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View Full Version : Q400 Failues


FlyingDreaming
04-29-2018, 12:06 PM
Horizon now has a 60 to 70% failure rate on MV and LOE for the Q400. This canít be blamed on new inexperienced pilots.
Experienced Captains are failing also.


rickair7777
04-29-2018, 12:10 PM
Horizon now has a 60 to 70% failure rate on MV and LOE for the Q400. This canít be blamed on new inexperienced pilots.
Experienced Captains are failing also.

Not for long... if that's true the FAA will be all over them.

snackysmores
04-29-2018, 12:58 PM
I haven't heard of this.


word302
04-29-2018, 01:07 PM
Horizon now has a 60 to 70% failure rate on MV and LOE for the Q400. This canít be blamed on new inexperienced pilots.
Experienced Captains are failing also.

Good way to keep people from moving on?

WhiteH2O
04-29-2018, 06:50 PM
I'm going to go ahead and wait for a reputable source for this one. I don't think the claim holds water. The Q pass rate was pretty high just a few short months ago, I really doubt it has taken such a turn for the worse.

boschpilot
04-29-2018, 06:55 PM
It's the training department. Many people know why this is. I don't believe it's intentionally designed to keep people there but it may be having that effect. Don't hold your breath waiting for that reputable source or the FAA to shake things up.

FlyingDreaming
04-29-2018, 08:30 PM
Ask the unions training department they are well aware CQ, MV and LOE failures and the FAA has threatened to revoke the AQP program

FlyingDreaming
04-29-2018, 08:45 PM
This post is for those interviewing or pending a start date

Refuse the Q and tell them you want the 175 and save the hassle

Klsytakesit
04-29-2018, 09:42 PM
Horizon now has a 60 to 70% failure rate on MV and LOE for the Q400. This canít be blamed on new inexperienced pilots.
Experienced Captains are failing also.

Zero chance that this is true!

FlyingDreaming
04-29-2018, 10:17 PM
Zero chance that this is true!

30 second overspeed on flaps

landing on a taxiway

right???? hahaha

Stinger6
04-30-2018, 04:21 AM
The title of the thread isn't even spelled correctly. It's not "failue." I believe you mean to spell it "disgruntled." Or perhaps "unprepared?" Certainly it's "trolling," in any event.

Griever
04-30-2018, 07:32 AM
It's the training department. Many people know why this is.

Surely you don't mean to sound like it's the training dept's fault that people can't pass?

BrewCity
04-30-2018, 03:41 PM
Surely you don't mean to sound like it's the training dept's fault that people can't pass?

If 60% - 70% of new hires are failing either the training department or hiring department is at fault.

snackysmores
04-30-2018, 06:56 PM
I believe there was a large upswing in Q400 fails when the company switched to their Brad Lambert approved SuperSaver(tm) CBT course they just tossed at the new hires and shortened the ground school to 4 DAYS. But look at the savings!

The training department was vehemently opposed to it but was told to go pound sand by management. They are an absolute group of rock stars with decades of experience on the dash8 (all models) and they were effectively hamstrung overnight.

In combination with that, we drastically lowered our hiring standards and would literally take anyone who was qualified on paper. We probably still do. "Just fill classes" were the orders given by BL. Well, some of the people we've hired can't even use an iPad correctly. The Q400 program at Horizon Air is the most challenging airplane and flight operation an airline pilot could ever experience in their career, and we threw these poor [email protected] into the sea with cement shoes and expected them to tread water in a very short amount of time.

Another "perfect storm" summoned and facilitated by corporate greed.

The next perfect storm? Street captains on the Q400 with no experience paired with a new hire and flying on a really bad winter day.

Excargodog
04-30-2018, 07:29 PM
The next perfect storm? Street captains on the Q400 with no experience paired with a new hire and flying on a really bad winter day.

I used to live in Spokane. The ice fog at GEG was sort of notorious. You might be in for interesting times, in the Chinese curse sense of the expression....

Dashdrvr
04-30-2018, 08:31 PM
Zero chance that this is true!

The 60-70 percent seems be a bit high but it is common knowledge that 5-8 pilots a week are being summoned for conferences for lack of progression in training, failure of MV or LOE CQ or Qual. A number result in separation from the company. It wasn't all that long ago 1 every couple months was the norm.

amcnd
04-30-2018, 08:56 PM
Itís not just at QX. All regionals are seeing this spike in training failures or extra training needed..

DjHubberts
05-01-2018, 04:44 AM
well, i’ll keep you posted. Ground School starts today, so i’m getting ready to start drinking from the firehose. It has been an insane amount to process via CBTs. Lots of time on the iPad.

That being said, all the regionals may be in a training crunch to a.) get people b.) get them through training and on line. As stated earlier, not the best way, but they are not being given much of a choice.

sailingfun
05-01-2018, 04:54 AM
If 60% - 70% of new hires are failing either the training department or hiring department is at fault.

Perhaps itís the quality of the applicants. I know one class at a competitor where they were told on Friday they would get a simple 20 question limitations exam on Monday. 6 out of 10 failed it despite a passing grade being only 80%. Most majors require 100% on any limitations exams or orals.

fivebyfive
05-01-2018, 04:01 PM
I believe there was a large upswing in Q400 fails when the company switched to their Brad Lambert approved SuperSaver(tm) CBT course they just tossed at the new hires and shortened the ground school to 4 DAYS. But look at the savings!

The training department was vehemently opposed to it but was told to go pound sand by management. They are an absolute group of rock stars with decades of experience on the dash8 (all models) and they were effectively hamstrung overnight.

In combination with that, we drastically lowered our hiring standards and would literally take anyone who was qualified on paper. We probably still do. "Just fill classes" were the orders given by BL. Well, some of the people we've hired can't even use an iPad correctly. The Q400 program at Horizon Air is the most challenging airplane and flight operation an airline pilot could ever experience in their career, and we threw these poor [email protected] into the sea with cement shoes and expected them to tread water in a very short amount of time.

Another "perfect storm" summoned and facilitated by corporate greed.

The next perfect storm? Street captains on the Q400 with no experience paired with a new hire and flying on a really bad winter day.

Sooooo true. You canít blame all of the failures on the QX instructors. It is common knowledge that the failure/re-train rate has been hovering around 50%. As the well for pilots runs dry, 70% should not be a surprise. The condensed Q400 course is a big challenge for even the most experienced and talented pilots.
QX instructors have asked many times for more sim and ground school. In the interest of corporate greed, Air Group continues to tell them ďnoĒ. Although instructors want candidates to be successful, they do have an obligation to the flying public to hold pilots to a high standard. I believe they do.

MooneyGuy128
05-01-2018, 06:55 PM
I believe there was a large upswing in Q400 fails when the company switched to their Brad Lambert approved SuperSaver(tm) CBT course they just tossed at the new hires and shortened the ground school to 4 DAYS. But look at the savings!

The training department was vehemently opposed to it but was told to go pound sand by management. They are an absolute group of rock stars with decades of experience on the dash8 (all models) and they were effectively hamstrung overnight.

In combination with that, we drastically lowered our hiring standards and would literally take anyone who was qualified on paper. We probably still do. "Just fill classes" were the orders given by BL. Well, some of the people we've hired can't even use an iPad correctly. The Q400 program at Horizon Air is the most challenging airplane and flight operation an airline pilot could ever experience in their career, and we threw these poor [email protected] into the sea with cement shoes and expected them to tread water in a very short amount of time.

Another "perfect storm" summoned and facilitated by corporate greed.

The next perfect storm? Street captains on the Q400 with no experience paired with a new hire and flying on a really bad winter day.
When did this new training process start that only gives us 4 days of ground school? Also, how much time is being spent in the procedures trainer now prior to heading to the SIM? Getting ready for my class date on the Q and would appreciate as much information as possible on what to expect. Thanks.

snackysmores
05-01-2018, 09:15 PM
When did this new training process start that only gives us 4 days of ground school? Also, how much time is being spent in the procedures trainer now prior to heading to the SIM? Getting ready for my class date on the Q and would appreciate as much information as possible on what to expect. Thanks.

It happened last year around July or August, however I believe the Q400 ground school has now been extended by a week (?) to cover more stuff.

BigfatQ
05-01-2018, 09:24 PM
There's also more FMS lab now and maybe more VPT's

cactusflyer
05-02-2018, 01:16 AM
It happened last year around July or August, however I believe the Q400 ground school has now been extended by a week (?) to cover more stuff.

That sounds about right.

When they made the shift to everything being on the iPad, that resulted in new hires having some pretty large knowledge gaps, so the failure/retraining rate went through the roof for a while, but I believe it's come down after more ground school was added.

DashAviator
05-02-2018, 05:43 AM
In the pilot conference call last week, one of our managers also stated that they were adding an extra sim session. I don't know when this goes into effect (maybe they've already added it).

Don't get too bent out of shape over anything you read on this site. Go to class, study hard, and ask questions. You'll be fine. For me, the ground school was the hardest, just because there's so much material. The simulator sessions are challenging and fun, very much oriented to real-world operations. IOE is enjoyable. You'll fly with some great check airmen and get to stretch your wings
doing some longer legs.

I did a bunch of sim support back in January. Some of the less experienced (or not current) guys have needed extra time in the sim. Don't sweat it if it happens to you. If I recall correctly the "target" for IOE is 50 cycles, or about three or four trips. That's quite a bit of flying. I've worked with a bunch of FO's that are just off of IOE and they are generally very good. Took me years to learn all that stuff!

fivebyfive
05-03-2018, 03:57 PM
[QUOTE=DashAviator;2584566]In the pilot conference call last week, one of our managers also stated that they were adding an extra sim session. I don't know when this goes into effect (maybe they've already added it).

Don't get too bent out of shape over anything you read on this site. Go to class, study hard, and ask questions. You'll be fine. For me, the ground school was the hardest, just because there's so much material. The simulator sessions are challenging and fun, very much oriented to real-world operations. IOE is enjoyable. You'll fly with some great check airmen and get to stretch your wings
doing some longer legs.

I did a bunch of sim support back in January. Some of the less experienced (or not current) guys have needed extra time in the sim. Don't sweat it if it happens to you. If I recall correctly the "target" for IOE is 50 cycles, or about three or four trips. That's quite a bit of flying. I've worked with a bunch of FO's that are just off of IOE and they are generally very good. Took me years to learn all that stuff![/QUOTE

Really? Air Groups mantra is and alway has been cutting costs. Sim time is expensive. Secondly, there is a shortage of sim slots as it is. If Air Group is considering more sim sessions, the failure/re-train rate is through the roof. That goes without saying.
Throwing pilots into a scenerio where their airline career starts off with a ďtraining failureĒ on their permanent record is worth sweating.

DashAviator
05-03-2018, 05:04 PM
If I recall correctly, our syllabus calls for a total of twelve sim sessions, each around 4 hours. Lessons 1-8 are training, session 9 is Maneuvers Validation, lessons 10 and 11 are four line-oriented scenarios (training), and the final session is LOE (another two line-oriented scenarios). This seems to be comparable to training programs at other regional airlines.

I have a lot of respect for our training department, especially our sim instructors. I helped out last year(doing sim support) with two guys who needed THREE extra sim sessions. Our instructors were totally professional and did everything they could to help the two new guys. Both of 'em made it.

I agree that you don't want a training failure on your record, especially as a new Part 121 pilot. And yeah, the Air Group is cheap. But, people that show up for training need to come prepared and be willing to commit 100%. The training program isn't set up to teach you basic instrument flying. You need to be current, at least close to ATP standards. It's also a bad time to be distracted by personal issues. If you have to deal with a serious issue (say, a death in the family), then talk to the training department and get assigned to a later class.

BrewCity
05-03-2018, 06:52 PM
Perhaps itís the quality of the applicants. I know one class at a competitor where they were told on Friday they would get a simple 20 question limitations exam on Monday. 6 out of 10 failed it despite a passing grade being only 80%. Most majors require 100% on any limitations exams or orals.

I agree with you, but that's why I said it could be the hiring department's fault. They shouldn't be hiring pilots they think have a marginal chance of making it to the line.

Privateer383
05-04-2018, 06:29 PM
I am a RW guy considering Horizon, and I would like very much to know what to expect from Horizon's training program, especially considering my minimal FW time.

Is the syllabus permitted to be shared publicly, or is it a corporate secret? If not avail for public use, is it permissible to email it to me?

Much appreciated.

Dashdrvr
05-07-2018, 09:02 PM
I agree with you, but that's why I said it could be the hiring department's fault. They shouldn't be hiring pilots they think have a marginal chance of making it to the line.
In years past Horizon's training program was modeled to accommodate 5000-6000 121 pilots with turbine experience. That program has been cut back significantly and the 5-6000 hour 121 new hire pilots don't exist. The results are quite predictable.

ASpilot2be
05-07-2018, 10:09 PM
I just finished upgrade LOE yesterday, and I have to say the subtle changes in the training program are paying off.

I went through newhire training in September, and since then they have added extra vpt sessions, and actually added classes on how to be prepared for VPT and sims. They are paying off big time. Students are coming to VPT knowing how to fill out data cards, reading TLR reports, etc.

I was chatting with some people, and it sounds like there was a three week streak of training failures a couple months ago, but that seems to be in the past. There are still struggles. But nothing like there was.

DashAviator
05-09-2018, 07:53 AM
Congratulations! Where do you expect to be based?

ASpilot2be
05-09-2018, 11:47 AM
Congratulations! Where do you expect to be based?

Thanks! Much to my surprise I got PDX. Here comes years of reserve.:D



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