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View Full Version : 1st/2nd year practical issues


654G
04-25-2018, 05:54 PM
Hi,

I just got notified that I'm in the pool. I don't have other options right now. I would appreciate some information about the following please.

Currently, how long does it take to hold a line on the A320 in JFK and BOS.

What is the most junior date of hire for an A320 BOS FO.

What are the minimum days off on reserve, and what is the greatest number of block days off you can bid for when on reserve.

What's initial training like, and do you look forward to recurrent training. Is it a 'training' culture, or a 'checking' culture.

Looking at threads from two+ years ago, it seems that morale has sunk quite low since then. Considering that some of the issues now, were present then - cleaning aircraft seats, and reserve rules - is it largely money, or has there been some other culture change that has compounded the money issue.

Thanks


nuball5
04-25-2018, 06:07 PM
Hi,

I just got notified that I'm in the pool. I don't have other options right now. I would appreciate some information about the following please.

Currently, how long does it take to hold a line on the A320 in JFK and BOS.

What is the most junior date of hire for an A320 BOS FO.

What are the minimum days off on reserve, and what is the greatest number of block days off you can bid for when on reserve.

What's initial training like, and do you look forward to recurrent training. Is it a 'training' culture, or a 'checking' culture.

Looking at threads from two+ years ago, it seems that morale has sunk quite low since then. Considering that some of the issues now, were present then - cleaning aircraft seats, and reserve rules - is it largely money, or has there been some other culture change that has compounded the money issue.

Thanks

Think it's under a year to hold a line in JFK and probably a year or a little longer in BOS. Close friend of mine has been at Jetblue for 6 months and was awarded a Relief line in JFK. Mostly red-eyes though, but if you know how to swap around your schedule, then you might avoid some of them.

Min day off on reserve is 12 days...add in a Pre-Release day or maybe two, you can get 13-14 off. Also allowed to drop one day if staffing allows it, so theoretically on the slow months you can get 15 days off on reserve.

Training is about as relaxed as any part 121 AQP program out there. Welcome to the pool...been at JB for about two years and still happy with my decision. I don't commute, so that might have something to do with it.

Taylor0708
04-25-2018, 07:27 PM
Think it's under a year to hold a line in JFK and probably a year or a little longer in BOS. Close friend of mine has been at Jetblue for 6 months and was awarded a Relief line in JFK. Mostly red-eyes though, but if you know how to swap around your schedule, then you might avoid some of them.

Min day off on reserve is 12 days...add in a Pre-Release day or maybe two, you can get 13-14 off. Also allowed to drop one day if staffing allows it, so theoretically on the slow months you can get 15 days off on reserve.

Training is about as relaxed as any part 121 AQP program out there. Welcome to the pool...been at JB for about two years and still happy with my decision. I don't commute, so that might have something to do with it. Thanks for the good info and no bashing!!!! I am heading to class on the 9th.


Rascal
04-25-2018, 09:46 PM
Thanks for the good info and no bashing!!!! I am heading to class on the 9th.

Keep in mind that according to management there will be no contract at least till 2020.

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 03:46 AM
Disregard...

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 03:48 AM
You will also earn 9 hours of PTO per month and can use that to get more days off. If the reserve levels are green you can PTO a day for 4:12.

PotatoChip
04-26-2018, 04:13 AM
What’s training pay and realistic first year numbers?

Tom a Hawk
04-26-2018, 04:22 AM
You will also earn 9 hours of PTO per month and can use that to get more days off. If the reserve levels are green you can PTO a day for 4:12.

Don’t do that unless you have to. Pto is worth far more as an awarded vacation or sell back than straight dropping a day.

To the OP:
18 days on a month for reserve, 75 hr guarantee. You can drop one day unpaid if the grid is green (above min coverage) down to 70:48. After schedules are awarded they go back and look to see if the can pre release everyone for one day ahead of time. They do multiple rounds of this. So in a slow month you could have a couple dropped ahead of time. We do have long call but it’s on a carrot and day by day basis and if you’ve got a 5 day block of reserve you’re assuredly coming up for the last couple. Not sure if they fixed the 6 day on reserve issue(30hours off in a week) but if they did you could theoretically do 6 on 2 off three times and then have the last 8 days of the month off. It’s pbs bidding.

Quickest way to a line historically in the northeast is the 190. Pay is the same first year and virtually no red eyes.

Classes are usually a mix of Bos/Jfk 320/190. Pick the plane you want, you’ll be able to swap between those two bases on the next system bid if one isn’t available to you in class. Big difference in seniority in Boston on the two planes. Jfk is more similar on the FO side.

Hard to answer your culture/morale question as everyone has a different reason why they are angry or happy. Personally the dragging on of the negotiations and the abysmal on time performance has taken away from my quality of life. It’s made me a bit of a grumpy “not my job” guy instead of the positive self starter I see myself as. The ponies here can pull pretty hard, but they’re standing around with no oats because the stagecoach driver is asleep in the back. Yes I’m talking to you, Robin.

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 04:44 AM
Don’t do that unless you have to. Pto is worth far more as an awarded vacation or sell back than straight dropping a day.

This is a very good point that I should have included.

You can sell your PTO back to the company at 150% pay rate. 401k is not matched. Vacation pays 35 hours but only uses 24.5 hours and 401k is matched as well. Plus it counts towards revolve earnings for the 3% retirement advantage. So taking vacation is the best use of PTO. The problem is vacation is not allocated or distributed fairly.

Combatcraig
04-26-2018, 05:10 AM
This is a very good point that I should have included.

You can sell your PTO back to the company at 150% pay rate. 401k is not matched. Vacation pays 35 hours but only uses 24.5 hours and 401k is matched as well. Plus it counts towards revolve earnings for the 3% retirement advantage. So taking vacation is the best use of PTO. The problem is vacation is not allocated or distributed fairly.

All true. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I sat RSV for a year. Only 12 days off is unacceptable and often used the last day so no way of commuting home. Thus, I PTO’d and UTO’d 1 day each month just trying to help my QOL. Long Call was very rare. Last day release was rare. RSV here truly got old fast. Getting a line was life changing. More days off. More flexibility to swap into commutable trips etc...

benzoate
04-26-2018, 05:27 AM
Hi,

I just got notified that I'm in the pool. I don't have other options right now. I would appreciate some information about the following please.

Currently, how long does it take to hold a line on the A320 in JFK and BOS.

What is the most junior date of hire for an A320 BOS FO.

What are the minimum days off on reserve, and what is the greatest number of block days off you can bid for when on reserve.

What's initial training like, and do you look forward to recurrent training. Is it a 'training' culture, or a 'checking' culture.

Looking at threads from two+ years ago, it seems that morale has sunk quite low since then. Considering that some of the issues now, were present then - cleaning aircraft seats, and reserve rules - is it largely money, or has there been some other culture change that has compounded the money issue.

Thanks

With respect to this last question nothing has really changed. The main difference is those pilots who defended the airline years a go have now experienced what Jetblue really is. Management is the same, culture is still just a word, cleaning, reserve and money are still the same.
Jetblue does a wonderful job is selling itself as something better or greater than "the failed models" but once you are on property for a while and you see first hand how this place is run, how undervalued the employees are and how profitable the airline is your own opinion sours and so does moral.

Its just a job, just a job.

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 06:29 AM
All true. But ya gotta do what ya gotta do. I sat RSV for a year. Only 12 days off is unacceptable and often used the last day so no way of commuting home. Thus, I PTO’d and UTO’d 1 day each month just trying to help my QOL. Long Call was very rare. Last day release was rare. RSV here truly got old fast. Getting a line was life changing. More days off. More flexibility to swap into commutable trips etc...

Yup unfortunately I live it. Reserve as a Captain is even worse right now. Get used every day. They run out of reserves on an almost daily basis now and throw out RSA’s. When that’s not enough they start calling everyone on their day off regardless if you’re on the do not call list or not and regardless if it’s 3am.

nuball5
04-26-2018, 07:04 AM
Yup unfortunately I live it. Reserve as a Captain is even worse right now. Get used every day. They run out of reserves on an almost daily basis now and throw out RSA’s. When that’s not enough they start calling everyone on their day off regardless if you’re on the do not call list or not and regardless if it’s 3am.

Totally different experience on the FO side. I just finished RSV for April (by choice)....5 full days of LCR, 1 overnight, 3 days of actual flying and showing up to work. Now if only there was something the company could do to even out the staffing. 🤔

Bluedriver
04-26-2018, 07:04 AM
Yup unfortunately I live it. Reserve as a Captain is even worse right now. Get used every day. They run out of reserves on an almost daily basis now and throw out RSA’s. When that’s not enough they start calling everyone on their day off regardless if you’re on the do not call list or not and regardless if it’s 3am.

Sounds very, um, Humanity. Values!

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 07:34 AM
Totally different experience on the FO side. I just finished RSV for April (by choice)....5 full days of LCR, 1 overnight, 3 days of actual flying and showing up to work. Now if only there was something the company could do to even out the staffing. 🤔

Three upgrades should cover it. SMH.

say again
04-26-2018, 09:13 AM
Totally different experience on the FO side. I just finished RSV for April (by choice)....5 full days of LCR, 1 overnight, 3 days of actual flying and showing up to work. Now if only there was something the company could do to even out the staffing. ��

What base and plane?

nuball5
04-26-2018, 09:34 AM
What base and plane?

Bos-190...

embraerjetpilot
04-26-2018, 09:54 AM
What’s training pay and realistic first year numbers?

A ****ing joke.

BeatNavy
04-26-2018, 10:10 AM
What’s training pay and realistic first year numbers?

$2k a month before medical and everything else. I think I took home like 600-700 a paycheck...if that. I made $45k my first year. Effing embarrassing and insulting. This management should be effing ashamed of themselves and embarrassed to call themselves leaders of a major airline when regionals pay more first two years.

Bozo the pilot
04-26-2018, 12:50 PM
The place sucks right now. You're going to work 3-5 days more a month than at any real airline.
If you have options elsewhere, take them.
Management has completely dropped the ball and is out of touch with the pilot group.
Good luck.

wette460
04-26-2018, 01:06 PM
$2k a month before medical and everything else. I think I took home like 600-700 a paycheck...if that. I made $45k my first year. Effing embarrassing and insulting. This management should be effing ashamed of themselves and embarrassed to call themselves leaders of a major airline when regionals pay more first two years.
Yup unfortunately I live it. Reserve as a Captain is even worse right now. Get used every day. They run out of reserves on an almost daily basis now and throw out RSA’s. When that’s not enough they start calling everyone on their day off regardless if you’re on the do not call list or not and regardless if it’s 3am.

That is terrible! Despite our similar 1st year pay at G4, I hardly got used first year and was around $57K from picking up open time and extra reserve days...and I thought we had it bad. Are they contractually allowed to call you guys on days off? I feel for you guys and hope you get the contract you guys deserve. You guys run a great operation and your pay/work rules should reflect that. Best of luck!

UNDGUY
04-26-2018, 01:09 PM
Are you paid your guarantee while in training? Just doing some simple math here 53x75x12 is 47K and change. How can your pay be that low?

embraerjetpilot
04-26-2018, 01:18 PM
Are you paid your guarantee while in training? Just doing some simple math here 53x75x12 is 47K and change. How can your pay be that low?

No, its 2000 a month... They do provide 28 dollars a day that you can use from an account at the lodge.

My first paycheck was around 800 and the next ones were 500 because of healthcare.

I considered being an uber driver year one. Even with ****ty first year pay, it is really hard to try to make anything extra. Its almost impossible on reserve.

Profit sharing helped a little bit. but now they've almost completely eliminated it. The tax bill encouraged them to send to money to stock buybacks instead of profit sharing.

UNDGUY
04-26-2018, 01:39 PM
Ouch. Thats rough. I thought it was pretty standard even in the regionals to pay your guarantee while you are training. I know Endeavor does.

Bozo the pilot
04-26-2018, 01:54 PM
Ouch. Thats rough. I thought it was pretty standard even in the regionals to pay your guarantee while you are training. I know Endeavor does.

Please refer to the Jetblue sucks thread. This is the least of the shortcomings at B6.
FUPM B6:)

Blue Dude
04-26-2018, 02:23 PM
Training pay was $2500 more than 15 years ago, and it was adequate (not generous) then. It never increased for inflation or cost of living, and is the equivalent of $3700 today. New hires were also provided with lodging at a decent extended stay hotel and a rental car. After moving to Orlando the rental car went away but there was frequent van service and lots of food options within walking distance. When they began keeping new hires at the Lodge by the training center, they *cut* new hire pay but gave them a daily non-accumulating allowance for food at the Lodge. This was promoted as an effective increase but only served to keep the new hire captive for weeks at a time in the Bluthisphere. It's just a small indicator of what the powers that be really think of you. They actually monetized inadequate new hire pay for their new facility. Think about that.

UNDGUY
04-26-2018, 02:37 PM
Please refer to the Jetblue sucks thread. This is the least of the shortcomings at B6.
FUPM B6:)

Well honestly I have been in the industry since 2007 and I've heard pilots from just about every airline that exists (except Delta, they are perfect in every way) *****, complain, and tell me how much their airline sucks. So I've come to the conclusion that pilots just love to complain and lose perspective as they climb the ranks. I know you are at Jet Blue and you compare yourself to Delta, United, American etc. Which makes it seem like it sucks at Jet Blue. If you compare your situation to that of literally any regional, you are way better off and are very lucky to be where you are at. It's all in how you look at it.

CaptCoolHand
04-26-2018, 03:18 PM
Hurray!! 🤗

Flying for 20yrs and I’m at the best regional airline!

&@$#ing shoot me.

UNDGUY
04-26-2018, 03:43 PM
Hurray!! 🤗

Flying for 20yrs and I’m at the best regional airline!

&@$#ing shoot me.

You'll jump Spirit and probably match Alaska when you get your new contract and then you will be at the top of the second tier. Not a bad place to be. I'd take it. I'll have my app in soon. lol

BeatNavy
04-26-2018, 04:30 PM
You'll jump Spirit and probably match Alaska when you get your new contract and then you will be at the top of the second tier. Not a bad place to be. I'd take it. I'll have my app in soon. lol

Huh? Second tier? Match Alaska? Eff that. That’s a no vote. We have more profit per seat than any other major airline, a biz/first class product that exceeds others, more legroom than legacies in coach and coach+, Europe ambitions, and aren’t exactly a LCC. Also, with slower growth than other airlines and a younger pilot group, we should be exceeding other airlines in every facet of the contract to remain competitive. Our peer set is DL, AA, UA, SWA, and ALK. Take their 2018, 2019, and 2020 airbus/73 rates, figure out the “market rate” of those (including the annual raises). That is what the JB rate needs to be. If not, gonna have to be the best contract in the history of major US airlines in every other facet for me to entertain it, and even then it’ll prob be a big no if it isn’t a market rate. FUPM. I hope if you ever get on property here you don’t have the same “happy to be here” mentality you’ve displayed in your last few posts...people like that cost me and my family money and QOL.

PotatoChip
04-26-2018, 04:35 PM
Huh? Second tier? Match Alaska? Eff that. That’s a no vote. We have more profit per seat than any other major airline, a biz/first class product that exceeds others, more legroom than legacies in coach and coach+, Europe ambitions, and aren’t exactly a LCC. Also, with slower growth than other airlines and a younger pilot group, we should be exceeding other airlines in every facet of the contract to remain competitive. Our peer set is DL, AA, UA, SWA, and ALK. Take their 2018, 2019, and 2020 airbus/73 rates, figure out the “market rate” of those (including the annual raises). That is what the JB rate needs to be. If not, gonna have to be the best contract in the history of major US airlines in every other facet for me to entertain it, and even then it’ll prob be a big no if it isn’t a market rate. FUPM. I hope if you ever get on property here you don’t have the same “happy to be here” mentality you’ve displayed in your last few posts...people like that cost me and my family money and QOL.

^^^How I feel, and I don’t work there.

rvr1800
04-26-2018, 04:54 PM
That is terrible! Despite our similar 1st year pay at G4, I hardly got used first year and was around $57K from picking up open time and extra reserve days...and I thought we had it bad. Are they contractually allowed to call you guys on days off? I feel for you guys and hope you get the contract you guys deserve. You guys run a great operation and your pay/work rules should reflect that. Best of luck!

What’s a contract?

pilotpayne
04-26-2018, 05:19 PM
Well honestly I have been in the industry since 2007 and I've heard pilots from just about every airline that exists (except Delta, they are perfect in every way) *****, complain, and tell me how much their airline sucks. So I've come to the conclusion that pilots just love to complain and lose perspective as they climb the ranks. I know you are at Jet Blue and you compare yourself to Delta, United, American etc. Which makes it seem like it sucks at Jet Blue. If you compare your situation to that of literally any regional, you are way better off and are very lucky to be where you are at. It's all in how you look at it.


Yikes man. I don’t even know what to say. I think you might want to do some reflecting and revisit this.

Speedbird2263
04-26-2018, 05:20 PM
Well honestly I have been in the industry since 2007 and I've heard pilots from just about every airline that exists (except Delta, they are perfect in every way) *****, complain, and tell me how much their airline sucks. So I've come to the conclusion that pilots just love to complain and lose perspective as they climb the ranks. I know you are at Jet Blue and you compare yourself to Delta, United, American etc. Which makes it seem like it sucks at Jet Blue. If you compare your situation to that of literally any regional, you are way better off and are very lucky to be where you are at. It's all in how you look at it.

You’re killing me smalls. :(

Bozo the pilot
04-26-2018, 05:56 PM
Well honestly I have been in the industry since 2007 and I've heard pilots from just about every airline that exists (except Delta, they are perfect in every way) *****, complain, and tell me how much their airline sucks. So I've come to the conclusion that pilots just love to complain and lose perspective as they climb the ranks. I know you are at Jet Blue and you compare yourself to Delta, United, American etc. Which makes it seem like it sucks at Jet Blue. If you compare your situation to that of literally any regional, you are way better off and are very lucky to be where you are at. It's all in how you look at it.

You are obviously oblivious to the company- Why are you posting? You a Blue wannabee? You have zero clue and the way you speak, I suspect you're still in college. Spend a few years in the real world and then opine with some experience. Until then, good luck with finals skippy.;)

PotatoChip
04-26-2018, 06:08 PM
Well honestly I have been in the industry since 2007 and I've heard pilots from just about every airline that exists (except Delta, they are perfect in every way) *****, complain, and tell me how much their airline sucks. So I've come to the conclusion that pilots just love to complain and lose perspective as they climb the ranks. I know you are at Jet Blue and you compare yourself to Delta, United, American etc. Which makes it seem like it sucks at Jet Blue. If you compare your situation to that of literally any regional, you are way better off and are very lucky to be where you are at. It's all in how you look at it.

I know several pilots who chose to remain at their regional rather than accept a CJO at JB, and many more who refuse to apply...

In my opinion, you’re wrong.

JetBlue has tremendous potential, but right now that is all it is, especially for those considering it. These first year pays are absolutely deplorable for a major airline pilot.

Bluedriver
04-26-2018, 06:13 PM
Hurray!! 🤗

Flying for 20yrs and I’m at the best regional airline!

&@$#ing shoot me.

No feces! Wow.

Blue Dude
04-26-2018, 08:43 PM
Huh? Second tier? Match Alaska? Eff that. That’s a no vote. ... I hope if you ever get on property here you don’t have the same “happy to be here” mentality you’ve displayed in your last few posts...people like that cost me and my family money and QOL.

This right here. I'm not going to skip along my merry way just because we're better than Mesa. GMAFB.

benzoate
04-27-2018, 03:47 AM
What’s a contract?

That’s funny and ironic considering Priest slipped by saying no contract in the 2018-2020 time frame.

Cloud5urfer
04-27-2018, 11:17 AM
That’s funny and ironic considering Priest slipped by saying no contract in the 2018-2020 time frame.

That's a bold statement he really said that to you directly?

CaptCoolHand
04-27-2018, 12:47 PM
You'll jump Spirit and probably match Alaska when you get your new contract and then you will be at the top of the second tier. Not a bad place to be. I'd take it. I'll have my app in soon. lol


So is that like the dumbest smart kid? Or like the smartest retarded kid?

I get it here is better than your regional, but please don’t start with the how awesome it’s gonna be. If jetblue was so awesome we wouldn’t have needed ALPA.

Just stop. No one here wants to hear it.

654G
04-27-2018, 06:19 PM
Thanks to the person who posted the W2 (and has, understandably, since removed it).
That, more than any other comment I've read on threads from unhappy people, spoke volumes. Unemotional, brutally factual

Bozo the pilot
04-27-2018, 06:23 PM
Thanks to the person who posted the W2 (and has, understandably, since removed it).
That, more than any other comment I've read on threads from unhappy people, spoke volumes. Unemotional, brutally factual
Yea but the unhappy stuff worked too right:D
Good luck to you man.

Corppilot36
04-27-2018, 08:22 PM
Thanks to the person who posted the W2 (and has, understandably, since removed it).
That, more than any other comment I've read on threads from unhappy people, spoke volumes. Unemotional, brutally factual

I was very excited with the opportunity to go to B6, but after seeing that W2 form... I'll take my chances making over 6 fig. at my regional and wait for a legacy to call.

Bozo the pilot
04-27-2018, 08:47 PM
I was very excited with the opportunity to go to B6, but after seeing that W2 form... I'll take my chances making over 6 fig. at my regional and wait for a legacy to call.

Youre much smarter than I was.

Gearswinger
04-28-2018, 02:44 AM
I saw the W2 before it was pulled and it was within $1000 of mine. I made nearly as much during my 2.5mo in the left seat at my regional in 2017 as I did in the remaining year at Blue.

pugpilot
04-28-2018, 07:49 AM
I saw the W2 before it was pulled and it was within $1000 of mine. I made nearly as much during my 2.5mo in the left seat at my regional in 2017 as I did in the remaining year at Blue.

Multiple people had warned me that the company could figure out my identity if they wanted to and possible retaliation could occur.

The faith that I have in our management is so poor that I asked the admin to take it down.

The fact that I have to worry about action being taken against me by management for being honest about the job is almost as bad as the numbers that were on my W2.

JetBlue is a stay away airline right now.
See everyone May 17th!

atrdriver
04-28-2018, 10:09 AM
Multiple people had warned me that the company could figure out my identity if they wanted to and possible retaliation could occur.

The faith that I have in our management is so poor that I asked the admin to take it down.

The fact that I have to worry about action being taken against me by management for being honest about the job is almost as bad as the numbers that were on my W2.

JetBlue is a stay away airline right now.
See everyone May 17th!

Couldn't have said it better myself. See you there.

CaptCoolHand
04-29-2018, 04:44 AM
Multiple people had warned me that the company could figure out my identity if they wanted to and possible retaliation could occur.

The faith that I have in our management is so poor that I asked the admin to take it down.

The fact that I have to worry about action being taken against me by management for being honest about the job is almost as bad as the numbers that were on my W2.

JetBlue is a stay away airline right now.
See everyone May 17th!

Yup. Just like safety first. Write everything up... but only if it’s really really broken.

...and only if you want to see the CPO go over every write up you’ve ever had if you write up something somewhere that’s inconvieneint.

hilltopflyer
04-29-2018, 05:09 AM
buddy was telling me last night they had a 35 min turn with plane swap on a ron (had to shutdown and do a walk around) so needed up being late. A tech ops manager was standing up in the window watching till they pulled away because they wrote something up. He said it looked like they were trying to catch him doing something wrong.

rvr1800
04-29-2018, 05:36 AM
buddy was telling me last night they had a 35 min turn with plane swap on a ron (had to shutdown and do a walk around) so needed up being late. A tech ops manager was standing up in the window watching till they pulled away because they wrote something up. He said it looked like they were trying to catch him doing something wrong.

Fly safe fly sop. As long as you follow those simple rules you cannot get in any trouble.

hilltopflyer
04-29-2018, 06:01 AM
Fly safe fly sop. As long as you follow those simple rules you cannot get in any trouble.

That's what I was telling him. He just said he and fo sensed something different.

UNDGUY
04-29-2018, 07:23 AM
So is that like the dumbest smart kid? Or like the smartest retarded kid?

I get it here is better than your regional, but please don’t start with the how awesome it’s gonna be. If jetblue was so awesome we wouldn’t have needed ALPA.

Just stop. No one here wants to hear it.

I get it. It's a sensitive topic right now and not really my business to comment on. I wish you all the best and hope you get everything you deserve with this new contract. We should all be trying to get as much as we can whenever we have the opportunity. Cheers

MikeC5
04-29-2018, 02:10 PM
How long is the interview process taking these days? Is it still a 6-8 month marathon waiting on Phase 2 and then sitting in the pool? I'm kind of hoping so. I have an interview and quite frankly I'd like a contract in place before I got a class date. No contract and I probably won't take a job if offered.

embraerjetpilot
04-29-2018, 02:15 PM
How long is the interview process taking these days? Is it still a 6-8 month marathon waiting on Phase 2 and then sitting in the pool? I'm kind of hoping so. I have an interview and quite frankly I'd like a contract in place before I got a class date. No contract and I probably won't take a job if offered.


Wise strategy.

Even with a contract though, things are pretty stagnant here.

hyperboy
04-29-2018, 02:25 PM
Wise strategy.

Even with a contract though, things are pretty stagnant here.

5-7% growth is not stagnant. Watching operations may be stagnant.

BeatNavy
04-29-2018, 03:07 PM
5-7% growth is not stagnant. Watching operations may be stagnant.

We don't have 5-7% seniority list growth. We have 5-7% ASM growth because we are adding seats to our A320s and taking delivery of 10-13 planes a year. The proper number to look at is our delivery schedule. The hiring numbers recently posted show a goal of 265 this year, less attrition, which will result in rough 150-200 added to a 3600 deep seniority list. Thats between 4-5% growth.

The best way to look at our growth is to multiply our deliveries by 14, the number at which we staff our airline. 10 deliveries this year, 13 next, and 13 the next. If we give back any of our E190s when the leases expire, that could negate any Airbus delivery seniority list growth.

By my napkin math, we have 93 airplanes remaining to be delivered by 2024. By that time, some of our oldest A320s will be long in the tooth, and probably ready for retirement/replacement/lease return/etc., so there's a very good possibility that we won't have a net gain of 93 airplanes. I also highly doubt by 2024 that the 60 E190s currently on property will still be on property. Whether or not they are replaced at a 1:1 ratio with E195E2/CS100/CS300s is to be seen.

The fleet review will be very telling of the future of this airline. Without growth, this place is going to be a terrible place to hang your hat for anyone hired in the last year or two, and certainly going forward.

Worst case I can think of is the E190s go away, or at least the 30 leases that will be up in the next few years, some old leased A320s get returned, and we stay around 3,500-4,000 pilots, with little attrition over the next decade. Best case: we get a contract that requires more staffing per plane, we keep 60 100-130 seat airplanes, keep all our airbuses, and the 93 airbuses to be delivered all make it here on time. That would put us at 5,000-5,500 pilots by 2024.

So could be 5-10% growth over the next 7 years, or 30-40% growth. Do you gamble with legacy retirements (minus age 67 stalling that for a couple years) with good contracts, or gamble with labor-hating, no contract jetblue with possible growth? Tough call. Hope it works out for us.

PasserOGas
04-29-2018, 04:54 PM
5-7% growth is not stagnant. Watching operations may be stagnant.

Sigh. Please stop HB. It is around 3% airframe growth and slowing. We are growing SEATS because we are buying 321 and upgauging our current fleet, not bringing 7% more planes and pilots.

Bottom line, 12 years until you are 50% of the list here. That is IF we dont defer more planes, like we have the past 2 years...

symbian simian
04-29-2018, 05:22 PM
Just for reference:
AA will retire 8000 of 14500 in the next 10 years. With no growth (and they are planning a bit of growth over the next decade) worst case you will be at 55%.
Compare that to 5% growth and not many retirements over at JB and best case based on current fleet plan, you will be at 60%.

PotatoChip
04-29-2018, 05:39 PM
Just for reference:
AA will retire 8000 of 14500 in the next 10 years. With no growth (and they are planning a bit of growth over the next decade) worst case you will be at 55%.
Compare that to 5% growth and not many retirements over at JB and best case based on current fleet plan, you will be at 60%.

Yeah, and only 9% of new hires are off-the-street civilians. Not exactly an easy nut to crack.

jtrain609
04-29-2018, 06:18 PM
Yeah, and only 9% of new hires are off-the-street civilians. Not exactly an easy nut to crack.

Hey didn't you know? Delta and American call anyone who applies. Pilots at JetBlue were just too stupid to submit their applications.

pilotpayne
04-29-2018, 06:20 PM
How long is the interview process taking these days? Is it still a 6-8 month marathon waiting on Phase 2 and then sitting in the pool? I'm kind of hoping so. I have an interview and quite frankly I'd like a contract in place before I got a class date. No contract and I probably won't take a job if offered.



Just make sure you tell them that.

pilotpayne
04-29-2018, 06:25 PM
We don't have 5-7% seniority list growth. We have 5-7% ASM growth because we are adding seats to our A320s and taking delivery of 10-13 planes a year. The proper number to look at is our delivery schedule. The hiring numbers recently posted show a goal of 265 this year, less attrition, which will result in rough 150-200 added to a 3600 deep seniority list. Thats between 4-5% growth.

The best way to look at our growth is to multiply our deliveries by 14, the number at which we staff our airline. 10 deliveries this year, 13 next, and 13 the next. If we give back any of our E190s when the leases expire, that could negate any Airbus delivery seniority list growth.

By my napkin math, we have 93 airplanes remaining to be delivered by 2024. By that time, some of our oldest A320s will be long in the tooth, and probably ready for retirement/replacement/lease return/etc., so there's a very good possibility that we won't have a net gain of 93 airplanes. I also highly doubt by 2024 that the 60 E190s currently on property will still be on property. Whether or not they are replaced at a 1:1 ratio with E195E2/CS100/CS300s is to be seen.

The fleet review will be very telling of the future of this airline. Without growth, this place is going to be a terrible place to hang your hat for anyone hired in the last year or two, and certainly going forward.

Worst case I can think of is the E190s go away, or at least the 30 leases that will be up in the next few years, some old leased A320s get returned, and we stay around 3,500-4,000 pilots, with little attrition over the next decade. Best case: we get a contract that requires more staffing per plane, we keep 60 100-130 seat airplanes, keep all our airbuses, and the 93 airbuses to be delivered all make it here on time. That would put us at 5,000-5,500 pilots by 2024.

So could be 5-10% growth over the next 7 years, or 30-40% growth. Do you gamble with legacy retirements (minus age 67 stalling that for a couple years) with good contracts, or gamble with labor-hating, no contract jetblue with possible growth? Tough call. Hope it works out for us.


I would say the biggest “add” to the pilot numbers would be a contract. (If we get one) The current work rules and vacation allocation allow them to get by with way less pilots than we would need if we went to industry standard. After that yeah it’s getting more planes.

TransWorld
04-29-2018, 08:34 PM
Yeah, and only 9% of new hires are off-the-street civilians. Not exactly an easy nut to crack.

True last year for AA. Here is the big question to munch on (no pun intended, PotatoChip):

As hiring increases (likely double or triple the 2017 numbers) when AA hits their sustained peak in a few years, where will the hires come from?

1. Major increase in number of Flows from AA’s 3 WOs? Already the WOs are having difficulty upgrading FO to CA fast enough to meet current flows.

2. Major increase in Military fliers just being discharged? This assumes lots of Military fliers currently want to get hired but just cannot find a pilot position, so they just give up and get into some other job.

3.Major increase in OTS Civilian hires. If the first two do not see sufficient increases to cover the additional hire requirements, the 9% OTS Civilian will increase to a bigger percentage than just 9%.

hyperboy
04-30-2018, 06:01 AM
Sigh. Please stop HB. It is around 3% airframe growth and slowing. We are growing SEATS because we are buying 321 and upgauging our current fleet, not bringing 7% more planes and pilots.

Bottom line, 12 years until you are 50% of the list here. That is IF we dont defer more planes, like we have the past 2 years...

All I said was that 5-7 % was not stagnant, around 250 pilots a year is not stagnant. Thats all I am saying. Might not be crazy growth but has been fairly consistent for around 8 years.

atrdriver
04-30-2018, 06:10 AM
All I said was that 5-7 % was not stagnant, around 250 pilots a year is not stagnant. Thats all I am saying. Might not be crazy growth but has been fairly consistent for around 8 years.

"All you said" was spewing overly rosy #keepsgettingbetter numbers that are inaccurate and misleading to people who aren't already here to know better than to believe your cheerleading posts.

Fact is... JB is stagnant. Yeah, there's a little movement. A handful of upgrades every quarter for those who wish to sit reserve for the foreseeable future. Most of your seniority progress will happen in the first 2 years when people above you figure out they made a mistake by coming to JB and leave.

Bozo the pilot
04-30-2018, 06:14 AM
"All you said" was spewing overly rosy #keepsgettingbetter numbers that are inaccurate and misleading to people who aren't already here to know better than to believe your cheerleading posts.

Fact is... JB is stagnant. Yeah, there's a little movement. A handful of upgrades every quarter for those who wish to sit reserve for the foreseeable future. Most of your seniority progress will happen in the first 2 years when people above you figure out they made a mistake by coming to JB and leave.

This is the accurate "growth" synopsis. Oh and have we mentioned that the current pay/work rules/insurance etc..... SUCKS!?
Management has dropped the ball in regards to this pilot group.
SOP FUPM

jtrain609
04-30-2018, 06:29 AM
"All you said" was spewing overly rosy #keepsgettingbetter numbers that are inaccurate and misleading to people who aren't already here to know better than to believe your cheerleading posts.

Fact is... JB is stagnant. Yeah, there's a little movement. A handful of upgrades every quarter for those who wish to sit reserve for the foreseeable future. Most of your seniority progress will happen in the first 2 years when people above you figure out they made a mistake by coming to JB and leave.

So what makes you such a terrible candidate at real airlines that has forced you to be stuck here?

hyperboy
04-30-2018, 06:33 AM
"All you said" was spewing overly rosy #keepsgettingbetter numbers that are inaccurate and misleading to people who aren't already here to know better than to believe your cheerleading posts.

Fact is... JB is stagnant. Yeah, there's a little movement. A handful of upgrades every quarter for those who wish to sit reserve for the foreseeable future. Most of your seniority progress will happen in the first 2 years when people above you figure out they made a mistake by coming to JB and leave.

Stagnant means NO movement. When you got here the movement was the same as it is now (5-7%) 250 pilots a year. You still came here right. So who is spewing lies. Also attrition is very low. That is a fact. Yet you say I am inaccurate. I am actually just telling the truth. Like it or not.

jtrain609
04-30-2018, 06:37 AM
Stagnant means NO movement. When you got here the movement was the same as it is now (5-7%) 250 pilots a year. You still came here right. So who is spewing lies. Also attrition is very low. That is a fact. Yet you say I am inaccurate. I am actually just telling the truth. Like it or not.

"You're wasting your talent, Randy."

atrdriver
04-30-2018, 06:48 AM
So what makes you such a terrible candidate at real airlines that has forced you to be stuck here?

Who said I was stuck? The 17th will be my last picket in a Stan Herman uniform. I wouldn't be leaving if things were as rosy here as you and the other JB cheerleader (HB) would say.

hilltopflyer
04-30-2018, 06:51 AM
Who said I was stuck? The 17th will be my last picket in a Stan Herman uniform. I wouldn't be leaving if things were as rosy here as you and the other JB cheerleader (HB) would say.

Nice. Where are you going?

Bozo the pilot
04-30-2018, 07:39 AM
So what makes you such a terrible candidate at real airlines that has forced you to be stuck here?

You lovin life here Jtrain?
Tryin to leave?
Oh wait..are you a juicer?

CaptCoolHand
04-30-2018, 08:04 AM
Who said I was stuck? The 17th will be my last picket in a Stan Herman uniform. I wouldn't be leaving if things were as rosy here as you and the other JB cheerleader (HB) would say.

Congrats man!

Bozo the pilot
04-30-2018, 08:08 AM
Who said I was stuck? The 17th will be my last picket in a Stan Herman uniform. I wouldn't be leaving if things were as rosy here as you and the other JB cheerleader (HB) would say.

Ill miss ya- congrats man. :)

pugpilot
04-30-2018, 08:24 AM
Stagnant means NO movement. When you got here the movement was the same as it is now (5-7%) 250 pilots a year. You still came here right. So who is spewing lies. Also attrition is very low. That is a fact. Yet you say I am inaccurate. I am actually just telling the truth. Like it or not.

Hyper: "durrr, I enjoy being pedantic"

https://preview.ibb.co/eAh9Jc/Screen_Shot_2018_04_30_at_12_21_10_PM.png (https://ibb.co/cUPdBx)

#keepsgettingbetter

See you on the 17th!

blueballs
04-30-2018, 08:31 AM
Hyper: "durrr, I enjoy being pedantic"

https://preview.ibb.co/eAh9Jc/Screen_Shot_2018_04_30_at_12_21_10_PM.png (https://ibb.co/cUPdBx)

#keepsgettingbetter

See you on the 17th!
You can’t post this or he will send you a private message asking you to call him. When you do I imagine he will find out who you are and report you to his overlords in the crystal palace.

RiddleEagle18
04-30-2018, 08:35 AM
Hyperboy keep throwing out that 5-7% number even though beatnavy laid out a detailed post on why that’s not true.

If you say it enough you might convince yourself it’s real.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
04-30-2018, 08:55 AM
We don't have 5-7% seniority list growth. We have 5-7% ASM growth because we are adding seats to our A320s and taking delivery of 10-13 planes a year. The proper number to look at is our delivery schedule. The hiring numbers recently posted show a goal of 265 this year, less attrition, which will result in rough 150-200 added to a 3600 deep seniority list. Thats between 4-5% growth.

The best way to look at our growth is to multiply our deliveries by 14, the number at which we staff our airline. 10 deliveries this year, 13 next, and 13 the next. If we give back any of our E190s when the leases expire, that could negate any Airbus delivery seniority list growth.

By my napkin math, we have 93 airplanes remaining to be delivered by 2024. By that time, some of our oldest A320s will be long in the tooth, and probably ready for retirement/replacement/lease return/etc., so there's a very good possibility that we won't have a net gain of 93 airplanes. I also highly doubt by 2024 that the 60 E190s currently on property will still be on property. Whether or not they are replaced at a 1:1 ratio with E195E2/CS100/CS300s is to be seen.

The fleet review will be very telling of the future of this airline. Without growth, this place is going to be a terrible place to hang your hat for anyone hired in the last year or two, and certainly going forward.

Worst case I can think of is the E190s go away, or at least the 30 leases that will be up in the next few years, some old leased A320s get returned, and we stay around 3,500-4,000 pilots, with little attrition over the next decade. Best case: we get a contract that requires more staffing per plane, we keep 60 100-130 seat airplanes, keep all our airbuses, and the 93 airbuses to be delivered all make it here on time. That would put us at 5,000-5,500 pilots by 2024.

So could be 5-10% growth over the next 7 years, or 30-40% growth. Do you gamble with legacy retirements (minus age 67 stalling that for a couple years) with good contracts, or gamble with labor-hating, no contract jetblue with possible growth? Tough call. Hope it works out for us.

All great points. Don't forget, no pilot retirements.

blueballs
04-30-2018, 09:04 AM
All great points. Don't forget, no pilot retirements.
I’m sure hyper boy will point out we have like 3 retirements a year. You don’t want to upset him with “fake news”. #keepsgettingbetter

hilltopflyer
04-30-2018, 01:49 PM
I’m sure hyper boy will point out we have like 3 retirements a year. You don’t want to upset him with “fake news”. #keepsgettingbetter

If you do he will message you and call you a coward.

Bluedriver
04-30-2018, 02:02 PM
If you do he will message you and call you a coward.

Same here. Always wants me to call him.

BEWARE. This is likely a tactic to get your identity to use it to turn you in and get his Junior Chief Pilot wings.

BEWARE.

Gordie H
04-30-2018, 03:19 PM
Same here. Always wants me to call him.

BEWARE. This is likely a tactic to get your identity to use it to turn you in and get his Junior Chief Pilot wings.

BEWARE.


Crap, wish you had posted this warning earlier….I went ahead and called him. Told him I went to the picket. He was a real mean meanie and called me a poop head. Told me I should go be a CFI in Dominican Republic. Oh well, guess I’m F’d. :p

Bluedriver
04-30-2018, 03:24 PM
Crap, wish you had posted this warning earlier….I went ahead and called him. Told him I went to the picket. He was a real mean meanie and called me a poop head. Told me I should go be a CFI in Dominican Republic. Oh well, guess I’m F’d. :p

You serious Clark?

Gordie H
04-30-2018, 03:50 PM
You serious Clark?

Emm…no, not serious. Yes, I did speak with him, fine conversation, etc. No, he did not call me a “poop head”….just some jokes there. But I guess if you gotta explain your jokes they’re probably not so much, huh? Oh well, can’t win em all :)

Bluedriver
04-30-2018, 03:54 PM
Emm…no, not serious. Yes, I did speak with him, fine conversation, etc. No, he did not call me a “poop head”….just some jokes there. But I guess if you gotta explain your jokes they’re probably not so much, huh? Oh well, can’t win em all :)

Ironically, a CFI in the Dominican Republic is just going to be a regular JB captain in a few more years... You know, because of gateway 7 cashiers and all the Dominican Republic flying we do.

Bozo the pilot
04-30-2018, 05:30 PM
Ironically, a CFI in the Dominican Republic is just going to be a regular JB captain in a few more years... You know, because of gateway 7 cashiers and all the Dominican Republic flying we do.
^^^ all true ^^^
And all sad

benzoate
05-01-2018, 04:27 AM
Ironically, a CFI in the Dominican Republic is just going to be a regular JB captain in a few more years... You know, because of gateway 7 cashiers and all the Dominican Republic flying we do.

While Jetblue will use the ability to secure a $200K loan as a major driving force in selection other carriers developing similar programs will use a more stringent testing criteria, interviews and background checks. Dui's and dishonorable discharges are all welcome at Jetblue. We are your second chance carrier if you can pay.:eek:

Bluedriver
05-01-2018, 08:13 AM
While Jetblue will use the ability to secure a $200K loan as a major driving force in selection other carriers developing similar programs will use a more stringent testing criteria, interviews and background checks. Dui's and dishonorable discharges are all welcome at Jetblue. We are your second chance carrier if you can pay.:eek:

Yep. #keepsgettingbetter

CaptCoolHand
05-01-2018, 08:36 AM
1.X Billion in stock buy backs that have lowered the value of stock... and new planes with cash... CASH! Invests in money losing startup company electric planes! woohoo We're totally gonna put Elon to shame... Potato farm! LGBT parades! OH, electric ground equipment...

Won't afford pilots Market Rate Contract.

But at least we're ON time.
Leading the way to sustainability...

Bluedriver
05-01-2018, 09:06 AM
1.X Billion in stock buy backs that have lowered the value of stock... and new planes with cash... CASH! Invests in money losing startup company... Potato farm! LGBT parades!

Won't afford pilots Market Rate Contract.

But at least we're ON time.

"WON'T" afford pilots Market Rate Contract.

*WON'T*...
Egg's-actly.

CaptCoolHand
05-01-2018, 09:12 AM
"WON'T" afford pilots Market Rate Contract.

*WON'T*...
Egg's-actly.

Sactly... WON'T

IOW: could but doesn't

Let that marinade prospectives

654G
05-03-2018, 06:16 PM
As I remember the W2 shown earlier in the thread, the first year gross pay was approximately $38K. After taxes (which will be variable according to which state a person lives, and whether or not they have family/dependents), it would amount to a net amount of approx $32K?

Can anyone shed some light on what is left after taking contributions for medical, and other expenses associated with the company.

There will be the added cost for commuters of a crash pad/hotel, which seems to work out at over $3K+ per year.

I'm not too familiar with the standard benefits, and I don't know to what extent pilots receive crew meals (which, if you have to buy airport food, can be a valuable benefit/cost)

Just trying to get a picture of what the average pilot takes home after the basic tax/benefit expenses in years 1 and 2. Single person, and a family of four.



Thanks

hilltopflyer
05-04-2018, 12:59 AM
As I remember the W2 shown earlier in the thread, the first year gross pay was approximately $38K. After taxes (which will be variable according to which state a person lives, and whether or not they have family/dependents), it would amount to a net amount of approx $32K?

Can anyone shed some light on what is left after taking contributions for medical, and other expenses associated with the company.

There will be the added cost for commuters of a crash pad/hotel, which seems to work out at over $3K+ per year.

I'm not too familiar with the standard benefits, and I don't know to what extent pilots receive crew meals (which, if you have to buy airport food, can be a valuable benefit/cost)

Just trying to get a picture of what the average pilot takes home after the basic tax/benefit expenses in years 1 and 2. Single person, and a family of four.



Thanks

Crew meals? What's that. They tell us don't eat too many snaks onboard or drink too much. Med insurance is thru the roof, take home pay is terrible. Pretty much ups first year without the jump the second year.

Bluedriver
05-04-2018, 04:53 AM
As I remember the W2 shown earlier in the thread, the first year gross pay was approximately $38K. After taxes (which will be variable according to which state a person lives, and whether or not they have family/dependents), it would amount to a net amount of approx $32K?

Can anyone shed some light on what is left after taking contributions for medical, and other expenses associated with the company.

There will be the added cost for commuters of a crash pad/hotel, which seems to work out at over $3K+ per year.

I'm not too familiar with the standard benefits, and I don't know to what extent pilots receive crew meals (which, if you have to buy airport food, can be a valuable benefit/cost)

Just trying to get a picture of what the average pilot takes home after the basic tax/benefit expenses in years 1 and 2. Single person, and a family of four.



Thanks

Easy, you will take home 1/4 of what you *should*, and less than 1/2 of what you *expected*.

Welcome to JB.

Bozo the pilot
05-04-2018, 10:18 AM
Easy, you will take home 1/4 of what you *should*, and less than 1/2 of what you *expected*.

Welcome to JB.

For those of you reading- this is the reality of working at a glorified regional.
I know the argument will be -"its better than a regional".
If you are a Captain at a regional with a good schedule, my advice is to go directly to one of the real airlines. And if you're at a regional with a flow then STAY.
B6 sucks right now and it may be a while before any CBA. Management is disconnected from this pilot group. Good luck to all.

queue
05-04-2018, 01:58 PM
For those of you reading- this is the reality of working at a glorified regional.
I know the argument will be -"its better than a regional".
If you are a Captain at a regional with a good schedule, my advice is to go directly to one of the real airlines. And if you're at a regional with a flow then STAY.
B6 sucks right now and it may be a while before any CBA. Management is disconnected from this pilot group. Good luck to all.

BJ ownership and management is only concerned with their pocketbook. They have 0 zero care about pilots.

Only we care about us.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

pugpilot
05-04-2018, 07:44 PM
BJ ownership and management is only concerned with their pocketbook. They have 0 zero care about pilots.

Only we care about us.




The problem is that X% of the pilots that are flica-w40re juicers equally don't care.

PasserOGas
05-04-2018, 08:17 PM
The problem is that X% of the pilots that are flica-w40re juicers equally don't care.

Nothing wrong with picking up open time, unless you are fatiguing yourself in the process.

Fly SOP.

654G
05-05-2018, 04:26 AM
Like many others, in a less favorable position, I'm trying to get factual, unemotional information, so that I can make a decision about joining the company.

Since my recent post above, there have been six replies, only one of which, provided a useful piece of information - crew don't get crew meals - that's a big cost, and a big QOL issue - is that clear cut, or do you get access to meals on the airplane (not a great option, if available, but better than nothing).

If someone reading the thread can provide factual/practical information, rather than opinion (which is thoroughly documented in many other threads), that would be most welcome.

To say that it is half or a quarter of what you should, or otherwise make, is not helpful - what does it even mean, what's your benchmark, and this thread isn't about that. You documented on another thread, how much is your family's combined income - over six times the average income of a first year pilot. Can you please either provide the information, which some of us need, or channel your frustrations to the many other threads available.

The question was pretty basic, and one person in particular gave the most helpful piece of information I have yet seen (though a big thanks to others who tried to give perspective) - no emotion, no opinion, and totally informative.

I, and others have read about how bad things are - medical plan has often been touted. Can someone, please, illustrate that with an average cost of premium, cost of a doctor visit, something practical - I realize that people may opt for different plans - but something that we can hang our hat on, as we try to figure out what kind of financial situation we are going to find ourselves in.

In a nutshell. When you got your $40K odd the first year, and after you'd taken care of the basic obligations, both governmental and family, what were you left with. If you could stretch that to year 2 or 3, that would even be better.

Thanks

rvr1800
05-05-2018, 05:03 AM
Like many others, in a less favorable position, I'm trying to get factual, unemotional information, so that I can make a decision about joining the company.

Since my recent post above, there have been six replies, only one of which, provided a useful piece of information - crew don't get crew meals - that's a big cost, and a big QOL issue - is that clear cut, or do you get access to meals on the airplane (not a great option, if available, but better than nothing).

If someone reading the thread can provide factual/practical information, rather than opinion (which is thoroughly documented in many other threads), that would be most welcome.

To say that it is half or a quarter of what you should, or otherwise make, is not helpful - what does it even mean, what's your benchmark, and this thread isn't about that. You documented on another thread, how much is your family's combined income - over six times the average income of a first year pilot. Can you please either provide the information, which some of us need, or channel your frustrations to the many other threads available.

The question was pretty basic, and one person in particular gave the most helpful piece of information I have yet seen (though a big thanks to others who tried to give perspective) - no emotion, no opinion, and totally informative.

I, and others have read about how bad things are - medical plan has often been touted. Can someone, please, illustrate that with an average cost of premium, cost of a doctor visit, something practical - I realize that people may opt for different plans - but something that we can hang our hat on, as we try to figure out what kind of financial situation we are going to find ourselves in.

In a nutshell. When you got your $40K odd the first year, and after you'd taken care of the basic obligations, both governmental and family, what were you left with. If you could stretch that to year 2 or 3, that would even be better.

Thanks

Well you did ask what were some reasons for the low morale. So you opened it up to another thread pointing out how far behind we are. Here is a link to our contract comparison guide that has all the medical insurance information you were asking. I’m not on our insurance so I can’t help with those questions but this guide is very thorough.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/Contract%20Comparison/JetBlue%20Contract%20Comparison.pdf

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 05:44 AM
Well you did ask what were some reasons for the low morale. So you opened it up to another thread pointing out how far behind we are. Here is a link to our contract comparison guide that has all the medical insurance information you were asking. I’m not on our insurance so I can’t help with those questions but this guide is very thorough.

http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/jetblue2/Contract%20Comparison/JetBlue%20Contract%20Comparison.pdf

What is not in the guide? 10 hour 3 days with redeyes on them. Also 5 hour 2 days in the form of redeye turns.

30% or so of our flights are redeyes, and as a junior guy with little movement, guess who will be flying them for at least 2 years?

Welcome to jetblew. Hope you came ready to fight.

654G
05-05-2018, 05:52 AM
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark.

Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.

As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.

I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.

The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example

'RVR' - great information. Thank you

Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 06:07 AM
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark, which really doesn't have any substance.

Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.

As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.

I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.

The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - by any standard, not good leadership

Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light. So does that junior guy end up with 10 days off per month (potentially) - I saw that reserves have a minimum of 12 days off, but I didn't see anything about line holders

I dont believe line holders have minimum days off except the FAR requirements. I could be wrong about that. I have seen my initial schedule come in with 21 days at work, with 4-5 trips including 23-30 hour layovers that I really didn't get paid for. Those are days off right?

30 hours at the Detroit Airport Hotel! Includes a beautifull view of the airport parking lot!

Everything, and I mean every little thing about this place sucks relative to our peers. From hotels, to layovers to schedules, to movement, to pay. Every aspect.

That is all you need to know.

queue
05-05-2018, 08:04 AM
Fair point, I just hoped for something anecdotal, rather than the 'they all suck' type of flippant remark.

Morale can go up and down for a number of reasons. So you look at the constants, and usually what is left generally becomes the cause of your lower morale.

As pay and benefits have remained fairly constant, then some other issues seem to be to blame.
Look back a few years, and the sentiment was very different. Since then, your competitors have rewarded their pilots, while you guys are left hanging.

I've read most of the threads, so would you see it as a change in leadership style (?), change to policies, or new management personnel.

The post on a different thread, where the higher management allegedly ignored the pilots, while engaging with other employees at BOS - that was a good example

'RVR' - great information. Thank you

Thanks 'POG', that sheds some light.

One of the biggest morale killers is that they market themselves as another day at the Brady Bunch home but in reality it's more like being having your parents stealing from your piggy bank while you're in the hospital to pay off their drug habits.

BJ spends inordinate amounts of time and $$$ to paint themselves as a hip/trendy/customer caring culture but it's nothing more than Management School 101 stuff used to pacify your employees. The truth is that they are ruthless with their "discipline". I know about 10 people (half Captains, half other workers like gate agents, FA's) who have been either suspended, pay suspended, or otherwise got something in their file. Everything BJ does revolves around using the legal system (e.g. policies) against you. They have policy books (e.g. FOM, FSM, Bluebook) but the problem is that they can rewrite it or interpret it however they want. Just read my posts about the "dependability policy". Even if you follow their policies, if they want to destroy you, they can and they will. They will dig through trash to find dirt on you or monitor your internet activity. Obviously there are many examples of bad employees, but nevertheless they drag in good people too. You will be walking on eggshells all the time dealing with other people at this company, particularly non-pilots. My best advice is that if you ever detect any leading questions, any setup of conflict from an FA, gate agent, etc., just walk away. The biggest trap is engaging people because then they can lie intentionally or unintentionally. You are then left to prove your innocence against someone for whom it costs nothing to make an accusation. For many FAs (not all), for example, this is a temp job or something they can just jump away from at any time. For you, it's a career. So you're dealing with people who may resent you just because you're a pilot and you get paid more. Obviously I can't write about any specific cases here because of company retribution to several people, but if you ask around in person, you'll find out for sure. There are a few articles on line written by third parties such as the one where a flight attendant got fired for using the jetbridge phone to call operations.

If they dropped the whole humanity, culture, caring, B.S., at least they would be honest. They ought to just change their slogan to "profit at any cost" or "you don't matter". At least it's truthful as a corporation. I can't expect a typical poorly ran corporation to be any better than that. BJ claims they are, but they are not. I particularly detest when these MBA flunkies use the word "family". Well, this "family" wouldn't hesitate to burn you alive if you are a liability to them. If you expect this place to live up to its propaganda, you will hate it. If you understand that it's a job, they are not your family or friends, then there are no false expectations. You will be much happier provided you always watch your back. 99.999% of the pilots here are wonderful (even the willfully ignorant apologists) so they are not going to cause you issues in the cockpit. Just watch out with calling Crew Services, calling in fatigued, being late, missing commutes, talking to people, making creative cabin announcements, waiting to update your iPad, doing FLICA trades inflight, etc. Most people don't live in fear for their job BUT you have no legal protection at this company. It is essentially "at will" with a facade of having work rules. If you become a liability to them, expect them to launch nukes at you without remorse. They'll just get some other low rent pilot to hire.

I hope you don't make any mistakes at this company because they will hang you. Your turn apologists and chief pilots...


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

pilotpayne
05-05-2018, 08:27 AM
One of the biggest morale killers is that they market themselves as another day at the Brady Bunch home but in reality it's more like being having your parents stealing from your piggy bank while you're in the hospital to pay off their drug habits.

BJ spends inordinate amounts of time and $$$ to paint themselves as a hip/trendy/customer caring culture but it's nothing more than Management School 101 stuff used to pacify your employees. The truth is that they are ruthless with their "discipline". I know about 10 people (half Captains, half other workers like gate agents, FA's) who have been either suspended, pay suspended, or otherwise got something in their file. Everything BJ does revolves around using the legal system (e.g. policies) against you. They have policy books (e.g. FOM, FSM, Bluebook) but the problem is that they can rewrite it or interpret it however they want. Just read my posts about the "dependability policy". Even if you follow their policies, if they want to destroy you, they can and they will. They will dig through trash to find dirt on you or monitor your internet activity. Obviously there are many examples of bad employees, but nevertheless they drag in good people too. You will be walking on eggshells all the time dealing with other people at this company, particularly non-pilots. My best advice is that if you ever detect any leading questions, any setup of conflict from an FA, gate agent, etc., just walk away. The biggest trap is engaging people because then they can lie intentionally or unintentionally. You are then left to prove your innocence against someone for whom it costs nothing to make an accusation. For many FAs (not all), for example, this is a temp job or something they can just jump away from at any time. For you, it's a career. So you're dealing with people who may resent you just because you're a pilot and you get paid more. Obviously I can't write about any specific cases here because of company retribution to several people, but if you ask around in person, you'll find out for sure. There are a few articles on line written by third parties such as the one where a flight attendant got fired for using the jetbridge phone to call operations.

If they dropped the whole humanity, culture, caring, B.S., at least they would be honest. They ought to just change their slogan to "profit at any cost" or "you don't matter". At least it's truthful as a corporation. I can't expect a typical poorly ran corporation to be any better than that. BJ claims they are, but they are not. I particularly detest when these MBA flunkies use the word "family". Well, this "family" wouldn't hesitate to burn you alive if you are a liability to them. If you expect this place to live up to its propaganda, you will hate it. If you understand that it's a job, they are not your family or friends, then there are no false expectations. You will be much happier provided you always watch your back. 99.999% of the pilots here are wonderful (even the willfully ignorant apologists) so they are not going to cause you issues in the cockpit. Just watch out with calling Crew Services, calling in fatigued, being late, missing commutes, talking to people, making creative cabin announcements, waiting to update your iPad, doing FLICA trades inflight, etc. Most people don't live in fear for their job BUT you have no legal protection at this company. It is essentially "at will" with a facade of having work rules. If you become a liability to them, expect them to launch nukes at you without remorse. They'll just get some other low rent pilot to hire.

I hope you don't make any mistakes at this company because they will hang you. Your turn apologists and chief pilots...


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


I love that last line.
Define the person and discredit them before they can even type or if they do. Well done.

Bluedriver
05-05-2018, 08:48 AM
I dont believe line holders have minimum days off except the FAR requirements. I could be wrong about that. I have seen my initial schedule come in with 21 days at work, with 4-5 trips including 23-30 hour layovers that I really didn't get paid for. Those are days off right?

30 hours at the Detroit Airport Hotel! Includes a beautifull view of the airport parking lot!

Everything, and I mean every little thing about this place sucks relative to our peers. From hotels, to layovers to schedules, to movement, to pay. Every aspect.

That is all you need to know.

Here it is 654.

Nothing more to know. If you want the worst of the worst, welcome aboard.

aldonite7667
05-05-2018, 09:54 AM
If I knew how many red eyes I’d be doing I never would have come here. Sure, you can get senior enough to avoid them in the right seat but when you get to the left seat it will be your life.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 10:04 AM
If I knew how many red eyes I’d be doing I never would have come here. Sure, you can get senior enough to avoid them in the right seat but when you get to the left seat it will be your life.

There's a real easy solution to that problem, and it involves bidding the 190.

If we go to Europe are guys going to complain about flying to Europe in the middle of the night too?

Southerner
05-05-2018, 11:04 AM
There's a real easy solution to that problem, and it involves bidding the 190.

If we go to Europe are guys going to complain about flying to Europe in the middle of the night too?

Shhhhhhhhhhhh.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 11:05 AM
Shhhhhhhhhhhh.

Southerner is right, avoid the 190 at all costs, especially if you're senior to me. Only juicers fly the 190.

Southerner
05-05-2018, 11:26 AM
If you have any specific questions, send me a PM, and I'll be happy to answer.

nuball5
05-05-2018, 12:54 PM
If I knew how many red eyes I’d be doing I never would have come here. Sure, you can get senior enough to avoid them in the right seat but when you get to the left seat it will be your life.

I have some friends that are very junior lineholders on the Airbus in JFK that are able to swap to avoid red-eyes. Probably has to do with the fact that they live in base and don't care about commutability I'm sure.

hilltopflyer
05-05-2018, 01:02 PM
I have some friends that are very junior lineholders on the Airbus in JFK that are able to swap to avoid red-eyes. Probably has to do with the fact that they live in base and don't care about commutability I'm sure.

Yes living in base has everything to do with it. If you commute expect a ton of red eyes.

Bozo the pilot
05-05-2018, 01:05 PM
There's a real easy solution to that problem, and it involves bidding the 190.

If we go to Europe are guys going to complain about flying to Europe in the middle of the night too?
So glad that management has free time to advise the pilot group. :D

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 01:11 PM
There's a real easy solution to that problem, and it involves bidding the 190.

If we go to Europe are guys going to complain about flying to Europe in the middle of the night too?

I thought the solution was going to a real airline.

To the Europe question, we do not go to Europe. Also, yes we will complain.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 01:13 PM
I thought the solution was going to a real airline.

To the Europe question, we do not go to Europe. Also, yes we will complain.

You think real airlines don't fly red eyes?

Do they pay in gumdrops and unicorn crap too?

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 01:23 PM
You think real airlines don't fly red eyes?

Do they pay in gumdrops and unicorn crap too?

They do NOT fly the percentage of them we do. Fly around at 3am sometime on the east coast. What percentage of the callsigns are Jetbluexxx vs much larger carriers? You would think we were the US national airline at that hour.

Stop defending this place. Just. Stop.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 01:30 PM
They do NOT fly the percentage of them we do. Fly around at 3am sometime on the east coast. What percentage of the callsigns are Jetbluexxx vs much larger carriers? You would think we were the US national airline at that hour.

Stop defending this place. Just. Stop.

I'm not defending anything, I'm saying everyone fly's red eyes.

And the further the distance, the more you fly at night.

But since you hate yourself, why haven't you gone to one of the WO regionals so you can get a flow through to a real airline? Too scared? Afraid to put your money where your very large mouth is?

Bozo the pilot
05-05-2018, 02:15 PM
I'm not defending anything, I'm saying everyone fly's red eyes.

And the further the distance, the more you fly at night.

But since you hate yourself, why haven't you gone to one of the WO regionals so you can get a flow through to a real airline? Too scared? Afraid to put your money where your very large mouth is?
Na- you defend B6 at every turn Tbone. :D

hilltopflyer
05-05-2018, 02:49 PM
I'm not defending anything, I'm saying everyone fly's red eyes.

And the further the distance, the more you fly at night.

But since you hate yourself, why haven't you gone to one of the WO regionals so you can get a flow through to a real airline? Too scared? Afraid to put your money where your very large mouth is?

How can you say you don't defend anything with a straight face?

benzoate
05-05-2018, 02:52 PM
Like many others, in a less favorable position, I'm trying to get factual, unemotional information, so that I can make a decision about joining the company.

Since my recent post above, there have been six replies, only one of which, provided a useful piece of information - crew don't get crew meals - that's a big cost, and a big QOL issue - is that clear cut, or do you get access to meals on the airplane (not a great option, if available, but better than nothing).

If someone reading the thread can provide factual/practical information, rather than opinion (which is thoroughly documented in many other threads), that would be most welcome.

To say that it is half or a quarter of what you should, or otherwise make, is not helpful - what does it even mean, what's your benchmark, and this thread isn't about that. You documented on another thread, how much is your family's combined income - over six times the average income of a first year pilot. Can you please either provide the information, which some of us need, or channel your frustrations to the many other threads available.

The question was pretty basic, and one person in particular gave the most helpful piece of information I have yet seen (though a big thanks to others who tried to give perspective) - no emotion, no opinion, and totally informative.

I, and others have read about how bad things are - medical plan has often been touted. Can someone, please, illustrate that with an average cost of premium, cost of a doctor visit, something practical - I realize that people may opt for different plans - but something that we can hang our hat on, as we try to figure out what kind of financial situation we are going to find ourselves in.

In a nutshell. When you got your $40K odd the first year, and after you'd taken care of the basic obligations, both governmental and family, what were you left with. If you could stretch that to year 2 or 3, that would even be better.

Thanks
Your Jetblue medical will cost you $250 MORE per month than your peers. You will have a $2600 deductible as opposed to $1000 like your peers.

Reserve is 12 days off but with Jetblue reserve you will start early and end late. Each block of reserve simply add a day minimum since you will have to come in the night before to start reserve. In short plan for 9-10 days “off”.

Jetblue retirement requires you to provide 5% in order to receive 8%. Your peers are provided 15-16% monthly regardless of what they provide.

You have ZERO protections in the event of a merger. Section 15 of the PEA states the bottom 50% will not necessarily be integrated but you have a “moat”.

40% of Jetblue flying is red eyes.

Top captain pay is 218 when EVERY OTHER CARRIER is 250 and above.

Let’s talk about intangibles. You will be expected to clean the aircraft otherwise the VP of Customer Expereince has threatened to come after you.
The airline is so poorly managed operationally that we routinely shut down, Reset the say, the airline after a winter storm.

Jetblue is 12 out of 12 in terms on on-time performance. Fancy slogans aside Jetblue sinmply cant board an aircraft (D0) and arrive on-time(D14). Jetblue simply cant do it.

Jetblue has promoted VP’s with ZERO airline experience to decision making roles which have year over year yielded ZERO results in terms of improvement.

The recent VP of Flight OPs hire came from Great Lakes. Need I say more?

Every Jetblue pilot you meet will tell you this place has such potential but at some point the airline has to realize said potential. Year over year we are all disappointed.

In short if you have options at other carriers exercise them. Every other major airline will provide you with more than Jetblue. Potential doesn’t pay the bills and provide for retirement.

Lastly, “culture” is a Jetblue word loosely used to ask you to work harder for less. We have literally been told by former VP Maruster that at jetblue you have to sacrifice to work here. Again, need I say more.

Good luck to you and your decision. Sorry for the choppy response. Running late.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 02:58 PM
How can you say you don't defend anything with a straight face?

Years of ALPA work, how about you?

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 03:44 PM
I'm not defending anything, I'm saying everyone fly's red eyes.

And the further the distance, the more you fly at night.

But since you hate yourself, why haven't you gone to one of the WO regionals so you can get a flow through to a real airline? Too scared? Afraid to put your money where your very large mouth is?


First off, I have my apps out. Second, if I could trade places with a 6 year capt at a regional with a flow I absolutely would.

Also, this place sucks. That is all.

Bozo the pilot
05-05-2018, 04:39 PM
Years of ALPA work, how about you?

And yet you still defend the company. You dont work for alpa:rolleyes:

PasserOGas
05-05-2018, 06:38 PM
Years of ALPA work, how about you?

Negotiating against ALPA doesn't really count as "ALPA work". Semantics, I know.

PotatoChip
05-05-2018, 06:44 PM
40% of Jetblue flying is red eyes.


That can’t be accurate.

jtrain609
05-05-2018, 06:46 PM
Negotiating against ALPA doesn't really count as "ALPA work". Semantics, I know.

Wrong side of the table, kiddo.

benzoate
05-05-2018, 08:26 PM
That can’t be accurate. that’s per JetBlue’s own statistic. It’s was published in a recent flops email. I’ll try and dig it up.

CaptCoolHand
05-05-2018, 10:03 PM
That can’t be accurate.

We have more planes In the air at 0300 than fedex.

PasserOGas
05-06-2018, 03:03 AM
Wrong side of the table, kiddo.

So he is one of those guys that works for ALPA and somehow manages to get a high paying management position after negotiations are complete? I have heard about them.

RiddleEagle18
05-06-2018, 03:30 AM
We have more planes In the air at 0300 than fedex.



The Dominican at 0300 is rocking. JB party!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

stevenscreek
05-06-2018, 06:38 AM
We have more planes In the air at 0300 than fedex.



That's only because our AM push out of Memphis doesn't even start till 0330 EST (0230 CST)... but still I get your point.....

jtrain609
05-06-2018, 06:44 AM
So he is one of those guys that works for ALPA and somehow manages to get a high paying management position after negotiations are complete? I have heard about them.

Yeah they made me the new VP of Flight Ops here for my ALPA negotiating work at my regional.

MatRdr13
05-06-2018, 07:08 AM
How long is the orientation and training in Orlando? How long between training start and actually being on reserve?

PasserOGas
05-06-2018, 07:23 AM
Yeah they made me the new VP of Flight Ops here for my ALPA negotiating work at my regional.

Hey, you are the one defending the amount of redeyes we fly.

Bozo the pilot
05-06-2018, 07:24 AM
Hey, you are the one defending the amount of redeyes we fly.

Defends everything Blew:rolleyes:

jtrain609
05-06-2018, 07:27 AM
Hey, you are the one defending the amount of redeyes we fly.

Did you grow up under power lines as a kid?

BeatNavy
05-06-2018, 07:48 AM
How long is the orientation and training in Orlando? How long between training start and actually being on reserve?

Total initial footprint is about 2 months depending on breaks and how long it takes to get OE done. Then misery/reserve begins.

Separate question...why would you want to come to this dumpster fire? This place is a joke. If I could leave I would. If I had a crystal ball a few years ago I would have stayed at my regional. Man I thought this place would be awesome. And it seemed that way initially. I really wanted to hang my hat here and was proud to work here. Soaked up the blue juice initially. Now I hate it here and really wish I had never gotten the call for this place. I helped one of my buddies get on here not that long ago and I feel really bad about it now. Almost like pumping a stock that ends up losing one of your friends a lot of money. I tried to warn him before he started while he could still stay at his other airline, but the allure of a “major” airline was too much. I won’t write any more letters to help people out to come here, at least not until management makes a 180.

The worst part for me....I screwed my family by coming here. Pay, (lack of) time off, and my misery at home that carries over from trips here (usually after flying with juicers helping out the flailing operation), has had negative impacts on my family life. If it was just me, that’d be one thing. But I have a wife and kids who now suffer from the inept and greedy management at this place. I wish culture put food on my table, but unfortunately I can’t even use culture as toilet paper. Oh, and culture doesn’t even exist here anymore, so discussing culture bucks is moot.

Don’t come here...save yourself the physical, emotional, mental, and financial misery. It’s not worth it. Maybe it will be one day. Today is not the day. Even with a contract, this place will still have major issues, with a little bit of potential thrown in for good measure.

pilotpayne
05-06-2018, 08:15 AM
Total initial footprint is about 2 months depending on breaks and how long it takes to get OE done. Then misery/reserve begins.

Separate question...why would you want to come to this dumpster fire? This place is a joke. If I could leave I would. If I had a crystal ball a few years ago I would have stayed at my regional. Man I thought this place would be awesome. And it seemed that way initially. I really wanted to hang my hat here and was proud to work here. Soaked up the blue juice initially. Now I hate it here and really wish I had never gotten the call for this place. I helped one of my buddies get on here not that long ago and I feel really bad about it now. Almost like pumping a stock that ends up losing one of your friends a lot of money. I tried to warn him before he started while he could still stay at his other airline, but the allure of a “major” airline was too much. I won’t write any more letters to help people out to come here, at least not until management makes a 180.

The worst part for me....I screwed my family by coming here. Pay, (lack of) time off, and my misery at home that carries over from trips here (usually after flying with juicers helping out the flailing operation), has had negative impacts on my family life. If it was just me, that’d be one thing. But I have a wife and kids who now suffer from the inept and greedy management at this place. I wish culture put food on my table, but unfortunately I can’t even use culture as toilet paper. Oh, and culture doesn’t even exist here anymore, so discussing culture bucks is moot.

Don’t come here...save yourself the physical, emotional, mental, and financial misery. It’s not worth it. Maybe it will be one day. Today is not the day. Even with a contract, this place will still have major issues, with a little bit of potential thrown in for good measure.


We have lost a few pilots and I’m not saying you are close to anything like that. BUT reading this post especially about work bleeding into home life and some other things. Make sure if it really is this bad that you reach out to ALPA committees that could offer some help.

capt707
05-06-2018, 09:28 AM
The worst part for me....I screwed my family by coming here. Pay, (lack of) time off, and my misery at home that carries over from trips here (usually after flying with juicers helping out the flailing operation), has had negative impacts on my family life. If it was just me, that’d be one thing. But I have a wife and kids who now suffer from the inept and greedy management at this place.

I have the EXACT same feelings. Took the words right out of my mouth. You can add the frustration of what I call the "Alpa lanyard posers". They wear the lanyard but still do everyone elses job and try to go above and beyond. Pathetic!

queue
05-06-2018, 10:25 AM
I wish culture put food on my table, but unfortunately I can’t even use culture as toilet paper. Oh, and culture doesn’t even exist here anymore, so discussing culture bucks is moot.

Attention juicers, company apologists, and pilots who never gave their brain a chance.

It's important that we define and understand the lexicon of modern corporate America, and for that matter, how movements like leftists redefine the language in order to exert thought control. Examples of such terms include the terms: CULTure, inclusive, diversity, progressive, etc. What you have in modern times is a collusion of political ideology with capitalistic mechanisms. Corporations have taken lessons from leftist ideologies (e.g. Google, Facebook, BJ). Companies look for specific personality types under the cloak of the term "diversity" when they really want like-minded people. Google has recently exemplified this as they fired a conservative who dissented from the Google "culture".



Google managers kept blacklists of conservative employees and one manager considered holding 'trials,' a new lawsuit alleges

(http://www.businessinsider.com/conservative-google-employees-are-blacklisted-lawsuit-alleges-2018-1)
Google Fires Engineer Who Wrote ‘Anti-Diversity’ Memo (http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/07/google-fires-engineer-who-wrote-anti-diversity-memo/)


Naturally, they destroyed the guy. Their "diversity" program was merely to find like minded people or at least people who are gullible enough to believe anything they are told without using critical thought. Ever wonder why BJ sends out daily emails with links to articles that are pro-BJ but not truthful in the sense they leave out the negative stuff? It's all to give you a preponderance of evidence so that when you hear a granule of truth, the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance gives you reason to ignore it. If you control the information people consume, you can control "CULTure". The political left are experts at controlling information because they have their roots in Marxism, which is why they always silence free speech (e.g. conservative lawyers such as Ben Shapiro at UC Berkeley attacked by ANTIFA). Corporate "CULTure" is a parallel of this concept. Their aim is to control what you think.

On to "CULTure"... culture is an assumed-positive term marketed by corporations as a benefit to employment. In reality, it means nothing except that the people who believe it are uncritical thinkers. Culture is a system of control.

Please read the abstract to this research paper written by your favorite leftist authoritarians at Berkeley University: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/chatman/papers/30_CultureAsSocialControl.pdf

Here's the abstract:

CULTURE AS SOCIAL CONTROL: CORPORATIONS, CULTS, AND COMMITMENT
Charles A. O’Reilly and Jennifer A. Chatman


The notion of “organizational culture” has attracted a broad base of scholarly interest. While many researchers study culture using an ethnographic approach, we examine it from a functional perspective, viewing culture within groups and organizations as a social control system based on shared norms and values. From a psychological perspective, we show how a shared normative order or culture can influence members’ focus of attention, shape interpretations of events, and guide attitudes and behavior. Specifically, we explore the psychological mechanisms used to develop social control systems and demonstrate how similar these approaches are across a variety of strong culture settings, ranging from conventional organizations to more extreme examples of cults and religious sects.


ALPA needs to attack "culture". People need to wake up and understand that a corporation is nothing more than a legal entity entitled to earn a profit. We the People have given the privilege to the government to allow corporations to exist. A corporation cannot have human characteristics such as love or caring. It is merely a legal construct. Whenever a corporation presents itself as a "family", they are merely hijacking the term to brainwash the uncritical thinkers. The truth is that a corporation merely wants maximum authoritarian control over its workforce to extract the maximum profit possible.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Movie_poster_the_corporation.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(2003_film))

This is a left-leaning documentary (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/)but the ideas are correct.


(Fake) "culture" is an insult to professionals like us. If they want to extract maximum profit from their workforce, pay them as the professionals they are, and have contractual work rules they agree to. No one should believe BJ's failed propaganda of "culture pics of the week" and "blue heroes". This is for fools. Instead, look at the results:


Paying customers to snitch on flight attendants.
Having a dependability policy that is anti-commuter and has no defined parameters. It's just a tool to get rid of people.
Spending boatloads on money on hiring union-buster law firms.
Paying far below industry standard.
Non-existent work rule contract.
Sub-par treatment of customers (dirty aircraft, self-imposed flight cancellations, always late, etc.).

Juicers are no different than people who do things for colored ribbons.

http://www.quote-coyote.com/album/small/War-Quotes-Napoleon.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
05-06-2018, 04:26 PM
Did you grow up under power lines as a kid?

No, but then again, my parents didn't work at B6, so they could afford a descent neighborhood for me to grow up in.

PasserOGas
05-06-2018, 04:30 PM
I have the EXACT same feelings. Took the words right out of my mouth. You can add the frustration of what I call the "Alpa lanyard posers". They wear the lanyard but still do everyone elses job and try to go above and beyond. Pathetic!

THIS. So many. Very discouraging. I hope we can strike so we can finally see all the would be scabs that work here.

Southerner
05-06-2018, 04:50 PM
THIS. So many. Very discouraging. I hope we can strike so we can finally see all the would be scabs that work here.

I despise this attitude. You're essentially saying that unless someone feels the exact same way that you do, and behaves the exact same way that you do, they are scabs, which is pure crap.

Doing a stand-up PA or cleaning after non-revving is not the same as being a scab. Stop. You're both dividing the pilot group AND devaluing the meaning of the word "scab."

654G
05-06-2018, 07:19 PM
Referencing RVR's ALPA link on page 11.

It seems that a contract will need to be 'industry leading' to be considered a 'success' relative to peer airlines. This would keep the pilots on par with these other airlines, whose current contracts are approaching their end.

Which airlines are your peers. I know that you guys do at least as good a job as, for example, a Delta pilot. So is that your peer, and can the company's business model sustain that comparison.

Having a reasonable expectation will make a new contract more acceptable.

PasserOGas
05-06-2018, 07:29 PM
I despise this attitude. You're essentially saying that unless someone feels the exact same way that you do, and behaves the exact same way that you do, they are scabs, which is pure crap.

Doing a stand-up PA or cleaning after non-revving is not the same as being a scab. Stop. You're both dividing the pilot group AND devaluing the meaning of the word "scab."

I said wanna be scab. They havent crossed a picket line, but totally would. They would then proceed to jump through logical hoops explaining how this action was for the good of the pilot group, and how they vounteered for ALPA once so its OK.

Southerner
05-06-2018, 07:32 PM
Referencing RVR's ALPA link on page 11.

It seems that a contract will need to be 'industry leading' to be considered a 'success' relative to peer airlines. This would keep the pilots on par with these other airlines, whose current contracts are approaching their end.

Which airlines are your peers. I know that you guys do at least as good a job as, for example, a Delta pilot. So is that your peer, and can the company's business model sustain that comparison.

Having a reasonable expectation will make a new contract more acceptable.

Alaska/Virgin is our closest peer in many ways. Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant is below us in terms of business model and customer. Delta/AA/United is above us.

Pilots are in demand, and that fact is driving up the pay rates across the industry. It's generally a bad idea to speak on a public forum about what would get a yes vote.

Southerner
05-06-2018, 07:35 PM
I said wanna be scab. They havent crossed a picket line, but totally would. They would then proceed to jump through logical hoops explaining how this action was for the good of the pilot group, and how they vounteered for ALPA once so its OK.

That's my point. I think you're extremely wrong about anyone crossing the line. You're taking an apples situation, and concluding oranges.

BeatNavy
05-06-2018, 09:00 PM
Alaska/Virgin is our closest peer in many ways. Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant is below us in terms of business model and customer. Delta/AA/United is above us.

Pilots are in demand, and that fact is driving up the pay rates across the industry. It's generally a bad idea to speak on a public forum about what would get a yes vote.

Above us in what way? Are you referring to the “where we fit into the industry” slide they like to show? Because the way I see it, we have a much higher profit per passenger (and per pilot) than DL/AA/UA, and our hourly rate should reflect that. What is better about their business model, product, or customer that correlates to and commands a higher pilot pay rate? They have more robust networks, both dom/intl, more first class seats, and more business travelers due to their better network. And despite having that, as well as cheap regional feed to help their bottom line, they still have less profit per seat than us. And we provide more legroom, free WiFi, and debatably (less so these days) a better customer experience. Are you suggesting we should continue to subsidize our already higher margins with substandard pilot pay? Why?

I challenge you to come up with one good reason a jetblue A320 pilot should make less than a delta A320 pilot, keeping the above in mind.

When delta got their last contract, they didn’t say “oh let’s take UA/AA/SWA rates, find the average, and call it a day.” The mindset of the legacy pilots is reflected perfectly in UA’s snap up clause, which provided pay parity with whatever a competitor got in their negotiations. Meanwhile, we ask for average, because many of our weaklings are just happy to be here. Our management doesn’t want to hire good pilots...they want weak-minded culture pilots who like to work for less, hence our grocery bagger to FO gateway, and our light twin to FO gateway flow. Why are we asking for an average of the top 6 airline rates when we have the highest margins and ability to be paid the highest in the industry? Too many weak minds here who just don’t get it and don’t know their worth. That’s why. Mgmt thanks you to your face for sacrificing to work here, then laughs at you all the way to the bank.

“Thank you, southerner, for rowing in the opposite direction of the pilot group, not showing unity with your fellow pilots by not wearing a lanyard or standing next to them on the picket line, being happy to make less money than your peers, and enabling us to make more money off of all your backs.” - sincerely, management.

Bozo the pilot
05-06-2018, 09:57 PM
Alaska/Virgin is our closest peer in many ways. Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant is below us in terms of business model and customer. Delta/AA/United is above us.

Pilots are in demand, and that fact is driving up the pay rates across the industry. It's generally a bad idea to speak on a public forum about what would get a yes vote.

You still dont get it do you? I hope someday you value yourself more than this.
Too many guys like you here. Shameful.:rolleyes:

embraerjetpilot
05-07-2018, 03:14 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.



Who doesn’t think for themselves now?


Attention juicers, company apologists, and pilots who never gave their brain a chance.

It's important that we define and understand the lexicon of modern corporate America, and for that matter, how movements like leftists redefine the language in order to exert thought control. Examples of such terms include the terms: CULTure, inclusive, diversity, progressive, etc. What you have in modern times is a collusion of political ideology with capitalistic mechanisms. Corporations have taken lessons from leftist ideologies (e.g. Google, Facebook, BJ). Companies look for specific personality types under the cloak of the term "diversity" when they really want like-minded people. Google has recently exemplified this as they fired a conservative who dissented from the Google "culture".



Google managers kept blacklists of conservative employees and one manager considered holding 'trials,' a new lawsuit alleges

(http://www.businessinsider.com/conservative-google-employees-are-blacklisted-lawsuit-alleges-2018-1)
Google Fires Engineer Who Wrote ‘Anti-Diversity’ Memo (http://dailycaller.com/2017/08/07/google-fires-engineer-who-wrote-anti-diversity-memo/)


Naturally, they destroyed the guy. Their "diversity" program was merely to find like minded people or at least people who are gullible enough to believe anything they are told without using critical thought. Ever wonder why BJ sends out daily emails with links to articles that are pro-BJ but not truthful in the sense they leave out the negative stuff? It's all to give you a preponderance of evidence so that when you hear a granule of truth, the psychological phenomena of cognitive dissonance gives you reason to ignore it. If you control the information people consume, you can control "CULTure". The political left are experts at controlling information because they have their roots in Marxism, which is why they always silence free speech (e.g. conservative lawyers such as Ben Shapiro at UC Berkeley attacked by ANTIFA). Corporate "CULTure" is a parallel of this concept. Their aim is to control what you think.

On to "CULTure"... culture is an assumed-positive term marketed by corporations as a benefit to employment. In reality, it means nothing except that the people who believe it are uncritical thinkers. Culture is a system of control.

Please read the abstract to this research paper written by your favorite leftist authoritarians at Berkeley University: http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/chatman/papers/30_CultureAsSocialControl.pdf

Here's the abstract:




ALPA needs to attack "culture". People need to wake up and understand that a corporation is nothing more than a legal entity entitled to earn a profit. We the People have given the privilege to the government to allow corporations to exist. A corporation cannot have human characteristics such as love or caring. It is merely a legal construct. Whenever a corporation presents itself as a "family", they are merely hijacking the term to brainwash the uncritical thinkers. The truth is that a corporation merely wants maximum authoritarian control over its workforce to extract the maximum profit possible.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Movie_poster_the_corporation.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Corporation_(2003_film))

This is a left-leaning documentary (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0379225/)but the ideas are correct.


(Fake) "culture" is an insult to professionals like us. If they want to extract maximum profit from their workforce, pay them as the professionals they are, and have contractual work rules they agree to. No one should believe BJ's failed propaganda of "culture pics of the week" and "blue heroes". This is for fools. Instead, look at the results:


Paying customers to snitch on flight attendants.
Having a dependability policy that is anti-commuter and has no defined parameters. It's just a tool to get rid of people.
Spending boatloads on money on hiring union-buster law firms.
Paying far below industry standard.
Non-existent work rule contract.
Sub-par treatment of customers (dirty aircraft, self-imposed flight cancellations, always late, etc.).

Juicers are no different than people who do things for colored ribbons.

http://www.quote-coyote.com/album/small/War-Quotes-Napoleon.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 03:18 AM
Above us in what way? Are you referring to the “where we fit into the industry” slide they like to show? Because the way I see it, we have a much higher profit per passenger (and per pilot) than DL/AA/UA, and our hourly rate should reflect that. What is better about their business model, product, or customer that correlates to and commands a higher pilot pay rate? They have more robust networks, both dom/intl, more first class seats, and more business travelers due to their better network. And despite having that, as well as cheap regional feed to help their bottom line, they still have less profit per seat than us. And we provide more legroom, free WiFi, and debatably (less so these days) a better customer experience. Are you suggesting we should continue to subsidize our already higher margins with substandard pilot pay? Why?

I challenge you to come up with one good reason a jetblue A320 pilot should make less than a delta A320 pilot, keeping the above in mind.

When delta got their last contract, they didn’t say “oh let’s take UA/AA/SWA rates, find the average, and call it a day.” The mindset of the legacy pilots is reflected perfectly in UA’s snap up clause, which provided pay parity with whatever a competitor got in their negotiations. Meanwhile, we ask for average, because many of our weaklings are just happy to be here. Our management doesn’t want to hire good pilots...they want weak-minded culture pilots who like to work for less, hence our grocery bagger to FO gateway, and our light twin to FO gateway flow. Why are we asking for an average of the top 6 airline rates when we have the highest margins and ability to be paid the highest in the industry? Too many weak minds here who just don’t get it and don’t know their worth. That’s why. Mgmt thanks you to your face for sacrificing to work here, then laughs at you all the way to the bank.

“Thank you, southerner, for rowing in the opposite direction of the pilot group, not showing unity with your fellow pilots by not wearing a lanyard or standing next to them on the picket line, being happy to make less money than your peers, and enabling us to make more money off of all your backs.” - sincerely, management.

1. I made no value judgements on the pay rates.

2. If you can't see the difference between a legacy flying 777s all over the world and JB flying small narrow bodies in barely three theatres, there's no hope for you.

3. See number 1.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 03:22 AM
You still dont get it do you? I hope someday you value yourself more than this.
Too many guys like you here. Shameful.:rolleyes:

The same 5 guys are here to shout down anyone who thinks slightly differently from them. That's what is shameful. I don't want a pilot group that is full of mindless robots. Do you? You certainly seem to...

PasserOGas
05-07-2018, 04:12 AM
1. I made no value judgements on the pay rates.

2. If you can't see the difference between a legacy flying 777s all over the world and JB flying small narrow bodies in barely three theatres, there's no hope for you.

3. See number 1.


Cool story. I get why a 777 captain would make more, but why is a DAL 320 pilot "above us" as you say? We are generating more profit/seat than he is. Is it the hat?

Also, does jetblew get a discount on hotels, fuel, heavy maint, new jets vs. DAL? After all they are "above us" so they should pay more for all those things right? Or is it just you that comes at a discount?

On a side note, keep not wearing the lanyard. At least it serves as a warning where you stand in this fight.

CaptCoolHand
05-07-2018, 04:19 AM
You still dont get it do you? I hope someday you value yourself more than this.
Too many guys like you here. Shameful.:rolleyes:

No he doesn’t get it and never will. Even in his last argument he’s trying to compare 777 with small narrow body...

We are arguing for maret rate barrow body and small narrow body pay.

Southerner thinks you should be compensated less even though you fly the same routes from the same airports. Jetblue makes on average 61% more per body in every seat then every other carrier but we should somehow be paid less...

BeatNavy
05-07-2018, 04:27 AM
1. I made no value judgements on the pay rates.

2. If you can't see the difference between a legacy flying 777s all over the world and JB flying small narrow bodies in barely three theatres, there's no hope for you.

3. See number 1.

JetBlue makes more profit per seat, more profit per pilot, has a better core product....and you still haven’t provided one good reason why a delta a320 pilot should be paid more than a jetblue a320 pilot. 777s? I’m not comparing 777 rates. And 777s flying over the world don’t matter when comparing a320 rates, or when comparing 717 rates to our e190 (let me guess, you’re the highest paid e190 pilot in the industry so you don’t want a raise). WE MAKE MORE PROFIT PER PILOT THAN DELTA, DESPITE THEIR HAVING 777s FLYING AROUND THE WORLD (among other business advantages).

Put another way, OUR A320 PILOTS MAKE MORE PROFIT FOR OUR COMPANY PER CAPITA THAN DELTA’S, YET GET PAID SIGNIFICANTLY LESS.

Again, why should their a320 pilots make more than our a320 pilots noting the above (it’s in caps this time since you keep failing to acknowledge it).

GuppyPuppy
05-07-2018, 04:33 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.



Who doesn’t think for themselves now?

Remind me again who the president was when the AA pilots went on strike and we're ordered back to work by said President? 1996 was it?

This company is run by a bunch of liberals...are they pro-union?

Big business is anti-union. Big business controls the politicians whether they are dems or GOP.

Gup

BeatNavy
05-07-2018, 04:52 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.



Who doesn’t think for themselves now?

This is incorrect. In this industry, with the extremely pro-company RLA under which we are bound and our seniority system that requires that you reset seniority/longevity every time you switch companies, it is the companies that have a significant advantage over labor. They know we can’t just up and quit if we are dissatisfied or underpaid, bc it would cost us too much with pay/seniority/longevity resets. Unions actually level the playing field for labor. I’m conservative and grew up generally anti-union, but in some instances it is a necessarily evil. This is one of them.

You won’t see that argument on foxnews, or any news outlet for that matter. So don’t bash people for their politics when it is unrelated to airline union membership.

queue
05-07-2018, 04:55 AM
I despise this attitude. You're essentially saying that unless someone feels the exact same way that you do, and behaves the exact same way that you do, they are scabs, which is pure crap.

Doing a stand-up PA or cleaning after non-revving is not the same as being a scab. Stop. You're both dividing the pilot group AND devaluing the meaning of the word "scab."


Southerner,

Division is a logical option if some pilots are performing activities that are detrimental to contract negotiations. Cleaning, for example, is just working for free while covering up a systemic problem of not hiring cleaners. Furthermore, it establishes a precedent that BJ pilots will do anything even though there was already a PEA in place that gave you the option to clean or not. Now, they made it a requirement with numerous ancillary texts and the infamous legally binding training. It just reaffirms what is possible without a contract. Will you, Southerner, be cleaning toilets next? If they can force you to clean, they can force you to do anything else. It's the principle and legalism of the matter that juicers aren't intelligent enough to comprehend.

I have no problem with division. Would you divide a safe vs unsafe pilot group? I would. Why use the word division in such a pre-conceived capacity? It's like the word critique. By itself it doesn't imply good or bad, ying or yang, negative or positive, but people assume it to be negative.

Bottom line is that the pilot group needs more unification insofar as demanding they be respected as professionals first, then as pilots seconds. Right now BJ pilots mostly act like low rent mercenaries without principles and standards.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-07-2018, 05:09 AM
1. I made no value judgements on the pay rates.

2. If you can't see the difference between a legacy flying 777s all over the world and JB flying small narrow bodies in barely three theatres, there's no hope for you.

3. See number 1.

Southerner, regarding #2 and previous regarding tantamount pay to Delta...

There is no legal or financial reason why BJ pilots can't be paid just like Delta. Have you ever been in management anywhere? (and I don't mean like being a CP or DO). Well, I have. Let me tell you that management works overtime to brainwash people into what you are saying.

You know very well that especially under fiduciary responsibility, the CEO can pay us Delta rates overnight as long as it's in the best interest of the company. Did you notice how in the past all the clueless juicers and most of the pilot group thought fiduciary meant keep pay low? That was management/owner brainwashing from many industries. I've previously provided many links proving it.

Please don't be the #1 apologist here by claiming that BJ pilots can't be paid the same as Delta.. that is a viewpoint that is propaganda, illogical, and not grounded in factual assumptions.

I blame people like you personally for the poor state of morale and respectability BJ pilots have.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-07-2018, 05:13 AM
The same 5 guys are here to shout down anyone who thinks slightly differently from them. That's what is shameful. I don't want a pilot group that is full of mindless robots. Do you? You certainly seem to...

What's wrong with talking about it?

May the better argument win.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-07-2018, 05:27 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.

Who doesn’t think for themselves now?

I do think for myself. That's why I've informed myself to know that the left-right paradigm is a false one. There's the establishment and there's everyone else. The establish left and right are anti-anything that benefits the middle class. However the establishment left is more dangerous because they are Marxists that believe the state/greater good is more important than the individual. At least the right claims they care more about the individual, although they rarely follow through unless you have independent thinkers like Ron Paul and Trey Goudy.

Who supported and helped the KKK get established... the Democrats. Read the documents in the national archives.

Which cities today are the poorest and have miles of homeless camps? Democrat run cities.

And you realize that the Nazis are left-wing right? Nazi = National Socialism.

However I do agree that the establishment "right" is anti-union and that bothers me. We have RINO's that are also my sworn enemy. I wish we didn't *need* unions but the RLA forces us strictly from a legal response. Without it, we could be far more effective literally overnight. However, if we must have the RLA, it needs to be rewritten to be more employee friendly instead of the business friendly state it is in now.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-07-2018, 05:35 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.

Who doesn’t think for themselves now?

Oh yeah.. fair pay. The reason we don't get paid like Delta is strictly because WE don't value ourselves the same. The problem is not Capitalism, the problem is that we don't make ourselves a market force the way we are supposed to. Like I said before, BJ will pay for fuel at whatever cost because they made themselves too valuable. We have failed to do so. What if all pilots came with a standard minimum contract that demanded equal pay for A32X's across any airline? Nothing is stopping us from making that a reality. We merely lack the political will amongst ourselves.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

RiddleEagle18
05-07-2018, 05:37 AM
Alaska/Virgin is our closest peer in many ways. Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant is below us in terms of business model and customer. Delta/AA/United is above us.



Pilots are in demand, and that fact is driving up the pay rates across the industry. It's generally a bad idea to speak on a public forum about what would get a yes vote.



Just want to quote this again Incase anyone still has doubts on where southerner’s loyalties lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bozo the pilot
05-07-2018, 06:51 AM
The same 5 guys are here to shout down anyone who thinks slightly differently from them. That's what is shameful. I don't want a pilot group that is full of mindless robots. Do you? You certainly seem to...

Not shutting anything down- Just pointing out the asinine logic. We're not comparing 777 pilots and us- we're comparing airbus rates/work rules and insurance. You are a company defending robot- WHY Southerner?

Bozo the pilot
05-07-2018, 06:52 AM
Dude. You’ve been watching way too much fox nazi news.

You realize that conservatives are against unions. Against fair pay... and so on and so on.



Who doesn’t think for themselves now?
You- you're too busy watching cable news:D

Southerner
05-07-2018, 06:55 AM
Just want to quote this again Incase anyone still has doubts on where southerner’s loyalties lie.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ummm. Do you not see the difference between a world-wide carrier and JetBlue? I didn't say anything about pay. I simply grouped our airline with those who are most like us.

You guys are the ones who are associating that with pay.

BeatNavy
05-07-2018, 07:08 AM
Ummm. Do you not see the difference between a world-wide carrier and JetBlue? I didn't say anything about pay. I simply grouped our airline with those who are most like us.

You guys are the ones who are associating that with pay.

Originally Posted by Southerner
Alaska/Virgin is our closest peer in many ways. Spirit/Frontier/Allegiant is below us in terms of business model and customer. Delta/AA/United is above us.

What do delta A320/A321 pilots do that JetBlue A320/A321 pilots not do? If jetblue A320 pilots bring in more profit per flight than delta A320 pilots, and JetBlue can afford to pay us the same as delta’s airbus pilots and still remain profitable and competitive, why should we accept a dollar less? You still haven’t answered that.

PotatoChip
05-07-2018, 07:09 AM
Ummm. Do you not see the difference between a world-wide carrier and JetBlue? I didn't say anything about pay. I simply grouped our airline with those who are most like us.

You guys are the ones who are associating that with pay.

Doesn’t stop Southwest for compensating their pilots very well. So no, I don’t see the difference.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 07:10 AM
What do delta A320/A321 pilots do that JetBlue A320/A321 pilots not do? If jetblue A320 pilots bring in more profit per flight than delta A320 pilots, and JetBlue can afford to pay us the same as delta’s airbus pilots and still remain profitable and competitive, why should we accept a dollar less? You still haven’t answered that.

I didn't say they should be paid more. I didn't say that we should be paid less. You assumed that. I don't accept responsibility for your own biases.

BlueJetDork
05-07-2018, 07:16 AM
Ummm. Do you not see the difference between a world-wide carrier and JetBlue?

The difference between us and DAL? A few months!

Alaska rates lag DAL A320 Family rates by a few months.

That is the difference between a 'world-wide carrier' and us.

Alaska lags SWA rates by few months which lag DAL rate by a couple of months.

IOW the rates are basically the same over a 5 year period. The timing of the step is the only difference between 'world-wide carrier' and the "airline(s)" like us.

Blue Dude
05-07-2018, 07:19 AM
I didn't say they should be paid more. I didn't say that we should be paid less. You assumed that. I don't accept responsibility for your own biases.

Your post putting Delta, etc "above" us was in direct response to a question about contract peers. Pay is a very significant component for contract comparison, so it's not "bias" to conclude that you're arguing that we shouldn't be paid as well as an airline that's "above" us. Might you one day take your own side in an argument?

PasserOGas
05-07-2018, 07:20 AM
I didn't say they should be paid more. I didn't say that we should be paid less. You assumed that. I don't accept responsibility for your own biases.

Oh please. You know what you said, and have said on here for years. Paraphrasing "If you disagree that we should get paid less, then you are engaging in groupthink! I only say we should get paid less to offer an alternative viewpoint! I don't wear my lanyard because my neck lacks a spine!"

BlueJetDork
05-07-2018, 07:24 AM
Oh ... and a 1% COLA difference.

A few months and a 1% COLA difference.

So pretty much the same.

BeatNavy
05-07-2018, 07:32 AM
I didn't say they should be paid more. I didn't say that we should be paid less. You assumed that. I don't accept responsibility for your own biases.

The average of delta’s A321, A320, and 737 rates are $271 an hour, going to $282 an hour in 7 months. The average of their CS100 and 717 rates are $250, going to $260 in 7 months. Their 110 seaters pay on average 8% less than their airbus, despite having 50+ fewer seats. And furthermore, their profit sharing payout was 15% of earnings—ours was what, 2%? Their 401k DC is also significantly higher. But let me guess, you’ll just happy to make $200 a month doing the same thing as they do, while making your overlords more money than those “worldwide” delta guys. Are you willing to work for less than them?

BlueJetDork
05-07-2018, 07:49 AM
The average of delta’s A321, A320, and 737 rates are $271 an hour, going to $282 an hour in 7 months.
ALPA April Contract Comparison and Airline Pilot Central have different numbers.

I see ALPA April Contract Comparison and DAL at $263.XX until Jan 2019 and then a bump of 4% to $274.XX

hilltopflyer
05-07-2018, 07:51 AM
The average of delta’s A321, A320, and 737 rates are $271 an hour, going to $282 an hour in 7 months. The average of their CS100 and 717 rates are $250, going to $260 in 7 months. Their 110 seaters pay on average 8% less than their airbus, despite having 50+ fewer seats. And furthermore, their profit sharing payout was 15% of earnings—ours was what, 2%? Their 401k DC is also significantly higher. But let me guess, you’ll just happy to make $200 a month doing the same thing as they do, while making your overlords more money than those “worldwide” delta guys. Are you willing to work for less than them?

Worldwide. If I'm not mistaken delta is almost turning into a national airline with joint venture alliances doing the wide body
Flying. Most of their flying is airbuses. So what is southernerns argument again?

Southerner
05-07-2018, 07:52 AM
Your post putting Delta, etc "above" us was in direct response to a question about contract peers. Pay is a very significant component for contract comparison, so it's not "bias" to conclude that you're arguing that we shouldn't be paid as well as an airline that's "above" us. Might you one day take your own side in an argument?

I don't believe in "peers" with regard to pay. We get paid what we can negotiate, and part of what determines what we can negotiate is based on what other A320 pilots are being paid.

But in terms of what our "peers" are Alaska and SWA are closest. You're reading too much into that response.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 07:56 AM
Oh please. You know what you said, and have said on here for years. Paraphrasing "If you disagree that we should get paid less, then you are engaging in groupthink! I only say we should get paid less to offer an alternative viewpoint! I don't wear my lanyard because my neck lacks a spine!"

I'm fairly certain that I've never stated publicly what my philosophy on pay is, or what I think is a good number. Not gonna start today, but I will say that you guys are incorrect about my stance. You assume quite a bit for not knowing anything about my positions.

BlueJetDork
05-07-2018, 07:57 AM
But in terms of what our "peers" are Alaska and SWA are closest. You're reading too much into that response.

Cool then DAL rates it is with just a few months of lag.

BeatNavy
05-07-2018, 08:10 AM
ALPA April Contract Comparison and Airline Pilot Central have different numbers.

I see ALPA April Contract Comparison and DAL at $263.XX until Jan 2019 and then a bump of 4% to $274.XX

That is delta’s A320 rate. They have a higher A321 and 737 rates ($275/$273 respectively). I averaged all delta A32X/737 rates for my delta comparison.

264+273+275=812 812/3=270.67 270.67*1.04=281

queue
05-07-2018, 08:23 AM
I'm fairly certain that I've never stated publicly what my philosophy on pay is, or what I think is a good number. Not gonna start today, but I will say that you guys are incorrect about my stance. You assume quite a bit for not knowing anything about my positions.

You can wordsmith all day but the bottom line is that your argument is fundamentally the same as those who don't respect pilot pay and professionalism. The peer tier argument is not applicable to deserved pay rates for the job we do and on the equipment we fly. If we can offer world class 1st class beyond our peers, we can get paid for doing equal work, at a minimum. Peer comparisons could be applied to ammenities for pax but not for our pay. We are just as professional as anyone else.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 08:24 AM
You can wordsmith all day but the bottom line is that your argument is fundamentally the same as those who don't respect pilot pay and professionalism. The peer tier argument is not applicable to deserved pay rates for the job we do and on the equipment we fly. If we can offer world class 1st class beyond our peers, we can get paid for doing equal work, at a minimum. Peer comparisons could be applied to ammenities for pax but not for our pay. We are just as professional as anyone else.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Never said anything about pay.

BlueJetDork
05-07-2018, 08:48 AM
That is delta’s A320 rate. They have a higher A321 and 737 rates ($275/$273 respectively). I averaged all delta A32X/737 rates for my delta comparison.

264+273+275=812 812/3=270.67 270.67*1.04=281

Got it.

The weighted average jives with the average.

SWA rates lag DAL average rate by about a year.

Industry leading rates a year after DAL. Wonder if that is a deal killer?

queue
05-07-2018, 08:56 AM
Never said anything about pay.

So you don't think we can negotiate beyond our peer grouping?

And who defines this peer group? What does the grouping apply to? Services offered, ticket cost, pilot pay, pilot work rules, size of airplane? Clearly you have some expectation of applicability to the term peer or else you wouldn't have used it.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 09:45 AM
So you don't think we can negotiate beyond our peer grouping?

And who defines this peer group? What does the grouping apply to? Services offered, ticket cost, pilot pay, pilot work rules, size of airplane? Clearly you have some expectation of applicability to the term peer or else you wouldn't have used it.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

The dude asked what our peers are. We are a non-ULCC/ that flies narrow body aircraft mostly domestically with some South American/Caribbean. The airlines that most closely match this description are SouthWest and Alaska.

I made no value judgements, and implied nothing about pay/negotiations.

Blue Dude
05-07-2018, 10:04 AM
The dude asked what our peers are. We are a non-ULCC/ that flies narrow body aircraft mostly domestically with some South American/Caribbean. The airlines that most closely match this description are SouthWest and Alaska.

I made no value judgements, and implied nothing about pay/negotiations.

Complete bullpucky. An absolute lie. The post that you responded to and directly quoted follows:

Referencing RVR's ALPA link on page 11.

It seems that a contract will need to be 'industry leading' to be considered a 'success' relative to peer airlines. This would keep the pilots on par with these other airlines, whose current contracts are approaching their end.

Which airlines are your peers. I know that you guys do at least as good a job as, for example, a Delta pilot. So is that your peer, and can the company's business model sustain that comparison.

Having a reasonable expectation will make a new contract more acceptable.

It was about nothing other than peers with regard to pay/negotiations. By quoting this post and responding to it, you more than merely implied. Go ahead and backpedal, but your true colors keep showing themselves.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 12:14 PM
Complete bullpucky. An absolute lie. The post that you responded to and directly quoted follows:



It was about nothing other than peers with regard to pay/negotiations. By quoting this post and responding to it, you more than merely implied. Go ahead and backpedal, but your true colors keep showing themselves.

I'm not packpedaling. When I write a sentence, you should take the words for exactly what they say, and leave your own interpretations out of it. If you can't see that your own biases are coloring how you read that paragraph, I don't know what else to say to you.

I said that we are most like Alaska. We are between the ULCC and the other Legacies. That's a statement of fact.

You are assigning meaning to my response that isn't there. I will not state my opinions on negotiations or what is acceptable on this site.

Blue Dude
05-07-2018, 12:39 PM
You can't quote a message, reply to it, then claim that your reply was unrelated to the quote, and that any inference of a connection reflects bias. It would be biased to take your comments out of context, not to quote you accurately in context.

Keep backpedaling. Actually, don't bother. We've already established that pretty much anything you say can't be relied upon to have any commonly accepted meaning.

say again
05-07-2018, 12:49 PM
Our model may be similar to Alaska/VA, but our peers are that of DAL, AA, UAL, SWA. Don't confuse/compare the 2.

slimothy
05-07-2018, 12:55 PM
South, sometimes when absolutely everybody disagrees with, it’s not because they are participating in group think, it’s because you are wrong. Food for thought.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 12:58 PM
You can't quote a message, reply to it, then claim that your reply was unrelated to the quote, and that any inference of a connection reflects bias. It would be biased to take your comments out of context, not to quote you accurately in context.

Keep backpedaling. Actually, don't bother. We've already established that pretty much anything you say can't be relied upon to have any commonly accepted meaning.

Read my post again. I simply stated what our peer airline's are. The very next paragraph addresses the negotiation aspect, which I said is bad to discuss publicly.

Do you not see how your own bias is coloring your interpretations? I made no value judgements, and I intentionally remained neutral with regard to negotiations.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 01:09 PM
Our model may be similar to Alaska/VA, but our peers are that of DAL, AA, UAL, SWA. Don't confuse/compare the 2.

If you remove the airline business model from consideration, I see zero difference in any airline that operates an A320. There's no such thing as a "peer" without regard to business model.

Again, I'm not addressing what that means for pay. I'm intentionally remaining publicly agnostic on that topic, as we all should.

atrdriver
05-07-2018, 01:12 PM
Read my post again. I simply stated what our peer airline's are. The very next paragraph addresses the negotiation aspect, which I said is bad to discuss publicly.

Do you not see how your own bias is coloring your interpretations? I made no value judgements, and I intentionally remained neutral with regard to negotiations.

If you were pro-pilot, you would state as much. But you go out of your way to antagonize JB pilots and "intentionally remain neutral."

That says all we need to know about whose side you're on.

Hopefully the next few pages aren't distracted by mgmt trolling. Moving on.....

Southerner
05-07-2018, 01:24 PM
If you were pro-pilot, you would state as much. But you go out of your way to antagonize JB pilots and "intentionally remain neutral."

That says all we need to know about whose side you're on.

Hopefully the next few pages aren't distracted by mgmt trolling. Moving on.....

I am pro-pilot. If you pull me aside at a bar on an overnight, I'll be happy to share my deal-breakers, as I have done on the ALPA surveys. But I'm not in favor of negotiating in public. Period.

Bluedriver
05-07-2018, 07:19 PM
Above us in what way? Are you referring to the “where we fit into the industry” slide they like to show? Because the way I see it, we have a much higher profit per passenger (and per pilot) than DL/AA/UA, and our hourly rate should reflect that. What is better about their business model, product, or customer that correlates to and commands a higher pilot pay rate? They have more robust networks, both dom/intl, more first class seats, and more business travelers due to their better network. And despite having that, as well as cheap regional feed to help their bottom line, they still have less profit per seat than us. And we provide more legroom, free WiFi, and debatably (less so these days) a better customer experience. Are you suggesting we should continue to subsidize our already higher margins with substandard pilot pay? Why?

I challenge you to come up with one good reason a jetblue A320 pilot should make less than a delta A320 pilot, keeping the above in mind.

When delta got their last contract, they didn’t say “oh let’s take UA/AA/SWA rates, find the average, and call it a day.” The mindset of the legacy pilots is reflected perfectly in UA’s snap up clause, which provided pay parity with whatever a competitor got in their negotiations. Meanwhile, we ask for average, because many of our weaklings are just happy to be here. Our management doesn’t want to hire good pilots...they want weak-minded culture pilots who like to work for less, hence our grocery bagger to FO gateway, and our light twin to FO gateway flow. Why are we asking for an average of the top 6 airline rates when we have the highest margins and ability to be paid the highest in the industry? Too many weak minds here who just don’t get it and don’t know their worth. That’s why. Mgmt thanks you to your face for sacrificing to work here, then laughs at you all the way to the bank.

“Thank you, southerner, for rowing in the opposite direction of the pilot group, not showing unity with your fellow pilots by not wearing a lanyard or standing next to them on the picket line, being happy to make less money than your peers, and enabling us to make more money off of all your backs.” - sincerely, management.

Amazingly well said. Southerner is dripping his typical trash from his pie hole.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 07:29 PM
Amazingly well said. Southerner is dripping his typical trash from his pie hole.

Oh look, the village idiot is back. I'll be sure to use little words so you have a chance at comprehension.

(The poor kid never learned how to read.)

Bluedriver
05-07-2018, 07:34 PM
Oh look, the village idiot is back. I'll be sure to use little words so you have a chance at comprehension.

(The poor kid never learned how to read.)

Your positions seem highly respected these days.

But I know, as you've told us all before, literally, you are better at evaluating reality than most of us.

We're all wrong but Southerner!

Southerner
05-07-2018, 07:39 PM
Your positions seem highly respected these days.

But I know, as you've told us all before, literally, you are better at evaluating reality than most of us.

We're all wrong but Southerner!

I don't know what you think you're arguing against. I haven't stated a position on anything. People have put up a straw man, and incorrectly assigned it as my position.

queue
05-07-2018, 08:00 PM
I don't know what you think you're arguing against. I haven't stated a position on anything. People have put up a straw man, and incorrectly assigned it as my position.

Southerner, should we accept pay rates and a work rule contract lesser than the top 4 airlines in the US?




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
05-07-2018, 08:03 PM
Southerner, should we accept pay rates and a work rule contract lesser than the top 4 airlines in the US?




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

I'm not going to negotiate in public dude. If you want to speak in private, I'll tell you what I put into the ALPA survey as my deal breakers.

Bluedriver
05-08-2018, 04:17 AM
I don't know what you think you're arguing against. I haven't stated a position on anything. People have put up a straw man, and incorrectly assigned it as my position.

Right, we've ALL just misinterpreted you. You've done something, actually MANY things that caused it, but I know we are the ones that are wrong about you.

Couldn't be you.

Bluedriver
05-08-2018, 04:21 AM
I'm not going to negotiate in public dude. If you want to speak in private, I'll tell you what I put into the ALPA survey as my deal breakers.

There is only ONE reason not to answer Q's direct and simple question:

Your answer could only be considered sensitive if it gives away your position as "We should accept less than the big 4 because stuff".

For the rest of us, the simple answer is NO, and saying we should not accept less than the big 4 is not negotiating in public, at least not in any way that could compromise our position.

Once again, you've said all we need hear to know your position.

Southerner
05-08-2018, 04:40 AM
Right, we've ALL just misinterpreted you. You've done something, actually MANY things that caused it, but I know we are the ones that are wrong about you.

Couldn't be you.

Not all, just those with an axe to grind.

Southerner
05-08-2018, 04:43 AM
There is only ONE reason not to answer Q's direct and simple question:

Your answer could only be considered sensitive if it gives away your position as "We should accept less than the big 4 because stuff".

For the rest of us, the simple answer is NO, and saying we should not accept less than the big 4 is not negotiating in public, at least not in any way that could compromise our position.

Once again, you've said all we need hear to know your position.

Have you ever held a position on principle? You know, not changed your answer due to pressure because you hold it for a reason? I do not believe that we should discuss in any way what our positions should be on a public forum, which is why I refuse to say anything about it publicly.

I sent a PM to Queue and ATRDriver with what I submitted to ALPA on the survey. I'm not sending that to you because I have zero respect for you as a person or colleague.

654G
05-08-2018, 07:27 AM
I posted my last question on page 15. Since then the thread has reached page 21, and the vast majority of that has been a group of people vilifying one other person.

Your dislike for the guy’s opinion became crystal clear by page 16 (and on other threads), and the reasons even more so – after a while it just denigrates your own stature, and ideas, among those of use who read, and value the practical, and non-emotional posts.

Hopefully your service with the company will be rewarded with the contract you deserve – you operate largely on the eastern corridor, with all of the challenges that entails. That is deserving of the highest level of compensation.

As for what your fellow pilots think merits a ‘yes’ vote? I worked for a company with which we were negotiating our first contract. I, and a little less than 50% of my fellow pilots voted against it, so it passed. One of those who voted for the contract told us we shouldn’t be doing this job if we didn’t have a wife who had good health insurance (he had both). Of course up until then, we didn’t pay any premium for health insurance, and we knew that once that door was opened, it would only open wider. People see the world as it works for them, and that doesn’t mean it’s logical, or rational, or fitting for the long-term benefit of everyone.

The divisive state of the country’s politics should make that aspect of human nature patently clear.

I sincerely appreciate the information that people provided. A little disappointed that, 21 pages later, a realistic average figure of what someone might expect to take home, in year 1 and 2, with all of the bells and whistles benefits, is still illusive.

The ALPA comparison (combined with the W2) was very helpful and, at lower pay levels, you really need the insurance and other options, in case you or your family have a misfortune. Bit of a catch 22 – you need the protection at the lower pay level, but you can’t really afford it. That’s the elephant in the room for those of us contemplating coming aboard.

Finally, I have a great deal of respect for your pilot group, after having read the different threads over the last while. You work in the toughest conditions, the most expensive parts of the country, the most challenging airspace. Reading of the 2 hour reserve call out – it was replied to by people who made the drive to work imaginable, including the tolls.

The posts regarding red eyes were vivid – I’ve done my fair share of them over the years, and they are a killer.

PasserOGas
05-08-2018, 07:47 AM
I posted my last question on page 15. Since then the thread has reached page 21, and the vast majority of that has been a group of people vilifying one other person.

Your dislike for the guy’s opinion became crystal clear by page 16 (and on other threads), and the reasons even more so – after a while it just denigrates your own stature, and ideas, among those of use who read, and value the practical, and non-emotional posts.

Hopefully your service with the company will be rewarded with the contract you deserve – you operate largely on the eastern corridor, with all of the challenges that entails. That is deserving of the highest level of compensation.

As for what your fellow pilots think merits a ‘yes’ vote? I worked for a company with which we were negotiating our first contract. I, and a little less than 50% of my fellow pilots voted against it, so it passed. One of those who voted for the contract told us we shouldn’t be doing this job if we didn’t have a wife who had good health insurance (he had both). Of course up until then, we didn’t pay any premium for health insurance, and we knew that once that door was opened, it would only open wider. People see the world as it works for them, and that doesn’t mean it’s logical, or rational, or fitting for the long-term benefit of everyone.

The divisive state of the country’s politics should make that aspect of human nature patently clear.

I sincerely appreciate the information that people provided. A little disappointed that, 21 pages later, a realistic average figure of what someone might expect to take home, in year 1 and 2, with all of the bells and whistles benefits, is still illusive.

The ALPA comparison (combined with the W2) was very helpful and, at lower pay levels, you really need the insurance and other options, in case you or your family have a misfortune. Bit of a catch 22 – you need the protection at the lower pay level, but you can’t really afford it. That’s the elephant in the room for those of us contemplating coming aboard.

Finally, I have a great deal of respect for your pilot group, after having read the different threads over the last while. You work in the toughest conditions, the most expensive parts of the country, the most challenging airspace. Reading of the 2 hour reserve call out – it was replied to by people who made the drive to work imaginable, including the tolls.

The posts regarding red eyes were vivid – I’ve done my fair share of them over the years, and they are a killer.

Sounds like you have all the answers. Bye.

aldonite7667
05-08-2018, 08:20 AM
I posted my last question on page 15. Since then the thread has reached page 21, and the vast majority of that has been a group of people vilifying one other person.

Your dislike for the guy’s opinion became crystal clear by page 16 (and on other threads), and the reasons even more so – after a while it just denigrates your own stature, and ideas, among those of use who read, and value the practical, and non-emotional posts.

Hopefully your service with the company will be rewarded with the contract you deserve – you operate largely on the eastern corridor, with all of the challenges that entails. That is deserving of the highest level of compensation.

As for what your fellow pilots think merits a ‘yes’ vote? I worked for a company with which we were negotiating our first contract. I, and a little less than 50% of my fellow pilots voted against it, so it passed. One of those who voted for the contract told us we shouldn’t be doing this job if we didn’t have a wife who had good health insurance (he had both). Of course up until then, we didn’t pay any premium for health insurance, and we knew that once that door was opened, it would only open wider. People see the world as it works for them, and that doesn’t mean it’s logical, or rational, or fitting for the long-term benefit of everyone.

The divisive state of the country’s politics should make that aspect of human nature patently clear.

I sincerely appreciate the information that people provided. A little disappointed that, 21 pages later, a realistic average figure of what someone might expect to take home, in year 1 and 2, with all of the bells and whistles benefits, is still illusive.

The ALPA comparison (combined with the W2) was very helpful and, at lower pay levels, you really need the insurance and other options, in case you or your family have a misfortune. Bit of a catch 22 – you need the protection at the lower pay level, but you can’t really afford it. That’s the elephant in the room for those of us contemplating coming aboard.

Finally, I have a great deal of respect for your pilot group, after having read the different threads over the last while. You work in the toughest conditions, the most expensive parts of the country, the most challenging airspace. Reading of the 2 hour reserve call out – it was replied to by people who made the drive to work imaginable, including the tolls.

The posts regarding red eyes were vivid – I’ve done my fair share of them over the years, and they are a killer.

It’s a message board. People disagree and get snarky. That’s ok. If it hurts too much I think bubble guppies is on.

Bluedriver
05-08-2018, 08:39 AM
Have you ever held a position on principle? You know, not changed your answer due to pressure because you hold it for a reason? I do not believe that we should discuss in any way what our positions should be on a public forum, which is why I refuse to say anything about it publicly.

I sent a PM to Queue and ATRDriver with what I submitted to ALPA on the survey. I'm not sending that to you because I have zero respect for you as a person or colleague.

The question was do you think we should accept less than the top 4 in pay and work rules. Your silence is literally splitting my ear drums.

The rest of us just say no, we shouldn't.

I know, reasons.

And I wouldn't share a cold beer with you out of a cooler full if you were on fire.

Clear?

Southerner
05-08-2018, 09:36 AM
The question was do you think we should accept less than the top 4 in pay and work rules. Your silence is literally splitting my ear drums.

The rest of us just say no, we shouldn't.

I know, reasons.

And I wouldn't share a cold beer with you out of a cooler full if you were on fire.

Clear?

I know what you say publicly. You shouldn't say anything publicly. If you weren't such a moron, I would have a non-public discussion with you. Instead, I'm choosing to ignore you from now on. ✌️✌️

Bluedriver
05-08-2018, 09:45 AM
I know what you say publicly. You shouldn't say anything publicly. If you weren't such a moron, I would have a non-public discussion with you. Instead, I'm choosing to ignore you from now on. ✌️✌️

Go play with matches and premium unleaded.

Gordie H
05-08-2018, 04:34 PM
And I wouldn't share a cold beer with you out of a cooler full if you were on fire.
Funny you choose this analogy…..I swear someone used a very similar (yet distinctly different) analogy a few posts back but I weirdly don’t see it anymore. Oh well, guess it was just my imagination….

Gearswinger
05-09-2018, 03:40 AM
Is the original poster still pumped about joining this circle jerk of dysfunction?



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