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View Full Version : What am I doing wrong?


Santini
04-26-2018, 07:41 PM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.


Snuffaluffagus
04-26-2018, 07:51 PM
Have you successfully landed the space shuttle on an aircraft carrier at night at least 10 times? If so, you may just get an interview OTS.

Santini
04-26-2018, 07:54 PM
Have you successfully landed the space shuttle on an aircraft carrier at night at least 10 times? If so, you may just get an interview OTS.


I don’t know whether to laugh or cry with this one.


kingairfun
04-26-2018, 07:57 PM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.

My guess.....

Currently part 91/135... nothing wrong with that but out of sheer numbers 121 gets more results.

And 7500hrs is about average..many from the lost decade are over 10,000 with thousands more PIC. Your times are competative, but so are alot of others.

I think AA also has a large flow deal that requires a lot of slots be made avail. to certain applicants.

Santini
04-26-2018, 07:59 PM
My guess.....

Currently part 91/135

And 7500hrs is about average..many from the lost decade are over 10,000 with thousands more PIC. Your times are competative, but so are alot of others.

I think AA also has a large flow deal that requires a lot of slots be made avail. to certain applicants.

So I’d have to go back to 121 to get a shot? Don’t think I can take that haircut, unfortunately. My three-plus years in 121 doesn’t count?

I should open a pawn shop or something. Ha ha.

SactisbonesBJ
04-26-2018, 10:41 PM
You're too male and too pale

Sniper66
04-26-2018, 11:52 PM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.






Networking is the key

A330FoodCritic
04-27-2018, 12:59 AM
You're too male and too pale

https://www.alliedpilots.org/Committees/Membership/NewHire

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

atpcliff
04-27-2018, 02:18 AM
It may help to go somewhere else first, like Kalitta, Omni, etc. Getting a new type rating, big jet, and intntl experience has helped a LOT of pilots get to where they want to go.

PSA, Piedmont, Envoy have direct flow through to AA...you just have to wait.

TallFlyer
04-27-2018, 03:56 AM
It may help to go somewhere else first, like Kalitta, Omni, etc. Getting a new type rating, big jet, and intntl experience has helped a LOT of pilots get to where they want to go.



PSA, Piedmont, Envoy have direct flow through to AA...you just have to wait.



Also very quick upgrade opportunities, and several hired outside the flow from PSA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

full of luv
04-27-2018, 05:10 AM
You're too male and too pale

Maybe you can re-classify yourself as a transitioned female to male?

It’s frustrating for sure waiting to just get a shot!

R57 relay
04-27-2018, 05:15 AM
I think it’s just the odds. We hire most of pilots from flow agreements and the military, so the rest of the pie is tiny.

My cousin ran into the same thing here. Ended up going to SW then FedEx.

Boogerface
04-27-2018, 05:23 AM
How many LORs do you have? How many internals do you have? How much volunteer time do you do? Are you a member of WIA and OBAP and go to those job fairs every year? For non-military OTS hires, these seem to be the biggest factors for someone with your TT. That being said...there's not a lot of non-mil OTS hires. My class was 50% flow-throughs, and of the other 50%, 90% was military. Not saying it's impossible, but with maybe 10 non-mil OTS hires a month on average, you gotta be better than the other 1000s of applicants that AA has on file. Be a pest - go to EVERY job fair, make calls, make AA know how badly you want it.

kme9418
04-27-2018, 05:33 AM
I've heard check airman and/or sim instructor helps. There was an OTS guy in my class from Spirit who was a sim instructor. Also, don't limit your options. I had a very competitive app in with my "previous first choice" for years and heard nothing even during robust hiring when all my friends were getting called. Now that I'm at AA, I know it's where I'm supposed to be and I don't intend to leave. Your "future first choice" might be waiting for you somewhere else that isn't on your radar right now. Best of luck to you...I know it can be puzzling.

Otterbox
04-27-2018, 05:37 AM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.

Non flow through, non military pilots only make up about 10% of AAs new hire classes.

Your TT is probably good enough, but how recently have you beefed up your resume with additional training (upgraded/new type/check airman/ comapny instructor etc.) and extra curriculars like community involvement, membership of an AA favorable group?

From the non flow 121 side of the house it looks like LCA experience or membership to an AA preferred group the most common attributes of the folks I know who got picked up as OTS hires at AA. The networking piece is also important as well...

Sliceback
04-27-2018, 06:45 AM
When’s the last time you went through a full training course? New type rating or upgrading from FO to CA in the same type. In the past 5 (?) yrs was the cutoff.

AA’s civilian OTS hiring last year was 9%.

DL published avg civilian hiring data - 7600 TT and 4100 PIC.

Your resume, in a competitive market, is dead center average.

Santini
04-27-2018, 08:59 AM
It may help to go somewhere else first, like Kalitta, Omni, etc. Getting a new type rating, big jet, and intntl experience has helped a LOT of pilots get to where they want to go.

PSA, Piedmont, Envoy have direct flow through to AA...you just have to wait.


Half a dozen type ratings, two years overseas flying into places a lot of people can’t pronounce, more crossings than I can count, etc.

I worry that my application is messed up and I’ll never know it.

Someone mentioned networking. All the guys I know are as confused by the process as I am. One of my friends just got to United, for example, yet for a couple years all his FOs were upgrading then getting the call instead of him.

Thanks all.

Santini
04-27-2018, 09:00 AM
I think it’s just the odds. We hire most of pilots from flow agreements and the military, so the rest of the pie is tiny.

My cousin ran into the same thing here. Ended up going to SW then FedEx.

Got it. Maybe United is a better shot.

Thanks.

Santini
04-27-2018, 09:16 AM
Thanks all for the input.

Yeah I do the community involvement stuff, etc. I do that legitimately, not to get a job. Have not done the job fair thing yet. When’s the next one in Dallas or Houston? Does it matter which one?

Networking... I don’t even know enough folks at AA to come close on internals based on what I’ve read. Most of the people I know are SWA and United.

Well, I guess I can just ride it out here for awhile longer. I’m not going broke or anything, but in ten years I’d rather be on the AA pay scale.

Sliceback
04-27-2018, 09:27 AM
How long have you been in your current seat?

Santini
04-27-2018, 09:32 AM
How long have you been in your current seat?

Well over that five years someone mentioned above. Been left seat qualified almost exclusively for 15 years come to think of it (multiple types in that time). Was a Line Training Captain in my overseas gig. Not that it seems to matter much being it wasn’t 121. :/

I did the overseas thing to enhance my resume’ and check a box I felt I needed.

flydc
04-27-2018, 09:38 AM
- Job fairs. Go to as many as possible. Make sure the recruiters recognize your face.
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.
- Any positions in safety, training, union, recruiting
- Volunteer experience
- Internal recommendations
- Update your app every 2 weeks
- Hire a professional to go through your applications

Santini
04-27-2018, 09:55 AM
- Job fairs. Go to as many as possible. Make sure the recruiters recognize your face.
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.
- Any positions in safety, training, union, recruiting
- Volunteer experience
- Internal recommendations
- Update your app every 2 weeks
- Hire a professional to go through your applications

“Support for diversity.” Ugh. Not sure I’m willing to sell my soul that far. No, I’m not bigoted, it’s just that diversity is becoming code for reverse discrimination. Hire the right person. Color/gender is not relevant.

But I guess one has to play the game...

WIA makes sense in a way. My teenager is toying with the idea of becoming a pilot. She might get to AA before I do, too. Lol.


Thanks for the input. That pawn shop idea is looking better every day.

TiredSoul
04-27-2018, 10:02 AM
- Job fairs. Go to as many as possible. Make sure the recruiters recognize your face.
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.
- Any positions in safety, training, union, recruiting
- Volunteer experience

This is getting ridiculous.
You’re not running for office.

Slaphappy
04-27-2018, 11:18 AM
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.


1984 Double plus good.

flydc
04-27-2018, 12:12 PM
“Support for diversity.” Ugh. Not sure I’m willing to sell my soul that far. No, I’m not bigoted, it’s just that diversity is becoming code for reverse discrimination. Hire the right person. Color/gender is not relevant.

Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

Santini
04-27-2018, 12:14 PM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

*Chortle*

:D

justfun
04-27-2018, 01:14 PM
I think that diversity and inclusion is over used at AA. Why pigeon hole people into different categories? Just hire the folks that meet the standards instead of using other criteria. Our company is too PC. That is if you are a WASP then you are a target. Not everyone here is buying into PC stuff that is being pushed our way. Yet people are still treated with respect and allowed to do the job that they are qualified to do.
Don't let flydc comments scare you away.

Ispeakjive
04-27-2018, 01:17 PM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.

Yes, there are services out there that you can contact. The fact that you are asking the questions suggests to me that you have not done your due diligence to ensure a tight package.

BobbyLeeSwagger
04-27-2018, 01:25 PM
I think that diversity and inclusion is over used at AA. ...... Not everyone here is buying into PC stuff that is being pushed our way. Yet people are still treated with respect and allowed to do the job that they are qualified to do.
Don't let flydc comments scare you away.

Yeah no kidding.. under AA culture on the link:

"So we must work to recruit, develop, retain and engage the very best people – those with unique perspectives and ways of thinking who can help us become the global leader we’re poised to be."

I think in context it is obvious what he means... and.. Wow. So are the very best people those who think the same way? Or does AA diversity include those who think differently lol. It's such a self-defeating philosophy. Can we just fly planes and take care of each other and the customer?

Otterbox
04-27-2018, 01:40 PM
I think that diversity and inclusion is over used at AA. Why pigeon hole people into different categories? Just hire the folks that meet the standards instead of using other criteria. Our company is too PC. That is if you are a WASP then you are a target. Not everyone here is buying into PC stuff that is being pushed our way. Yet people are still treated with respect and allowed to do the job that they are qualified to do.
Don't let flydc comments scare you away.

Supporting diversity brings income to the company...

TiredSoul
04-27-2018, 01:48 PM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

Sounds very sanctimonious to me.
They’re an airline.

Slaphappy
04-27-2018, 02:37 PM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

I've started wondering if Diversity isn't just code for "non-white" and Inclusions isn't just got for "non-straight".

I think that diversity and inclusion is over used at AA. Why pigeon hole people into different categories? Just hire the folks that meet the standards instead of using other criteria. Our company is too PC. That is if you are a WASP then you are a target. Not everyone here is buying into PC stuff that is being pushed our way. Yet people are still treated with respect and allowed to do the job that they are qualified to do.
Don't let flydc comments scare you away.

There is a concept called "virtue signaling". Basically people or organizations jumping over themselves to show everyone how "great" they are at something. The funniest example was i think it was pepsi that spent a few million on a superbowl ad to show everyone they donated 100k in water.

Rawhide16
04-27-2018, 03:11 PM
I worry that my application is messed up and I’ll never know it.

Have you used an app review service? I know it sounds cheeky but I found it to be VERY useful.

Santini
04-27-2018, 03:35 PM
Yes, there are services out there that you can contact. The fact that you are asking the questions suggests to me that you have not done your due diligence to ensure a tight package.

It suggests I do my own diligence, not that I’m infallible.

If they don’t want me they don’t want me. Maybe there is something they see they don’t like. I have never had a problem getting hired anywhere I wanted in the past, so whatever it is I’m unaware.

Santini
04-27-2018, 03:37 PM
Have you used an app review service? I know it sounds cheeky but I found it to be VERY useful.

I haven’t. Sounds like I may need to though. Then again, it sounds like I’m threading a needle in a rainstorm, so it may not matter.

Any suggestions on one?

Santini
04-27-2018, 03:38 PM
I've started wondering if Diversity isn't just code for "non-white" and Inclusions isn't just got for "non-straight".

There is a concept called "virtue signaling". Basically people or organizations jumping over themselves to show everyone how "great" they are at something. The funniest example was i think it was pepsi that spent a few million on a superbowl ad to show everyone they donated 100k in water.

Spot on. Reverse discrimination was my first thought. Virtue signaling a close second. It’s getting rather silly at this point. Like the other guy said, can’t we just fly airplanes and look out for one another?

Santini
04-27-2018, 03:39 PM
Supporting diversity brings income to the company...

Actually, it turns people off. Try supporting excellence instead.

Santini
04-27-2018, 03:40 PM
I think that diversity and inclusion is over used at AA. Why pigeon hole people into different categories? Just hire the folks that meet the standards instead of using other criteria. Our company is too PC. That is if you are a WASP then you are a target. Not everyone here is buying into PC stuff that is being pushed our way. Yet people are still treated with respect and allowed to do the job that they are qualified to do.
Don't let flydc comments scare you away.

Thanks, man.

Sounds like I don’t have what they want. That’s fine. I make a buck fifty without working too too much. I should just enjoy the flowers for now and see how it plays out.

bizzlepilot
04-27-2018, 06:22 PM
1984 Double plus good.

This sounds doubleplusungood. And watch your thoughtcrime.

Rawhide16
04-27-2018, 07:07 PM
I haven’t. Sounds like I may need to though. Then again, it sounds like I’m threading a needle in a rainstorm, so it may not matter.

Any suggestions on one?

I used Checked and Set. Charlie Venema was a big wig on the United hiring team.

Santini
04-27-2018, 07:16 PM
I used Checked and Set. Charlie Venema was a big wig on the United hiring team.

I’ll give them a shout. Much appreciated.

Santini
04-27-2018, 07:17 PM
This sounds doubleplusungood. And watch your thoughtcrime.

Just wait until that Chinese-style behavioral rating system makes its way over here in a few years...

Otterbox
04-27-2018, 07:25 PM
Actually, it turns people off. Try supporting excellence instead.

That post was slightly sarcastic, but that is the way management looks at things... “If we publicly support X group then Y demographic will think of us first when buying premium tickets or traveling for business.”

Folks in first class and frequent fliers don’t care about specific pilot backgrounds, but they do notice who sits up front...

Cheddar
04-27-2018, 07:31 PM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp



Ummmmmm, I work ‘here’ and almost everyone I personally know that works here would probably say that just being a decent human being would suffice - but what’s really important are competence and not being a total AAHole to your fellow crew members and customers. But you believe whatever is in vogue with HR...

And guess what, that’s what the interview is about!!!

Priorities to fellow crew members :
1) Is this person going to be the reason all my fine pink mist escapes my big fat body in a horribly painful fashion and ties the hands of the insurance underwriters so that all my buddies are now out of work...

2) Can this person play well with the people we’ve already hired... ‘pilotsplaining’ - am I going to want to strangle you mid sequence - because I don’t think I can do ‘hard time’ and I really like making six figures staring out the window for a living.

3) Is this person going to scare off the people that pay me six figures to stare out the window...

Diversity and Inclusion are not why most of us came to work here - it’s about $4-7MM earned in your career looking out a window (and therefore proving your third grade teacher wrong) and having decent QWL with interesting people that you may be lucky enough to call friends.


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Santini
04-27-2018, 07:32 PM
That post was slightly sarcastic, but that is the way management looks at things... “If we publicly support X group then Y demographic will think of us first when buying premium tickets or traveling for business.”

Folks in first class and frequent fliers don’t care about specific pilot backgrounds, but they do notice who sits up front...


No, I hear ya. Just saying, people want professionals up front. They could care less what parades you march in on your days off. And like it or lump it, it’s reassuring to see that evil white male up front. I don’t think people say, “Wow, all I see are pale male pilots! I’m taking the bus!”

Funny, when I was overseas they wanted Americans in front. Being a white guy is a bonus everywhere but here I guess. Thank goodness my kids can claim “Native American”—they’re gonna’ need it.

Santini
04-27-2018, 07:33 PM
Ummmmmm, I work ‘here’ and almost everyone I personally know that works here would probably say that just being a decent human being would suffice - but what’s really important are competence and not being a total AAHole to your fellow crew members and customers. But you believe whatever is in vogue with HR...

And guess what, that’s what the interview is about!!!

Priorities to fellow crew members :
1) Is this person going to be the reason all my fine pink mist escapes my big fat body in a horribly painful fashion and ties the hands of the insurance underwriters so that all my buddies are now out of work...

2) Can this person play well with the people we’ve already hired... ‘pilotsplaining’ - am I going to want to strangle you mid sequence - because I don’t think I can do ‘hard time’ and I really like making six figures staring out the window for a living.

3) Is this person going to scare off the people that pay me six figures to stare out the window...

Diversity and Inclusion are not why most of us came to work here - it’s about $4-7MM earned in your career looking out a window (and therefore proving your third grade teacher wrong) and having decent QWL with interesting people that you may be lucky enough to call friends.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Attaboy. Exactly right.

AAhole
04-27-2018, 09:13 PM
Ummmmmm, I work ‘here’ and almost everyone I personally know that works here would probably say that just being a decent human being would suffice - but what’s really important are competence and not being a total AAHole to your fellow crew members and customers. But you believe whatever is in vogue with HR...



Hey, I had this handle before it was cool to use a noun!! Also not a white male, BTW...

Cheddar
04-28-2018, 05:41 AM
Hey, I had this handle before it was cool to use a noun!! Also not a white male, BTW...



Well, that’s just great! Now I have to report myself to the rule 32 board!




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JetMonkey
04-28-2018, 04:49 PM
This is getting ridiculous.
You’re not running for office.

It may sound ridiculous, but I'm starting to hear more about having some type of community service on your app gives it a better scoring chance with the filtering programs the legacies now use. Had a flight attendent recently who's boyfriend is at Republic mention this also. They volunteered a few weekends at their local soup kitchen helping to feed the homeless so he could add it to his application.

Adanac
04-28-2018, 05:09 PM
- Job fairs. Go to as many as possible. Make sure the recruiters recognize your face.
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.
- Any positions in safety, training, union, recruiting
- Volunteer experience
- Internal recommendations
- Update your app every 2 weeks
- Hire a professional to go through your applications

I know it's a bummer to hear but I too did everything FlyDC recommended. Was previous 121 and hired off the street in 2016.

- WAI, NGPA, OBAP
- attended WAI conference and met recruiters
- volunteered in my off time
- Worked in safety department at my old airline
- Worked with recruitment service to catch all the bugs and gotchya's on the resume
- updated my app every day (one flight hour at a time)
- Several internal recs

It's not impossible and things are about to move

flydc
04-28-2018, 06:49 PM
American Airlines wants to see that you support diversity and inclusion because they want to know that you can work well with people different from yourself, both in and out of the cockpit. They want to know that you will treat ALL people with respect.

PRS Guitars
04-28-2018, 07:47 PM
American Airlines wants to see that you support diversity and inclusion because they want to know that you can work well with people different from yourself, both in and out of the cockpit. They want to know that you will treat ALL people with respect.

Yes, and most of us can do that without bragging about it, or taking a class about it, or joining the organizations you mention, or having it shoved down our throats. Most of us already do this without having to be told. Most of us did this in a previous job. That’s what makes it PC BS.

It’s kind of like in the Air Force, some new commanders will say “I’m a servant leader”. Yeah? Don’t tell me...just do it.

A330FoodCritic
04-28-2018, 08:27 PM
And like it or lump it, it’s reassuring to see that evil white male up front.

Maybe there is a reason AA hasn't called you.

Good luck chasing UAL.

A330FoodCritic
04-28-2018, 09:30 PM
Being a white guy is a bonus everywhere but here I guess. Thank goodness my kids can claim “Native American”—they’re gonna’ need it.

You are average hour wise, not 121, and haven't had a significant training event in the last five years but it's your white skin that's holding you back, got it.

ShyGuy
04-29-2018, 03:44 AM
Curious because I’ve heard this numerous times now, true/false/rumor? Is it really true there is an invisible requirement/filter that checks if you’ve had a major training event in the last 5 years? If true, that could be an issue for those at single fleet type only?

Cheddar
04-29-2018, 04:26 AM
Yes, and most of us can do that without bragging about it, or taking a class about it, or joining the organizations you mention, or having it shoved down our throats. Most of us already do this without having to be told. Most of us did this in a previous job. That’s what makes it PC BS.



It’s kind of like in the Air Force, some new commanders will say “I’m a servant leader”. Yeah? Don’t tell me...just do it.



Shack...




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Name User
04-29-2018, 04:29 AM
US Airways had that requirement mostly because of all the issues they were having with long time FOs who were burnt out not being able to pass training events/upgrades. No idea if AA has it.

It's funny looking back but getting downgraded was the best thing that ever happened to me because it gave me another recent training event that put me through on their selection criteria. Meanwhile a lot of guys just senior to me who never got downgraded were still at my regional years later. Kinda funny how it all seems to work out.

A330FoodCritic
04-29-2018, 04:52 AM
When’s the last time you went through a full training course? New type rating or upgrading from FO to CA in the same type. In the past 5 (?) yrs was the cutoff.

AA’s civilian OTS hiring last year was 9%.

DL published avg civilian hiring data - 7600 TT and 4100 PIC.

Your resume, in a competitive market, is dead center average.

I only mentioned it because Slice has some good intel at times.

Cheddar
04-29-2018, 04:55 AM
As for the OP, I don’t think the passengers care much who is in the front of the bus - as long as they are competent and good at their jobs.

Sorry man, but in the US skin color/gender shouldn’t matter with the competence bias at major airlines. To get to this point, the training and experience level is higher than almost anywhere else in the world. There are always exceptions and I definitely think we all have our 2% rule, but your experience with getting on at a legacy should prove the point.


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flydc
04-29-2018, 06:29 AM
Yes, and most of us can do that without bragging about it, or taking a class about it, or joining the organizations you mention, or having it shoved down our throats. Most of us already do this without having to be told. Most of us did this in a previous job. That’s what makes it PC BS.

If that were truly the case, then this wouldn’t be an issue. I couldn’t count how many times I’ve heard prejudice and/or bias comments at work about women, people of color, gays, and people of a certain age or religion. Just because you haven’t experienced discrimination at work, doesn’t mean that others haven’t. Why do you think we keep getting memos and assessments on the topic?

swaayze
04-29-2018, 07:14 AM
I’ll play the grumpy old man:

Welcome to the major/legacy airline quest. “Very qualified” merely gets you into the short stack of a couple thousand resumes. The three main ingredients for winning the major airline job lotto in no particular order are:

1) Networking

2) Active patience (update and improve regularly, but expect nothing to speed the process)

3) Luck

Even in the best pilots' market in decades you can forget about expecting fairness and/or entitlement (the “not running for office” comment had these tones imo). Maybe the regionals are easy to get a job at now, but the shortage hasn’t crunched the top tier yet, nor will it for a few more years. You gotta work hard within coach's rules so you might get to play the game, or don’t and sit on the bench.

So Santini, your app is probably fine. Have someone else sit and review it with you. Get interview/app consulting. Pray. Not trying to be flippant, that’s just what else you can do.


Good luck!

A330FoodCritic
04-29-2018, 07:25 AM
If that were truly the case, then this wouldn’t be an issue. I couldn’t count how many times I’ve heard prejudice and/or bias comments at work about women, people of color, gays, and people of a certain age or religion. Just because you haven’t experienced discrimination at work, doesn’t mean that others haven’t. Why do you think we keep getting memos and assessments on the topic?

I wasn't going to bring it up but I have flown with pilots who:

Hate Women (instructor pilot)
Hate Gays
Hate Filipino people
Hate Jewish people

Such a nice world out there.

RhinoBallAuto
04-29-2018, 07:54 AM
Welcome to the major/legacy airline quest. “Very qualified” merely gets you into the short stack of a couple thousand resumes. The three main ingredients for winning the major airline job lotto in no particular order are:

1) Networking ...

I'll add an observation that it's more of an extension of the point on networking. All of the big boys have some form of recommendation process. They clearly need a way to filter through the "small" stack of highly qualified applicants. The internal LOR (or LORs) seems to be a big breakout. It's clearly the case at DAL, FX, SWA, AA....an on.

At American, they are pretty open about where they focus their recruiting emphasis. They push their WOs, like military trained aviators, and straight from Pilot Recruitment, they place a premium on internal recs. As you build your network, try to get connected with mainline or WO CAs/FOs... It could be the last bit of help you need!

Learflyer
04-29-2018, 08:05 AM
- Job fairs. Go to as many as possible. Make sure the recruiters recognize your face.
- Membership to NGPA, WIA, and OBAP. It shows your support for diversity and inclusion.
- Any positions in safety, training, union, recruiting
- Volunteer experience
- Internal recommendations
- Update your app every 2 weeks
- Hire a professional to go through your applications

Je$u$ tap dancing Christ. Two words that need to take a little breather in this country.

Learflyer
04-29-2018, 08:06 AM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

Just. Stop.

Learflyer
04-29-2018, 08:19 AM
If that were truly the case, then this wouldn’t be an issue. I couldn’t count how many times I’ve heard prejudice and/or bias comments at work about women, people of color, gays, and people of a certain age or religion. Just because you haven’t experienced discrimination at work, doesn’t mean that others haven’t. Why do you think we keep getting memos and assessments on the topic?

Please. Stop the "People of Color" hor$e $hit too. The real problem with society are white lefties that have to use fake terms for fellow human beings with different pigmentation. Ugh!

flydc
04-29-2018, 09:00 AM
Just. Stop.

This isn't going to stop, buddy. Get used to it.

Sliceback
04-29-2018, 10:56 AM
I only mentioned it because Slice has some good intel at times.

Re: lack of recent training experience - No insider solid info. But it had been a factor in the past. And the schoolhouse guys know, or at least say, guys who’ve been in one seat a long time struggle with their next school.

Just like mil guys getting 121 Qual’d, or a mil getting getting an IP qual, or a guy upgrading, I've seen guys get new type ratings and all of the previous resume improvements have resulted in them getting contacted.

Is that proof? No. Does it make me wonder if it’s part of the matrix? Yes. Would I chase that new square if I was applying and could get a new square filled, especially with a recent training event? Absolutely. In the past a lack of a new training qualification within five years was a ‘drop dead’ line. If it was a possibility I’d erase that unknown question mark.

cactusmike
04-29-2018, 08:11 PM
Diversity and Inclusion is very important to American Airlines and many of us that work here. If it's not important to you, perhaps you should focus your efforts towards a company whose values align more closely with your own.

https://www.aa.com/i18n/customer-service/about-us/diversity/inclusion-and-diversity.jsp

That’s crap. The only thing I care about is whether the guy or gal next to me can; #1, fly well enough for me to trust them, #2 isn’t such a tool that I shut them out after 15 minutes.

The only thing that should count is skills and the ability to get along. The best qualified person for the job, period. Artificial quotas lead to issues in training and line ops. I’ve seen that show before and it’s not pretty.

justfun
04-30-2018, 09:20 AM
cactusmike,
That is what I said earlier. These people who are pushing this PC BS and talking about white privalidge are part of the problem not the solution. By hiring someone because of there status and not because of their excellent qualfications, you are downgrading the safety of this airline. This is an unforgiving business and it doesnt matter what race, religion or who you sleep with. If you are good enough to do this job then you should be in this profession.

A simple question to ask yourself is, would you allow your family to fly with this person in the cockpit? That is the most important question and the answer should be yes. If not, then they dont need to be upfront. I have flown with all types and don't care about who it is as long as they are safe and fun to be with for 3-4 fours days on the road.

flydc
04-30-2018, 09:38 AM
You all are missing the point. Nobody is saying you need to be a minority to get hired as an AA pilot. The overwhelming majority of our new hires are straight, white, men.

American Airlines wants to see that you support diversity and inclusion because you’re going to be working with people from all walks of life. Not just in the cockpit, but with all different types of coworkers and customers. We don’t want people that are going to bring their bias and prejudice into the workplace.

You may not personally agree with this, but this is the official philosophy of the airline. It may not matter to you, but it is important to many of the people who work here, myself included.

Btw, you should be prepared to talk about what diversity and inclusion means to you, should you ever be fortunate enough to get an interview. I was asked in two different ways when I interviewed in 2016.

GHOST
04-30-2018, 08:32 PM
You are average hour wise, not 121, and haven't had a significant training event in the last five years but it's your white skin that's holding you back, got it.

Exactly. I love how white males feel they are being discriminated against whenever a minority gets hired. 90% of our pilots look the same and have similar qualifications. However when a minority gets hired with the same credentials - somehow "they" didn’t deserve it, or had an advantage. When 10% is too much.

tizzizzailslf04
04-30-2018, 09:43 PM
As usual with these kinds of threads...a lot of people telling on themselves.

If you can't get hired in a profession that's 90%+ white male, it's not the minorities...it's you. Reflect.

Sliceback
05-01-2018, 05:03 AM
The hiring group population isn’t 90% white male. Close to 80-85% but still overwhelmingly white male.

The question is does the percentage of any group getting hired equal the same percentage of that group’s share of the overall hiring pool. Ignoring military/civilian how many different sub groups are there? Four to five major groups? The company has stated, for at least one year, that they hired twice as many out of one group. That doesn’t happen randomly so to some extent target hiring was, and might still be, part of the process.

With the largest group being white males doubling a small sub group’s hiring resulted in approx 10% less white males getting hired.

Some would argue that “it’s only 10%” but the 10% that got discriminated against, for their gender and skin color, probably don’t feel that way.

GHOST
05-01-2018, 05:51 AM
The hiring group population isn’t 90% white male. Close to 80-85% but still overwhelmingly white male.

The question is does the percentage of any group getting hired equal the same percentage of that group’s share of the overall hiring pool. Ignoring military/civilian how many different sub groups are there? Four to five major groups? The company has stated, for at least one year, that they hired twice as many out of one group. That doesn’t happen randomly so to some extent target hiring was, and might still be, part of the process.

With the largest group being white males doubling a small sub group’s hiring resulted in approx 10% less white males getting hired.

Some would argue that “it’s only 10%” but the 10% that got discriminated against, for their gender and skin color, probably don’t feel that way.

Again, white males are not being discriminated against. I know plenty of black, hispanic, asian, and women pilots who are highly qualified from various backgrounds who haven’t been given an opportunity to interview at a major airline. Furthermore, not one of them has complained and/or made excuses. They understand the competitive nature of the industry, and are patiently waiting for an opportunity to present itself.

In regards to target hiring, just because a company wishes to expand opportunities to other “sub groups” does not mean that they are not qualified. In years past, target hiring was only extended to members of the good ole’ boy’s club. People who looked like me were generally not part of that group if you know what I mean.

The whole notion of minorities having an easier route to the flight deck, and/or getting slots that should have gone to more qualified white males is a narrative we hear too often in this industry. I’ve heard it my whole career as others have tried to diminish what myself and others have achieved.

Respectfully

GHOST
05-01-2018, 06:21 AM
Sliceback,

I find many of your post to be very informative. I used your quote to illustrate a point. Please don't take my post as an attack against you or your character.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:03 AM
You are average hour wise, not 121, and haven't had a significant training event in the last five years but it's your white skin that's holding you back, got it.

Context is everything. I was responding to someone else who implied that I was “too male and too pale” or some such.

And I have nearly four years of 121 experience.

I really don’t care. Especially with some of the snark in this thread. You must be a dream to work with.

I make $150K a year flying as much in a year as AA flies in a month. Considering that, I’ve got it made where I’m at. If they don’t call so be it. The grass is not always greener.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:04 AM
US Airways had that requirement mostly because of all the issues they were having with long time FOs who were burnt out not being able to pass training events/upgrades. No idea if AA has it.

It's funny looking back but getting downgraded was the best thing that ever happened to me because it gave me another recent training event that put me through on their selection criteria. Meanwhile a lot of guys just senior to me who never got downgraded were still at my regional years later. Kinda funny how it all seems to work out.

So my 135 rides don’t count as a training event?

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:06 AM
As for the OP, I don’t think the passengers care much who is in the front of the bus - as long as they are competent and good at their jobs.

Sorry man, but in the US skin color/gender shouldn’t matter with the competence bias at major airlines. To get to this point, the training and experience level is higher than almost anywhere else in the world. There are always exceptions and I definitely think we all have our 2% rule, but your experience with getting on at a legacy should prove the point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree with you completely. Skin color should be a non-factor. I’d say most of us live our lives colorblind, but reverse racism seems to get a pass. Seems. Maybe it’s a myth.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:07 AM
I’ll play the grumpy old man:

Welcome to the major/legacy airline quest. “Very qualified” merely gets you into the short stack of a couple thousand resumes. The three main ingredients for winning the major airline job lotto in no particular order are:

1) Networking

2) Active patience (update and improve regularly, but expect nothing to speed the process)

3) Luck

Even in the best pilots' market in decades you can forget about expecting fairness and/or entitlement (the “not running for office” comment had these tones imo). Maybe the regionals are easy to get a job at now, but the shortage hasn’t crunched the top tier yet, nor will it for a few more years. You gotta work hard within coach's rules so you might get to play the game, or don’t and sit on the bench.

So Santini, your app is probably fine. Have someone else sit and review it with you. Get interview/app consulting. Pray. Not trying to be flippant, that’s just what else you can do.


Good luck!


Much appreciated, sir.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:09 AM
I'll add an observation that it's more of an extension of the point on networking. All of the big boys have some form of recommendation process. They clearly need a way to filter through the "small" stack of highly qualified applicants. The internal LOR (or LORs) seems to be a big breakout. It's clearly the case at DAL, FX, SWA, AA....an on.

At American, they are pretty open about where they focus their recruiting emphasis. They push their WOs, like military trained aviators, and straight from Pilot Recruitment, they place a premium on internal recs. As you build your network, try to get connected with mainline or WO CAs/FOs... It could be the last bit of help you need!

Thanks for the advice. I gotta’ dig and figure out who is at AA I know. Just about everyone I have worked with went non-AA.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:10 AM
That’s crap. The only thing I care about is whether the guy or gal next to me can; #1, fly well enough for me to trust them, #2 isn’t such a tool that I shut them out after 15 minutes.

The only thing that should count is skills and the ability to get along. The best qualified person for the job, period. Artificial quotas lead to issues in training and line ops. I’ve seen that show before and it’s not pretty.


Bingo. Right on.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:12 AM
You all are missing the point. Nobody is saying you need to be a minority to get hired as an AA pilot. The overwhelming majority of our new hires are straight, white, men.

American Airlines wants to see that you support diversity and inclusion because you’re going to be working with people from all walks of life. Not just in the cockpit, but with all different types of coworkers and customers. We don’t want people that are going to bring their bias and prejudice into the workplace.

You may not personally agree with this, but this is the official philosophy of the airline. It may not matter to you, but it is important to many of the people who work here, myself included.

Btw, you should be prepared to talk about what diversity and inclusion means to you, should you ever be fortunate enough to get an interview. I was asked in two different ways when I interviewed in 2016.

Basically they want us to fork over our money and give it to people with a fake grievance industry racket so they can fly around the world telling us how superior they are. Got it.

No thanks.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:13 AM
Exactly. I love how white males feel they are being discriminated against whenever a minority gets hired. 90% of our pilots look the same and have similar qualifications. However when a minority gets hired with the same credentials - somehow "they" didn’t deserve it, or had an advantage. When 10% is too much.


I never said that. I was responding to someone who did.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:13 AM
As usual with these kinds of threads...a lot of people telling on themselves.

If you can't get hired in a profession that's 90%+ white male, it's not the minorities...it's you. Reflect.

Which is why I asked the original question. Sounds like I’m average on times. It is what it is.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:16 AM
Maybe there is a reason AA hasn't called you.

Good luck chasing UAL.

Yeah. My times are average.

Meh. No skin off my nose. I’m doing fine where I am and this thread has reminded me of that. I’m done chasing rainbows.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:18 AM
Je$u$ tap dancing Christ. Two words that need to take a little breather in this country.

No kidding. Where I grew up this was just called common decency. The hypocritical regressive virtue signaling makes me want to gag.

GHOST
05-01-2018, 08:49 AM
No, I hear ya. Just saying, people want professionals up front. They could care less what parades you march in on your days off. And like it or lump it, it’s reassuring to see that evil white male up front. I don’t think people say, “Wow, all I see are pale male pilots! I’m taking the bus!”

Funny, when I was overseas they wanted Americans in front. Being a white guy is a bonus everywhere but here I guess. Thank goodness my kids can claim “Native American”—they’re gonna’ need it.

Reassuring for who? Please remind us, how is being a white guy not a bonus here in the United States. You clearly don’t get it. Good luck in your future, Sir.

Santini
05-01-2018, 08:55 AM
Reassuring for who? Please remind us, how is being a white guy not a bonus here in the United States. You clearly don’t get it. Good luck in your future, Sir.


Being an American of any color is a bonus. You clearly don't get it. Good luck in your future, sir.

Learflyer
05-01-2018, 10:10 AM
In my observations the women are at least getting the interviews first over men if you stick them side by side. Not always getting hired, but getting looked at first for sure.

Santini
05-01-2018, 10:37 AM
In my observations the women are at least getting the interviews first over men if you stick them side by side. Not always getting hired, but getting looked at first for sure.

It's anecdotal, but one of the guys I used to fly with got hired at United because I encouraged him to apply.

"They'd never hire me, man."

"Are you kidding me? You're black. They'll hire you tomorrow. Guys like you are a rare commodity. You're in demand. If you don't apply I'll kill you."

He applied. He never came back. Across the board I had better quals than he did in every area and had my app in longer. We worked at the same non-121 company (it wasn't even Part 135). Again, anecdotal, but draw whatever conclusions you want. He got hired. I never even got a call.

I'm not complaining, btw, don't take it that way. It's just your post brought it to mind.

EMBskillz
05-01-2018, 10:40 AM
You all are missing the point. Nobody is saying you need to be a minority to get hired as an AA pilot. The overwhelming majority of our new hires are straight, white, men.

American Airlines wants to see that you support diversity and inclusion because you’re going to be working with people from all walks of life. Not just in the cockpit, but with all different types of coworkers and customers. We don’t want people that are going to bring their bias and prejudice into the workplace.

You may not personally agree with this, but this is the official philosophy of the airline. It may not matter to you, but it is important to many of the people who work here, myself included.

Btw, you should be prepared to talk about what diversity and inclusion means to you, should you ever be fortunate enough to get an interview. I was asked in two different ways when I interviewed in 2016.


Nah. I dont think so. I think when you were hired you thought you could bring that agenda to AA. Its not gonna work because you are wAAy too aggressive about it. So before you go and start a gofundme page for your next “friends of Dorothy” cruise, please consider who you are working with more than who you are employed by.

ceelo
05-01-2018, 03:09 PM
No, I hear ya. Just saying, people want professionals up front. They could care less what parades you march in on your days off. And like it or lump it, it’s reassuring to see that evil white male up front. I don’t think people say, “Wow, all I see are pale male pilots! I’m taking the bus!”

Funny, when I was overseas they wanted Americans in front. Being a white guy is a bonus everywhere but here I guess. Thank goodness my kids can claim “Native American”—they’re gonna’ need it.

Ugh. This entire thread is a troll thread/pity party for white guys that feel that they've gotten the short stick in life.

If you can apply to a major, you've had it pretty good in life compared to most of the world. You keep complaining about minorities and you don't even realize that 95%-97% of airline pilots are still white guys. Maybe they have something you don't huh?

Santini
05-01-2018, 04:09 PM
Ugh. This entire thread is a troll thread/pity party for white guys that feel that they've gotten the short stick in life.

If you can apply to a major, you've had it pretty good in life compared to most of the world. You keep complaining about minorities and you don't even realize that 95%-97% of airline pilots are still white guys. Maybe they have something you don't huh?

(I've not gotten the short stick all things considered. I'm a blessed individual by any measure.)

They have something I don't, all right. When I was flying into places like Afghanistan, Somalia, Angola, Rwanda, etc. they were doing round trips from St. Louis to Cedar Rapids. :)

LOL. Why'd you change your post? (Original below.)


If what you're saying is true then that sucks but remember that hiring based on diversity isn't airline exclusive. If you're a minority or a woman, hiring/getting accepting to college for example treads in your favor by a little bit. That's just how life is.

Hitting the bottle a little early this evening? :rolleyes:

And you call *US* trolls. HA HA.

My thanks to those who have actually contributed useful info to this thread. I think it's "NUFF SAID" time.

Boogerface
05-01-2018, 04:47 PM
I think it's "NUFF SAID" time.
Gotta agree here. This thread is way past due for a padlock.

ceelo
05-01-2018, 05:25 PM
(I've not gotten the short stick all things considered. I'm a blessed individual by any measure.)

They have something I don't, all right. When I was flying into places like Afghanistan, Somalia, Angola, Rwanda, etc. they were doing round trips from St. Louis to Cedar Rapids. :)

LOL. Why'd you change your post? (Original below.)



Hitting the bottle a little early this evening? :rolleyes:

And you call *US* trolls. HA HA.

My thanks to those who have actually contributed useful info to this thread. I think it's "NUFF SAID" time.

Because I started to sympathize with you for a microsecond, and then I read through the rest of the thread.

Your victim complex is frankly, laughable. You seem to act as if minorities and women get jobs in major airlines because of some "reverse discrimination" epidemic against white guys while simultaneously ignoring the fact that the vast majority of airline pilots are white men.

Lock this thread up, I don't care. You've already done what you've come here to do.

Santini
05-01-2018, 07:08 PM
Because I started to sympathize with you for a microsecond, and then I read through the rest of the thread.

Your victim complex is frankly, laughable. You seem to act as if minorities and women get jobs in major airlines because of some "reverse discrimination" epidemic against white guys while simultaneously ignoring the fact that the vast majority of airline pilots are white men.

Lock this thread up, I don't care. You've already done what you've come here to do.


Where in the hell did you get the idea I have a victim complex?

I asked why I wasn't getting a call and was told my times are "average" -- others took the thread off the other direction, not me. Though perhaps they are right.

The fact is there are people with lower numbers than I do getting the call. Why? Beats me. Doesn't matter. I'll wind up where I'm supposed to be and I'll make the best of it.

I make no judgments on "minorities" (I have to wonder what kind of person even sees people like that rather than just as another human being, but whatever)--or anyone else for that matter--other than on a case by case basis . If they can fly great. If not, oh well.

There are good and bad in any group. But as an experiment I should pull a little Elizabeth Warren action and see what happens. Then when I get the call you'll say it wasn't because of that and I'm a conspiracy theorist blah blah blah.

You're a real peach btw.

justfun
05-03-2018, 06:15 AM
Santini,

Check for a PM

Santini
05-03-2018, 09:27 AM
Santini,

Check for a PM

Received with thanks.

QuagmireGiggity
05-03-2018, 07:52 PM
Airlines don't want to get sued.
Airlines don't want a PR nightmare on their hands.

If you don't believe preference is given to certain groups you're lying to yourself. Having said that I think it was necessary given the past history of treating POC badly. Yes, technically it's not fair but it is necessary.

757HI
05-07-2018, 07:15 PM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.

About 50% of AA new hires are flows.

Of the other 50%, 50% of that, is military.

So, you are looking at competing for 1/4 of the available slots at AA.

You are probably doing everything right.

Keep updating.

BTW, as for networking; Yes, get letters etc. but from what check airmen have told me, it's all a computer matrix in the beginning; Like applying to the government. Lots of boxes to check. The more boxes you can check, the better off you'll be to get an interview, then it's up to you after that.

I recently flew with a check airman who's son got the thumbs down...:confused:

Maybe you can join a Guard unit?

Regionalsuck
05-10-2018, 03:23 PM
You are competing for an extremely small number of slots with thousands of other applicants, MANY, MANY that are also highly qualified.

2018 looks about the same percentages as the graph below, just larger numbers of new hires overall this year.

So for reference on what you are competing for, 2017 example: you are trying to get one of those 60 civilian off the street slots. (A VERY IMPORTANT non PC thing this graph doesn't show is at least half of those 60, more than likely went to diversity hiring). Embrace it, Accept it, learn to Love it, lol. It seems to be working for them and It is the new reality at ALL companies in this day and age. So getting down to brass tacks, really you are competing for about 30 slots or less IN A YEAR in that Purple sliver on the right side of the graph. 2018 will be 800-900 new hires I think they claim, so about 76 slots off the street maintaining the same 9-10% (non mil) off the street hire per class/year. Then cut that 76 in half to get your true competition number, unless you can check a diversity box that will improve your odds of getting a call. That is the current reality of what you are facing. Those odds are not great with thousands of apps on file from the lost decade of CA's racking up thousands of hours of TPIC. There is literally Thousands of HIGHLY qualified regional guys out there, not to mention everyone else.

For example: Like many others out there, I had multiple Jet type ratings, over a decade of 121, perfect training record, high GPA, 121 Check Airman, years of 121 TPIC, tons of volunteer time, diverse employment background with lots of accomplishments pre aviation, countless internal recs, job fairs, which I showed up at physically fit with a nice suit and professionally done resume "if that stuff even matters" who knows. App in for as long as I can remember and never a phone call, not a sniff, not a peep from any Legacy. Ever. I thought type rating number 5 may help, Nope, More TPIC? Nope. Ok, Check Airman will finally get me a call for sure? Nope. Professional resume review/guidance may help? Nope. None of it got me past whatever crazy hiring matrix there is. Maybe it's just me? Would make more sense if I at least got an interview and then bombed it, but I never did, so I don't think that's it. Also hardly any of my similarly qualified check airman friends got calls (at the big 3) either over the years, thinking we were doing all the right things to move up our career's. So who knows. Honestly, I wouldn't be here at AA now without flow through. It is what it is. People talk trash on flow being a joke on this website constantly, but I am thankful for the opportunity and it got me out of Regional hell. Finally.

I have to say, we all know it is EXTREMELY frustrating seeing FAR less qualified people hired at the Legacy carriers over the years, with pretty much no life experience, hardly any job experience, no Captain experience even as they get hired from the regional FO seat, but finally I just accepted the new reality of hiring practices and just moved on with life. I see it in other fields as well, it's not just a pilot thing. Personally, I just stuck it out forever at a wholly owned carrier eating American Eagle crap sandwiches for what felt like an eternity. Without hopping around to tempting other opportunities that kept popping up (like many other peers did). I just stuck it out waiting for my number to come up, realizing hiring is the way it is now. I have no illusions thinking I would be at a Legacy right now without Flow. Seems ridiculous whenever you see those token 23-25yr old people with virtually no life/work/practical experience hired at Legacy carriers, sometimes with multiple offers shockingly, but whattayagonna do other than shake your head and roll with it? It is what it is. Good for them I guess. Life isn't fair. This career has definitely proven that lesson to me at least!

Years ago when a lot of us started flying we were all told to get 121 TPIC and become a Check Airman and you will be at a Major ASAP. That isn't the case anymore with HR heavily involved in the hiring process at these carriers now. That unwritten rule of THE path to a Legacy is in need of a re-write. Being the most qualified pilot "on paper" doesn't guarantee you ANYTHING these days. It probably should, but from what I have seen over the years at DAL, UAL and AA.. it is really becoming almost irrelevant. So plan accordingly. AA in particular is virtually impossible off the street for a civilian guy right now. Certainly no harm in applying and trying your butt off, but the odds are just not good. Just based off percentages of what is left over after Flow-through/Military, the odds are just not in your favor. Imagine a stadium full of 10,000 great civilian guys with tons of experience and they are only going to pick about 40 of them for the year. :eek:

Saying all that, I do think AA did a good job with my new hire class. I felt like it was a really good group overall. Flow/MIL and Diverse, just like I expected.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2pq98qa.jpg

flydc
05-10-2018, 05:32 PM
https://aapilots.aa.com//uploads/temp/7608.JPG


Here’s a graph of the hiring numbers for this year.

Regionalsuck
05-10-2018, 05:50 PM
Very small slice of the pie left over for the common non diverse regional folk.

EMBskillz
05-11-2018, 09:54 AM
https://aapilots.aa.com//uploads/temp/7608.JPG


Here’s a graph of the hiring numbers for this year.

Oh Hank!! How are those “other” groups being represented?

collegedropout9
05-12-2018, 04:39 AM
The real question becomes for applicants at AA is how can AA sustain the same percentages of flows vs off the street military and civilian as retirement numbers increase. On April 1st we had over 50 pilots retire, quite of few of them went early. I think this trend will increase every month until 2023 when we hit peak retirements. I think the number of off the OTS civilian hires will increase. The question becomes: can AA sustain the loss of Captains from the 3 WO’s? I think the greatest pool of qualified applicants will begin to increase from the smallest slice of that purple pie. Maybe? Best of luck to all.

Frip
05-12-2018, 05:38 AM
Very small slice of the pie left over for the common non diverse regional folk.


~ Three times larger than the slice left over for regional "diverse" folk.

I'm not up on the latest, but the % of female pretty closely tracks the % of female ATP holders.

Is that out of line?

Sliceback
05-12-2018, 05:58 AM
~ Three times larger than the slice left over for regional "diverse" folk.

I'm not up on the latest, but the % of female pretty closely tracks the % of female ATP holders.

Is that out of line?

No, that’s not out of line. But in one year they stated they’d hired 2x the expected number of females. That doesn’t happen randomly. That over hiring had to come from the other sub pools of candidates. If it was taken from the other minority sub pools they’d have been almost wiped out that year. Some group, or groups, had to take the hit to over hire from a different group.

Gooselives
05-12-2018, 09:04 AM
You are competing for an extremely small number of slots with thousands of other applicants, MANY, MANY that are also highly qualified.

2018 looks about the same percentages as the graph below, just larger numbers of new hires overall this year.

So for reference on what you are competing for, 2017 example: you are trying to get one of those 60 civilian off the street slots. (A VERY IMPORTANT non PC thing this graph doesn't show is at least half of those 60, more than likely went to diversity hiring). Embrace it, Accept it, learn to Love it, lol. It seems to be working for them and It is the new reality at ALL companies in this day and age. So getting down to brass tacks, really you are competing for about 30 slots or less IN A YEAR in that Purple sliver on the right side of the graph. 2018 will be 800-900 new hires I think they claim, so about 76 slots off the street maintaining the same 9-10% (non mil) off the street hire per class/year. Then cut that 76 in half to get your true competition number, unless you can check a diversity box that will improve your odds of getting a call. That is the current reality of what you are facing. Those odds are not great with thousands of apps on file from the lost decade of CA's racking up thousands of hours of TPIC. There is literally Thousands of HIGHLY qualified regional guys out there, not to mention everyone else.

For example: Like many others out there, I had multiple Jet type ratings, over a decade of 121, perfect training record, high GPA, 121 Check Airman, years of 121 TPIC, tons of volunteer time, diverse employment background with lots of accomplishments pre aviation, countless internal recs, job fairs, which I showed up at physically fit with a nice suit and professionally done resume "if that stuff even matters" who knows. App in for as long as I can remember and never a phone call, not a sniff, not a peep from any Legacy. Ever. I thought type rating number 5 may help, Nope, More TPIC? Nope. Ok, Check Airman will finally get me a call for sure? Nope. Professional resume review/guidance may help? Nope. None of it got me past whatever crazy hiring matrix there is. Maybe it's just me? Would make more sense if I at least got an interview and then bombed it, but I never did, so I don't think that's it. Also hardly any of my similarly qualified check airman friends got calls (at the big 3) either over the years, thinking we were doing all the right things to move up our career's. So who knows. Honestly, I wouldn't be here at AA now without flow through. It is what it is. People talk trash on flow being a joke on this website constantly, but I am thankful for the opportunity and it got me out of Regional hell. Finally.

I have to say, we all know it is EXTREMELY frustrating seeing FAR less qualified people hired at the Legacy carriers over the years, with pretty much no life experience, hardly any job experience, no Captain experience even as they get hired from the regional FO seat, but finally I just accepted the new reality of hiring practices and just moved on with life. I see it in other fields as well, it's not just a pilot thing. Personally, I just stuck it out forever at a wholly owned carrier eating American Eagle crap sandwiches for what felt like an eternity. Without hopping around to tempting other opportunities that kept popping up (like many other peers did). I just stuck it out waiting for my number to come up, realizing hiring is the way it is now. I have no illusions thinking I would be at a Legacy right now without Flow. Seems ridiculous whenever you see those token 23-25yr old people with virtually no life/work/practical experience hired at Legacy carriers, sometimes with multiple offers shockingly, but whattayagonna do other than shake your head and roll with it? It is what it is. Good for them I guess. Life isn't fair. This career has definitely proven that lesson to me at least!

Years ago when a lot of us started flying we were all told to get 121 TPIC and become a Check Airman and you will be at a Major ASAP. That isn't the case anymore with HR heavily involved in the hiring process at these carriers now. That unwritten rule of THE path to a Legacy is in need of a re-write. Being the most qualified pilot "on paper" doesn't guarantee you ANYTHING these days. It probably should, but from what I have seen over the years at DAL, UAL and AA.. it is really becoming almost irrelevant. So plan accordingly. AA in particular is virtually impossible off the street for a civilian guy right now. Certainly no harm in applying and trying your butt off, but the odds are just not good. Just based off percentages of what is left over after Flow-through/Military, the odds are just not in your favor. Imagine a stadium full of 10,000 great civilian guys with tons of experience and they are only going to pick about 40 of them for the year. :eek:

Saying all that, I do think AA did a good job with my new hire class. I felt like it was a really good group overall. Flow/MIL and Diverse, just like I expected.

http://oi66.tinypic.com/2pq98qa.jpg

Sooo true soooo depressing ty

Regionalsuck
05-12-2018, 02:30 PM
I'm not up on the latest, but the % of female pretty closely tracks the % of female ATP holders.

Is that out of line?

The point is it is just much easier for them to get a call. Percentage wise. I don't really care either way, that is how things are done but it is an undeniable fact the odds are in their favor.

Simple numbers.. If there is 200 Females out there competing for 20 reserved slots a year vs 10,000 males competing for 20 slots a year. Who has VASTLY better odds of getting a call? Both being non military.

1 in 10 odds vs 1 in 500 odds..... obviously I don't know the exact numbers of apps/gender applying but you can get a rough idea of the probabilities each group has.

Sliceback
05-12-2018, 05:28 PM
It’s not easier for any specific group if they’re getting hired at the same rate as their overall percentage is.

5% of pilots are in sub group A? And 5% get hired? That’s to be expected. Less or more than 5%(+/- a bit) and it’s not random.

Learflyer
05-13-2018, 04:41 AM
I know a relatively attractive female that started flying with zero hours in 2011 who is now at Delta! I mean STARTED (began) flying in 2011. Holy $hit.

stillageek
05-13-2018, 05:52 AM
The point is it is just much easier for them to get a call. Percentage wise. I don't really care either way, that is how things are done but it is an undeniable fact the odds are in their favor.

Simple numbers.. If there is 200 Females out there competing for 20 reserved slots a year vs 10,000 males competing for 20 slots a year. Who has VASTLY better odds of getting a call? Both being non military.

1 in 10 odds vs 1 in 500 odds..... obviously I don't know the exact numbers of apps/gender applying but you can get a rough idea of the probabilities each group has.


Ever think women and minorities work harder to advance because that's all they know? Their whole lives they have to constantly prove themselves worthy of voting, driving, having a job. Now enter pilots who always want to perform.... The female and minority pilots still have to prove themselves worthy. I still hear the saying"another empty kitchen" by male pilots referring to female pilots.

I think it's much more likely that females and minorites are getting hired "easier" in your eyes simply because they are the ones preparing for job fairs, being active in the job fairs and the community and then of course going above and beyond what's considered normal... All because it's burned into them at an early age.

Gooselives
05-13-2018, 07:11 AM
Ever think women and minorities work harder to advance because that's all they know? Their whole lives they have to constantly prove themselves worthy of voting, driving, having a job. Now enter pilots who always want to perform.... The female and minority pilots still have to prove themselves worthy. I still hear the saying"another empty kitchen" by male pilots referring to female pilots.

I think it's much more likely that females and minorites are getting hired "easier" in your eyes simply because they are the ones preparing for job fairs, being active in the job fairs and the community and then of course going above and beyond what's considered normal... All because it's burned into them at an early age.

Wow just wow

Gooselives
05-13-2018, 07:20 AM
I know a relatively attractive female that started flying with zero hours in 2011 who is now at Delta! I mean STARTED (began) flying in 2011. Holy $hit.

How does that work? What path did she take...what experience and education can one get that fast...and how does delta explain that if a crash occurs?!?

Learflyer
05-13-2018, 08:04 AM
Ever think women and minorities work harder to advance because that's all they know? Their whole lives they have to constantly prove themselves worthy of voting, driving, having a job. Now enter pilots who always want to perform.... The female and minority pilots still have to prove themselves worthy. I still hear the saying"another empty kitchen" by male pilots referring to female pilots.



I think it's much more likely that females and minorites are getting hired "easier" in your eyes simply because they are the ones preparing for job fairs, being active in the job fairs and the community and then of course going above and beyond what's considered normal... All because it's burned into them at an early age.



Haha. Are you with the bros or not?

Sliceback
05-13-2018, 08:08 AM
Six years is enough time to get to the lower end of the current hiring curve. Lots of people have met that bar.

And in previous hiring cycles the flight time numbers were lower and a lot of the pilots hired were guys.

Sliceback
05-13-2018, 08:18 AM
Minorities have a tougher road to getting established in this profession. But so do poor kids, or kids who have no college or even H.S.(!!) graduates in their family, to help mentor them. So WAI and OBAP, among other organizations, are great for the mentorship and support they provide. But when it comes down to the bottom line the job isn’t a glee club, it’s a job that has performance standards that have to be met.

Frip
05-13-2018, 08:35 AM
Prolly right
Prolly victims of discrimination
Lawyer up, make it a class action, enlist certain segments of the media to argue your plight and expose all those unqualified new hires and unfair hiring practices.

jcountry
05-13-2018, 11:09 AM
How does that work? What path did she take...what experience and education can one get that fast...and how does delta explain that if a crash occurs?!?

In this day and age, probably won’t be a liability.

That female capt for some other airline who wrecked that plane in LGA had a very long history. Didn’t matter to them.

flydc
05-13-2018, 01:03 PM
Ever think women and minorities work harder to advance because that's all they know? Their whole lives they have to constantly prove themselves worthy of voting, driving, having a job. Now enter pilots who always want to perform.... The female and minority pilots still have to prove themselves worthy. I still hear the saying"another empty kitchen" by male pilots referring to female pilots.

I think it's much more likely that females and minorites are getting hired "easier" in your eyes simply because they are the ones preparing for job fairs, being active in the job fairs and the community and then of course going above and beyond what's considered normal... All because it's burned into them at an early age.

This! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

stillageek
05-13-2018, 01:41 PM
Haha. Are you with the bros or not?

What does that mean? The bros?

Learflyer
05-13-2018, 03:11 PM
What does that mean? The bros?

Well if you gotta ask...

Cheddar
05-13-2018, 06:48 PM
Ever think women and minorities work harder to advance because that's all they know? Their whole lives they have to constantly prove themselves worthy of voting, driving, having a job.


Saudi Arabia is 8000 miles east of here. Hyperbole much?

Minorities have a tougher road to getting established in this profession. But so do poor kids, or kids who have no college or even H.S.(!!) graduates in their family, to help mentor them. So WAI and OBAP, among other organizations, are great for the mentorship and support they provide. But when it comes down to the bottom line the job isn’t a glee club, it’s a job that has performance standards that have to be met.


This is how you do ‘it...’ There are a lot of people in this profession (even poor good looking fat white kids like me) that had a lot of luck, and/or were blessed to have some great help ALONG with hard work and drive. If I didn’t have a few great mentors looking out for me I would not be even close to achieving my childhood dream.

Regardless of where you come from or how you got the job, if you really give a crap get involved in mentoring or hiring instead of pestering the rest of humanity into some sort of woe is me guilt trip. Being involved in hiring is one of the best things I’ve ever done professionally.

If your dad was an airline pilot and you began flying at 10, that’s awesome! If you are a young black girl with horrible family problems that some how made it through life with a great sense of humor, a college flight program and followed her dreams WITHOUT OBAP/WAI that’s amazing - oh yeah - I was on her hiring board - and guess what - she was the most qualified, all around best candidate my reserve squadron had seen in years. Was it because she was a ‘poor black girl that finally made it and we all felt sorry for her? Uhhhhh, no. She was flat out the best candidate and we wanted her at the squadron because she was awesome and showed herself approved at 21 to take on the world. I’ve also sat on a board of a legacy airline CKA’s kid. Another great candidate we were lucky to hire...

1. Don’t turn me into a gelatinous gooey ball of meat and twisted aluminum along with the other 100+ people on board followed very closely by
2. Don’t make everybody around you want to pummel you into that gelatinous gooey ball of meat because you are a horrible human being.

How in the he77 is it that hard?




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FLPS30GRDWN
05-13-2018, 08:09 PM
This is astoundingly embarrassing that this topic is even being debated openly and with such cowardice that only a forum can provide.

I’ve heard whining like this... several times... maybe bc I look like the type that would agree, but I don’t... at all. I never have, not before I had a job, and not after. Maybe I was raised by odd people but they taught me that I live in a country where the people who win are the ones who keep their eye on the ball and show up day after day and do their best.

I would challenge any complainer to set there resume side by side, names removed with any minority/woman and I would wager largely that no drastic difference would be found.

NorthwestAA
05-13-2018, 08:31 PM
I don't think the difficultly in getting hired right now is due to minorities or women, it's the flows. Like was stated earlier, after you finish with the flows and military for each class there is a very very small window for anyone off the street to get hired. It's kind of like after 9/11 with Alaska Airlines. It was tough to get hired off the street, because of the small numbers hired and nepotism. Alaska wasn't my first choice, but I remember guys who only wanted to work there with phenomenal qualifications never getting a call, while sons of senior captains with multiple DUIs walked right in with minimal time. Just the way it was/is.

Gooselives
05-13-2018, 08:40 PM
This is astoundingly embarrassing that this topic is even being debated openly and with such cowardice that only a forum can provide.

I’ve heard whining like this... several times... maybe bc I look like the type that would agree, but I don’t... at all. I never have, not before I had a job, and not after. Maybe I was raised by odd people but they taught me that I live in a country where the people who win are the ones who keep their eye on the ball and show up day after day and do their best.

I would challenge any complainer to set there resume side by side, names removed with any minority/woman and I would wager largely that no drastic difference would be found.

Thats how they should hire..names removed...select best candidates. Period. But thats not the world we live in. Good luck to all :)

A330FoodCritic
05-13-2018, 08:58 PM
Thats how they should hire..names removed...select best candidates. Period. But thats not the world we live in. Good luck to all :)

That would end the good ole boy network wouldn't it.

ecam
05-14-2018, 05:44 AM
Thats how they should hire..names removed...select best candidates. Period. But thats not the world we live in. Good luck to all :)

No personal dog in the fight, since I'm retiring soon and not applying anywhere, but can someone show me these "diversity boxes" people check on applications to move to the front of the line? Because after decades in this business and many airlines, I've never seen one.

Quit making excuses for why you didn't get hired/interviewed.

Gooselives
05-14-2018, 06:13 AM
No personal dog in the fight, since I'm retiring soon and not applying anywhere, but can someone show me these "diversity boxes" people check on applications to move to the front of the line? Because after decades in this business and many airlines, I've never seen one.

Quit making excuses for why you didn't get hired/interviewed.

The first three questions on any app.

ecam
05-14-2018, 06:43 AM
The first three questions on any app.

That's dumb. So you're saying they glean gender and race from the name, address and flight time? Because if you're named Tyrone or Felicia, I guess that says it all? Stereotype much?

Or do you mean the optional disclosure form that clearly says it can't and won't be used for selection? Oh, I get it, it's a CONSPIRACY! They trick people into filling it out, then use it to only hire black gay girls! :rolleyes:

Like I said, stop making excuses.

Gooselives
05-14-2018, 07:46 AM
That's dumb. So you're saying they glean gender and race from the name, address and flight time? Because if you're named Tyrone or Felicia, I guess that says it all? Stereotype much?

Or do you mean the optional disclosure form that clearly says it can't and won't be used for selection? Oh, I get it, it's a CONSPIRACY! They trick people into filling it out, then use it to only hire black gay girls! :rolleyes:

Like I said, stop making excuses.

True story...friend Alex has a gender neutral name had been applying for united for years...one day said whatever...switched his gender to female and got the call next day...coincidence? They loved his story and hired him in interview.

tomgoodman
05-14-2018, 07:51 AM
... can someone show me these "diversity boxes" people check on applications to move to the front of the line?

HR quit using them due to a rash of promiscuous box-checking. For example, a suspicious number of applicants claimed to be handicapped gay Eskimos. Now they send out the Diversity Investigative Squad to lurk, spy, and report any posers. :D

TransWorld
05-14-2018, 07:58 AM
HR quit using them due to a rash of promiscuous box-checking. For example, a suspicious number of applicants claimed to be handicapped gay Eskimos. Now they send out the Diversity Investigative Squad to lurk, spy, and report any posers. :D

Does that include determining if my need for my seeing eye dog is valid?

Learflyer
05-14-2018, 08:35 AM
True story...friend Alex has a gender neutral name had been applying for united for years...one day said whatever...switched his gender to female and got the call next day...coincidence? They loved his story and hired him in interview.



BS! They hired someone who falsified his application?

ecam
05-14-2018, 08:40 AM
True story...friend Alex has a gender neutral name had been applying for united for years...one day said whatever...switched his gender to female and got the call next day...coincidence? They loved his story and hired him in interview.

Cool story bro.

TankerDriver
05-14-2018, 10:28 AM
Gutsy move Mav.True story...friend Alex has a gender neutral name had been applying for united for years...one day said whatever...switched his gender to female and got the call next day...coincidence? They loved his story and hired him in interview.

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

jcountry
05-14-2018, 12:50 PM
No personal dog in the fight, since I'm retiring soon and not applying anywhere, but can someone show me these "diversity boxes" people check on applications to move to the front of the line? Because after decades in this business and many airlines, I've never seen one.

Quit making excuses for why you didn't get hired/interviewed.

You said it yourself.

You are retiring soon.

You didn’t come up in our era, so you probably have different circles of coworkers and acquaintances.

Many (not all) of the minorities I know have advanced to legacies much more quickly. All my WASPy friends were at military/regional jobs for about ten years before hitting a legacy.

I have a hard time remembering many minorities who even put in three years in the coal mines of regionals. I can think of a couple who got snatched up in their first year.

I even know of a couple of women who were hired at you-know-exactly-where in the late 80s or early 90s who only had a brand new commercial pilot certificate. Right from a Cessna or piper to a Boeing.

Don’t go and try to tell anyone it’s a level playing field. It certainly isn’t.

The reason fewer minorities are represented is because far fewer are pilots. The ones who are usually have a golden career at their disposal.

There most certainly is preferential hiring going on.

A330FoodCritic
05-14-2018, 03:31 PM
You said it yourself.

You are retiring soon.

You didn’t come up in our era, so you probably have different circles of coworkers and acquaintances.

Many (not all) of the minorities I know have advanced to legacies much more quickly. All my WASPy friends were at military/regional jobs for about ten years before hitting a legacy.

I have a hard time remembering many minorities who even put in three years in the coal mines of regionals. I can think of a couple who got snatched up in their first year.

I even know of a couple of women who were hired at you-know-exactly-where in the late 80s or early 90s who only had a brand new commercial pilot certificate. Right from a Cessna or piper to a Boeing.

Don’t go and try to tell anyone it’s a level playing field. It certainly isn’t.

The reason fewer minorities are represented is because far fewer are pilots. The ones who are usually have a golden career at their disposal.

There most certainly is preferential hiring going on.

https://www.alliedpilots.org/Committees/Membership/NewHire


Oh yes, women/minorities taking over.

jcountry
05-14-2018, 06:43 PM
https://www.alliedpilots.org/Committees/Membership/NewHire


Oh yes, women/minorities taking over.

https://www.quora.com/How-many-black-airline-pilots-are-there-in-the-US

They still represent a pretty low %.


That's my point.

Anyone who expects 4% of anything to comprise 50% of a hiring group doesn't care about equality of opportunity.

GHOST
05-14-2018, 10:11 PM
You said it yourself.

You are retiring soon.

You didn’t come up in our era, so you probably have different circles of coworkers and acquaintances.

Many (not all) of the minorities I know have advanced to legacies much more quickly. All my WASPy friends were at military/regional jobs for about ten years before hitting a legacy.

I have a hard time remembering many minorities who even put in three years in the coal mines of regionals. I can think of a couple who got snatched up in their first year.

I even know of a couple of women who were hired at you-know-exactly-where in the late 80s or early 90s who only had a brand new commercial pilot certificate. Right from a Cessna or piper to a Boeing.

Don’t go and try to tell anyone it’s a level playing field. It certainly isn’t.

The reason fewer minorities are represented is because far fewer are pilots. The ones who are usually have a golden career at their disposal.

There most certainly is preferential hiring going on.

Take that BS somewhere else. For every minority you claim to know who’s advanced faster than your white counterparts, I can similarly name a white/male pilot who’s advanced to a legacy faster than his peers. These types of pilots have been children of CheckAirmen, Chief Pilots or just part of the good ole boys club. I’m not calling you racist because I know your “neighbor/best friend is black.” White males are not being discriminated against in this country, and especially not the aviation industry. To claim that minority aviators have an easier path to the flight deck is just plain ignorance.

Learflyer
05-15-2018, 03:51 AM
Take that BS somewhere else. For every minority you claim to know who’s advanced faster than your white counterparts, I can similarly name a white/male pilot who’s advanced to a legacy faster than his peers. These types of pilots have been children of CheckAirmen, Chief Pilots or just part of the good ole boys club. I’m not calling you racist because I know your “neighbor/best friend is black.” White males are not being discriminated against in this country, and especially not the aviation industry. To claim that minority aviators have an easier path to the flight deck is just plain ignorance.

Well it sounds like you just called him a racist anyway. It's not racist if some of us are simply observing hiring practices. There will always be more white males. That's not the point. The point is, women and minorities are getting the [I]interviews first. But not always hired first. Just an observation. And if this is the same "ghost" from PPW, you have my deepest respect.

757HI
05-15-2018, 04:43 AM
True story...friend Alex has a gender neutral name had been applying for united for years...one day said whatever...switched his gender to female and got the call next day...coincidence? They loved his story and hired him in interview.

You're saying he lied on his application, "they" loved it, and he was hired.

Doesn't pass the smell test.

jcountry
05-15-2018, 05:44 AM
Take that BS somewhere else. For every minority you claim to know who’s advanced faster than your white counterparts, I can similarly name a white/male pilot who’s advanced to a legacy faster than his peers. These types of pilots have been children of CheckAirmen, Chief Pilots or just part of the good ole boys club. I’m not calling you racist because I know your “neighbor/best friend is black.” White males are not being discriminated against in this country, and especially not the aviation industry. To claim that minority aviators have an easier path to the flight deck is just plain ignorance.


Some people are lucky. Some people check a box. I have been on the other side of interview tables and I have personally witnessed the “we need to figure out how to hire every single (insert gender/ethnicity here) who walks through the door” speech. Don’t try and tell me that doesn’t happen. I have seen it first hand.

I could provide specifics of people I’ve known, but I won’t. Wouldn’t change anyone’s minds.

To say that “white people” aren’t discriminated against is absolutely crazy.

Every single day, a white guy gets rejected from law school, med school, etc, and etc because “white.” Affirmative action is legalized discrimination. There should be no check marks for ethnicity on any application to any school or job.

How bout that?

Doesn’t that idea strike you as fair?

How is race/gender relevant to what someone can do? Why do we ask on an app?

Your idealism falls far short of reality. We have created a world where discrimination is systematic and required by law. The real issue from my perspective is that it’s never gonna go away. Affirmative action is just as wrong as any of the old discrimination, but it’s something we all put up with because it’s socially acceptable to screw people on account of what people who look like them a hundred years back actually did.

stillageek
05-15-2018, 06:10 AM
Some people are lucky. Some people check a box. I have been on the other side of interview tables and I have personally witnessed the “we need to figure out how to hire every single (insert gender/ethnicity here) who walks through the door” speech. Don’t try and tell me that doesn’t happen. I have seen it first hand.

I could provide specifics of people I’ve known, but I won’t. Wouldn’t change anyone’s minds.

To say that “white people” aren’t discriminated against is absolutely crazy.

Every single day, a white guy gets rejected from law school, med school, etc, and etc because “white.” Affirmative action is legalized discrimination. There should be no check marks for ethnicity on any application to any school or job.

How bout that?

Doesn’t that idea strike you as fair?

How is race/gender relevant to what someone can do? Why do we ask on an app?

Your idealism falls far short of reality. We have created a world where discrimination is systematic and required by law. The real issue from my perspective is that it’s never gonna go away. Affirmative action is just as wrong as any of the old discrimination, but it’s something we all put up with because it’s socially acceptable to screw people on account of what people who look like them a hundred years back actually did.

Not One Hundred....less than one generation. Nineteen Sixty Five was 53 years ago. I could give countless examples of how it was socially acceptable in my lifetime to discriminate against people of color and women. I saw it with my own eyes and even participated in it. I still do to a point to this day. I was born in the 70s.

I myself didn't get a second look until I directly spoke with a recruiter at a job fair and took every piece of advice he had and acted on it. It wasn't easy balancing regional pilot life, raising a kid and home life and finding time to improve my odds by volunteering inside the airline, outside the airline in aviation and outside the aviation for the community. But I made it work. That's what made the difference at least for me.

I was once asked to name a famous NFL Offensive lineman....I couldn't (I really am a geek). The person continued that they are all the same as they show up on game day and do their job. He said it was just like every RJ pilot looks exactly the same on paper....a few thousand hours of 121 time, a few more of 121 PIC, no check ride bust, college degree...great...but what makes them stand out? Going above and beyond...one way is job fairs and having the "elevator talk" about yourself clear and concise. Then it's all the extra stuff.

ecam
05-15-2018, 08:02 AM
You said it yourself.

You are retiring soon.

You didn’t come up in our era, so you probably have different circles of coworkers and acquaintances.

Many (not all) of the minorities I know have advanced to legacies much more quickly. All my WASPy friends were at military/regional jobs for about ten years before hitting a legacy.

I have a hard time remembering many minorities who even put in three years in the coal mines of regionals. I can think of a couple who got snatched up in their first year.

I even know of a couple of women who were hired at you-know-exactly-where in the late 80s or early 90s who only had a brand new commercial pilot certificate. Right from a Cessna or piper to a Boeing.

Don’t go and try to tell anyone it’s a level playing field. It certainly isn’t.

The reason fewer minorities are represented is because far fewer are pilots. The ones who are usually have a golden career at their disposal.

There most certainly is preferential hiring going on.

I may be from another time, but I've seen a lot of changes in this industry. And I've flown everything from crap broken down pistons, to Convairs, to turboprop commuters to RJs, to Airbus. And I'll retire from a ULCC. Long career and I never made it to a legacy carrier. But I blame no one except me being at the wrong place at the wrong time, a nearly mid life career change, and starting over a few times. **** happens.

Maybe you and your buddies sat fat dumb and happy in the left seat of an RJ throughout the lost decade, just turning the lights on and off, but now suddenly its ending, you have nothing to show for it but 10,000+ hours and a chip on your shoulder? While the younger ones never gave up, kept networking, kept volunteering, got new ratings, etc.

But no, its reverse discrimination. Yeah it's so hard to be a white guy in an industry that's 95% white and male. GMAFB.

I hope you get out of Expressjet before the music stops. I've been in your shoes (CMR) and it's not fun. A change of attitude may be required though. Nobody is going to buy into the white victim line you're selling. Not with HR doing the hiring. Good luck.

jcountry
05-15-2018, 08:19 AM
Not One Hundred....less than one generation. Nineteen Sixty Five was 53 years ago. I could give countless examples of how it was socially acceptable in my lifetime to discriminate against people of color and women. I saw it with my own eyes and even participated in it. I still do to a point to this day. I was born in the 70s.

I myself didn't get a second look until I directly spoke with a recruiter at a job fair and took every piece of advice he had and acted on it. It wasn't easy balancing regional pilot life, raising a kid and home life and finding time to improve my odds by volunteering inside the airline, outside the airline in aviation and outside the aviation for the community. But I made it work. That's what made the difference at least for me.

I was once asked to name a famous NFL Offensive lineman....I couldn't (I really am a geek). The person continued that they are all the same as they show up on game day and do their job. He said it was just like every RJ pilot looks exactly the same on paper....a few thousand hours of 121 time, a few more of 121 PIC, no check ride bust, college degree...great...but what makes them stand out? Going above and beyond...one way is job fairs and having the "elevator talk" about yourself clear and concise. Then it's all the extra stuff.

I specifically mentioned legalized discrimination for a reason.

Huge difference between socially acceptable and legalized discrimination.

Affirmative action and all those EEOC laws specifically authorize and promote discrimination against certain groups. Many people think they are about equality. They are not. They actually formalize a legal carve out to authorize and encourage discrimination against certain groups.

As I mentioned earlier, race and gender have no bearing on academic achievement and job performance.

They shouldn’t even be listed on an app.

In my world, candidate’s names would even be concealed when people are looking at resumes and judging qualifications.

That would be true fairness.

ecam
05-15-2018, 08:28 AM
I specifically mentioned legalized discrimination for a reason.

Huge difference between socially acceptable and legalized discrimination.

Affirmative action and all those EEOC laws specifically authorize and promote discrimination against certain groups.

As I mentioned earlier, race and gender have no bearing on academic achievement and job performance.

They shouldn’t even be listed on an app.

In my world, candidate’s names would even be concealed when people are looking at resumes and judging qualifications.

That would be true fairness.

So you're saying you think 95% white and male is unfair? What's your goal, 100%?

Women are slightly over 50% of the nation.
People with African descent are about 25%.

Yet these groups represent less than 5% of the industry. Why?

Ever think maybe "back in my day" people only wanted to hire those who looked like them and shared common interests?

That's why HR does the hiring now, not pilots.

jcountry
05-15-2018, 08:39 AM
So you're saying you think 95% white and male is unfair? What's your goal, 100%?

Women are slightly over 50% of the nation.
People with African descent are about 25%.

Yet these groups represent less than 5% of the industry. Why?

Ever think maybe "back in my day" people only wanted to hire those who looked like them and shared common interests?

That's why HR does the hiring now, not pilots.

I’m saying none of it should matter.

No school app, job app, or anything other life course app should contain any race or gender info.

The names should be replaced with something like random numbers until the app progresses to the interview stage.

When a person sits down for an interview, the vast part of the selection process has been done. An interviewer shouldn’t even have any idea who’s up next, just call a number and the next qualified person steps up.

Fairness is what we are supposed to be after. Legalized discrimination is not fair.

Remember my earlier post? I was an interviewer for a previous employer. It was an airline. I remember how we were told we better hire people from certain racial/gender categories-just rubber stamp them, no matter how weak their knowledge or experience may have been.

That isn’t right. It’s no more right than what used to happen.

E175 Driver
05-15-2018, 08:39 AM
Had my stuff in for a couple years at least.

7500+ TT
4000+ PIC TURB (Jet)
Master’s Degree
Currently 91/135 but have 121 Experience.

I am wondering if my times matrix is screwed up.

Are there head hunters out there or someone in recruiting I could call? I’m really bummed...

Many thanks in advance.

Apply to any Wholly Owned regional and flow to AA. No interview!!

ecam
05-15-2018, 08:50 AM
I’m saying none of it should matter.

No school app, job app, or anything other life course app should contain any race or gender info.

The names should be replaced with something like random numbers until the app progresses to the interview stage.

When a person sits down for an interview, the vast part of the selection process has been done. An interviewer shouldn’t even have any idea who’s up next, just call a number and the next qualified person steps up.

Fairness is what we are supposed to be after. Legalized discrimination is not fair.

Remember my earlier post? I was an interviewer for a previous employer. It was an airline. I remember how we were told we better hire people from certain racial/gender categories-just rubber stamp them, no matter how weak their knowledge or experience may have been.

That isn’t right. It’s no more right than what used to happen.

Okay. Say you're hiring for a legacy carrier, and you have 6000 applications on file. They all exceed the hiring minimums, and 99% have the same or nearly the same qualifications on paper. You can hire 500. Do you interview all 6000, then go from there? How do you decide who gets interviewed.

Hiring for a small 135/121 carrier isn't the same. They have to use something to set applicants apart. Your argument that women and minorities/special interest groups are getting hired with less qualifications is BS and self serving. The only evidence you've presented is anecdotal. I have friends involved with hiring or recruiting at nearly every major airline. The numbers don't lie.

Customers and shareholders are demanding equality across the board, in all industries. Welcome to the world being run by millennials. Even an aging Boomer like myself can grasp that. so if everyone has the same qualifications, it behooves the airlines to hire some seriously underrepresented people. If you want to call that discrimination, fine, but it's hard to say a 95% majority is suffering from it.

jcountry
05-15-2018, 09:12 AM
Okay. Say you're hiring for a legacy carrier, and you have 6000 applications on file. They all exceed the hiring minimums, and 99% have the same or nearly the same qualifications on paper. You can hire 500. Do you interview all 6000, then go from there? How do you decide who gets interviewed.

Hiring for a small 135/121 carrier isn't the same. They have to use something to set applicants apart. Your argument that women and minorities/special interest groups are getting hired with less qualifications is BS and self serving. The only evidence you've presented is anecdotal. I have friends involved with hiring or recruiting at nearly every major airline. The numbers don't lie.

Customers and shareholders are demanding equality across the board, in all industries. Welcome to the world being run by millennials. Even an aging Boomer like myself can grasp that. so if everyone has the same qualifications, it behooves the airlines to hire some seriously underrepresented people. If you want to call that discrimination, fine, but it's hard to say a 95% majority is suffering from it.


I would decide who gets interviewed simply based on experience/background.

Currently, I think algorithms are used which assign points to various things-before any human ever sees an app. All that ethnic/gender stuff is worth points-and the value of that is probably vastly different depending on airline. I would delete that point system and any redact any way for the algorithm to imply such things from names.

I mentioned a while back I knew of a couple of women who were hired at XXXX back in the day with only temporary commercial certs. 250 hours-and not even a FE license. Both had gotten calls for an interview from airline XXXX without even applying. That airline was actually going down the list of new comm pilots and offering interviews to anyone who seemed like a female. Some had comm certs for other purposes, and had no intention of working for any airline-some just wanted to instruct part time or crop dust, etc..... There are plenty of fine women pilots out there, but I don't think anyone is ready for the kind of flying we do at that experience level.

Your last paragraph is off the mark. Customers and shareholders demand (and deserve) safety and competence. The fun stuff about what people look like should be entirely irrelevant.

Percentages shouldn't matter. If they do, how about I get a sweet gig in the NBA? I suck at basketball-but hey.... There's a % for you-and how about slapping me some majic equality??. Need more people looking like me there, don't we now?? (Why shouldn't their owners/fans demand and expect equality??) Could it be that it's no fun to watch people who suck try and play basketball??

I'd submit that our line of work is much more intolerant of ineptitude or incompetence. Consequences of a screw up are much worse than having to watch boring people who suck try and play a game poorly. Safety is what should matter in aviation. Hiring the best person for the job should be the goal. Other factors should be irrelevant.

Slaphappy
05-15-2018, 10:06 AM
To claim that minority aviators have an easier path to the flight deck is just plain ignorance.

I'm sorry but that's just BS. With all the quotas and policies on diversity an average qualified minority or woman pilot will always get the call. This isn't limited just to aviation, in medical school it's much more pronounced.

http://cdn.almost.thedoctorschannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/medical_school_acceptance_by_race_ethnicity.jpeg

To deny being a minority or woman is an advantage when seeking employment is ridiculous.

ecam
05-15-2018, 10:17 AM
I mentioned a while back I knew of a couple of women who were hired at XXXX back in the day with only temporary commercial certs. 250 hours-and not even a FE license. Both had gotten calls for an interview from airline XXXX without even applying. That airline was actually going down the list of new comm pilots and offering interviews to anyone who seemed like a female. Some had comm certs for other purposes, and had no intention of working for any airline-some just wanted to instruct part time or crop dust, etc..... There are plenty of fine women pilots out there, but I don't think anyone is ready for the kind of flying we do at that experience level.

Your last paragraph is off the mark. Customers and shareholders demand (and deserve) safety and competence. The fun stuff about what people look like should be entirely irrelevant.

Percentages shouldn't matter. If they do, how about I get a sweet gig in the NBA? I suck at basketball-but hey.... There's a % for you-and how about slapping me some majic equality??. Need more people looking like me there, don't we now?? (Why shouldn't their owners/fans demand and expect equality??) Could it be that it's no fun to watch people who suck try and play basketball??

I'd submit that our line of work is much more intolerant of ineptitude or incompetence. Consequences of a screw up are much worse than having to watch boring people who suck try and play a game poorly. Safety is what should matter in aviation. Hiring the best person for the job should be the goal. Other factors should be irrelevant.

A couple of women? Out of 70,000 airline pilots? That's all you've got?

And we are really getting off in the weeds here, but in your example of the NBA, if you're just as good as everyone else, what's the issue? You're inferring you suck at Bball but should be hired because you're a short, fat, nerdy white guy, and that somehow represents airline hiring, for which you've still failed to provide refuting evidence.

You still haven't presented numbers that women/minorities with less qualifications are getting hired before well qualified white males. You're just offering your opinion, and exposing that chip on your shoulder. Every legacy carrier releases hiring stats, and they prove you're FOS.

jcountry
05-15-2018, 10:36 AM
A couple of women? Out of 70,000 airline pilots? That's all you've got?

And we are really getting off in the weeds here, but in your example of the NBA, if you're just as good as everyone else, what's the issue? You're inferring you suck at Bball but should be hired because you're a short, fat, nerdy white guy, and that somehow represents airline hiring, for which you've still failed to provide refuting evidence.

You still haven't presented numbers that women/minorities with less qualifications are getting hired before well qualified white males. You're just offering your opinion, and exposing that chip on your shoulder. Every legacy carrier releases hiring stats, and they prove you're FOS.

Thanks for playing.

You are not interested in facts. I see I'm wasting my time here.

I got better stuff on the agenda.

Goodbye. Fare Thee Well!

ecam
05-15-2018, 10:58 AM
Thanks for playing.

You are not interested in facts. I see I'm wasting my time here.

I got better stuff on the agenda.

Goodbye. Fare Thee Well!

You also suck at listening, reading, and comprehension.

"Thanks for playing".

Shaman
05-15-2018, 01:44 PM
So apparently there's an 800 number for pilot hiring that states

Press 1 if you're Black
Press 2 if you have a vagina
Press #7 if you're Black and have a Vagina to schedule for the next available training class.

I read it on infowars so I am certain this is true.

SmoothLanderJ
05-15-2018, 01:53 PM
I'm sorry but that's just BS. With all the quotas and policies on diversity an average qualified minority or woman pilot will always get the call. This isn't limited just to aviation, in medical school it's much more pronounced.

http://cdn.almost.thedoctorschannel.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/medical_school_acceptance_by_race_ethnicity.jpeg

To deny being a minority or woman is an advantage when seeking employment is ridiculous.

Then why are 50% of African Americans living at or below the poverty line, if they have an advantage gaining employment and opportunities??

A330FoodCritic
05-15-2018, 02:51 PM
So apparently there's an 800 number for pilot hiring that states

Press 1 if you're Black
Press 2 if you have a vagina
Press #7 if you're Black and have a Vagina to schedule for the next available training class.

I read it on infowars so I am certain this is true.

Did you look at the recent new hire class?

https://www.alliedpilots.org/Committees/Membership/NewHire

SmoothLanderJ
05-15-2018, 02:51 PM
:rolleyes:

Slaphappy
05-15-2018, 03:09 PM
Then why are 50% of African Americans living at or below the poverty line, if they have an advantage gaining employment and opportunities??

bad life choices?

Shaman
05-15-2018, 04:07 PM
bad life choices?

Could be that or it could be the defacto apartheid state that existed in much of this country for generations. Or it could be the Murder of many of that community's leaders (lest we never forget MLK, Medgar Evers, et al were murdered for expecting this country to live up to its charter).

Perhaps, maybe.....

Saabs
05-15-2018, 04:47 PM
Did you look at the recent new hire class?

https://www.alliedpilots.org/Committees/Membership/NewHire

I see 2 chicks and maybe 3-4 minorities. Hard to tell sometimes.

A330FoodCritic
05-15-2018, 05:27 PM
I see 2 chicks and maybe 3-4 minorities. Hard to tell sometimes.

Just makes me think this troll is a moron.


So apparently there's an 800 number for pilot hiring that states

Press 1 if you're Black
Press 2 if you have a vagina
Press #7 if you're Black and have a Vagina to schedule for the next available training class.

I read it on infowars so I am certain this is true.

Slaphappy
05-15-2018, 05:49 PM
Could be that or it could be the defacto apartheid state that existed in much of this country for generations. Or it could be the Murder of many of that community's leaders (lest we never forget MLK, Medgar Evers, et al were murdered for expecting this country to live up to its charter).

Perhaps, maybe.....

over 50 years ago.

Saabs
05-15-2018, 06:32 PM
Just makes me think this troll is a moron.

I stopped reading days ago. No matter what side you’re on it’s an unwinnable debate. But griping gets you nowhere when trying to get hired.....

GHOST
05-15-2018, 06:32 PM
over 50 years ago.

A certain demographic of this country was given a 240 year head start. Minorities help build a country that wasn’t designed for us to succeed. I know plenty of black/latino/asian/female pilots still at the regionals waiting for their opportunity. Interesting to note, not one of them has complained or made excuses as to why they have not been given a shot. You read these forums, the majority of the ones making excuses fall into the 95% category. Interesting how that works…

GHOST
05-15-2018, 06:41 PM
I see 2 chicks and maybe 3-4 minorities. Hard to tell sometimes.

Apparently for some here, that’s too many?

Slaphappy
05-15-2018, 08:57 PM
A certain demographic of this country was given a 240 year head start. Minorities help build a country that wasn’t designed for us to succeed. I know plenty of black/latino/asian/female pilots still at the regionals waiting for their opportunity. Interesting to note, not one of them has complained or made excuses as to why they have not been given a shot. You read these forums, the majority of the ones making excuses fall into the 95% category. Interesting how that works…

Plenty of us are first generation, can't use that reason forever.

GHOST
05-15-2018, 09:42 PM
Plenty of us are first generation, can't use that reason forever.

Reading comprehension is key. I don’t know who you are, who you work for, and frankly don’t care. I’ve got my number on the seniority list and am not going anywhere - deal with it. American Airlines will continue to hire the most qualified candidates moving forward regardless of race/gender, etc. Keep preaching that narrative if it helps you sleep at night.

GHOST

Sliceback
05-16-2018, 06:50 AM
86% of ALL ATP’s are white males. That includes all the retired ATP’s. The growth in one group alone has increased by 4%.
So the current candidate pool is probably closer to 80% white male.

Sliceback
05-16-2018, 06:58 AM
“American Airlines will continue to hire the most qualified candidates moving forward regardless of race/gender, etc.“

If that’s a true statement why were they specifically trying to get more candidates from a specific sup group to apply because they weren’t getting enough experienced/qualified candidates?

And in another example they stated they’d hired twice as many from group X then the overall percentage. That doesn’t happen by accident.

They’ve admitted seeking out and hiring, at least in the last, in ways that wouldn’t occur randomly.

And kids of pilots do tend to get a leg up when it comes to getting hired. But even highly regarded employees have had their kid not get hired. So there’s no guarantee. When it comes to the interview process you stand alone.

Inside DEENA
05-16-2018, 09:59 AM
Reading comprehension is key. I don’t know who you are, who you work for, and frankly don’t care. I’ve got my number on the seniority list and am not going anywhere - deal with it. American Airlines will continue to hire the most qualified candidates moving forward regardless of race/gender, etc. Keep preaching that narrative if it helps you sleep at night.

GHOST

22,000+ TT
20,000 PIC
12,000 Tjet
3 Type Ratings (B737, CRJ, CV600/640)
2 decades of 135/121 experience
Perfect Safety Record
No Accidents/Incidents/Violations
4 yr degree

Applications on file for 10+ yrs, updated regularly.

No phone call from AA, UAL, Delta, etc.

Unqualified how, again?

ID

450knotOffice
05-16-2018, 10:18 AM
Reading comprehension is key. I don’t know who you are, who you work for, and frankly don’t care. I’ve got my number on the seniority list and am not going anywhere - deal with it. American Airlines will continue to hire the most qualified candidates moving forward regardless of race/gender, etc. Keep preaching that narrative if it helps you sleep at night.

GHOST

The sentence I highlighted is one of the most comical sentences in this whole thread. You sound like you just quoted a public statement from pretty much EVERY large corporation's Recruitment department.

Almost NO entity hires only the most qualified candidates moving forward. There are so many other variables in play.

Sliceback
05-16-2018, 10:38 AM
22,000+ TT
20,000 PIC
12,000 Tjet
3 Type Ratings (B737, CRJ, CV600/640)
2 decades of 135/121 experience
Perfect Safety Record
No Accidents/Incidents/Violations
4 yr degree

Applications on file for 10+ yrs, updated regularly.

No phone call from AA, UAL, Delta, etc.

Unqualified how, again?

ID

When’s the last time you switched aircraft?
Ever do any union or flight department stuff? What? When?
Ten+ years of applying sounds great until you realize that includes a lot of years when no one was hiring.

flydc
05-16-2018, 11:33 AM
22,000+ TT
20,000 PIC
12,000 Tjet
3 Type Ratings (B737, CRJ, CV600/640)
2 decades of 135/121 experience
Perfect Safety Record
No Accidents/Incidents/Violations
4 yr degree

Applications on file for 10+ yrs, updated regularly.

No phone call from AA, UAL, Delta, etc.

Unqualified how, again?

ID

What have you done, other than fly airplanes, that speaks to who you are as a person? How many job fairs have you been to? When was your last initial? How much volunteer experience do you have? How often have you updated your application? How many letters of recommendation? Do you have a professional appearance? Do you have any experience as an instructor or check airman? Have you held any positions in your union?

Where's the hustle? Anybody can show up to work and fly.. what sets you apart?


Not criticizing you at all. I commend you on 22,000hrs of safe experience. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what they're looking for.

RJCaptin
05-16-2018, 01:09 PM
On a jumpseat on day; Captain was a young minority, FO was white, middle aged, male. The entire flight, it was the F.O without any PIC, degree, (stuff which the captain had) who complained about not being at the big 3 and Southwest.

A330FoodCritic
05-16-2018, 03:54 PM
On a jumpseat on day; Captain was a young minority, FO was white, middle aged, male. The entire flight, it was the F.O without any PIC, degree, (stuff which the captain had) who complained about not being at the big 3 and Southwest.

I don't get the no degree mentality. If 99.99% of the people being hired have a degree, you go get a degree.

jcountry
05-16-2018, 04:31 PM
You also suck at listening, reading, and comprehension.

"Thanks for playing".

Listening?

This is a forum where people communicate in the written word, dumbass.

-Never go full retard.

Gooselives
05-16-2018, 05:20 PM
I don't get the no degree mentality. If 99.99% of the people being hired have a degree, you go get a degree.

AA promotes lack of education especially with this flow mentality. Just sad...can easily tell the difference in the cockpit easily who went and who didnt...judgement and critical thinking lacking....flow promotes laziness and becoming the best pilot one can be!

tizzizzailslf04
05-16-2018, 06:00 PM
Hiring the best person for the job should be the goal. Other factors should be irrelevant.

If they were hired, then the company that hired them felt they were the best person for the job. It sounds like you just can't fathom that the best person for the job was a person of color or a woman and not you.

These whiny white guy threads give me a headache. Some of you truly live in an alternate reality. From now on it should be required that before you come on here and make one of these [email protected]$$ arguments, you must first post your newhire class photo.

Gooselives
05-16-2018, 07:05 PM
If they were hired, then the company that hired them felt they were the best person for the job. It sounds like you just can't fathom that the best person for the job was a person of color or a woman and not you.

These whiny white guy threads give me a headache. Some of you truly live in an alternate reality. From now on it should be required that before you come on here and make one of these [email protected]$$ arguments, you must first post your newhire class photo.

This gives me a headache tooo. They might be the best. I agree, but understand concepts of law, tax breaks, tax credits, kickbacks, tax cuts, affirmative action regulations, and quota regulations and legalities. The world we live in as described by all these posts.

PS: I also spent much time in a library and most were women in there with me in the pursuit of education and betterment. #Goals #Theclimb

Good Luck to All!!!

May the odds be ever in your favour

ecam
05-17-2018, 04:15 AM
Listening?

This is a forum where people communicate in the written word, dumbass.

-Never go full retard.

Wow, now we're in high school. Can't understand why some people can't get hired! :rolleyes:

https://i.imgflip.com/tlnjv.jpg

Frip
05-17-2018, 04:22 AM
AA promotes lack of education especially with this flow mentality. Just sad...can easily tell the difference in the cockpit easily who went and who didnt...judgement and critical thinking lacking....flow promotes laziness and becoming the best pilot one can be!



"Judgement and critical thinking lacking"???

Seen most consistently (not to say universally... ) in Zoomie Tweet/Tanker FAP types.

Flows are universally good experienced airline pilots and collectively no lazier than any other demographic.

My 9th grade English teacher would have ripped my ears clean off my pointy little head for writing something as poorly as the post quoted.

Lack of education making itself apparent indeed.

Learflyer
05-17-2018, 05:35 AM
If they were hired, then the company that hired them felt they were the best person for the job. It sounds like you just can't fathom that the best person for the job was a person of color or a woman and not you.

These whiny white guy threads give me a headache. Some of you truly live in an alternate reality. From now on it should be required that before you come on here and make one of these [email protected]$$ arguments, you must first post your newhire class photo.

Haha. "POC." When the heck did that PC hor$e $hit start? Sounds like you're the racist one. Have your own name for a person with different skin color?

Name User
05-17-2018, 05:51 AM
I haven't flown with a woman yet who wasn't an asset to AA. At my regional yes there were a couple with "questionable" abilities. But those at mainline so far have been aswesome and honestly waaaay better to be with than these blowhard racist far right white dudes down in DFW. We do need more women but I definitely agree it would burn if I saw a bunch of young women getting on over experienced guys, unfortunately that is reality these days.

at6d
05-17-2018, 08:23 AM
What about the blowhard racist far left white dudes?

Frip
05-17-2018, 08:49 AM
What about the blowhard racist far left white dudes?

They are vastly outnumbered by the other

Sliceback
05-17-2018, 09:36 AM
I don't get the no degree mentality. If 99.99% of the people being hired have a degree, you go get a degree.

It’s only been an almost 100% guaranteed requirement for 40-50 yrs at the major airlines. So don’t be too harsh on them if it snuck up in them.

Sliceback
05-17-2018, 10:25 AM
I haven't flown with a woman yet who wasn't an asset to AA. At my regional yes there were a couple with "questionable" abilities. But those at mainline so far have been aswesome and honestly waaaay better to be with than these blowhard racist far right white dudes down in DFW. We do need more women but I definitely agree it would burn if I saw a bunch of young women getting on over experienced guys, unfortunately that is reality these days.

Like any group there are low performers. Several have taken early retirement, some with a strong nudge from the company.
And some of the best pilots I’ve flown with have been female. The span of ability is from outstanding to really weak.

Show up, do job. Background doesn’t matter. Can you perform today?

RJCaptin
05-17-2018, 10:52 AM
Didn’t American hire a double minority (race and gender) who never took any jumpseaters? Best of the best....

Inside DEENA
05-17-2018, 12:32 PM
When’s the last time you switched aircraft?
Ever do any union or flight department stuff? What? When?
Ten+ years of applying sounds great until you realize that includes a lot of years when no one was hiring.

Switching aircraft is not an option, unless that means switching carriers. (single type fleet)

Union LEC chairman and FO rep, 2001-2003.

I do realize that I fall into what is referred to as the 'lost RJ decade'. What can you do?

ID

Inside DEENA
05-17-2018, 12:44 PM
What have you done, other than fly airplanes, that speaks to who you are as a person? How many job fairs have you been to? When was your last initial? How much volunteer experience do you have? How often have you updated your application? How many letters of recommendation? Do you have a professional appearance? Do you have any experience as an instructor or check airman? Have you held any positions in your union?

Where's the hustle? Anybody can show up to work and fly.. what sets you apart?


Not criticizing you at all. I commend you on 22,000hrs of safe experience. I'm just trying to give you an idea of what they're looking for.

Not taking your comments as criticism, far from it. Just looking for input, like many others.

Stopped going to job fairs, I've got a family to support and frankly can't afford WIA or OBAP conventions. Volunteering? I work with my local Science Olympiad team, but that's about it. Between work and commuting, that leaves little time for family. If that's a requirement now (volunteerism), then I guess I'll stay at my regional. My (little) time with my family is more important to me.

Personal appearance, well you should see my dry cleaning bill!:D

I've done union work (LEC chairman and FO rep). Would love to be in the training department, but that door is closed to me, apparently (although not for want of trying).

Applications are updated every two weeks. Plenty of LOR's. Last initial started in Sept.2000, with upgrade in June 2003. Typed in 737 in July 2006.

Feel free to PM me if you have any further suggestions.

ID

PRS Guitars
05-17-2018, 02:33 PM
Feel free to PM me if you have any further suggestions.

ID

Since this thread deals with diversity, I will say that one area where AA is absolutely not diverse is in hiring OTS. Unfortunately, they hire very few civilians OTS (I think 60 last year), so the numbers aren’t on your side. I wish it were different. Keep trying, but by all means make sure you are applying elsewhere.

A330FoodCritic
05-17-2018, 02:58 PM
Stopped going to job fairs,


I got hired at a job fair, though it was a regional, got hired on the spot.

Damn, that was over 20 years ago, getting old.

justfun
05-18-2018, 06:05 AM
Here is a link to a story that is germane to this topic.

Professor rebuked after vowing to boost female students' grades to offset gender imbalances | Fox News (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/05/18/professor-rebuked-after-vowing-to-boost-female-students-grades-to-offset-gender-imbalances.html)

It shows that common sense needs to be in play here.

Learflyer
05-18-2018, 06:46 AM
There seems to be a fascination with creating an equal balance in the workplace between men and women. Go to LinkedIn. They’re obsessed with it what with endless articles and reposts of stories identifying the lack of women in aviation (among other professions as well). Why force women in to things they’re not interested in or men into things they’re not interested in?

This gender gap conversation has to stop.

misterpretzel
05-18-2018, 12:43 PM
Didn’t American hire a double minority (race and gender) who never took any jumpseaters? Best of the best....

Please excuse my ignorance- I'm not in the industry. Do airlines prefer and/or actively choose to hire women/minorities over I guess... white males?

RJCaptin
05-18-2018, 01:18 PM
Please excuse my ignorance- I'm not in the industry. Do airlines prefer and/or actively choose to hire women/minorities over I guess... white males?
Double sided. Under qualified white males complaining, while legacies jump on diversity hires. Qualified applicants are called untrainable yet the are good enough to fly the same passengers at a lower payscale.

Meatball
05-18-2018, 02:15 PM
Please excuse my ignorance- I'm not in the industry. Do airlines prefer and/or actively choose to hire women/minorities over I guess... white males?

Yes! Of course!

One need only to look at the street hires who went from Envoy to AA ahead of the flow. Half the airline applied to AA through the front door. There may be one or two, but I don't know a single black or female pilot who applied to AA from Envoy who was not hired off the street, but I can think of almost twenty who were. I know several white males who were hired too but every single one of them were AA interns before flying for Eagle/Envoy.

This is just the way things are these days and it's not only the airlines.

Gooselives
05-18-2018, 04:29 PM
Double sided. Over qualified white males complaining, while legacies jump on under qualified diversity hires. Qualified applicants are called untrainable yet the are good enough to fly the same passengers at a lower payscale.

Fixed it!!!

A330FoodCritic
05-18-2018, 04:53 PM
You ever consider companies might find it harder to train a guy with a gazillion hours?

Lots of young White FO's get hired before older high time captains.

RJCaptin
05-18-2018, 06:47 PM
You ever consider companies might find it harder to train a guy with a gazillion hours?

Lots of young White FO's get hired before older high time captains.
Yet, it is up to the gazillion hour captain to teach the F.O how to land with a 20knot crosswind.

Gooselives
05-18-2018, 07:30 PM
Yes! Of course!

One need only to look at the street hires who went from Envoy to AA ahead of the flow. Half the airline applied to AA through the front door. There may be one or two, but I don't know a single black or female pilot who applied to AA from Envoy who was not hired off the street, but I can think of almost twenty who were. I know several white males who were hired too but every single one of them were AA interns before flying for Eagle/Envoy.



This is just the way things are these days and it's not only the airlines.

I think i am going to be sickkkkkkkkkkkkkk

A330FoodCritic
05-18-2018, 07:50 PM
Yet, it is up to the gazillion hour captain to teach the F.O how to land with a 20knot crosswind.



Do you have a gazillion hours? Stuck at a regional?

Learflyer
05-19-2018, 05:07 AM
Do you have a gazillion hours? Stuck at a regional?

Why are you being such a little twit to us gazillion hour guys?

GHOST
05-19-2018, 05:58 AM
You ever consider companies might find it harder to train a guy with a gazillion hours?

Lots of young White FO's get hired before older high time captains.

How can it be that I see all these young white FOs around LAX, DFW and MIA Ops? I thought us minorities were taking all of their jobs?

A330FoodCritic
05-19-2018, 06:20 AM
Why are you being such a little twit to us gazillion hour guys?

I was responding to this:



Originally Posted by RJCaptin

Double sided. Over qualified white males complaining, while legacies jump on under qualified diversity hires. Qualified applicants are called untrainable yet the are good enough to fly the same passengers at a lower payscale.

GHOST
05-19-2018, 06:29 AM
330,

I know, i was being sarcastic. Trying to keep with the white male oppression narrative throughout this thread.

A330FoodCritic
05-19-2018, 06:35 AM
Why are you being such a little twit to us gazillion hour guys?

Oh, it's not me, I was just saying maybe some of the hiring gurus might think some of you are stuck in your ways.

GHOST
05-19-2018, 08:58 AM
Yes! Of course!

One need only to look at the street hires who went from Envoy to AA ahead of the flow. Half the airline applied to AA through the front door. There may be one or two, but I don't know a single black or female pilot who applied to AA from Envoy who was not hired off the street, but I can think of almost twenty who were. I know several white males who were hired too but every single one of them were AA interns before flying for Eagle/Envoy.

This is just the way things are these days and it's not only the airlines.

Stop being so dramatic. You make it seem as if all they need to do to get hired is apply outside of the flow. That is not the case, as there are plenty of minority pilots still at Envoy waiting for an opportunity. You guys are purposely telling half truths and omitting facts that do not fit your narrative.

123494
05-19-2018, 09:33 AM
How can it be that I see all these young white FOs around LAX, DFW and MIA Ops? I thought us minorities were taking all of their jobs?

Lots of flows in their early 30s and soon to be late 20s.

Slaphappy
05-19-2018, 04:15 PM
Stop being so dramatic. You make it seem as if all they need to do to get hired is apply outside of the flow. That is not the case, as there are plenty of minority pilots still at Envoy waiting for an opportunity. You guys are purposely telling half truths and omitting facts that do not fit your narrative.

Facts do support the narrative.

Sliceback
05-19-2018, 05:45 PM
Stop being so dramatic.
.
.
You guys are purposely telling half truths and omitting facts that do not fit your narrative.

Knives cut both ways.

Gooselives
05-19-2018, 06:13 PM
Lots of flows in their early 30s and soon to be late 20s.

Loooks like years for 20’s...for envoy others are already sending them

busdriver12
05-19-2018, 08:04 PM
Stop being so dramatic. You make it seem as if all they need to do to get hired is apply outside of the flow. That is not the case, as there are plenty of minority pilots still at Envoy waiting for an opportunity. You guys are purposely telling half truths and omitting facts that do not fit your narrative.

Come on, man, it's tough competing for those 90%+ white guy slots. Those tiny percentage of women and minorities are taking all the jobs.:cool:

Joachim
05-19-2018, 11:07 PM
It is interesting that we tend to focus on minorities when most slots go to flow without the need to interview. Remember these flow agreements are in place to supply pilots to sub par employers who would otherwise have a difficult time recruiting.

Gooselives
05-20-2018, 09:10 AM
It is interesting that we tend to focus on minorities when most slots go to flow without the need to interview. Remember these flow agreements are in place to supply pilots to sub par employers who would otherwise have a difficult time recruiting.

Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

mukalel
05-20-2018, 10:09 AM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

Where is this information from?? I have heard nothing about the flows being reduced.. infact i have been told by numerous AA guys the only way i can probably get to AA in this decade is realistically thru a flow.. ive been told i need to leave my 100k job which is still underpayed for he equipment I fly and go to envoy if AA is my ultimate goal.. quite a hard move to justify granted we dont know how the industry will be in 5 years..

Frip
05-20-2018, 11:22 AM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

Whoever told you that...

Do not ever believe another thing they tell you:rolleyes:

TransWorld
05-20-2018, 12:32 PM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

Where are you getting that outlandish, fake news?

Battlinbear21
05-20-2018, 01:15 PM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

Lol what? You’re implying that AA is done running new hire classes then. Flow might stop when the contacts expire. In 8 years. Hell, lil old peed on will flow 70 just from their list.... I’m curious if they may merge the WO into a single regional. They keep saying and have said it will Never happen. Only Jerry Jones does the opposite of what he says more than airline mgt at times.

Meatball
05-20-2018, 01:55 PM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

BS!! Let me guess, CNN?

123494
05-20-2018, 02:05 PM
AA isn’t hiring if the flow stops. What I think he is referring to is how Envoy can meter their flow based on operational necessity. Not sure how that works exactly, though.

Gooselives
05-20-2018, 02:07 PM
Whoever told you that...

Do not ever believe another thing they tell you:rolleyes:

Envoy is currently flowing 29 a month. In less than 1.5 years the flow cuts in half to 15 a month or less with piedmont and psa barely sending at the most critical time that AA needs max hiring due to the climax of retirements. Do the math..lots of off the street hires soooooon....hope for allllllll

TransWorld
05-20-2018, 02:16 PM
Envoy is currently flowing 29 a month. In less than 1.5 years the flow cuts in half to 15 a month or less with piedmont and psa barely sending at the most critical time that AA needs max hiring due to the climax of retirements. Do the math..lots of off the street hires soooooon....hope for allllllll

If you think that AA and Envoy will not renegociate that 15 pilots per month, you are naive.

At that rate, with no attrition, flow would be 14 years. Laughable, when hiring across all the majors soon will be about 5 years for all the regional pilots each year.

Milksheikh
05-20-2018, 07:20 PM
Flow is heavily reduced soon...only send 135 a year...meaning almost 800-900 slots available for ots...hope for all...sorry flowrs’

..then..

Envoy is currently flowing 29 a month. In less than 1.5 years the flow cuts in half to 15 a month or less with piedmont and psa barely sending at the most critical time that AA needs max hiring due to the climax of retirements. Do the math..lots of off the street hires soooooon....hope for allllllll

You gotta be trollin. 15/month is still 180 just from envoy. psa is going to 10/month sometime this year.. thats 300/year right there plus another 70ish from piedmont.. lets call it 350 for flows per year. sounds slightly more accurate than "135" a year.

Just know in a class of 40 from AA only about 2-3 will be pure ots civilians for quite a while.

TransWorld
05-21-2018, 12:23 AM
..then..



You gotta be trollin. 15/month is still 180 just from envoy. psa is going to 10/month sometime this year.. thats 300/year right there plus another 70ish from piedmont.. lets call it 350 for flows per year. sounds slightly more accurate than "135" a year.

Just know in a class of 40 from AA only about 2-3 will be pure ots civilians for quite a while.

Let’s follow through with your numbers. Last year, in 2017 there were 225 OTS Mil. So added together, 350+225=575.

Plan for this year is 900 hires (will go up in a few years as retirements hit their peak.) 900-575=325 OTS Civ. With 25 classes for the year (No new class starts Christmastime), that would be 13 OTS Civ. In each class.

This assumes constant OTS Mil. More importantly, currently 29 per month is the flow from Envoy, not 15 per month. That is 29-15= 14 more per month. That is 7 more per class (roughly, with 2 classes most months). That means about 13-7=6 per class is OTS, not 2-3 per class.

What you both miss is market forces pushing AA and Envoy renegociating the flow number of 15 upward. (See my point above.) Further, the hire rate will go up from 900 in just a few years.

Bottom line, two points. Flow will not be 15 per month, due to market forces. OTS Civ. will still grow to more than 2-3 per class, but will not be a huge percentage of hires. That is what my crystal ball says. It has good accuracy.

Sliceback
05-21-2018, 04:04 AM
Come on, man, it's tough competing for those 90%+ white guy slots. Those tiny percentage of women and minorities are taking all the jobs.:cool:

72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities.

Unfortunately the estimate of white male supply pool is closer to 80%. Can you imagine the uproar, or perhaps law suits, if 8% was taken from the female/minority supply pool? Or if those groups were required to be hired at 90% of their expected hiring numbers?

busdriver12
05-21-2018, 06:18 AM
72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities.

Unfortunately the estimate of white male supply pool is closer to 80%. Can you imagine the uproar, or perhaps law suits, if 8% was taken from the female/minority supply pool? Or if those groups were required to be hired at 90% of their expected hiring numbers?

And where, exactly, did you find those statistics?

Sliceback
05-21-2018, 01:56 PM
And where, exactly, did you find those statistics?

The company. aapilots.

Sliceback
05-21-2018, 02:00 PM
And where, exactly, did you find those statistics?

2015 (?) was 16% female when the supply pool was 8%. “We hired twice as many” and provided the the 8%/16% statistic. WAI new hire candidate briefing.

busdriver12
05-21-2018, 09:38 PM
2015 (?) was 16% female when the supply pool was 8%. “We hired twice as many” and provided the the 8%/16% statistic. WAI new hire candidate briefing.

Why don't you link your source? You quoted these statistics, "72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities." What you are claiming is purely heresay, and now you're responding with 2015 statistics that you claimed you heard.

You know what they say about statistics. 41% of statistics are completely made up.:cool:

ShyGuy
05-21-2018, 10:21 PM
And as they say, there are 3 kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.

Saabs
05-22-2018, 05:45 AM
Why don't you link your source? You quoted these statistics, "72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities." What you are claiming is purely heresay, and now you're responding with 2015 statistics that you claimed you heard.

You know what they say about statistics. 41% of statistics are completely made up.:cool:

Stats are all on aapilots.com like he mentioned.

stillageek
05-22-2018, 05:52 AM
How many were counted twice..a minority woman for example. Is she counted only as a woman or as a woman and as a minority this throwing off the stats?

busdriver12
05-22-2018, 06:34 AM
Stats are all on aapilots.com like he mentioned.

That's not useful unless you link something that is actually readable.

At bare minimum, a specific quote, copy and paste, that one could google. Sincerely doubt aa listed it as, "72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities." And how many of the hires were from flow, not just off the street?

busdriver12
05-22-2018, 06:35 AM
And as they say, there are 3 kinds of people in the world: those who can count and those who can't.

Good one:D

Sliceback
05-24-2018, 09:26 AM
That's not useful unless you link something that is actually readable.

At bare minimum, a specific quote, copy and paste, that one could google. Sincerely doubt aa listed it as, "72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities." And how many of the hires were from flow, not just off the street?

You're correct. It doesn't list non "minority" or "female" new hires. So 72% were of a group other than "minority" or "female".

The link is readable by employees using their employee sign in.

Figuring out the actual percentage of 'minorities' in the industry's candidate pool is difficult. Unless every organization uses the same definition of 'minority' it's hard to compare. Female is much easier.

Saabs
05-24-2018, 10:17 AM
That's not useful unless you link something that is actually readable.

At bare minimum, a specific quote, copy and paste, that one could google. Sincerely doubt aa listed it as, "72% white guys in 2017. 11% women, 17% minorities." And how many of the hires were from flow, not just off the street?
I don’t think most people want to post something off an internal company website. If you work here use your login and find out for yourself.

And AA listed it exactly like that. Percentages and everything. Pie charts too.

dynap09
05-24-2018, 11:41 AM
That's not useful unless you link something that is actually readable.


Actually - the information is useful - just you don't like it because it's not in the perfect format you want. Get hired by AA, and convince them to spend money doing all the breakdowns and definitions you want.

Seriously, people are being helpful here and folks are like that is not useful? Actually, it is useful, it gives a feel for what aa is saying about this.

Santini
05-30-2018, 11:02 AM
A certain demographic of this country was given a 240 year head start. Minorities help build a country that wasn’t designed for us to succeed.




LMFAO. If you can’t achieve success here then you’ll never achieve it anywhere. Spare us the BS and keep it at least within eyesight of reality, please. America was built for anyone to succeed. If it weren’t you wouldn’t be posting on this site.


American-born blacks may have a problem with success because a significant percentage of them have been conditioned to be a bunch of bitter, whining, excuse-making crybabies—and like crabs in a barrel they attack those who try to climb out. Why work hard when it’s easier to whine? Bring someone here from a place like Nigeria and they rocket to the top—despite American blacks having their own head start. Triumph of the uncluttered mind.

Everyone has challenges. Trading one type of discrimination for another is just as immoral as the original crime. In the end America is the land of opportunity for anyone of any color. I dare you to show me a nation where blacks have more opportunity than here—even those run by blacks.

GTFO.

And yes, being a minority gives you a leg up over an equally-qualified (and sometimes better-qualified) non-minority candidate. We see this repeatedly. It’s just as wrong as the reverse no matter how you slice it.

Whatever. That’s neither here nor there in my case, I’m sure. I’ll keep plugging away and wind up where I wind up with a smile on my face, thanking God every day along the way for making me an American. Having lived in lots of other places, there’s nowhere I’d rather be than here.

FRNTOFWAVE
05-30-2018, 01:42 PM
American-born blacks may have a problem with success because a significant percentage of them have been conditioned to be a bunch of bitter, whining, excuse-making crybabies—and like crabs in a barrel they attack those who try to climb out. Why work hard when it’s easier to whine? Bring someone here from a place like Nigeria and they rocket to the top—despite American blacks having their own head start. Triumph of the uncluttered mind.


There is a reason you are on the outside looking in. Looks like AA Pilot Recruitment is doing a great job of weeding out potentially bad apples.

Santini
05-30-2018, 01:48 PM
There is a reason you are on the outside looking in.

Yeah. I’m “average”. (Eyeroll)

I’m also right, so kindly KMA (and take your virtue signaling, America hating, false superiority and jam it). I am glad I don’t have to suffer working with tools like you. If buying into your regressive nonsense and excuse making is what it takes to get on at AA then forget it.

I make $150K a year flying less in that time than you do in a month. I’m not on the “outside looking in” by any definition. You can keep your lifestyle. I’ve got it made where I am. Thanks for reminding me.

(And thanks to all who actually contributed something of substance here. It is appreciated.)



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