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View Full Version : SWA Hourly rate conversion


coopervane
04-18-2018, 11:16 PM
Hey guys,

Running a spreadsheet to look at earnings between airlines. Obviously a straight 75 hour X hourly rate wonít work for Southwest because of your pay structure.

Can anyone suggest a conversion or ďeffective hourly rateĒ adjustment to help with real W2 amounts?


CA1900
04-18-2018, 11:28 PM
Can anyone suggest a conversion or “effective hourly rate” adjustment to help with real W2 amounts?

I use 1.15 TFP per hour as a pretty good conversion rate.

So 90 TFP, the reserve guarantee, would convert to 78.26 hours, for example.

Similarly, $69.34 per TFP, our first year rate, would convert to $79.75 per hour.

WHACKMASTER
04-19-2018, 12:03 AM
Additionally, most line holders average 107-110 TFP monthly. You can do a lot more but not much less if weíre talking realistically (unless youíre really senior and can get the primo trips that others will take as there is no outright drops).

Reserves credit more than the minimum in most months. Expect to spend a few months on reserve in all but the most senior bases.


ANGFlight81
04-19-2018, 05:43 AM
1.15 is good for a rough estimate however there are many variables. I would just take our tfp and multiply it by the amount of trips.

We average 17-19 days off a month and average tfp for pilot is 107 per month. Some months more, the meager months as low as 90. Iím very junior and average 120-130 a month and still maintain at least 16-17 days off a month.

Schedules are very flexible here. Get good with elitt. Before anyone tears me up, no you cannot just ďdropĒ trips here.

SrfNFly227
04-19-2018, 06:11 AM
Are the rates shown in the Southwest profile page the straight pay amounts, or have they been converted already? It shows $79 for first year, so Iím guessing that means itís already been converted.

slimothy
04-19-2018, 06:58 AM
Are the rates shown in the Southwest profile page the straight pay amounts, or have they been converted already? It shows $79 for first year, so Iím guessing that means itís already been converted.

That is somebodyís conversion, not sure how accurate it is. But hourly rates are only a factor in a much larger equation for figuring out how much money youíll make. Work rules play as big a roll as anything to determining your QOL.

SrfNFly227
04-19-2018, 07:12 AM
That is somebody’s conversion, not sure how accurate it is. But hourly rates are only a factor in a much larger equation for figuring out how much money you’ll make. Work rules play as big a roll as anything to determining your QOL.

Thank you for the quick reply. I flew 121 for 4 years, so I understand that hourly rates are only part of the equation. Knowing them gives a good minimum though for family budgeting reasons should I be lucky enough to get the call.

RJSAviator76
04-19-2018, 07:43 AM
Except on reserve, unlike at other airlines, nobody makes the "minimum" here. You can easily count on 105-115 TFP per month while on reserve here even though you'll start with 90 or 96 TFP in a month depending if it's a 30 or 31-day month.

The people making the least money here are the lineholders who only fly their schedule and don't tweak it at all. They're the ones you'd apply the "80 x hourly rate" to and be somewhat close.

BZC17
04-19-2018, 12:48 PM
For christ sakes!! The op asked for a conversion rate not a contract comparison. Give him the standard 1.15 +/- .02 and you are good. The fact that people average more has no relevance. We short change ourselves so much in this profession by adding qualifiers.
We make less per hour than Delta, United and American depending on the month. You make significantly less your first 4-5 years. (Dirty little secret) After that the pay disparity is not as significant but noticeable.
Realize that there is a min pay guarantee for a reason. Bad economic downturns could force you to be at guarantee.
Donít get me wrong, Swa is a great place to work. We should be the highest 737 narrow body pilot in the industry for the amount of money we generate. You are shooting yourself in the foot with the ďlook at my w-2 argument.Ē

Rant off/

Proximity
04-19-2018, 01:04 PM
Give him the standard 1.15 +/- .02 and you are good. The fact that people average more has no relevance.

It's completely relevant since the OP is trying to compare airlines.

Our rates for FOs years 1-5 are low but it is very true that at SWA you'll do better then guarantee on reserve. This doesn't happen at the other big 3 so it's something to consider when making a comparison. Reserve does have some negatives here but we do make out very well on reserve pay.

RJSAviator76
04-19-2018, 07:26 PM
For christ sakes!! The op asked for a conversion rate not a contract comparison. Give him the standard 1.15 +/- .02 and you are good. The fact that people average more has no relevance.

"The standard 1.15 +/- .02" of what? We no longer have traditional reserve monthly guarantee since we signed the current contract. Fly 2-3 trips a month at legacy, and you're getting your min guarantee. Fly it here at Southwest, and who knows what you're getting, but it's definitely higher than what you started the month with. I'd say that's highly relevant when drawing comparisons.

BZC17
04-19-2018, 09:52 PM
" Fly it here at Southwest, and who knows what you're getting, but it's definitely higher than what you started the month with. I'd say that's highly relevant when drawing comparisons.

I guess if you are going to live on reserve for the rest of your career. Line holders on the fo side are not getting the re routes/ jaís as much as in years past. (Thankfully)
Sorry to hijack the thread. I just feel there is a little too much kool aid being represented here. Flying 120-130 trips a month on a regular basis should not be what you base your career off of.

ANGFlight81
04-20-2018, 01:08 AM
I guess if you are going to live on reserve for the rest of your career. Line holders on the fo side are not getting the re routes/ jaís as much as in years past. (Thankfully)
Sorry to hijack the thread. I just feel there is a little too much kool aid being represented here. Flying 120-130 trips a month on a regular basis should not be what you base your career off of.

Interesting. Well, 90tfp next month 19 off. Plan on grabbing a premium trip and bumping it to 120...with picking up Iíll still have more days off than friends at legacies and make a lot more too.

Thanks for the tip, dad.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 05:58 AM
I guess if you are going to live on reserve for the rest of your career. Line holders on the fo side are not getting the re routes/ jaís as much as in years past. (Thankfully)
Sorry to hijack the thread. I just feel there is a little too much kool aid being represented here. Flying 120-130 trips a month on a regular basis should not be what you base your career off of.

:D:D:D

Keep fighting that good fight! We need that "hourly" to go up more.

at6d
04-20-2018, 08:55 AM
Interesting. Well, 90tfp next month 19 off. Plan on grabbing a premium trip and bumping it to 120...with picking up Iíll still have more days off than friends at legacies and make a lot more too.

Thanks for the tip, dad.

Good luck. Iíve bid on over 50 premium trips in the last couple months with no luck.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 09:06 AM
Good luck. Iíve bid on over 50 premium trips in the last couple months with no luck.



Do you bid on all DOT and HOT trips? Iíve been able to get premium last month and this month even being over the cap...

at6d
04-20-2018, 09:15 AM
Sure did. I didnít bid anything this month, but the last two I got zero. Also, I only bid in base...maybe that was a mistake.

BZC17
04-20-2018, 09:24 AM
:D:D:D

Keep fighting that good fight! We need that "hourly" to go up more.

So you are not interested in more pay? Please stay away from the union at all costs. Your type of thinking is how we got so far behind in wages/total comp pre last contract.

I love this place but call a spade a spade. You make money on reserve and you can pick up first year but after that itís work to pick up. Itís being on your phone swapping trips and bidding open time. Itís picking up out of base and commuting. Itís extra time you are away from your family. A normal person with normal family commitments is not going to average 120-130 trips for very long and still have a family.

SlipKid
04-20-2018, 09:45 AM
For christ sakes!! The op asked for a conversion rate not a contract comparison. Give him the standard 1.15 +/- .02 and you are good. The fact that people average more has no relevance. We short change ourselves so much in this profession by adding qualifiers.
We make less per hour than Delta, United and American depending on the month. You make significantly less your first 4-5 years. (Dirty little secret) After that the pay disparity is not as significant but noticeable.
Realize that there is a min pay guarantee for a reason. Bad economic downturns could force you to be at guarantee.
Donít get me wrong, Swa is a great place to work. We should be the highest 737 narrow body pilot in the industry for the amount of money we generate. You are shooting yourself in the foot with the ďlook at my w-2 argument.Ē

Rant off/

Amen brother!

SlipKid
04-20-2018, 09:49 AM
Good luck. Iíve bid on over 50 premium trips in the last couple months with no luck.

It should pick up again in June.

FWIW, I was genuinely surprised when I snagged a 3 day premium trip a few weeks ago. The senior guys have been scarfing up most of the open time at straight pay for the last few months. :eek:

SlipKid
04-20-2018, 09:55 AM
So you are not interested in more pay? Please stay away from the union at all costs. Your type of thinking is how we got so far behind in wages/total comp pre last contract.

Exactly. I've been hearing the same "my W2 is bigger than my friend's at another major" for over 2 decades. It's definitely gotten better in the current contract, so these new guys don't really have a valid frame of reference. Think about how much better we could've done had we not had this attitude stinking up the place for the last 30 years?

I love this place but call a spade a spade. You make money on reserve and you can pick up first year but after that it’s work to pick up. It’s being on your phone swapping trips and bidding open time. It’s picking up out of base and commuting. It’s extra time you are away from your family. A normal person with normal family commitments is not going to average 120-130 trips for very long and still have a family.


It's definitely a grind. I spend WAY too much time optimizing my schedule every month, and I am even not trying for record TFP. Other than the summer months, where I hit the POT hard, I rarely fly more than 100tfp and even then, I rarely work more than 12 days a month.

The upside is that we CAN do it. For now. The way things are going in the interest of "fairness", this group is not gonna be happy until 84% of us vote in PBS.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 11:14 AM
So you are not interested in more pay? Please stay away from the union at all costs. Your type of thinking is how we got so far behind in wages/total comp pre last contract.



I love this place but call a spade a spade. You make money on reserve and you can pick up first year but after that itís work to pick up. Itís being on your phone swapping trips and bidding open time. Itís picking up out of base and commuting. Itís extra time you are away from your family. A normal person with normal family commitments is not going to average 120-130 trips for very long and still have a family.



It seems youíre not understanding the correlation or importance of work rules vs. pay rate.

Since the topic here was reserve, letís talk about it:

Delta reserve: ALV-2 hours. Letís call it 78 hours x $88/hour or $6,864/month. If Iím not mistaken, their reserve obligation is 18 days a month.

United reserve is 73 hours, but I believe they get more credit if they get converted to short call, so letís call it 76 hours x $85/hour or $6,460/month. I believe they also are on the hook 18 days a month.

American reserve is 76 hours (all short call) at $88/hour which comes out to $6,688/month. I believe theyíre also 18 days on reserve per month.

None of their pilots make anything above those numbers while on reserve unless they actually go over their guarantee.

Now here come the underpaid industry-laggards at Southwest with our converted rate of $79/hour using 79 hour ďguaranteeĒ as listed on APC or $6,241/month and we are on the hook 15 or 16 days a month with at least 15 off on reserve.

Money-wise... unlike at every other airline and unlike how it was here prior to this contract, our reserve pilots get paid extra every time they show up to work. Iíve seen first year guys on reserve here do as high as 135 TFP without picking up, but more commonly between 100 and 115 TFP. Letís go with 108 TFP or 94 hours as a mean figure using converted figures. 94 hours x $79/hour comes out to $7,426/month, compared with Deltaís $6,864; Americanís $6,688; Unitedís $6,460.

Hourly rates vs. work rules....

So when I say I want you to keep up a good fight for that ďhourlyĒ, I really mean it. ;)

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 11:18 AM
Sure did. I didnít bid anything this month, but the last two I got zero. Also, I only bid in base...maybe that was a mistake.



Must be base-specific or I must have gotten lucky. Also, I generally donít pick up out-of-base unless the trip has a DH through my domicile.

As Slip says... should get a little easier as the summer approaches.

Warhawg01
04-20-2018, 11:52 AM
To RJSís point, twice last year I hit 130 TFP in a month just being on reserve. No pickups. And one four day block at the end of one of those spent from the couch...in June.

Other months I was on reserve: 112, 112, 112, 97.

Loon
04-20-2018, 12:41 PM
Bottom line is you can make as little as you want and you can make as much as you want. The work is not hard. If you want to compare apples to oranges, fine. At the end of the day(or year) it's the w2 that counts.
"Honey I made 50k less than a swa pilot of equal stature, but I made more per hour!" Says the delta guy.

Money talks and bull s&%t walks

e6bpilot
04-20-2018, 12:52 PM
This subject has been beaten to death.
To generalize - you have the opportunity to make more at SWA, but you may work harder to make that happen.
Our trips are more dense, less about the overnight, and more about making widgets for the company. Along the way, there are some fairly sweet deals for pilots interested in making money and going home to have time off.
You can fly your line, but you are missing a great opportunity to tune your schedule to your desires.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 01:01 PM
Just to be clear... the topic was reserve as thatís where everyone starts. This has nothing to do with picking up extra, but merely points out the importance of work rules vs. fixating on rates.

BZC17
04-20-2018, 01:45 PM
Just to be clear... the topic was reserve as thatís where everyone starts. This has nothing to do with picking up extra, but merely points out the importance of work rules vs. fixating on rates.

I think you turned it into reserve. The op wanted an effective hourly rate. Look at the thread title. You started adding all qualifiers with reserve, picking up extra. Thats the only reason I jumped in.
No one bids reserve if they can hold a line.

Thunder1
04-20-2018, 02:01 PM
So you are not interested in more pay? Please stay away from the union at all costs. Your type of thinking is how we got so far behind in wages/total comp pre last contract.

I love this place but call a spade a spade. You make money on reserve and you can pick up first year but after that it’s work to pick up. It’s being on your phone swapping trips and bidding open time. It’s picking up out of base and commuting. It’s extra time you are away from your family. A normal person with normal family commitments is not going to average 120-130 trips for very long and still have a family.

BZC17 -- I have to call BS on your post above. I have averaged 130+ TFP per month for the last 5 years here living in domicile AND at the end of the year I add up my total days worked and it has never been over 15 days a month. I spend maybe 2 hours a week optimizing my schedule to go from a line award of 90-100 depending on the time of year to over 130 by spending 2 hours a week -- time well spent? I'd say so.
The last 4 months I've average 155+ TFP working 12-14 actual days by playing the FO sit at home on reserve game because we are overmanned on FO's right now.
I have a great family life AND do 130+ every month and never work more than 14-15 days a month. It is easily do-able if you are smart enough to live in domicile. :)
And I never pick up out of base unless it is a JA trip that someone wants to give away -- I'll commute in for Double Time pay!

Peacock
04-20-2018, 02:08 PM
I did 147 tfp last month (35 at second year pay) as a first year guy on reserve. I was away from home 8 nights.

BZC17
04-20-2018, 02:43 PM
BZC17 -- I have to call BS on your post above. I have averaged 130+ TFP per month for the last 5 years here living in domicile AND at the end of the year I add up my total days worked and it has never been over 15 days a month. I spend maybe 2 hours a week optimizing my schedule to go from a line award of 90-100 depending on the time of year to over 130 by spending 2 hours a week -- time well spent? I'd say so.
The last 4 months I've average 155+ TFP working 12-14 actual days by playing the FO sit at home on reserve game because we are overmanned on FO's right now.
I have a great family life AND do 130+ every month and never work more than 14-15 days a month. It is easily do-able if you are smart enough to live in domicile. :)
And I never pick up out of base unless it is a JA trip that someone wants to give away -- I'll commute in for Double Time pay!

Thatís great! Iím glad your able to do this. I believe it is different for every domicile.
Iím 45% in domicile and there is definitely not as much premium as there used to be. If I want to have a blow out month I can. It does cost me being a maybe at a lot of life events.

My original point was the average is 107 trip. Half of the pilots here are working at or less than 107. Your lifestyle might dictate more or less.

The ****ing contest with legacy reserve is silly. They go to work half as much as you do and they have bigger equipment.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 02:47 PM
... and they have bigger equipment.


So THATíS what itís all about... disregard everything I previously said. ;) :D

BZC17
04-20-2018, 02:54 PM
So THATíS what itís all about... disregard everything I previously said. ;) :D

Itís the one thing we donít talk about here. We only compare ourselves to other narrow body equipment. Wrongly I might add.

RJSAviator76
04-20-2018, 09:16 PM
Itís the one thing we donít talk about here. We only compare ourselves to other narrow body equipment. Wrongly I might add.

How would you go about convincing the management to agree to widebody rates at a narrow body airline?

Thunder1
04-20-2018, 09:36 PM
Thatís great! Iím glad your able to do this. I believe it is different for every domicile.
Iím 45% in domicile and there is definitely not as much premium as there used to be. If I want to have a blow out month I can. It does cost me being a maybe at a lot of life events.

My original point was the average is 107 trip. Half of the pilots here are working at or less than 107. Your lifestyle might dictate more or less.

The ****ing contest with legacy reserve is silly. They go to work half as much as you do and they have bigger equipment.

BZC17
I'm similar seniority with you. Agreed on the less premium on the FO side. Not a surprise when we hire 1700 new FOs in '16 & 17' and only 500-sh Capt upgraded during that time -- you're going to be fat on FOs for a while until they catch up on the Capt upgrades. They are trying to do that this year by doing 550-ish this year and I assume similar next year. So, just like at every airline you can choose to just fly your line they give or you can try to actively manage your schedule. I choose the latter. The techniques used depend on the time of the year and your seniority and events such as being overmanned on FO's right now. So, the game to play now IMO is to trade your trips for reserve -- I will end this month with 8 days of reserve not being used for 48 TFP of sitting at home.
your last statement may hold true for a legacy wide-body FO that lives in domicile. But, alas, I knew when I went to SWA that wide-bodies were a long way away, if ever. So, it is a fools errand to compare SWA lifestyle to a legacy guy on a wide body. In my circle of friends - a narrow body, legacy, Capt or FO is working the same or more days than I am.
The OP just wanted to know what to expect for pay -- I think I and others gave him some useful information. Cheers!

BZC17
04-20-2018, 09:53 PM
How would you go about convincing the management to agree to widebody rates at a narrow body airline?

Iím not saying it would be easy. It would have to follow the ups model. (No matter what we fly we have the same pay rate)
You could sell it to the company by guaranteeing rates in case they ever wanted to upgauge to bigger planes. It would/could force the company to push into new/farther destinations. (Btw this is all post Kelly, heís too risk averse)

We donít have a strong enough union though. Management knows that.

BZC17
04-20-2018, 10:10 PM
BZC17
I'm similar seniority with you. Agreed on the less premium on the FO side. Not a surprise when we hire 1700 new FOs in '16 & 17' and only 500-sh Capt upgraded during that time -- you're going to be fat on FOs for a while until they catch up on the Capt upgrades. They are trying to do that this year by doing 550-ish this year and I assume similar next year. So, just like at every airline you can choose to just fly your line they give or you can try to actively manage your schedule. I choose the latter. The techniques used depend on the time of the year and your seniority and events such as being overmanned on FO's right now. So, the game to play now IMO is to trade your trips for reserve -- I will end this month with 8 days of reserve not being used for 48 TFP of sitting at home.
your last statement may hold true for a legacy wide-body FO that lives in domicile. But, alas, I knew when I went to SWA that wide-bodies were a long way away, if ever. So, it is a fools errand to compare SWA lifestyle to a legacy guy on a wide body. In my circle of friends - a narrow body, legacy, Capt or FO is working the same or more days than I am.
The OP just wanted to know what to expect for pay -- I think I and others gave him some useful information. Cheers!
I just wanted a fair/honest representation of Swa. I was tired of the rose colored glasses that have been portrayed by rj and ang for the better part of six months. Itís a great job, just like every other legacy. If you can live in base it should be a top choice.
I have no desire to fly long haul. (been there done that by the name) I've also flown with too many captains that need to fly 120 trips a month just to make ends meet. If you are conservative going in youíll never be disappointed.

Thunder1
04-20-2018, 11:39 PM
I just wanted a fair/honest representation of Swa. I was tired of the rose colored glasses that have been portrayed by rj and ang for the better part of six months. Itís a great job, just like every other legacy. If you can live in base it should be a top choice.
I have no desire to fly long haul. (been there done that by the name) I've also flown with too many captains that need to fly 120 trips a month just to make ends meet. If you are conservative going in youíll never be disappointed.

Agreed...it's a great job but so are the legacies. In reality most guys won't have a choice and will take the first major airline that offers them a job. Yep, I also hate the long haul stuff -- did plenty of that in a former life. I get restless on anything greater than 3 hrs.
Conservative is the way to go -- plan to live on 90 TFP or less per month and the rest is gravy.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 06:25 AM
BZC17 -- I have to call BS on your post above. I have averaged 130+ TFP per month for the last 5 years here living in domicile AND at the end of the year I add up my total days worked and it has never been over 15 days a month. I spend maybe 2 hours a week optimizing my schedule to go from a line award of 90-100 depending on the time of year to over 130 by spending 2 hours a week -- time well spent? I'd say so.
The last 4 months I've average 155+ TFP working 12-14 actual days by playing the FO sit at home on reserve game because we are overmanned on FO's right now.
I have a great family life AND do 130+ every month and never work more than 14-15 days a month. It is easily do-able if you are smart enough to live in domicile. :)
And I never pick up out of base unless it is a JA trip that someone wants to give away -- I'll commute in for Double Time pay!


You're averaging 12 tfp per day on reserve?

Uh, OK.........:rolleyes:

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 06:37 AM
Reserve can be pretty lucrative Slip, but commuters generally stay away from it.

Commuting is a very expensive proposition as your opportunity cost/uncompensated time spent on airplanes and away from home is probably into 7 figures of missed/lost income over the span of your career.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 06:43 AM
I just wanted a fair/honest representation of Swa. I was tired of the rose colored glasses that have been portrayed by rj and ang for the better part of six months.


Show me what wasnít factual... is it perhaps that I donít whine incessantly about our ďhourly ratesĒ being ďlowerĒ than our legacy counterpartsí? Iíve merely pointed out that the work rules matter probably way more so than the rates, otherwise, weíll have crowds leaving for Omni...

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 06:51 AM
Reserve can be pretty lucrative Slip, but commuters generally stay away from it.

I didn't realize that the reserve improvements in our contract included double time for every reserve day. I guess I need to re read the contract. :cool:

Commuting is a very expensive proposition as your opportunity cost/uncompensated time spent on airplanes and away from home is probably into 7 figures of missed/lost income over the span of your career.


You're telling me? :D I've been telling folks this very thing for decades.

I didn't realize that there was a clause in our contract that pays double time+ for non commuters sitting reserve . Since I don't do reserve, and unless we do some kind of long call, never will, I am not up on that part of the contract. ;)

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 06:54 AM
Show me what wasnít factual... is it perhaps that I donít whine incessantly about our ďhourly ratesĒ being ďlowerĒ than our legacy counterpartsí? Iíve merely pointed out that the work rules matter probably way more so than the rates, otherwise, weíll have crowds leaving for Omni...

Why don't we have both industry leading hourly pay AND our current work rules?

I'll give you a hint...... The answer is in this and many other threads. :eek:

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 06:57 AM
Come on Slip... you know better.

Living in base means trading your line for reserve blocks with reserve commuters whoíd rather fly than risk paying for hotels or even bidding it in DOT when OT pickings are slim.

Daily reassignment pay during the ole bait n switch also helps quite a bit. Personal best 3-day reserve was around 35 TFP simply due to scheduling piling on assignments and pushing back my return back to base.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 07:04 AM
Why don't we have both industry leading hourly pay AND our current work rules?



I'll give you a hint...... The answer is in this and many other threads. :eek:


Slip, we were the first at bat, and our rates were industry leading at the time TA2 was announced. We were leapfrogged by Delta when they got their TA after we started voting. United matched. American was left in the dust until their CEO decided to match.

I know itís not a sexy narrative, but thatís what happened.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 07:12 AM
Come on Slip... you know better.

Yup. I do. :D I suspect you do too. ;)

Living in base means trading your line for reserve blocks with reserve commuters whoíd rather fly than risk paying for hotels or even bidding it in DOT when OT pickings are slim.

I should pick up some of these 12 tfp reserve days! Sounds very lucrative. I don't live in domicile though, so I am, apparently, not eligible.

Daily reassignment pay during the ole bait n switch also helps quite a bit. Personal best 3-day reserve was around 35 TFP simply due to scheduling piling on assignments and pushing back my return back to base.

You get bait and switched on reserve too? I thought you were already on reserve, when you're on reserve? I guess that explains how Thunder averaged 12+ tfp per day for 4 months. In the winter, no less. He must get bait and switched every single day! ;)

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 07:18 AM
Slip, we were the first at bat, and our rates were industry leading at the time TA2 was announced. We were leapfrogged by Delta when they got their TA after we started voting. United matched. American was left in the dust until their CEO decided to match.

I know it’s not a sexy narrative, but that’s what happened.

What about the all the "we already make enough money" concessionary votes before you got hired that put us behind in just about every measurable way?

We finally had a union that represented the pilots instead of management, with a goal for a change, and the momentum to achieve it. We blew it. As usual.

That said, with the level of resolve this pilot group has, I am surprised we got as much as we did this time. At least I can work more to make up the difference. :p

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 07:33 AM
What about the all the "we already make enough money" concessionary votes before you got hired that put us behind in just about every measurable way?



We finally had a goal, and we blew it. As usual.



That said, with the level of resolve this pilot group has, I am surprised we got as much as we did this time. At least I can work more to make up the difference. :p



No Slip, we didnít blow it nearly as bad as you think. We missed out on some things, LTD/insurance stuff comes to mind. Thatís a big ticket item to me and thatís why I voted no.

But in reality, you donít publish the Platform, go to the Company and say... you can afford it, now pay up! You can try, but that right there handicapped us. We didnít ask for the moon and settled for the Platform. We asked for the Platform and settled for over a billion short of it. Isnít that how negotiations work?

In my opinion, we may have screwed ourselves by publishing a reasonable document instead of a rather lofty one, but then again we needed to rally the membership, and the Platform did accomplish that. I do think Jon and the NC made a mistake of indicating how they were voting because of the ďif itís good for Jon, itís good for meĒ crowd. It should have been a simple presentation consisting of pros, cons, what was gained, what was lost and let the chips fall.

I donít think weíll be going back to the old ways. You guys were still under the influence of Herbís way that a handshake was good enough. Gary clearly ended that era by lying to us and getting the SWAPA he deserved. I just donít see us going back to SWAPA 1.0 ways.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 07:46 AM
No Slip, we didn’t blow it nearly as bad as you think. We missed out on some things, LTD/insurance stuff comes to mind. That’s a big ticket item to me and that’s why I voted no.

I agree about the LTD, but that was not even close to the only reason for rejecting it.

But in reality, you don’t publish the Platform, go to the Company and say... you can afford it, now pay up! You can try, but that right there handicapped us. We didn’t ask for the moon and settled for the Platform. We asked for the Platform and settled for over a billion short of it. Isn’t that how negotiations work?

Agreed.

In my opinion, we may have screwed ourselves by publishing a reasonable document instead of a rather lofty one, but then again we needed to rally the membership, and the Platform did accomplish that. I do think Jon and the NC made a mistake of indicating how they were voting because of the “if it’s good for Jon, it’s good for me” crowd. It should have been a simple presentation consisting of pros, cons, what was gained, what was lost and let the chips fall.

Membership polling showed that "we" were not willing to do what it took to get any closer to platform, which is why Jon "endorsed" it. He knew that a strike vote with this pilot group would've been the kiss of death.

I don’t think we’ll be going back to the old ways. You guys were still under the influence of Herb’s way that a handshake was good enough. Gary clearly ended that era by lying to us and getting the SWAPA he deserved. I just don’t see us going back to SWAPA 1.0 ways.

LOL.... It took over a decade for GK to (almost) get the union he deserved. Now, we just need the membership he deserves! :D

That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough:). Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work.

This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.

e6bpilot
04-21-2018, 08:34 AM
The contract that we voted in was a huge improvement over the last contract and over the laughable TA1. Could we have gone the distance and maybe gained some improvements? Yes, but the improvements would have been incremental and would probably have been outweighed by the time and therefore money lost doing it.

Just look at pay per day for reserves. What a huge and underrated gain at the time. Reserve used to be like a leper colony and now you see guys picking up reserve blocks left and right. How much money has that made our pilot group? I bet it will be in the millions soon if not already.

Meanwhile, the same no voters would have still been entrenched and whining like they still do now in their safe spaces (Prune) because the koolie snowflake yes voters gave away the store.

No, reason and logic won the day and we walked away from the table with a fair deal. Timing dictated Delta and then United leapfrogging us, but that same timing should be on our side next go around.

Did we get everything I wanted in this contract? Not by a long shot, but thatís the downfall of being in this communist working manís paradise union. I donít get everything I want. We achieve what is best for the majority of the members and move on. Same with vacation voting. Funny how the same 5 guys are still shouting voter fraud and election rigging on the swapa forum because we didnít vote what THEY wanted.

Next go around, we are going to be in a better place. How do I know? Look at our union leadership. They arenít taking trips to France or Oshkosh and wearing hats emblazoned with their company names on them. They arenít carrying the companyís water. They are advocating for us, as it should be.

We need some big improvements in the next contract. Pay, of course, but that is such a small part of the secret sauce here. Work rules and pilot disability and associated benefits are my two biggest peeves. No more scope, no PBS, no givebacks.

To answer the OPs question, it depends. The way we make widgets here is so different than most other airlines, it just isnít a fair comparison to say we make x per hour. The 1.15 conversion works out pretty good.

BZC17
04-21-2018, 09:01 AM
Show me what wasnít factual... is it perhaps that I donít whine incessantly about our ďhourly ratesĒ being ďlowerĒ than our legacy counterpartsí? Iíve merely pointed out that the work rules matter probably way more so than the rates, otherwise, weíll have crowds leaving for Omni...

Itís telling that you value your profession less than your peers. I was just making the argument we should have both industry leading pay and work rules.

BZC17
04-21-2018, 09:06 AM
That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough:). Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work.

This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 09:08 AM
Itís telling that you value your profession less than your peers. I was just making the argument we should have both industry leading pay and work rules.



And whereíd I do that?

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 09:19 AM
I agree about the LTD, but that was not even close to the only reason for rejecting it.



Agreed.



Membership polling showed that "we" were not willing to do what it took to get any closer to platform, which is why Jon "endorsed" it. He knew that a strike vote with this pilot group would've been the kiss of death.



LOL.... It took over a decade for GK to (almost) get the union he deserved. Now, we just need the membership he deserves! [emoji3]

That means that folks have to stop embellishing their pay vs. days worked numbers etc.(:cough: T1 :cough:). Whether you actually flew or not, reserve is a day of work.

This stuff plays right into GK's hands, just like it always has. Guys like Myron have been using this argument for as long as I've been here.



Slip, so what do you use as a gauge? Is it ďhourlyĒ rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes ďindustry-leadingĒ in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FOís. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?

What works for you as a commuter wonít necessarily work for those living in base... legacy pilots canít trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder. That may not be worth anything to you. Itís worth a lot to those of us living in base, and itís also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.

Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Letís see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.

coryk
04-21-2018, 09:36 AM
Slip, so what do you use as a gauge? Is it ďhourlyĒ rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes ďindustry-leadingĒ in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FOís. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?

What works for you as a commuter wonít necessarily work for those living in base... legacy pilots canít trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder. That may not be worth anything to you. Itís worth a lot to those of us living in base, and itís also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.

Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Letís see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.

Agree. Pattern bargaining... isn't that the point?

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 09:39 AM
Slip, so what do you use as a gauge?

I used to use pay per day, but as of today, I use 12+ tfp per day of reserve as a gauge. :D

Is it “hourly” rate? Is it W-2? Is it a ratio of days worked/days home vs. pay? Is it nights in own bed vs. pay? What constitutes “industry-leading” in your mind? Omni pays $115/hour or so to first year FO’s. They blow away all of us by a healthy margin..... or do they?

I use pay per commute and endeavor to commute as little as possible. Too bad I can't average 12tfp per day as a commuter.

What works for you as a commuter won’t necessarily work for those living in base...

Apparently. Base dwelling reserve folks average 12+ tfp per day!

In the summer, I can only average around 10 per day flying. The rest of the year, I average about 8-8.5 per day. I guess I am a slacker.


legacy pilots can’t trade their lineholder trips with a reserve holder.

You mean legacy guys can't trade their trips for reserve that pay the equivalent of 12+ tfp on average, like our domicile dwellers can?


That may not be worth anything to you. It’s worth a lot to those of us living in base, and it’s also worth a good bit to junior commuters who are on reserve due to their seniority.

Apparently, it's not worth as much if you commute.

Timing was everything. We did have industry-leading rates at the time TA2 was announced. We got passed. Let’s see what happens in 2020.... or 2025.

Agreed. We had industry leading rates because the rest of the industry's rates plummeted post 9/11. Even after JW got us a 35% pay raise in '02, we were still behind the average until the rest took their hits.

In 2015, we had the perfect environment and opportunity to kill it. As usual, we settled for less than we could've easily achieved. Granted, it wasn't as much less as we usually settle for, but it's still less. 38% of us voted for TA 1. Nothing new around here. I would love to be wrong, but 2020-26 will be more of the same. Mark my words. :eek:

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 10:15 AM
Hereís how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me itís like this:

As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didnít come close despite their hourly rates. Whatís worse, they didnít even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldnít achieve it simply due to their structure.

Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?

As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of ďhourly ratesĒ is a bit disingenuous.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 10:28 AM
Here’s how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me it’s like this:

As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didn’t come close despite their hourly rates. What’s worse, they didn’t even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldn’t achieve it simply due to their structure.

Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?

As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of “hourly rates” is a bit disingenuous.

I rest my case.

Keep convincing yourself and others that we don't need, or even want a higher pay rate. :eek: That strategy has been working great (for management) for at least 2 decades!

BZC17
04-21-2018, 10:36 AM
Hereís how I gauge it Slip... right or wrong, but for me itís like this:

As a first year and second year FO last year, I worked 185 days, and with profit sharing, managed to hit IRS 415c limits and get a pretty nice excess check. My legacy buds of similar seniority didnít come close despite their hourly rates. Whatís worse, they didnít even have an opportunity or choice in the matter. They simply couldnít achieve it simply due to their structure.

Did I work more? Yes, by about 30-35 days. But I also made around 35-40 grand more on W-2 than they did - more if you count retirement/PS. Again, what are we measuring? What will this be worth come retirement?

As I said, all for higher rates and other improvements, but to call us industry laggards solely on account of ďhourly ratesĒ is a bit disingenuous.

No one said we where industry laggards. I was just calling you out that you are way above the average here. Iím not going to go into your scheme. Taking a sample of about 30 boards of senior foís, maybe 3-4 are over 120 for March/April. Most are anywhere from 94-105 with some outliers being in the 87 range.
I voted yes to ta2 because it was the absolute minimum I would take. Going back I think we screwed up on first year pay. Swa was loosing pilots to oalís at a pretty good clip, mostly due to pay. Ta2 increased first year pay rates higher than every other year. We should have held managements feet to the fire and had that increase to all year groups. Swa got a win by fixing first year pay and ignoring the pay disparity 2-5. We had leverage, we just didnít use it.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 11:37 AM
I rest my case.

Keep convincing yourself and others that we don't need, or even want a higher pay rate. :eek: That strategy has been working great (for management) for at least 2 decades!



Itís funny you keep saying that and keep missing my point. My point isnít that we ďdonít need higher pay rate.Ē My point is pretty simple really... #workrulesmatter or something like that. ;)

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 11:49 AM
Itís funny you keep saying that and keep missing my point. My point isnít that we ďdonít need higher pay rate.Ē My point is pretty simple really... #workrulesmatter or something like that. ;)

I haven't missed your point. It's a given that work rules are as or even more important than hourly rate.

What's ironic is that you keep missing my point.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 11:57 AM
No one said we where industry laggards. I was just calling you out that you are way above the average here. Iím not going to go into your scheme. Taking a sample of about 30 boards of senior foís, maybe 3-4 are over 120 for March/April. Most are anywhere from 94-105 with some outliers being in the 87 range.

I voted yes to ta2 because it was the absolute minimum I would take. Going back I think we screwed up on first year pay. Swa was loosing pilots to oalís at a pretty good clip, mostly due to pay. Ta2 increased first year pay rates higher than every other year. We should have held managements feet to the fire and had that increase to all year groups. Swa got a win by fixing first year pay and ignoring the pay disparity 2-5. We had leverage, we just didnít use it.



Youíre right. I generally do above average... because I choose to. I could choose to just fly my line and Iíd be right in the ballpark with my legacy buds, though Iíd work 2-3 days less a month than they do. The fundamental difference between them and me... they simply donít have a choice to get above average. I do. You sampled a group of senior guys. Some value time off, others value a paycheck.

I recently had a captain in the jumpseat who AVERAGED over 200 TFP per month constantly bumping against 1000 in 365. He clearly only cared about making money. No, thank you! SlipKid on the other hand only wants to work 10 days a month or heís calling in fatigued. ;)

I worked under a legacy ALPA contract with sweet pay rates and fantastic retirement.
Our work rules however favored guys like yourself and SlipKid. We could brag about hourly rates with the best of them, but we were capped at 80 hours and had zero choice if we wanted to make more. The choice was made for us.

Would you prefer that? Not me.

Finally, how would you describe how much a first year guy on reserve will make here?

flensr
04-21-2018, 12:40 PM
Finally, how would you describe how much a first year guy on reserve will make here?

Like they were saying above, it depends on a LOT of things. If you're living in base there are tons of ways to fiddle with the schedule and make a lot extra. If you're commuting and just sitting in a hotel because you can't give away your reserve blocks but the company isn't using you, you'll make minimums plus giving a lot away paying for that hotel room or crashpad.

Someone sitting reserve in base who doesn't mind rolling the bones can pick up a lot and if they don't call, getting paid time at home instead of paying to sit in a hotel somewhere.

Plus, flying trips from open time above your original monthly total will get you 2nd year pay for the extra flying, however the details matter and you might end up with straight pay for extra flying depending on how you picked up the extra trip.

So... It depends.

I think $79k for the first year is considered the minimum. Take out taxes and health care and whatever else, add back in 401k direct contribution. Can't add profit sharing for up to 2 yrs, depending on date of hire.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 01:00 PM
I worked under a legacy ALPA contract with sweet pay rates and fantastic retirement.
Our work rules however favored guys like yourself and SlipKid. We could brag about hourly rates with the best of them, but we were capped at 80 hours and had zero choice if we wanted to make more. The choice was made for us.

Would you prefer that? Not me.



Why does it need to be either or?

You're essentially using the "what are you willing to give up for that" (TSMITR) argument now. :eek:

If you want to compare us to legacy contracts, you have to include the fact that they have higher paying airplanes to bid into when they get senior.

You guys are not gonna be junior forever. The more senior you get here, the more you're gonna have to work to keep up with your peers of similar seniority at the legacies.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 01:23 PM
Actually Slip, thatís the problem with that line of thinking. You cannot IMPOSE what you want on the company. It just doesnít work that way. If it did, we would have had the Platform for our contract. Instead, we NEGOTIATED what we have now.

A little difference there, wouldnít you say?

BZC17
04-21-2018, 02:35 PM
Actually Slip, thatís the problem with that line of thinking. You cannot IMPOSE what you want on the company. It just doesnít work that way. If it did, we would have had the Platform for our contract. Instead, we NEGOTIATED what we have now.

A little difference there, wouldnít you say?
Rj donít take this the wrong way. Do you go down to the chief pilots office to hang out before checking in? Do you have an application at the training center to help out with recurrent? Do you feel like you would want to be a check airman? Do you by chance own one of those over the top flag ties that an literally blind you? Would you or could you ever see yourself in a management job? No judgment, just trying to get a frame of reference.

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 02:40 PM
Actually Slip, that’s the problem with that line of thinking. You cannot IMPOSE what you want on the company. It just doesn’t work that way. If it did, we would have had the Platform for our contract. Instead, we NEGOTIATED what we have now.

A little difference there, wouldn’t you say?

LOL......

Really? We can't just IMPOSE our will? Damn, thanks for imparting that nugget of wisdom on me. :rolleyes:

Seriously, 32 years in the business, 4 years of it as an ALPA rep, and you think I am not aware of exactly how this stuff works?

BTW, the latest TA2 proves my "line of thinking" perfectly.

It is an example of a non, zero sum contract, which is what you get when you actually NEGOTIATE instead of "negotiate", like SWApA used to do. They'd take whatever the company offers and sell it to the pilots like it's an amazing deal, and none of them were.

We gave up some stuff that we shouldn't have had to, but the overall value of what we got in return made up for them somewhat, for a change. That said, we are still working too cheap.

Think about what we could've gotten had the membership been 100% behind SWAPA, who, for the first time, was ready to actually charge the hill.

FWIW, the 2015 TA1 was right in line with every less than zero sum contract or SL we've voted for, with the exception of the '02 extension JW got us in spite of ourselves.

Thunder1
04-21-2018, 03:11 PM
You're averaging 12 tfp per day on reserve?

Uh, OK.........:rolleyes:

SlipKid,

Please re-read my post.....it clearly states in BOLD letters "Actual Days" worked -- by that I am referring to days I actually get into my nifty uniform and leave the house to fly an airplane. So, yes when i get 48 TFP for sitting reserve at home and then actually go fly another 102 TFP in 12 days. My math shows 150 TFP in 12 days of ACTUAL WORK, that's the caveat. So, yes: 150/12=12.5 TFP/Day

And yes, I know there are many legacy airline wide-body pilots that sit long-call reserve all month and maybe go fly one 3-4 day international trip and credit 80 hours. That is awesome and as soon as SWA buys wide bodies I might do the same thing and then I will be claiming to make 25 TFP per day of ACTUAL WORK!! LOL

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 03:50 PM
SlipKid,

Please re-read my post.....it clearly states in BOLD letters "Actual Days" worked -- by that I am referring to days I actually get into my nifty uniform and leave the house to fly an airplane. So, yes when i get 48 TFP for sitting reserve at home and then actually go fly another 102 TFP in 12 days. My math shows 150 TFP in 12 days of ACTUAL WORK, that's the caveat. So, yes: 150/12=12.5 TFP/Day


I knew what you were implying, which is why I highlighted it.

Like most of the folks gilding the lily on here, your ACTUAL math is way off, since those 8 days you sat reserve without getting called were not days OFF, but ACTUAL WORK days. :rolleyes:

If I have a 24 hour layover at home, is that a day OFF too?

Thunder1
04-21-2018, 03:57 PM
I knew what you were implying, which is why I highlighted it.

Your math is way off, since reserve, is a day of ACTUAL WORK, even if you don't get called and sit it at home. It's not a day OFF. :rolleyes:


SlipKid,
You and I have very different definitions of ACTUAL WORK.
Yes, reserve IS a day of work when it comes to pay, the contract, fighting for pay per day so we no longer sit for free like we used to. I will be right there in 2020 picketing beside you, like I did last time, fighting to get many improvement including reserve pay at 6.5 TFP per day.
However, this thread was talking about quality of life. When I live in domicile and sit reserve and not get used it is not a day of work when it comes to my quality of life -- hell, I've been out wake boarding/wake surfing on Lake Mead while on reserve -- hardly a day of actual work. Cheers!

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 04:34 PM
SlipKid,
You and I have very different definitions of ACTUAL WORK.

Apparently.

If you're on the hook for a 2 hour show, sorry, you're at WORK....


Yes, reserve IS a day of work when it comes to pay, the contract, fighting for pay per day so we no longer sit for free like we used to. I will be right there in 2020 picketing beside you, like I did last time, fighting to get many improvement including reserve pay at 6.5 TFP per day.
However, this thread was talking about quality of life. When I live in domicile and sit reserve and not get used it is not a day of work when it comes to my quality of life -- hell, I've been out wake boarding/wake surfing on Lake Mead while on reserve -- hardly a day of actual work. Cheers!

That sounds like one of my first flying jobs. We were on call 24/7. If you didn't get used, that became your day "off", after the fact.

I also sat 5.5 out of 7 years on reserve at a previous company. 2.5 of them were when I lived 5 minutes from the airport. I used to do outside stuff too, but I couldn't get too comfortable or make any plans because the chances of getting called out was always hanging over my head. At that place, we didn't use reserves anywhere near like we do here. I averaged 6 days of flying a month out of 18 days of reserve.

I lost count of the number of times I made plans or dug into a project only to have the beeper go off and had to leave to go fly.

It wasn't horrible, but I wasn't OFF if I didn't get called either.

Reserve days are work days. Period.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 04:35 PM
Rj donít take this the wrong way. Do you go down to the chief pilots office to hang out before checking in? Do you have an application at the training center to help out with recurrent? Do you feel like you would want to be a check airman? Do you by chance own one of those over the top flag ties that an literally blind you? Would you or could you ever see yourself in a management job? No judgment, just trying to get a frame of reference.


Havenít seen a chief in months, and that wasnít even in my base... captain was chatting him up while I enjoyed my dinner. Hell, I hardly even go to the lounge, and if I do, itís to empty out my box or ELITT. Not interested in special projects or hanging out in Dallas, nor am I interested in being a check airman as that means time in Dallas as well, nor am I interested in being a chief pilot as that means headaches and politics. Same goes for being in management.

I do have a flag tie thatís been worn exactly twice: 9/11 and Veterans Day with a SWAPA pin on it. I would have worn it on 4th of July, and Memorial Day.

Something else that you may have missed for your ďframe of referenceĒ - I voted NO mostly because of LTD/insurance and the companyís hypocrisy regarding the Golden Rule when it comes to an employee needing them the most, they throw them on their behinds. Other factors being no reason for B plan having not started at 15%, didnít care for some other things and language such as changing fatigue policy regarding pay while on premium or sick leave accrual rate while on premium or sick leave usage while on premium converting to straight time... but those wouldnít have necessarily been the deal breakers. LTD was and will be a deal breaker for me in the future.

RJSAviator76
04-21-2018, 05:15 PM
Slip, itís good that you keep bringing up SWApA and caution against electing self serving bozos giving away the store and selling it as a ďgainĒ, but you cannot let that handicap you. You also canít say stuff like we are lagging our peers without taking a look at the whole enchilada. Your main beef is no heavies and associated flying. Itís interesting listening to my legacy buds and their gripes... funny. I think we have it better especially living in base. But then again, different strokes for different folks...

I remain optimistic going forward for two reasons:

1) Available Pilot market - how will Southwest attract future talent? We donít have fast upgrades or widebodies... why should someone come here vs. go to United or American? Deck parties?

2) Airline industry health - way better than it was over the last almost 2 decades.

Supply and demand curve should be on our side.

Squallrider
04-21-2018, 05:22 PM
Curious whatís the deal with LTD? Someone mentioned it. Is it not available? Never needed it but rather have it and not need it as the saying goes

SlipKid
04-21-2018, 05:45 PM
Slip, itís good that you keep bringing up SWApA and caution against electing self serving bozos giving away the store and selling it as a ďgainĒ, but you cannot let that handicap you.

"We" handicapped ourselves by ratifying one concessionary contract and side letter after another. We could've voted no, but most of our folks don't even read the entire TAs and SLs before voting yes. TA2 was no exception.



You also canít say stuff like we are lagging our peers without taking a look at the whole enchilada. Your main beef is no heavies and associated flying.

My main "beef" has nothing to do with heavies or it's associated flying. At my age, I have no interest in doing that.

The point I've made, repeatedly, is that since we don't have higher paying aircraft (IE:Heavies), your pay vs. that of your peers with similar seniority at legacies will lag as you get more senior at SW, unless you work more days per month to make up for it.

My "beef" is with guys constantly saying that because they can work extra, we don't need higher pay rates. It's been going on as long as I've been here, so forgive me if your arguments sound sickeningly familiar to me.


Itís interesting listening to my legacy buds and their gripes... funny. I think we have it better especially living in base. But then again, different strokes for different folks...

I think I have it better, in many ways, than many of my peers of similar seniority, (who are typically wide body Capts at my seniority level) at the legacies too. That doesn't change the fact that I have to work more days than they do to equal their pay.

The fact that I can do it if I so choose in one of the many things I like about our contract.

ZapBrannigan
04-21-2018, 06:54 PM
Iíd add that our year 2 through year 5 FO pay lags the industry. After year five it parallels the pay curve at all of the other legacies, but for some reason it is markedly lower from 2-5.

Nobody at SWAPA has a good explanation as to why.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180422/f0b1521181cab7890c91473780f08d37.jpg


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Lewbronski
04-21-2018, 08:34 PM
Actually Slip, thatís the problem with that line of thinking. You cannot IMPOSE what you want on the company. It just doesnít work that way. If it did, we would have had the Platform for our contract. Instead, we NEGOTIATED what we have now.

A little difference there, wouldnít you say?

Let's say we wanted to try to impose our will on the company. What strategy would you recommend SWAPA pursue to try to accomplish that?

You would agree that we should at least try to have the best work rules AND the best pay rates AND the best retirement AND the best benefits AND the best reserve rules AND the best hotels, right?(especially given the fact that as SlipKid pointed out we have no wide-body equipment to enhance our career compensation past the 12-year point)

What would be the most effective means for SWAPA and this membership to accomplish all that we would like to accomplish ... to obtain everyone's dream contract?

SlipKid
04-22-2018, 06:32 AM
Let's say we wanted to try to impose our will on the company. What strategy would you recommend SWAPA pursue to try to accomplish that?

You would agree that we should at least try to have the best work rules AND the best pay rates AND the best retirement AND the best benefits AND the best reserve rules AND the best hotels, right?(especially given the fact that as SlipKid pointed out we have no wide-body equipment to enhance our career compensation past the 12-year point)

What would be the most effective means for SWAPA and this membership to accomplish all that we would like to accomplish ... to obtain everyone's dream contract?

SWAPA was on an amazing roll in 2015, and then just gave up after seeing the results of the membership survey that included questions about a potential strike vote.

Without understanding what they were actually gonna vote on (which is typical around here), the membership ran scared when the "S" word was mentioned. SWAPA did the right thing and settled right then and there, since a weak strike vote would've made things far worse.

I can tell you what doesn't work, and that's coming on public forums, incessantly crowing about how our work rules allow us to make as much and more than our legacy brethren if we're willing to work a "little" extra. It undermines the effort to get an industry standard hourly rate.

Ironically, some of the ones screaming it the loudest aren't working a little extra, they're working a LOT extra. Like a week or more per month in some cases. :eek:

SlipKid
04-22-2018, 06:37 AM
Iíd add that our year 2 through year 5 FO pay lags the industry. After year five it parallels the pay curve at all of the other legacies, but for some reason it is markedly lower from 2-5.

Nobody at SWAPA has a good explanation as to why.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180422/f0b1521181cab7890c91473780f08d37.jpg


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The majority, apparently, had no problem with it, so they ratified TA2. ;)

RJSAviator76
04-22-2018, 07:44 AM
Curious what’s the deal with LTD? Someone mentioned it. Is it not available? Never needed it but rather have it and not need it as the saying goes

LTD is available, but if you go out on medical and you run out of sick leave, after a certain period, the Company drops you from your insurance plan, and you have to go on COBRA. SWAPA will reimburse you for COBRA coverage. If you're still out after COBRA runs out, you go on Secondary/VEBA Plan and all of that is a major PITA. But here's another gem... when the Company drops you from insurance, they also drop you from other insurance packages - your life insurance for example. They also drop you and your family from having any travel benefits. In other words, you're done... they no longer have any use for you. Now, considering that pilots are sort of a special category and we're subject to FAA medical certification that other employees here aren't, we now have to pass "the desk test" in order to retain travel benefits... and though it's an improvement because prior to this, you would have to go to your chief pilot and ask them for a pass, it's still grossly subpar to our legacy peers.

If you're unfortunate to go out on long-term medical, you should retain all your benefits just as if you're an active employee. That means not dealing with this COBRA nonsense, that also means your online travel benefits for you and your family, that means peace of mind of your life insurance being left intact. When you're out on medical, the last thing you should worry about is if your medical coverage will remain adequate, if you trusted (and you never should!) the Company with your life insurance, and your medical insurance. You shouldn't chase or beg chiefs for travel benefits for you and your family especially if you have to travel to get treatments elsewhere.

This is where our legacy peers blow us away and this is what needs to be addressed.

When TA2 was announced, our pay rates were indeed the industry-leading narrowbody rates. However, before we concluded our vote, Delta pilots also got their TA with their rates being higher than ours. United pilot contract had a parity clause in which they would match Delta should they get a TA within a specified timeframe which they did. Right there, we got bypassed on our rates before we even finished voting. In light of that, there was a discussion to throw in sweeteners for us to pass our TA2, and addressing our LTD inadequacy was on the table. However, the company negotiator R.M. managed to convince the company that this pilot group would pass the TA2 without this "sweetener" and we proved him right... and that's why I'm proud of my NO vote.

When you start your newhire training, you'll hear all about "The Golden Rule" and how the Company is all over it. Don't forget that it should come with a big fat * next to it if you're the unfortunate soul that goes out on medical long-term as you have all of the above to deal with in addition to dealing with your illness or injury.

SlipKid
04-22-2018, 08:20 AM
LTD is available, but if you go out on medical and you run out of sick leave, after a certain period, the Company drops you from your insurance plan, and you have to go on COBRA. SWAPA will reimburse you for COBRA coverage. If you're still out after COBRA runs out, you go on Secondary/VEBA Plan and all of that is a major PITA. But here's another gem... when the Company drops you from insurance, they also drop you from other insurance packages - your life insurance for example. They also drop you and your family from having any travel benefits. In other words, you're done... they no longer have any use for you. Now, considering that pilots are sort of a special category and we're subject to FAA medical certification that other employees here aren't, we now have to pass "the desk test" in order to retain travel benefits... and though it's an improvement because prior to this, you would have to go to your chief pilot and ask them for a pass, it's still grossly subpar to our legacy peers.

If you're unfortunate to go out on long-term medical, you should retain all your benefits just as if you're an active employee. That means not dealing with this COBRA nonsense, that also means your online travel benefits for you and your family, that means peace of mind of your life insurance being left intact. When you're out on medical, the last thing you should worry about is if your medical coverage will remain adequate, if you trusted (and you never should!) the Company with your life insurance, and your medical insurance. You shouldn't chase or beg chiefs for travel benefits for you and your family especially if you have to travel to get treatments elsewhere.

This is where our legacy peers blow us away and this is what needs to be addressed.

When TA2 was announced, our pay rates were indeed the industry-leading narrowbody rates. However, before we concluded our vote, Delta pilots also got their TA with their rates being higher than ours. United pilot contract had a parity clause in which they would match Delta should they get a TA within a specified timeframe which they did. Right there, we got bypassed on our rates before we even finished voting. In light of that, there was a discussion to throw in sweeteners for us to pass our TA2, and addressing our LTD inadequacy was on the table. However, the company negotiator R.M. managed to convince the company that this pilot group would pass the TA2 without this "sweetener" and we proved him right... and that's why I'm proud of my NO vote.

When you start your newhire training, you'll hear all about "The Golden Rule" and how the Company is all over it. Don't forget that it should come with a big fat * next to it if you're the unfortunate soul that goes out on medical long-term as you have all of the above to deal with in addition to dealing with your illness or injury.

I can't disagree with anything in this post. Spot on. :eek:

RJSAviator76
04-22-2018, 08:28 AM
SWAPA was on an amazing roll in 2015, and then just gave up after seeing the results of the membership survey that included questions about a potential strike vote.

Without understanding what they were actually gonna vote on (which is typical around here), the membership ran scared when the "S" word was mentioned. SWAPA did the right thing and settled right then and there, since a weak strike vote would've made things far worse.

I can tell you what doesn't work, and that's coming on public forums, incessantly crowing about how our work rules allow us to make as much and more than our legacy brethren if we're willing to work a "little" extra. It undermines the effort to get an industry standard hourly rate.

Ironically, some of the ones screaming it the loudest aren't working a little extra, they're working a LOT extra. Like a week or more per month in some cases. :eek:

Slip, you keep forgetting that we did have industry-leading rates incorporated in TA2. We got bypassed as Delta got their TA while we were voting on ours. Pattern bargaining works.

Do you think we should also have thrown in a parity clause with Delta/United/American like United did?

SlipKid
04-22-2018, 08:56 AM
Slip, you keep forgetting that we did have industry-leading rates incorporated in TA2. We got bypassed as Delta got their TA while we were voting on ours. Pattern bargaining works.

I did not forget. DAL's TA came out before the vote closed, so we knew that we'd be lagging as soon as they ratified. Apparently, you keep forgetting that we were industry leading for what, a month? :rolleyes: C'mon.......


Do you think we should also have thrown in a parity clause with Delta/United/American like United did?

Of course.

Lewbronski
04-22-2018, 10:38 AM
Slip, itís good that you keep bringing up SWApA and caution against electing self serving bozos giving away the store and selling it as a ďgainĒ, but you cannot let that handicap you. You also canít say stuff like we are lagging our peers without taking a look at the whole enchilada. Your main beef is no heavies and associated flying. Itís interesting listening to my legacy buds and their gripes... funny. I think we have it better especially living in base. But then again, different strokes for different folks...

I remain optimistic going forward for two reasons:

1) Available Pilot market - how will Southwest attract future talent? We donít have fast upgrades or widebodies... why should someone come here vs. go to United or American? Deck parties?

2) Airline industry health - way better than it was over the last almost 2 decades.

Supply and demand curve should be on our side.

What is it about these two things that makes you optimistic? Are you saying you expect to be able to use these two items in 2020 to be able to get better LTD?

If so, how do you foresee that happening?

If not, how do you expect to be able to improve our LTD situation?

What should this pilot group do to improve the LTD that you have pretty much painted as a moral imperative to improve?

RJSAviator76
04-22-2018, 12:26 PM
What is it about these two things that makes you optimistic? Are you saying you expect to be able to use these two items in 2020 to be able to get better LTD?

If so, how do you foresee that happening?

If not, how do you expect to be able to improve our LTD situation?

What should this pilot group do to improve the LTD that you have pretty much painted as a moral imperative to improve?

To fix the LTD situation here would literally cost peanuts in the grand scheme. This last go, our focus was on improving pay, reserve, and retirement. We largely succeeded on this front. Some don't think it went far enough, and that's a healthy attitude to have as we should always strive for improvements. LTD was brought up pretty late in the game... if I remember right, it came up as a potential sweetener after Delta got their TA and we were voting on ours.

This is pretty easy to overlook as nobody thinks they'll go out on a medical. But should it happen, shouldn't your full concentration be on getting well? Should you have to worry about losing your various coverages and your travel benefits for you and family because the company just drops you? Shouldn't the company practice what it preaches with regards to the Golden Rule?

My reps know where I stand on this. There's enough buzz on our internal boards about this issue as well. I think when it comes to any negotiations for any side letter or to renegotiate our contract, I'm pretty sure this will get addressed. If it doesn't... I'm an automatic no to any side letter or TA.

Lewbronski
04-22-2018, 03:38 PM
To fix the LTD situation here would literally cost peanuts in the grand scheme. This last go, our focus was on improving pay, reserve, and retirement. We largely succeeded on this front. Some don't think it went far enough, and that's a healthy attitude to have as we should always strive for improvements. LTD was brought up pretty late in the game... if I remember right, it came up as a potential sweetener after Delta got their TA and we were voting on ours.

This is pretty easy to overlook as nobody thinks they'll go out on a medical. But should it happen, shouldn't your full concentration be on getting well? Should you have to worry about losing your various coverages and your travel benefits for you and family because the company just drops you? Shouldn't the company practice what it preaches with regards to the Golden Rule?

My reps know where I stand on this. There's enough buzz on our internal boards about this issue as well. I think when it comes to any negotiations for any side letter or to renegotiate our contract, I'm pretty sure this will get addressed. If it doesn't... I'm an automatic no to any side letter or TA.

It will very likely get addressed. That doesn't meant the company will concede to it. What I'm trying to find out from you is what do you think is going to compel the company to give us industry-standard or better LTD (let alone pay rates OR hotels OR retirement OR whatever anyone's particular favorite issue is)?

You mentioned the "available pilot market" and "airline industry health" as reasons the company will grant us those concessions. Do you think those two factors are enough for the company to be in a concessionary mood come 2020?

The "airline industry health" argument would apply equally to our mechanics. That doesn't seem to have done a lot for them over the last five years (esp in light of their NC recommending a NO vote). So, in essence, what you're saying is the "available pilot market" is going to be enough pressure to twist the company's arm into giving us LTD and the rest of the the items we'll be "addressing" in 2020?

ZapBrannigan
04-22-2018, 04:45 PM
It depends on how much people want to focus on ďindustry leading payĒ. I donít personally need to be the highest paid, provided the work rules, quality of life, Ltd, etc are industry standard or better.

Iíd like to see them clean up all of the slop in the contract before going back to the trough for more dollars.


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Lewbronski
04-22-2018, 04:57 PM
It depends on how much people want to focus on ďindustry leading payĒ. I donít personally need to be the highest paid, provided the work rules, quality of life, Ltd, etc are industry standard or better.

Iíd like to see them clean up all of the slop in the contract before going back to the trough for more dollars.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Okay, so your particular personal issue is all of the "slop" in the contract. RJS's particular personal issue is LTD. Same question: what is going to compel the company in 2020 to clean up all of the "slop" in the contract to your satisfaction?

Will it be the "available pilot market"?

Will it be the "airline industry health"?

Will it be something else?

What is going to cause the company to grant concessions on any particular issue regardless of whether or not whatever concession they grant represents "industry standard" or not?

flyguy81
04-22-2018, 05:16 PM
Okay, so your particular personal issue is all of the "slop" in the contract. RJS's particular personal issue is LTD. Same question: what is going to compel the company in 2020 to clean up all of the "slop" in the contract to your satisfaction?

Will it be the "available pilot market"?

Will it be the "airline industry health"?

Will it be something else?

What is going to cause the company to grant concessions on any particular issue regardless of whether or not whatever concession they grant represents "industry standard" or not?

Looking at retirements per year across the industry in 2020 and beyond....it would behoove the company to not prolong negotiations to avoid a spike in attrition and their ability to recruit. Delta, United and maybe AA will all have been negotiating for a year or more by the time 2020 hits and Iím hoping pattern bargaining will work in our favor this time vs how worked in 2016.

Lewbronski
04-22-2018, 05:47 PM
Looking at retirements per year across the industry in 2020 and beyond....it would behoove the company to not prolong negotiations to avoid a spike in attrition and their ability to recruit. Delta, United and maybe AA will all have been negotiating for a year or more by the time 2020 hits and Iím hoping pattern bargaining will work in our favor this time vs how worked in 2016.

Okay, cool. So, for the record, you're saying the combination of pattern bargaining and the pilot shortage (if it actually exists at the major airline level AND if the company cares) will be enough? We don't need to prepare any other avenues of attack for 2020?

flyguy81
04-23-2018, 02:53 PM
Okay, cool. So, for the record, you're saying the combination of pattern bargaining and the pilot shortage (if it actually exists at the major airline level AND if the company cares) will be enough? We don't need to prepare any other avenues of attack for 2020?

We should go into it being over-prepared and ready for any situation the company throws at us. Expect the unexpected...

Lewbronski
04-23-2018, 10:30 PM
We should go into it being over-prepared and ready for any situation the company throws at us. Expect the unexpected...

I agree. So are you saying we shouldn't rely entirely on the idea of a pilot shortage? I agree with that for a number of reasons:


The pilot shortage may not really exist
Even if it does really exist, the company may not care
If it does exist, the company may believe it can solve it in some other way other than appeasing the pilots like seeking regulatory relief or establishing an ab initio program


So, what does being "over-prepared" mean to you?

ANGFlight81
04-24-2018, 03:25 AM
Not to veer too far off coarse but since pilot shortage is being brought up, has anyone heard about age 67? Is it still being considered?

ZapBrannigan
04-24-2018, 04:04 AM
I agree. So are you saying we shouldn't rely entirely on the idea of a pilot shortage? I agree with that for a number of reasons:


The pilot shortage may not really exist
Even if it does really exist, the company may not care
If it does exist, the company may believe it can solve it in some other way other than appeasing the pilots like seeking regulatory relief or establishing an ab initio program


So, what does being "over-prepared" mean to you?


Well, for the last year or so SWAPA has been conducting polls on every single section of the CBA and then using the results to write language for Contract 2020.

In the meantime the strike preparedness committee was never stood down. Instead they have been participating in informational picketing at other carriers including JetBlue and Spirit - arguably learning what works and what doesnít.

The communications committee has been creating new channels including electronic and paper Reporting Points and Negotiating Point.

The association has been building relationships with other unions by hosting an annual independent pilots union conference in Dallas last year. Another is scheduled for October this year.

The SWAPA President, a known firebrand, is eligible for one more term which will carry him into the 2020 negotiation cycle. He isnít likely to become LESS aggressive during that time.

The company still has yet to embark on any interline or codeshare relationships. Once they do they will likely look to Ďtweakí the CBA language in order to match their business plans.

Now looking outside of SWA, American and United both have massive retirements that will occur in the next decade. American has stated they donít even have the training capacity to fill the vacancies. The resulting upward movement will create astonishing training floats at AA, requiring unprecedented hiring. To meet that need, they have pioneered flow through programs with a number of regionals. Their efforts have been duplicated with regional partners at United and Delta. Even Frontier recently started a flow through relationship with Trans States. JetBlue is still building their ďzero to heroĒ program.

So the question I might ask if I were a recruiter is, ďWhat does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their Ďcradle to graveí career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?Ē Even if everything else were equal those other carriers offer choices that WN never could. Widebodies airplanes to worldwide destinations. Pay scales that far outpace 737 rates on their larger aircraft.

The challenge for the company will be figuring out how to recruit and retain pilots in the face of all of this competition to recruit and retain pilots. Even absent any negotiations at all, I believe theyíll have to figure out ways to sweeten the pot. What will that look like? Who knows. Space positive commuting? Live wherever you want? More money? More time off? Who knows... but what I DO know, is that the supply and demand curve is firmly in our favor when it comes to negotiating improvements in 2020. The only thing that could put the brakes on would be a catastrophic event that stunts the air travel market at large.

Just the opinion of one industry observer.




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Fuseplug
04-24-2018, 05:09 AM
ďWhat does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their Ďcradle to graveí career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?Ē

Umm... Culture? :D

BLAHBLAHBLAH
04-24-2018, 06:47 AM
10 pages to explain our hourly conversion. To sum up, our rates are lower but we can work harder to make the same or maybe more than a legacy narrowbody peer. Unless you take retirements and upgrade into account. Might be ok if you donít have to commute or ever want fly widebodies.

And culture.

dawgdriver
04-24-2018, 07:12 AM
Umm... Culture? :D

Hahahahahahahaha

WN can still attract hordes of pilots with playful FAs having pillow fights and crazy room parties.

dawgdriver
04-24-2018, 07:23 AM
10 pages to explain our hourly conversion. To sum up, our rates are lower but we can work harder to make the same or maybe more than a legacy narrowbody peer. Might be ok if you donít have to commute or ever want fly widebodies.

And culture.

Is that still the case now with continued ramping-up of hiring that happened to coincide with the early retirement of the classic fleet? Hasn't that resulted in a dramatic drop in open time?

BLAHBLAHBLAH
04-24-2018, 07:44 AM
That just got rid of most of the premium time. Guys are picking up straight time so they can make their 120 trips!

ANGFlight81
04-24-2018, 09:21 AM
Is that still the case now with continued ramping-up of hiring that happened to coincide with the early retirement of the classic fleet? Hasn't that resulted in a dramatic drop in open time?

Wonít last long. We will end 2018 with significantly more aircraft.

flaps 9
04-24-2018, 11:52 AM
I think you turned it into reserve. The op wanted an effective hourly rate. Look at the thread title. You started adding all qualifiers with reserve, picking up extra. Thats the only reason I jumped in.
No one bids reserve if they can hold a line.

So not true :confused:

Lewbronski
04-24-2018, 11:53 AM
Well, for the last year or so SWAPA has been conducting polls on every single section of the CBA and then using the results to write language for Contract 2020.

It's good that they are polling. However, I'd say much of the info they're getting isn't all that valuable. I say this because, take pay, for example: the average guy on the line has no real idea (besides anecdotal info he hears from his "buds" at OAL's and via the rumor mill) how our pay stacks up against other airlines on either an annual or career basis. If they wanted more valuable info, imo, it would be far more effective to educate AND THEN poll.

In the meantime the strike preparedness committee was never stood down. Instead they have been participating in informational picketing at other carriers including JetBlue and Spirit - arguably learning what works and what doesn’t.

Not a bad thing either. But what exactly is the strike committee doing to get ready for a possible strike? There is an ENORMOUS difference between picketing and striking. What is the strike committee doing to prepare for a strike? Because if they're a "strike preparedness" committee, isn't that what they should be doing? Or should they be called the "Informational Picketing Committee"? It seems like that would be more apro pos in our case.

The communications committee has been creating new channels including electronic and paper Reporting Points and Negotiating Point.

Again, also not a bad thing, but I'd say not super-effective in terms of educating our group. The typical guy I talk to has very little clue what is going on.

The association has been building relationships with other unions by hosting an annual independent pilots union conference in Dallas last year. Another is scheduled for October this year.

And actively shunning the biggest airline pilot's union in the world: ALPA. Not that we need to join them, but there is little cooperation between SWAPA and ALPA. Take the pilot shortage issue as an example. ALPA has the exact OPPOSITE position as SWAPA. ALPA claims a "pilot supply" problem does not exist, likely because if they did, it would lend weight to any possible legislative solution to the issue (if it exists).

The SWAPA President, a known firebrand, is eligible for one more term which will carry him into the 2020 negotiation cycle. He isn’t likely to become LESS aggressive during that time.

Not a bad thing that he's "aggressive". However, all of his "aggressiveness" got us last time was a billion-plus less than Platform and a sub-industry standard retirement. And yes, he's better than anything SWAPA has had before, but that's not saying much. The Platform was good in terms of exciting a pilot group that has no clue how the system works. However, the Federal law governing mediation in our industry requires us to make "every reasonable effort" to come to an agreement ("bargain in good faith"). To be in mediation and say "This is our Platform and we won't go any lower" flies in the face of that principle. It means one of two things, 1) either you hold to that and remove any chance of ever being released (that's bad because it means there is never a strike threat at that point and nothing for the company to worry about in that regard) because you're not making "every reasonable effort", or 2) you back away from the Platform so that you are not violating the law by not making "every reasonable effort". We chose option 2. That is fine except when you promised, in writing, to your membership that you wouldn't do that.

It's a testament to the lack of awareness of our membership that we did not question the Platform in that way when it was released and allowed SWAPA to proceed on. If we wanted to achieve the metrics of the Platform, we needed to begin at a much higher position and back away in a "reasonable" manner to the Platform. That's simply how the law dictates the game is played. That JW took up a position that forced us into the two choices above may have been "aggressive" but it doesn't mean that it was wise.

The company still has yet to embark on any interline or codeshare relationships. Once they do they will likely look to ‘tweak’ the CBA language in order to match their business plans.

Maybe, maybe not. If you're referring to the "missing letter" of 50 exempted SOE airlines, then I think that's something we'd have a good chance of losing if it went to a SBOA.

Now looking outside of SWA, American and United both have massive retirements that will occur in the next decade. American has stated they don’t even have the training capacity to fill the vacancies. The resulting upward movement will create astonishing training floats at AA, requiring unprecedented hiring. To meet that need, they have pioneered flow through programs with a number of regionals. Their efforts have been duplicated with regional partners at United and Delta. Even Frontier recently started a flow through relationship with Trans States. JetBlue is still building their “zero to hero” program.

So the question I might ask if I were a recruiter is, “What does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their ‘cradle to grave’ career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?” Even if everything else were equal those other carriers offer choices that WN never could. Widebodies airplanes to worldwide destinations. Pay scales that far outpace 737 rates on their larger aircraft.

The challenge for the company will be figuring out how to recruit and retain pilots in the face of all of this competition to recruit and retain pilots. Even absent any negotiations at all, I believe they’ll have to figure out ways to sweeten the pot. What will that look like? Who knows. Space positive commuting? Live wherever you want? More money? More time off? Who knows... but what I DO know, is that the supply and demand curve is firmly in our favor when it comes to negotiating improvements in 2020. The only thing that could put the brakes on would be a catastrophic event that stunts the air travel market at large.

I'd say the pilot shortage, if it exists, helps our cause. However, I think it's only a marginally helpful factor. SWA does not have nearly the number of retirements in the near future as many other airlines. GK is still of the opinion that "pilots are lined up out the door" to come to SWA. Our management team is legendary, from a pilot's perspective, for not being able to see the big picture. Witness all the complaints about us being a "ground ops run airline". To begin with, it's debatable that the pilot shortage exists at all at our level. But, even if it does exist, our management may not 1) comprehend it and appreciate it, and/or 2) care about it very much.

If we are going to go into 2020 relying primarily on a possible pilot shortage as our main source of leverage, I'd say we are setting ourselves up for middling (at best) gains and possibly worse if the economy falters.

Do you think it's wise to put all of our eggs into that basket? If you were in SWAPA, what would you do?

Lewbronski
04-24-2018, 11:57 AM
Wonít last long. We will end 2018 with significantly more aircraft.

But how many pilots will we have? What will the ratio of pilots to aircraft be at the end of 2018? I'm not sure.

I do know that we are strategically increasing our ratio over the long-term for a number of reasons one of which is the fact that we don't really fly the AM/PM split like we did before. We now have almost a third shift. There are also rumors (yet to be proven/disproven) that the company would prefer to hire more guys than to award more POT.

RJSAviator76
04-24-2018, 01:07 PM
That just got rid of most of the premium time. Guys are picking up straight time so they can make their 120 trips!

My year-to-date average including this month, is right at 150 TFP per month, averaging 71 hours of block time per month... I picked up 2 trips total at straight out of TTGA so far this year. No sick calls or vacation yet.

Maybe I've just been lucky.

SlipKid
04-24-2018, 01:39 PM
So not true :confused:

Forget to bid, without any standing bid preferences, and I guarantee you'll get what's left, which is reserve.

ANGFlight81
04-24-2018, 01:40 PM
But how many pilots will we have? What will the ratio of pilots to aircraft be at the end of 2018? I'm not sure.

I do know that we are strategically increasing our ratio over the long-term for a number of reasons one of which is the fact that we don't really fly the AM/PM split like we did before. We now have almost a third shift. There are also rumors (yet to be proven/disproven) that the company would prefer to hire more guys than to award more POT.

The only people that have the answers to the above are the people not allowed to talk about it

SlipKid
04-24-2018, 01:52 PM
My year-to-date average including this month, is right at 150 TFP per month, averaging 71 hours of block time per month... I picked up 2 trips total at straight out of TTGA so far this year. No sick calls or vacation yet.

Maybe I've just been lucky.

Or, perhaps, you're working 17-20 days per month, the vast majority of it at straight time. ;)

ANGFlight81
04-24-2018, 01:54 PM
Or, perhaps, you're working 17-20 days per month, the vast majority of it at straight time. ;)


Thatíd be really hard to do considering his average monthly block is 71...

SlipKid
04-24-2018, 01:55 PM
Thatíd be really hard to do considering his average monthly block is 71...

And yet.... he does it..... :eek: Gee, I wonder how? :rolleyes:

Lewbronski
04-24-2018, 01:59 PM
My year-to-date average including this month, is right at 150 TFP per month, averaging 71 hours of block time per month... I picked up 2 trips total at straight out of TTGA so far this year. No sick calls or vacation yet.

Maybe I've just been lucky.

You're definitely significantly above average. There are guys who do that, but they are not the rule by a long shot.

I've gone through periods where I've tried to do that in the past. The best I've ever done was 135 one month. Typically, I'm in the low to mid-90's.

I do know guys who actively try and they manage to rack up totals 150 and above. However, they are constantly on their phone and/or computer trading, ELITT'ing, checking open time, and so on. I prefer to not do that.

The last times I tried to pick up POT were the last two weeks of Nov and the last two weeks of Jan. I had my board completely cleared in both cases. I am senior and bid POT on nearly every turn to three day that paid more than 10 per day (premium). I got outbid 100% of the time by guys bidding it straight. I am in base. I was constantly getting text alerts and getting woken up in the middle of the night (I know you can set a do not disturb but I really wanted some POT) by alerts. But nada.

So yes, people do what RJS does but they are not typical. There is the other side of the coin here too.

RJSAviator76
04-24-2018, 02:20 PM
You're definitely significantly above average. There are guys who do that, but they are not the rule by a long shot.

I've gone through periods where I've tried to do that in the past. The best I've ever done was 135 one month. Typically, I'm in the low to mid-90's.

I do know guys who actively try and they manage to rack up totals 150 and above. However, they are constantly on their phone and/or computer trading, ELITT'ing, checking open time, and so on. I prefer to not do that.

The last times I tried to pick up POT were the last two weeks of Nov and the last two weeks of Jan. I had my board completely cleared in both cases. I am senior and bid POT on nearly every turn to three day that paid more than 10 per day (premium). I got outbid 100% of the time by guys bidding it straight. I am in base. I was constantly getting text alerts and getting woken up in the middle of the night (I know you can set a do not disturb but I really wanted some POT) by alerts. But nada.

So yes, people do what RJS does but they are not typical. There is the other side of the coin here too.

Absolutely correct. Not typical at all, and not the rule either. The beauty of a choice... with some people junior to me doing better than me, also quite a few senior guys making me look lazy.

MudhammedCJ
04-24-2018, 02:27 PM
I prefer 12 days a month for 90-100 trips to 20 days for 150. But I like being home and seeing my kids..

SlipKid
04-24-2018, 02:40 PM
I prefer 12 days a month for 90-100 trips to 20 days for 150. But I like being home and seeing my kids..

Yeah, for many of us, that extra week of work every month is a non starter. :eek:

Lewbronski
04-24-2018, 04:33 PM
Yeah, for many of us, that extra week of work every month is a non starter. :eek:

I think RJS says he averages 12 TFP per day of work. By that measure, you should be getting 144 TFP per month. Why are you only getting 90-100 TFP?

MudhammedCJ
04-24-2018, 06:11 PM
If you're asking me it's because I'm telling the truth.

WHACKMASTER
04-24-2018, 06:18 PM
I think RJS says he averages 12 TFP per day of work. By that measure, you should be getting 144 TFP per month. Why are you only getting 90-100 TFP?

I think RJS is including RSV days he picks up but doesnít work in that average. Or should I say not including those days.

Personally, I work high block trips that pay really well but obviously because of the high block I canít do 150 TFP a month on anywhere close to a consistent basis. Thatís okay. At 8-8.5 TFP/day average Iím content.

Lewbronski
04-24-2018, 06:18 PM
If you're asking me it's because I'm telling the truth.

Ya, I was asking you. I hit the wrong post when I quoted. I meant to quote you. My bad.

You know, you should be able to get 144 TFP since you're working 12 days per month. All of the guys who want to get hired here should believe that you can work 12 days per month at 71 block hours and make 144 TFP or better.

SlipKid
04-24-2018, 08:35 PM
I think RJS says he averages 12 TFP per day of work. By that measure, you should be getting 144 TFP per month. Why are you only getting 90-100 TFP?

I am getting 90-100 tfp most months because I refuse to work an extra week or more every month. ;)

Squallrider
04-25-2018, 04:43 AM
First year is $70 per tfp right? So reserve being used can expect about 90 or so plus per diem?

RJSAviator76
04-25-2018, 04:50 AM
First year is $70 per tfp right? So reserve being used can expect about 90 or so plus per diem?



Scroll to the beginning of this thread. As a reserve, youíll make anywhere from 105 to 135 TFP per month without picking up anything extra.

Squallrider
04-25-2018, 04:54 AM
Scroll to the beginning of this thread. As a reserve, youíll make anywhere from 105 to 135 TFP per month without picking up anything extra.

Thatís quite nice.

flyguy81
04-25-2018, 06:35 AM
Been bidding rsv intentionally lately. I live in base and have a pass bid. Usually donít work 4-6 rsv days a month bidding weekday rsv. Iíll pick up a day trip or two to boost credit and end up around 130/mo with 30-60 hrs block.

at6d
04-25-2018, 02:14 PM
I know an FO on 3rd year pay that did 175 last month. Bids reserve, picks up on off days. Lives in base.

RJSAviator76
04-25-2018, 02:18 PM
Personal best - 182... this year no less.

Lewbronski
04-26-2018, 07:48 AM
Good luck. Iíve bid on over 50 premium trips in the last couple months with no luck.

Same case with me. It's not as simple as, "Oh, I'll just pick up a premium open time trip ... Wait a sec while I just jump on the computer. Ok, done! Now what were you saying?"

As I said before, the last couple of times I've tried to do that (the last two weeks of Nov and the last two weeks of Jan), I got nothing,

I live in base and am in the top 5% on the FO side. I bid on way over 50 trips collectively. I bid DOT and HOT. My criteria was that it had to pay close to 10 TFP or more per day premium. I spent a good part of both of those two week periods working the computer, checking my phone, and ignoring the rest of my life. It kind of sucked.

Each and every time, I was outbid by people who bid the trips at straight pay. It's very good that people like RJS and ANG are Pollyanna-ish. Lord bless 'em. But they definitely do not represent everyone's experience.

e6bpilot
04-26-2018, 09:21 AM
Same case with me. It's not as simple as, "Oh, I'll just pick up a premium open time trip ... Wait a sec while I just jump on the computer. Ok, done! Now what were you saying?"



As I said before, the last couple of times I've tried to do that (the last two weeks of Nov and the last two weeks of Jan), I got nothing,



I live in base and am in the top 5% on the FO side. I bid on way over 50 trips collectively. I bid DOT and HOT. My criteria was that it had to pay close to 10 TFP or more per day premium. I spent a good part of both of those two week periods working the computer, checking my phone, and ignoring the rest of my life. It kind of sucked.



Each and every time, I was outbid by people who bid the trips at straight pay. It's very good that people like RJS and ANG are Pollyanna-ish. Lord bless 'em. But they definitely do not represent everyone's experience.



Itís been a tough few months. I batted a donut in January and February after flying one in December. Last month I flew 4 (two were turns and I got JAd on one) premium trips and this month two.
My double secret strategy is to shotgun bid daily on the weekends. Any trip that averages 9 or so per day. Bonus points for commutable, bonus points for low block. I put all the in base trips at the top of the stack and then rank them in order I want to fly after that.
I stay below the cap as long as possible, ie I would rather bid a 26 paying 3 day that keeps me under the cap than a 30 paying 3 day that doesnít.
After that I hang out with my kids, do stuff around the house, kick the dog, whatever.
At around 11:30 I check my phone.
March I flew all in domicile.
April I flew both out of domicile.
You never know.

If I donít get anything I bid hourly or pick up something straight. Sometimes youíre the windshield...

Last year I was able to do much better at 20 percent less seniority. I saw an article today that said we will have 30 more aircraft by the end of the year plus the upgrades should be evened out with the new hires by then.

mainlineAF
04-26-2018, 10:24 AM
The cultural differences between airlines is interesting. At AA, at least on my fleet, most people talk about how many days off they can get and complain when there isnít adequate coverage to straight drop trips.

Iíve never heard someone say what their highest time month is or how much they were able to pick up.

Itís cool yal have the ability to get so much premium if you want it.

BLAHBLAHBLAH
04-26-2018, 11:01 AM
Most lines awarded have 90-100 TFP and 16-18 days off.

e6bpilot
04-26-2018, 11:50 AM
The cultural differences between airlines is interesting. At AA, at least on my fleet, most people talk about how many days off they can get and complain when there isnít adequate coverage to straight drop trips.

Iíve never heard someone say what their highest time month is or how much they were able to pick up.

Itís cool yal have the ability to get so much premium if you want it.



It just depends on the person. I know some guys who work 11 or 12 days a month and never pick up. I flew with a captain who took 3 months off and didnít come to work once. He went to Asia with his wife.

The majority work 12 or so days a month and pick up here and there.

Red Baron
04-26-2018, 01:02 PM
What base is the best right now for junior guys (new hires) picking up extra trips?

Warhawg01
04-26-2018, 01:09 PM
AM or PM? Some bases can skew one way or the other. If you chase the $$$ regardless, then it doesnít matter. If you are a hard core PMíer, it does.

Red Baron
04-26-2018, 05:21 PM
How about MCO? AM or PM?

e6bpilot
04-26-2018, 06:01 PM
East coast bases trend AM. West coast PM. The reason is that the company shifted east coast AM trips to east and central bases to avoid fatigue calls generated by a 12 hour overnight followed by a midnight body clock wake up for west coast crews.
I love PM flying, but it definitely has its drawbacks.

at6d
04-26-2018, 07:30 PM
Thank god for you AMíers.

kingairfun
04-26-2018, 08:03 PM
Question from a guy at another Legacy....

What is a 5-6 yr. FO making, if he/she flies their line (no premium trips) and pulls 16-18 days off a month? W-2 wise....

Burton78
04-26-2018, 08:26 PM
Question from a guy at another Legacy....



What is a 5-6 yr. FO making, if he/she flies their line (no premium trips) and pulls 16-18 days off a month? W-2 wise....



I'd say pretty close to 200k.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SlipKid
04-26-2018, 09:57 PM
How about MCO? AM or PM?

Definitely AM by a large margin. I am die hard PMer. I don't even look at AM lines other than the weekday turn lines that I can give away, and have never once bid an AM in OT, even for premium.

It's gotten so bad in MCO the past few months that I am seriously considering bidding west and commuting for the first time in almost 18 years.

Our much touted flexibility is useless if there are no trips in open time or TTGA to trade for or bid on.

For example, out of the 42 trips (which in itself is less than normal) in MCO Capt. ELITT, 4 are PMs. :eek:

MudhammedCJ
04-27-2018, 06:42 AM
Question from a guy at another Legacy....

What is a 5-6 yr. FO making, if he/she flies their line (no premium trips) and pulls 16-18 days off a month? W-2 wise....
It would be closer to 170K. That is just pay. No B-plan or PS.

ANGFlight81
04-27-2018, 07:46 AM
It would be closer to 170K. That is just pay. No B-plan or PS.

Inaccurate.

Mighty041
04-27-2018, 08:01 AM
Inaccurate.
No, that's pretty accurate. 4th year rate $123.23X107TFPx12months=$158.2K. Factoring in per diem you get to around $170. He said "flies their line, no premium".

Burton78
04-27-2018, 08:33 AM
No, that's pretty accurate. 4th year rate $123.23X107TFPx12months=$158.2K. Factoring in per diem you get to around $170. He said "flies their line, no premium".


He also said 5-6 year FO. I'm not sure why you are citing 4th year rates. The way I read it, he was asking about an FO on 6 year rates such as the FO has been here 5 years already. The range would also vary depending on if said FO consistently has 18 days off a month or 16.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SimMonkey
04-27-2018, 08:41 AM
personal best last June 187 :) 100 trips were premium. Three year FO.

SlipKid
04-27-2018, 09:01 AM
My personal best was 142.


I averaged 47tfp per day of "actual work" that month. :eek:

Squallrider
04-27-2018, 09:38 AM
seems like the consensus is 100-110 on reserve in mdw is doable?

RJSAviator76
04-27-2018, 09:40 AM
seems like the consensus is 100-110 on reserve in mdw is doable?


Without even trying...

Squallrider
04-27-2018, 09:54 AM
Without even trying...

Excellent hopefully get mdw soon

SlipKid
04-27-2018, 09:56 AM
Without even trying...


He wonít even have to work 20 days per month for that! ;)

RJSAviator76
04-27-2018, 09:59 AM
He wonít even have to work 20 days per month for that! ;)



Only if he wants a bunch of 2nd year pay... ;)

SlipKid
04-27-2018, 10:02 AM
Only if he wants a bunch of 2nd year pay... ;)

In that case, heíd better be making a heck of a lot more than 100 to 110, or heís doing it wrong. :eek:

RJSAviator76
04-27-2018, 11:49 AM
In that case, heíd better be making a heck of a lot more than 100 to 110, or heís doing it wrong. :eek:



Without a doubt.

Thunder1
04-28-2018, 01:47 PM
Here is one data point:

Just ended April with 169 TFP -- 11 days actual flying, 8 days of reserve sitting at home without getting called plus 20 TFP vacation pay the last 3 days of the month.
So, 169 - 48 reserve pay - 20 vacation pay=101 TFP / 11 days
9.18 TFP per day of actual flying

P.S> - Didn't bid reserve for the month -- traded some of my trips for reserve when I thought there was a good chance of sitting at home.

ANGFlight81
04-28-2018, 02:22 PM
Question from a guy at another Legacy....

What is a 5-6 yr. FO making, if he/she flies their line (no premium trips) and pulls 16-18 days off a month? W-2 wise....

So, what is your buddy making as 5-6 year FO? W-2 wise

ZapBrannigan
04-30-2018, 10:16 AM
A simple change in nomenclature would make life a lot easier dealing with mortgage lenders and banks.

Change Trips For Pay (tfp) to Credit Hours.

Leave the formula as is if you want. Just calling it hours would make things much easier.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

BLAHBLAHBLAH
04-30-2018, 05:17 PM
What are you willing to give up for that.

MG386
04-30-2018, 08:36 PM
A simple change in nomenclature would make life a lot easier dealing with mortgage lenders and banks.

Change Trips For Pay (tfp) to Credit Hours.

Leave the formula as is if you want. Just calling it hours would make things much easier.


Sent from my iPad using TapatalkI was in the middle of buying a new build house when I got hired, and had no problem getting approved giving the mortgage company the HR number for employment verification. Was a very simple process. They just use average line value X payrate...

Just my experience and .02$

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

Warhawg01
04-30-2018, 09:17 PM
Yea, I had zero issue with this when I bought my house last year. They donít care about TFP or credit hours or bushels of whatever. What do you make in dollars? How you get to that number didn't really seem relevant. Pretty sure when I sent them my pay statements, they looked at the bottom line.

Twinjetav8r
05-01-2018, 07:43 AM
So not true :confused:



I could have held a blank line this month, but bid a sweet reserve line. Iím sitting at home in my PJís now making money. I wish we could elitt reserve blocks. That would be even better.


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SlipKid
05-01-2018, 08:26 AM
Here is one data point:

Just ended April with 169 TFP -- 11 days actual flying, 8 days of reserve sitting at home without getting called plus 20 TFP vacation pay the last 3 days of the month.
So, 169 - 48 reserve pay - 20 vacation pay=101 TFP / 11 days
9.18 TFP per day of actual flying

P.S> - Didn't bid reserve for the month -- traded some of my trips for reserve when I thought there was a good chance of sitting at home.


FWIW, historically, sitting 8 days of reserve in a month without getting called is not typical and IMHO is not a good thing for the vast majority of the pilot group.:eek:

Hopefully, we'll get back to our more typical manning model when flying picks up in the next month or so.

CowboyPilot79
05-01-2018, 01:03 PM
I've looked around and can't find anything (Other than that screenshot someone posted). Is there a good place to see the current $/TFP rates for FO/CA instead of looking at APCs guesstimate conversion?

RJSAviator76
05-01-2018, 01:05 PM
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180501/6cde2bbdd42ec5018a11f7dca7ca6e18.jpg

flyguy81
05-01-2018, 06:42 PM
FWIW, historically, sitting 8 days of reserve in a month without getting called is not typical and IMHO is not a good thing for the vast majority of the pilot group.:eek:

Hopefully, we'll get back to our more typical manning model when flying picks up in the next month or so.

Iíve been here 2.5 yrs and most months Iíve been on rsv Iíve gone 4-8 days unused with a pass preference. Obv worked more with a fly preference but still went a couple unused days a month.

SlipKid
05-01-2018, 07:13 PM
Iíve been here 2.5 yrs and most months Iíve been on rsv Iíve gone 4-8 days unused with a pass preference. Obv worked more with a fly preference but still went a couple unused days a month.

As I said, this is definitely not the norm, historically, for our reserve usage. :eek:

e6bpilot
05-01-2018, 07:33 PM
As I said, this is definitely not the norm, historically, for our reserve usage. :eek:



I can attest to that. Summer is going to be a goat rope. Wait until the weather and delays start piling on. At least we have 30 minute turns scheduled at mega stations.

WHACKMASTER
05-01-2018, 08:50 PM
I can attest to that. Summer is going to be a goat rope. Wait until the weather and delays start piling on. At least we have 30 minute turns scheduled at mega stations.

$$$$$$$$ :D

SlipKid
05-02-2018, 08:07 AM
I can attest to that. Summer is going to be a goat rope. Wait until the weather and delays start piling on. At least we have 30 minute turns scheduled at mega stations.

I hope so! The last few months, open time has been bone dry, with very senior folks picking up at straight most of the time. :eek:

e6bpilot
05-02-2018, 08:12 AM
I hope so! The last few months, open time has been bone dry, with very senior folks picking up at straight most of the time. :eek:



Itís been sorta ok on the FO side. We have new hires picking up straight, but I have managed to do semi ok this Spring. Lots of reserves, though.
Jan and Feb were super dry. Like TTGA had nothing in it.

SlipKid
05-02-2018, 08:18 AM
It’s been sorta ok on the FO side. We have new hires picking up straight, but I have managed to do semi ok this Spring. Lots of reserves, though.
Jan and Feb were super dry. Like TTGA had nothing in it.

It's still like that in MCO Capt. I had my board cleared for April and May, and ended up getting one (lucky!) premium trip in April and building up an 11 day, 95 tfp line from ELITT and TTGA.

May is even worse. Nothing but AMs in ELITT and TTGA and not that many of those most days. I'm gonna be in the low 90's again with 11 days. Last year I was well into the high 120s in May working the same number of days.

I've never seen it like this, outside of Jan/Feb and the occasional Sept. :eek:

hoover
05-02-2018, 01:06 PM
I could have had a line but bid reserve since last sept to sit at home. I usually get used 4-5 days a month and pick up 2 turns a month for 110 average tfp. Got used a lot on reserve in April . Only sat one 3 day block.
Bid a line in may and probably will all summer as our reserve rules still need tweaking for being rerouted etc. And summer is the time for that.

flyguy81
05-02-2018, 02:59 PM
I could have had a line but bid reserve since last sept to sit at home. I usually get used 4-5 days a month and pick up 2 turns a month for 110 average tfp. Got used a lot on reserve in April . Only sat one 3 day block.
Bid a line in may and probably will all summer as our reserve rules still need tweaking for being rerouted etc. And summer is the time for that.

Bid rsv this month and wonít again until Sept. I got a lot going on over the summer and donít want a phone tether...

ZapBrannigan
05-03-2018, 02:55 AM
Although reserves canít be JAd. During the summer, that ainít nothing!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Caveman
05-03-2018, 04:43 AM
Well, for the last year or so SWAPA has been conducting polls on every single section of the CBA and then using the results to write language for Contract 2020.

In the meantime the strike preparedness committee was never stood down. Instead they have been participating in informational picketing at other carriers including JetBlue and Spirit - arguably learning what works and what doesnít.

The communications committee has been creating new channels including electronic and paper Reporting Points and Negotiating Point.

The association has been building relationships with other unions by hosting an annual independent pilots union conference in Dallas last year. Another is scheduled for October this year.

The SWAPA President, a known firebrand, is eligible for one more term which will carry him into the 2020 negotiation cycle. He isnít likely to become LESS aggressive during that time.

The company still has yet to embark on any interline or codeshare relationships. Once they do they will likely look to Ďtweakí the CBA language in order to match their business plans.

Now looking outside of SWA, American and United both have massive retirements that will occur in the next decade. American has stated they donít even have the training capacity to fill the vacancies. The resulting upward movement will create astonishing training floats at AA, requiring unprecedented hiring. To meet that need, they have pioneered flow through programs with a number of regionals. Their efforts have been duplicated with regional partners at United and Delta. Even Frontier recently started a flow through relationship with Trans States. JetBlue is still building their ďzero to heroĒ program.

So the question I might ask if I were a recruiter is, ďWhat does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their Ďcradle to graveí career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?Ē Even if everything else were equal those other carriers offer choices that WN never could. Widebodies airplanes to worldwide destinations. Pay scales that far outpace 737 rates on their larger aircraft.

The challenge for the company will be figuring out how to recruit and retain pilots in the face of all of this competition to recruit and retain pilots. Even absent any negotiations at all, I believe theyíll have to figure out ways to sweeten the pot. What will that look like? Who knows. Space positive commuting? Live wherever you want? More money? More time off? Who knows... but what I DO know, is that the supply and demand curve is firmly in our favor when it comes to negotiating improvements in 2020. The only thing that could put the brakes on would be a catastrophic event that stunts the air travel market at large.

Just the opinion of one industry observer.




Sent from my iPad using TapatalkGreat post [emoji106]

Caveman
05-03-2018, 04:45 AM
What do you think the % is of the pilot group reviewing the education material being presented in the S-E-P cycle?

e6bpilot
05-03-2018, 05:08 AM
Although reserves canít be JAd. During the summer, that ainít nothing!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk



Semantics (sorta). Yeah, you wonít get JAd at home, but they arenít shy about the ďunscheduled overnightĒ which certainly feels like a JA with another name. Usually happens right before the last leg home going through a base. They will call and reroute you to an overnight and an additional day.
Good news is you can have them pull another reserve day (without pay) later.

SlipKid
05-03-2018, 09:13 AM
What do you think the % is of the pilot group reviewing the education material being presented in the S-E-P cycle?

I'd put that number at around 16%. ;)

ZapBrannigan
05-03-2018, 10:30 AM
Yeah. I think Iím the definition of ďself selection biasĒ. I take every single poll and look forward to the next one. [emoji23]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

shoelu
05-07-2018, 07:31 PM
Well, for the last year or so SWAPA has been conducting polls on every single section of the CBA and then using the results to write language for Contract 2020.

In the meantime the strike preparedness committee was never stood down. Instead they have been participating in informational picketing at other carriers including JetBlue and Spirit - arguably learning what works and what doesnít.

The communications committee has been creating new channels including electronic and paper Reporting Points and Negotiating Point.

The association has been building relationships with other unions by hosting an annual independent pilots union conference in Dallas last year. Another is scheduled for October this year.

The SWAPA President, a known firebrand, is eligible for one more term which will carry him into the 2020 negotiation cycle. He isnít likely to become LESS aggressive during that time.

The company still has yet to embark on any interline or codeshare relationships. Once they do they will likely look to Ďtweakí the CBA language in order to match their business plans.

Now looking outside of SWA, American and United both have massive retirements that will occur in the next decade. American has stated they donít even have the training capacity to fill the vacancies. The resulting upward movement will create astonishing training floats at AA, requiring unprecedented hiring. To meet that need, they have pioneered flow through programs with a number of regionals. Their efforts have been duplicated with regional partners at United and Delta. Even Frontier recently started a flow through relationship with Trans States. JetBlue is still building their ďzero to heroĒ program.

So the question I might ask if I were a recruiter is, ďWhat does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their Ďcradle to graveí career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?Ē Even if everything else were equal those other carriers offer choices that WN never could. Widebodies airplanes to worldwide destinations. Pay scales that far outpace 737 rates on their larger aircraft.

The challenge for the company will be figuring out how to recruit and retain pilots in the face of all of this competition to recruit and retain pilots. Even absent any negotiations at all, I believe theyíll have to figure out ways to sweeten the pot. What will that look like? Who knows. Space positive commuting? Live wherever you want? More money? More time off? Who knows... but what I DO know, is that the supply and demand curve is firmly in our favor when it comes to negotiating improvements in 2020. The only thing that could put the brakes on would be a catastrophic event that stunts the air travel market at large.

Just the opinion of one industry observer.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'm not on here very much, but this is a spot on post!

I must admit though, when I came to SWA it was the highest paying narrow body gig in the industry however, that is not what drew me to SWA. I know everyone spouts that "past precedent is no indication of future performance" but what else do we have to go on?

I was drawn to SWA because it had the best balance sheet in the industry. I was drawn to SWA because it had 30+ years of profitability. I was drawn to SWA because I thought it had the best business model to withstand an economic downturn. I was drawn to SWA because I viewed it to have the best "career long" viability in the industry.

I think a lot of folks still choose SWA for some of these reasons over potentially larger shorter term gains at other carriers. However, one must weigh positives and negatives. I'm not sure how long SWA will tip the scales greatly enough to lure future pilot candidates!

Happyflyer
05-08-2018, 05:38 AM
So the question I might ask if I were a recruiter is, ďWhat does a largely domestic operator of only 737s - one who is below industry standard in compensation, Retirement, and benefits - have to offer a potential pilot candidate that will entice them to leave behind their Ďcradle to graveí career path with one of the legacies and come to work here?Ē

Easy, base seniority.
System senority doesn't matter if the equipment or base is 1,000 miles from your house.
There are plenty of SW bases that are in the same towns as legacy bases, and offer a much quicker path to a line with 15 days off, I would think.
If I have flow to AA in less than 3 years you think I should wait, or take a job at SW in the next 6 months?
I don't look at it as giving up a 777 job in my 60's, I look at it as getting to 150k a year as fast as possible and holding it for as long as possible.
I would be interested to learn what 3 years at SW gets you in ATL, DAL, HOU, vs legacys. I could be wrong, but I'am guessing higher base senority in at least 2 of those towns.
When you leavin a regional with small kids, and a working spouse, what you get to operate when your grandkids are on the way doesn't rank very high on the priority list. I am not intending to be short sighted, but a balance has to be determined.

flyguy81
05-08-2018, 07:00 AM
Easy, base seniority.
System senority doesn't matter if the equipment or base is 1,000 miles from your house.
There are plenty of SW bases that are in the same towns as legacy bases, and offer a much quicker path to a line with 15 days off, I would think.
If I have flow to AA in less than 3 years you think I should wait, or take a job at SW in the next 6 months?
I don't look at it as giving up a 777 job in my 60's, I look at it as getting to 150k a year as fast as possible and holding it for as long as possible.
I would be interested to learn what 3 years at SW gets you in ATL, DAL, HOU, vs legacys. I could be wrong, but I'am guessing higher base senority in at least 2 of those towns.
When you leavin a regional with small kids, and a working spouse, what you get to operate when your grandkids are on the way doesn't rank very high on the priority list. I am not intending to be short sighted, but a balance has to be determined.

I'm a late 2015 hire and here's where I am at 2.5 yrs seniority system wide:

ATL 93%
BWI 60%
DAL 62%
DEN 63%
HOU 57%
LAS 60%
MCO 73%
MDW 62%
OAK 56%
PHX 59%

I'm also 1850 from the most jr CA with 970 FO's ahead of me bypassing.

I'm DEN based and would be 85% at UAL on the 737.

ZapBrannigan
05-08-2018, 07:15 AM
Thatís a neat exercise. Letís take a look.

Iím an early 2014 hire. About 4.5 years in.

ATL 90%
BWI 51%
DAL 45%
DEN 47%
HOU 42%
LAS 46%
MCO 66%
MDW 52%
OAK 38%
PHX 44%

If we project an annual growth of the seniority list at about 7% (roughly 650 pilots per year) Iíd hit 60% in early 2021 shortly over 7 years on the property. The most junior Captain today sits at about 61.6%.


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ANGFlight81
05-08-2018, 07:29 AM
Thatís a neat exercise. Letís take a look.

Iím an early 2014 hire. About 4.5 years in.

ATL 90%
BWI 51%
DAL 45%
DEN 47%
HOU 42%
LAS 46%
MCO 66%
MDW 52%
OAK 38%
PHX 44%

If we project an annual growth of the seniority list at about 7% (roughly 650 pilots) Iíd hit 60% in early 2021 shortly over 7 years on the property. The most junior Captain today sits at about 61.6%.


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Well they were projecting that the 2016 new hires would be looking at a 6 year upgrade. (Given itís the airlines, a little ripple in the economy, terrorist attack, age 67, all bets off).

saab2000
05-08-2018, 07:32 AM
I wonder if many of these bypassing F/Os will continue to bypass or when things begin to accelerate if they plan to take the upgrade. I assume many who live in domicile will wait until they can hold that domicile and many will even wait until they can hold a line in domicile. Then there will be those who choose to stay on the right seat because of QOL issues and scheduling flexibility.

I'm a Feb. 2017 hire and every month I seem to move up a few in MDW. It appears I can hold hard lines most of the time now.

ANGFlight81
05-08-2018, 07:37 AM
I speak with a lot of senior FOís that say they wonít bother upgrading...whether or not itís the case only time will tell.

e6bpilot
05-08-2018, 07:54 AM
I think in a downturn or hiring slowdown, a few would take the upgrade. Way less than half.
A senior FO once told me that being a senior FO was ďsome pretty tall cottonĒ. I didnít really get what he meant until I peeled back the onion.
Bid a primo line and either fly it and have a great month home most nights or give it away and make a killing being the king of open time.
Three or four premium vacation weeks means 1.5-2 months off. Paid.
The ability to lance if you want.
The ability to tailor your schedule to your whims and desires.

A FO on premium pay is making more than the reserve captain he is flying with and he doesnít have to call and ask to be released at the end of a trip.

Why would anyone in that situation upgrade? I think being a FO is awesome. The captain is all briefing FAs and talking to dispatch about fuel and I am sitting over there updating my Twitter account.
Now, there are times I want to strangle the person in that seat, but that is pretty rare.

saab2000
05-08-2018, 08:06 AM
I think in a downturn or hiring slowdown, a few would take the upgrade. Way less than half.
A senior FO once told me that being a senior FO was ďsome pretty tall cottonĒ. I didnít really get what he meant until I peeled back the onion.
Bid a primo line and either fly it and have a great month home most nights or give it away and make a killing being the king of open time.
Three or four premium vacation weeks means 1.5-2 months off. Paid.
The ability to lance if you want.
The ability to tailor your schedule to your whims and desires.

A FO on premium pay is making more than the reserve captain he is flying with and he doesnít have to call and ask to be released at the end of a trip.

Why would anyone in that situation upgrade? I think being a FO is awesome. The captain is all briefing FAs and talking to dispatch about fuel and I am sitting over there updating my Twitter account.
Now, there are times I want to strangle the person in that seat, but that is pretty rare.

All of this is true. I've enjoyed being an F/O here more than I did at my previous airline (where I got the type and time on type which got me the interview here). But in my previous long life at a regional being captain was the way to go. I took first available upgrade and never once regretted it but the situation and the overall vibe here is very, very different (better).

That said, I'll probably take first available again but the points you mention are very valid. The biggest reason I'd take it is that I liked the job on the left seat and setting the tone and flying with my favorite captain every day. But again, it's so different here than anyplace I've ever been that it mostly doesn't matter. Here everyone (almost) was a captain in a previous life and usually for a long time, so the vibe is more one of a team of captains than a hierarchy, if that makes any sense.

The senior F/Os do have an amazing amount of control of their destiny, from scheduling and open time flying, especially in domicile.

Smooth at FL450
05-08-2018, 08:56 AM
Why would anyone in that situation upgrade? I think being a FO is awesome. The captain is all briefing FAs and talking to dispatch about fuel and I am sitting over there updating my Twitter account.
Now, there are times I want to strangle the person in that seat, but that is pretty rare.

Biggest reason I can think of to take the first available upgrade is this: in the event I go out on extended medical, I want my sick bank to pay out at a captains rate vs FO rate. That math is compelling when you'll need the funds the most. As a junior FO, I'm glad so many are bypassing...just gets me to that decision point faster!

e6bpilot
05-08-2018, 09:20 AM
I get that reasoning, but to me going out unexpectedly vs the huge QOL hit by taking the first available upgrade to OAK RSV is not worth it, even in a down economy.
It is good to have choices, though, and if this whole seniority thing pans out like it looks like it may vs 20 year upgrade that was advertised when I got hired right after the merger, well then thatís icing on the cake.

ZapBrannigan
05-08-2018, 09:51 AM
Agreed. If upgrade opportunity is on this side of ten years then Iíll be very happy. And anyone who wants to commute to OAK for the first shot at the left seat wonít have to compete with me for the privilege.

Itíll be interesting to see how LAX changes the demographics.


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Smooth at FL450
05-08-2018, 10:31 AM
I get that reasoning, but to me going out unexpectedly vs the huge QOL hit by taking the first available upgrade to OAK RSV is not worth it, even in a down economy.
It is good to have choices, though, and if this whole seniority thing pans out like it looks like it may vs 20 year upgrade that was advertised when I got hired right after the merger, well then thatís icing on the cake.

I'm within 2 hours driving time of OAK...so that does change my perspective a bit.

flyguy81
05-08-2018, 10:35 AM
I'll bypass until I can hold LAS at least. Hotels are cheap and commute is easy. Depends on time of the year too...if I'm gonna pull the trigger and it's close to VAC bidding time might as well hold off and get a few good FO weeks that'll transfer.

SlipKid
05-08-2018, 11:02 AM
I wonder if many of these bypassing F/Os will continue to bypass or when things begin to accelerate if they plan to take the upgrade. I assume many who live in domicile will wait until they can hold that domicile and many will even wait until they can hold a line in domicile. Then there will be those who choose to stay on the right seat because of QOL issues and scheduling flexibility.

In MCO, I've flown and still fly with a ton of folks who've bypassed upgrade to avoid a commute. I've even flown with a few that upgraded, got sick of commuting and bid back to the right seat asap.

FOs sitting in the top 20% in MCO tend to live in domicile, are getting more or less the lines they want, which means they can bid lines with trips that are more likely to be picked up out of TTGA and they're senior enough to play the premium game on a regular basis.

Most senior FOs tell me that they need about 130 tfp to equal the average reserve Capt pay. Considering that commuting is gonna add at least, 4 days to your month commuting, it's a no brainer.

Even at straight time, adding a 4 day to your 12 day FO board will bring you up to 120 or so, and you have much more flexibility and will only be working an extra day or so.

If they play the premium game, they're WAY money and time off ahead. I've flown with more than a couple of FOs who's W2s put mine to shame. They are working their butts off though.

Most of the guys I've flown with waited until they could hold a line at a one leg commute domicile (lately, HOU has been the go to), then made the jump. Several waited until they could hold at least reserve in MCO.

Happyflyer
05-08-2018, 02:59 PM
I'm a late 2015 hire and here's where I am at 2.5 yrs seniority system wide:

ATL 93%
BWI 60%
DAL 62%
DEN 63%
HOU 57%
LAS 60%
MCO 73%
MDW 62%
OAK 56%
PHX 59%

I'm also 1850 from the most jr CA with 970 FO's ahead of me bypassing.

I'm DEN based and would be 85% at UAL on the 737.

This seems to be the case with SW, that your bidding senority is higher in most bases, especially the desirable ones. Except ATL compared to Delta.

I think it's 3 years at AA to hold DFW.

I think a 1998 hire at United is a rsv captain in IAH, and 1999 hire is rsv captain in DFW at AA, probably both in their mid 50's.

Do y'all think a 98/99 SW guy would be off Rsv in HOU/DAL?

Smooth at FL450
05-08-2018, 03:03 PM
Do y'all think a 98/99 SW guy would be off Rsv in HOU/DAL?

yeah, more than 10 years ago. With summer vacation too.

mainlineAF
05-08-2018, 03:25 PM
This seems to be the case with SW, that your bidding senority is higher in most bases, especially the desirable ones. Except ATL compared to Delta.



I think it's 3 years at AA to hold DFW.



I think a 1998 hire at United is a rsv captain in IAH, and 1999 hire is rsv captain in DFW at AA, probably both in their mid 50's.



Do y'all think a 98/99 SW guy would be off Rsv in HOU/DAL?



At AA DFW has been an option for new hires the last few months on the 80. Junior 737 is a 1/17 hire and trending down.

The seniority picture at the various bases is skewed from the seniority integration. Iíd expect maybe 6 months to DFW as the movement starts to accelerate.

SlipKid
05-08-2018, 03:35 PM
yeah, more than 10 years ago. With summer vacation too.

At least. I'd bet more like 15 years.

Thunder1
05-08-2018, 03:48 PM
With our new contract 1.5 years ago the number of FO's bypassing upgrade has increased. It used to be that the most junior Captain on the master seniority list was right at 59%. For the June bid the most junior Captain is at 61.16%. (5761 out of 9419)
So, with 9419 pilots now that is an additional 203 F/Os that are bypassing upgrade compared to what was going on before the new contract.
I think that the number is going to go even higher -- I think over the next 18 months that we will see it level off at around 63% seniority for the most junior Captain on the master seniority list.
Good news for those that want to take the first available upgrade.

Twinjetav8r
05-08-2018, 04:39 PM
I moved to Chicago two weeks ago. I have am reserve this month. I just finished 3 days of reserve and didnít fly at all and got paid. I love it. I work Sun-Tues. not a bad line. Pick up a little here and there and am scheduled for 120 TFPs. Damn, I love this job!


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WrrEagle97
05-28-2018, 06:44 AM
A friend of mine works for SWA and showed me his pay rates on the SWAPA site. It shows 1st year FO pay at $69 per hour vs $79 shown on this site. Typo? Different way to calculate? Some other reason?

Nutz
05-28-2018, 06:52 AM
A friend of mine works for SWA and showed me his pay rates on the SWAPA site. It shows 1st year FO pay at $69 per hour vs $79 shown on this site. Typo? Different way to calculate? Some other reason?

SWA 1st year pay is $69 per ďtripĒ not hour. The $79 is an estimated conversion to what it would be if it were hourly

Smooth at FL450
05-28-2018, 07:24 AM
A friend of mine works for SWA and showed me his pay rates on the SWAPA site. It shows 1st year FO pay at $69 per hour vs $79 shown on this site. Typo? Different way to calculate? Some other reason?


"trip" rate x 1.149 = "hourly" rate. We like to make things confusing.

WrrEagle97
05-28-2018, 07:41 AM
Thanks for the clarification