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View Full Version : More on Russ Brown


ATFconsumer20
04-25-2018, 04:29 AM
Union buster Russ Brown (the same lawyer who signed Woelke’s NMB petition) lays out the playbook they are following at Flexjet …

The Grover Norquist Show: Let Me Out: More and More Union Members Move to Decertify Their Unions (http://norquist.radio.washingtontimes.com/let-me-out-more-and-more-union-members-move-to-decertify-their-union)

He says he was “helping to decertify” Allegiant flight attendants at 6:19>

But he was unsuccessful …

https://www.twu.org/allegiant-air-flight-attendants-ratify-historic-first-contract/


Blutarsky
04-25-2018, 05:48 PM
This guy is the reason American, Southwest, UPS and now ALPA are sending out letters letting us know they are watching this. And he is why we will all be looked upon as pariahs if the Union is decertified. Don't think there won't be repercussions. This guy, Russ Brown, is looking to get a foot in the door to kill organized labor in aviation. Flexjet is just their first target.

Macjet
04-25-2018, 09:27 PM
Flexjet is just their first target.

FlexJet is low hanging fruit. They are the most anti-union group of pilots that I've ever meet. They've enjoyed riding the coattails of the NetJets union effort for the last decade. Now let's see if they can stand on their own.


Flyrr
04-25-2018, 10:18 PM
FlexJet is low hanging fruit. They are the most anti-union group of pilots that I've ever meet. They've enjoyed riding the coattails of the NetJets union effort for the last decade. Now let's see if they can stand on their own.

After careful observation my opinion is, Flexjet has a high percentage of selfish or just plain spineless aviators. They have no idea the benefits a Union contract provides.
They would rather beg for crumbs from management while standing on one of their fellow pilots throats!

Blutarsky
04-26-2018, 04:07 AM
Unfortunately, I think you are right. I waited too long getting my resume out. I fear I may be caught in the crossfire. I'm collecting as much proof as I can that I am not a pariah, but how to convey that in an interview?

Jeff Lebowski
04-26-2018, 05:34 AM
Unfortunately, I think you are right. I waited too long getting my resume out. I fear I may be caught in the crossfire. I'm collecting as much proof as I can that I am not a pariah, but how to convey that in an interview?

It likely won't even come up in an interview--at least, not in any direct line of questioning.

Your average panel interview lasts about ten minutes, if that. There's not a lot of time to get into all the byzantine b.s. surrounding the decert drive and the ancient history behind the Flops/Flex merger etc. And if you turn your interview into a rant against Kenn Ricci and his supporting cast of freaks, you might be shooting yourself in the foot. You don't want to come across as bitter. It's the kiss of death.

I could see a question like: "You've been there for X years. Why are you looking to move on now?" That's your opportunity to hint, obliquely, at the fact that the opportunities you'd hoped to see never quite materialized, that you flew with some great people and had some great experiences and will always be grateful, but the time finally came to make the hard decision to move on, for your sake and your family's, etc.

Believe it or not, most people could give .02 about what's happening at Flex/Flops. All they really care about is you.

You might want to invest in some interview prep once you get the call ...

frmrdashtrash
04-26-2018, 06:23 AM
This guy is the reason American, Southwest, UPS and now ALPA are sending out letters letting us know they are watching this. And he is why we will all be looked upon as pariahs if the Union is decertified. Don't think there won't be repercussions. This guy, Russ Brown, is looking to get a foot in the door to kill organized labor in aviation. Flexjet is just their first target.


He's not the only reason we're watching. The entire industry has a direct interest in this.

No decert....

Blutarsky
04-26-2018, 06:54 AM
It likely won't even come up in an interview--at least, not in any direct line of questioning.

Your average panel interview lasts about ten minutes, if that. There's not a lot of time to get into all the byzantine b.s. surrounding the decert drive and the ancient history behind the Flops/Flex merger etc. And if you turn your interview into a rant against Kenn Ricci and his supporting cast of freaks, you might be shooting yourself in the foot. You don't want to come across as bitter. It's the kiss of death.

I could see a question like: "You've been there for X years. Why are you looking to move on now?" That's your opportunity to hint, obliquely, at the fact that the opportunities you'd hoped to see never quite materialized, that you flew with some great people and had some great experiences and will always be grateful, but the time finally came to make the hard decision to move on, for your sake and your family's, etc.

Believe it or not, most people could give .02 about what's happening at Flex/Flops. All they really care about is you.

You might want to invest in some interview prep once you get the call ...

I get there won't be any questions about it. But just having Flexjet as an employer will be a minus. Union leaders and volunteers are well aware of this assault on collective bargaining. I get comments in the terminal when I'm air lining, and my friends are asking me questions about how this could be. So you can't say this isn't on the radar.

rickair7777
04-26-2018, 06:57 AM
Unfortunately, I think you are right. I waited too long getting my resume out. I fear I may be caught in the crossfire. I'm collecting as much proof as I can that I am not a pariah, but how to convey that in an interview?

Won't be an issue. Most of the people doing interviews are not Union Nazis, which is what they'd have to be to hold your previous company's union status against you. They have no way of knowing your personal opinion on the issue unless you were really out in public one way or the other. Being on the scab list might come back to haunt you.

rickair7777
04-26-2018, 07:03 AM
He's not the only reason we're watching. The entire industry has a direct interest in this.

No decert....

Airline industry isn't watching. I only know because I'm a moderator and look at a bunch of stuff on APC. Sounds like Flex needs the union, but there's no risk of ALPA getting decertified at any airline. Well who knows about some dumpster fire regional. But if any of the big boys decertified, it would only be to change to another union... no major is going open shop.

frmrdashtrash
04-26-2018, 07:11 AM
Airline industry isn't watching. I only know because I'm a moderator and look at a bunch of stuff on APC. Sounds like Flex needs the union, but there's no risk of ALPA getting decertified at any airline. Well who knows about some dumpster fire regional. But if any of the big boys decertified, it would only be to change to another union... no major is going open shop.



APA, SWAPA, CAPA all made position statements in support of 1108 as early as last week. ALPA published one yesterday. Yes, this has everyone's attention.

Jeff Lebowski
04-26-2018, 07:48 AM
I get there won't be any questions about it. But just having Flexjet as an employer will be a minus. Union leaders and volunteers are well aware of this assault on collective bargaining. I get comments in the terminal when I'm air lining, and my friends are asking me questions about how this could be. So you can't say this isn't on the radar.

It's definitely on the radar. But at the same time, I wouldn't say it's an automatic knock against you. And the fact that you're at least trying to escape from that asylum shows you're not completely crazy.

The guys who've burned too many bridges will never move on. For the ones who've played it smart, there is still hope.

rickair7777
04-26-2018, 08:40 AM
APA, SWAPA, CAPA all made position statements in support of 1108 as early as last week. ALPA published one yesterday. Yes, this has everyone's attention.

Of course the union HQs are watching. But nobody else in the airline industry knows or cares, and that includes rank and file pilots.

Jeff Lebowski
04-26-2018, 08:45 AM
Of course the union HQs are watching. But nobody else in the airline industry knows or cares, and that includes rank and file pilots.

Agreed. And the only reason I still follow it is because I used to work there.

The great majority of the guys I fly with don't even know what a fractional is.

Blutarsky
04-26-2018, 10:23 AM
Of course the union HQs are watching. But nobody else in the airline industry knows or cares, and that includes rank and file pilots.

Well, there are a few former Flex at Southwest who watch their list for guys. They have friends still at Flex. I know that personally.

NJA04
04-26-2018, 10:47 AM
Of course the union HQs are watching. But nobody else in the airline industry knows or cares, and that includes rank and file pilots.

The unions have the list of Flex/Options non dues payers. Getting hired elsewhere could be more difficult if this goes through.

Jetlife
04-26-2018, 12:57 PM
Of course the union HQs are watching. But nobody else in the airline industry knows or cares, and that includes rank and file pilots.

This is incorrect. This has the close attention of every NJA pilot that has a pulse and the internet. Anyone who keeps up industry affairs knows what is going on. The bubble is bigger than you are making it I assure you.

rickair7777
04-27-2018, 12:14 PM
This is incorrect. This has the close attention of every NJA pilot that has a pulse and the internet. Anyone who keeps up industry affairs knows what is going on. The bubble is bigger than you are making it I assure you.

I said nobody in the AIRLINES knows about it, so no fractional pilot is going to get black listed by association from airline jobs. I know it's a big deal in fractional land.

Although ALPA did include an article in their daily blast email today, so more folks know about it now.

Jetlife
04-27-2018, 12:17 PM
I said nobody in the AIRLINES knows about it, so no fractional pilot is going to get black listed by association from airline jobs. I know it's a big deal in fractional land.

Although ALPA did include an article in their daily blast email today, so more folks know about it now.

Yea and I said you are incorrect. I work for an airline and know about it, and I have never worked for Flexjet. Anyone who remotely stays up on aviation industry affairs, would know about this. Especially anyone in any kind of union position.

If you think for one second that the list won't be made public, and all the anti union names won't be subject to scrutiny and possible black listing from other jobs, you are crazy.

Blutarsky
04-27-2018, 12:41 PM
And pilots are starting to avoid Flexjet. The last class had to be cancelled because no one showed up for it. That came from a guy in the training center.

Flyrr
04-27-2018, 08:26 PM
rickair,
Plenty of pilots have left Flexjet or Flight Options for other carriers and they still have friends that they spent 15 to 20 years with in the cockpit. That also spreads the word. When 90% to 95% of pilots are Unionized there is no reason not to support the Pilot Union at the Company you currently work for! You never now when the person that has your career in their hands knows how you behaved in the past when it mattered!

rickair7777
04-28-2018, 04:13 AM
rickair,
Plenty of pilots have left Flexjet or Flight Options for other carriers and they still have friends that they spent 15 to 20 years with in the cockpit. That also spreads the word. When 90% to 95% of pilots are Unionized there is no reason not to support the Pilot Union at the Company you currently work for! You never now when the person that has your career in their hands knows how you behaved in the past when it mattered!

Fully agree. Just saying there's no general black listing of fractional or regional employees because of the union status of their pilot group, most major airlines pilots are oblivious, and non pilot recruiters don't care at all.

fooled2x
04-28-2018, 05:22 AM
Fully agree. Just saying there's no general black listing of fractional or regional employees because of the union status of their pilot group, most major airlines pilots are oblivious, and non pilot recruiters don't care at all.

You keep repeating this idea of a general blacklist of fractional pilots. First of all, if there was a list, it would include the no voters, not every one. Second, if there was a list, the no votes could claim intimidation to throw out the vote when they lose. So I will make the claim that there is NO blacklist yet.

Jetlife
04-28-2018, 05:49 AM
There is an ALPA list of delinquent members that gets published monthly I believe. Also, if this decert goes though, the list will be made public. I assure you there is a list who willfully don’t pay union dues, and certainly a list of no voters could be made public after as well.

I’m not saying it will black list every pilot indefinitely but it will for sure not help anyone’s chances of leaving Flex/Flops to an airline or to NetJets. You think the union pilots on the hiring board will allow somebody to come over that was involved in throwing out the union? Come on now...

rickair7777
04-28-2018, 12:37 PM
You keep repeating this idea of a general blacklist of fractional pilots. First of all, if there was a list, it would include the no voters, not every one. Second, if there was a list, the no votes could claim intimidation to throw out the vote when they lose. So I will make the claim that there is NO blacklist yet.

Yes that's what I keep saying.

Casa212
04-28-2018, 09:09 PM
Folks there is no voodoo blacklist.
Your vote is confidential, Onesky management ,nor the Union mill know how You vote.
From the horses mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEkj8dzYlqI&feature=youtu.be

Blutarsky
04-29-2018, 08:36 AM
Folks there is no voodoo blacklist.
Your vote is confidential, Onesky management ,nor the Union mill know how You vote.
From the horses mouth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEkj8dzYlqI&feature=youtu.be

No voodoo blacklist, but this came from a friend who left Flexjet about a year ago:

I've been gone from Flex for a year now at an ALPA carrier. I receive the ALPA daily news e-mail every day and yesterday's e-mail contained a headline about the decert effort at Flex. Not only has ALPA, and all the other major unions sent letters of support, ALPA has seen fit to include the news in their daily e-mailer. On top of that, you'd have have to be delusional to think that a union member on the new-hire committee or interview board won't know the history of the decert effort, regardless of how it turns out. The HR folk may not be aware, but the union person will be. I've been told that it's possible that a Felxjetter may not even get an interview when their resume or application is reviewed by the interview board. All it takes is for one member, presumably the union member, of the board to say "no" to either an interview invite or a job offer. The point of this post is to convey the message that actions have consequences. It's just the way it is. Agree with it or not. Here's the article linked to in the ALPA e-mailer. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ots-keep-union

There are consequences for our actions.

Casa212
04-29-2018, 09:54 AM
No voodoo blacklist, but this came from a friend who left Flexjet about a year ago:

I've been gone from Flex for a year now at an ALPA carrier. I receive the ALPA daily news e-mail every day and yesterday's e-mail contained a headline about the decert effort at Flex. Not only has ALPA, and all the other major unions sent letters of support, ALPA has seen fit to include the news in their daily e-mailer. On top of that, you'd have have to be delusional to think that a union member on the new-hire committee or interview board won't know the history of the decert effort, regardless of how it turns out. The HR folk may not be aware, but the union person will be. I've been told that it's possible that a Felxjetter may not even get an interview when their resume or application is reviewed by the interview board. All it takes is for one member, presumably the union member, of the board to say "no" to either an interview invite or a job offer. The point of this post is to convey the message that actions have consequences. It's just the way it is. Agree with it or not. Here's the article linked to in the ALPA e-mailer. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ots-keep-union

There are consequences for our actions.

I can't change what people think or do or have experienced. I'm just posting what the union is saying, and also what the decert group put out, Your vote is confidential.
How the COMPANY got the names of the people who did and didn't sign cards, I don't know, I can only speculate.

FNGFO
04-29-2018, 10:47 AM
I can't change what people think or do or have experienced. I'm just posting what the union is saying, and also what the decert group put out, Your vote is confidential.
How the COMPANY got the names of the people who did and didn't sign cards, I don't know, I can only speculate.

There’s 571 names on the seniority list. That’s your black list. It’s a small enough group that they can just turn every Flexer down. The 121/91k unions are watching, and decert undercuts things they’ve worked decades for. I would suspect that they’ll have long memories for those on the wrong side of history.

rickair7777
04-29-2018, 11:34 AM
On top of that, you'd have have to be delusional to think that a union member on the new-hire committee or interview board won't know the history of the decert effort, regardless of how it turns out. The HR folk may not be aware, but the union person will be. I've been told that it's possible that a Felxjetter may not even get an interview when their resume or application is reviewed by the interview board. All it takes is for one member, presumably the union member, of the board to say "no" to either an interview invite or a job offer. The point of this post is to convey the message that actions have consequences. It's just the way it is. Agree with it or not. Here's the article linked to in the ALPA e-mailer. https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-n...ots-keep-union

There are consequences for our actions.

The procedures vary by airline, and not many have a union rep on the hiring panel... management does NOT want union status to play a role in hiring, as that would promote stronger unions. Hiring is managment's ballgame, unless somebody has it in the CBA that the union gets a vote.

That said, there will almost certainly be pilots, but they might be CP's, who may not have a lot of love for the union. Or it might be a rank-and-file type who could very well inject a union flavor in his decisions.

But there's no precedent in airlines of formally blackballing an entire pilot group because of what 51% did. Individuals may get held accountable for the own actions, although alpa actually sucks at following through on even that.

All that said... decert is a bad idea and a step in the wrong direction. Anyone who goes on public record advocating that might have trouble (if he ever wanted to leave).