you do you are foolish.

^^^^management ^|
^^^^~^ you can't refuse junior man at abx. You can and will be forced to work on your days off! I dare this this guy point where in the cba one can refuse.......he can't period, ACMI is a laugh of the industry. Look elsewhere young grasshopper!

nitefr8dog
04-27-2018, 09:39 AM
You havent seen because you refuse to...you dont believe what k4 guys report on here

So one more time
We make 75-100 hours pay in the 16 days we owe them
It is very easy to work 2-4 extra days and make another 40-60 hrs

Now the stars wont line up every month and some dont want ot

I made 275 last year and worked 3 ot trips

A close freind (9yearCA) made close to 500 by working his arse off

Do you see it now?

Yes I see you working on your days off to fund your own retirement! How is that better than 300k at Federal or UPS without sacrificing home time/QOL? One CP we used to have that was a close friend of mine who got stuck doing contract negotiations asked me once.....why do you guys work OT and buy your vacations back....why not just ask for more money...the company will pay more!
300k is not that much. And you don't have to work your arse off. We all have lots of pilots north of 300/400/500. I would be impressed with 300k and days off with retirement. ACMI sucks!

nitefr8dog
04-27-2018, 10:35 AM
^^^^management ^|
^^^^~^ you can't refuse junior man at abx. You can and will be forced to work on your days off! I dare this this guy point where in the cba one can refuse.......he can't period, ACMI is a laugh of the industry. Look elsewhere young grasshopper!
And nowhere in our contract does it say the hotels we stay at will have running water or toilets that flush...would you stay there if they didn't? For Chri$t's sake! Grow a pair! If its time to go home GO HOME!

Locke
04-27-2018, 12:16 PM
Yes I see you working on your days off to fund your own retirement! How is that better than 300k at Federal or UPS without sacrificing home time/QOL? One CP we used to have that was a close friend of mine who got stuck doing contract negotiations asked me once.....why do you guys work OT and buy your vacations back....why not just ask for more money...the company will pay more!
300k is not that much. And you don't have to work your arse off. We all have lots of pilots north of 300/400/500. I would be impressed with 300k and days off with retirement. ACMI sucks!

When did this become a Kalitta vs UPS/FedEx argument? The only thing K4 has on those two is not having to commute, but if youíre willing to move to base and get a job with those, do it.

You wonít get rich on work rules here. The guys that bring in top dollar fly their asses off. We (747) do not sit R1 in the CVG chow hall. We do not do hub turns. We do not only fly at night. If you donít want to fly overtime you might not break 300 *gasp* but no one is forcing you to fly on your days off.

This isnít a contract negotiation online, so thereís no need for this victim woe is me mentality here. Boo hoo I had to go to work to make more than the average American can even fathom. Most of the Kalitta guys are actually happy, so dropping a giant deuce on the entire industry is unwarranted.

Lockheed
04-27-2018, 12:23 PM
Yes I see you working on your days off to fund your own retirement! How is that better than 300k at Federal or UPS without sacrificing home time/QOL? One CP we used to have that was a close friend of mine who got stuck doing contract negotiations asked me once.....why do you guys work OT and buy your vacations back....why not just ask for more money...the company will pay more!
300k is not that much. And you don't have to work your arse off. We all have lots of pilots north of 300/400/500. I would be impressed with 300k and days off with retirement. ACMI sucks!


man you need a new job or pills or something

nitefr8dog
04-27-2018, 03:54 PM
man you need a new job or pills or something
I guess it was a tough question....let me try again...where in your contract does it say you get paid 300k( to fund your retirement)..********

Locke
04-27-2018, 06:04 PM
I guess it was a tough question....let me try again...where in your contract does it say you get paid 300k( to fund your retirement) without working on days off? *****!

You are just a pleasant individual aren’t you? I bet you spend your nights in a dark room sipping scotch staring at a revolver. Here’s some simple math to ponder instead.

12 yr captain: 262.12. (Appendex 5-A)
Check airman override: 15 (Ch 5-Q-1)
Easily exceedable average: 90.5

277.12x90.5=25079.36
25079.36x12=300952.32

That is no overtime. I got 132 hours last month with 2 days of overtime (or days that the pool boy was porking my wife as you so elequently put it). I averaged 93 hours a month last year as a 2year FO. What do you think a maxed out captain that tries is going to do?

Now go take your pills, and calm the F down. If you hate your job go do something else.

Stimpy the Kat
04-28-2018, 08:59 AM
30 years of the SAME conversation...

It's not about how much you CAN make. It is about how much you DO make.

The example above is incorrect: An assumed 90.5 hrs. IS 26.5 hours of OT every month.

Guarantee is 64. The above is a fallacious argument.

Look, it's a good contract compared to previous, but it still is what it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For comparison and sake of argument( Random Example ):

K4/Max. Capt. - $262 x 64 = $201k / Annual guarantee.

Spirit/ Max. Capt. - $238 x 72 = $206k / Annual guarantee.

Plus 11% Direct Contribution = $ 23k yearly + $206k = $229k / Annual guarantee.

So, this is what each of these individuals DO make. Add over rides, soft time, D/O flying, 401k contributions, etc. and people CAN make much more.

To each his own.

Point being, the K4 CBA does not provide for a retirement.

The Spirit CBA clearly does.

So, "show me where it says that in the Contract" is a valid argument.

Whatever.

:(


STK

Lockheed
04-28-2018, 11:46 AM
30 years of the SAME conversation...

It's not about how much you CAN make. It is about how much you DO make.

The example above is incorrect: An assumed 90.5 hrs. IS 26.5 hours of OT every month.

Guarantee is 64. The above is a fallacious argument.

Look, it's a good contract compared to previous, but it still is what it is.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For comparison and sake of argument( Random Example ):

K4/Max. Capt. - $262 x 64 = $201k / Annual guarantee.

Spirit/ Max. Capt. - $238 x 72 = $206k / Annual guarantee.

Plus 11% Direct Contribution = $ 23k yearly + $206k = $229k / Annual guarantee.

So, this is what each of these individuals DO make. Add over rides, soft time, D/O flying, 401k contributions, etc. and people CAN make much more.

To each his own.

Point being, the K4 CBA does not provide for a retirement.

The Spirit CBA clearly does.

So, "show me where it says that in the Contract" is a valid argument.

Whatever.

:(


STK


you would be wrong fury one
times have changed
100+ hrs in 16 days is commonplace
those that work ot push 150 or more

85-90 in 16 days is now just ho hum

unless I misunderstand you - the 26.5 is above guarantee - not necessarily OT

Stimpy the Kat
04-28-2018, 01:08 PM
Believe me, I fully understand the landscape at K4. The Great Furry One has been watching carefully from afar.

:)

MAJOR POINT Still Being :

The K4 CBA does not provide for a retirement.

The Spirit CBA clearly does.

So, "show me where it says that in the Contract" is a valid statement. ( Per NiteFr8Dog's argument. )


Respectfully Submitted,

StimPson J. kAt

Lockheed
04-28-2018, 07:22 PM
Believe me, I fully understand the landscape at K4. The Great Furry One has been watching carefully from afar.

:)

MAJOR POINT Still Being :

The K4 CBA does not provide for a retirement.

The Spirit CBA clearly does.

So, "show me where it says that in the Contract" is a valid statement. ( Per NiteFr8Dog's argument. )


Respectfully Submitted,

StimPson J. kAt

look back..I quoted him
he asked ..where is 300k in the contract..that's what I responded to

shroomwell
04-29-2018, 12:57 AM
Believe me, I fully understand the landscape at K4. The Great Furry One has been watching carefully from afar.

:)

MAJOR POINT Still Being :

The K4 CBA does not provide for a retirement.

The Spirit CBA clearly does.

So, "show me where it says that in the Contract" is a valid statement. ( Per NiteFr8Dog's argument. )


Respectfully Submitted,

StimPson J. kAt

Tick tock, our CBA becomes amendable soon. With better union representation that will work for and open the sections that WE want.

maxjet
04-29-2018, 04:03 AM
Tick tock, our CBA becomes amendable soon. With better union representation that will work for and open the sections that WE want.

Our length of negotiations had little to do with our Union and much to do with Connie. The RLA severely limits what a Union can do. A good example is Atlas. They are negotiating with a company that is top heavy in debt, and has lots of support from its members regarding no OT and work slowdowns. You would think it would get done quickly. The courts allowed the company to file an injunction against the Union.

Imagine the response from Connie when you ask for 16% contribution. One of the more gentle responses will be, show me how paying you 16% more, makes me more money? I don’t have an answer for that. If we don’t come up with one that makes sense then there will be no 16%.

The contract was settled because a perfect storm happened. Couldn’t hire pilots and Connie needed to expand or wither and die on the vine like National.

Here’s hoping for another perfect storm in a few years. For certain lots of things will change by the time a new contract is finalized.

On the good side, Connie and Pete may establish a better working relationship with the new union. World peace may become possible at a level not seen before, resulting in economic growth.

On the bad side, recession, cabatoge, 767 prices stay high, An Atlas type board takes over for our present management team.

Bottom line is, don’t set your hopes on another contract leap anywhere near what the last one was. Btw, keep in mind that all ships in the harbor have yet to rise. Other than the pilots, nobody else in the company received pay raises 2 years ago. That shoe is yet to drop.

shroomwell
04-29-2018, 04:29 AM
Our length of negotiations had little to do with our Union and much to do with Connie. The RLA severely limits what a Union can do. A good example is Atlas. They are negotiating with a company that is top heavy in debt, and has lots of support from its members regarding no OT and work slowdowns. You would think it would get done quickly. The courts allowed the company to file an injunction against the Union.

Imagine the response from Connie when you ask for 16% contribution. One of the more gentle responses will be, show me how paying you 16% more, makes me more money? I donít have an answer for that. If we donít come up with one that makes sense then there will be no 16%.

The contract was settled because a perfect storm happened. Couldnít hire pilots and Connie needed to expand or wither and die on the vine like National.

Hereís hoping for another perfect storm in a few years. For certain lots of things will change by the time a new contract is finalized.

On the good side, Connie and Pete may establish a better working relationship with the new union. World peace may become possible at a level not seen before, resulting in economic growth.

On the bad side, recession, cabatoge, 767 prices stay high, An Atlas type board takes over for our present management team.

Bottom line is, donít set your hopes on another contract leap anywhere near what the last one was. Btw, keep in mind that all ships in the harbor have yet to rise. Other than the pilots, nobody else in the company received pay raises 2 years ago. That shoe is yet to drop.

Your points are valid. At this point I would not be expecting to make any monumental leaps with our next contract, certainly as compared to our last one. I do think it will be nice to have the representation that will allow us perhaps to negotiate 4-5 sections of our choosing and be done with it, rather than all 28 sections.

Lockheed
04-29-2018, 08:26 AM
Your points are valid. At this point I would not be expecting to make any monumental leaps with our next contract, certainly as compared to our last one. I do think it will be nice to have the representation that will allow us perhaps to negotiate 4-5 sections of our choosing and be done with it, rather than all 28 sections.

spot on.....

lionflyer
04-29-2018, 03:24 PM
They are going to stall and drag the next one 6-7 years regardless of how many sections are opened. As long as there are resumes on file, they have no incentive to negotiate.

frozenboxhauler
04-30-2018, 04:36 PM
Okay. Letís look at the math. UPS or FedEx, never gonna make captain with ten years to go. So...

Retirement is better at brown or purple. But, if you are chucking $20k plus into a 401 for 10 years, with a $10k match, plus a low growth factor of around 4%, you got around $400k. And you get to factor in a waaayy shorter path to upgrade with the potential to crack $250 plus each year.

The big boys are good for young pilots. But, places like K4 make more sense for the 40+ crowd.

Purple now has B757 Captains with less than 3 years on the property.
fbh

Lockheed
04-30-2018, 05:29 PM
They are going to stall and drag the next one 6-7 years regardless of how many sections are opened. As long as there are resumes on file, they have no incentive to negotiate.
Man dont be so optimistic

lionflyer
04-30-2018, 07:25 PM
Man dont be so optimistic

More like realistic.

CallmeJB
05-01-2018, 09:00 PM
QOL is whatever you are willing to except.
This, unwittingly, is the most accurate post about ACMI.

Stimpy the Kat
05-02-2018, 07:36 AM
" ...Tick tock, our CBA becomes amendable soon. With better union representation that will work for and open the sections that WE want. "

I would respectfully disagree.

Contract 101/Day ONE:

Union: So, we have decided we only want to open the following sections..

Company: That's nice. We really feel the need to open ALL of them.

It doesn't matter who the representation is, Teamsters/ALPA/In-House..It is generally in any company's best interest to delay and stall as long as possible and, this is the first tool in the box to achieve that goal.

Have selected sections been agreed upon by Union and Management before?

Yes. When it is to the Company's advantage to do so.

I believe both American and United may have done so in the past decade. (?)

Cest La Vie.

:)


STIMPY

vroll1800
05-03-2018, 10:07 AM
Incident: Kalitta B744 at Hong Kong on Apr 30th 2018, gear problem after departure (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4b7fee91&opt=0)

OP, or anyone else considering ACMI vs ULCC question should read this incident. Please note the 16.5 hr. ground time between returning to land, and resuming original Hong Kong to Bishkek flight. Also note arriving 18 hours late.

This begs the question of if the original crew, or a substitute crew flew the 2nd flight. If the former, did original crew get crew rest at hotel (e.g., taken off duty)for (xx) hours, or were they "left on the hook" for the ground delay, thus being on duty for 24 hours or more. Perhaps some K4 poster could enlighten at least 1 inquiring mind.

Ask yourself if you'd be willing to subject yourself to this kind of duty period several(many?) times throughout the year(s).

CallmeJB
05-03-2018, 06:35 PM
Incident: Kalitta B744 at Hong Kong on Apr 30th 2018, gear problem after departure (http://www.avherald.com/h?article=4b7fee91&opt=0)

OP, or anyone else considering ACMI vs ULCC question should read this incident. Please note the 16.5 hr. ground time between returning to land, and resuming original Hong Kong to Bishkek flight. Also note arriving 18 hours late.

This begs the question of if the original crew, or a substitute crew flew the 2nd flight. If the former, did original crew get crew rest at hotel (e.g., taken off duty)for (xx) hours, or were they "left on the hook" for the ground delay, thus being on duty for 24 hours or more. Perhaps some K4 poster could enlighten at least 1 inquiring mind.

Ask yourself if you'd be willing to subject yourself to this kind of duty period several(many?) times throughout the year(s).
Troll bait?

There's no way that was operated by the original crew without a new rest period.

Locke
05-03-2018, 06:58 PM
Troll bait?

There's no way that was operated by the original crew without a new rest period.

Nope, they went back to the hotel. Ask yourself, would you be willing to go back to sleep in the Shangri La multiple times in your career? :)

Lockheed
05-04-2018, 08:10 AM
Almost took the bait
Almost

vroll1800
05-06-2018, 08:01 PM
Troll bait.

No troll bait. Just trying to illustrate one difference between ULCC and ACMI ops for the benefit of the OP.

In this case, the crew* and the airplane were the only one for many miles (and hours flight time) around. Versus a similar event happening at , say, Jet Blue out of JFK. In that case, they'd either get a new aircraft to continue to original destination, or flight would be canceled, passengers booked on another flight. Flight crew sent home with pay, or reassigned to another sequence with equal or greater pay.

ACMI, you're often IT effectively chained to the airplane. The followup questions are more interesting. Did company say to crew upon landing "OK, fellas, go to hotel, get 16 hours rest, and report back to continue flight." OR was crew strung along for several hours, and upon realizing that problem wouldn't be solved so quickly sent crew to hotel to get minimum rest prior to continuing flight ?
Even if the later scenario didn't actually happen, prospective Acmi pilots can expect such a scenario to happen several times. "Plane will be fixed in 2 hours" ranks up there with "check is in the mail" for truthfulness and accuracy.

I brought up the 24 hour question, because the 24 hour issue was repeatedly cited as one of K4 pilot's major beef with 1224 leadership. Might Bishkek be one of those places where K4 crew might want to exercise the 24 hour double crew duty day to "get out of Dodge ?"

Lastly, I didn't post avherald link just to pick on K4. It just happened to be the most immediate incident available to illustrate the potential differences in duty days between Acmi carriers, and ULCC hub and spoke ops.

* I'm guessing if a different crew flew the aircraft into HKG that they were not available to fly delayed leg because they were in crew rest, or they already had (or were slated to) commercial home or somewhere else for another assignment.

maxjet
05-07-2018, 06:32 AM
No troll bait. Just trying to illustrate one difference between ULCC and ACMI ops for the benefit of the OP.

In this case, the crew* and the airplane were the only one for many miles (and hours flight time) around. Versus a similar event happening at , say, Jet Blue out of JFK. In that case, they'd either get a new aircraft to continue to original destination, or flight would be canceled, passengers booked on another flight. Flight crew sent home with pay, or reassigned to another sequence with equal or greater pay.

ACMI, you're often IT effectively chained to the airplane. The followup questions are more interesting. Did company say to crew upon landing "OK, fellas, go to hotel, get 16 hours rest, and report back to continue flight." OR was crew strung along for several hours, and upon realizing that problem wouldn't be solved so quickly sent crew to hotel to get minimum rest prior to continuing flight ?
Even if the later scenario didn't actually happen, prospective Acmi pilots can expect such a scenario to happen several times. "Plane will be fixed in 2 hours" ranks up there with "check is in the mail" for truthfulness and accuracy.

I brought up the 24 hour question, because the 24 hour issue was repeatedly cited as one of K4 pilot's major beef with 1224 leadership. Might Bishkek be one of those places where K4 crew might want to exercise the 24 hour double crew duty day to "get out of Dodge ?"

Lastly, I didn't post avherald link just to pick on K4. It just happened to be the most immediate incident available to illustrate the potential differences in duty days between Acmi carriers, and ULCC hub and spoke ops.

* I'm guessing if a different crew flew the aircraft into HKG that they were not available to fly delayed leg because they were in crew rest, or they already had (or were slated to) commercial home or somewhere else for another assignment.

What exactly is your point here? Could the worse case senecio you are proposing happen? Yes it happens at times. You go to the hotel and get legal rest. Isnít that what legal rest is for?

Every type of operation has its problems that irritate each of us. For me as a pax pilot it was having to leave late, catch up to ontime and then, have to do a plane swap at the hub, with an aircraft that was late. That was way more tiring to me than having the company tell me to go back to the hotel for 10 or 11 hours of rest.

I have never flown better aircraft in regards to maintenance in my career. Our FMEís ďownĒ that airplane and take pride in its performance.

When I arrived at Kalitta in 2011, it was my final surrender to the ďdark sideĒ. I had friends that had worked there from 2007 and had asked me to come over. I let posters like you, convince me that ACMI was a horrible end to a career. I was a moron for allowing an internet website to influence my career choice. I should have come in 2007. K4 was the best kept secret in aviation back then. Now that they pay a living wage it is even better.

However, if you are: a whiner, a person who cannot be flexible about changes in their schedule when at work, have lots of family issues that need you at home, have been an FO your entire career and cannot make the leap to being in charge when you fly, please stay away. You will not be happy with us and we will not be happy with you.

Not everyone is cut out to be an international ACMI Pilot. It is the most difficult flying you can experience. Not because of the destination or the company. Because you never get to fly. After a month off you are up to bat. A little cross wind of 10 kts, bit of gust on arrival, you with little confidence in your skills. What happens next? Instead of letting the aircraft autoland, you decide to leave the AP an AT on until you break out at 300 feet. You kick them off, forgetting that the rudder was being trimmed by the multiple autopilots. Wing drops, you correct, forget to flair and turn off the AT, you can write the rest.

You will be at the top of your flying skills after IOE. It is all down hill until you upgrade.

vroll1800
05-21-2018, 09:53 PM
However, if you are: a whiner, a person who cannot be flexible about changes in their schedule when at work, have lots of family issues that need you at home, have been an FO your entire career and cannot make the leap to being in charge when you fly, please stay away. You will not be happy with us and we will not be happy with you.
.

I'm not sure if that paragraph was directed at me. If it was, thanks for making insinuations about me without knowing me, or checking my profile. (The later would have dispelled at least one of your notions.)

Furthermore, I don't think prioritizing the innate human desire to exercise a certain degree of control over one's life makes one a crybaby, or prima donna.
OP mentioned that he found cargo airlines (K4 and 5Y in particular wrt this thread) to be interesting. Besides the boilerplate cargo ops vs passenger ops, he may have found home basing, and a long singular stretch off to be appealing. The later singular stretch off is the velvet glove.

The 16 to 17 day stretch on the road is the "hammer." Your A#$ belongs to company during that stretch. So, you're "ON" 1-16 June, but would like to have the 11th- 16th off and pick up 6 days somewhere else. Good luck with that. ACMI schedules are made with the assumption that you will be on that 16 day stretch.
Contrast this with many ULCC posts on tremendous flexibility, and ability to trade, pick up , and drop trips.

Also several ULCC posts talk of working less than 16 days, often 12 to 14. Again, on that 16 day stretch you're at company disposal. There will be some nice layovers (you'll need at least 2 - 24 hour blocks off in the 16 day tour.) You'll also likely get multiple time zone/body clock changes. Are you required to monitor company cell phone on layovers ?

Whereas on passenger side, ~ 1/4 or so of working days involve either a post 1500 show time, or a pre 1300 release. If you live in domicile, several chances to squeeze in a tennis game prior to your 3-4 day trip, or catch an afternoon baseball game upon completion of your work block. Furthermore, can tweak your schedule to get more AM's or PM's depending on whether you're a morning or night person.

OP should weigh whether he enjoys having some flexible control in his schedule, or if like maxjet can readily accept being at company disposal for 16 straight days, often on polar opposite body clock cycles within a few days.

maxjet
05-21-2018, 11:02 PM
I'm not sure if that paragraph was directed at me. If it was, thanks for making insinuations about me without knowing me, or checking my profile. (The later would have dispelled at least one of your notions.)

Furthermore, I don't think prioritizing the innate human desire to exercise a certain degree of control over one's life makes one a crybaby, or prima donna.
OP mentioned that he found cargo airlines (K4 and 5Y in particular wrt this thread) to be interesting. Besides the boilerplate cargo ops vs passenger ops, he may have found home basing, and a long singular stretch off to be appealing. The later singular stretch off is the velvet glove.

The 16 to 17 day stretch on the road is the "hammer." Your A#$ belongs to company during that stretch. So, you're "ON" 1-16 June, but would like to have the 11th- 16th off and pick up 6 days somewhere else. Good luck with that. ACMI schedules are made with the assumption that you will be on that 16 day stretch.
Contrast this with many ULCC posts on tremendous flexibility, and ability to trade, pick up , and drop trips.

Also several ULCC posts talk of working less than 16 days, often 12 to 14. Again, on that 16 day stretch you're at company disposal. There will be some nice layovers (you'll need at least 2 - 24 hour blocks off in the 16 day tour.) You'll also likely get multiple time zone/body clock changes. Are you required to monitor company cell phone on layovers ?

Whereas on passenger side, ~ 1/4 or so of working days involve either a post 1500 show time, or a pre 1300 release. If you live in domicile, several chances to squeeze in a tennis game prior to your 3-4 day trip, or catch an afternoon baseball game upon completion of your work block. Furthermore, can tweak your schedule to get more AM's or PM's depending on whether you're a morning or night person.

OP should weigh whether he enjoys having some flexible control in his schedule, or if like maxjet can readily accept being at company disposal for 16 straight days, often on polar opposite body clock cycles within a few days.

The paragraph you refer to was not about you. You are right I don’t know you. What my question for you was, is what was your point? You have now answered that question. The way you originally wrote your comments was to me, unnecessarily critical. Every job in every industry has its good and bad. If the bad out weighs the good, and you have a choice, you move on. If the opposite is true, you stay. Things in ACMI are neither good nor bad. They just are. You either accept this or move on.



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