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View Full Version : Considering Air Wisconsin


YerOnGuard
04-24-2018, 01:15 PM
Hey all!

Iím looking pretty heavily into Air Wisconsin. Just trying to get all the information and make the best decision. Currently a Metro pilot for a 135 operator with about 1000 hrs prior experience in a 91K. The earliest I could think about going to class would be November or so.

1- What are the chances of a new hire getting based in ORD?

2- How is the schedule? Pretty commuter friendly? I will be doing a 1 leg commute.

3- How long is the upgrade time?

4- If, for some odd reason, Iíd opt to leave after my first year is complete, how much of the bonuses need to be paid back?

5- How long is the training timeline? I will need to complete the ATP-CTP course.

I apologize if these questions have been answered before. Just trying to decide if this is the right fit for me. Thank you!


T28driver
04-24-2018, 03:41 PM
1- What are the chances of a new hire getting based in ORD?

Good. You will probably do some time in Most junior reserve pilot in ORD was hired in March, which means they were awarded it before starting IOE. Most junior ORD line holder was hired in September of last year.

Most junior MKE line holder was hired in December.

Most junior IAD line holder was hired in May of 2017.

2- How is the schedule? Pretty commuter friendly? I will be doing a 1 leg commute.

Depends on the base and if you are on reserve. MKE schedules will not be commutable on at least one end. Most will not be commutable on either end. You might get lucky and be able to commute home on the last day of reserve, but you will most likely need to be in base the night prior.

3- How long is the upgrade time?

Nobody knows, too many variables. For somebody hired today it could be 16 months to 60 months. I believe itís somewhere between 16-18 months, many others on here will tell you that is a pipe dream.

4- If, for some odd reason, Iíd opt to leave after my first year is complete, how much of the bonuses need to be paid back?

All of it.

5- How long is the training timeline? I will need to complete the ATP-CTP course.

6 weeks for ATP-CTP/Indoc/Systems. 1 week for CPT. 2 weeks of sims. That assumes no sits or hiccups. Itís possible to go from sitting in class to IOE in 2 months, but 3-4 is probably a more realistic scenario. It took me 3.5 months.

CAsFiled
04-24-2018, 04:01 PM
1- What are the chances of a new hire getting based in ORD?

Good. You will probably do some time in Most junior reserve pilot in ORD was hired in March, which means they were awarded it before starting IOE. Most junior ORD line holder was hired in September of last year.

Most junior MKE line holder was hired in December.

Most junior IAD line holder was hired in May of 2017.

2- How is the schedule? Pretty commuter friendly? I will be doing a 1 leg commute.

Depends on the base and if you are on reserve. MKE schedules will not be commutable on at least one end. Most will not be commutable on either end. You might get lucky and be able to commute home on the last day of reserve, but you will most likely need to be in base the night prior.

3- How long is the upgrade time?

Nobody knows, too many variables. For somebody hired today it could be 16 months to 60 months. I believe itís somewhere between 16-18 months, many others on here will tell you that is a pipe dream.

4- If, for some odd reason, Iíd opt to leave after my first year is complete, how much of the bonuses need to be paid back?

All of it.

5- How long is the training timeline? I will need to complete the ATP-CTP course.

6 weeks for ATP-CTP/Indoc/Systems. 1 week for CPT. 2 weeks of sims. That assumes no sits or hiccups. Itís possible to go from sitting in class to IOE in 2 months, but 3-4 is probably a more realistic scenario. It took me 3.5 months.

I'd concur with all of this, especially the likely 3-4 months from start of class to IOE. If you're not sure how long you'll be here, you can always choose to defer your bonuses until they're earned. The larger chunk of bonuses would then be payable in 12 monthly installments starting with month 13. This could keep you in the clear regarding repaying bonuses.


injun21
04-24-2018, 05:37 PM
I'd concur with all of this, especially the likely 3-4 months from start of class to IOE. If you're not sure how long you'll be here, you can always choose to defer your bonuses until they're earned. The larger chunk of bonuses would then be payable in 12 monthly installments starting with month 13. This could keep you in the clear regarding repaying bonuses.


You can set the new hire bonus up so itís paid monthly to you so you donít need to pay any of it back if you leave within the first 24 months AFTER finishing IOE. You earn it each of the 24 months after IOE.

injun21
04-24-2018, 05:41 PM
I'd concur with all of this, especially the likely 3-4 months from start of class to IOE. If you're not sure how long you'll be here, you can always choose to defer your bonuses until they're earned. The larger chunk of bonuses would then be payable in 12 monthly installments starting with month 13. This could keep you in the clear regarding repaying bonuses.

Sorry, CAsFiled is correct. You can still set it up so you donít have to pay any of it back.

Very few people finish after only 9sims and a checkride.

YerOnGuard
04-25-2018, 05:25 AM
Thank you guys for the quick responses!

AV810
05-05-2018, 03:27 AM
[You can set the new hire bonus up so itís paid monthly to you ]

This is probably better for your cash flow. Since taxes are deducted according to a mindless chart, your bonuses will be over-taxed when paid (if you are given a $20,000 check in a given week, the tax chart tells accounting to deduct taxes from it as though you earn $20,000 every week). You'll then get some of that back when you do your taxes at the end of the year (although you'll get back less than you think because they will have been under-deducting on your regular pay all year once the bonus money kicks you up a bracket). By taking the bonuses as they are earned, you'll smooth out the deductions and also eliminate the obligation to work in the future because of money received in the past.

lukeh99
05-05-2018, 06:59 AM
You can set the new hire bonus up so itís paid monthly to you so you donít need to pay any of it back if you leave within the first 24 months AFTER finishing IOE. You earn it each of the 24 months after IOE.

Is this true? When I went through last summer you got 26k after OE and 10k after 1 year with the following rules:

1. Leave before a year and pay it all back (26k).

2. Leave after a full year and your repayment is reduced by 3k per month until you owe nothing at the end of your 2nd year (36k total over 12 months).

There was an option to defer the bonus for a year but that didnít change the repayment terms at all.

Maybe things changed but there is a lot of inconsistency in this forum on this topic and I would hate for someone to come here only to find the terms are not acceptable for whatever reason.

Soxfan1
05-05-2018, 07:30 AM
You can defer the 5k, or the 26/10K, or both. If you do it pays out after you would no longer owe it back if you left. So 5K pays after first year (I think) and itís yours to keep. The 26 plus 10 pays 3K per month from month 13-24. Again you get it as itís ďvestedĒ so each 3K is yours to keep.

Defering, as I see it, has two advantages. Tax savings by spreading bonuses out over two tax years, and leaves the door open to leave before 24 months if you get a better option. Seems like a good option for the military folks that tend to get picked up faster.

T28driver
05-05-2018, 09:42 AM
The $5k bonus is considered ďearned ď after three months, I believe.

BFMthisA10
05-05-2018, 10:25 AM
The $5k bonus is considered ďearned ď after three months, I believe.

IOE complete is the requirement
...3 months ish given pipeline speed

Soxfan1
05-05-2018, 11:07 AM
Thatís right it is re: the 5K. My apologies for the confusion. Itís the 26/10/Type bonus that starts proration months 13-24.

ZenoAir
05-09-2018, 12:13 PM
Anyone thinking of applying to this sinking ship needs their head examined!

YerOnGuard
05-09-2018, 12:34 PM
What makes you say that?

Anyone thinking of applying to this sinking ship needs their head examined!

bradthepilot
05-09-2018, 12:57 PM
Anyone thinking of applying to this sinking ship needs their head examined!

It seems like that is said about most regionals.

One tool that can cut through the emotional aspects and get to a somewhat (but not completely) objective decision is the Pugh Concept Selection or Pugh Matrix model (Wikipedia Description (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decision-matrix_method)

It's essentially a weighted criteria decision support tool, where you supply a list of criteria or objectives, then rank each in terms of importance to you. Perhaps a sign-on bonus is important, but you don't value the CPP much. Or perhaps you don't put a lot of value on healthcare benefits but care much more about not having to commute. All the criteria you can think of and each ranked, then done for each regional you think you are interested in will make the decision much easier and also has the benefit of being completely personalized to your preferences. It may also serve as a reminder for why you didn't choose somewhere else. I did such a thing an AWAC along with SKW came out tops for me; others will of course have a different result.

lukeh99
05-09-2018, 01:08 PM
Anyone thinking of applying to this sinking ship needs their head examined!

A regional with a brand new 5-7 year agreement with United is hardly a sinking ship. What's your rationale?

RAHkid94
05-09-2018, 01:31 PM
A regional with a brand new 5-7 year agreement with United is hardly a sinking ship. What's your rationale?

The constant junior mans, complete inability/unwillingness to do what it takes to staff, cancelling flights for staffing and giving away some of it to SKW and other regionals. The total number of pilots has grown by less than 20 since January.

If the new TA ends up anything less than market rate the staffing problem is only going to get worse. It's hard to recommend this place to someone until a new, good TA is actually signed. If the staffing problem gets solved it's an entirely new ball game.

idlethrust
05-09-2018, 01:32 PM
A regional with a brand new 5-7 year agreement with United is hardly a sinking ship. What's your rationale?

If they donít fix the staffing,equipment and morale issues 5 to 7 years will be 5 to 7 months

AV810
05-09-2018, 10:52 PM
Folks, before you get dragged into ZenoAir's negative comment, notice that he/she joined immediately before posting that comment. This can be a tactic of a competitor to disrupt hiring by an airline they otherwise can't compete with.

bradthepilot
05-10-2018, 03:52 AM
Folks, before you get dragged into ZenoAir's negative comment, notice that he/she joined immediately before posting that comment. This can be a tactic of a competitor to disrupt hiring by an airline they otherwise can't compete with.

I noticed that as well. Kind of interesting to do the "find more posts by..." option after clicking a user's name and seeing what else (if anything) they've written.

RAHkid94
05-10-2018, 04:54 AM
Folks, before you get dragged into ZenoAir's negative comment, notice that he/she joined immediately before posting that comment. This can be a tactic of a competitor to disrupt hiring by an airline they otherwise can't compete with.

The only things ZW leads in is the quality of the crews and health insurance.

It's hard to imagine an airline that can't compete with ZW on QOL when people are regularly working 20+ days a month and getting junior manned all the time. There are people who already have double digit junior mans and the company is trying to give them unavailables for not accepting more.

Pushing crews this hard with forced extensions, junior mans, and reroutes is not normal at non-bottom feeder regionals. Clamining better QOL than Mesa or Commutair is not something worth bragging about.

Day4mx
05-10-2018, 12:10 PM
The only things ZW leads in is the quality of the crews and health insurance.

It's hard to imagine an airline that can't compete with ZW on QOL when people are regularly working 20+ days a month and getting junior manned all the time. There are people who already have double digit junior mans and the company is trying to give them unavailables for not accepting more.

Pushing crews this hard with forced extensions, junior mans, and reroutes is not normal at non-bottom feeder regionals. Clamining better QOL than Mesa or Commutair is not something worth bragging about.

The funniest part is...youre gonna work like a dog with absolutely zero quality of life...and theyre still gonna make you pay ten bucks a month to flica for a schedule that means absolutely nothing. Prepare for 6 on 1 off permanently here. Your schedule means nothing.

ZenoAir
05-11-2018, 11:04 AM
Hi all, I would guess lukeh99 is one of the pilot recruiters, in fact ask him/her what does guaranteed 12 days off really mean? Ask our same recruiter how you will you be guaranteed 12 days off to live your life outside of this place. Currently there is very little quality of life at this place. If $$$$ is your thing while working for a bottom feeder then come join us.

lukeh99
05-11-2018, 11:24 AM
Hi all, I would guess lukeh99 is one of the pilot recruiters, in fact ask him/her what does guaranteed 12 days off really mean? Ask our same recruiter how you will you be guaranteed 12 days off to live your life outside of this place. Currently there is very little quality of life at this place. If $$$$ is your thing while working for a bottom feeder then come join us.

When you get junior manned you get your day restored if you choose. So yes, you get 12 days off every month guaranteed. Iíve been junior manned 6 times this year and I took a day in lieu every time. It actually becomes more like a day and a half. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

T28driver
05-11-2018, 11:38 AM
Iíve been junior manned 4 times and have had the same experience, a day in lieu is very useful when you find yourself with a CDO on the schedule that you donít want to do.

The single worst aspect of working here right now is the uncertainty of when your trip will actually be ďover.Ē That being said, I have found that being an adult about things goes a long way.

I generally check the crew availability website a few days out if I have something I need to be off for. If it looks like Iím probably going to get extended, Iíll submit for PTO during the my off days to ďprotectĒ that time. I also let my chief pilot know early that I wonít be able to accept an extension, and why. So far I have never been given an unavailable for approaching it this way.

I also use common sense. If I donít really have a good reason to avoid an extension, Iíll do it. If I have an early finish on day four and can add a turn or two to max out my FDP, Iíll sometimes do that. I get home later, but I get home.

RAHkid94
05-11-2018, 11:40 AM
When you get junior manned you get your day restored if you choose. So yes, you get 12 days off every month guaranteed. Iíve been junior manned 6 times this year and I took a day in lieu every time. It actually becomes more like a day and a half. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Some of us actually have things to do on specific days. The rest of the world doesn't just reschedule at the drop of the hat.
Plus they can junior man you on your days in lieu.

And that's all assuming they don't weasel out of calling it a junior man.

lukeh99
05-11-2018, 11:51 AM
Iíve been junior manned 4 times and have had the same experience, a day in lieu is very useful when you find yourself with a CDO on the schedule that you donít want to do.

The single worst aspect of working here right now is the uncertainty of when your trip will actually be ďover.Ē That being said, I have found that being an adult about things goes a long way.

I generally check the crew availability website a few days out if I have something I need to be off for. If it looks like Iím probably going to get extended, Iíll submit for PTO during the my off days to ďprotectĒ that time. I also let my chief pilot know early that I wonít be able to accept an extension, and why. So far I have never been given an unavailable for approaching it this way.

I also use common sense. If I donít really have a good reason to avoid an extension, Iíll do it. If I have an early finish on day four and can add a turn or two to max out my FDP, Iíll sometimes do that. I get home later, but I get home.

This is all accurate.

T28driver
05-11-2018, 11:57 AM
Some of us actually have things to do on specific days. The rest of the world doesn't just reschedule at the drop of the hat.
Plus they can junior man you on your days in lieu.

And that's all assuming they don't weasel out of calling it a junior man.

Have you taken the initiative to take a look at the crew availability and actually talk to someone? Honest question. It’s pretty much as simple as “hey, I’m looking at the crew availability for the next few days and it’s ugly. I have a really early finish on Thursday and Friday we’re short a bunch of crews, but I bid to have Friday off because of X. I’m letting you know now that I won’t be able to accept an extension so that you don’t get caught without anyone to cover a flight.”

It’s not an ideal scenario. It’s not how the system is supposed to work. But you can’t put your head in the sand. Adapt and overcome.

And if you feel you are owed a junior man credit that was not provided, let your union scheduling rep know about it. Don’t just complain on APC.

ZenoAir
05-11-2018, 12:03 PM
It's not 12 days of guaranteed....if that was a case I could say NO to the JR man that would drop me below! You know as well as I do They have to get you that day within 30 days. So now we go into the next month. I am probably mistaken....your a mgmt pilot who is not effected by this. You one of BOB's boys?

donkeyjockey
05-11-2018, 12:06 PM
Have you taken the initiative to take a look at the crew availability and actually talk to someone? Honest question. Itís pretty much as simple as ďhey, Iím looking at the crew availability for the next few days and itís ugly. I have a really early finish on Thursday and Friday weíre short a bunch of crews, but I bid to have Friday off because of X. Iím letting you know now that I wonít be able to accept an extension so that you donít get caught without anyone to cover a flight.Ē

Itís not an ideal scenario. Itís not how the system is supposed to work. But you canít put your head in the sand. Adapt and overcome.






Let me ask you this: why is it incumbent upon us to consistently go above and beyond and per the company, "do the right thing." When is the company going to be held responsible for the position we are in.


why in gods name should I check crew availability to see if I am going to get screwed into working on my days off and then request PTO on my days off. guess freaking what my day off is PTO, i don't need to request it. Im going home.


We all get paid to fly planes. thats is. no were in our SOP's does it say to check crew availability or notify the chief pilot ahead of time if you are unable to work on your days off. Thats what bidding on flica is for.

lukeh99
05-11-2018, 12:12 PM
It's not 12 days of guaranteed....if that was a case I could say NO to the JR man that would drop me below! You know as well as I do They have to get you that day within 30 days. So now we go into the next month. I am probably mistaken....your a mgmt pilot who is not effected by this. You one of BOB's boys?

You must choose 5 options within the next 30 days. Typically that means you can get the day restored in the next 2-3 weeks.

Inside DEENA
05-11-2018, 12:22 PM
And don't forget that you will lose the pay for the day-in-lieu you take, unless taking that day brings you back to the min 12 days off.

ID

squib
05-11-2018, 12:45 PM
Junior manning is insane these days. So you get the now unpaid day in lieu back within 2-3 weeks and you lose the premium pay if you ask for it. You can actually lose money in some situations.

Usually only 12 days off to begin with for month X and take a junior man in the the 3rd week. They aren't gonna give you a day off over integration so then you get a day off of their choosing in the next month. You now have only 11 days off in month X. That's only assuming one junior man event in the first place.

JUST SAY NO AND GO HOME

RAHkid94
05-11-2018, 12:54 PM
Have you taken the initiative to take a look at the crew availability and actually talk to someone? Honest question. Itís pretty much as simple as ďhey, Iím looking at the crew availability for the next few days and itís ugly. I have a really early finish on Thursday and Friday weíre short a bunch of crews, but I bid to have Friday off because of X. Iím letting you know now that I wonít be able to accept an extension so that you donít get caught without anyone to cover a flight.Ē

Itís not an ideal scenario. Itís not how the system is supposed to work. But you canít put your head in the sand. Adapt and overcome.

And if you feel you are owed a junior man credit that was not provided, let your union scheduling rep know about it. Donít just complain on APC.

I have actively tried to work with scheduling and suggest trips that I could pick up as a junior man that would work out for both of us, but many times they flat out refuse or still try to junior man/extend me after I've already helped them out. And at the end of the day covering the flying is management's job, not mine. I communicate my preferences through the company by bidding.

I'd feel very differently if the company seemed keen on making the changes it needs to make to get the staffing problem solved. If there was a light at the end of the tunnel it would be bearable. But there's nothing I can really see. We've grown by maybe 20 pilots this year if we're being generous with the numbers.

I don't want to see this place fail but I think it's a disservice to potential new hires to not see how insane things are here right now. If the company showed some good will and tried making things better instead of claiming there isn't a problem I'd be on board 100%.

squib
05-11-2018, 01:00 PM
Why on earth is anyone siding with the company on this garbage?

Probably the same guys on their 16th junior saying "well they said I have to fly it and grieve it."

pitchtrim
05-11-2018, 01:05 PM
I've been conflict bidding integration with good luck. 16 off this month and next month. I think I was junior manned twice this year, once for sure. I take the money and dang if I don't end up with allergies a month or two later and have to call out sick. Occasionally you'll be coming down with an ailment when they try to extend you.

lukeh99
05-11-2018, 01:22 PM
Why on earth is anyone siding with the company on this garbage?

Probably the same guys on their 16th junior saying "well they said I have to fly it and grieve it."

If anyone is legitimately above 10 junior mans and getting a fly now grieve later line from the company they should contact the union ASAP and get a grievance going. That is a blatant contract violation and would be easily fought and won.

AV810
05-11-2018, 02:45 PM
[The only things ZW leads in is the quality of the crews and health insurance.]

I will say this: after following several regional forums, AWI has a greater number of positive or neutral comments about their company than the others I've read. For fun, read some of the Trans States posts, where a pilot describes his company as "a dumpster fire." Or Envoy, where it seems generally accepted that management is vindictive and uncaring. Or Piedmont, where new-hire pilots expect only 260 loggable hours in their first year due to short legs and backed-up training. I'm just saying, there's tough and there's worse.

pitchtrim
05-11-2018, 03:02 PM
The guy taking over 10 junior mans is on the negotiating committe fyi.

T28driver
05-11-2018, 03:21 PM
The guy taking over 10 junior mans is on the negotiating committe fyi.

No, he’s not.

pitchtrim
05-11-2018, 03:25 PM
Must be more than 1 then.

squib
05-12-2018, 08:13 AM
If anyone is legitimately above 10 junior mans and getting a fly now grieve later line from the company they should contact the union ASAP and get a grievance going. That is a blatant contract violation and would be easily fought and won.


Win what? You don't get that time back. I've talked directly with at least 3 people who have been told fly it and grieve it. It's blatantly obvious that you have never actually filed a grievance because it's a 2+ year process.

They act like talking to a manager is a scare tactic. There's guys on the verge of quitting on the phone when talking to them. The pilot group is exhausted and sick of all it.

There's a handful of guys chasing a rainbow that's constantly fading and I guess you're in that group.

ZenoAir
05-12-2018, 08:42 AM
If only CD and BOB came to their senses years ago! We may not be in the current situation we find ourselves. CJT has 400 million plus off our backs! Actually it's only JT holdings...with a east coast banker or 2. If you are seriously thinking of coming to work here ask that recruiter how JT have shown their appreciation for us 8 years without a contract and a failing airline running its employees into the ground on a daily basis.

Day4mx
05-12-2018, 10:55 AM
If fly it and grieve it is happening, its an intentional and flagrant violation of the contract. That needs dealt with immediately. This place is burning to the ground as we speak and as per usual our pathetic senior management is no where to be found. This TA will set the course. Both sides better hope its a miracle but this long delay only makes me think theyre trying to come up with away to sell yet another turd.

StrykerB21
05-12-2018, 11:40 AM
I really hope those that are told to fly it and grieve it simply hang up the phone. We're not gonna make any progress by violating our own CBA.

Elberton
05-20-2018, 10:34 PM
What are the upgrade times if you have prior 121 experience?

Soxfan1
05-21-2018, 02:04 AM
It is still seniority based and the upgrade times are over what it takes a new hire to get 1000 SIC anyway so not a factor.

2 years, 9 months was a recent peak. The next class after that was 2 years, 11 months.

It was as high as 5+ last Sept so itís dropped but seems to be leveling off. If we keep at 8 a month it could hit 24 months. But we have skipped two months in the last 4 so still hard to say if we will hit 24.

Elberton
05-21-2018, 08:36 AM
Ok thanks for that information

ZenoAir
05-21-2018, 01:55 PM
Unless we get a awesome contract with $$$ don't even think about this place. Waiting patiently for BF and his friends at JT holdings to show us the $$$



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