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View Full Version : A typical day is....


AV810
04-27-2018, 02:57 PM
I'm trying to understand what a typical day will be like for a new hire F.O. at AWI. It appears that on an average day, crews fly about four one-hour legs. But I'm wondering over how many hours of the day those four flights are spread. I see Flightaware light up with AWI planes at 6:00 am, and planes are still flying late into the evening. What is the length of a crew's typical "shift" from beginning to end of duty?


lukeh99
04-27-2018, 07:42 PM
I'm trying to understand what a typical day will be like for a new hire F.O. at AWI. It appears that on an average day, crews fly about four one-hour legs. But I'm wondering over how many hours of the day those four flights are spread. I see Flightaware light up with AWI planes at 6:00 am, and planes are still flying late into the evening. What is the length of a crew's typical "shift" from beginning to end of duty?

I don't know that there is a typical day, but you usually have 30 minutes to an hour between flights. Keep in mind you are paid for half your duty day no matter how much actual flying you do. So a 12 hour duty day with 2 hours of flying pays 6 hours. Given this duty rig I wouldn't worry so much about what a typical day looks like from a pay perspective since you are always protected. This is a massive benefit of our contract. You will also earn a minimum of 3 hours per day no matter what you fly so a 1 hour flight to an overnight pays 3 hours. You are also limited by FAA rules for how long you can fly and remain on duty in a day. You can Google FAR117 for the details on that.

Also: I would say 3 legs a day is average. Plenty of 1 leg days and a number of 4 and some 5 leg days.

T28driver
04-27-2018, 07:48 PM
Minor correction to the above: if itís a late show time or early finish with one leg, it may qualify as a ďno min dayĒ scenario which would not pay 3 hours.


AV810
04-28-2018, 04:01 AM
[what a typical day looks like from a pay perspective]

Actually, I'm trying to understand a typical day from a "work" prospective. Your reference to FAR117 pulled up a good ALPA document that will probably cover much of my question : http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/committees/ftdt/Part-117-Flight-Time-Limitations-and-Rest-Requirements.pdf

Still, it looks like a 12 to 13 hour duty day is permissible with a 4-leg trip starting at 6:00 or 7:00 am. Is it typical to be on duty for 12 to 13 hours in a day? Or does AWI try to avoid paying trip rigs by keeping your duty time to 2X your flight time?

[if itís a late show time or early finish]

I think this is getting to the point of what I am trying to ask. How many hours is a "regular" duty day? One that doesn't involved either a "late show" or "early finish." I realize they vary, but on regular days, how many hours of duty do you guys typically expect?

T28driver
04-28-2018, 04:19 AM
[what a typical day looks like from a pay perspective]

Actually, I'm trying to understand a typical day from a "work" prospective. Your reference to FAR117 pulled up a good ALPA document that will probably cover much of my question : http://www3.alpa.org/portals/alpa/committees/ftdt/Part-117-Flight-Time-Limitations-and-Rest-Requirements.pdf

Still, it looks like a 12 to 13 hour duty day is permissible with a 4-leg trip starting at 6:00 or 7:00 am. Is it typical to be on duty for 12 to 13 hours in a day? Or does AWI try to avoid paying trip rigs by keeping your duty time to 2X your flight time?

[if itís a late show time or early finish]

I think this is getting to the point of what I am trying to ask. How many hours is a "regular" duty day? One that doesn't involved either a "late show" or "early finish." I realize they vary, but on regular days, how many hours of duty do you guys typically expect?


The way our schedules are built right now, expect to be on duty for 10-12 hours at least 2 out of 4 days on a trip. You will probably have at least one 5 leg day. We also have plenty of long overnights, so you will probably have at least one 18 hour plus layover.

AV810
04-28-2018, 04:42 AM
[The way our schedules are built right now, expect to be on duty for 10-12 hours at least 2 out of 4 days on a trip. You will probably have at least one 5 leg day. We also have plenty of long overnights, so you will probably have at least one 18 hour plus layover.]


Great answer, thanks! Which leads to next question (sorry, that's how it is when you're a newbie :rolleyes:): I assume I should expect roughly five 3 or 4-day trips per month. That makes 18-20 duty days. Then, being newbie scum, I have to commute to MKE the night before and probably home the day after (since the commute is a 2-legger). So now I'm on duty about 20 days and commuting about 10 days per month, meaning I get days home only on months with 31 days? Is that close to reality for my first year, or am I missing something?

4600
04-28-2018, 06:48 AM
[The way our schedules are built right now, expect to be on duty for 10-12 hours at least 2 out of 4 days on a trip. You will probably have at least one 5 leg day. We also have plenty of long overnights, so you will probably have at least one 18 hour plus layover.]


Great answer, thanks! Which leads to next question (sorry, that's how it is when you're a newbie :rolleyes:): I assume I should expect roughly five 3 or 4-day trips per month. That makes 18-20 duty days. Then, being newbie scum, I have to commute to MKE the night before and probably home the day after (since the commute is a 2-legger). So now I'm on duty about 20 days and commuting about 10 days per month, meaning I get days home only on months with 31 days? Is that close to reality for my first year, or am I missing something?

I have not seen the MKE lines but I would hope you could hold some computability on one end. First year and being Jr is rough but with how seniority at ZW is improving you should be able to move bases and or hold a better line quickly. I always planned on having four trips of four days each with your schedule usually being 4 on followed by 3 off for the month. Otherwise its work days 1-4 go home the morning of day 5, all day at home day 6, commute in the night of day 7. Rinse and repeat.

A couple of tips
1. If you get stuck with no commutability you can always look for flying on day 7 (the day before your next trip starts) that you can pick up that ends in domicile (MKE) it pays 1.5 or 2 times the rate AND it makes it harder to jr man you at the end of your trip.
2. Try and trade for trips in pen time that may be more commutable out of ORD or IAD. The company may be less likely to approve this so be opportunistic. If they are really short on some days you have off put in a request to pick up flying and package your trio swaps in. for example.

You are scheduled to fly this schedule that is in-commutable on both ends out of MKE.
May 3-7
May 11-14
May18-21
May 25-28

you found a couple of trips out of ORD that you like on May 11-14 and May 25-28 however your trade requested was denied "lack of compassion and understanding on my part PG"

a couple days later the company is really short over integration May 1-3 and is offering critical pay for those days. You find a 2 day trip in MKE May 2-3 and add a request and include text like this.

" I am willing to add this two day trip if you will approve these two trades as well" and submit the same two trade earlier denied. If they are desperate it often works.

ask the guys that you are flying with for advice. The are a very knowledgeable group.

Make the Admiral proud.

DiveAndDrive
04-28-2018, 07:37 AM
That PG comment has me rolling. Unfortunately, it's so true.

lukeh99
04-28-2018, 08:00 AM
Still, it looks like a 12 to 13 hour duty day is permissible with a 4-leg trip starting at 6:00 or 7:00 am. Is it typical to be on duty for 12 to 13 hours in a day?

You will work plenty of 12-14 hour duty days. This is the airline industry. It happens at Air Wisconsin. It happens at United and Delta. Itís just how things operate. You will also work plenty of 4 hour days. Some days you will spend the whole day at a hotel and work 0 hours. You can probably count on at least 2 long duty days per 4 day trip.

Or does AWI try to avoid paying trip rigs by keeping your duty time to 2X your flight time.

You said trip rig but Iím going to assume you meant duty rig since trip rig has little to do with how long the duty days are.

Air Wisconsin does avoid paying duty rigs. Thatís the whole point of duty rigs. Pilots want to make sure we get compensated for the time we spend on duty. It is an incentive for the company to build productive trips. If you are on duty for 12 hours they are going to do their best to make sure you had 6 hours of actual flying in the 12 hour period so they donít have to pay you for sitting in the airport watching Netflix. If you are on duty for 8 hours they will do their best to make sure you flew at least 4. They couldnít care less how long you are on duty except as that relates to how much flying you did during that period on duty.

For what itís worth, I donít know anyone who care how long their duty days are. Sure itís a bit annoying when you see that today is a 14 hour day and you donít feel like doing anything. But itís built into the lifestyle of flying for an airline. Every day is totally different from the last and you will have easy days and hard days.

I realize they vary, but on regular days, how many hours of duty do you guys typically expect?


Again, there is literally not an answer to this question besides zero to what you see in the FAR 117 Limits. On average maybe 9 hours? My first 4 day in May has the following duty days:

Day 1: 9 hrs
Day 2: 6 hrs
Day 3: 11 hrs
Day 4: 5 hrs

My second 4 day is: 9,9,9,6 hrs
Third: 8,11,5,7

The first two MKE 4 day trips in open time:
6,9,11,8
5,5,10,9

AV810
04-28-2018, 09:58 AM
I see that after checking out in the CRJ, I'll need a type rating in the bid and scheduling system. If I'm based out of MKE, is it then possible to occasionally end my duty time at ORD or IAD with this creative trading of which you speak? Either one offers a much better commute home.

DarkSideMoon
04-28-2018, 12:11 PM
I see that after checking out in the CRJ, I'll need a type rating in the bid and scheduling system. If I'm based out of MKE, is it then possible to occasionally end my duty time at ORD or IAD with this creative trading of which you speak? Either one offers a much better commute home.

Don't bank on it. Plan on the worst case scenario of uncommutable Milwaukee lines and hopefully you'll be pleasantly surprised a few times. Don't take the job expecting that creative bargaining with scheduling will bail you out on a regular basis or you'll end up very frustrated. Chicago shouldn'ttake long to hold as a reserve and would probably be better than MKE as a lineholder but everything is subject to change.

lukeh99
04-28-2018, 12:58 PM
I see that after checking out in the CRJ, I'll need a type rating in the bid and scheduling system. If I'm based out of MKE, is it then possible to occasionally end my duty time at ORD or IAD with this creative trading of which you speak? Either one offers a much better commute home.
I mean no disrespect here, but are you sure working for an airline is what you want to do?

stroopwaffle
04-28-2018, 04:00 PM
I see that after checking out in the CRJ, I'll need a type rating in the bid and scheduling system. If I'm based out of MKE, is it then possible to occasionally end my duty time at ORD or IAD with this creative trading of which you speak? Either one offers a much better commute home.

Maybe when we are much more properly staffed.

I can still remember when I used to be able to drop a last turn or leg in a domicile so I could get home, but it seems like a faint memory these days. We will need to be much more fat on staffing before drops and swaps can be relied on for commutability.

T28driver
04-28-2018, 04:23 PM
Maybe when we are much more properly staffed.

I can still remember when I used to be able to drop a last turn or leg in a domicile so I could get home, but it seems like a faint memory these days. We will need to be much more fat on staffing before drops and swaps can be relied on for commutability.

What’s this “drop” thing you speak of? It sounds useful. Did they go extinct along with this mythical “reserve” pilot I keep hearing about?

AV810
04-29-2018, 01:03 AM
[I mean no disrespect here, but are you sure working for an airline is what you want to do?]

That is precisely why I'm asking these questions up front.

stroopwaffle
04-29-2018, 03:50 AM
What’s this “drop” thing you speak of? It sounds useful. Did they go extinct along with this mythical “reserve” pilot I keep hearing about?

It has become something us "old timers" talk about now.

"Back when I was on the 146 flying to Aspen we were able to drop turns, those were the days"

JeffW85
04-29-2018, 02:28 PM
It has become something us "old timers" talk about now.

"Back when I was on the 146 flying to Aspen we were able to drop turns, those were the days"
I think the last time I was able to drop a turn was probably Christmas morning 2010-ish. Has anyone even tried lately? 😂

lukeh99
04-29-2018, 02:55 PM
[I mean no disrespect here, but are you sure working for an airline is what you want to do?]

That is precisely why I'm asking these questions up front.

I get it. You are doing the right thing by asking questions.

airlinepilot.life has some pretty good discussions on general pilot schedule questions and might be a good resource.

DarkSideMoon
04-29-2018, 03:07 PM
[I mean no disrespect here, but are you sure working for an airline is what you want to do?]

That is precisely why I'm asking these questions up front.

I think you've just found out that living in base is very important to you. I'd make that a priority in the airlines you're researching.

AV810
04-30-2018, 12:22 AM
[airlinepilot.life]

Informative site. Thanks for the tip!