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B727DRVR
05-04-2018, 07:52 PM
Hey All,

I'm a former freight dog with no true dawg in this fight, other than a few friends who are at ATI, but I do read the Cargo threads all the time and post from time to time.

Because of the EPIC fail of the ATI QOL and More thread below, the ATI Signing Bonus thread, and pretty much every other ATI thread, which have been hijacked by some understandably disappointed fellow ATSG guys, I have started this one to help educate others. I totally get how you guys feel let down by the ATI guys accepting this contract, but no one on here has ever explained in any succinct detail as to WHY ATI and their contract is so bad to prospective applicants. I get it, plan B....: Since they voted in a "bad" contract that doesn't pattern bargain in your favor, then trash it and ATI at every turn so less pilots apply there and thus less competition. It makes sense, but how about some more data and less drama? WHY IS IT SO BAD (or GOOD, or Better ATI guys)? The criticism (or praise) should be backed up with facts

For example:

What is the length of the contract?
What is first year pay, Third year, Fifth, ect?
Hazardous duty pay?
IS there a signing bonus?
What does growth potential look like?
What's the upgrade situation?
Do they have KCM? ID90's? ID anything?
What about CASS? Do they have it?
What is the schedule look like and how is home basing defined? AK? HI?
What are the maximum days that you can be assigned?
Vacation?
How about training? AQP? Probably not, I'm guessing. ACMI carriers are notorious for pink-slip training departments and 36th Street MIA training facilities staffed by post-March 1989 Eastern Airlines hires. ABX had the pink-slip loving Aryan Brotherhood that failed so many that the FAA looked into why. ATI had a reputation as well. I have heard mixed reviews on Atlas, with the B747 side being more problematic than the B767 side.
What about 401k? I'm guessing that there's not much retirement otherwise.
Do they have an ASAP program?
Was there ANYTHING at all positive about this contract?

So if things really are that bad with no improvements (or that good with improvements), how about some data as to why? I'm not saying for you ABX, Atlas, K4, Southern, etc. guys not to chime in, but your critique would be more respected with more facts and less just "ATI and their new contract Blows".. And where are the ATI guys with some info for all the RJ folks considering applying there? If things are bad, do a fellow brother or sister pilot a favor and let them know. The same goes for the good. Let others know!

So how about some facts?


100LL
05-04-2018, 08:33 PM
Not just the cargo guys but I get a kick out of the whiners at any flying job they have. If itís so bad why stay, get out find something else. So then when the company finds itself way understaffed maybe then things will change or theyíll just shut down all together.

airbus300
05-04-2018, 08:34 PM
There are a lot of answers to the above questions. One thing about the whole situation with everyone making it look like we took a pay cut instead of getting a huge raise is that I have been able to get 2 of my friends interviews.....


vroll1800
05-04-2018, 10:53 PM
B727: It looks like ATI profile has been updated, which should answer some of your questions.

As for the rest (Signing Bonus/Retro, Vacations, etc) : If actual ATI posters were not forthright/forthcoming during the period between TA announcement and ratification, what makes you think they'll be forthright/forthcoming now ?

B727DRVR
05-04-2018, 10:58 PM
OK,

That's cool. Maybe you could answer even a few of the above questions? Airbus, I mean.

Industry Strnd
05-05-2018, 04:06 AM
Fact 401k less than all new contracts by about 10%
Fact pay rates less than all new contracts by about 10%
Fact mmg less than all new contracts by a lot and no meaningful rigs or min day.
Fact no ability to trip trade
Fact bids with paper
Fact just got caught fudging flight duty times to make pilots legal
Fact narrow body scope expires unless renegotiated - why would anyone negotiate scope that expires and doesnt even cover current airplanes?
Fact less days off than anyone in acmi or the industry.
Fact it's possible to have vacation days on normal days off.
Fact no real reassignment pay.
Fact Jr mann pay credit less than peer airlines.
Fact mec did not support single carrier filing to end wipsaw.

Opinion- mec doesn't know how much leverage they have and caves to any threat or promise from management or ALPA national.

Opinion - some of the new guys understand but the old guys don't realize even with a new contract they still work more for less money in pay and retirement with no ablity to munipulate their schedule for good qol. Abx pilots are retiring at age 60 millionaires and ATI pilots work till 65 and retire with 1/3 the money.

LRSRanger
05-05-2018, 04:26 AM
This message is hidden because Industry Strnd is on your ignore list.

B727DRVR
05-05-2018, 06:49 AM
Fact 401k less than all new contracts by about 10%
Fact pay rates less than all new contracts by about 10%
Fact mmg less than all new contracts by a lot and no meaningful rigs or min day.
Fact no ability to trip trade
Fact bids with paper
Fact just got caught fudging flight duty times to make pilots legal
Fact narrow body scope expires unless renegotiated - why would anyone negotiate scope that expires and doesnt even cover current airplanes?
Fact less days off than anyone in acmi or the industry.
Fact it's possible to have vacation days on normal days off.
Fact no real reassignment pay.
Fact Jr mann pay credit less than peer airlines.
Fact mec did not support single carrier filing to end wipsaw.

Opinion- mec doesn't know how much leverage they have and caves to any threat or promise from management or ALPA national.

Opinion - some of the new guys understand but the old guys don't realize even with a new contract they still work more for less money in pay and retirement with no ablity to munipulate their schedule for good qol. Abx pilots are retiring at age 60 millionaires and ATI pilots work till 65 and retire with 1/3 the money.

OK Strnd,

Thanks... That's a real good start as to why you feel that the contract is so bad..

727CA
05-05-2018, 06:59 AM
Fact it's possible to have vacation days on normal days off.


Vacations are not on your days off. Every year the company puts out a vacation bid, and it's awarded by seniority. The awards are out by the first part of the year.
If you know your vacation is scheduled for the first two weeks of June, then you bid to work the first two weeks of June. You'll get a month off.
Yes it's possible to have vacation days on normal days off, but that would be your own fault.

Jurassic Jet
05-05-2018, 07:01 AM
Yes it's possible to have vacation days on normal days off, but that would be your own fault.

Or, you are not senior enough to make them conflict and you fall victim to your crappy contract.

727CA
05-05-2018, 07:06 AM
Or, you are not senior enough to make them conflict and you fall victim to your crappy contract.

True, but there's a lot of Reserve lines that everybody bids last, it's pretty easy to get which half of the month you want.
By the time you're senior enough to get two weeks of vacation, you'll be senior enough to definitely hold whichever side of the month you want.

Kougarok
05-05-2018, 08:28 AM
True, but there's a lot of Reserve lines that everybody bids last, it's pretty easy to get which half of the month you want.
By the time you're senior enough to get two weeks of vacation, you'll be senior enough to definitely hold whichever side of the month you want.

When do you get start getting two weeks? Douche tag by the way.

nitefr8dog
05-05-2018, 01:45 PM
What you are hiring into at ATI is a corporate culture that believes they are worth less than their fellow pilots. They have been told this by JV and they believe it! We heard many times that the senior crew members did not want single carrier because of the tough training at ABX. Lets not forget JV convinced the 12 yr+ crewmembers to agree to a 3% pay raise to not negotiate a new contract until they could capture more Amazon flying. So basically the junior crewmembers paid for the additional flying in the form of no pay raise/b scale. After ATSG made possibly the worst business decision in Airborne's history to buy ATI/Capitol...and BAX folded ATI/Capitol were worth nothing. Flying old clapped out DC8s and 727s nobody wanted ATSG refleeted the combined airlines with revenue from its profitable airline ABX. Why?? Because ATI employed pilots that could not get hired elsewhere and would work for scab wages. ATI's response was to cross our picket line being the only major US based carrier to cross. Then signed a horible contract only looking at a dinky pay raise when everything was available as a combined pilot group. So to answer your question...yes. A new hire at ATI would be working at a company that has made bad decisions and incompetence a requirement.

Littlebird
05-05-2018, 02:39 PM
What you are hiring into at ATI is a corporate culture that believes they are worth less than their fellow pilots. They have been told this by JV and they believe it! We heard many times that the senior crew members did not want single carrier because of the tough training at ABX. Lets not forget JV convinced the 12 yr+ crewmembers to agree to a 3% pay raise to not negotiate a new contract until they could capture more Amazon flying. So basically the junior crewmembers paid for the additional flying in the form of no pay raise/b scale. After ATSG made possibly the worst business decision in Airborne's history to buy ATI/Capitol...and BAX folded ATI/Capitol were worth nothing. Flying old clapped out DC8s and 727s nobody wanted ATSG refleeted the combined airlines with revenue from its profitable airline ABX. Why?? Because ATI employed pilots that could not get hired elsewhere and would work for scab wages. ATI's response was to cross our picket line being the only major US based carrier to cross. Then signed a horible contract only looking at a dinky pay raise when everything was available as a combined pilot group. So to answer your question...yes. A new hire at ATI would be working at a company that has made bad decisions and incompetence a requirement.
Capital Holdings and CAM, you know the leasing company that makes all the money and where a good majority of aircraft will be coming from in the future, was sold to ATSG when they formed the new holding group. ATI had all the Lucrative DOD runs. Without CAM ATSG would not exist silly boy. Do you fly CAM owned aircraft? Well do you grumpy boy?

nitefr8dog
05-05-2018, 04:22 PM
Capital Holdings and CAM, you know the leasing company that makes all the money and where a good majority of aircraft will be coming from in the future, was sold to ATSG when they formed the new holding group. ATI had all the Lucrative DOD runs. Without CAM ATSG would not exist silly boy. Do you fly CAM owned aircraft? Well do you grumpy boy?
Actually no.....ABX aircraft were transferred to CAM without being purchased ( no money was paid to ABX ) which are still considered ABX assets by the PBGC....which could use the aircraft for pension liabilities. Unlike ATI which has no assets now do they grumpy boy? Also the only aircraft CAM had that were not smashed into beer cans after ATSG purchased CAM were ABX 767s. Everything else was nothing but junk...grumpy boy!

midnightshuttle
05-05-2018, 04:28 PM
True, but there's a lot of Reserve lines that everybody bids last, it's pretty easy to get which half of the month you want.
By the time you're senior enough to get two weeks of vacation, you'll be senior enough to definitely hold whichever side of the month you want.


Ive been here a few years and can say thats UTTER horse $&R^

Not long ago I few with a senior captain out of PHX that lost his vacation and he was 20+yrs. He ended up calling in sick.


NEXT

Go get another Crapital buddy and maybe a true blue legacy or two... and come up with another post.

Go show your bag tag to the Amazon reps in ILN next time your in for training. 2nd floor take the stairs up by where scheduling was.

atpcliff
05-05-2018, 04:34 PM
Or, you are not senior enough to make them conflict and you fall victim to your crappy contract.

This is how it used to be at Atlas. Then, we signed an LOA so if you want your vacation AND your days off, you automatically get both, regardless of your seniority. Also, if you have less than 4 days between your vacation days, and your work days, you automatically get those days off in addition.

If you have two weeks off in a month, you can get the whole month off, if you want that, regardless of the length of the month/days off/vacation days, etc. Some pilots have worked their schedule to get two months in a row off, including two months off over the summer.

nitefr8dog
05-05-2018, 04:38 PM
I am sure it's comforting knowing at anytime..ATI aircraft could be transferred to ABX but the same cannot be said for ABX aircraft. That...would have been something nice to have in a new contract. Just saying if you guys were thinking about scope language...ooops wait a minute that ship has sailed.

Littlebird
05-05-2018, 04:53 PM
I am sure it's comforting knowing at anytime..ATI aircraft could be transferred to ABX but the same cannot be said for ABX aircraft. That...would have been something nice to have in a new contract. Just saying if you guys were thinking about scope language...ooops wait a minute that ship has sailed.

Yes, a lot of ships have sailed. Enjoy your grumpiness! Haha

B727DRVR
05-05-2018, 08:32 PM
Some good info... We're starting to get a little thread drift here once again, but good info all the same.

Still no one has addressed the schedule, KCM, Training, etc.:confused: And how many posting are actually ATI? Just wondering....

Industry Strnd
05-06-2018, 08:39 AM
Some good info... We're starting to get a little thread drift here once again, but good info all the same.

Still no one has addressed the schedule, KCM, Training, etc.:confused: And how many posting are actually ATI? Just wondering....

On e if your posts you say you have a "few friends at ATI" if so why are you on here asking for facts? It's obvious you're management or ALPA trying anything to find anything that covers up a horrible airline trying it's best to get anyone to apply.

nitefr8dog
05-06-2018, 09:36 AM
Some good info... We're starting to get a little thread drift here once again, but good info all the same.

Still no one has addressed the schedule, KCM, Training, etc.:confused: And how many posting are actually ATI? Just wondering....
Thread Drift is good....keeps things lively. After all this is a discussion forum...we are not curing cancer or trying to solve world hunger.

B727DRVR
05-06-2018, 03:40 PM
On e if your posts you say you have a "few friends at ATI" if so why are you on here asking for facts? It's obvious you're management or ALPA trying anything to find anything that covers up a horrible airline trying it's best to get anyone to apply.

Or maybe I donít want to hurt their feelings (all 2 of them) by asking how bad things are for their career, and get an outside opinion from others. And also, because the previous threads were trashed by others saying only ATI and their pilots suck, without explaining why. A simple search of my posts will reveal that I am obviously not a management apologist, and actually a cancer survivor that has been out of flying for 3 years and out of 121 cargo since 10/2007.

That doesnít mean that I donít want to keep track of whatís going on.

OverGMcGee
05-06-2018, 04:44 PM
Midnight, L8frt, Astar, myself are ATI

I feel this is a good place to be. Movement starting all over the list. This week a fairly senior capt resigned and went to Fedex. I know others are waiting on UPS. Lots of FO's are hitting Major/Legacy etc.

Dont Bash me on this PLZ

The contract here was front loaded with no retirement. They wanted a revolving door to keep cost down. Training cost are irrelevant cuz they use sub contractors and sim time probably isn't that hi.


This is a great time to be in aviation everyone is benefiting and if you dont want to stay in ACMI you dont have to.

nitefr8dog
05-07-2018, 01:06 PM
Or maybe I donít want to hurt their feelings (all 2 of them) by asking how bad things are for their career, and get an outside opinion from others. And also, because the previous threads were trashed by others saying only ATI and their pilots suck, without explaining why. A simple search of my posts will reveal that I am obviously not a management apologist, and actually a cancer survivor that has been out of flying for 3 years and out of 121 cargo since 10/2007.

That doesnít mean that I donít want to keep track of whatís going on.
Congrats on a tough battle......stay away from ACMI.

B727DRVR
05-10-2018, 06:10 AM
Congrats on a tough battle......stay away from ACMI.

LOL, don't worry... Slowly getting back Medicals and easing back into flying, it's coffee, ice, and papers for me.. along with flying the occasional group of skydivers.

You guys keep storming the ACMI beaches to make things better for all pilots!

Fly safe and thanks....

midnightshuttle
05-10-2018, 06:27 AM
Midnight, L8frt, Astar, myself are ATI

This week a fairly senior capt resigned and went to Fedex. I know others are waiting on UPS. Lots of FO's are hitting Major/Legacy etc.



Some junior caps recently did Delta interviews. Several senior guys are in line at Brown. Others doing that commuter outfit in the 73ís. FedEx is tough. The few that made it will do well there and might open the door for others. They wont give up on the bachelors as a minimum though.

B727DRVR
05-12-2018, 01:07 PM
Hey,

This was some pretty good info on ATI.. About a third of the questions I asked, but a good start.

Since it's mainly ABX pilots posting on here anyway, how about we start a similar thread for ABX with the many questions not answered on the profiles..?

The hopelessness threads answer a lot of questions about stagnation, upgrade potential, shrinking fleet, contentious pilot/management relations, but never any of the ones that I posted for prospective ATI pilots. You know..., the same ones I posted for ATI. Like.. KCM? ID 90's or ID anythings? Training pay, per diem, and accommodations? Etc?

How about training? ABX has a historically tough reputation with regard to training and high failure rates? Some say that they prided themselves on that.. Is the Aryan Brotherhood still alive and well there in the training department or have they moved on? I believe that I had asked that once before, but don't recall much of a response. AQP? Any retirement beyond 401K? Questions like that.

I mean, to be fair, you guys should put out ALL the information, not just the awful information, to let these ABX, and ATI, aspirants know what they are getting themselves into.. Just my opinion, of course..:cool:

tiredofjrm
05-12-2018, 01:44 PM
Full salary from Day one. But no housing or per diem. You have to pay for your own place during training. Friends of mine elsewhere were getting training pay but a hotel and per diem. They made our way better.

No CASS till your finished. So if you wanna go home during training, be ready to pay for a ticket.

Training was fair. About the same as other airlines. The Aryan race must have left.

No ID nothing.

No chance of upward movement. We just lost more flying (SJO). This is a shrinking airline.

The retirement ended in 2009. Only 7.5% 401K contributions.

Do not come here!!! Learn from my mistake.

B727DRVR
05-12-2018, 02:11 PM
Full salary from Day one. But no housing or per diem. You have to pay for your own place during training. Friends of mine elsewhere were getting training pay but a hotel and per diem. They made our way better.

No CASS till your finished. So if you wanna go home during training, be ready to pay for a ticket.

Training was fair. About the same as other airlines. The Aryan race must have left.

No ID nothing.

No chance of upward movement. We just lost more flying (SJO). This is a shrinking airline.

The retirement ended in 2009. Only 7.5% 401K contributions.

Do not come here!!! Learn from my mistake.

Hey,

Thanks for your candor and for your informative post.

That helps answer the mundane questions that most pilots want to know.

Thanks again and I hope things get better for you guys, and the rest of the ACMI.