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View Full Version : CA Shortage Critical


gripngrab
04-23-2018, 05:27 PM
HVA program not working. Word on the street is cancelled summer vacations and a short term suspension of the flow (June, July)


ordflyer8794
04-23-2018, 05:29 PM
The moment they mess with the flow, a lot of us, including me, are out of here.

Seaplane
04-23-2018, 05:31 PM
HVA program not working. Word on the street is cancelled summer vacations and a short term suspension of the flow (June, July)

8 threads down the list. This topic was brought up. Do you people not read the titles of other threads? You simply had to look 8 spaces down.....


wiz5422
04-23-2018, 06:01 PM
The moment they mess with the flow, a lot of us, including me, are out of here.

Same here.....even if it is only 1 to 2 months. That is just the start. What will they do during the holiday months etc? Once flow is messed with they will never stop.

ordflyer8794
04-23-2018, 06:05 PM
I recently started updating my logbook and getting my resume ready. My apps will be out the day they announce a slow of the flow. Enough.

TransWorld
04-23-2018, 06:12 PM
Same here.....even if it is only 1 to 2 months. That is just the start. What will they do during the holiday months etc? Once flow is messed with they will never stop.

AA has 25 classes schedule for this year. Every two weeks except nothing around Christmas. Same as last year, and the year before. . .

flysooner9
04-23-2018, 06:22 PM
HVA isnít working because nobody wants to go sit 2 years of reserve in LGA. I donít see why they donít offer home based lines for LGA flying. Seems like the cost of an A1 ticket to/from work would be a small price to pay to properly staff the CA side of the airline.

NavyRotorhead
04-23-2018, 08:35 PM
HVA isnít working because nobody wants to go sit 2 years of reserve in LGA. I donít see why they donít offer home based lines for LGA flying. Seems like the cost of an A1 ticket to/from work would be a small price to pay to properly staff the CA side of the airline.

Doesn't help having to sit standby out of a crashpad when you are a reserve captain for 2 years. Maybe if they fix the reserve system as well. Just kidding. We know that'll never happen.

wiz5422
04-23-2018, 08:43 PM
AA has 25 classes schedule for this year. Every two weeks except nothing around Christmas. Same as last year, and the year before. . .

I am not saying AA will stop classes, I am saying once envoy stops the flow it will happen again and again.

TransWorld
04-23-2018, 08:49 PM
I am not saying AA will stop classes, I am saying once envoy stops the flow it will happen again and again.

Sorry I misinterpreted your statement “during the holiday months”. Not certain why Envoy would stop flow specifically during the holiday months (compared to any other time), assume you have a rationale for that.

flysooner9
04-23-2018, 09:43 PM
Doesn't help having to sit standby out of a crashpad when you are a reserve captain for 2 years. Maybe if they fix the reserve system as well. Just kidding. We know that'll never happen.

Well give them hotel rooms as well. Basically a TDY

Virga show
04-23-2018, 10:05 PM
Envoy knows that if they mess with the flow the resignations would be unbearable. I seriously doubt they are willing to play with fire. They rather junior man you than mess with the flow.

Aviatrx
04-24-2018, 12:43 AM
Unfortunately the negotiations have yielded low ball offers as far as reserve goes. It would help to lock in some long call and an opportunity for A passes for reserves commute to work. It would make for better recruiting carrots. Money doesnít seem to be the answer that many have hoped would be for solving this Captain puzzle. Also, doesnít help we ran out all the low value aviators during bankruptcy negotiations.

havick206
04-24-2018, 12:50 AM
Unfortunately the negotiations have yielded low ball offers as far as reserve goes. It would help to lock in some long call and an opportunity for A passes for reserves commute to work. It would make for better recruiting carrots. Money doesnít seem to be the answer that many have hoped would be for solving this Captain puzzle. Also, doesnít help we ran out all the low value aviators during bankruptcy negotiations.

What are you smoking? Money is the answer, in pay rates and not in form of a bonus in addition to better reserve rules.

Street CAís arenít coming here because they can get better money elsewhere.

Aviatrx
04-24-2018, 02:47 AM
Not true. Clearly you donít know who we are hiring. Many are prior 121 who left for corporate who are now trying to kick start their legacy carrier after many years of no interview offers. They are leaving good paying jobs to take a pay cut and work here. There are some FO laterals too, but not as many as you think. QOL and Flow are most important here and now

gripngrab
04-24-2018, 02:52 AM
Not true. Clearly you don’t know who we are hiring. Many are prior 121 who left for corporate who are now trying to kick start their legacy carrier after many years of no interview offers. They are leaving good paying jobs to take a pay cut and work here. There are some FO laterals too, but not as many as you think.

My inside sources indicate that while it is true that a number of HVA's have shown up, there just aren't enough when projecting out through the summer. AAG continues to want to add flying at Envoy and the numbers do not work. In other words, critical mass will be reached very soon thus the vacation cancellations per contract and a temporary halt to the flow for the months of June and July, also per the contract (operational necessity), will likely be announced in the coming weeks.

Also, I read above that AA has no slowdown of classes. That is also true. The problem is on the Envoy side where the shortage of Captain's has reached a critical level, especially when taking the summer flying schedule into consideration.

Bigpimppilot
04-24-2018, 03:23 AM
Not true. Clearly you donít know who we are hiring. Many are prior 121 who left for corporate who are now trying to kick start their legacy carrier after many years of no interview offers. They are leaving good paying jobs to take a pay cut and work here. There are some FO laterals too, but not as many as you think. QOL and Flow are most important here and now


Iím sure we are only getting those guys currently. The reason why we arenít getting more Expressjet, tsa, and other disgruntleds is that they canít justify coming here and making less if they are ďgood enoughĒ to get hired at a higher paying place. Example: if Envoy went tits up tomorrow and you were resigned to commuting would you choose Mesa or endeavor? Ans: endeavor. And thatís why their classes are all full.
Our pay may not be matched yet because envoy knows there is a few months before open endeavor classes. Perhaps they figure some high value aviators may choose not to wait on a class and we can get them cheap

AcesHigh
04-24-2018, 03:25 AM
My inside sources indicate that while it is true that a number of HVA's have shown up, there just aren't enough when projecting out through the summer. AAG continues to want to add flying at Envoy and the numbers do not work. In other words, critical mass will be reached very soon thus the vacation cancellations per contract and a temporary halt to the flow for the months of June and July, also per the contract (operational necessity), will likely be announced in the coming weeks.

Also, I read above that AA has no slowdown of classes. That is also true. The problem is on the Envoy side where the shortage of Captain's has reached a critical level, especially when taking the summer flying schedule into consideration.

Well the writing on the wall has been clear for sometime now in regards to a shortage.

Envoy has had sufficient time to take the measures to mitigate the circumstances that they're currently in and they've currently shot themselves in the foot by not being proactive in the recruiting process.

Word gets around quick about what's going on around here so why would anyone in their right mind want to make a lateral move here when majors are hiring, ULCC's are hiring and thensome.

More and more people are jumping to the likes of Spirit due to their new contract and Frontier for the better pay amongst other things.

Pay/QOL is a MAJOR issue. We all know this. Flow is right up there too.

But watch more people catch on going to these other carriers, skipping Flow and getting to AA faster.

Somethings gotta give, and hopefully it comes sooner than later, especially for those who've been on property longer than me that still have 2-3 years before they flow.

gripngrab
04-24-2018, 04:01 AM
I would personally expect that when this announcement is made, it would be highly stressed as temporary and only for op necessity. The stress on temporary would likely be mentioned several times. I would also expect something along the lines of a promise to catch back up later in the year perhaps.

BIueSideUp
04-24-2018, 04:02 AM
Not to beat a dead horse any further into the ground, but I know for a fact that myself and a lot of other FOs in my position would be busting our butts to get into the left seat if it was something to be desired. The pay raise is a freakin pittance and QOL immediately tanks (for longer too), oh and now you're the one with the company and passengers breathing down your neck and everyone looks to you for the answers.

The way this company treats its pilots is such a joke. Good grief, the foreign pilot mill flight school that I used to work at was better than this. This type of management/operations relationship is NOT something you should see in a profession of this caliber. The only other time that I've been part of a work group that was treated like this was working on a factory floor building RVs. We really shouldn't put up with this.

I know "this job is a stepping stone" and "just get your time and get out", but that doesn't mean it has to be a ********y place to work. That's a stupid justification and is really just letting the heads off the hook when you say something like that. Look at Spirit. They just turned into a much bigger career destination than they used to be. You'd have more lifers, better recruits to select from, a happier work group, better experiences for the customer, etc, if life was improved here. That's how you grow a company; not with signing bonuses.

If this stepping stone becomes the slimiest one around, people will stop stepping on it.

AZPilotMike
04-24-2018, 05:20 AM
Not to beat a dead horse any further into the ground, but I know for a fact that myself and a lot of other FOs in my position would be busting our butts to get into the left seat if it was something to be desired. The pay raise is a freakin pittance and QOL immediately tanks (for longer too), oh and now you're the one with the company and passengers breathing down your neck and everyone looks to you for the answers.

The way this company treats its pilots is such a joke. Good grief, the foreign pilot mill flight school that I used to work at was better than this. This type of management/operations relationship is NOT something you should see in a profession of this caliber. The only other time that I've been part of a work group that was treated like this was working on a factory floor building RVs. We really shouldn't put up with this.

I know "this job is a stepping stone" and "just get your time and get out", but that doesn't mean it has to be a ********y place to work. That's a stupid justification and is really just letting the heads off the hook when you say something like that. Look at Spirit. They just turned into a much bigger career destination than they used to be. You'd have more lifers, better recruits to select from, a happier work group, better experiences for the customer, etc, if life was improved here. That's how you grow a company; not with signing bonuses.

If this stepping stone becomes the slimiest one around, people will stop stepping on it.
Well said and I agree with almost all of it, except the part about lifers. Envoy doesn't want lifers because like most things, they don't want to pay. I am sure the math has been done and they know exactly how long to keep you employed here so as to maximize your benefit while minimizing your overall financial impact on the company.

highfarfast
04-24-2018, 05:22 AM
The moment they mess with the flow, a lot of us, including me, are out of here.

They're already messing with flow.

CaptJackSparrow
04-24-2018, 05:26 AM
Let's not forget that it was the company that put themselves in this position. I would argue that it can't be considered "operational necessity" when the company purposely ran out half the pilot group and put themselves in this mess. In the event that this actually happens, maybe it is finally our wake up call to band together.

highfarfast
04-24-2018, 05:26 AM
I've been just this side of the fence regarding Spirit since their new contract. If Envoy cancels my summer vacation, I'll be going to Spirit as soon as they'll have me.

jonrayburn
04-24-2018, 05:43 AM
HVA program not working. Word on the street is cancelled summer vacations and a short term suspension of the flow (June, July)

If this is true, what is our strategy moving forward? I highly doubt weíll see many resignations. But I could be wrong

ag386
04-24-2018, 05:58 AM
I've been just this side of the fence regarding Spirit since their new contract. If Envoy cancels my summer vacation, I'll be going to Spirit as soon as they'll have me.

Why wait? And there is no guarantee that Spirit will hire you. I applied there and was turned down. Allegiant offered me a job instead and I took it. I make less than a Spirit CA now but I am at least in the left seat making double what an Envoy CA makes, without the horrendous QOL issues that are present there.

I'm not sure how long you've been at Envoy, but if you don't have apps out to all the majors and LCCs and actively pursuing options, you are doing yourself a disservice. Waiting on the flow at Envoy is like watching paint dry. Just think, if you had applied to Spirit one year ago and were hired, you would now have around 300 people junior to you and would be making $104/hour.

If you can't get in to Spirit, try Frontier. Why? Because they are like Spirit, only a year or a bit more behind. They will get a contract and it will be on par with Spirit. It might prove easier to get in with Frontier now when there is less competition as it was at Spirit a year or more ago. Now, you have to put your app against guys with high qualifications such as a lot of PIC and perhaps a checkairman or instructor position to boot.

TransWorld
04-24-2018, 06:42 AM
They're already messing with flow.

Can you share a couple of specific examples?

ag386
04-24-2018, 06:51 AM
Can you share a couple of specific examples?

One example is metering to 25 no matter what. The contract states half of AA classes will be Envoy through the end of the PP group. With the large numbered classes over the past year and looking at retirements and class sizes going forward, Envoy pilots come out on the losing end.

As an example, say the classes are 60/month all year. With the metering to 25, 60 Envoy pilots during this hypothetical year would be denied their flow and place on the AA seniority list.

As we all know, the airline pilot life is built on seniority. It's not good enough just to eventually make it to AA when hundreds of guys come off the street above you because Envoy managers decided to interpret the contract to their benefit and not yours.

Inclined plane
04-24-2018, 07:33 AM
Iím sure we are only getting those guys currently. The reason why we arenít getting more Expressjet, tsa, and other disgruntleds is that they canít justify coming here and making less if they are ďgood enoughĒ to get hired at a higher paying place. Example: if Envoy went tits up tomorrow and you were resigned to commuting would you choose Mesa or endeavor? Ans: endeavor. And thatís why their classes are all full.

Our pay may not be matched yet because envoy knows there is a few months before open endeavor classes. Perhaps they figure some high value aviators may choose not to wait on a class and we can get them cheap


Iím tired of rampant speculation and tax advice from pilots and know nothings. Do you know something? If so lay it out there. Everyone knows already that I know nothing but I try not to give advice I know nothing about.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NoValueAviator
04-24-2018, 07:40 AM
Thanks for bringing your perspective over here, ag. The LCC route has always interested me, especially because of Allegiant's Phoenix-Mesa base in my back yard.

ordflyer8794
04-24-2018, 07:54 AM
Cadet Academy | American Airlines (http://www.aacadetacademy.com)

I'll leave this right here...

havick206
04-24-2018, 09:07 AM
Cadet Academy | American Airlines (http://www.aacadetacademy.com)

I'll leave this right here...

How is this any different from whatís already going on?

flysooner9
04-24-2018, 09:34 AM
How is this any different from whatís already going on?

Offering the lending?

Pedro4President
04-24-2018, 09:51 AM
Offering the lending?

The flight instructors are called AA cadets.

flysooner9
04-24-2018, 10:04 AM
The flight instructors are called AA cadets.

They all ready are. At least at the school I went to.

402FreightDog
04-24-2018, 10:38 AM
I recently started updating my logbook and getting my resume ready. My apps will be out the day they announce a slow of the flow. Enough.
Why wait? Get your apps in now. If/when someone calls for an interview and gives you a job offer, THEN decide whether or not to stay with Envoy and what they do with the flow. If you wait, it is that much more seniority gone by.

402FreightDog
04-24-2018, 10:47 AM
What are you smoking? Money is the answer, in pay rates and not in form of a bonus in addition to better reserve rules.

Street CAís arenít coming here because they can get better money elsewhere.

From our perspective as pilots, it is. But the company would have to pay EVERYONE more if they raise pay. Why should the raise pay and pay DFW or ORD captains more when they can continue to band aid things for much less? Forced upgrades, HVAs, TDYs, junior man, canceled vacations and squeezing the flow all cost much less.

Pedro4President
04-24-2018, 11:06 AM
From our perspective as pilots, it is. But the company would have to pay EVERYONE more if they raise pay. Why should the raise pay and pay DFW or ORD captains more when they can continue to band aid things for much less? Forced upgrades, HVAs, TDYs, junior man, canceled vacations and squeezing the flow all cost much less.

Why do these threads even start up. These threads are just as annoying as the company saying flow in 5.5 years.

The only good advice put out in this thread is to have your apps out. We know there will be an uptick in attrition if they mess with the flow. Why are we complaining and worrying about something that hasn't even happened.

OldBiff
04-24-2018, 11:35 AM
Let's not forget that it was the company that put themselves in this position. I would argue that it can't be considered "operational necessity" when the company purposely ran out half the pilot group and put themselves in this mess. In the event that this actually happens, maybe it is finally our wake up call to band together.

You could argue that... but youíd be wrong and youíd lose. The real problem is approving a ďcontractĒ with terms like operational necessity that are undefined. ****ty contracts with ambiguous language are impossible to enforce especially in an arbitration environment. We need to git gud at writing contracts aka lawyer up. This is what happens when non-lawyers write ďcontractsĒ.

TransWorld
04-24-2018, 11:51 AM
One example is metering to 25 no matter what. The contract states half of AA classes will be Envoy through the end of the PP group. With the large numbered classes over the past year and looking at retirements and class sizes going forward, Envoy pilots come out on the losing end.

As an example, say the classes are 60/month all year. With the metering to 25, 60 Envoy pilots during this hypothetical year would be denied their flow and place on the AA seniority list.

As we all know, the airline pilot life is built on seniority. It's not good enough just to eventually make it to AA when hundreds of guys come off the street above you because Envoy managers decided to interpret the contract to their benefit and not yours.

We have had this discussion before. The wording is terribly confusing. Smarter minds than I on the agreement have stated the full wording legally means half or 25, whichever is LESS. They say your interpretation is mistaken.

As the summary APPEARS to be worded, it is half or 25, whichever is GREATER. (I wish it was worded more clearly.)

Let’s say at peak retirement AA hires 160 per month (within the realm of possibility). This interpretation would mean 80 Envoy Pilots would flow every month. At that rate, pretty much every non-lifer CA would flow in a year. That would cause Envoy to completely collapse. Ask yourself, would this be what the contractual people would have agreed upon? It would not make sense.

Further, if this interpretation is correct, where is the greavance / lawsuit?

bigtime209
04-24-2018, 11:57 AM
We have had this discussion before. The wording is terribly confusing. Smarter minds than I on the agreement have stated the full wording legally means half or 25, whichever is LESS. They say your interpretation is mistaken.

As the summary APPEARS to be worded, it is half or 25, whichever is GREATER. (I wish it was worded more clearly.)

Letís say at peak retirement AA hires 160 per month (within the realm of possibility). This interpretation would mean 80 Envoy Pilots would flow every month. At that rate, pretty much every non-lifer CA would flow in a year. That would cause Envoy to completely collapse. Ask yourself, would this be what the contractual people would have agreed upon? It would not make sense.

Further, if this interpretation is correct, where is the greavance / lawsuit?

Several grievances have been filed. Problem is, an arbitrator wonít get around to hearing the case anytime soon.

TransWorld
04-24-2018, 12:17 PM
Several grievances have been filed. Problem is, an arbitrator wonít get around to hearing the case anytime soon.

I will wait with bated breath. . .

Meanwhile, does half of all hiring at peak retirement make any sense that a realistic contract negotiator would sign up to? Would Envoy sign up to voluntary corporate suicide for themsleves? Would AA let them do that? Use your head.

Bigpimppilot
04-24-2018, 12:34 PM
We have had this discussion before. The wording is terribly confusing. Smarter minds than I on the agreement have stated the full wording legally means half or 25, whichever is LESS. They say your interpretation is mistaken.

As the summary APPEARS to be worded, it is half or 25, whichever is GREATER. (I wish it was worded more clearly.)

Letís say at peak retirement AA hires 160 per month (within the realm of possibility). This interpretation would mean 80 Envoy Pilots would flow every month. At that rate, pretty much every non-lifer CA would flow in a year. That would cause Envoy to completely collapse. Ask yourself, would this be what the contractual people would have agreed upon? It would not make sense.

Further, if this interpretation is correct, where is the greavance / lawsuit?

In your scenario they would meter to 25. They should not be metering with part time lines

moon
04-24-2018, 12:52 PM
I will wait with bated breath. . .

Meanwhile, does half of all hiring at peak retirement make any sense that a realistic contract negotiator would sign up to? Would Envoy sign up to voluntary corporate suicide for themsleves? Would AA let them do that? Use your head.

It wasn't voluntary, it was bargained for. They got a lot of gains for giving us that flow. They were clueless to the realities of the pilot shortage at that time so it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't think it would be an issue. Pretty sure Pedro was on record as saying he'd park airplanes if necessary. They didn't think they would have to but they did say that.

Virga show
04-24-2018, 03:32 PM
It wasn't voluntary, it was bargained for. They got a lot of gains for giving us that flow. They were clueless to the realities of the pilot shortage at that time so it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't think it would be an issue. Pretty sure Pedro was on record as saying he'd park airplanes if necessary. They didn't think they would have to but they did say that.

They did park 50 airplanes aka 140ís and decide to bring them back.

Bigpimppilot
04-24-2018, 03:35 PM
That was during the time period when the company was telling us we were going to go out of business in 3 yrs and people were bouncing for a street captain gig at psa or tsa. Not because more guys were flowing out of the goodness of their hearts. Ps. My understanding is that they wanted to shrink us to the same size as psa and piedmont.

TransWorld
04-24-2018, 03:35 PM
Here is an additional perspective. If the interpretation is half or 25 each month, which ever is GREATER was correct:

Think about the case where hiring (after a black swan event or some other decision by AA) was 10 per month.

Using this interpretation, Envoy would be required to flow 25 and AA would be forced to accept that number, because it was the greater of half of 10 (flow of 5) or flow of 25. Again, use your head. That makes no sense.

If, on the other hand, it was half or 25 each month, which ever is LESS was correct, Envoy would be required to flow 5. That makes good sense.

drivinghome
04-24-2018, 04:01 PM
Not true. Clearly you donít know who we are hiring. Many are prior 121 who left for corporate who are now trying to kick start their legacy carrier after many years of no interview offers. They are leaving good paying jobs to take a pay cut and work here. There are some FO laterals too, but not as many as you think. QOL and Flow are most important here and now
Canít say it enough. QOL. QOL. I personally donít know anyone who wants to sit LGA RSV for 2 years, not for any amount of money.

Inop2
04-24-2018, 04:11 PM
Well said and I agree with almost all of it, except the part about lifers. Envoy doesn't want lifers because like most things, they don't want to pay. I am sure the math has been done and they know exactly how long to keep you employed here so as to maximize your benefit while minimizing your overall financial impact on the company.

And I agree with this as well. Even Chick-fil-A made working at a fast food restaurant a lot better with a corporate attitude that brings out the best in all employees and offers incredible opportunities. But then again theyíve been the focus of business excellence and innovation at Harvard and other elite business schools. AAG is a case study on what not to do.

Cujo665
04-24-2018, 04:36 PM
It wasn't voluntary, it was bargained for. They got a lot of gains for giving us that flow. They were clueless to the realities of the pilot shortage at that time so it doesn't surprise me that they wouldn't think it would be an issue. Pretty sure Pedro was on record as saying he'd park airplanes if necessary. They didn't think they would have to but they did say that.

He looked us all in the face and swore they’d park planes if they had to. A few of us asked for it in writing in the CBA, didn’t happen, told the lawyers this would happen.

LCC’s aren't the only show in town anymore either. Check the ACMI’s.
Several like Atlas, Omni and Kalitta are better than LCC’s in my opinion. Atlas is in the middle of getting a new CBA and should make out very well.
Home basing
No ready reserve
No crashpads
Long call from home
Daily pay guarantee
Business class or better on International flights over 3 hours. Omni is currently the industry highest first year pay at $113 ph. First year pay - depending what equipment and program you go into - is $87k to $108k. Upgrade under 3 years. Top step $297 ph
Schedules are typically one long trip or two short ones. Last year average was 14 days away from home per month for pilots. Friends at all three like it. Their time at home is theirs, no junior manning from home. They don’t have to plan commutes, or jumpseat, they keep all the air miles and are executive platinum, they keep hotel points too.

No excuse to put up with the BS anymore....

Azorian
04-24-2018, 04:51 PM
I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math

flysooner9
04-24-2018, 05:24 PM
I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math

Sources I have is nothing more then a trickle. 2 or 3 per class. Will probably be less in the future as more regionals are offering street captain gigs

Virga show
04-24-2018, 05:58 PM
He looked us all in the face and swore theyíd park planes if they had to. A few of us asked for it in writing in the CBA, didnít happen, told the lawyers this would happen.

LCCís aren't the only show in town anymore either. Check the ACMIís.
Several like Atlas, Omni and Kalitta are better than LCCís in my opinion. Atlas is in the middle of getting a new CBA and should make out very well.
Home basing
No ready reserve
No crashpads
Long call from home
Daily pay guarantee
Business class or better on International flights over 3 hours. Omni is currently the industry highest first year pay at $113 ph. First year pay - depending what equipment and program you go into - is $87k to $108k. Upgrade under 3 years. Top step $297 ph
Schedules are typically one long trip or two short ones. Last year average was 14 days away from home per month for pilots. Friends at all three like it. Their time at home is theirs, no junior manning from home. They donít have to plan commutes, or jumpseat, they keep all the air miles and are executive platinum, they keep hotel points too.

No excuse to put up with the BS anymore....

Dilly Dilly

NavyRotorhead
04-24-2018, 06:45 PM
Sources I have is nothing more then a trickle. 2 or 3 per class. Will probably be less in the future as more regionals are offering street captain gigs

There were 12 or 13 last class weren't there? Are there any actually here on the forum?

moon
04-24-2018, 06:50 PM
Here is an additional perspective. If the interpretation is half or 25 each month, which ever is GREATER was correct:

Think about the case where hiring (after a black swan event or some other decision by AA) was 10 per month.

Using this interpretation, Envoy would be required to flow 25 and AA would be forced to accept that number, because it was the greater of half of 10 (flow of 5) or flow of 25. Again, use your head. That makes no sense.

If, on the other hand, it was half or 25 each month, which ever is LESS was correct, Envoy would be required to flow 5. That makes good sense.

Obviously in your scenario they wouldn't send more than AA hires. It makes sense that envoy would want the lesser of the two but that is not what was bargained for. Just what they hope they can get.

Here's some common sense thinking. If the company was so sure it was the lesser why would they have come to the negotiating table during the grievance arbitration. They would just let it play out and the arbitrator would rule in their favor. However they are clearly negotiating with the union. So maybe it's not so cut and dry as to what the ruling would be. Does that make good sense?

Inop2
04-24-2018, 09:11 PM
[;QUOTE=Azorian;2579500]I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math[/QUOTE]

I remember you and your thoughtful questions .....you came up with the right answer. Pilots and employees are at the bottom related to their business decisions which explains in part numorus grievance filings by the union. Even in the CP office....walk in....they are friendly on the surface but distain is in the air. I typed up my resignation letter and dated 2 years from my sign on bonus date. I carry it with me now. Iím convinced Envoy possess an overdose of arrogance and will dismiss me immediately saving me $$$ in bonus repayment.

TransWorld
04-25-2018, 03:46 AM
Obviously in your scenario they wouldn't send more than AA hires. It makes sense that envoy would want the lesser of the two but that is not what was bargained for. Just what they hope they can get.

Here's some common sense thinking. If the company was so sure it was the lesser why would they have come to the negotiating table during the grievance arbitration. They would just let it play out and the arbitrator would rule in their favor. However they are clearly negotiating with the union. So maybe it's not so cut and dry as to what the ruling would be. Does that make good sense?

If the GREATER is the way the agreement states, it would put them in violation by not sending more than AA would be hiring. We both agree that is foolish. Yet the pilots legitimately could go to grievance claiming a violation and be awarded damages. That adds more to the rationale that interpretation is incorrect.

No, your second point does not make good sense. You are implying a cause and effect relationship that is not necessarily there. At the current rate, there is a 8 year flow (assuming no attrition). Once the Protected Pilots finish flowing, it slows to a 14 year flow (again assuming no attrition).

Yet in the next few years it is estimated the overall hiring from the regionals will grow to one fifth of the total pilots a year, the equivalent of a 5 year flow. To stay competitive and have usefulness for recruiting, they need to have something in that range. Pilots would laugh at a 14 year flow.

This would cause Envoy and AA to want to renegotiate the rate for the future. This is a driver in their self interest to want to negotiate with the union.

ag386
04-25-2018, 12:00 PM
If the GREATER is the way the agreement states, it would put them in violation by not sending more than AA would be hiring. We both agree that is foolish. Yet the pilots legitimately could go to grievance claiming a violation and be awarded damages. That adds more to the rationale that interpretation is incorrect.

No, your second point does not make good sense. You are implying a cause and effect relationship that is not necessarily there. At the current rate, there is a 8 year flow (assuming no attrition). Once the Protected Pilots finish flowing, it slows to a 14 year flow (again assuming no attrition).

Yet in the next few years it is estimated the overall hiring from the regionals will grow to one fifth of the total pilots a year, the equivalent of a 5 year flow. To stay competitive and have usefulness for recruiting, they need to have something in that range. Pilots would laugh at a 14 year flow.

This would cause Envoy and AA to want to renegotiate the rate for the future. This is a driver in their self interest to want to negotiate with the union.

You sure are putting a spin on the flow. Bottom line is the company will ALWAYS do the minimum or LESS. As evidenced in the start of the thread, a two month hiatus in the flow is a setback Envoy pilots won't ever get back. Company may promise to catch up but highly unlikely.

You must be new to Envoy. I would have my apps out everywhere and trying everything possible to get out. Flow is a gimmick beyond anyone inside of a year out.

TransWorld
04-25-2018, 12:44 PM
You sure are putting a spin on the flow. Bottom line is the company will ALWAYS do the minimum or LESS. As evidenced in the start of the thread, a two month hiatus in the flow is a setback Envoy pilots won't ever get back. Company may promise to catch up but highly unlikely.

You must be new to Envoy. I would have my apps out everywhere and trying everything possible to get out. Flow is a gimmick beyond anyone inside of a year out.

I understand you are very bitter with Envoy (as you have stated here) and went to work for Alligent a couple of years ago. I trust you are happier there.

I have tried to share factual information and reasonable rationale. You repeatedly disagree with me and say I have rose colored glasses. Thatís okay, we likely will never agree. I have no need to continue to debate you.

Incidentally, I am not new to Envoy.

V12Merlin
04-25-2018, 12:57 PM
Aiming on coming over to help you guys out. WeĒll see how it shakes out.

flysooner9
04-25-2018, 01:03 PM
Aiming on coming over to help you guys out. WeĒll see how it shakes out.

If your looking at DEC check out PDT. Virtually the same deal but no LGA.

V12Merlin
04-25-2018, 01:35 PM
Thank you sir!

ag386
04-25-2018, 01:40 PM
I understand you are very bitter with Envoy (as you have stated here) and went to work for Alligent a couple of years ago. I trust you are happier there.

I have tried to share factual information and reasonable rationale. You repeatedly disagree with me and say I have rose colored glasses. Thatís okay, we likely will never agree. I have no need to continue to debate you.

Incidentally, I am not new to Envoy.

It's OK. Keep on drooling over Envoy and its industry leading work rules, mainline 175s and.....flow. I'm afraid you are going to be disappointed soon.

Bigpimppilot
04-25-2018, 03:19 PM
I understand you are very bitter with Envoy (as you have stated here) and went to work for Alligent a couple of years ago. I trust you are happier there.

I have tried to share factual information and reasonable rationale. You repeatedly disagree with me and say I have rose colored glasses. Thatís okay, we likely will never agree. I have no need to continue to debate you.

Incidentally, I am not new to Envoy.

Just because heís bitter doesnít mean he isnít right

1337pilot
04-25-2018, 06:44 PM
The reason why they can't attract enough "High Value Aviators" is because they think a 45K bonus is enough to get people to come over from a place like EDV, eventhough your actual CA pay is well less than EDV's. If they matched or exceeded EDV's pay (which AA certainly has the money for) as well as offering the bonus, you'd get your captains as well as force Delta to sh1t a brick when they started losing their soon to be captains that have 1000 hours and are just waiting for a vacancy/class date.

rondonq1
04-26-2018, 04:09 AM
I understand you are very bitter with Envoy (as you have stated here) and went to work for Alligent a couple of years ago. I trust you are happier there.

I have tried to share factual information and reasonable rationale. You repeatedly disagree with me and say I have rose colored glasses. Thatís okay, we likely will never agree. I have no need to continue to debate you.

Incidentally, I am not new to Envoy.

If you not new at envoy then as they say you have your head stuck far in the sand. My friend, you buy the recruiter information like it is straight from Bible. Be wise and look inside and at fact instead. You have disease my friend and we here to help you put it behind.

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 04:42 AM
I appreciate all the feedback on my naÔvetť and inexperience. I have neither. My statement of the lesser of half or 25 is still correct. The greater of half or 25, as I have shown here, makes no sense in reality, as much as some people believe. At both very few hires and at peak hiring it results in unacceptable consequences. In mathematical terms it would be said, ďit blows upĒ.

The summary of the contract is confusing. It appears to say greater not lesser of the two. That is not how it has been implemented. From a logical thought process, completely devoid of Envoy salesmanship, lesser makes sense as something realistic to be implemented.

Some people are letting their emotions or desires get the best of them, without thinking this through.

mdot
04-26-2018, 06:19 AM
I appreciate all the feedback on my naÔvetť and inexperience. I have neither. My statement of the lesser of half or 25 is still correct. The greater of half or 25, as I have shown here, makes no sense in reality, as much as some people believe. At both very few hires and at peak hiring it results in unacceptable consequences. In mathematical terms it would be said, ďit blows upĒ.

The summary of the contract is confusing. It appears to say greater not lesser of the two. That is not how it has been implemented. From a logical thought process, completely devoid of Envoy salesmanship, lesser makes sense as something realistic to be implemented.

Some people are letting their emotions or desires get the best of them, without thinking this through.

Or maybe some people refrain from publicly posting opinion adverse to the grievance filed in order to not potentially weaken our position during negotiations and/or a potential future arbitration. People need to quit negotiating in public.

3EngineTaxi
04-26-2018, 09:27 AM
I'm not sure what TransWorld's agenda is or who he works for, but his understanding of the contract is fundamentally flawed. 50 percent is 50 percent.

wiz5422
04-26-2018, 09:47 AM
If we are so short CAs, then why isn't every CA status declared critical coverage for the whole month?

SullyJR
04-26-2018, 11:02 AM
If we are so short CAs, then why isn't every CA status declared critical coverage for the whole month?

My thoughts exactly. DFW 145 hasnít seen critical coverage in many months.

Weekendwarrior2
04-26-2018, 11:02 AM
If we are so short CAs, then why isn't every CA status declared critical coverage for the whole month?

No kidding...fingers crossed its coming soon

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 01:24 PM
I'm not sure what TransWorld's agenda is or who he works for, but his understanding of the contract is fundamentally flawed. 50 percent is 50 percent.

If you are wondering, no I do not work in management for Envoy, AA, nor any airline.

My agenda is to present factual information and get people to think logically. That is all.

If Ď50 percent is 50 percentí, when AA retirements hit peak (in 5 years), half of all their hires are estimated to be 800 pilots. Aside from lifers, that would mean Envoy would lose about 80% of their flowable CA in just one year. Great for those CAs.

Mull it over silently, without posting here. Is it sustainable? What would happen? What are the ramifications for the rest of the pilots that fly for Envoy?

My goal is not to have a debate. My goal is to get people to think things through, looking at the numbers.

havick206
04-26-2018, 01:35 PM
If you are wondering, no I do not work in management for Envoy, AA, nor any airline.

My agenda is to present factual information and get people to think logically. That is all.

If Ď50 percent is 50 percentí, when AA retirements hit peak (in 5 years), half of all their hires are estimated to be 800 pilots. Aside from lifers, that would mean Envoy would lose about 80% of their flowable CA in just one year. Great for those CAs.

Mull it over silently, without posting here. Is it sustainable? What would happen? What are the ramifications for the rest of the pilots that fly for Envoy?

My goal is not to have a debate. My goal is to get people to think things through, looking at the numbers.


Hereís a realistic question, with all the other legacies along with cargo and decent other airlines having the same level of retirements, where do you think these pilots are going to come from?

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 03:00 PM
Here’s a realistic question, with all the other legacies along with cargo and decent other airlines having the same level of retirements, where do you think these pilots are going to come from?

At peak, in about 5 years, I estimate 1 in 5 regional pilots will be hired each year by the majors. 80% of the flow interested CA at Envoy each year would be significantly higher than that average. (Quick math - 20% of all the regional pilots vs. 40% of the Envoy pilots in a year.)

I previously have stated here my crystal ball prediction:

Within 5 to 10 years there will be 1/4 of the regionals still around with 1/2 the total number of regional pilots.

A lot of 50 seaters will be parked, with fewer per day 76 seaters taking their place.

Some of the 76 seaters will be replaced by the 100-120 seaters (CS100 etc) flown by the majors. The majors may even take back some of the 76 seaters flying. Kind of real speculation on that.

Finally, I predict some civilian pilots will be hired directly by the majors, without working for the regionals nor the military, just like they used to in the 1950s-1960s.

When CFI find they can get hired directly at FO Group I (Using AA terminology) pay at the majors and the regionals start paying something close to that, there will be a lot aspiring pilots applying. (Economics 101 says when starting pay like burger flippers at McDonalds transitions to near 100K starting pay; pay commencerate with the professional occupation, lots of people will choose the career.) Pay for a cadet program of some sort may enter the picture for thousand of those aspiring pilots.

Check back in a decade to see the accuracy of my predictions.

I will now put my crystal ball away.

havick206
04-26-2018, 03:44 PM
At peak, in about 5 years, I estimate 1 in 5 regional pilots will be hired each year by the majors. 80% of the flow interested CA at Envoy each year would be significantly higher than that average. (Quick math - 20% of all the regional pilots vs. 40% of the Envoy pilots in a year.)

I previously have stated here my crystal ball prediction:

Within 5 to 10 years there will be 1/4 of the regionals still around with 1/2 the total number of regional pilots.

A lot of 50 seaters will be parked, with fewer per day 76 seaters taking their place.

Some of the 76 seaters will be replaced by the 100-120 seaters (CS100 etc) flown by the majors. The majors may even take back some of the 76 seaters flying. Kind of real speculation on that.

Finally, I predict some civilian pilots will be hired directly by the majors, without working for the regionals nor the military, just like they used to in the 1950s-1960s.

When CFI find they can get hired directly at FO Group I (Using AA terminology) pay at the majors and the regionals start paying something close to that, there will be a lot aspiring pilots applying. (Economics 101 says when starting pay like burger flippers at McDonalds transitions to near 100K starting pay; pay commencerate with the professional occupation, lots of people will choose the career.) Pay for a cadet program of some sort may enter the picture for thousand of those aspiring pilots.

Check back in a decade to see the accuracy of my predictions.

I will now put my crystal ball away.

I think youíre underestimating the suck of all other carriers that will have to pay up as their pilots retire and/or get mwdicalled out or just have had enough.

Regionals will be on life support in about 2-3 years time. The fact that just about every regional is hiring street right now CAís is telling and just the start of the house of cards.

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 04:04 PM
I agree with you, basically what I said. That is why I said the majors will be hiring some amount of 23 year old CFI directly off the street at Group I rates (currently FO starting at $88/hour). The remaining regionals will have to double their current FO rates to something like that to stay in the game.

The number of pilots working for the regional airlines will greatly reduce. Regionals will consolidate or go out of business. (Island Air and Great Lakes are just the tip of the iceberg.) if you want my projection of who survives PM me.

The industry will finally get enough new hires when the pay goes up a large amount. If someone gets that much shortly after college, it will be a starting pay more than the average engineers, scientists, pharmacists, accountants, and lawyers. Only doctors will get paid more. Of course, a pilot’s view out the office window is more impressive, as well. ;)

havick206
04-26-2018, 04:37 PM
I agree with you, basically what I said. That is why I said the majors will be hiring some amount of 23 year old CFI directly off the street at Group I rates (currently FO starting at $88/hour). The remaining regionals will have to double their current FO rates to something like that to stay in the game.

The number of pilots working for the regional airlines will greatly reduce. Regionals will consolidate or go out of business. (Island Air and Great Lakes are just the tip of the iceberg.) if you want my projection of who survives PM me.

The industry will finally get enough new hires when the pay goes up a large amount. If someone gets that much shortly after college, it will be a starting pay more than the average engineers, scientists, pharmacists, accountants, and lawyers. Only doctors will get paid more. Of course, a pilotís view out the office window is more impressive, as well. ;)

Problem is the they wonít be able to train them quick enough.

100 seaters will be the new 50-75 seaters, hopefully with regionals dying. Itís simple numbers, regional managers are only trying to keep costs down right now to keep their jobs. Pretty soon the inevitable will happen and we will be too expensive to justify all the extra infrastructure.

It might take 2-3 years to pan out but itís going to happen. The fact we are bringing ****ty old 140ís out of the desert proves AA is simply being reactive and stalling because theyíre waiting to see how the cookie crumbles which actually makes a modicum of business sense in the short term.

And itís not only pilots, itís license mechanics too.

Bigpimppilot
04-26-2018, 04:45 PM
TransWorlds mistake is looking at the contract with todayís glasses. The language was written YEARS ago. Different world back then. We were going to be shut down within 3 years back then and they needed us to swallow a **** contract with a flow cherry on top. My view TransWorld is you can **** already

ag386
04-26-2018, 05:02 PM
My money is on TransWorld being either:

A. Envoy management
Or
B. Envoy recruiter

TransWorld
04-26-2018, 05:50 PM
My money is on TransWorld being either:

A. Envoy management
Or
B. Envoy recruiter

A. No

B. No

C. No

Bigpimppilot
04-26-2018, 06:17 PM
Could have fooled me. Oh well I was wrong too I guess. He said he isnít one right now. FYI you have management material written all over you. Let this be your come to Jesus moment

Pedro4President
04-26-2018, 06:53 PM
Could have fooled me. Oh well I was wrong too I guess. He said he isnít one right now. FYI you have management material written all over you. Let this be your come to Jesus moment

Come on lay off the guy. Maybe I missed something but I don't think he has said anything close to being management or recruitment like. He may have some greener opinions than I do of the company but I don't think he has been dishonest or overstated the facts like ag38 does.

Every time I hear ag38 say "fact"I chuckle and think to myself "I don't think he knows what that word really means.

HardLemonade
04-26-2018, 08:28 PM
A. No

B. No

C. No

Sounds like the later stages of one my typical dates....

atpcliff
04-27-2018, 02:26 AM
I have read several sources that say the engineer(mechanic) shortage is even worse than the pilot shortage.

BIueSideUp
04-27-2018, 03:55 AM
Sounds like the later stages of one my typical dates....

For the win 🤣

Virga show
04-27-2018, 05:43 AM
Come on lay off the guy. Maybe I missed something but I don't think he has said anything close to being management or recruitment like. He may have some greener opinions than I do of the company but I don't think he has been dishonest or overstated the facts like ag38 does.

Every time I hear ag38 say "fact"I chuckle and think to myself "I don't think he knows what that word really means.

Maybe TransWorld is the line captain that came to Miami crew room to poach Republic Pilots so they can come to Envoy as HVAís. The pieces of paper he was handing out were a load of $h!t. 5-6 year flow for new hires!!!

bigtime209
04-27-2018, 06:01 AM
Maybe TransWorld is the line captain that came to Miami crew room to poach Republic Pilots so they can come to Envoy as HVAís. The pieces of paper he was handing out were a load of $h!t. 5-6 year flow for new hires!!!

Wow...that really happened? Embarrassing.

flyingberk
04-27-2018, 06:35 AM
I've relegated myself to lurker status since i didnt take the Envoy gig and have been staying out of these threads since, but out of curiosity, how many HVAs you guys getting?

i passed up the HVA offer out of the fear that i would be obligating myself to long term Junior Manning in LGA or ORD. Been there, done that, not worth $100,000 bonus let alone $45,000 bonus.

I only butt into the conversation because surely enough HVA folks out there can do that math
Does this mean that you interviewed and spoke to a recruiter? These forums say a DEC will be on reserve in LGA for over a year. Recruitment material says a DEC should expect to hold a line at the end of IOE. I would like to know which is based in fact, or are both an exaggeration

armypilot
04-27-2018, 07:12 AM
I hate sounding ignorant, but what does HVA stand for?

ArmyRWP2018
04-27-2018, 07:16 AM
I hate sounding ignorant, but what does HVA stand for?

High Value Aviator. Already enough 121 hours accumulated to be highered directly as "Street Captain" or "Direct Entry Captain" at a Regional. That is what the $44K bonus is about.

Not for RTP types like me.

BeechPilot33
04-27-2018, 07:37 AM
Does this mean that you interviewed and spoke to a recruiter? These forums say a DEC will be on reserve in LGA for over a year. Recruitment material says a DEC should expect to hold a line at the end of IOE. I would like to know which is based in fact, or are both an exaggeration

Talk to a line pilot in LGA if you can.

yeahbutstill
04-27-2018, 07:49 AM
Recruitment material says a DEC should expect to hold a line at the end of IOE.

Listen man, I got an oceanview property in North dakota for cheap, u interested?

bigtime209
04-27-2018, 08:38 AM
For those that are wondering, in LGA for May the most JR CA holding a hard line is a 7/17 hire. Most JR CA holding a composite line is an 11/17 hire.

havick206
04-27-2018, 08:48 AM
For those that are wondering, in LGA for May the most JR CA holding a hard line is a 7/17 hire. Most JR CA holding a composite line is an 11/17 hire.

Which will change as even more 2016 NHís start coming out if upgrade training

dvtpilot
04-27-2018, 09:28 AM
Which will change as even more 2016 NHís start coming out if upgrade training

Maybe. I think a lot of the 2016 and senior guy being upgraded now can probably hold whatever base they want in the left seat. Maybe dfw would be tough but anything else should be feasible and may not affect LGA as much

FullThrust
04-27-2018, 09:44 AM
Maybe. I think a lot of the 2016 and senior guy being upgraded now can probably hold whatever base they want in the left seat. Maybe dfw would be tough but anything else should be feasible and may not affect LGA as much

I agree. Unless you are a DEC or are incredibly junior as an FO, you will be able to avoid NYC,if desired.

Inop2
04-27-2018, 11:15 AM
I agree. Unless you are a DEC or are incredibly junior as an FO, you will be able to avoid NYC,if desired.

True that.

V12Merlin
04-27-2018, 11:45 AM
Does this mean that you interviewed and spoke to a recruiter? These forums say a DEC will be on reserve in LGA for over a year. Recruitment material says a DEC should expect to hold a line at the end of IOE. I would like to know which is based in fact, or are both an exaggeration

Thats perfect for me--

Got my best eye on a couple nursing home babes over at the kew!:D

DreFlyer
04-27-2018, 12:20 PM
Listen man, I got an oceanview property in North dakota for cheap, u interested?
By "oceanview property" you mean one with a nice view of the oil spill "puddles", right? :D

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 09:49 AM
HVA program not working. Word on the street is cancelled summer vacations and a short term suspension of the flow (June, July)

Word on the street is that we are going to flow 29 each month.

Bruno82
05-12-2018, 06:57 PM
For DECs, when youíve been offered a class date, how far out has the earliest been?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pedro4President
05-13-2018, 05:27 AM
For DECs, when youíve been offered a class date, how far out has the earliest been?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

ASAP. As soon as you get all clear you get a class date.

Bruno82
05-13-2018, 06:51 AM
Thatís odd. The earliest class date that was offered was a little over two months away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SilentLurker
05-13-2018, 07:03 AM
Thatís odd. The earliest class date that was offered was a little over two months away.


That sounds odd. Maybe you wrote or stated a date you could start was two months out? Explainable misunderstanding? Did you call to verify that an earlier class date is not available for you?

You have to be assertive at times or get left in the shadows. Company & industry is thirsty for 121 eligible ďregionalĒ street captains / DECs.

moon
05-13-2018, 07:08 AM
Thatís odd. The earliest class date that was offered was a little over two months away.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It could be that we actually have enough DEC in the works currently. I believe the last class had 13 of them. They may want to spread them out I don't know.

Bruno82
05-13-2018, 07:38 AM
Thank you for the responses. I did ask the person scheduling class dates to keep me in mind if a spot in a class in June comes open.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bruno82
05-19-2018, 07:23 PM
So, I talked to a guy whoís buddy interviewed for DEC a week or so before me. He said the earliest class date offered was in July also. So it seems like itís a little over two months from CJO to class for DEC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Folove
05-20-2018, 12:01 PM
So, I talked to a guy whoís buddy interviewed for DEC a week or so before me. He said the earliest class date offered was in July also. So it seems like itís a little over two months from CJO to class for DEC.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep, I interviewed back in April and was offered June class date. I too asked them to keep me in mind for an earlier class date...

Bruno82
05-24-2018, 05:43 AM
Can anyone tell me how much a CA on the low end of the reserve list in LGA is flying?

YLpilot
05-24-2018, 11:31 AM
Last 5 days on reserve for me. Day 1 proffer for a trip and actually got it!! Day 3 and 4 standby not called. Day 5 called for a miserable and delayed JFK turn. Didn't get back until midnight. Total block for the 5 days approximately 15hrs.