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Floobs
05-01-2018, 06:54 PM
If you're in dfw they apparently sent out an email to vote on your preference for j/s system. The golden girls over on c&r are also apparently livid at a resolution that either passed or is going to pass and starting a letter writing campaign to their reps.

If you care about keeping the fcfs and haven't let your reps know then now would be a good time to do so.


Saabs
05-01-2018, 08:39 PM
Get heated all you want company doesnít have to change anything regardless of APA

Al Czervik
05-01-2018, 09:00 PM
If you're in dfw they apparently sent out an email to vote on your preference for j/s system. The golden girls over on c&r are also apparently livid at a resolution that either passed or is going to pass and starting a letter writing campaign to their reps.

If you care about keeping the fcfs and haven't let your reps know then now would be a good time to do so.

Whatís the resolution?


Cheddar
05-04-2018, 02:57 AM
Itís a poll about the j/s -
Option 1 - keep it the same as now, options 2/3- hybrid with differing times for seniority v fcfs.

Go vote!


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jcountry
05-04-2018, 05:25 AM
Why donít these old beastards bent on screwing everyone just retire?

Itís not even about seniority. Most of the troublemakers donít even commute.

And I bet ol TW is behind this. A nice way of thanking us for voting his sorry ass out of office.

Name User
05-04-2018, 08:49 AM
I voted FCFS

They've never explained how a hybrid would work.

jcountry
05-04-2018, 10:47 AM
I voted FCFS

They've never explained how a hybrid would work.

The only way it can work:

Youíd have an elite senior segment who could reliably get a Jumpseat several days out. And we all know none of them would cancel that reservation if they made alternate plans.

So in places with lots and lots of jumpseaters (like PIT) youíd have maybe the top 30% who could actually commute. The rest would have to move or drive.

Cheddar
05-05-2018, 03:19 AM
Why donít these old beastards bent on screwing everyone just retire?



Itís not even about seniority. Most of the troublemakers donít even commute.



And I bet ol TW is behind this. A nice way of thanking us for voting his sorry ass out of office.



Iím not sure if you are referring to the poll in DFW or the j/s issue...

RBís first act (afaik) was putting out a poll to his constituency - TW NEVER DID THAT. TW was always the smartest guy in the room, so he didnít need to know what his membership wanted...

I fly with a lot of senior NB Captains doing turns, and all of them like fcfs. Hopefully they will vote.

Go vote, send sound offs.

BTW... 8% voted in CLT for first round VC ballots. DFW had around 50% (if memory serves) in the last round to replace (by an overwhelming vote) TW and to give JW a shot at fixing things. Even the APAthetic LAA guys are getting engaged!!!

8%

Please send sound offs and vote when/if you want things changed.


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Name User
05-05-2018, 07:26 AM
The only way it can work:

Youíd have an elite senior segment who could reliably get a Jumpseat several days out. And we all know none of them would cancel that reservation if they made alternate plans.

So in places with lots and lots of jumpseaters (like PIT) youíd have maybe the top 30% who could actually commute. The rest would have to move or drive.

If what you say is true, and 70% of commuters won't be able to get a js by booking four or more days in advance, a FCFS system won't change that it will just change who can get the js.

Honestly the hybrid isn't that big of a deal BUT no one has ever explained how it would be "awarded". That was my issue with it. It would be such a convoluted mess to implement.

EMBFlyer
05-06-2018, 09:05 AM
Iím not sure if you are referring to the poll in DFW or the j/s issue...

RBís first act (afaik) was putting out a poll to his constituency - TW NEVER DID THAT. TW was always the smartest guy in the room, so he didnít need to know what his membership wanted...

I fly with a lot of senior NB Captains doing turns, and all of them like fcfs. Hopefully they will vote.

Go vote, send sound offs.

BTW... 8% voted in CLT for first round VC ballots. DFW had around 50% (if memory serves) in the last round to replace (by an overwhelming vote) TW and to give JW a shot at fixing things. Even the APAthetic LAA guys are getting engaged!!!

8%

Please send sound offs and vote when/if you want things changed.


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^^^^^This.

This is RB's way of showing he's willing to listen the membership and not give you your opinion.

Sliceback
05-06-2018, 01:10 PM
^^^^^This.

This is RB's way of showing he's willing to listen the membership and not give you your opinion.

He was heavily endorsed by DC. Any effort to rein in DC was weakened by the vote. Strength in one area can come with weakness in another.

EMBFlyer
05-06-2018, 06:37 PM
He was heavily endorsed by DC. Any effort to rein in DC was weakened by the vote. Strength in one area can come with weakness in another.

And tying up everything a certain rep didn't like in Parliamentary Procedure and Robert's Rules got us so far...:rolleyes:

Floobs
05-06-2018, 07:19 PM
Whatís wrong with DC again? Thought everyone wanted him.

Cheddar
05-07-2018, 07:30 AM
DC is a strange cat, and Iím not sure anyone knows his true motives...

He has done some good things, but he has a heavy appearance of impropriety and excess at the expense of the membership (our $$$).

Iím not sure if he is draining the APA swamp, or if heís securing his power base.

I do know that I like what has happened to the NC. We have some awesome people on there that canít be bought by the allure of a cushy management job.


Į\_(ツ)_/Į


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cactusmike
05-07-2018, 09:10 PM
DC is a strange cat, and Iím not sure anyone knows his true motives...

He has done some good things, but he has a heavy appearance of impropriety and excess at the expense of the membership (our $$$).

Iím not sure if he is draining the APA swamp, or if heís securing his power base.

I do know that I like what has happened to the NC. We have some awesome people on there that canít be bought by the allure of a cushy management job.


Į\_(ツ)_/Į


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I think you hit it right on the head. Thereís some seriously flaky stuff going on but Carey did get some good gains outside of section 6.. So heís got that going for him, which is nice....

Al Czervik
05-07-2018, 10:02 PM
I think you hit it right on the head. Thereís some seriously flaky stuff going on but Carey did get some good gains outside of section 6.. So heís got that going for him, which is nice....

What gain was he responsible for?

billyho
05-08-2018, 01:40 AM
What gain was he responsible for?

Exactly. Our gains came at a price.

DarinFred
05-08-2018, 05:16 AM
Well, I got paid 200% for a 3 day trip over Christmas and weíll have Average Calendar Day in a few months. Has you quality of life changed since the agreement was signed wrt scheduling? Mine hasnít

Arado 234
05-08-2018, 05:36 AM
Well, I got paid 200% for a 3 day trip over Christmas and weíll have Average Calendar Day in a few months. Has you quality of life changed since the agreement was signed wrt scheduling? Mine hasnít

What did we give up for Average Calendar Day?

Frip
05-09-2018, 06:50 PM
What did we give up for Average Calendar Day?

Absolutely Nothing

cactusmike
05-09-2018, 06:56 PM
What gain was he responsible for?

Profit sharing, pathetic as it is.

Calendar day rig.

Other stuff Iím too lazy to look up.

He isnít perfect by any measure but he has accomplished something, which seems to be unusual for the APA. And going around the unwieldy BOD has become a necessity since the clowns keep trying to hijack the circus.

Al Czervik
05-10-2018, 02:14 AM
Profit sharing, pathetic as it is.

Calendar day rig.

Other stuff Iím too lazy to look up.

He isnít perfect by any measure but he has accomplished something, which seems to be unusual for the APA. And going around the unwieldy BOD has become a necessity since the clowns keep trying to hijack the circus.

I donít think he had anything to do with the pay hikes or PS. I could give him ACD but that was dropped in his lap with the green trip fiasco.

Clint
05-10-2018, 03:48 AM
What did we give up for Average Calendar Day?
DOTC/RAS (Filling of Open Time): In exchange for LOS credit and Rig improvements, paragraphs 1 and 2, herein, APA agrees that the Company shall have the right to utilize the Companyís Current Process for Filling of Open Time until the programming and implementation of DOTC/RAS is completed. APA hereby releases the Company from any and all claims, damages, or liability related to the ďFilling of Open Time Dispute,Ē including, without limitation, the use of the current process for filling of open time and alleged failure to fully implement DOTC/RAS.

It allows the company to use a poorly written and organized document - that looks like it was composed as a scheduling reference sheet - as official policy for filling open time. Among the changes: the already poor Recovery Obligation rules got worse, reserves now have a 20 minute call-back period, and line-of-sight reassignments are allowed.

aa73
05-10-2018, 04:18 AM
^^^ The company was already using that, and would have continued using it even if the deal had been shot down.

What the ACD agreement actually gives the company is a road map to a DOTC/RAS solution instead of blindlessly continuing on with no fix.

So in the end it was actually a win/win for the pilots... but much of the the membership allowed itself to be brainwashed by more than a few radical BOD members that resorted to falsehoods and crying over their milk when they didn’t get their way.

Not only had we been clamoring for ACD since the JCBA days, but we also had a huge political debt to repay our furloughees with the full LOS. Now we have both, including industry leading duty rigs. And now suddenly ACD is a bad deal?

Say what you want about DC but he has gotten us more good ** outside of Sec 6 ** than the past three APA presidents and then some.

Cheddar
05-10-2018, 06:23 AM
aa73 is correct. This was already in the contract - and if I remember correctly, we actually gave them relief on this for the return of TTOT during the TTS implementation fiasco.

As many have said - including the esteemed ĎAWí - the company will fall on their face again and will need relief concerning DOTC and scheduling. Thatís when we tackle trip ownership, RO relief and other issues - hopefully all BEFORE section 6.

None of this absolves DC of any Ďallegedí financial malfeasance though.


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cactusmike
05-10-2018, 10:37 AM
^^^ The company was already using that, and would have continued using it even if the deal had been shot down.

What the ACD agreement actually gives the company is a road map to a DOTC/RAS solution instead of blindlessly continuing on with no fix.

So in the end it was actually a win/win for the pilots... but much of the the membership allowed itself to be brainwashed by more than a few radical BOD members that resorted to falsehoods and crying over their milk when they didnít get their way.

Not only had we been clamoring for ACD since the JCBA days, but we also had a huge political debt to repay our furloughees with the full LOS. Now we have both, including industry leading duty rigs. And now suddenly ACD is a bad deal?

Say what you want about DC but he has gotten us more good ** outside of Sec 6 ** than the past three APA presidents and then some.

You said it better than I did. Letís focus on going forward. Call out the shenanigans when they happen but donít get distracted. A new industry leading (gasp!)) contract is what we need to achieve.

LIOG41
05-10-2018, 10:48 AM
So when are we suppose to get this ACD implemented? Seems like it's fairly quiet on that front.

jcountry
05-10-2018, 01:11 PM
DC is a strange cat, and Iím not sure anyone knows his true motives...

He has done some good things, but he has a heavy appearance of impropriety and excess at the expense of the membership (our $$$).

Iím not sure if he is draining the APA swamp, or if heís securing his power base.

I do know that I like what has happened to the NC. We have some awesome people on there that canít be bought by the allure of a cushy management job.


Į\_(ツ)_/Į


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He definitely has his eye on some kind of Cush mgmt job.

He is consolidating power. Seen this crap before.

He is firing anyone he can who doesnít drink his bath water.

Sooner we recall this steamin sack of ****, the better.

Just give me THAT ballot!

Adios, MFing liar!

aa73
05-10-2018, 01:30 PM
DC ainít going anywhere, and will most definitely NOT take a management job... if you even knew him, youíd know he donít roll that way.

Other than his screwups with union funds (every president has their screw ups) Iíd venture heís been our most successful APA president so far. Definite has gotten us more than the last several.

Heís also very pro ALPA so maybe heís just exposing all of the APA corruption to help that along, something no other APA president has ever had the balls to do.

jcountry
05-10-2018, 01:49 PM
DC ainít going anywhere, and will most definitely NOT take a management job... if you even knew him, youíd know he donít roll that way.

Other than his screwups with union funds (every president has their screw ups) Iíd venture heís been our most successful APA president so far. Definite has gotten us more than the last several.

Heís also very pro ALPA so maybe heís just exposing all of the APA corruption to help that along, something no other APA president has ever had the balls to do.

So, his attempt to hoodwink us into paying 20k for him and his squeeze to fly to Australia was a Ďscrewup?í

What would happen if any of us attempted to steal even 1/10th of that from the company? (Technically, what he did was not stealing, but there is no universe in which that much money of our dues being spent on such a thing is justifiable.) What should we do to send the message that was wrong? (And 20k is never a Ďscrewup.í Thatís just ridiculous.)

Dan is pro ALPA because he knows what a ****show they are. No better than APA. Heíd probably be able to pilfer even more.

Drain the swamp? Expose corruption? Just look at the increase in his travel budget, phone budget, etc..... Drain my ass.

I voted for him once. I damned sure wonít again.

A330FoodCritic
05-10-2018, 02:59 PM
The company gave us stuff which had nothing to do with DC. It is truly amazing people defend him after the crap he has pulled.

aa73
05-10-2018, 03:38 PM
Keep believing those radical BOD members and the Bs they spout, guys... they’ll happily lead you off a cliff. Truth is, DC ain’t going anywhere and he’s gotten us the biggest gains outside of Sec 6, regardless of what those BOD members brainwash you into believing. He’s accomplished more than the past several APA presidents. Fine by me.

Clint
05-11-2018, 02:07 AM
aa73 is correct. This was already in the contract - and if I remember correctly, we actually gave them relief on this for the return of TTOT during the TTS implementation fiasco
The company may have already been doing it, but not all of the contents of attachment 3 - especially the ones I highlighted - were in the contract. I did a line-by-line analysis of the entire attachment 3 with the 2003 CBA (which governs our reserve filling of open time because RPV is not implemented), the 2015 JCBA, and the PBS MOU.

TTOT and TTS was not part of the AIP

Sliceback
05-11-2018, 08:42 AM
The money he’s spent isn’t a “screwup” if he’s been talked to numerous times about his spending. That’s willful.

Does any school of leadership recommend abuse as the path to success?

Cheddar
05-11-2018, 09:28 AM
The company may have already been doing it, but not all of the contents of attachment 3 - especially the ones I highlighted - were in the contract. I did a line-by-line analysis of the entire attachment 3 with the 2003 CBA (which governs our reserve filling of open time because RPV is not implemented), the 2015 JCBA, and the PBS MOU.

Iíve heard so many stories from so many different sides - including a friend of mine in Contract Compliance... I probably have the details wrong - but as I havenít done a side be side comparison - Iíll take your word for it.


Many things in the AIP WERE in the contract but un-implemented - including electronic notification.


TTOT and TTS was not part of the AIP

That was poorly worded on my part - I think someone earlier was talking about that and we got TTOT back from delaying implementation in part of DOTC/RAS (a win/win). This was after the original implementation of TTS.






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jcountry
05-11-2018, 09:30 AM
The money heís spent isnít a ďscrewupĒ if heís been talked to numerous times about his spending. Thatís willful.

Does any school of leadership recommend abuse as the path to success?

Nope.

And itís not the path to being re-elected.

Only thing that worries me is who we get when we recall him (or fail to re-elect him.)

Cheddar
05-11-2018, 09:32 AM
Nope.



And itís not the path to being re-elected.



Only thing that worries me is who we get when we recall him (or fail to re-elect him.)



Would it go to the VP?


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aa73
05-11-2018, 09:35 AM
Nope.

And it’s not the path to being re-elected.

Only thing that worries me is who we get when we recall him (or fail to re-elect him.)

If DC gets us an ILC along with all the other stuff he’s gotten us, you bet he’ll get re-elected... in a heart beat. I’ll gladly vote for him a second time.

DC has skeletons and screwed up just like everyone else has but he’s getting us GAINS (unlike the past 3.)

mainlineAF
05-11-2018, 09:47 AM
Nope.



And itís not the path to being re-elected.



Only thing that worries me is who we get when we recall him (or fail to re-elect him.)



Youíre starting to sound like the apc version of the admiral lol.

Sliceback
05-11-2018, 10:43 AM
Nope.

And itís not the path to being re-elected.

Only thing that worries me is who we get when we recall him (or fail to re-elect him.)

Recall is almost impossible at APA. It has never happened. If anything wiser heads prevail and the offending party resigns.

Sliceback
05-11-2018, 10:47 AM
If DC gets us an ILC along with all the other stuff he’s gotten us, you bet he’ll get re-elected... in a heart beat. I’ll gladly vote for him a second time.

DC has skeletons and screwed up just like everyone else has but he’s getting us GAINS (unlike the past 3.)

You can’t have years of APA experience, start spending dues money on your family, and call it a screw up or a skeleton.

In government, the military, or business the terms used to describe similar actions are often much harsher and can have a legal consequence attached to them.

aa73
05-11-2018, 11:44 AM
Whatever. They all do it.

Every APA president in the past has had equal or worse screwups. Call it what you want, they’ve all done em. Some got caught, some didn’t. You probably just didn’t know about the ones that didn’t get caught.

DC is simply the latest version, but he gets us RESULTS. For that reason alone he is the best president we’ve had. Plus he’s pro ALPA and not shy about it, which is exactly what we need right now.

I’d much rather have DC with his screwups and an ILC plus gains outside of Sec 6, rather than the last couple of concessionary company milquetoasts that set us back years.

FLPS30GRDWN
05-11-2018, 11:45 AM
Itís funny how we pick and choose happenings, parts of stories, or rumors even to support what weíve already made up in our minds to believe. Or even to attempt to shift others thinking.

We are all guilty of this on some level. Itís human nature.

I question the productivity of debating APA leadership in a public forum.

Seems counterproductive and malicious.

A330FoodCritic
05-11-2018, 04:18 PM
Whatever. They all do it.

Every APA president in the past has had equal or worse screwups. Call it what you want, they’ve all done em. Some got caught, some didn’t. You probably just didn’t know about the ones that didn’t get caught.

DC is simply the latest version, but he gets us RESULTS. For that reason alone he is the best president we’ve had. Plus he’s pro ALPA and not shy about it, which is exactly what we need right now.

I’d much rather have DC with his screwups and an ILC plus gains outside of Sec 6, rather than the last couple of concessionary company milquetoasts that set us back years.

They all do it, that's your reasoning?


Meanwhile, we get to pay for Carey's trip to Israel.

Unbelievable!

Sliceback
05-11-2018, 05:01 PM
Whatever. They all do it.

Every APA president in the past has had equal or worse screwups. Call it what you want, theyíve all done em. Some got caught, some didnít. You probably just didnít know about the ones that didnít get caught.

DC is simply the latest version, but he gets us RESULTS. For that reason alone he is the best president weíve had. Plus heís pro ALPA and not shy about it, which is exactly what we need right now.

Iíd much rather have DC with his screwups and an ILC plus gains outside of Sec 6, rather than the last couple of concessionary company milquetoasts that set us back years.

How about listing the personal cash reward programs, both known and unknown, that the others did?

aa73
05-11-2018, 05:55 PM
Slice, I didn’t say they all screwed up the same way DC did... I just said they all have their versions of screw ups, and I’m sure you’ll find plenty if you go searching. Rich LaVoy and the fine... Wilson and the robocall... Hill and the blood money letter... Etc, etc.

Again, I’m not denying that our current president hasn’t done what he did... and no I don’t condone that behavior at all. I’m just pointing out the gains we’ve gotten under him, which are far more than we’ve gotten with the last presidents... and all outside of Sec 6. Keep it coming, I say. And if we merge back into ALPA under him, all the better.

jcountry
05-12-2018, 02:12 AM
Would it go to the VP?


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Iím not worried about that.

Iím worried about someone like TW getting elected.

That turd needs to never serve in any position again. He seems to have held the philosophy that anyone and everyone not named TW needs to be screwed.

Route66
05-12-2018, 02:46 AM
Slice, I didnít say they all screwed up the same way DC did... I just said they all have their versions of screw ups, and Iím sure youíll find plenty if you go searching. Rich LaVoy and the fine... Wilson and the robocall... Hill and the blood money letter... Etc, etc.

Again, Iím not denying that our current president hasnít done what he did... and no I donít condone that behavior at all. Iím just pointing out the gains weíve gotten under him, which are far more than weíve gotten with the last presidents... and all outside of Sec 6. Keep it coming, I say. And if we merge back into ALPA under him, all the better.

You mean the profit sharing, or the pay raise from last year, or the $1000 bonus? Oh, that was the Company. Or how about the length of service pay out of my money? What a crock. The company gave us the pay raises. The union took MY seniority. The union is nothing but a rip off.

EMBFlyer
05-12-2018, 03:25 AM
You mean the profit sharing, or the pay raise from last year, or the $1000 bonus? Oh, that was the Company. Or how about the length of service pay out of my money? What a crock. The company gave us the pay raises. The union took MY seniority. The union is nothing but a rip off.

Maybe if you wish hard enough, USAPA will come back.

Route66
05-12-2018, 07:19 AM
Maybe if you wish hard enough, USAPA will come back.

Fifty times better than APA.

Sliceback
05-12-2018, 07:53 AM
Slice, I didnít say they all screwed up the same way DC did... I just said they all have their versions of screw ups, and Iím sure youíll find plenty if you go searching. Rich LaVoy and the fine... Wilson and the robocall... Hill and the blood money letter... Etc, etc.

Again, Iím not denying that our current president hasnít done what he did... and no I donít condone that behavior at all. Iím just pointing out the gains weíve gotten under him, which are far more than weíve gotten with the last presidents... and all outside of Sec 6. Keep it coming, I say. And if we merge back into ALPA under him, all the better.

None of those events you mentioned were personally rewarding. That's a huge difference.

The industry today is completely different than it was under the previous presidents. And every group tends to make gains post BK. So how much of the gains have come from outside circumstances vs. some sort of special power inside APA?

jcountry
05-12-2018, 07:59 AM
Fifty times better than APA.

Yep.

Sad as it is to say, that is a fact

JetMonkey
05-12-2018, 11:00 AM
Bull$h!t. Murderes who got away.

cactusmike
05-12-2018, 11:14 PM
Fifty times better than APA.



Oh, no you didnít.

Do not go there. That turd has been flushed.

jcountry
05-12-2018, 11:48 PM
If what you say is true, and 70% of commuters won't be able to get a js by booking four or more days in advance, a FCFS system won't change that it will just change who can get the js.

Honestly the hybrid isn't that big of a deal BUT no one has ever explained how it would be "awarded". That was my issue with it. It would be such a convoluted mess to implement.

The version I was told was that for the first four days, the js would be seniority only. Last three would be fcfs.

The experience would vary widely based on location. PIT would be smooth sailing for a few guys, and hell for anyone else.

Route66
05-13-2018, 04:57 AM
Oh, no you didnít.

Do not go there. That turd has been flushed.

Just keep telling yourself that.