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View Full Version : 2018 new TA


WICheeseHead
04-30-2018, 05:50 AM
I hear you guys have reached a TA. Any details on what improvements you will receive? I hope it's a good deal for you guys.


diverdriver2
04-30-2018, 06:35 AM
I hear you guys have reached a TA. Any details on what improvements you will receive? I hope it's a good deal for you guys.

Nothing yet. I'm not sure the MEC met to go over it. It'll come out over the next weekish I'm sure.

bradthepilot
04-30-2018, 07:28 AM
Please forgive my naive question (I'm new to TAs and how they work) but how would this impact new hires not yet on property or specifically if it has the potential to affect things like the new hire bonus? I interviewed a few weeks ago and have a class date in June.


lukeh99
04-30-2018, 08:13 AM
Please forgive my naive question (I'm new to TAs and how they work) but how would this impact new hires not yet on property or specifically if it has the potential to affect things like the new hire bonus? I interviewed a few weeks ago and have a class date in June.
I highly doubt it will have any impact on bonuses unless by some miracle they folded the bonus pay into the hourly rate Endeavor style. You will work under the new work rules once the contract is in place but that should mean good things for a new hire. At the very least things won't be worse. Keep in mind there is a very long path to this thing being implemented.

Junkyard Dog
04-30-2018, 09:02 AM
No big raises and no big bonuses will mean a no vote from me

StrykerB21
04-30-2018, 09:22 AM
Manage your expectations. This is the same people that pushed a 2% increase in premium share and tried to play it off with a ten cent raise in per diem.

jetlag q
05-01-2018, 07:07 PM
What’s a TA?🧐

T28driver
05-02-2018, 05:51 AM
What’s a TA?🧐

Tentative Agreement. It is a term used in contract negotiations to describe the terms of a contract that have been agreed to by the negotiating committee and the company prior to it being voted on and either accepted or shot down by the union members.

Day4mx
05-03-2018, 04:59 PM
Tentative Agreement. It is a term used in contract negotiations to describe the terms of a contract that have been agreed to by the negotiating committee and the company prior to it being voted on and either accepted or shot down by the union members.

Not to be confused with the far more exciting and much more important t AND a.

GoSpeedRacer
05-07-2018, 07:30 AM
Anxiously waiting......:D

Junkyard Dog
05-07-2018, 01:33 PM
It’s gotta be crap. The MEC is in no hurry to convene and vote to send it out to the pilot group for ratification.
If it was a good deal, they would have done that already.

IFLYACRJ
05-07-2018, 01:35 PM
It’s gotta be crap. The MEC is in no hurry to convene and vote to send it out to the pilot group for ratification.

If it was a good deal, they would have done that already.



Check your emails. They’re meeting this week to go over it. Plus it has to be formally and legally done with the lawyers etc etc
We’ve gone this long so what’s another week or so?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

squib
05-07-2018, 02:35 PM
Check your emails. They’re meeting this week to go over it. Plus it has to be formally and legally done with the lawyers etc etc
We’ve gone this long so what’s another week or so?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Some people understand how things work and the rest, well.....

Excargodog
05-07-2018, 03:14 PM
Anxiously waiting......:D

Which? The TA or the t&a?

blindfayth
05-07-2018, 03:21 PM
Which? The TA or the t&a?

Why not both?

Day4mx
05-07-2018, 04:30 PM
Why not both?

No. No...just the t&a.

ZenoAir
05-09-2018, 12:16 PM
This better not be another crap job from BF and CJT holdings!
They can stick it far up their ATW ###hole!

idlethrust
05-09-2018, 01:04 PM
This better not be another crap job from BF and CJT holdings!
They can stick it far up their ATW ###hole!

From what I’m hearing ,if this ta isn’t what we deserve,a lot of people will be looking for employment elsewhere.im sick and dam tired of Jr mans and fdp extensions,absolutely tired of it.
Republic?? Same ord base,no Jr man in their contract,better pay and hella better equipment.
Let them continue to loose flying and have staffing issues until we get what we deserve.
Maybe one day they will get their heads out of their arses in atw.

RabidW0mbat
05-10-2018, 07:12 AM
From what I’m hearing ,if this ta isn’t what we deserve,a lot of people will be looking for employment elsewhere.im sick and dam tired of Jr mans and fdp extensions,absolutely tired of it.
Republic?? Same ord base,no Jr man in their contract,better pay and hella better equipment.
Let them continue to loose flying and have staffing issues until we get what we deserve.
Maybe one day they will get their heads out of their arses in atw.


Except that the ORD base for RAH is shrinking by the month.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/republic-airline/113169-ord-disappearing-act.html

lukeh99
05-10-2018, 07:28 AM
Except that the ORD base for RAH is shrinking by the month.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/republic-airline/113169-ord-disappearing-act.html

The grass is not always greener. Thanks for sharing.

idlethrust
05-10-2018, 08:52 PM
The grass is not always greener. Thanks for sharing.

Dam sure can’t be any worse

RAHkid94
05-11-2018, 06:52 AM
The grass is not always greener. Thanks for sharing.

Just because someone else's grass isn't greener doesn't mean yours isn't brown.

StrykerB21
05-12-2018, 12:36 PM
A 1% raise two years from now and a few measly bonuses. Thats a big NO from me.

donkeyjockey
05-12-2018, 12:36 PM
new ta is garbage and the new hires who got the 57,000 are now getting another 8,000. Congrats on ****ing on the pilot group.


I'm sure it will pass because we all want more money, and starting over at another regional is overwhelming to think about, but this is a super sh!tty situation we are in.

floatilla
05-12-2018, 12:36 PM
It's garbage.

"Earlier today, the ARW MEC voted 5-1 to send the 2018 Tentative Agreement out for ratification by the full Air Wisconsin pilot group. Attached to this email is a link to the full-language TA that was agreed upon by the Company and Association in PHX on April 26th. We want to give you a brief overview of the document and give you a quick update since our last communication and subsequent coffee and conversation events.


Before you begin a deep-dive of the full language, here is a summary of the high points of the TA:



· A combination of bonuses and a small pay increase on top of our continuing annual 1.5% increase, plus various improvements in several other areas

· Our industry-leading health care premium contribution remains at 25%

· A short duration that allows us to return to the bargaining table and start fresh in 24 months.



How We Got Here

Leading up to the PHX mediation session, the MEC published several communications and held two weeks of coffee and conversation events where we explained what our strategy was going forward in the hopes of concluding contract negotiations. We acknowledged that what could reasonably be expected to come out of PHX would be well below the expectations of the pilot group due to the realities of our current environment regardless of what the market is demanding. We felt that the offer the Company presented to us last fall was not sufficient for ratification and therefore we needed the Company to move in the direction of what we proposed in August. In typical fashion, at the final hour of the final day, the Company finally made the move we believed was necessary to present this agreement to you for ratification.



Pay and Bonuses

In the most recent round of polling, you made it clear that you preferred wage rate increases over the bonus structure that we have seen throughout the industry these past few years. We agree and understand why this is more beneficial. That said, the Company has repeatedly been unwilling to entertain higher wage rates, and this was causing a stalemate up to and including in PHX.



What the Company finally proposed is a combination of wage rate and bonus/retention money. While not ideal, it does put significantly more money into the pilots’ pockets than what was being offered previously, with the bonuses alone being more than $8,000 per pilot in the first year. In total, the proposed raises and bonuses would come out on this schedule:



July 23, 2018 $3,000 bonus

November 30, 2018 $2,000 (minimum) bonus

July 15, 2019 $3,000 bonus

July 1, 2020 1.0% raise



The Company agreed that any funds that would have otherwise been allocated to pilots receiving the July 2018 bonus but who have left Air Wisconsin before the November 30, 2018 payment will be reallocated to those still on the property on November 30, 2018. Depending on how many pilots leave the airline this year, this will add a small sum to the November 30, 2018 payment. Even though we strongly prefer wage increases as a general matter, in this case the bonus monies are worth more from a time/value of money perspective than the wage rate increases that were proposed on day one. This is why we say the November 30, 2018 payout is a minimum of $2000.



The wage increase will layer on top of continuing 1.5% annual pay increases.



Healthcare Premium

Our premium share is the lowest in our segment – pilots at other airlines pay as much as 30% or more – and it is not changed in this TA. Our pilot group has consistently insisted on keeping this share where it is. In fact, one of the major reasons for the rejection of the 2015 TA was language that would have raised the pilot share of our health insurance premiums from the current 25% to 27%.



The company attempted again to increase the healthcare premium in this round of negotiations, but we were successful in holding the line at 25%. We also defeated all other company attempts to impose benefit concessions on the pilot group, including, for example, raising the medical plan out of pocket expenses paid by pilots and their families.



Duration

Another important aspect of the TA is that we now have the ability, at our discretion, to reopen the contract at the end of Year Two, one year prior to the amendable date if we decide conditions are right to do so. In other words, we can be back at the table 24 months after this TA is signed and goes into effect. If the company is successful in increasing pilot staffing to its target level of 715 pilots (or more), we expect both that pilots’ quality of life will improve substantially and that the Company will be able to afford greater increases.



Why Now?

You may be thinking, “why did we bargain for seven years to only get small gains?” The short answer is that despite the TA’s shortcomings we believed the better choice is to give you the opportunity to decide whether to take the money the Company put on the table and get it into your hands now. Why let them keep millions of dollars of your money for another year or more? This TA allows you to take advantage of the time value of money, putting extra cash in your pocket now while you make your future plans. It also preserves our health insurance premiums and annual 1.5% wage rate increase, which you told us was another top priority. Finally, it sets us up to reopen negotiations in two years, when we expect that the airline will have more profits to share with the group.





The Tentative Agreement

You can access the New Tentative Agreement on the ARW Contract website. Additionally, like we had done with the 2015 TA, we have opened up the email address [email protected] for you to submit questions related to the TA. As questions come in, they will be reviewed and answered, and those answers will be posted on the ARW Contract website (You will not receive an individual response to emails sent to this address). We recommend you check back on the website regularly to keep up-to-date with the questions your fellow pilots have about the TA.



Final Thoughts

In our considered opinion, the MEC and Negotiating Committee felt that after seven years of bargaining we had hit a wall with the company and were unlikely to come to a solution in the near term. Rather than spend another year or more in fruitless bargaining, an overwhelming majority of your elected MEC representatives felt it was better to take the money being offered to us now, and to come back to fight another day.



This TA includes real money -- $8,000 for every pilot over the next 365 days, plus a small raise in the following year. We fought off the company’s attempts to increase our health insurance premiums. We have the opportunity to be back at the table in two years.



The MEC believes you deserve the right to decide whether you want $8,000 and a raise. The ultimate decision on whether to accept this TA, of course, is up to you.



Stay tuned for more information on the TA information process and voting schedule in the days to come.



Fraternally,



Your ARW MEC"

Roverruckus
05-12-2018, 12:42 PM
It's a complete joke. There is no way this company is going to be able to ever hire new (competent) pilots with an extra 8000 dollars for the year. Pilots here want quality of life and the only way that is going to happen is if we get substantial raises, otherwise this company isn't going to make it after the 5 years is up. That's the "financial reality".

FlyPKP
05-12-2018, 01:17 PM
Amazing, canceling at least 2 dozen flights daily "Due to operational difficulties" and the best is a 1% raise in 2 years....

StrykerB21
05-12-2018, 01:19 PM
Anyone else notice they got rid of the payscales for aircraft over 50 seats?

blindfayth
05-12-2018, 01:22 PM
A 1% raise *after* 2 years?

Isn't inflation a 3% decrease in purchasing power per year, on average?

What a joke.

Day4mx
05-12-2018, 01:24 PM
Is this a joke?

pitchtrim
05-12-2018, 01:24 PM
Pretty bad.

stroopwaffle
05-12-2018, 02:18 PM
If that email listed the "highlights" of the TA, then that's a HARD NO for me.

What a shame we can't do better with everyone else doing better.

edit: I will have to look at the whole package, but seriously a tiny raise, retention bonuses over two years and we don't have health care costs increased, and thats the best they can talk about?

Junkyard Dog
05-12-2018, 04:26 PM
What a ****ing joke. I lost all respect for Bob Burgess who is our negotiating committee chairman. No raises and a measly $8000 bonus paid out in installments? No vote here.
It sickens me about as much as the Georgia - Alabama game did this past January.
This is a big kick in the nuts to us who are constantly junior manned and extended on a regular basis.
Why take these stupid surveys when they just get ignored? If Frisch wants to staff this airline, they need to pay more. This is a joke. Frisch is a seniority list pilot who pays ALPA dues and his trying to screw us over.
What’s really appalling is that our negotiators just threw their hands up in the air and said we will try again in two years? They and the 5 MEC members who voted on this to send out should all be recalled.
Enough is enough. Sooner or later our pathetic management will realize they need us more than we need them. They’re cancelling flights due to lack of crews to fly them and we are getting abused week after week due to their staffing issues. I, for one, am sick and tired of getting called on my days off. It doesn’t matter when. I’ve had my own phone go off at 2am to see its scheduling trying to junior man me.
We have the upper hand. Don’t **** it away.
Our ALPA group has gotten lazy. The MEC officers don’t fly and this is the best they can do? We never had a strike vote or anything. Even the mediator had enough of the crap about o f negotiations pace
If this gets voted in, we look like a bunch of wussies and BF will look like a genius to the owners and Christine.
It’s going to be a no vote for me.

T28driver
05-12-2018, 04:31 PM
new ta is garbage and the new hires who got the 57,000 are now getting another 8,000. Congrats on ****ing on the pilot group.


I'm sure it will pass because we all want more money, and starting over at another regional is overwhelming to think about, but this is a super sh!tty situation we are in.

FYI, pilots hired after December 1, 2016 are not eligible for the bonus.

RAHkid94
05-12-2018, 04:32 PM
What a ****ing joke. I lost all respect for Bob Burgess who is our negotiating committee chairman. No raises and a measly $8000 bonus paid out in installments? No vote here.
It sickens me about as much as the Georgia - Alabama game did this past January.
This is a big kick in the nuts to us who are constantly junior manned and extended on a regular basis.
Why take these stupid surveys when they just get ignored? If Frisch wants to staff this airline, they need to pay more. This is a joke. Frisch is a seniority list pilot who pays ALPA dues and his trying to screw us over.
What’s really appalling is that our negotiators just threw their hands up in the air and said we will try again in two years? They and the 5 MEC members who voted on this to send out should all be recalled.
Enough is enough. Sooner or later our pathetic management will realize they need us more than we need them. They’re cancelling flights due to lack of crews to fly them and we are getting abused week after week due to their staffing issues. I, for one, am sick and tired of getting called on my days off. It doesn’t matter when. I’ve had my own phone go off at 2am to see its scheduling trying to junior man me.
We have the upper hand. Don’t **** it away.
If this gets voted in, we look like a bunch of wussies and BF will look like a genius to the owners and Christine.
It’s going to be a no vote for me.

Exactly. They make it sound like the bonus and raise are free money but it's really in exchange for leverage. I don't think 8k and 1% is worth giving up any leverage.

stroopwaffle
05-12-2018, 04:48 PM
I skimmed it through, looking forward to cliff notes on what has changed for the better or worse. It looks like the same 2003 contract with small longevity bonuses.

Frustrated and disappointed.

T28driver
05-12-2018, 04:54 PM
I skimmed it through, looking forward to cliff notes on what has changed for the better or worse. It looks like the same 2003 contract with small longevity bonuses.

Frustrated and disappointed.

From what I saw there were some possibly beneficial changes to junior man/QEE rules depending on how some of it ends up being interpreted. The commuter clause is a little less restrictive but still requires two flights.

RANGER211
05-12-2018, 06:31 PM
Looks like the apps at the other regionals just went up. No way no how would I vote for this pos. And for the jr mans? Just tell them yes. Then call back in 5 min and tell them you are fatigued as you are walking to your commute home. It’s worked for me for years. Nice work mec. Yet another joke of a TA.

HighWingingIt
05-12-2018, 09:17 PM
Man, I was seriously thinking about flying for ZW but it sounds like management is really dilly-dallying with this TA.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BeechPilot33
05-12-2018, 09:48 PM
A 1% raise *after* 2 years?

Isn't inflation a 3% decrease in purchasing power per year, on average?
.

2018 - 2.54% inflation
2019 - 2.44% inflation
2020 - 2.13% inflation

The 1.5 raise per year doesn’t cover even inflation. On a 60k salary with 8k over three years and 2% pay raise in 2020 after union dues you net less than 200$ per month.

WICheeseHead
05-13-2018, 11:15 AM
So what does Air Wisconsin have at this point to attract any new hires?
I guess good insurance, which typically isn't that big of an issue for new hires since they don't have families, illnesses (younger age), etc. Hate to say it, but they just fell off a lot of people's lists. I think GoJet, Mesa, etc are all better options for just about anyone.

Grumbletrousers
05-13-2018, 12:27 PM
So what does Air Wisconsin have at this point to attract any new hires?
I guess good insurance, which typically isn't that big of an issue for new hires since they don't have families, illnesses (younger age), etc. Hate to say it, but they just fell off a lot of people's lists. I think GoJet, Mesa, etc are all better options for just about anyone.

I wouldn’t go that far

RAHkid94
05-13-2018, 12:30 PM
I wouldn’t go that far


They're beating the snot out of us performance wise at least.

But yeah saying it's worse to work here than Mesa is hyperbole.

squib
05-13-2018, 12:45 PM
So what does Air Wisconsin have at this point to attract any new hires?
I guess good insurance, which typically isn't that big of an issue for new hires since they don't have families, illnesses (younger age), etc. Hate to say it, but they just fell off a lot of people's lists. I think GoJet, Mesa, etc are all better options for just about anyone.


You would think that, but half our new hires are like 50+ years old. Flew with one that was 62 and fresh of OE.

prex8390
05-13-2018, 01:19 PM
So what does Air Wisconsin have at this point to attract any new hires?
I guess good insurance, which typically isn't that big of an issue for new hires since they don't have families, illnesses (younger age), etc. Hate to say it, but they just fell off a lot of people's lists. I think GoJet, Mesa, etc are all better options for just about anyone.

Y’all still have your 1990s reputation which your management still thinks will pull y’all out of this mess. Also didn’t you see. There was like 15 people in your latest ground school class (((((with a 80% washout rate) too to fix this

FODhopper
05-13-2018, 03:32 PM
Still better than the fall of 2016 when my Indoc classes only had 2 and sometimes 1...consistently.

Excargodog
05-13-2018, 04:22 PM
Still better than the fall of 2016 when my Indoc classes only had 2 and sometimes 1...consistently.

What was your attrition then, and what is it now?

StrykerB21
05-13-2018, 04:44 PM
What was your attrition then, and what is it now?

Back then the one or two we got were Navy pilots looking to be Norfolk based for a few months until Delta calls. They obviously did just fine.

Now its pretty high for a number of reasons. I couldn't give you a percentage because I just don't know.

Excargodog
05-13-2018, 05:05 PM
Back then the one or two we got were Navy pilots looking to be Norfolk based for a few months until Delta calls. They obviously did just fine.

Now its pretty high for a number of reasons. I couldn't give you a percentage because I just don't know.

Yeah, but you miss the point on attrition. I meant attrition from the rest of the pilot group.

Back then you got one or two who did just fine, whereas now you are getting 15 but washing out 12 for a net of three. But how many of your existing pilots were getting picked up by a major then and how many now? Some of the ULCC have hired FOs with no TPIC, and retirements at the traditional majors are high and will be going higher for the next five years.

Two guys back then may have more than covered your attrition due to people getting hired away. I doubt that three guys will now. Most majors seem to select people during the year but bring them on board in the fall when the summer flying workload eases up. You gotta wonder how many captains already have the letter, and are waiting to give their two weeks notice until sometime in August or September.

And that isn't just for Air Wisconsin, it's for all the regionals. These will be interesting times....

donkeyjockey
05-13-2018, 07:18 PM
This information comes straight from the published seniority lists:


A new hire in Jan of 15 was #793 and is now 306 of 565.


We lost the bulk of those from January of 2016 where we had 763 on property to January 2018 where we had 550. We hit our low point in July of 2017 where we had 495 on property.


FWIW

calico
05-14-2018, 01:56 AM
Y’all still have your 1990s reputation which your management still thinks will pull y’all out of this mess. Also didn’t you see. There was like 15 people in your latest ground school class (((((with a 80% washout rate) too to fix this
Is this accurate? As someone who wants to fly for ZW, this is really downright scary...especially since it's my first 121 job.

BFMthisA10
05-14-2018, 02:49 AM
FWIW, my class had a 23% training attrition. The last of us is just now going into IOE after a Dec start. I might have just led a charmed life through training, but I didn't run across a lot of the boogeymen everyone talks about in the training department; everyone seemed focused on producing a better product while at the same time holding some semblance of a performance standard despite the storm--they just won't turn a blind eye to less than adequate performance. All but two of us were given extra training, including all of the ones that attritted out, so it isn't as though they are being miserly with the purse strings (at least in the training department that is :rolleyes: ).

Is this accurate? As someone who wants to fly for ZW, this is really downright scary...especially since it's my first 121 job.

AstroChessPilot
05-14-2018, 04:34 AM
So, I started reading the new TA from the beginning with an open mind. I got as far as Section 1. F. 1. General Furlough Protections, and the requirement to have 305 Captain positions. Right now we have only 266. On the June bid packets, total number of Lineholders plus Reserve plus MED, ALPA, INST and all other absentness equal 253. On the April Seniority List, total number of management pilots equal 13, giving the grand total of 266, 39 Captain positions short of the agreement.


If this TA is ratified, as the pen is being lifted from the signature page on the DOS, (Date of Singing), the Company will be in violation of this agreement from the very first second of its existence. If we allow the Company to be in non-compliance with the contract from day one, what can we expect over the next 10 to 12 years of this agreement, (2 year contract plus 8 to 10 years of negotiations?)


In my columns of pros and cons, this goes on the cons side. It will be interesting to hear from the MEC what pros will offset this. My gut reaction is that I can not ethically vote yes for an agreement that is already in violation, but I want to keep an open mind, read the whole thing, get the 14 other questions I have so far answered and see what list is longer.

Day4mx
05-14-2018, 07:59 AM
So, I started reading the new TA from the beginning with an open mind. I got as far as Section 1. F. 1. General Furlough Protections, and the requirement to have 305 Captain positions. Right now we have only 266. On the June bid packets, total number of Lineholders plus Reserve plus MED, ALPA, INST and all other absentness equal 253. On the April Seniority List, total number of management pilots equal 13, giving the grand total of 266, 39 Captain positions short of the agreement.


If this TA is ratified, as the pen is being lifted from the signature page on the DOS, (Date of Singing), the Company will be in violation of this agreement from the very first second of its existence. If we allow the Company to be in non-compliance with the contract from day one, what can we expect over the next 10 to 12 years of this agreement, (2 year contract plus 8 to 10 years of negotiations?)


In my columns of pros and cons, this goes on the cons side. It will be interesting to hear from the MEC what pros will offset this. My gut reaction is that I can not ethically vote yes for an agreement that is already in violation, but I want to keep an open mind, read the whole thing, get the 14 other questions I have so far answered and see what list is longer.

Not any different from chronic abuse of the current book when it comes to hotels, crewrooms, and junior manning.

Pilotdude3407
05-14-2018, 09:04 AM
So, I started reading the new TA from the beginning with an open mind. I got as far as Section 1. F. 1. General Furlough Protections, and the requirement to have 305 Captain positions. Right now we have only 266. On the June bid packets, total number of Lineholders plus Reserve plus MED, ALPA, INST and all other absentness equal 253. On the April Seniority List, total number of management pilots equal 13, giving the grand total of 266, 39 Captain positions short of the agreement.


If this TA is ratified, as the pen is being lifted from the signature page on the DOS, (Date of Singing), the Company will be in violation of this agreement from the very first second of its existence. If we allow the Company to be in non-compliance with the contract from day one, what can we expect over the next 10 to 12 years of this agreement, (2 year contract plus 8 to 10 years of negotiations?).



Same language as current book. They are in violation of it now. A grievance was filed last year and it is slated for arbitration in a couple of months. Signing a new deal in with same language would have no effect on that grievance or arbitration.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

prex8390
05-14-2018, 09:14 AM
Is this accurate? As someone who wants to fly for ZW, this is really downright scary...especially since it's my first 121 job.

I was being half sarcastic and FWIW, I am former ZW and not current. They hugely prided themselves on their “reputation” and would tout all the tine in ground school how “innovative” they were because they installed plates in the cargo hold for w&b and had their “own” acars network. Mostly it’s because it’s all they really had going for them. All this while they are working short contract to short contract and watching 50 people a month leave while not doing anything about it. The mood overall sounds like it hasn’t changed since I left 20 Monthes ago.

Skyhawk121
05-14-2018, 09:58 AM
What kind of pay rates does this new TA have?

StrykerB21
05-14-2018, 11:23 AM
What kind of pay rates does this new TA have?

No change until 2020. July 2020 its a 1% raise. So if you're hired today you'll be on third year pay by the time you get your 44 cent raise.

Excargodog
05-14-2018, 12:50 PM
No change until 2020. July 2020 its a 1% raise. So if you're hired today you'll be on third year pay by the time you get your 44 cent raise.

Which means, allowing for inflation, you'll be making about 5% less in real terms than a third year guy today.

Does your management seriously think they are going to be competitive for either new hiring or retention with those numbers? It seems almost like a suicide pact for the whole organization. Sure, the new hire bonuses will bring new guys in the door, but how do you keep them once they have their first year in? At best, I think they might get a number of local candidates who want to stay local to hang around, but with half the other regionals giving new hire bonuses for street captains I can't imagine anyone who isn't already pretty senior even staying here until they can get on at a major. Especially with ULCCs hiring regional FOs with no TPIC whatsoever. Hopefully the training department is well staffed because the turnover might be awesome.

prex8390
05-14-2018, 02:04 PM
As billyho would say. I’m rooting for y’all. It’s ridiculous that they wanna offer you this dumbster fire TA In this kind of environment. All jokes aside. You guys have a amazing pilot group. Much better then where I am at. Something i miss about ZW. I really hope something works out much better than this bs for y’all. If you can’t even meet RAH new TA, it truly perpetuates that upper magagment truly believe they think they’ll survives on your 1990s/ early early 2000s rep alone. “Don’t worry people flock here because of what they heard about us in 2003”

SilentLurker
05-14-2018, 02:20 PM
Looking at this from the outside (I’m not at a AWC), I see this TA more as a smoke signal or foot-line drawn, by your management team to other regional carriers.

This TA is like a medieval battle scene. A man is about to battle, right as it begins he kneels in fear saying in panic “ I yield, I yield, no more, please no more, I yield.”

pitchtrim
05-14-2018, 03:21 PM
I don't know how we're suppose to hire with the proposed payscale either. Turn the bonuses into hard pay and be done with it already. No one wants to pay back 57k if they decide they want to leave, or heaven forbid wash out in training.

ZenoAir
05-14-2018, 03:33 PM
Again....its plain and simple if you even think about coming here you need your head examined! This place will be out of business within a year due to staffing problems. We all have our applications out, and are leaving at a quick pace. Hope ole Bob is getting current, as he will need to fly the line once again. I am sending this garbage TA back for another round, but will likely not see the benefits, as I am leaving shortly for greener pastures. Remember this company has easily made 400-600 million

mpet
05-14-2018, 04:18 PM
i left awac oh i dont know, 2 years ago now after the last garbage TA, and the place apparently hasn't changed a bit. wow. I'm glad you guys found that united flying, but this TA is just embarassing.... with what everyone else is getting. burn it down

Grumbletrousers
05-14-2018, 04:18 PM
Looking at this from the outside (I’m not at a AWC), I see this TA more as a smoke signal or foot-line drawn, by your management team to other regional carriers.

This TA is like a medieval battle scene. A man is about to battle, right as it begins he kneels in fear saying in panic “ I yield, I yield, no more, please no more, I yield.”

We’ve voted down one bad TA and I’m confident a majority of the pilot group will say no again.

donkeyjockey
05-14-2018, 05:12 PM
Looking at this from the outside (I’m not at a AWC), I see this TA more as a smoke signal or foot-line drawn, by your management team to other regional carriers.

This TA is like a medieval battle scene. A man is about to battle, right as it begins he kneels in fear saying in panic “ I yield, I yield, no more, please no more, I yield.”




what does this mean?

AV810
05-15-2018, 02:25 AM
[No one wants to pay back 57k if they decide they want to leave, or heaven forbid wash out in training.]

This is a very valid point. What is termed a "hiring bonus" is actually an indenture. Can you imagine if every employer called half your salary a "bonus," and you had to pay it back if you didn't continue to work for a specified time? If it was truly a bonus, then $35,000/yr must be a living wage. Is anyone living 20 days a month on the road (and possibly also commuting another 10 days) for $35,000/yr? If you count all the hours away from home, that's less than $5.00/hr. I wonder why there's a pilot shortage? :rolleyes:

Soxfan1
05-15-2018, 03:47 AM
[No one wants to pay back 57k if they decide they want to leave, or heaven forbid wash out in training.]

This is a very valid point. What is termed a "hiring bonus" is actually an indenture. Can you imagine if every employer called half your salary a "bonus," and you had to pay it back if you didn't continue to work for a specified time? If it was truly a bonus, then $35,000/yr must be a living wage. Is anyone living 20 days a month on the road (and possibly also commuting another 10 days) for $35,000/yr? If you count all the hours away from home, that's less than $5.00/hr. I wonder why there's a pilot shortage? :rolleyes:

If you wash out you only pay back 5K. Nothing more because you don’t see anymore until after you pass IOE. I agree with your point but there is a big difference from 5K and 56K.

Also you could defer that 5K until after as an option.

Finally if you think you are going to leave in under 2 years (IE Mitary) defer the whole thing and get paid 12 monthly installments in year 2 as it vests if you are still here.

Look bonus should 100% be made into hourly rates like Endeavor but to say you pay it all back if you wash out or leave is not completely accurate.

pitchtrim
05-15-2018, 04:53 AM
What about the 21k or whatever it is after ioe?

Junkyard Dog
05-15-2018, 06:44 AM
Eight years of negotiations for what?
Absolutely nothing. We need to vote this down and recall our reps. And start all over including replacing Bob, Wayne and Luis on the negotiating committee. Then again, Wayne retires later this year.
Just my $.02
Where’s BillyHo to add his?

stroopwaffle
05-15-2018, 07:53 AM
In this day and age do we still give out beepers for reserve pilots? Why is that still in there?

Our current (2003 lol) contract is good/ok, but to attract the ever shrinking pool of regional pilot new hires we need to have a great contract. With just a ho-hum contract and us still flying -200's with no new fleet in sight, our staffing issues will only get worse.

Anyone find what we actually gain from this TA?

Day4mx
05-15-2018, 09:23 AM
Eight years of negotiations for what?
Absolutely nothing. We need to vote this down and recall our reps. And start all over including replacing Bob, Wayne and Luis on the negotiating committee. Then again, Wayne retires later this year.
Just my $.02
Where’s BillyHo to add his?

We would have been better off not spending the money on 8 years of fruitless negotiations and just gotten a refund on our dues.

Day4mx
05-15-2018, 09:25 AM
In this day and age do we still give out beepers for reserve pilots? Why is that still in there?

Our current (2003 lol) contract is good/ok, but to attract the ever shrinking pool of regional pilot new hires we need to have a great contract. With just a ho-hum contract and us still flying -200's with no new fleet in sight, our staffing issues will only get worse.

Anyone find what we actually gain from this TA?


Appears that the no min day clause is gone. Thatll actually amount to about a 1% annual raise for me. Looking back at last years schedules.. I lost 17 hours due to nom.

mpet
05-15-2018, 12:01 PM
your pilot group deserves so much better... billyho, come show your support right now.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/33f6c13b4e73915ae99f76ad7df05e40/tumblr_o70addljiC1r2lmkgo1_500.gif

billyho
05-15-2018, 12:18 PM
your pilot group deserves so much better... billyho, come show your support right now.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/33f6c13b4e73915ae99f76ad7df05e40/tumblr_o70addljiC1r2lmkgo1_500.gif

Speechless man! I can't believe it. I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of management with this TA. How was this even signed off to be voted on?
How are you going to get anyone to come there now? The Junior guys will easily bail now for much better options leaving the senior folks for an incredibly crappy road to travel until the lights get cut off. Just can't figure it out at all.

mpet
05-15-2018, 12:38 PM
holy sht i have the power to summon billyho

prex8390
05-15-2018, 01:16 PM
Speechless man! I can't believe it. I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of management with this TA. How was this even signed off to be voted on?
How are you going to get anyone to come there now? The Junior guys will easily bail now for much better options leaving the senior folks for an incredibly crappy road to travel until the lights get cut off. Just can't figure it out at all.

Can I get a rec to aa.

mpet
05-15-2018, 01:23 PM
Can I get a rec to aa.

u dont wanna go there.

diverdriver2
05-15-2018, 01:27 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/harrypotter/images/e/e0/TDHp2_Textless_Poster_Voldemort_action.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20161119213411

holy sht i have the power to summon billyho

idlethrust
05-15-2018, 02:34 PM
Speechless man! I can't believe it. I'm just trying to figure out the mindset of management with this TA. How was this even signed off to be voted on?
How are you going to get anyone to come there now? The Junior guys will easily bail now for much better options leaving the senior folks for an incredibly crappy road to travel until the lights get cut off. Just can't figure it out at all.

I’m definitely know of 3 that’s about to leave
It might be 4

toddeve
05-15-2018, 03:17 PM
I’m definitely know of 3 that’s about to leave
It might be 4
3 months on property, thru ground and sim and out on IOE. Abruptly left and back to previous line of work (flying).

Excargodog
05-15-2018, 03:40 PM
3 months on property, thru ground and sim and out on IOE. Abruptly left and back to previous line of work (flying).

So they got training pay and $31Kin bonuses for showing up and completing IOE. And a type rating.

That's an annualized payout of over $130K. You could make a career out of being a newbie FO, just bouncing back and forth among the various regionals and collecting new hire bonuses and additional ratings....

BFMthisA10
05-15-2018, 03:48 PM
So they got training pay and $31Kin bonuses for showing up and completing IOE. And a type rating.

That's an annualized payout of over $130K. You could make a career out of being a newbie FO, just bouncing back and forth among the various regionals and collecting new hire bonuses and additional ratings....Only 5k if they finished IOE. Otherwise the rest of the juice isn't earned till month 13.

Excargodog
05-15-2018, 03:52 PM
Only 5k if they finished IOE. Otherwise the rest of the juice isn't earned till month 13.

Really? That's not what their latest ad says:


$31,000 Sign-on Bonuses

$5,000 paid during first month, $26,000 paid at completion of IOE (approx. 3-4 months)

$18,000 Retention Bonuses

$10,000 paid after first anniversary, $8,000 (payable $2,000 per quarter) if pilot has not upgraded to Captain

$8,000 Type Rating Bonus

Pilots with Part 91K, 121 or 135 carrier with an ATP and type rating in an aircraft greater than 12,500 lbs. Paid at completion of IOE (approx 3-4 months)

Pilots (http://www.airwis.com/pilots.html)

Soxfan1
05-15-2018, 04:26 PM
Really? That's not what their latest ad says:


$31,000 Sign-on Bonuses

$5,000 paid during first month, $26,000 paid at completion of IOE (approx. 3-4 months)

$18,000 Retention Bonuses

$10,000 paid after first anniversary, $8,000 (payable $2,000 per quarter) if pilot has not upgraded to Captain

$8,000 Type Rating Bonus

Pilots with Part 91K, 121 or 135 carrier with an ATP and type rating in an aircraft greater than 12,500 lbs. Paid at completion of IOE (approx 3-4 months)

Pilots (http://www.airwis.com/pilots.html)

The guy said he left “out on” IOE. So he would have only got 5K. He did not say he completed it.

And if he had completed IOE and then left after, he would owe the IOE 26K bonus back as mentioned above, as it doesn’t vest until months 13-24 prorated. How they would/could collect it is whole seperate discussion.

CAsFiled
05-15-2018, 04:36 PM
The guy said he left “out on” IOE. So he would have only got 5K. He did not say he completed it.

And if he had completed IOE and then left after, he would owe the IOE 26K bonus back as mentioned above, as it doesn’t vest until months 13-24 prorated. How they would/could collect it is whole seperate discussion.

And if he didn't complete IOE he would also owe the first $5K back too. The 5K is only earned on completion of IOE

Soxfan1
05-15-2018, 04:52 PM
And if he didn't complete IOE he would also owe the first $5K back too. The 5K is only earned on completion of IOE

Good point as well

idlethrust
05-15-2018, 05:12 PM
In this day and age do we still give out beepers for reserve pilots? Why is that still in there?

Our current (2003 lol) contract is good/ok, but to attract the ever shrinking pool of regional pilot new hires we need to have a great contract. With just a ho-hum contract and us still flying -200's with no new fleet in sight, our staffing issues will only get worse.

Anyone find what we actually gain from this TA?

Anything to address the endless Jr man calls and extensions and poor Qol we currently have?
We have kept this Co afloat with our sacrifice and hardwork and this is how we are shown appreciation??
Management has failed to come forward and let us know what the plan is going forward. We are loosing more than we can hire and get through training,yet they don’t see a problem.
Say no to extensions and Jr mans,go home on your scheduled off days and spend time with family and friends and take care of your personal business,don’t put it off for them. At the end of the day it’s managements responsibility to make sure we are properly staffed and flights get covered,not mine.Im tired of scheduling telling me if you don’t accept this extension or Jr man then these flights will cancel.From now on cancel the
MF then , I don’t care anymore.
I’m tired of mgmt sitting there quietly as we are working like dogs to keep this operation going. Eff em

idlethrust
05-15-2018, 05:40 PM
3 months on property, thru ground and sim and out on IOE. Abruptly left and back to previous line of work (flying).
This was posted in the United chat, but certainly has implications for CommutAir's future:

Quote:
Enhanced EWR and IAD flight schedules coming this fall

Customers in the New York area will soon enjoy access to more destinations, more non-stop flights and larger aircraft thanks to a series of schedule changes we announced today. Taking effect in October, these route adjustments will maximize the unique strengths of our two East Coast hubs by improving access to 17 popular markets from EWR while shifting short-haul connecting customers to IAD.


United offers more flights to more destinations from EWR than any other airline in the New York region – the largest air travel market in the country. At the same time, IAD offers connecting customers a more optimal schedule and better flight reliability in short-haul regional markets.


“Newark capacity is finite, so to grow we need to fly larger airplanes,” said Domestic Network VP Ankit Gupta. “Dulles has more capacity and, as such, presents a great opportunity for our connecting passengers who today make their connections in Newark.”


“Over the coming years, you’ll see us doing more of both – adding frequencies and connectivity in Dulles and eventually growing EWR to the point where it will be almost entirely mainline service,” Ankit added.


Here is a summary of the planned network changes we announced today, all effective October 4 unless otherwise noted:

Adding new nonstop seasonal service December 19-March 30 between EWR and PSP (Palm Springs, California)
Expanding seasonal service between EWR and EYW (Key West, Florida) to year-round
Increasing service to the following destinations from EWR: BNA (Nashville, Tennessee); BTV (Burlington, Vermont); CHS (Charleston, South Carolina); FLL (Fort Lauderdale, Florida); GSO (Greensboro, North Carolina); MCO (Orlando, Florida); MEM (Memphis, Tennessee); MSY (New Orleans, Louisiana); ORF (Norfolk, Virginia); PBI (West Palm Beach, Florida); PHX (Phoenix, Arizona); PIT (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania); RSW (Fort Myers, Florida); SAT (San Antonio, Texas); SRQ (Sarasota, Florida)
Reallocating United Express flights from AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennsylvania), CHA (Chattanooga, Tennessee) and ITH (Ithaca, New York) from EWR to IAD
From EWR, we will discontinue service to BWI (Washington-Baltimore), BDL (Hartford, Connecticut) and DSM (Des Moines, Iowa). We will continue to serve BWI, BDL and DSM from multiple hubs
We will suspend winter season service December 19-March 30 between EWR and SMF (Sacramento, California)

“We approached these schedule adjustments with our customers in mind, knowing that we wanted to create a schedule that offers customers beginning their travel in the New York City area convenient flights to many of the business and leisure destinations they travel to most,” Ankit said. “Since more of our customers begin their travel from New York/Newark than any other United hub city, our team went to create a more customer friendly schedule that removed connection times and provided convenient nonstop service to multiple U.S. destinations.”


We are contacting our customers with reservations on discontinued flights to offer them alternate flight options or provide refunds. All changes will be reflected in published flight schedules effective May 12. All impacted destinations will continue to be served by at least one United hub.

By Peter Rapalus
The handwriting may be on the wall
United is following deltas lead ,cut out a lot of regional flying and do it with mainline aircraft.
It’s definitely coming

JoeMerchant
05-15-2018, 06:07 PM
Stand strong ARW pilots. The time has come for all to stand together. United needs you guys. I think we will all be much closer soon. We stand with you and support you in gaining more.

ZenoAir
05-16-2018, 04:13 AM
Hear that BOB and JT holdings, we are sick and tired of covering your flying YOU cant staff, because of years of irogance on your part!
You will now offer us 10-20K a year as a retention bonus if you want AWA to be around in a year. Why on earth would anyone consider this dumpster?

Day4mx
05-16-2018, 06:31 AM
I have never seen anything as appaulling, shockingly, pathetically bad as our leadership team here. Absolutely clueless. Its absolutely amazing how they are completely absent in times like this. No where to be found. Radio silence. Christine where are you? Still hiding behind that excuse "im not that good with communicating, its my weak spot" Bob where are you? Ya wanna let us in on your plan how yourw gonna fix this clusterfck? You may hate the pilot group here, and thats fine. We hate you too. But at the very least you owe it to your passengers depending on us. Our performance is horrid and its humiliating to the hard working professionals on the line who still care. What an absolute joke.

Excargodog
05-16-2018, 06:46 AM
This was posted in the United chat, but certainly has implications for CommutAir's future:

Quote:
Enhanced EWR and IAD flight schedules coming this fall

Customers in the New York area will soon enjoy access to more destinations, more non-stop flights and larger aircraft thanks to a series of schedule changes we announced today. Taking effect in October, these route adjustments will maximize the unique strengths of our two East Coast hubs by improving access to 17 popular markets from EWR while shifting short-haul connecting customers to IAD.


United offers more flights to more destinations from EWR than any other airline in the New York region – the largest air travel market in the country. At the same time, IAD offers connecting customers a more optimal schedule and better flight reliability in short-haul regional markets.


“Newark capacity is finite, so to grow we need to fly larger airplanes,” said Domestic Network VP Ankit Gupta. “Dulles has more capacity and, as such, presents a great opportunity for our connecting passengers who today make their connections in Newark.”


“Over the coming years, you’ll see us doing more of both – adding frequencies and connectivity in Dulles and eventually growing EWR to the point where it will be almost entirely mainline service,” Ankit added.


Here is a summary of the planned network changes we announced today, all effective October 4 unless otherwise noted:

Adding new nonstop seasonal service December 19-March 30 between EWR and PSP (Palm Springs, California)
Expanding seasonal service between EWR and EYW (Key West, Florida) to year-round
Increasing service to the following destinations from EWR: BNA (Nashville, Tennessee); BTV (Burlington, Vermont); CHS (Charleston, South Carolina); FLL (Fort Lauderdale, Florida); GSO (Greensboro, North Carolina); MCO (Orlando, Florida); MEM (Memphis, Tennessee); MSY (New Orleans, Louisiana); ORF (Norfolk, Virginia); PBI (West Palm Beach, Florida); PHX (Phoenix, Arizona); PIT (Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania); RSW (Fort Myers, Florida); SAT (San Antonio, Texas); SRQ (Sarasota, Florida)
Reallocating United Express flights from AVP (Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennsylvania), CHA (Chattanooga, Tennessee) and ITH (Ithaca, New York) from EWR to IAD
From EWR, we will discontinue service to BWI (Washington-Baltimore), BDL (Hartford, Connecticut) and DSM (Des Moines, Iowa). We will continue to serve BWI, BDL and DSM from multiple hubs
We will suspend winter season service December 19-March 30 between EWR and SMF (Sacramento, California)

“We approached these schedule adjustments with our customers in mind, knowing that we wanted to create a schedule that offers customers beginning their travel in the New York City area convenient flights to many of the business and leisure destinations they travel to most,” Ankit said. “Since more of our customers begin their travel from New York/Newark than any other United hub city, our team went to create a more customer friendly schedule that removed connection times and provided convenient nonstop service to multiple U.S. destinations.”


We are contacting our customers with reservations on discontinued flights to offer them alternate flight options or provide refunds. All changes will be reflected in published flight schedules effective May 12. All impacted destinations will continue to be served by at least one United hub.

By Peter Rapalus
The handwriting may be on the wall
United is following deltas lead ,cut out a lot of regional flying and do it with mainline aircraft.
It’s definitely coming


Great. More mainline jobs with mainline pay, just as the majors approach record numbers of mandatory age retirements. Prospects have seldom been brighter for those of us who were never planning to be regional lifers to begin with.

FlyyGuyy
05-16-2018, 07:57 AM
Hear that BOB and JT holdings, we are sick and tired of covering your flying YOU cant staff, because of years of irogance on your part!
You will now offer us 10-20K a year as a retention bonus if you want AWA to be around in a year. Why on earth would anyone consider this dumpster?

What the heck does irogance mean?

Day4mx
05-16-2018, 08:21 AM
Ignorant arrogance.

StrykerB21
05-16-2018, 08:35 AM
So when this is voted down and our negotiators are fired how long should we expect the next TA? A decade?

blindfayth
05-16-2018, 09:14 AM
This is pretty insane.

Ask your management how many staffing problems Endeavor is having. Something about paying people what they are worth (and not just new hires) seems to resonate pretty well with employees.

The line is out the door and backed up for ~ 7 months over there.

Inside DEENA
05-16-2018, 10:04 AM
So when this is voted down and our negotiators are fired how long should we expect the next TA? A decade?

I would think it would actually have to be fairly quick, as the company needs this more than the pilot group does, what with the implosion from lack of staffing occurring daily.

ID

donkeyjockey
05-16-2018, 10:07 AM
Anything to address the endless Jr man calls and extensions and poor Qol we currently have?
We have kept this Co afloat with our sacrifice and hardwork and this is how we are shown appreciation??
Management has failed to come forward and let us know what the plan is going forward. We are loosing more than we can hire and get through training,yet they don’t see a problem.
Say no to extensions and Jr mans,go home on your scheduled off days and spend time with family and friends and take care of your personal business,don’t put it off for them. At the end of the day it’s managements responsibility to make sure we are properly staffed and flights get covered,not mine.Im tired of scheduling telling me if you don’t accept this extension or Jr man then these flights will cancel.From now on cancel the
MF then , I don’t care anymore.
I’m tired of mgmt sitting there quietly as we are working like dogs to keep this operation going. Eff em




There are individuals receiving actual UNV's for refusing jrman's. What to do about that???

Flying101
05-16-2018, 11:12 AM
u dont wanna go there.

Why is that?

Flying101
05-16-2018, 11:21 AM
TA will pass, same reason the “industry standard” Spirit TA passed. My guess 90% of AWAC pilots don’t plan on staying at AWAC for their entire career. So why not making little more cash while waiting for the phone to ring? If the TA is voted down how many more years before another TA? Another few years for what? $15 more per hour. It’s unfortunate.

Excargodog
05-16-2018, 11:38 AM
There are individuals receiving actual UNV's for refusing jrman's. What to do about that???

Of course, the simple fix is to get drunk any time you aren't scheduled for duty. Beerios for breakfast, anyone?

billyho
05-16-2018, 01:06 PM
So when this is voted down and our negotiators are fired how long should we expect the next TA? A decade?

Decade??? They won’t be around then. Management might be setting this up for a merger and running off with millions before doors shut. This seems like a packaging deal to me.

SilentLurker
05-16-2018, 02:05 PM
TA will pass, same reason the “industry standard” Spirit TA passed. My guess 90% of AWAC pilots don’t plan on staying at AWAC for their entire career. So why not making little more cash while waiting for the phone to ring? If the TA is voted down how many more years before another TA? Another few years for what? $15 more per hour. It’s unfortunate.


So ALPA at United is not having talks with ALPA AWAC to get you guys seniority numbers at United? (a flow). How about Commutair flow or seniority at United?

A flow will help, new equipment will help, more base options will help.

Does the company (United & AWAC) think you guys/gals are already to expensive for United or do they really want to squeeze as much pennies out of you as possible? Something to consider.

Excargodog
05-16-2018, 02:36 PM
So ALPA at United is not having talks with ALPA AWAC to get you guys seniority numbers at United? (a flow).

I'm by no means anti-ALPA, BUT each ALPA unit seems to care far more about their own membership than any other ALPA unit. I don't believe I've ever seen any union at any of the majors do much of anything to help out their regional codeshare affiliate.

And in fairness, now that there are opportunities for most people to move up, even without a flow, even the regional pilots seem to have less enthusiasm for working contract issues that will take years to resolve. Most younger pilots hope not to be around to see a contract that will take three or four years to develop. Increasingly people seem to be assuming the marketplace will take care of it - that unless management initiates changes that improve salary or QOL, the candidate pool will just dry up, making management either improve things or go out of business.

Flying101
05-16-2018, 02:40 PM
So ALPA at United is not having talks with ALPA AWAC to get you guys seniority numbers at United? (a flow). How about Commutair flow or seniority at United?

A flow will help, new equipment will help, more base options will help.

Does the company (United & AWAC) think you guys/gals are already to expensive for United or do they really want to squeeze as much pennies out of you as possible? Something to consider.

AWAC is not wholly owned any kind of flow would not be in the contract. Equipment has nothing to do with the TA. Bases are United choice. AWAC already claims to be the highest paid regional (w/ bonuses). This TA is a joke. Sadly the $8K plus $5K annuals will win enough YES votes. I left AWAC 3 years ago, voted NO for the last sh*** TA.

Inside DEENA
05-16-2018, 03:25 PM
AWAC is not wholly owned any kind of flow would not be in the contract. Equipment has nothing to do with the TA. Bases are United choice. AWAC already claims to be the highest paid regional (w/ bonuses). This TA is a joke. Sadly the $8K plus $5K annuals will win enough YES votes. I left AWAC 3 years ago, voted NO for the last sh*** TA.

There would have to be 50% +1 for this TA to pass. That would be roughly 251 pilots voting YES.

As of right now, I highly doubt there are that many yes voters.

ID

mpet
05-16-2018, 03:34 PM
Why is that?

prex is a delta boi 100%

StrykerB21
05-16-2018, 03:44 PM
TA will pass, same reason the “industry standard” Spirit TA passed. My guess 90% of AWAC pilots don’t plan on staying at AWAC for their entire career. So why not making little more cash while waiting for the phone to ring? If the TA is voted down how many more years before another TA? Another few years for what? $15 more per hour. It’s unfortunate.

I think you underestimate just how ****ed off the pilot group is. This will fail spectacularly.

mpet
05-16-2018, 03:55 PM
awac pilots wont cave to this garbage. never.

Soxfan1
05-16-2018, 04:59 PM
There would have to be 50% +1 for this TA to pass. That would be roughly 251 pilots voting YES.

As of right now, I highly doubt there are that many yes voters.

ID


There may be 500+ on the seniority list but remember those with less than one year can’t vote. Take out management / instructor pilots and I bet there are only 350-375 dues paying members currently that are eligible to vote. 50%+1 may only require about 180 or so.

Don’t underestimate that there could be 180 yes votes out there. I have yet to hear from any but what people say in the flight deck/tiny crew room and the lever they pull are not always the same.

Pass or not - I’ll still take the over on the number of yes votes as I think it will be higher than most think.

Soxfan1
05-16-2018, 05:00 PM
There may be 500+ on the seniority list but remember those with less than one year can’t vote. Take out management / instructor pilots and I bet there are only 350-375 dues paying members currently that are eligible to vote. 50%+1 may only require about 180 or so.

Don’t underestimate that there could be 180 yes votes out there. I have yet to hear from any but what people say in the flight deck/tiny crew room and the lever they pull are not always the same.

Pass or not - I’ll still take the over on the number of yes votes as I think it will be higher than most think.

That said, I don’t think it should, or will, pass.

Bartender
05-16-2018, 05:04 PM
Stand strong! Regional pilots have incredible leverage right now.

RJ4LIFE
05-17-2018, 05:27 AM
And in fairness, now that there are opportunities for most people to move up, even without a flow, even the regional pilots seem to have less enthusiasm for working contract issues that will take years to resolve. Most younger pilots hope not to be around to see a contract that will take three or four years to develop. Increasingly people seem to be assuming the marketplace will take care of it - that unless management initiates changes that improve salary or QOL, the candidate pool will just dry up, making management either improve things or go out of business.

This fact might very well give this TA a chance of passing, and I'm guessing that's what managment is banking on. You already have a decent number of very senior captains who are committed to Awac until retirement and they'll likely vote yes just to protect the status quo (e.g. current insurance and 401k), just like they did for the last TA. Add to them the number of pilots who expect to be gone in the next few years and will begrudgingly take the bonus money because they assume they'll be gone before the potential benefits of a third TA are realized, and you are probably getting dangerously close to 50.1%.

Aerostar1
05-17-2018, 08:41 AM
This TA must be a joke. Where is the real one? What an insult to our professional pilot group. Can I vote No today..

Flying101
05-17-2018, 11:30 AM
There would have to be 50% +1 for this TA to pass. That would be roughly 251 pilots voting YES.

As of right now, I highly doubt there are that many yes voters.

ID

I hope it doesn’t pass

AV810
05-17-2018, 05:46 PM
[This TA must be a joke. Where is the real one? ]

It's probably so the company can claim they "made a good faith effort." Failing to make ANY offer could jeopardize their position in any future litigation or arbitration. This way they float an unacceptable offer and when it is rejected they can say it's the Union's fault.

BFMthisA10
05-18-2018, 03:04 AM
This TA must be a joke. Where is the real one? What an insult to our professional pilot group. Can I vote No today..Yes, you can.

The key to earning more money may be switching jobs - Business Insider (http://www.businessinsider.com/earn-more-money-switching-jobs-2017-7)

I'm saddened by this TA, I was really hoping for more. It's disappointing, but you can lead a horse to water, and all that. My #1 theory at this point is that management is carrying out their marching orders from the ownership; only explanation that makes sense in my mind, noone can be that obtuse. It's unfortunate, as I think that a company of this size and structure could be far more agile than the rest of the field and leverage that strength. But if the owners have zero faith in the FFD business model beyond the medium term, then their priorities are probably aligned to limit their costs and maximize their take before it's time to put the assets on the auction block.

Regardless, back to the above article: deliberately choose your path. While more traditional lines of effort (mediation, picketing, work slowdown, strike, etc) have their usefulness in certain circumstances, sometimes it's up to you to pick the correct tool for the job at hand: and in this case that probably means voting on this TA with your feet. I've heard quite a few grumblings from across the cockpit in recent weeks that amount to sunk cost fallacy. There are better options.

ZenoAir
05-18-2018, 04:49 AM
Yes we can and yes we will,

This turd TA was given to us by a MEC and negotiating committee who is obviously tired and needs to head back to the line. I can't stomach paying these guys ANY more FPL for nothing! Get out of office!

We will vote this piece of **it TA down and now expect major retention bonuses, and a signing bonuses. There will be no operational excellence until this happens. BOB get ready to come fly the line and lead! Maybe Thompson needs to come back and clean up his little cash cow.

lukeh99
05-18-2018, 08:39 AM
But if the owners have zero faith in the FFD business model beyond the medium term, then their priorities are probably aligned to limit their costs and maximize their take before it's time to put the assets on the auction block.


This seems to me like the most likely explanation for what's going on here.

Day4mx
05-18-2018, 09:16 AM
Yes we can and yes we will,

This turd TA was given to us by a MEC and negotiating committee who is obviously tired and needs to head back to the line. I can't stomach paying these guys ANY more FPL for nothing! Get out of office!

We will vote this piece of **it TA down and now expect major retention bonuses, and a signing bonuses. There will be no operational excellence until this happens. BOB get ready to come fly the line and lead! Maybe Thompson needs to come back and clean up his little cash cow.

Bob flies the line.

FlyPKP
05-18-2018, 10:26 AM
Q: Can ALPA send out a summary of all language changes, additions, and removals so we don’t have to read the current contract and TA side by side to determine each individual change?

A: There are too many changes in the TA to individually list every one. Major highlights will be presented in the outreach materials that we are currently developing and will be available on this website as they are completed. In the meantime, we hope every pilot reads the TA, compares it to the current CBA, and develop their own position on the TA as a complete package.

What they really mean is. "We gave away a ton of things we're hoping you won't notice. We also don't want to do our job and list the changes because this is a bad deal and you just need to vote it in. However, we will highlight the menial 'gains' we obtained even though we sold out the rest of the contract. In the meantime, try to make sense of lawyer talk and I hope you won't read it because it's long and boring."

This should be a huge red flag about this deal. They don't want to be honest about what's actually inside of it.:mad:

Pilotdude3407
05-18-2018, 11:30 AM
...What they really mean is. "We gave away a ton of things we're hoping you won't notice.

...They don't want to be honest about what's actually inside of it.:mad:


So they are dishonest and lying to you, but somehow you would blindly believe the changes document they would send to you?

How about you do your due diligence and read it for yourself instead of criticizing them for being too lazy to create a document explaining every last word change because you are in fact too lazy to read it for yourself.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

FlyPKP
05-18-2018, 12:16 PM
So they are dishonest and lying to you, but somehow you would blindly believe the changes document they would send to you?

How about you do your due diligence and read it for yourself instead of criticizing them for being too lazy to create a document explaining every last word change because you are in fact too lazy to read it for yourself.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Never said I wasn’t or didn’t read it. But I’m glad to see they’re not even trying to lie this time. just Pointing it out.

diverdriver2
05-18-2018, 02:03 PM
What they really mean is. "We gave away a ton of things we're hoping you won't notice. We also don't want to do our job and list the changes because this is a bad deal and you just need to vote it in. However, we will highlight the menial 'gains' we obtained even though we sold out the rest of the contract. In the meantime, try to make sense of lawyer talk and I hope you won't read it because it's long and boring."

This should be a huge red flag about this deal. They don't want to be honest about what's actually inside of it.:mad:

Agreed. I can't believe they did NOT create a side by side detail list of changes. But let's say they didn't. That would mean the MEC voted on a 210 page document changing our contract that you couldn't possibly find all the changes made on your own in three days of meeting. So either way our MEC has completely failed us.

lukeh99
05-18-2018, 03:43 PM
So they are dishonest and lying to you, but somehow you would blindly believe the changes document they would send to you?

How about you do your due diligence and read it for yourself instead of criticizing them for being too lazy to create a document explaining every last word change because you are in fact too lazy to read it for yourself.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You would think the changes would be something they were tracking anyway so why not publish it? It seems like an utter waste of time to ask each pilot to make their own comparison.

CRJ All Day
05-18-2018, 04:14 PM
Do you guys have a screenshot of the preposed TA? Also when do you vote on it?

Soxfan1
05-18-2018, 05:19 PM
Do you guys have a screenshot of the preposed TA? Also when do you vote on it?

It’s like 200+ pages long.

Junkyard Dog
05-18-2018, 06:16 PM
http://arwcontract.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/ARW-New-TA-2018-pilot-release.pdf

tonsterboy5
05-18-2018, 11:20 PM
What am I missing that has everyone a “no” vote? This TA along with our current contract have us getting paid more than just about every other regional with mostly better rules if you can live in base.(commuting with JM, and extensions sucks) We make more than the AA wholly owneds, Skywest, tsa, go jet, express jet, silver, seaborn, Penn air, commut air, and Mesa.

Yes we all want more $$ but with the exception of endeavor no one makes more than us flying 50 seaters (not including our new hire bonus) in the lower 48. I simply want my time and to be gone. Yea bonus’ suck compared to higher wage, but if anything they incentivize getting time and getting out after 3 years if possible. Which is very likely with all the retirements approaching.

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 02:48 AM
What am I missing that has everyone a “no” vote? .

The will to be paid what you're worth.

Pilotdude3407
05-19-2018, 03:08 AM
The will to be paid what you're worth.



Which is? In all seriousness, what are you worth? Is it a dollar figure? Is it a list of stuff? What dollar amount or set of work rules would qualify as “what you’re worth”? Also, when you answer the previous question, why did you pick that vs $1 more or one additional work rule?

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 03:28 AM
Which is? In all seriousness, what are you worth? Is it a dollar figure? Is it a list of stuff? What dollar amount or set of work rules would qualify as “what you’re worth”? Also, when you answer the previous question, why did you pick that vs $1 more or one additional work rule?

I've filled out the appropriate polls and surveys that touch on all this. This TA falls short of what I, and many others wanted. In fact the mec says as much, yet still approved it for a vote.

Pilotdude3407
05-19-2018, 03:55 AM
I've filled out the appropriate polls and surveys that touch on all this. This TA falls short of what I, and many others wanted. In fact the mec says as much, yet still approved it for a vote.



The MEC has basically said that they have hit a wall. For whatever reason ATW isn’t paying more. Maybe they don’t have it or maybe they don’t want to. In their opinion continuing to bargain for however much longer would not produce anywhere close to what the pilot group wants. So take this money or not. That seems to be the bottom line. And before you say we will just strike, you might want to look at how that is going for Frontier.

Also, as it always seem to go like this, pilots are mad at whatever MEC’s do. They are mad when the mec don’t let pilots decide and they are mad when the mec do let the pilots decide.

squib
05-19-2018, 04:11 AM
So they are dishonest and lying to you, but somehow you would blindly believe the changes document they would send to you?

How about you do your due diligence and read it for yourself instead of criticizing them for being too lazy to create a document explaining every last word change because you are in fact too lazy to read it for yourself.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The fact that the union response is "there are too many changes to list every one" is ridiculous. Do they not even know what they signed? How is there not a comprehensive list of every single change? It's only 200 pages, not that hard.

The company even comes out with detailed and highlighted "summary of changes" for revisions which happen far more often than this.

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 04:15 AM
Then I guess they'll just keep having ta's that fail, a less than happy pilot group, and trouble staffing.

Everyone acting like it's 2008 and the economy just tanked.

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 04:22 AM
In their opinion continuing to bargain...

There's a big problem right there. Their opinion is of no concern of mine. I/we pay dues, fill out polls, talk at coffee stands, to have them voice OUR opinion. When they say well we know you guys said you wanted xyz but in our opinion decided we'll just accept this language and put it to a vote, it's probably time to start voting them out too.

Aerostar1
05-19-2018, 04:27 AM
This TA falls short of even the most modest expectations. 1 percent in mid 2020. Better part of a decade negotiating?

squib
05-19-2018, 04:34 AM
There's a big problem right there. Their opinion is of no concern of mine. I/we pay dues, fill out polls, talk at coffee stands, to have them voice OUR opinion. When they say well we know you guys said you wanted xyz but in our opinion decided we'll just accept this language and put it to a vote, it's probably time to start voting them out too.


EXACTLY

How on earth does the MEC vote this as a yes to send to the pilot group when it clearly is the opposite of what the pilot polls showed. They even acknowledged that fact, yet here it is anyway.

Send them all back to the line and let them deal with the junior mans for a change.

StrykerB21
05-19-2018, 04:40 AM
Which is? In all seriousness, what are you worth? Is it a dollar figure? Is it a list of stuff? What dollar amount or set of work rules would qualify as “what you’re worth”? Also, when you answer the previous question, why did you pick that vs $1 more or one additional work rule?

Think about how many cancellations happen every week because the company doesn't have enough pilots. To get pilots in the door and to the line is going to require a lot more than they're offering. Not to mention the contract violations and abuses the pilots have had to put up with the past few years. Finally the contract we are currently operating on is concessionary itself. Some people have lost as much as 10% of their pay when it was signed. To get 1% of that back, TWO YEARS from now is a smack in the face. Do I have a particular dollar figure in mind? I do, but I'm not dumb enough to advertise that to the forum and to the company and potentially undermine any future negotiations though.

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 04:43 AM
Think about how many cancellations happen every week because the company doesn't have enough pilots. To get pilots in the door and to the line is going to require a lot more than they're offering. Not to mention the contract violations and abuses the pilots have had to put up with the past few years. Finally the contract we are currently operating on is concessionary itself. Some people have lost as much as 10% of their pay when it was signed. To get 1% of that back, TWO YEARS from now is a smack in the face. Do I have a particular dollar figure in mind? I do, but I'm not dumb enough to advertise that to the forum and to the company and potentially undermine any future negotiations though.

Indeed indeed.

T28driver
05-19-2018, 05:57 AM
I would love to seen a write up on what happens if/when this gets voted down, specifically with regard to negotiations. Do we get to start with a blank slate, or are we hamstrung by our “asks” of the past 8 years?

There are a lot of people out there that are ignorant of the rules in this situation, myself included.

WesternSkies
05-19-2018, 06:01 AM
It’s like 200+ pages long.

Gotta pass it to know what’s in it*

Pilotdude3407
05-19-2018, 06:10 AM
I would love to seen a write up on what happens if/when this gets voted down, specifically with regard to negotiations. Do we get to start with a blank slate, or are we hamstrung by our “asks” of the past 8 years?



There are a lot of people out there that are ignorant of the rules in this situation, myself included.



It will restart negotiations. All sections are back open for bargaining. With that being said, with a second failed TA, you will probably be replacing your leadership and negotiating committee, plus all the mec that either get recalled or resign. So with all the work that goes into that and getting brought up to speed plus looking at how long it took from TA 2015, I can’t imagine we will be back at the table anytime soon.

blindfayth
05-19-2018, 06:21 AM
Gotta pass it to know what’s in it*

Sounds like bills on capitol hill!

Excargodog
05-19-2018, 06:31 AM
It will restart negotiations. All sections are back open for bargaining. With that being said, with a second failed TA, you will probably be replacing your leadership and negotiating committee, plus all the mec that either get recalled or resign. So with all the work that goes into that and getting brought up to speed plus looking at how long it took from TA 2015, I can’t imagine we will be back at the table anytime soon.

At a certain point the negotiations between the union and the company sort of become academic. How long can management keep adequate staffing when annual raises are less than the increase in the cost of living? Yes, SOME people will come here, but the vast majority of qualified applicants will have better options. This isn't just a labor dispute. It's about the viability of the company itself.

tonsterboy5
05-19-2018, 06:38 AM
The only way to get an improvement in pay is by failing to fill seats and canceling flights, which is already happening. Voting on this ta will have zero impact on the length of time before they come back with more money. If they want to stay in busines they will have to pay more very soon. If this contract is passed, Seats will remain empty, if it’s voted down seats will remain empty. If someone else wants more money they have that option now, they just have to deal with a months longer training footprint and months more reserve. I would rather cut a year off my time building and get to a major that much faster. Plus for new hires places like edv have over 6 months before you can even get to class. Maybe I am missing something but 6 months before class followed by 6 months longer training followed by a year on reserve in nyc is what people want all to make an extra 30k over the next 4 years. Factor in our bonus and the fact we have limited training delay and reserve one will get to a major a year sooner if they come here, and still make almost the same as someone at edv. I want my time and to be on to bigger and better things. The faster I get to a major the faster I get to making what I really want. I would rather suck it up for a 3-4 years and move on, than having slightly more money for 5-6 years and delay getting to a major a few thousand a year. I will make it up the difference every year that I get to a major faster than the guy who was chasing $10 an hour early on.

Aerostar1
05-19-2018, 06:43 AM
If this insulting TA passes atleast we will be able to biggie size a drink with the extra few cents, but not until 2020...

Excargodog
05-19-2018, 06:58 AM
The only way to get an improvement in pay is by failing to fill seats and canceling flights, which is already happening. Voting on this ta will have zero impact on the length of time before they come back with more money. If they want to stay in busines they will have to pay more very soon. If this contract is passed, Seats will remain empty, if it’s voted down seats will remain empty. If someone else wants more money they have that option now, they just have to deal with a months longer training footprint and months more reserve. I would rather cut a year off my time building and get to a major that much faster. Plus for new hires places like edv have over 6 months before you can even get to class. Maybe I am missing something but 6 months before class followed by 6 months longer training followed by a year on reserve in nyc is what people want all to make an extra 30k over the next 4 years. Factor in our bonus and the fact we have limited training delay and reserve one will get to a major a year sooner if they come here, and still make almost the same as someone at edv. I want my time and to be on to bigger and better things. The faster I get to a major the faster I get to making what I really want. I would rather suck it up for a 3-4 years and move on, than having slightly more money for 5-6 years and delay getting to a major a few thousand a year. I will make it up the difference every year that I get to a major faster than the guy who was chasing $10 an hour early on.

Well, perhaps you aren't as efficient as the guys (and gals) who are now interviewing six months BEFORE they have their ATP minimums, so they can go directly into training as soon as they have them. Most regionals are giving people that option. Heck, some regionals are paying for rotor to fixed wing transition to get people lined up for future classes.

However you personally have this figured out, or believe to be best, that really isn't enough. The place has to be competitive to THE MARKET AS A WHOLE, not just to you and the small increment of the potential new hire population that thinks like you do, and below cost-of-living raises means it will remain less than competitive.

tonsterboy5
05-19-2018, 07:03 AM
Well, perhaps you aren't as efficient as the guys (and gals) who are now interviewing six months BEFORE they have their ATP minimums, so they can go directly into training as soon as they have them. Most regionals are giving people that option. Heck, some regionals are paying for rotor to fixed wing transition to get people lined up for future classes.

However you personally have this figured out, or believe to be best, that really isn't enough. The place has to be competitive to THE MARKET AS A WHOLE, not just to you and the small increment of the potential new hire population that thinks like you do, and below cost-of-living raises means it will remain less than competitive.

Guess what? The places doing this are paying less than air Wisconsin.

tonsterboy5
05-19-2018, 07:11 AM
Yes we should get paid more, yes we should ditch JM and extensions. If anything should be in the contract that isnt its removing JM, extensions and making AW commuter friendly. Like I said before voting no for more $$ is ones own prerogative but I doubt it will get much of a raise. In the companies eyes A,B and c airlines make more than us but d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l,m,n all make less than us. I have a feeling the reason we are not attracting new talent is partly because some people would rather make more now than later in life but most people simple can't deal with commute and crap extensions AW is known for

Excargodog
05-19-2018, 08:39 AM
Guess what? The places doing this are paying less than air Wisconsin.

Less than $36 an hour? No, they are not. A fair number of companies are paying more than that. If Air Wisconsin doesn't stay competitive it will go the way of Great Lakes.

Aerostar1
05-19-2018, 09:41 AM
Any idea when the TA vote is?

AV810
05-19-2018, 11:27 AM
This was originally posted in Skywest, I thought it was applicable to this thread too. Although it was written about new hires, it's applicable to all regional pilots:

F.O. candidates have the equivalent of a second college degree invested in their flight training. Regional pilots spend about 4600 hours a year away from home, either in a cockpit or a hotel. Are you able to use that time to pursue a hobby or spend quality time with your kids? It is more than twice the number of hours a typical worker spends at his 40 hour per week job, and neither number includes commuting time. How many days per month does a commuting pilot spend at airports and hotels? Your pilot job requires continuous training, and you risk losing your career over an incident, busted check rides, or loss of your medical. You are responsible for people's lives in a manner similar to a physician. In today's economy, $60,000 per year can provide a single person with a decent lifestyle and modest retirement savings. It can provide a minimal lifestyle for a small family, but with no savings. For two degrees, double the working hours, and the risk that goes with an airline pilot job, I'd say that a six-figure salary should be the baseline. You can subtract from that the costs and future benefit of a new-hire F.O.'s flight training and IOE and arrive at a reasonable first-year pay, but I maintain that the number is higher than $60,000. Once a pilot is captain qualified, he should get six-figures even if he's still stuck in the right seat.

Pilotdude3407
05-19-2018, 12:26 PM
Less than $36 an hour? No, they are not. A fair number of companies are paying more than that. If Air Wisconsin doesn't stay competitive it will go the way of Great Lakes.



AWAC management has the ability to raise first year pay RIGHT NOW, TODAY to $40/hr per LOA 37. The restriction is they cannot go backwards once they raise it. Guess they aren’t hurting that bad.

pitchtrim
05-19-2018, 03:08 PM
AWAC management has the ability to raise first year pay RIGHT NOW, TODAY to $40/hr per LOA 37. The restriction is they cannot go backwards once they raise it. Guess they aren’t hurting that bad.

If you work here then you should know they aren't properly staffed.

RAHkid94
05-19-2018, 03:36 PM
If you work here then you should know they aren't properly staffed.

Come on, we're only like 25 captains short for tomorrow.

Pilotdude3407
05-19-2018, 04:24 PM
If you work here then you should know they aren't properly staffed.



My point is we don’t control their staffing. We can’t. Staffing is their problem. They have the ability to throw additional money towards new hires in terms of rates and they aren’t even though they are under water. The same goes for negotiations. Until they want to throw a bunch of money at it, it is what it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

squib
05-19-2018, 06:46 PM
AWAC management has the ability to raise first year pay RIGHT NOW, TODAY to $40/hr per LOA 37. The restriction is they cannot go backwards once they raise it. Guess they aren’t hurting that bad.

Apparently you, Ken, are oblivious of day to day operations. Maybe try flying the line. Enjoy your flight pay loss like the rest of the guys who signed off on this hoping for another 2 years of flight pay loss.

Grumbletrousers
05-20-2018, 01:56 AM
What am I missing that has everyone a “no” vote? This TA along with our current contract have us getting paid more than just about every other regional with mostly better rules if you can live in base.(commuting with JM, and extensions sucks) We make more than the AA wholly owneds, Skywest, tsa, go jet, express jet, silver, seaborn, Penn air, commut air, and Mesa.

Yes we all want more $$ but with the exception of endeavor no one makes more than us flying 50 seaters (not including our new hire bonus) in the lower 48. I simply want my time and to be gone. Yea bonus’ suck compared to higher wage, but if anything they incentivize getting time and getting out after 3 years if possible. Which is very likely with all the retirements approaching.

Because we took huge concessions when the company hit hard times. Now when the company is doing well they won’t even give us 2%.

The company can either drastically improve our QOL or give us Endevour rates otherwise it’s a no from me.

ZenoAir
05-20-2018, 04:02 AM
I was saying BF needs to get back to line operations so he can get out of the ATW box. This f.....g place is imploding and I get tired when BOB continues with his lies!

Flubber
05-21-2018, 03:56 PM
It will restart negotiations. All sections are back open for bargaining. With that being said, with a second failed TA, you will probably be replacing your leadership and negotiating committee, plus all the mec that either get recalled or resign. So with all the work that goes into that and getting brought up to speed plus looking at how long it took from TA 2015, I can’t imagine we will be back at the table anytime soon.

I'm sure that if this happens (clean house in the MEC), there are more than enough guys out there that are not only willing to step up, but they know how to get the job done so we'll have a new TA by the end of the year. EDV + 5% pay, DAL per diem, no JMs, and all the other good stuff. Get that and I'll consider sticking around this place.

StrykerB21
05-23-2018, 01:02 PM
Anyone attending the webinar?

Day4mx
05-23-2018, 07:07 PM
Anyone attending the webinar?

No. If i wanted to f--- myself, i much prefer chaturbate.

fenix1
05-23-2018, 10:00 PM
Is this TA a sign that ownership plans to cash in - one way or another - within 2 years? (i.e., trying to keep everyone just happy enough for smoke to keep coming off the tires for one more day for as long as they can?)

Is the removal of pay rates for equipment with capacity of more than 50 pax noteworthy? Seems to contribute to the cash-in theory on one hand (doesn't AW almost HAVE to upgrade soon to remain viable??), but - on the other hand - if this agreement is written with just a 24 month term length in mind then I may reading into this unnecessarily.

StrykerB21
05-24-2018, 03:49 AM
Is this TA a sign that ownership plans to cash in - one way or another - within 2 years? (i.e., trying to keep everyone just happy enough for smoke to keep coming off the tires for one more day for as long as they can?)

Is the removal of pay rates for equipment with capacity of more than 50 pax noteworthy? Seems to contribute to the cash-in theory on one hand (doesn't AW almost HAVE to upgrade soon to remain viable??), but - on the other hand - if this agreement is written with just a 24 month term length in mind then I may reading into this unnecessarily.

Its a sign the owners are happy with the status quo. Thats all, read nothing more into it than that.

FlyPKP
05-24-2018, 05:26 AM
Meanwhile Skywest gets a TA Proposal with some proper pay rates....

JuniorFO
05-24-2018, 06:06 AM
Meanwhile Skywest gets a TA Proposal with some proper pay rates....

Ehhh, far from proper pay rates.

FlyPKP
05-24-2018, 06:31 AM
Ehhh, far from proper pay rates.

Better than what we have......

CAirBear
05-24-2018, 10:31 AM
Is this TA a sign that ownership plans to cash in - one way or another - within 2 years? (i.e., trying to keep everyone just happy enough for smoke to keep coming off the tires for one more day for as long as they can?)

Is the removal of pay rates for equipment with capacity of more than 50 pax noteworthy? Seems to contribute to the cash-in theory on one hand (doesn't AW almost HAVE to upgrade soon to remain viable??), but - on the other hand - if this agreement is written with just a 24 month term length in mind then I may reading into this unnecessarily.

I would think that is definitely possible. Here is why.

Let’s not kid ourselves. I feel it was exceptional dumb-luck for AWAC that AA was stupid enough to allow their President in Scott Kirby to become President, of your biggest competitor without a single Non-Compete Clause, in United. That still is mind blowing to me.

Anyhow, so Kirby, who is an RJ *****, heads off to United knowing full well that AWAC was finished with AA in Feb 2018. He uses the leverage he has (which is clear we don’t have a dance partner in AA or Delta after the failed AIP) and makes us an offer.

I feel that the doors very well were closing this past Feb, but the RJ ***** got his fix one last time. I also highly doubt, given who Kirby is, that they are getting their beloved “10%” margin they would always spout off about. I think he took what he knew (no one to partner with) and used it against them in a “take it or leave it” deal.

BigWillyCapt
05-24-2018, 05:11 PM
People have been speculating a merger/buyout/etc for years. The owners are making $$$ every day on airplanes they have either paid off or still have great financing on. They don't want to close the doors or give up their cash cow.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 07:03 AM
I hear you guys have reached a TA. Any details on what improvements you will receive? I hope it's a good deal for you guys.

Not many improvements here , let’s throw this one out.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 07:17 AM
Except that the ORD base for RAH is shrinking by the month.
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/republic-airline/113169-ord-disappearing-act.html

#operationalexcellence

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 07:17 AM
from what i’m hearing ,if this ta isn’t what we deserve,a lot of people will be looking for employment elsewhere.im sick and dam tired of jr mans and fdp extensions,absolutely tired of it.
Republic?? Same ord base,no jr man in their contract,better pay and hella better equipment.
Let them continue to loose flying and have staffing issues until we get what we deserve.
Maybe one day they will get their heads out of their arses in atw.

#operationalexcellence!!!

StrykerB21
05-27-2018, 07:26 AM
Since flight crews are really where the rubber meets the road operationally, the only thing operational excellence can attempt to do is motivate us to work harder. Reading the announcement thats essentially what theyre trying to do.

Pilots in general are helpful dedicated people, and this is an appeal to that nature. Its a psychological ploy to convince us to pick up open time or accept that junior man. Im flying my line and thats it. Not gonna play ball with them until they play ball with us.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 07:50 AM
Apparently you, Ken, are oblivious of day to day operations. Maybe try flying the line. Enjoy your flight pay loss like the rest of the guys who signed off on this hoping for another 2 years of flight pay loss.

Damnnnn HAHA!

I tend to agree.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 07:57 AM
Since flight crews are really where the rubber meets the road operationally, the only thing operational excellence can attempt to do is motivate us to work harder. Reading the announcement thats essentially what theyre trying to do.

Pilots in general are helpful dedicated people, and this is an appeal to that nature. Its a psychological ploy to convince us to pick up open time or accept that junior man. Im flying my line and thats it. Not gonna play ball with them until they play ball with us.

“Just work 1 percent harder in 2 years”

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 12:31 PM
I skimmed it through, looking forward to cliff notes on what has changed for the better or worse. It looks like the same 2003 contract with small longevity bonuses.

Frustrated and disappointed.

If you watch the presentation online , they present the TA like it’s new stuff, most is current book.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 12:38 PM
So what does Air Wisconsin have at this point to attract any new hires?
I guess good insurance, which typically isn't that big of an issue for new hires since they don't have families, illnesses (younger age), etc. Hate to say it, but they just fell off a lot of people's lists. I think GoJet, Mesa, etc are all better options for just about anyone.

This is why most of the new hire class includes older people , hence the insurance.

Greensideup
05-27-2018, 12:58 PM
TA will pass, same reason the “industry standard” Spirit TA passed. My guess 90% of AWAC pilots don’t plan on staying at AWAC for their entire career. So why not making little more cash while waiting for the phone to ring? If the TA is voted down how many more years before another TA? Another few years for what? $15 more per hour. It’s unfortunate.

We voted down our TA in 2015 and in 2016 we were offered retention bonuses , FOs received 20k. What did captains get? 7,500?

Vote it down and money will come.

Day4mx
05-27-2018, 01:11 PM
“Just work 1 percent harder in 2 years”

Precisely. And when we start 2 hours late and play catch up all day with 24 minute turns...acars msg for a meal break. That acars works both way.

Grumbletrousers
05-27-2018, 05:21 PM
We voted down our TA in 2015 and in 2016 we were offered retention bonuses , FOs received 20k. What did captains get? 7,500?

Vote it down and money will come.

That LOA was the worse thing the union could have done. It gave away our biggest bargaining chip in negotiations.

If this TA gets voted down, any new pay raises or bonuses NEED to be done via a new contract and not a LOA.

Greensideup
05-28-2018, 01:51 AM
Precisely. And when we start 2 hours late and play catch up all day with 24 minute turns...acars msg for a meal break. That acars works both way.

I heard of a guy getting chewed out by a asst. chief pilot for utilizing the meal break during a duty day over 12 hours. Can you believe that??

FlyPKP
05-28-2018, 03:19 AM
I heard of a guy getting chewed out by a asst. chief pilot for utilizing the meal break during a duty day over 12 hours. Can you believe that??

Depending on which a. chief, absolutely.

mcat
05-28-2018, 03:25 AM
I heard of a guy getting chewed out by a asst. chief pilot for utilizing the meal break during a duty day over 12 hours. Can you believe that??

I would have walked right out of the room if anyone did that to me. Then immediately file an ASAP and an ALPA issue form.

stroopwaffle
05-28-2018, 04:04 AM
I can only believe it if the crew didn’t give a heads up to ops and DX that they would be taking a meal break. They like to hear a leg or two in advance.

Captains discretion though, if they lost their breaks due to playing catch-up and the CA was able to give a good reason for doing it at the last minute then take a meal break. We aren’t robots.

Greensideup
05-28-2018, 06:37 AM
I can only believe it if the crew didn’t give a heads up to ops and DX that they would be taking a meal break. They like to hear a leg or two in advance.

Captains discretion though, if they lost their breaks due to playing catch-up and the CA was able to give a good reason for doing it at the last minute then take a meal break. We aren’t robots.

Delayed and playing catch up, the crew ate a heavy breakfast and light snack at lunch... their 3 hour sit at dinnertome prior to the overnight got washed away due to maintaince during the start of the day. FA and FO were hungry , the CA was also hungry , DX was advised..... yet the CA is being chewed out by one of the asst. managers. This is the story I was told. 🤷🏼*♂️

Aerostar1
05-28-2018, 06:41 AM
They can chew the pilot's out all they want. The flights are not going to depart until the crew feels satisfactory in any circumstance.

Greensideup
05-28-2018, 07:27 AM
They can chew the pilot's out all they want. The flights are not going to depart until the crew feels satisfactory in any circumstance.

#notsigningtherelease

Greensideup
05-28-2018, 07:27 AM
Let’s get back to contract talk, lots of FOs are saying “take the money and run”

Run where? Has mainline offered you a class date?

StrykerB21
05-28-2018, 08:25 AM
Let’s get back to contract talk, lots of FOs are saying “take the money and run”

Run where? Has mainline offered you a class date?

How many of those FOs are even eligible to vote? Quite a few of them are still on probation. I wouldnt worry about it.

T28driver
05-28-2018, 08:55 AM
How many of those FOs are even eligible to vote? Quite a few of them are still on probation. I wouldnt worry about it.

You also don’t get to “take the money and run” for at least a year if you want all of it.

Soxfan1
05-28-2018, 12:59 PM
How many of those FOs are even eligible to vote? Quite a few of them are still on probation. I wouldnt worry about it.

The bottom 150 or so is on probation depending when the vote is scheduled. Plus any FO not on probation hired in the first 5 months last year is not eligible for the bonus. My guess is less than 100 FOs would both be voting and bonus elligable. So you are correct it is a minority of total voters.

4myfamily
06-26-2018, 10:32 AM
Have you all voted on TA?

ZenoAir
06-26-2018, 01:33 PM
oh ya...we have voted....we are turning this thing down!
Heard from a reliable source today that we are buying another regional!
Wait for it....

Grumbletrousers
06-26-2018, 04:39 PM
Have you all voted on TA?

I was on the fence, but in the end decided to vote no.

prex8390
06-26-2018, 06:01 PM
When are the results coming out

RANGER211
06-26-2018, 06:59 PM
Early July. After the votes are counted the MEC and negotiating committee need time to type their letter of resignation. After 2 failed TA’s it’s time for a change in the guard. They have totally disregarded all the polling and brought a **** sandwich to the table for us to sign. Um NO!

idlethrust
06-26-2018, 08:55 PM
I was on the fence, but in the end decided to vote no.

Good choice
Noooooooooooooo

StrykerB21
06-27-2018, 02:32 AM
Early July. After the votes are counted the MEC and negotiating committee need time to type their letter of resignation. After 2 failed TA’s it’s time for a change in the guard. They have totally disregarded all the polling and brought a **** sandwich to the table for us to sign. Um NO!

Thats pretty much the reason I voted no. We need new leadership.

squib
06-27-2018, 06:33 PM
How many of those FOs are even eligible to vote? Quite a few of them are still on probation. I wouldnt worry about it.

Apparently you didn't notice that those 18-24 month upgrade advertisements from 2 years ago didn't follow through, so yes, a lot of FO's are eligible to vote.

StrykerB21
06-28-2018, 04:00 AM
The bottom 150 or so is on probation depending when the vote is scheduled. Plus any FO not on probation hired in the first 5 months last year is not eligible for the bonus. My guess is less than 100 FOs would both be voting and bonus elligable. So you are correct it is a minority of total voters.

Quoted for squib.

Day4mx
06-28-2018, 04:30 AM
oh ya...we have voted....we are turning this thing down!
Heard from a reliable source today that we are buying another regional!
Wait for it....

This. I have a hunch we may buy another unitedexpress crj 700 operator. Allegedly its been for sale forever and this would certainly increase our market share.

stroopwaffle
06-28-2018, 05:44 AM
“Reliable source”

StrykerB21
06-28-2018, 05:47 AM
Were not buying anything.

idlethrust
06-28-2018, 07:22 AM
This. I have a hunch we may buy another unitedexpress crj 700 operator. Allegedly its been for sale forever and this would certainly increase our market share.

You’re smoking something if you think AWAC is in a position to buy anything or anyone.Not going to happen
The only 700 operator they could possibly agree on a buyout with is G7but their delta contract was just extended so that wouldn’t make sense
Someone needs to buy AWAC and give us some better equipment and negotiate a descent contract

Grumbletrousers
06-28-2018, 07:51 AM
Were not buying anything.

We’re much more likely to be bought. Keeping the operations costs low (i.e pilot pay) makes the company more appealing for a buyout. Much like Frontier.

Whether or not this happens depends on what happens with United’s Pilot and FA contracts.

Either way I think we’ll know by late 2019 what the future of AWA holds.

idlethrust
06-28-2018, 10:09 AM
We’re much more likely to be bought. Keeping the operations costs low (i.e pilot pay) makes the company more appealing for a buyout. Much like Frontier.

Whether or not this happens depends on what happens with United’s Pilot and FA contracts.

Either way I think we’ll know by late 2019 what the future of AWA holds.
Don’t plan on being here late 2019 lol

prex8390
06-28-2018, 10:17 AM
Don’t plan on being here late 2019 lol

Time to bust out Sunrise or sunset tags again? Lol

CVGair
06-29-2018, 11:25 AM
Must look at situation outside of bubble, Past, Present, Future. The reality, the big picture. It is what it is regardless of what is wanted. Would the Feds release to strike? (oh you think they would huh?) Is United's master plan a wholly owned model? Does your vote help or hurt your present, your future. Don't vote on emotion, don't vote on the past.

Do you really believe you will get much better based on current industry standards? How long will that take? Of course more is wanted but is that the reality of regional flying today? How does this contract compare with other regionals? The Union signed off on this contract.

TAKE the money or not

PassportPlump
06-29-2018, 03:35 PM
Must look at situation outside of bubble, Past, Present, Future. The reality, the big picture. It is what it is regardless of what is wanted. Would the Feds release to strike? (oh you think they would huh?) Is United's master plan a wholly owned model? Does your vote help or hurt your present, your future. Don't vote on emotion, don't vote on the past.

Do you really believe you will get much better based on current industry standards? How long will that take? Of course more is wanted but is that the reality of regional flying today? How does this contract compare with other regionals? The Union signed off on this contract.

TAKE the money or not

I used to work at AWAC. Your comment indicates that Air Wisconsin going on strike is impossible due to the fact that they are so big. That is not the case. If Spirit was released a few years ago, Air Wisconsin could be released as well.

Is the NMB going to release United? No. Could they release Air Wisconsin? Absolutely. If this TA is voted down, that union structure there must be pulled down and replaced piece by piece. If the TA passes, welcome to the regional pit of misery! Dilly Dilly!

StrykerB21
06-29-2018, 05:25 PM
The 2015 TA was what ruined the current one for us. The NMB isn't going to allow either side to raise their demands from the last offer. I understand when the union says this was the best they can do. They put us in this position though and in my opinion new leadership will be an improvement. If it takes time thats alright, we have time on our side as industry standard is only increasing. I want our leadership investing for the long term future of our pilot group, not the short term.

squib
06-29-2018, 06:53 PM
The NMB isn't going to allow either side to raise their demands from the last offer.

Really? What background do you have to make that statement.

squib
06-29-2018, 06:57 PM
TAKE the money or not

Looks like another YES voter happy to get a measly bonus. You probably only read the bullet points as well instead of the actual language.

StrykerB21
06-30-2018, 04:17 AM
Really? What background do you have to make that statement.

Because thats not how mediation works.

RJ4LIFE
06-30-2018, 04:30 AM
I used to work at AWAC. Your comment indicates that Air Wisconsin going on strike is impossible due to the fact that they are so big. That is not the case. If Spirit was released a few years ago, Air Wisconsin could be released as well.

Is the NMB going to release United? No. Could they release Air Wisconsin? Absolutely. If this TA is voted down, that union structure there must be pulled down and replaced piece by piece. If the TA passes, welcome to the regional pit of misery! Dilly Dilly!

The size of Air Wis may not be an issue, but this is a completely different NMB and administration than the fairly labor-friendly Obama administration that released Spirit in 2010. It would be reasonable to assume that ALPA national has had a chance to feel out the new administration pretty well by now and they would of course share their impressions with any pilot group in late stage and stagnant negotiations about the likelihood of being released into self-help.

We are not privy to that information, nor are we privy to the negotiating survey results, but the MEC was when they approved the TA. There are significant drawbacks for a FFD pilot group (especially one in AWA's situation) going on strike and it is very possible that the survey results showed that there would not be majority support for labor action. With most pilots just looking to move on to a major as quickly as possible there is not much upside and a ton of potential downside to striking. I'm sure that the MEC spent a great deal of time analyzing and debating this option before approving the TA and if they concluded that it isn't a viable option then they must have good reason to believe so.

Day4mx
06-30-2018, 06:22 AM
Must look at situation outside of bubble, Past, Present, Future. The reality, the big picture. It is what it is regardless of what is wanted. Would the Feds release to strike? (oh you think they would huh?) Is United's master plan a wholly owned model? Does your vote help or hurt your present, your future. Don't vote on emotion, don't vote on the past.

Do you really believe you will get much better based on current industry standards? How long will that take? Of course more is wanted but is that the reality of regional flying today? How does this contract compare with other regionals? The Union signed off on this contract.

TAKE the money or not


This is exactly why i voted yes. Yes the improvements are few and far between. Yes there are also minor drawbacks. But the simple fact of the matter is this company needs a closed book. A no vote gets us nothing. A no vote gets us at least 4 more years of negotiating. At the very least a yes vote gets us a couple bucks. At any rate, cs needs to go as mec chair. His leadership has put us in a deep deep hole and has resulted in a severely weakened union.

Grumbletrousers
06-30-2018, 08:27 AM
This is exactly why i voted yes. Yes the improvements are few and far between. Yes there are also minor drawbacks. But the simple fact of the matter is this company needs a closed book. A no vote gets us nothing. A no vote gets us at least 4 more years of negotiating. At the very least a yes vote gets us a couple bucks. At any rate, cs needs to go as mec chair. His leadership has put us in a deep deep hole and has resulted in a severely weakened union.

I thought the same way up until I saw there were some QOL concessions.

Day4mx
06-30-2018, 02:39 PM
I thought the same way up until I saw there were some QOL concessions.

Youre not wrong, there are minor drawbacks but staffing will be an issue here eternally and the junior man rules in the ta will 1. Signifigantly improve qol and pay in this environment and 2. Hopefully bring the company to their knees in hopes of fixing issues.

CVGair
07-01-2018, 06:31 AM
Looks like another YES voter happy to get a measly bonus. You probably only read the bullet points as well instead of the actual language.

I dont know if you meant to be disingenuous or not, we are better than msnbc or fox news. Please if you wish debate on merit do so but I request that you dont take things out of context nor that you imply your premise is fact.

My opinion is die has been cast, the car was bought and driven off the dealers lot. You cant take it back, Happy No, however voting and emotion must be separated.

BFMthisA10
07-01-2018, 10:24 AM
My opinion is die has been cast, the car was bought and driven off the dealers lot. You cant take it back, Happy No, however voting and emotion must be separated.Meh, I don't know about that. I took that hoopty back, parked it in front of the showroom, and left the keys in the cupholder. A lot of well reasoned arguments, both for and against the TA; but some of you should be writing "Brooks was here" in the aft equipment bay during your walkaround.

StrykerB21
07-01-2018, 03:08 PM
Meh, I don't know about that. I took that hoopty back, parked it in front of the showroom, and left the keys in the cupholder. A lot of well reasoned arguments, both for and against the TA; but some of you should be writing "Brooks was here" in the aft equipment bay during your walkaround.

So was Red.

CVGair
07-01-2018, 03:40 PM
Meh, I don't know about that. I took that hoopty back, parked it in front of the showroom, and left the keys in the cupholder. A lot of well reasoned arguments, both for and against the TA; but some of you should be writing "Brooks was here" in the aft equipment bay during your walkaround.

My apologies I cant comprehend what you are trying to say.

I'll say this for those who think the next step is a strike vote you are mistaken. Please do you own research and not listen to rah rah. (In my opinion the feds will not let a strike occur anyway) I hope everyone understands their own vote and not vote on emotion.

If TA is approved negotiations begin again in 2020, if TA not approved negotiations begin when? All parties must bargain in good faith, the process starts all over again.

Argument by Pro/Con/Fact debate not emotional name calling.

Inside DEENA
07-01-2018, 04:31 PM
My apologies I cant comprehend what you are trying to say.

I'll say this for those who think the next step is a strike vote you are mistaken. Please do you own research and not listen to rah rah. (In my opinion the feds will not let a strike occur anyway) I hope everyone understands their own vote and not vote on emotion.

If TA is approved negotiations begin again in 2020, if TA not approved negotiations begin when? All parties must bargain in good faith, the process starts all over again.

Argument by Pro/Con/Fact debate not emotional name calling.

If this TA is voted down, then negotiations had better start immediately, as frankly ATW needs a better contract than this to both attract and keep people.

If ATW wanted to this whole thing could be wrapped up by the end of the year, but only if the powers wake up and realize that the game has changed, and that they now need to pony up.

ID

CVGair
07-01-2018, 07:26 PM
If this TA is voted down, then negotiations had better start immediately, as frankly ATW needs a better contract than this to both attract and keep people.

If ATW wanted to this whole thing could be wrapped up by the end of the year, but only if the powers wake up and realize that the game has changed, and that they now need to pony up.

ID If your goal is to strike, what path is quicker? Voting for TA or not? Are you sure about that?

Inside DEENA
07-02-2018, 02:59 AM
If your goal is to strike, what path is quicker? Voting for TA or not? Are you sure about that?

Of course nobody wants to strike, that is a ‘weapon’ of last resort.

However, voting NO will bring us back to the table much faster than voting YES, for the reason I stated above.

The company knows that the current situation is unsustainable. If the TA is voted in, they will wait and see if it works for what they need (it won’t, but we will wait and see).

If it is voted down, the company is left with either A: the status quo, which is not working, or B: negotiate something new that will work AND is palatable to the pilot group as a whole.

ID

CVGair
07-02-2018, 03:26 AM
Of course nobody wants to strike, that is a ‘weapon’ of last resort.

However, voting NO will bring us back to the table much faster than voting YES, for the reason I stated above.

The company knows that the current situation is unsustainable. If the TA is voted in, they will wait and see if it works for what they need (it won’t, but we will wait and see).

If it is voted down, the company is left with either A: the status quo, which is not working, or B: negotiate something new that will work AND is palatable to the pilot group as a whole.

ID voting no did not bring parties back to the table last time in an "unsustainable" environment but this time will be different? Can you present your premise? It took over two years last time.

Inside DEENA
07-02-2018, 04:16 AM
voting no did not bring parties back to the table last time in an "unsustainable" environment but this time will be different? Can you present your premise? It took over two years last time.

The staffing situation in 2015 wasn’t nearly as dire as it is now. Potential candidates have frankly better choices now. We have to not just equal them, but be better. This contract fails in that regard, and if ATW doesn’t see that, then frankly we deserve to fail. ATW must know this. That is why. This is in the companies control. They can choose to fail or succeed. The sooner they choose to succeed, the better off we will all be.

ID

Day4mx
07-02-2018, 05:30 AM
It will be several years before we are back at the table. For those saying the company needs it...why dont they give us everything we want now? My guess itll be 3-4 years before we see another ta come across.

Inside DEENA
07-02-2018, 10:20 AM
It will be several years before we are back at the table. For those saying the company needs it...why dont they give us everything we want now? My guess itll be 3-4 years before we see another ta come across.

Because BF thinks this is all that is needed.

3-4 years? If the staffing issues continue like they are (or get worse), we won’t be here as an airline in 3-4 years.

But if you feel like bending over for something substandard, well that’s your choice.

It took roughly a year because we were waiting for our mediator to make time. But there is no requirement to even have a mediator.

ID

CVGair
07-02-2018, 10:54 AM
Because BF thinks this is all that is needed.

3-4 years? If the staffing issues continue like they are (or get worse), we won’t be here as an airline in 3-4 years.

But if you feel like bending over for something substandard, well that’s your choice.

ID

Naivety if you believe cd's (banks) or bf (big farms) have anything to do with it, hypothetical company is run by shrewd ruthless ivy league educated wall street lawyer, the best of the best, a Hypothetical company makes tens of millions a year and then made deal with another company with over 200 million in NOL, so in paper you make zilch, why was hypothetical company changed from corp? Hypothetically of course. If goal was to shut down company, then union should have never agreed to fo bonus, barn door is closed now, voting no just hurts yourself despite rah rah.

Once union made deal to present TA, any "perceived" leverage was gone.

CVGair
07-02-2018, 11:00 AM
It will be several years before we are back at the table. For those saying the company needs it...why dont they give us everything we want now? My guess itll be 3-4 years before we see another ta come across. between two and two and a half is my estimate, just standard bargaining for this industry, that is the time when last TA was rejected.

Inside DEENA
07-02-2018, 11:44 AM
Naivety if you believe cd's (banks) or bf (big farms) have anything to do with it, hypothetical company is run by shrewd ruthless ivy league educated wall street lawyer, the best of the best, a Hypothetical company makes tens of millions a year and then made deal with another company with over 200 million in NOL, so in paper you make zilch, why was hypothetical company changed from corp? Hypothetically of course. If goal was to shut down company, then union should have never agreed to fo bonus, barn door is closed now, voting no just hurts yourself despite rah rah.

Once union made deal to present TA, any "perceived" leverage was gone.

Well, then good luck staffing with either the current CBA or the new TA. Neither will help the retention issue here.

About the only thing in this environment that’ll help is either more money (hourly rates) or a no-interview flow (like AMR). We know UAL isn’t interested in the latter, so.....

ID

pitchtrim
07-02-2018, 01:38 PM
Old ta or new ta, it isn't going to improve anything. Since it's not enough $$ in my pocket, nor improves our situation, I'd feel somewhat dim voting yes. Either way I really don't care at this point. A 1% raise is peanuts to us and peanut dust to them. It would be nice if some of you had nads big enough to put your foot down however.

CVGair
07-02-2018, 04:19 PM
Hypothetically Once the FO newhire bonus's were approved by the union it severed any chance try to shut the company down. Hypothetically The fight would have been lost but it would have been an awesome battle. Voting NO now is just cutting off your nose to spite your face. Hypothetically the opportunity to fight was forfeited with the FO newhire bonus.

Of course this all refers to conjecture of Hypothetical Book Company, that is what is being discussed in fantasy world of fiction. Ideas to publish fiction of nothingness.

StrykerB21
07-03-2018, 08:30 AM
TA rejected.

stroopwaffle
07-03-2018, 08:50 AM
By 3 votes

Grumbletrousers
07-03-2018, 08:54 AM
Back to the table

prex8390
07-03-2018, 09:59 AM
By 3 votes

....really? Lol wow that’s a photo finish

diverdriver2
07-03-2018, 10:44 AM
....really? Lol wow that’s a photo finish

Really. 160-163. Opposed.

87% participation.

WICheeseHead
07-03-2018, 11:03 AM
No kidding? 3 votes? That is insane.

Junkyard Dog
07-03-2018, 11:29 AM
Thats pretty much the reason I voted no. We need new leadership.

Looks like the majority is content to work under a 15 year old concessionary agreement. (sarcasm)
I still can’t believe the MEC and Negotiationing Commitee pushed this so hard. At least I got some free meals out of it

ZenoAir
07-03-2018, 12:31 PM
Hey CvgAir…looks like your push didn't work! Grab your boss and head out to the frontline and fly our shi!!y ass schedules and see if you'all can find some more money and serious improvements for our next TA.
Guess you wont be meeting any hiring goals you promised UA! How are you going to manage this dumpster?

idlethrust
07-03-2018, 05:34 PM
TA rejected.

That’s right
Go stick It ATW we deserve better

dodsqubam
07-06-2018, 01:39 PM
What’s a TA?🧐

Thank you so much for asking that! There's lot of jargon and abbreviations used in these forums. I'm trying to pick a regional, but it's difficult when you don't know all the lingo.

FlyingSlowly
07-12-2018, 07:14 AM
TA rejected.

Congratulations. You guys deserve better.

With the speed of things...If your proposed TA at a regional is not industry-leading IN ALL ASPECTS these days, it deserves a solid "NO" vote.

United needs you guys desperately. Don't believe the management trolls who come on here and say "it'll be years until you get another offer." That's not the way it works these days.

At another regional, the mechanics got a really $hi- offer, voted it down, and had another offer with leading pay (for a regional) a couple months later...

Again, this industry isn't what it used to be.

StrykerB21
07-12-2018, 08:30 AM
Congratulations. You guys deserve better.

With the speed of things...If your proposed TA at a regional is not industry-leading IN ALL ASPECTS these days, it deserves a solid "NO" vote.

United needs you guys desperately. Don't believe the management trolls who come on here and say "it'll be years until you get another offer." That's not the way it works these days.

At another regional, the mechanics got a really $hi- offer, voted it down, and had another offer with leading pay (for a regional) a couple months later...

Again, this industry isn't what it used to be.

What concerns me is the margin. The company sees that it failed by only 3 votes and knows it won't take much to get those few more yes votes.

GeelErmo
07-15-2018, 08:04 AM
Never liked ALPA MEC representation. They just don’t care about AWAC pilot group. I think it’s time to cut them loose. A bunch of corrupt, selfish thugs. Imho.

stroopwaffle
07-16-2018, 11:43 AM
Has anything come out of the Union since this was voted down? No payday hotline either?

Roverruckus
07-16-2018, 12:11 PM
ikr, I wanna see the resignations



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