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View Full Version : SWA Doing Interisland Flights


Poopchute701
05-03-2018, 07:57 PM
Reading the news and comments, everyone seems to hate on Hawaiian Airlines and looks like it could potentially end Hawaiianís reign and lead to failure. Does anyone think this is still a good place to go?


Moonwolf
05-03-2018, 08:49 PM
I think our interisland market makes up 25% of our income. Swa will undoubtedly take passengers away, but Hawaiian has a pretty big strangle hold of frequency. Between hnl and ogg I'm told we have more than nyc to dca daily. I doubt swa will come close to the amount of flights we offer. Articles I read mention it won't happen until after mainland routes are established, said perhaps 2020. I just don't think that there's any gate space available anywhere to make a real treat viable.

Rama
05-03-2018, 10:36 PM
Yes, obviously Hawaiian's done. Look elsewhere,


WindWalker999
05-03-2018, 11:45 PM
Yep. Hawaiian is toast. A couple of 737-MAX's (are those ETOPS birds really suited to high-cycle operations?) flying 4 or 6 flights a day is definitely going to run HAL's Interisland operation out of business. And that would surely kill the entire airline; not like they make money doing any other types of flying after all! Interisland is all they do, right? If I remember correctly all those international flights, US mainland flying, and cargo stuff is subcontracted out to Delta, right? That extra 10 or 20 flights a day tagged into the middle of SWA's ETOPS pairings will really kill them! Hell, maybe Alaska can jump in and fly some interisland pairings too! Then it would almost be like sharing the market with Aloha again (or half of them at least)!

Have you considered applying at SWA? When we eventually merge and HAL gets stapled to the bottom of SWA, maybe today's HAL captains can be your FO's!

Definitely don't waste your time applying here!

Makai
05-04-2018, 02:06 AM
The lower half of pilots on the seniority list don't even know what the battle was like between AQ and HA back in the day. They was in diapers or on the mainland.
Southwest could spell bad news if they figure out a way to do more than tag legs. Maybe the 787s going be ordered in blue with the heart or one Eskimo on the tail.

RiddleEagle18
05-04-2018, 05:58 AM
Your orders and aircraft retirements are a bit hard to follow on the APC main page.

What does the final fleet count and makeup look like now with the 787ís?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Albief15
05-04-2018, 11:07 AM
While price always does scream, the Hawaiian product is nice, and the locals are pretty proud of their hometown airline. SWA will probably draw more people to the islands, via the "Southwest effect", but I don't think anyone at HAL is folding the tent.

rockhopper
05-04-2018, 12:22 PM
Reading the news and comments, everyone seems to hate on Hawaiian Airlines and looks like it could potentially end Hawaiianís reign and lead to failure. Does anyone think this is still a good place to go?


Hawaiian is the best place to go if you want to live in Hawaii period. If you want to live on the mainland and have options to go to the big 3 or Fedex UPS I would do that.

sailingfun
05-07-2018, 04:34 AM
I suspect the limited number of flights SWA will offer inter island will mostly be their own connecting passengers. The only issue for HNL will be yields. A small number of flights can disrupt yields and hurt the bottom line.

Varsity
05-11-2018, 10:02 AM
Are you guys serious?

Southwest has more than 700 airplanes and is known for high frequency/short routes.

I could see them absolutely saturating the market to shell shock the incumbents, it's what they do.

av8tor55
05-11-2018, 10:54 AM
Lack of gates, no MX hangar, and a 175 seat ETOPS aircraft doing 40 min block/30 min turns. The barriers to entry are pretty costly.

Interisland is a low margin profit area. The bulk of profits probably come from cargo. The ROI to build a new cargo facility, I would guess, is pretty poor.


Are you guys serious?



Southwest has more than 700 airplanes and is known for high frequency/short routes.



I could see them absolutely saturating the market to shell shock the incumbents, it's what they do.

Moonwolf
05-11-2018, 03:24 PM
Are you guys serious?

Southwest has more than 700 airplanes and is known for high frequency/short routes.

I could see them absolutely saturating the market to shell shock the incumbents, it's what they do.
You're not from Hawaii are you?

Hawaiian 5O
05-11-2018, 05:50 PM
The lower half of pilots on the seniority list don't even know what the battle was like between AQ and HA back in the day. They was in diapers or on the mainland.

No. Many of us were watching our own airlines juggle with bankruptcy threats and pushing off concession threats. Unless you are one of those guys that got hired at HA at the age of 21 in the 80's or 90's, 9/11 screwed ALL OF US. Diapers my @$$. :mad:

Now, if you are one of the more junior guys or gals that got furloughed or bumped out of the left seat once or even twice... While those guys that got hired at HA at the age of 21 in the 80's or 90's picked up gobs of open time, then I feel your pain. We will overcome. Again.

Southwest could spell bad news if they figure out a way to do more than tag legs. Maybe the 787s going be ordered in blue with the heart or one Eskimo on the tail. Hopefully MGT has a plan. I will not vote for ANY concessions regardless of the threat. I know that's been the mantra of the past. This isn't my first airline. I hope it's my retirement place, but if it's not meant to be, I'll move and apply elsewhere. :eek:
SWA... Whatever. With no Aloha or Island Air, there's room. Now, good luck finding gate space. Your new terminal will only take 25 years to get built. :p

kbay hombre
05-11-2018, 09:57 PM
Are you guys serious?

Southwest has more than 700 airplanes and is known for high frequency/short routes.

I could see them absolutely saturating the market to shell shock the incumbents, it's what they do.

+1. I'm no SWA pilot (nor am I a fan) but I'm familiar with their history and business model. SWA's operations in parts of the mainland are predicated on high cycles and quick turns, as fast as HA's interisland. They've been doing this in California and Texas for decades, and doing it well. They will flood the market in Hawaii and they will probably lose money at first (and also experience logistics problems), but they can afford to do this. SWA has done this before, including in Seattle with AS. Whether SWA succeeds or not on the islands isn't going to be determined by how fast they can turn a 737. It'll be more by qualitative factors like hometown loyalty, gate space and HA's reaction.

4thLevel
05-12-2018, 12:29 AM
Aloha HA - I apologize if I'm stepping where I don't belong, but if you don't mind the ramblings of a WN guy, please read on. First, I honestly don't think you guys have anything to worry about. I've been at WN a little over 25 years and feel I know our strengths and weaknesses pretty well. You guys have an amazing product with solid brand identity and loyalty. We have a propensity to enter a new arena acting like we know everything - and won't listen to outside advice or opinions. This strongly works in your favor - especially in a market like HI. Additionally, your product and service exudes aloha, where ours exudes, well, yee-ha. The Big Brains of Dallas have stated we won't enter into inter-island for at least a year after service starts - and even then I suspect it will only be baby steps. Without a dedicated subfleet over there (something I don't see us ever doing), our inter-island will likely be a handful of daily flights between key points. Competition? Sure. But not enough to cause any major loss. Ironically, the folks riding on us inter-island will probably just be the ones we brought over to begin with - extra pax via newly generated traffic.

Herb used to say the new 737's he bought came from Boeing with passengers already in them. My strong suspicion is that will be true for the Hawai'i market as well, and there will be plenty to go around for all of us.

That's just one fool's opinion, from a guy who loves HA and has always been grateful for your hospitality. :)

Hawaiian 5O
05-12-2018, 08:12 AM
Aloha HA - I apologize if I'm stepping where I don't belong, but if you don't mind the ramblings of a WN guy, please read on. First, I honestly don't think you guys have anything to worry about. I've been at WN a little over 25 years and feel I know our strengths and weaknesses pretty well. You guys have an amazing product with solid brand identity and loyalty. We have a propensity to enter a new arena acting like we know everything - and won't listen to outside advice or opinions. This strongly works in your favor - especially in a market like HI. Additionally, your product and service exudes aloha, where ours exudes, well, yee-ha. The Big Brains of Dallas have stated we won't enter into inter-island for at least a year after service starts - and even then I suspect it will only be baby steps. Without a dedicated subfleet over there (something I don't see us ever doing), our inter-island will likely be a handful of daily flights between key points. Competition? Sure. But not enough to cause any major loss. Ironically, the folks riding on us inter-island will probably just be the ones we brought over to begin with - extra pax via newly generated traffic.

Herb used to say the new 737's he bought came from Boeing with passengers already in them. My strong suspicion is that will be true for the Hawai'i market as well, and there will be plenty to go around for all of us.

That's just one fool's opinion, from a guy who loves HA and has always been grateful for your hospitality. :)


Well said. That's one of the best posts I've ever read on this forum. :)

WHACKMASTER
05-12-2018, 09:36 AM
Just a few points of reference from the Companyís mouth:

- 20-30 aircraft dedicated to the HI operation ďeventuallyĒ

- DEN-HI with the 7MAX as that will have the range. Theyíre actually pretty excited about that jet because of its range as it will allow SWA to open up new routes such as the one I just mentioned and also Florida to deep(er) S. America.

There was never any mention made of it but I can see the possibility of them ferrying a few 143 seat -700s over Part 91 to do the inter-island. Iím not assuming per se that inter-island will be done via the -800s or MAX 8s.

Either way I wish us ALL success.

av8tor55
05-12-2018, 02:15 PM
Interesting info, thanks.

The -700 interisland would make more sense. Might be fun for you WN guys to have a mini base in HNL!

Iíve always wondered why AS doesnít do any interisland legs. They have the gates and certainly enough aircraft scattered around the islands. They will probably feel the effects of WN entering the market the most, as they have the greatest number of west coast to Hawaii flights currently.

Just a few points of reference from the Companyís mouth:



- 20-30 aircraft dedicated to the HI operation ďeventuallyĒ



- DEN-HI with the 7MAX as that will have the range. Theyíre actually pretty excited about that jet because of its range as it will allow SWA to open up new routes such as the one I just mentioned and also Florida to deep(er) S. America.



There was never any mention made of it but I can see the possibility of them ferrying a few 143 seat -700s over Part 91 to do the inter-island. Iím not assuming per se that inter-island will be done via the -800s or MAX 8s.



Either way I wish us ALL success.

e6bpilot
05-12-2018, 03:27 PM
Alaska is the main target in this move. WN has been connecting pax to Alaska island flights for a long time. WN has also been in a battle with AK for west coast customers for the last year or so.
Inter island, if it ever comes about, will mainly SWA pax. As was mentioned above, WN doesnít have the aircraft fleet or gates to make it work like Hawaiian. I highly doubt Hawaiian will feel much of an effect at all.
The key to this whole move was Andrew Watterson. Southwest poached him from Hawaiian about 2 years ago and he runs network planning. He knows the ins/outs and strengths/weaknesses of how Hawaiian operates. Hawaiian has the whole enchilada. They have the fleet and the know how and real estate/political connections to bring long haul pax to the islands and shuffle them around. Nobody will be able to mimic that with 737s.

RJSAviator76
05-14-2018, 05:37 AM
My... how quickly people forget. Anyone remember Mesa coming in with 4 50-seat regional jets? The kama'aina were ecstatic that someone was coming in from the mainland to put a hurting on the "big, bad local airlines who were gouging local passengers." Hawaiian happily matched them interisland, even beyond Mesa's capacity, and that match was the "final push" to put Aloha out of business (the third largest employer in the state). Mesa left literally 5 years after Aloha said aloha, and now Hawaiian as the big winner is charging a pretty penny for their fares, charging baggage fees, and has the interisland market all to themselves. Kama'aina loyalty to Hawaiian Air? That's funny. People are only loyal to their bottom dollar if the service is on par... i.e. safe, reliable and on time.

I also wouldn't be so blasť about Southwest coming into the market either... Unlike other start-ups like Mahalo or MidPac or mainland ventures like Mesa's go!, this is a 1000-lbs gorilla that made its name doing quick turns and serving smaller airports coming into the market with the number of aircraft dedicated to the operation exceeding the size of Aloha Airlines at its peak.

Having said that... it'll be interesting to see this whole thing unfold. Personally, I think this is gonna be putting more hurt on Alaska than Hawaiian, at least until interisland spools up, but we'll see.

Poopchute701
05-14-2018, 09:34 AM
It's interesting to see the State of Hawaii bend over backwards for Southwest and other airlines to give them what they want. The airport expansion plan for more gates, where the commuter terminal is, will most likely be used by Southwest. The original airport expansion for that project began over 10 years ago, but the incompetent state leaders never got that done. Starting this month, they will begin to break ground on the new terminal. ANA will start to fly A380s to Honolulu, State of Hawaii plans to or is beginning the project for gates to accommodate that. Hawaiian needs one MX hangar, State fails to accommodate and Hawaiian ends up finishing the project years later. I wouldn't be surprised to see the State of Hawaii give some interisland gates to Southwest, even if Hawaiian gets the required amount of departures to claim the gates. The State of Hawaii is just as big as a threat as Southwest is. Good thing elections are coming up.

RJSAviator76
05-14-2018, 09:59 AM
Donít know if you were around when Mesa was coming in, but the State of Hawaii also bent over backwards for them as well...

Prim40
05-14-2018, 02:02 PM
Jeez,...What does the State of Hawaii have against Hawaiian?

CaptainDooley
05-14-2018, 03:52 PM
read Wings of Paradise,, and replace Aloha Airlines with Southwest, the Inter-island competition is just starting all over again. Just the natural market reaction of flying in HI, there needs to be competition.

https://www.amazon.com/Wings-Paradise-Hawaiis-Incomparable-Airlines/dp/0970159447

Poopchute701
05-14-2018, 04:54 PM
If only Mokulele would've kept the E175s, maybe that would've qualified as "enough" competition.

AltoCumulus
05-19-2018, 04:17 PM
I agree with the other posters about the hurt on AS is the concern, not HA. When Delta setup their hub in SEA, Alaska actually gained market share to the detriment of SWA and United. SWA will crater yields to the islands But that will apply to everybody. What I think you will see if things go as planned with SWA you will see AS pull out of California-Hawaii...which will greatly offset for HA the decreased yields by SWA. I think you will see similar reductions by other airlines.

You might see HA switch itís west coast flying to 321ís and then move the 330ís onto farther routes like Chicago and Dallas or more likely, Asia.

Anyway, I think the more interesting effect will be on the lower tiers. HA might actually benefit overall if SWA pushes out enough of the bit players.

HNL-DEN on a MAX. Maybe. Year round DEN-HNL-with passengers? Not s chance.

Rama
05-19-2018, 04:22 PM
The plan is to do most West Coast flying with the NEO's. Should have about a dozen on property a year from now. The schedule got backed up by the Pratt engine problems.

kingairfun
05-21-2018, 04:03 PM
You might see HA switch itís west coast flying to 321ís and then move the 330ís onto farther routes like Chicago and Dallas or more likely, Asia.





This has been pretty much a certainty since they were announced 5 yrs ago...it would be about the same bet as laying down money on the Patriots winning the AFC East this season. Already a certainty.

Poopchute701
05-21-2018, 05:42 PM
I'm curious to see how the Ohana Cargo ATRs will affect aircraft choices to the West Coast. I don't know how much cargo the A321 can hold, but they will be able to carry the cargo to any island and Ohana can fly the cargo to it's destination. The A321s will add multiple flights to Hawaii, from each west coast city they serve, and be able to spread out the cargo on each flight. As a shipper, I wouldn't be too excited about my cargo taking multiple flights. But to Hawaiian, it might be more beneficial as it frees up A330 time to go new places.

JamesBond
05-23-2018, 08:51 AM
LUV can be beaten back. See ATL.

e6bpilot
05-23-2018, 10:01 AM
ATL is doing just fine. Itís about 50 percent bigger than it was a couple of years ago. SWA didnít initially have the O/E traffic to make ATL work with PTP flying. Now itís a busy station with full loads. I am no SWA fanboy, but ATL is a poor comparison tool.

Beaver Hunter
05-23-2018, 12:26 PM
Name me a airline flying around with less than a 86% load factor. Plenty of folks to go around. SW is not the boogie man.

Kimo
05-26-2018, 01:12 PM
Surprised I haven't seen the south park "they're taking our jobs" meme?

I really don't see southwest making much of an impact.

FlapsOverspeed
05-27-2018, 07:14 AM
Plenty of pax to go around. This is about AS in California and using SWA rewards points to connect to their feed out to the islands.

RJSAviator76
05-27-2018, 07:30 AM
I really don't see southwest making much of an impact.


We never ever do... ;)

Opakapaka
06-02-2018, 12:22 PM
Letís face it. The Hawaii market needs another interisland carrier. HA been gouging the locals for years now. The locals have no allegiance to anyone or anything but Mr Green $$$$$

av8tor55
06-02-2018, 01:20 PM
Letís face it. The Hawaii market needs another interisland carrier. HA been gouging the locals for years now. The locals have no allegiance to anyone or anything but Mr Green $$$$$


Nobody wanted to fly on Island Air, even if they were a little cheaper. People choose schedule over price.

RJSAviator76
06-02-2018, 02:33 PM
Nobody wanted to fly on Island Air, even if they were a little cheaper. People choose schedule over price.



Prop vs. mainline jet....

Moonwolf
06-02-2018, 05:57 PM
Letís face it. The Hawaii market needs another interisland carrier. HA been gouging the locals for years now. The locals have no allegiance to anyone or anything but Mr Green $$$$$

Yes because they are all lining up for mokulele

Beaver Hunter
06-02-2018, 07:25 PM
Yes because they are all lining up for mokulele
Mokulele flies Carvans. No comparison.
What Hawaii needs is a better run Island Air. Just big enough to keep others out and prices reasonable. Who knows. Maybe HA will realize the best competitor they ever had was WP.

Danger Close
06-03-2018, 06:21 AM
They will take market share. That means less of the pie for HAL. Unless they tap addíl revenue stream elsewhere that means less profits for Hawaiian. The blanket ostrich in the sand comments are a little shocking.

Opakapaka
06-06-2018, 11:58 AM
Mokulele flies Carvans. No comparison.
What Hawaii needs is a better run Island Air. Just big enough to keep others out and prices reasonable. Who knows. Maybe HA will realize the best competitor they ever had was WP.
What Beaver says. NO COMPARISON!!!

Poopchute701
06-06-2018, 02:14 PM
May I suggest that Hawaiian create a flow with Skywest Airlines. That way pilots will be able to flow up to Hawaiian and flow back down to Skywest when Southwest takes over. I hear Southwest hires alot of Skywest peeps so the Hawaiian folks that flow down will be able to move back to Hawaii when Southwest creates a base in HNL.

Moonwolf
06-06-2018, 03:23 PM
May I suggest that Hawaiian create a flow with Skywest Airlines. That way pilots will be able to flow up to Hawaiian and flow back down to Skywest when Southwest takes over. I hear Southwest hires alot of Skywest peeps so the Hawaiian folks that flow down will be able to move back to Hawaii when Southwest creates a base in HNL.

People who are think southwest is going to take over Hawaii must not be from Hawaii. Especially for an airline that has yet to even fly here. Time will tell but to say a brash comment about flow up and flow down to Skywest now I know you're smoking to much pakalolo.

Moonwolf
06-06-2018, 03:26 PM
Mokulele flies Carvans. No comparison.
What Hawaii needs is a better run Island Air. Just big enough to keep others out and prices reasonable. Who knows. Maybe HA will realize the best competitor they ever had was WP.
But if it's about money then why wouldn't passengers go with the cheapest? People don't care if they go from ord to lax just to go to dfw. They want cheap

ridinhigh
06-07-2018, 09:54 AM
May I suggest that Hawaiian create a flow with Skywest Airlines. That way pilots will be able to flow up to Hawaiian and flow back down to Skywest when Southwest takes over. I hear Southwest hires alot of Skywest peeps so the Hawaiian folks that flow down will be able to move back to Hawaii when Southwest creates a base in HNL.

ALPA has a preference to hire from ALPA regionals of which Skywest is not.

Poopchute701
06-07-2018, 10:07 AM
ALPA has a preference to hire from ALPA regionals of which Skywest is not.

I wouldnít really suggest that considering HR does most of the hiring nowadays at airlines. I assume Hawaiian would be no different. When ALPA starts representing HR departments, maybe airlines will hire more ALPA people. From what Iíve been told, Skywest pilots have filled many seats in classes over the past couple years.

captjns
06-09-2018, 06:02 AM
ALPA has a preference to hire from ALPA regionals of which Skywest is not.

Post the memo written on official ALPA stationery.

I’ll wager airlines have more to deal with on their plate than tangling with the EEOC.

MrBogardi
06-10-2018, 03:50 AM
May I suggest that Hawaiian create a flow with Skywest Airlines. That way pilots will be able to flow up to Hawaiian and flow back down to Skywest when Southwest takes over. I hear Southwest hires alot of Skywest peeps so the Hawaiian folks that flow down will be able to move back to Hawaii when Southwest creates a base in HNL.

This is really funny. At Compass airlines there was a rumor that there was going to be a flow to Hawaiian. They all had the similar absurd logic to justify and convince people it was real. It will never be a thing, Hawaiian is too small to ever feel a real thirst for applicants.

sailingfun
06-10-2018, 10:51 AM
Post the memo written on official ALPA stationery.

Iíll wager airlines have more to deal with on their plate than tangling with the EEOC.

Delta contract:. The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company's competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company's objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots.

Poopchute701
06-12-2018, 11:29 AM
Delta contract:. The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company's competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company's objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots.

So this is from the Delta contract... Is Delta taking over Hawaiian now? Sorry Hawaii Air National Guard folks, looks like we need to hire 1 year regional FOs because you know, of ALPA. Thank you for your understanding.

captjns
06-12-2018, 03:54 PM
Delta contract:. The Company will fill a minimum of 35% of the aggregate of all positions in Delta pilot new-hire classes in each trailing twelve-month period (to the extent airmen are available) with ALPA-represented airmen at Delta Connection Carriers, subject to such airmen meeting the Company's competitive hiring standards, and subject to the Company's objectives for diversity and experience among newly hired pilots.

I’d like to see the alleged 35% directive on official ALPA stationery. I can’t belive DAL’s legal counsel would allow the company to put itself in harms way.