Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




View Full Version : Sam Pool Email


AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 08:24 AM
Did anyone get the other email he talks about regarding the actual agreement? Pretty curious to what it states.


pitchattitude
05-08-2018, 08:29 AM
Did anyone get the other email he talks about regarding the actual agreement? Pretty curious to what it states.

I was wondering the same.

Smutter
05-08-2018, 08:31 AM
Nope. Just his, sounds like he is selling something that stinks


AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 08:35 AM
Nope. Just his, sounds like he is selling something that stinks

Yeah I kinda felt like to was a prepare for bad news email.

Smutter
05-08-2018, 08:42 AM
29 a month for protected pilots, can be up to 50%. (If AA and envoy agree!!!)

Street capts

Start Capt pay day awarded Capt, no longer after fed ride

Protected pilots will never see another dime from envoy, we will keep the crap we have till we flow

Give out the remaining flying after attot closes. To guys within a certain range of 1000

moon
05-08-2018, 08:46 AM
29 a month for protected pilots, can be up to 50%. (If AA and envoy agree!!!)

Street capts

Start Capt pay day awarded Capt, no longer after fed ride

Protected pilots will never see another dime from envoy, we will keep the crap we have till we flow

Captain pay is big. 29? What a weird number to pick.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 08:47 AM
Wow, so as a non-protected pilot, I just gave away the farm for an extra 3 months of captain pay when I upgrade and 4 months less time to flow? Why keep the bad language in the flow agreement for the rest of the pilot group if itís already a known problem? Feels like the perfect bandaid for the companyís short term problem, and short term solution for the pilot groupís long term problem. I consider myself to be one on the pilots that is slightly disappointed with this.

DanRoman
05-08-2018, 08:51 AM
How many of the Union guys that negotiated this deal are protected pilots?

RawHide
05-08-2018, 08:54 AM
The negotiating chairman is a post protected pilot.

EmbaeDriver
05-08-2018, 08:56 AM
Haha and no more FOs hiding on RSV, damn.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 08:57 AM
As a 600 hr FO, I feel like Iím giving up the most only to gain the least. The protected pilots get more flow by giving up nothing. None of the concessions will affect a protected pilot. Good for them I guess but not at the expense of everyone who is junior.

MD-11Loader
05-08-2018, 08:59 AM
Burn it down.

They can now force you as a reserve pilot with over 800 hours to fly by displacing a lineholder. The union completely sold the first officers out on this. Not surprising. The agreement will move SPís flow up a month.

ENH017
05-08-2018, 09:00 AM
In an effort to secure more flow slots for our oft overlooked Protected Pilots and help mitigate delays getting our First Officers into the left seat, the First Officer Advancement Program will allow the company to take reserve FOs with 800-949.99 hours at the end of the ATTOT window and add available flying onto the FO's scheduled reserve days.

Will allow the company to assign flying to reserve FOs? I'm assuming this is for new hires with prior 121 looking to upgrade ASAP? Any senior FOs who are on reserve are on there for the exact opposite reason, delaying that upgrade. I guess 800 is the new number to avoid. Although if this is what we're getting instead of CA pay increases and general reserve improvements I guess there's no longer a reason to delay the upgrade then, is there?

Smutter
05-08-2018, 09:04 AM
As a 600 hr FO, I feel like Iím giving up the most only to gain the least. The protected pilots get more flow by giving up nothing. None of the concessions will affect a protected pilot. Good for them I guess but not at the expense of everyone who is junior.

We gave up a **** ton to still be here, even though I voted no

Bassman1985
05-08-2018, 09:04 AM
As a CA upgrade currently in training, I just got a pay raise and a flow date several months sooner (post-DOS hire). Also, since I now will get 20 extra hours of IOE, Iíll be spending less time in MIA after training before I assume DCE status in July, and will be able to hold DCL that much sooner and spend less time on reserve when I get there. This amounts to zero negatives for me, since I thought the lesser of 25 or 50% a month was the case already.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 09:09 AM
In our conversations with many FOs who sit at the cusp of their 1000 hours, the overwhelming consensus was that they wanted to get their flight time and upgrade as soon as possible.

This is BS. Any FO with 800hrs 121 at envoy can be off of reserve if they want unless they are prior 121. This means that all FOs who are choosing to be on reserve who arenít prior 121, are probably doing it to avoid flying. Saying the ďoverwhelming consensusĒ is saying that all those FOs choosing to be on reserve really want to get flight time as quick as possible. Really?

Smutter
05-08-2018, 09:13 AM
This is BS. Any FO with 800hrs 121 at envoy can be off of reserve if they want unless they are prior 121. This means that all FOs who are choosing to be on reserve who arenít prior 121, are probably doing it to avoid flying. Saying the ďoverwhelming consensusĒ is saying that all those FOs choosing to be on reserve really want to get flight time as quick as possible. Really?

I thought the same thing, every fo I fly with on rsv, can hold a line, but don't want to for obvious reasons

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 09:20 AM
Burn it down.

They can now force you as a reserve pilot with over 800 hours to fly by displacing a lineholder. The union completely sold the first officers out on this. Not surprising. The agreement will move SPís flow up a month.

Wait were you wanting to burn it down when as a NH you got a 20k bonus plus base salary increases when The protected pilots got hardly anything. Your increase in compensation was 20x more than the protected pilots.

I have been saying this continually that at Envoy we have winners and losers. It sucks that this time you drew the short straw.

SilentLurker
05-08-2018, 09:20 AM
Burn it down.



They can now force you as a reserve pilot with over 800 hours to fly by displacing a lineholder. The union completely sold the first officers out on this. Not surprising. The agreement will move SPís flow up a month.



Honestly folks.... they paid their dues to save this company. Lost CA wages, lost flying and flow, lost VACATION, this is nothing! Compared to what they endured to keep this company afloat and where it is today.


So Iím not whining. I have a lot to be grateful for. LONG-TERM thinking.

dothisbeasa
05-08-2018, 09:21 AM
I thought the same thing, every fo I fly with on rsv, can hold a line, but don't want to for obvious reasons

Maybe instead of screwing the majority of the pilot group over for 4 more flow slots they could have said no, give some QOL and a pay raise and then theyíred be a long line out the door to be here, and they could up the flow organically.

SilentLurker
05-08-2018, 09:29 AM
This is BS. Any FO with 800hrs 121 at envoy can be off of reserve if they want unless they are prior 121. This means that all FOs who are choosing to be on reserve who arenít prior 121, are probably doing it to avoid flying. Saying the ďoverwhelming consensusĒ is saying that all those FOs choosing to be on reserve really want to get flight time as quick as possible. Really?



Few online forum bantering (few compared to overall large FOs on property).

MD-11Loader
05-08-2018, 09:30 AM
Wait were you wanting to burn it down when as a NH you got a 20k bonus plus base salary increases when The protected pilots got hardly anything. Your increase in compensation was 20x more than the protected pilots.

I have been saying this continually that at Envoy we have winners and losers. It sucks that this time you drew the short straw.

I want to be a captain, but on my terms. There are positives in this agreement, but they still donít outweigh the fact that I am being forced to upgrade and go back to reserve before I want to. While I respect the sacrifices of those of you who stuck it out through the bad times, I am concerned with my QOL, and a mandatory upgrade drastically reduces that QOL.

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 09:32 AM
I m a 600 hourish FO that likes the new rules regarding fo flying. I dont bid reserve but i do value paid time with my family more than speeding to 1000 hours.

The one question i dont see answered, if i m displaced under this provision, can i pick up ot at premium on those days?

Regarding the flow settlement... Feel like we could have gotten more but i m not losing sleep over it. Still not expecting to wait arround for flow.

NoValueAviator
05-08-2018, 09:35 AM
Aw yes, displace me per LOA daddy.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 09:36 AM
The one question i dont see answered, if i m displaced under this provision, can i pick up ot at premium on those days?


Why would you expect to be displaced if you have less than 1000hrs? Wouldnít that defeat the purpose?

wiz5422
05-08-2018, 09:37 AM
As a 600 hr FO, I feel like Iím giving up the most only to gain the least. The protected pilots get more flow by giving up nothing. None of the concessions will affect a protected pilot. Good for them I guess but not at the expense of everyone who is junior.


You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 2 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.

Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA.

copycopy
05-08-2018, 09:37 AM
Iím kind of surprised by the pilots beyond the protected pilots that seem to think theyíre not benefiting from the increase in flow to the protected pilots. In fact, those who benefit most from this increase are the last class of protected pilots and everybody junior to them as the increase in flow through compounds with time. I think everybody after the protected pilots just moved forward 3-4 months, not sure exactly.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 09:37 AM
Once again the folks who arenít affected will reap the benefits

SkylineAviation
05-08-2018, 09:37 AM
I want to be a captain, but on my terms. There are positives in this agreement, but they still donít outweigh the fact that I am being forced to upgrade and go back to reserve before I want to. While I respect the sacrifices of those of you who stuck it out through the bad times, I am concerned with my QOL, and a mandatory upgrade drastically reduces that QOL.

Lotís of ďIĒ in that statement.

You guys now get ca Pay day 1 not 3-4 months later. Flow 4ish months sooner. More hotels & A12 passes if new to LGA based. 25 extra hours IOE. And youíre complaing because you canít personslly sit rsv longer due to not wanting to upgrade right away?

The rest of us sat years on reserve, saw minimum 4 base closures and flow disruptions continually. Letís not even talk about pay as Pedro stated

pitchattitude
05-08-2018, 09:39 AM
This is BS. Any FO with 800hrs 121 at envoy can be off of reserve if they want unless they are prior 121. This means that all FOs who are choosing to be on reserve who arenít prior 121, are probably doing it to avoid flying. Saying the ďoverwhelming consensusĒ is saying that all those FOs choosing to be on reserve really want to get flight time as quick as possible. Really?
This is really not going to help the company get more TOTAL captain eligible FOs sooner. It will force a few hold outs sooner. But if they are going to DISPLACE other FOs from flying, then it will delay those FOs by the same number of hours.

This is also taking away OT from those who want it and are trying to build time.

If the ďoverwhelming consensusĒ of FOs on the cusp was wanting to get more flight time, you wouldnít have people on the cusp bidding reserve. You also wouldnít have to displace those who just became eligible. Do they really think so or expect anyone to believe this?

NoValueAviator
05-08-2018, 09:43 AM
They're going to displace FO's that only recently got awarded a line, not ones with 750 hours for others with 800 hours.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 09:47 AM
You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 2 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.

Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA.

Isnít adding bonuses for new hires different than forcing concessions on the bottom of the seniority list in order to benefit the top of the list? If the protected pilots had to take a pay cut in order to subsidize the new hire bonuses then Iíll buy that argument. Honestly, all they had to do was negotiate better flow for the ďwholeĒ pilot group and I would have been happy to be forced to upgrade.

GCPhoenix
05-08-2018, 09:53 AM
Congrats, we gave up all of our leverage for maybe 2-3 months faster flow.

ENH017
05-08-2018, 09:55 AM
Here's some info from the email for those outside looking in

https://i.imgur.com/Mc9AIx6.png

https://i.imgur.com/gtc8nWX.png

https://i.imgur.com/tQaYCrA.png

Tellheritwasntu
05-08-2018, 10:03 AM
Hereís a question. Letís say Iím awarded a CA slot on the next vacancy and I start getting captain pay. Do I still receive fo retention bonuses if it takes me anothe 3 months to complete training?

Bigpimppilot
05-08-2018, 10:05 AM
So now itís ďup to the companyĒ and not contractual to send 50%

wiz5422
05-08-2018, 10:14 AM
So previously if AA hired 40 a month we flowed 25

Now if AA hire 40 a month we flow 20?

Am I reading that correctly.

wiz5422
05-08-2018, 10:16 AM
Isnít adding bonuses for new hires different than forcing concessions on the bottom of the seniority list in order to benefit the top of the list? If the protected pilots had to take a pay cut in order to subsidize the new hire bonuses then Iíll buy that argument. Honestly, all they had to do was negotiate better flow for the ďwholeĒ pilot group and I would have been happy to be forced to upgrade.

We did take a pay cut. Remember the bankruptcy contract and them missing away 1000 of pilots and then had to find a way to get new hires here. The concessions we took paid for the bonues.

SkylineAviation
05-08-2018, 10:17 AM
So previously if AA hired 40 a month we flowed 25

Now if AA hire 40 a month we flow 20?

Am I reading that correctly.

No, theyíd flow 29. Not to mention the remedy

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 10:19 AM
No, theyíd flow 29. Not to mention the remedy

Protected pilots yes, the rest no.

In addition, am I reading that they will allow FOís to bid for upgrade at 950 hours now? I only say that because of the wording stating they will displace pilots to get FOís from 800-949. I was under the impression we could even bid for upgrade until 1000 hours. Of course I could be just misreading that part.

BohicaAlpa
05-08-2018, 10:36 AM
As a 600 hr FO, I feel like Iím giving up the most only to gain the least. The protected pilots get more flow by giving up nothing. None of the concessions will affect a protected pilot. Good for them I guess but not at the expense of everyone who is junior.

I have zero sympathy for new hires who have been coddled from day one.

This agreement is a POS for those that have been here and paid there dues over and over.

MD-11Loader
05-08-2018, 10:37 AM
Yes, you can now bid at 950 hours because f/o's will be given 50 hours if IOE thus taking them over 1000 for the fed ride.

Protected pilots yes, the rest no.

In addition, am I reading that they will allow FOís to bid for upgrade at 950 hours now? I only say that because of the wording stating they will displace pilots to get FOís from 800-949. I was under the impression we could even bid for upgrade until 1000 hours. Of course I could be just misreading that part.

Inop2
05-08-2018, 10:53 AM
Havenít read it yet but heard the flow drops to 125/year after protected pilots? 10 a month average . If so.... there goes any meaningful flow at Envoy particularly if youíre an older pilot. Flow went up in smoke as a lot of guys said it would. It was just fairy dust.

Tellheritwasntu
05-08-2018, 11:00 AM
There is a long line out the door.....

Maybe instead of screwing the majority of the pilot group over for 4 more flow slots they could have said no, give some QOL and a pay raise and then theyíred be a long line out the door to be here, and they could up the flow organically.

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 11:01 AM
True the flow drops to 125 a year after protected pilots? 10 a month average . If true there goes any meaningful flow.

Unless AA hires a lot more yes, at least how I am reading it. Basically just took the flow right out of the equation and virtually guarantees A lot will be going to their competition.

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 11:04 AM
There is a long line out the door.....

For now there may be but with the flow being virtually gutted for everyone but the 500 protected pilots, I feel this will change.

bigtime209
05-08-2018, 11:11 AM
Havenít read it yet but heard the flow drops to 125/year after protected pilots? 10 a month average . If so.... there goes any meaningful flow at Envoy particularly if youíre an older pilot. Flow went up in smoke as a lot of guys said it would. It was just fairy dust.

No. It goes to 15/month for the pre-DOS. Then post-DOS it's the lesser of 25% of the total new hires at AA for the entire year, or the equation that's based on the size of our seniority list. Based on our current size, it boils down to the lesser of 25% or 20ish a month. The 25% figure will more than likely be the limiting factor which would break down to about 18/month depending if AA can hit their new hire class number goals.

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 11:17 AM
No. It goes to 15/month for the pre-DOS. Then post-DOS it's the lesser of 25% of the total new hires at AA for the entire year, or the equation that's based on the size of our seniority list. Based on our current size, it boils down to the lesser of 25% or 20ish a month. The 25% figure will more than likely be the limiting factor which would break down to about 18/month depending if AA can hit their new hire class number goals.
So even still, vastly diminished the value of the flow, especially for thosnthat over 35.

havick206
05-08-2018, 11:21 AM
Havenít read it yet but heard the flow drops to 125/year after protected pilots? 10 a month average . If so.... there goes any meaningful flow at Envoy particularly if youíre an older pilot. Flow went up in smoke as a lot of guys said it would. It was just fairy dust.

I see the brains trust is put in full force today.

Where are you guys reading that anything changes for non PPís? All this loa does is settle the grievance for the group currently flowing which currently has a grievance pertaining to them.

Once all the PPís have flowed and the company violates that agreement then anothe grievance will be filed.

Iím a non PP and while the LOA isnít perfect it does fix more things than not.

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 11:30 AM
I see the brains trust is put in full force today.

Where are you guys reading that anything changes for non PPís? All this loa does is settle the grievance for the group currently flowing which currently has a grievance pertaining to them.

Once all the PPís have flowed and the company violates that agreement then anothe grievance will be filed.

Iím a non PP and while the LOA isnít perfect it does fix more things than not.

I'd like to have seen the rest of the pilots group at a 20 per person minimum or a straight 1/125 ratio at a minimum.

havick206
05-08-2018, 11:44 AM
I'd like to have seen the rest of the pilots group at a 20 per person minimum or a straight 1/125 ratio at a minimum.

There was no grievance in for the rest. When the time comes cross that bridge then unless the company negotiates in good faith in advance of non pp flowing of their own fruition.

wiz5422
05-08-2018, 11:45 AM
So even still, vastly diminished the value of the flow, especially for thosnthat over 35.

The flow hasn't changed for all other groups. It is the same as it was when you signed on the dotted line.

bigtime209
05-08-2018, 11:48 AM
So even still, vastly diminished the value of the flow, especially for thosnthat over 35.

It's the same language that was there when you signed the employment paperwork. I'm not really understanding why everyone is acting like this part changed for the worse. Would getting increased flow for every group have been great? Of course. But I don't get why guys are acting like the post PP language has somehow changed.

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 11:49 AM
The flow hasn't changed for all other groups. It is the same as it was when you signed on the dotted line.
I guess I am coming from a different angle. While I understand it hasnít changed, thatís kind of the point I am making. I just felt we were in a great spot negotiating wise and it would have been nice to firm everything up and improve the flow for everyone. Thatís all I am trying to say. I personally know people that were on the fence about coming here because the flow was kind of wishy washy and this doesnít do anything for that.

Sure we can griev again, but really, we are just pushing the problem down the road. I am very happy however for the PPís and wish it could have come sooner for them. Congratulations.

The rest of the changes have pros and cons all around so I am pretty neutral to them.

Cyio
05-08-2018, 11:53 AM
It's the same language that was there when you signed the employment paperwork. I'm not really understanding why everyone is acting like this part changed for the worse. Would getting increased flow for every group have been great? Of course. But I don't get why guys are acting like the post PP language has somehow changed.
I think people were just expecting flow relief for all. Perhaps we just need to wait and griev it later when there will be a violation.

Pat2389
05-08-2018, 11:54 AM
Any idea why someone going to 145 LGA CA training in 10 days would be withheld from training due to staffing, and returned to their status of 175 FO DFW?

Here I was thinking we needed CAs, especially in LGA. And I bid for it specifically lol. I donít get it.

Cyio
05-08-2018, 11:55 AM
I guess I am coming from a different angle. While I understand it hasnít changed, thatís kind of the point I am making. I just felt we were in a great spot negotiating wise and it would have been nice to firm everything up and improve the flow for everyone. Thatís all I am trying to say. I personally know people that were on the fence about coming here because the flow was kind of wishy washy and this doesnít do anything for that.

Sure we can griev again, but really, we are just pushing the problem down the road. I am very happy however for the PPís and wish it could have come sooner for them. Congratulations.

The rest of the changes have pros and cons all around so I am pretty neutral to them.

Pretty happy about the 950 hours to bid for an upgrade. That shaved off a month before more money.

Cyio
05-08-2018, 11:56 AM
Any idea why someone going to 145 LGA CA training in 10 days would be withheld from training due to staffing, and returned to their status of 175 FO DFW?

Here I was thinking we needed CAs, especially in LGA. And I bid for it specifically lol. I donít get it.
Maybe they donít want to pay you the captain rate yet lol.

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 12:08 PM
There was no grievance in for the rest. When the time comes cross that bridge then unless the company negotiates in good faith in advance of non pp flowing of their own fruition.

I know we just gave up a lot to get 4 extra flows.

I'm ok settling the grievance before the arbitration but we gave up some stuff to get the settlement.

Aviatrx
05-08-2018, 12:08 PM
I think this was mostly a good settlement. Too bad there are no reparations to those who were affected and have flowed or are flowing short term. I think THAT is one area that could have been better negotiated. I want my 3 months of wide body Captain pay back!

goldenbear1
05-08-2018, 12:10 PM
I am a first officer that just started reserve at LGA. Does anyone know when the unlimited commuter hotels are effective? In addition, it also states that they are effective until a base transfer or 3 months whichever occurs first. Does that base transfer mean that you were awarded a base or actually moving to another base?

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 12:56 PM
I am a first officer that just started reserve at LGA. Does anyone know when the unlimited commuter hotels are effective? In addition, it also states that they are effective until a base transfer or 3 months whichever occurs first. Does that base transfer mean that you were awarded a base or actually moving to another base?

Woah!!!! Didn't read all that info. A12 passes and unlimited commuter hotels. Lol. Alright. After reading that then I'd say it's a pretty fair deal all around. Granted it's not going to completely make up for everything but for forced upgrades but I think it puts us closer to getting past the forced upgrades.

AZPilotMike
05-08-2018, 01:06 PM
Woah!!!! Didn't read all that info. A12 passes and unlimited commuter hotels. Lol. Alright. After reading that then I'd say it's a pretty fair deal all around. Granted it's not going to completely make up for everything but for forced upgrades but I think it puts us closer to getting past the forced upgrades.
Yeah I have gone back and read the additional info as well and it really is a pretty fair deal. While I would have loved to lock in higher flow numbers for the non protected pilots the rest is pretty solid.

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 01:06 PM
Woah!!!! Didn't read all that info. A12 passes and unlimited commuter hotels. Lol. Alright. After reading that then I'd say it's a pretty fair deal all around. Granted it's not going to completely make up for everything but for forced upgrades but I think it puts us closer to getting past the forced upgrades.

Yeah, it’s basically home based TDY for the first three months of those based in LGA. I like it but think it should last all the way until someone is able to bit out of it if it was due to a forced upgrade.

Side note, with unlimited commuter hotels and A12 travel from anywhere in the lower 48, I don’t know why more commuters don’t just bid for home based TDY when it’s offered... seniority in the TDY base usually yields a better schedule ta’boot.

By the way, for those that have not done home based TDY, A12 is not ‘possitive space’. Basically gaurantees you’re ahead of all D1s. When I did home based TDY, there were times I could get a confirmed seat ahead of time with A12, but usually no, even if the travel planner showed availability... so lower than an A3.

flysooner9
05-08-2018, 01:35 PM
Should be A1ís and last until you leave LGA not just 3 months.

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 01:38 PM
Should be A1ís and last until you leave LGA not just 3 months.

And Endeavor pay rates with an AA seniority number.

I think it can always be a bit better but 99.9% of the time an A3/a12 is just as good as an a1. And I agree it should be until they are able to bid out of LGA.

havick206
05-08-2018, 01:44 PM
Should be A1ís and last until you leave LGA not just 3 months.

Arenít you going to PDT?

havick206
05-08-2018, 01:45 PM
Any idea why someone going to 145 LGA CA training in 10 days would be withheld from training due to staffing, and returned to their status of 175 FO DFW?

Here I was thinking we needed CAs, especially in LGA. And I bid for it specifically lol. I donít get it.

I got the same message same situation except Iím 145 FO. My HI10 hasnít changed though so who knows whatís going on.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 01:52 PM
If the argument is that this was to settle the grievances for only the protected pilots, then why did my QOL get traded away? If I give something away I should get something back in this climate.
My point is, we finally had leverage and now itís gone for more benefit to the company than the pilots. The only reason the company came to the negotiating table is because they believed that that pilots had areasonable argument as to the flow violations. Upper hand pilots. Secondly, the company is in desperate need of capatains regardless, upper hand pilots. Here are the pros. 1) The protected pilots get anywhere from 0 to 3.5 months less time to flow. 2) HVAs and get 3 months of home based tdy if they get put in New York along with the 45k (non HVAs should be able to bid to other bases if they want so this hardly affects them) 3) Captain upgrades get 3 months pay at captain rates (hardly a pro since the company is saving that much plus more not paying out retention bonuses)
Cons: 1) forced upgrades now require 50 less hours. 2) must be a captain to flow. 3) FOs who try to avoid flying by bidding reserve are forced to fly out of seniority order which is a fundamental change in the whole idea of why one bids reserve. 4) the protected pilots who have already flowed to AA and were violated get nothing. 5) the company now has an increased ability to attract HVAs which zaps any leverage the pilot group may have had to negotiate for increased captain pay (which hurts the lifers who have gained nothing by this LOA)
For those saying this was a fair deal I sincerely doubt that in the long term. Like getting 3 months of increased pay and QOL instead of 8 years of higher wages.

AcesHigh
05-08-2018, 02:05 PM
Where in the fineprint did it say must be a Captain to flow?

Cyio
05-08-2018, 02:10 PM
Where in the fineprint did it say must be a Captain to flow?

Starting January of 2019. Itís there.

FlyPurdue
05-08-2018, 02:14 PM
Just a point of clarification:

A12s are confirmed, providing ĎEí inventory is available when you make the booking. When I worked at HDQ, A12 was how we travled for work, and even if they were paying oversales, you were not off loaded. The trick is picking flights that say Ďbookí vs Ďlistí in the NRTP (sometimes e space does become available after you lost, and it will automatically confirm you 2-7 days before departure). Once you Ďbookí, even if you are not immediately assigned a seat, take your PNR to AA.com, and then choose a seat. At that point check in as normal at ~24 hours and it is essentially confirmed. Now not all flights will have ĎE spaceí as it is inventory controlled, but at 7 days out, many of hub-to-hub flights still should. I know that this is still not perfect as our schedules are more dynamic than an HDQ employee, but still a good start!

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 02:26 PM
Just a point of clarification:

A12s are confirmed, providing ĎEí inventory is available when you make the booking. When I worked at HDQ, A12 was how we travled for work, and even if they were paying oversales, you were not off loaded. The trick is picking flights that say Ďbookí vs Ďlistí in the NRTP (sometimes e space does become available after you lost, and it will automatically confirm you 2-7 days before departure). Once you Ďbookí, even if you are not immediately assigned a seat, take your PNR to AA.com, and then choose a seat. At that point check in as normal at ~24 hours and it is essentially confirmed. Now not all flights will have ĎE spaceí as it is inventory controlled, but at 7 days out, many of hub-to-hub flights still should. I know that this is still not perfect as our schedules are more dynamic than an HDQ employee, but still a good start!

This is more academic question since Iím not doing TDY anymore but for anyone else trying to do A12, sounds like you can help.

For me, I was told to book A12 myself via FOS by using HIGO but using A12 instead of A1D or A3D. Only way I knew to look up flights was via Travel Planner. Would find the flights I wanted and go to FOS and book them via HIGO but with A12 at the end. I would then go back to the Travel Planner and import the trip giving my a PNR. Then go to AA.com to try to get a seat. Sometimes I could get a seat right away, usually not. Sometimes Iíd check in at 24 hours and Iíd already been assigned a seat, usually not. Usually, Iíd show up at the gate and wait as a standby, high on the list, but a standby.

I know nothing of this NRTP and ďbookĒ vs ďlistĒ or ďE inventoryĒ. These are new terms to me.

flysooner9
05-08-2018, 02:41 PM
Arenít you going to PDT?

Probably although I have an offer from Envoy as well.

FlyPurdue
05-08-2018, 02:45 PM
In the travel planner, there is a box that says Ďtype of travel,í. This is where you can use your ATW Tickets, or just a basic standby listing. When I worked at AA, this was where you selected Ďbusiness travelí and that is how you booked your A12s for business. It was the subsequent screens that then said book vs list. I just looked myself, and that functionality was removed from my travel planner. Amazing, trusted with passengers, but not trusted to not take advantage of A12s, even though they audit it pretty closely.

Everything else you said was spot on, and you described getting E-space verses business standby.

What I am going to do, is email the travel desk to see if we can get that functionality turned on, or atleast a way to see weather or not e-space is available on a flight.

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 02:53 PM
In the travel planner, there is a box that says ‘type of travel,’. This is where you can use your ATW Tickets, or just a basic standby listing. When I worked at AA, this was where you selected ‘business travel’ and that is how you booked your A12s for business. It was the subsequent screens that then said book vs list. I just looked myself, and that functionality was removed from my travel planner. Amazing, trusted with passengers, but not trusted to not take advantage of A12s, even though they audit it pretty closely.

Everything else you said was spot on, and you described getting E-space verses business standby.

What I am going to do, is email the travel desk to see if we can get that functionality turned on, or atleast a way to see weather or not e-space is available on a flight.

Yeah, just went to Travel Planner and looked, no business travel option there. I’m guessing this the functionality what you’re looking to turn on is. If so, that would have been GREAT!!! It solves the biggest inconvienience I had with it... bigger than the standby which was only an issue once for me. No matter what, it’s a two leg commute to NY for me. Making the reservation via FOS meant two seperate PNRs which is a headache in all kinds of ways.

Edit: I do remember that when I imported the trips to Travel Planner that they were shown as ‘Business Travel’ though.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 02:54 PM
Donít be blinded by the so-called benefits of this LOA. The captain pay starting at the award date, the tdy benefits are not for the pilots, they are for the company. They help attract HVAs which keeps Envoy from having to increase captain pay. Secondly and I forgot this on my earlier rant, but the union seems to think that the benefit to the pilot group is when a sub 1000 hr FO is forced to fly on reserve, that we are going to be sitting at home with pay on a bean bag chair eating Cheetos...but they are only going to displace FOs with more than 1000 hrs, and how many of those do we have? None! The trips will come from open time, aka no OT for you. Benefits the company but the union wants us to think itís great for us somehow. Man Iím dying over here.

Cpt Rex Kramer
05-08-2018, 03:01 PM
^^^ This - And your prior post ^^^

Once again our own union F's us - I'm not sure which is worse the company or the union. I guess the union since I HAVE to pay THEM for the privilege...

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 03:04 PM
Donít be blinded by the so-called benefits of this LOA. The captain pay starting at the award date, the tdy benefits are not for the pilots, they are for the company. They help attract HVAs which keeps Envoy from having to increase captain pay. Secondly and I forgot this on my earlier rant, but the union seems to think that the benefit to the pilot group is when a sub 1000 hr FO is forced to fly on reserve, that we are going to be sitting at home with pay on a bean bag chair eating Cheetos...but they are only going to displace FOs with more than 1000 hrs, and how many of those do we have? None! The trips will come from open time, aka no OT for you. Benefits the company but the union wants us to think itís great for us somehow. Man Iím dying over here.

Email also said the displacements will happen before ATTOT opens and those displaced are not subject to reasignment. There really hasnít been much available at ATTOT for a while.

OT after that will still be fair game for those that want it. Still curious to find out if those displaced will be able to pick up OT on the days they were displaced AND whether itís premium or not.

bigtime209
05-08-2018, 03:08 PM
Email also said the displacements will happen before ATTOT opens and those displaced are not subject to reasignment. There really hasnít been much available at ATTOT for a while.

OT after that will still be fair game for those that want it. Still curious to find out if those displaced will be able to pick up OT on the days they were displaced AND whether itís premium or not.

Yes, a displaced FO can pick up OT on the days they were displaced at the applicable OT premium- 150 or 200 percent. Or they can enjoy the paid time off. Their choice.

wiz5422
05-08-2018, 03:26 PM
Email also said the displacements will happen before ATTOT opens and those displaced are not subject to reasignment. There really hasnít been much available at ATTOT for a while.

OT after that will still be fair game for those that want it. Still curious to find out if those displaced will be able to pick up OT on the days they were displaced AND whether itís premium or not.

It says AFTER ATTOT window.

Dekal5
05-08-2018, 03:34 PM
If the argument is that this was to settle the grievances for only the protected pilots, then why did my QOL get traded away? If I give something away I should get something back in this climate.
My point is, we finally had leverage and now itís gone for more benefit to the company than the pilots. The only reason the company came to the negotiating table is because they believed that that pilots had areasonable argument as to the flow violations. Upper hand pilots. Secondly, the company is in desperate need of capatains regardless, upper hand pilots. Here are the pros. 1) The protected pilots get anywhere from 0 to 3.5 months less time to flow. 2) HVAs and get 3 months of home based tdy if they get put in New York along with the 45k (non HVAs should be able to bid to other bases if they want so this hardly affects them) 3) Captain upgrades get 3 months pay at captain rates (hardly a pro since the company is saving that much plus more not paying out retention bonuses)
Cons: 1) forced upgrades now require 50 less hours. 2) must be a captain to flow. 3) FOs who try to avoid flying by bidding reserve are forced to fly out of seniority order which is a fundamental change in the whole idea of why one bids reserve. 4) the protected pilots who have already flowed to AA and were violated get nothing. 5) the company now has an increased ability to attract HVAs which zaps any leverage the pilot group may have had to negotiate for increased captain pay (which hurts the lifers who have gained nothing by this LOA)
For those saying this was a fair deal I sincerely doubt that in the long term. Like getting 3 months of increased pay and QOL instead of 8 years of higher wages.

Agreed. I think we did not get a fair shake. We have been waiting for so long for the union to do something but it seems like the company got exactly what they wanted and what did we really get in return? Apart from putting the protected pilot flow back on track, we did not get a something that benefits the pilot group as a whole. Iím glad LGA pilots are getting some help for the first 3 months which improves their QOL but thatís about it. Pay? It is great that now pilots get CA pay as soon as they are awarded a CA bid but that is money the company was going to pay regardless in retention bonuses. The union screwed FOís, which have the RIGHT to sit on rsv to fly less, in order please the company and their staffing needs. I remember during the crew room visits how the union were supposedly against forced upgrades but here they are facilitating things for the company once again while throwing FOís on rsv under the bus. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but a fair deal in this pilot climate? If you are a pilot and think that you got a W with these LOAís, well good for youÖ but have you guys seen what the other leading regionals are doing? Sam when do you flow again? :confused:

Cpt Rex Kramer
05-08-2018, 03:45 PM
Sam when do you flow again? :confused:

Not soon enough that self dealing ass

highfarfast
05-08-2018, 03:51 PM
It says AFTER ATTOT window.

Had to go back and look. I stand corrected. Still reads like they canít keep doing it throughout the month. I get more OT during the month than during the window. In fact, I can never get OT during the window.

mketch11
05-08-2018, 04:18 PM
Agreed. I think we did not get a fair shake. We have been waiting for so long for the union to do something but it seems like the company got exactly what they wanted and what did we really get in return? Apart from putting the protected pilot flow back on track, we did not get a something that benefits the pilot group as a whole. Iím glad LGA pilots are getting some help for the first 3 months which improves their QOL but thatís about it. Pay? It is great that now pilots get CA pay as soon as they are awarded a CA bid but that is money the company was going to pay regardless in retention bonuses. The union screwed FOís, which have the RIGHT to sit on rsv to fly less, in order please the company and their staffing needs. I remember during the crew room visits how the union were supposedly against forced upgrades but here they are facilitating things for the company once again while throwing FOís on rsv under the bus. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but a fair deal in this pilot climate? If you are a pilot and think that you got a W with these LOAís, well good for youÖ but have you guys seen what the other leading regionals are doing? Sam when do you flow again? :confused:
I may be way off base here, but it feels like these LOAs benefit (second to the company) those with one foot out of the door to AA, which I assume are a large portion on the folks who came up with this deal.

ytumama
05-08-2018, 04:37 PM
So when does all this start? Do we have to vote on it?

Inop2
05-08-2018, 04:46 PM
I see the brains trust is put in full force today.

Screw you havick. I was getting the info 2nd hand and made that pretty clear. A little busy today making dreams come true for 76 people at a time.

For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PP’s being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I won’t miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school.

Delete delete

Inop2
05-08-2018, 04:50 PM
I see the brains trust is put in full force today.

Screw you havick. I was getting the info 2nd hand and made that pretty clear. A little busy today making dreams come true.

For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PP’s being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I won’t miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school.

2 engine taxi, APU on.

Inop2
05-08-2018, 04:53 PM
So when does all this start? Do we have to vote on it?

Done deal. No vote on this.

Inop2
05-08-2018, 04:55 PM
I may be way off base here, but it feels like these LOAs benefit (second to the company) those with one foot out of the door to AA, which I assume are a large portion on the folks who came up with this deal.

Agree....carrots for guys flowing within 12 months and sticks for the rest.

ytumama
05-08-2018, 04:59 PM
Done deal. No vote on this.

OK, so if selected on the last bid you start getting paid CA pay now? Or is it only for the new vacancy bids?

Bassman1985
05-08-2018, 05:09 PM
OK, so if selected on the last bid you start getting paid CA pay now? Or is it only for the new vacancy bids?

Good question as I am currently in upgrade training and since IOE is now 50 hours, if I still have to wait for that CA raise, Iíll be ready to picket our reps.

SkylineAviation
05-08-2018, 05:11 PM
Screw you havick. I was getting the info 2nd hand and made that pretty clear. A little busy today making dreams come true.

For their benefit and guys lower on seniority, I look forward to the PPís being gone. They worked for it and deserve the flow in the coming months but it has been a divisive tool inserted in the seniority list. While the PP and others bash the NH for getting cash and wages and sounding indignant, I wonít miss the stories of walking 6 miles in the snow to get to school.

2 engine taxi, APU on.

Devisive tool? It wasnít a gift we were given cause they like us, clearly you havenít been around long. And no one blames you for getting the money, long over due in the industry but you want to talk about the oneís who got vs the oneís who didnít...look no farther. Little humility could go a long way rather than dismissing us ďindignants.Ē

mdot
05-08-2018, 05:12 PM
You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 2 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.

Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA.

Thank you. This is the post to end this thread.

bigtime209
05-08-2018, 05:30 PM
You received your sign on bonus at the expense of everyone senior to you....most of the remainder of the protected pilots have been screwed over by the company for the past 6.5 years while all the new hires have cashed in with big bonuses, short reserve time and quick upgrades. Be thankful you didn't have to start out at $27 an hour, 3 years reserve, 8 year upgrade, and multiple base closures and displacements.

Now you get to upgrade and make CA pay day 1, and flow faster to AA.

Fixed it for ya

ENH017
05-08-2018, 05:31 PM
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.

SkylineAviation
05-08-2018, 05:38 PM
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.

Lol! Assuming the position like how we voted no under the threat of Comair II. Or voiced our opinion and asked the union to pull the reserve loa just last year. Or how about the reps, many of which are protected pilots thatís scored those retention bonuses & upgrade bonuses that you got. Those guys your talking about? Oh, most of which are the ďold guardĒ who ďassumed the positionĒ

mdot
05-08-2018, 05:40 PM
I'm sure management loves seeing the Old Guard telling new hires to assume the position like they did for years instead of pushing for meaningful improvements.

Push all you want. I support it. Really. But new hires are light years ahead of the "Old Guard". And they don't even understand or realize it.

mdot
05-08-2018, 05:44 PM
Lol! Assuming the position like how we voted no under the threat of Comair II. Or voiced our opinion and asked the union to pull the reserve loa just last year. Or how about the reps, many of which are protected pilots thatís scored those retention bonuses & upgrade bonuses that you got. Those guys your talking about? Oh, most of which are the ďold guardĒ who ďassumed the positionĒ

It's sort of like a bell curve. The red circled pilots got to keep their compensation. The new hires get bonuses all day long. Plus immediate upgrade. The PPs got screwed to start out with. Concessionary contract, vacation stolen. And now finally we get something positive (that happens to benefit EVERYONE on property) and people are *****ing. It's not surprising obviously, but it's unfortunate.

SkylineAviation
05-08-2018, 05:46 PM
It's sort of like a bell curve. The red circled pilots got to keep their compensation. The new hires get bonuses all day long. Plus immediate upgrade. The PPs got screwed to start out with. Concessionary contract, vacation stolen. And now finally we get something positive (that happens to benefit EVERYONE on property) and people are *****ing. It's not surprising obviously, but it's unfortunate.

Bingo. Completely agree

mketch11
05-08-2018, 06:00 PM
It's sort of like a bell curve. The red circled pilots got to keep their compensation. The new hires get bonuses all day long. Plus immediate upgrade. The PPs got screwed to start out with. Concessionary contract, vacation stolen. And now finally we get something positive (that happens to benefit EVERYONE on property) and people are *****ing. It's not surprising obviously, but it's unfortunate.

How does it benefit the lifers?
And just because itís positive doesnít make it right. Like we are supposed to be happy about getting crumbs when we could have had a whole meal? Maybe this group is just too accustomed to being shat on that anything positive must be praised regardless of what is given up in the long term.

Cyio
05-08-2018, 06:02 PM
Thank you. This is the post to end this thread.

Iím not taking sides but letís be honest. The bonuses were voted in because it was the only thing that would bring pilots to Envoy thus directly benefiting the pilots that voted yes, which we can see play out right now. Please donít act like approving bonus payouts was a completely benevolent act.

With that said I am happy for the PPís.

NoValueAviator
05-08-2018, 06:10 PM
I'm relieved to see negotiations concluded for now without slowing the flow for other than protected pilots. Nothing here is going to get more people in the door either, which will shrink classes once the RTP and cadet pipelines clear out, and provide more leverage when the literally thousands of '16-'17 hires want to upgrade and need FOs to fly with.

KodiakRS
05-08-2018, 06:15 PM
I'm voting no.




Oh wait.....never mind.

Pedro4President
05-08-2018, 06:30 PM
How does it benefit the lifers?
And just because itís positive doesnít make it right. Like we are supposed to be happy about getting crumbs when we could have had a whole meal? Maybe this group is just too accustomed to being shat on that anything positive must be praised regardless of what is given up in the long term.

Let's be honest here. You are really upset about giving up the perceived notion of leverage. You wanted what we all still want. I think you are a bit misguided in thinking we were in a position to negotiate higher pay rates. We have FOs in a hiring pool.

The only thing that ****es me off about this loa is the forced flying of higher time FOs to push them to a 1000 hours. This was a direct attack on them and their QOL. I'm shocked by that aspect of the loa.

Jetunderwing
05-08-2018, 06:39 PM
With being here 2 years and seeing double the seniority behind me, it is interesting the Protected Pilots are getting so much at the expense of over half the pilots on the roster. I realize a lot of the MEC is about to flow and about time to clear the cobwebs but with well over half the list here less than 2 years i dont want to hear about the protected pilots 8 years on reserve or any other violins they wanna play. I want pay and qol, irregardless of them and the contract they all voted in thats a complete joke.

havick206
05-08-2018, 06:48 PM
I hope everyone realizes this was at least some gains for what would have been a self correcting situation when the wave of 2016 FOís got their CA mins in 3-6 months.

RomeoBravo
05-08-2018, 08:00 PM
Wait were you wanting to burn it down when as a NH you got a 20k bonus plus base salary increases when The protected pilots got hardly anything. Your increase in compensation was 20x more than the protected pilots.



I have been saying this continually that at Envoy we have winners and losers. It sucks that this time you drew the short straw.



Totally agree with this view point of yours Pedro4President.

Iím not a PP but to me, they deserve any gains they can get given the beatings they took. Think of the guys that voted NO and essentially got ran over by their peers.

NH (within the last two years) shouldnít even be whining about these improvements announced today. Again, there will be winners and losers, there will likely not be a time when everybody wins (unless youíre living that suburban life where everyone gets a medal).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
05-08-2018, 08:07 PM
Maybe instead of screwing the majority of the pilot group over for 4 more flow slots they could have said no, give some QOL and a pay raise and then theyíred be a long line out the door to be here, and they could up the flow organically.



People, please be realistic. Firstly, the company had no compelling reason to come to the table. This could have gone to arbitration and well 18 months later we would have seen some minuscule gain. In the company eyes, thereís no real problem other than, a CA shortage. Attrition is not a true issue despite what people may allege on these forums, people are staying here and the company knows that. Until thereís no longer a line of people begging for an interview here, we likely wonít see the changes in pay youíre advocating for. An improvement in flow furthers the companyís narrative for recruiting -FLOW-


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

RomeoBravo
05-08-2018, 08:12 PM
I m a 600 hourish FO that likes the new rules regarding fo flying. I dont bid reserve but i do value paid time with my family more than speeding to 1000 hours.



The one question i dont see answered, if i m displaced under this provision, can i pick up ot at premium on those days?



Regarding the flow settlement... Feel like we could have gotten more but i m not losing sleep over it. Still not expecting to wait arround for flow.



Yes. The new LOA will allow the pick up of OT when being displaced for the reason of First Officer Advancement Program. You also cannot be reassigned therefore, you can sit at home on your behind and do nothing during the displacement period all while being payed as if you worked the trip.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

SVCS
05-08-2018, 08:25 PM
I think we have to understand something here about the new LOA's...
This was not a negotiation looking for better flow, pay,reserve or qol. We had two grievances in place, one regarding flow violation for the protected pilots and another for contract violation regarding the DEC...
In regards to the flow, if you are not a PP then this grievance was not meant to help you in any way so, any improvement that you may have gotten with this then if I were you I would take it as a win. The Union had to give something small that only affects a few for a small period of time in order to help 580 pilots. The company needed more captains and this was the solution the union came up with, im sorry for the guys with 800+hrs, you knew it was just a matter of time your number came up!!!
In regards to the DEC, if you are a captain already or you are not near the upgrade requirement then this grivence was not meant for you. It doesn't affect you or help you in any way.
If I were you guys I would take it for what this is, its a settlement between the company and the union to drop the grivances. its not and should not be seen as an attempt of a contract improvement, that's why we dont get to vote! Hopefully that will come by the end of the year...

pitchattitude
05-08-2018, 08:33 PM
People, please be realistic. Firstly, the company had no compelling reason to come to the table. This could have gone to arbitration and well 18 months later we would have seen some minuscule gain. In the company eyes, thereís no real problem other than, a CA shortage. Attrition is not a true issue despite what people may allege on these forums, people are staying here and the company knows that. Until thereís no longer a line of people begging for an interview here, we likely wonít see the changes in pay youíre advocating for. An improvement in flow furthers the companyís narrative for recruiting -FLOW-


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I donít know, maybe it is just me, but a shortage of Captains sounds like a pretty big problem. One brought on by the company running off people several years ago, not keeping up with pay and work rules that create QOL issues.

I agree that the increased flow SEEMS to benefit most but the lifers, but those guys paid as well. And I think there could have still been other improvements. And there is not one FO YET (well maybe E175 spoke for all and he just made it) that has said they wanted ďassistanceĒ to get more flight time to upgrade.

AeroEnvoy
05-08-2018, 10:04 PM
So I wonder if this 50 hours of IOE can be waived for the traditional 25 hrs. I do not want to be sitting with an IOE check airman for 50 hrs, fly 6 day trips and being at the mercy of the training department not knowing when I'll be scheduled to fly next. I'd rather be on reserve where I know when I can be used. If I'm ready by 25 hours then I'm ready, I don't see the use of prolonging it any longer. Plus I'll have less time now to consolidate given that IOE doesn't count towards consolidation.

EmbaeDriver
05-08-2018, 11:09 PM
Who are the ďprotected pilotsĒ?

SilentLurker
05-08-2018, 11:56 PM
Nothing here is going to get more people in the door either, which will shrink classes once the RTP and cadet pipelines clear out, and provide more leverage when the literally thousands of '16-'17 hires want to upgrade and need FOs to fly with.


These LOAís dealing with FO Advancement, and CA Pay, etc are temporary, expires in about 2 years if I read it correctly. The not so good part only affects those FOs in the 800-950hr range who will get additional flying for what 2-3 months????

As for getting NH in the door:

1. Plenty of regular non cadet CFIs in Envoy pilot recruitment pool. Company slowed regular FO hiring down to focus more on eligible DECs /Street CAs onboarding to resolve a Self induced CA shortage need. Which caused them to violate the contract and meter the flow and get in a bind.

2. Thanks to American Airline Cadet program, $100K loan for flight training costs & job placement at WO, Plus the flow, FO pilot pool for Envoy & WO in the future will not be problem.


FWIW, many of you are need to also pay attention to the market. Oil prices have gone UP yes UP 40% in 1yr this = major cost= major hit on profits= lower margins= cost constraints due to unhappy shareholders= no pay raise some of u think is available to be granted now, now , now.

Go watch the SOTA town hall. Contentious scene between another labor group and Robert/Doug. They are tight on the purse strings. That is for certain.

But it wonít effect recruiting as droves are in the pipeline waiting at the gates.

SilentLurker
05-09-2018, 12:18 AM
With being here 2 years and seeing double the seniority behind me, it is interesting the Protected Pilots are getting so much at the expense of over half the pilots on the roster. I realize a lot of the MEC is about to flow and about time to clear the cobwebs but with well over half the list here less than 2 years i dont want to hear about the protected pilots 8 years on reserve or any other violins they wanna play. I want pay and qol, irregardless of them and the contract they all voted in thats a complete joke.



Sorry at the expense of half the pilots on roster?

Letís be clear with facts: The 800-950hr FOs who decide to hide out on Reserve and not fly to avoid Vacancy /Displacement or the in-between Standing Vacancy are the ones disadvantaged. These folks are the ones the company would like to nudge into upgrading. These pilots (800-950 hrs FOs )are given added flying if they DECIDE to bid reserve (in attempt to avoid flying).

Having that in the settlement hedges the company and helps the company stabilize projections for staffing needs, blocks, flows, aircraft, etc. Not agreeing or disagreeing., just stating the bigger picture for awareness.

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 03:13 AM
For all those FOs that think the flow is UNFAIR how about we make it fair. How about you flow at the same length of time the PP pilots flow? Is it fair that you flow in 5.5-7 years when they flowed in 8-12 years?? Perspective people.

BIueSideUp
05-09-2018, 03:43 AM
For all those FOs that think the flow is UNFAIR how about we make it fair. How about you flow at the same length of time the PP pilots flow? Is it fair that you flow in 5.5-7 years when they flowed in 8-12 years?? Perspective people.

This is something that might soon be forgotten. I sat next to a guy last week that will be going to AA after 12+ years. All things staying the same, I'll be in his position in 4 years from today or at Delta in even less if that works out. That's totally unfair to the guys going now, but it's also the nature of the game.

Any FO that feels they aren't getting what they're entitled to is a Generation Z toddler that needs to take a hard look at how well-set they are to make an amazing career happen (and read up on some industry history). I would definitely consider these recent improvements a win. They weren't intended to benefit the FO group, but many FOs will benefit from them soon enough when they take a CA vacancy and get the immediate pay raise and when getting sent to LGA (if they even have to) becomes much more reasonable with the hotels and positive space to/from.

This is good news, which is better than bad news.

ytumama
05-09-2018, 03:56 AM
Good question as I am currently in upgrade training and since IOE is now 50 hours, if I still have to wait for that CA raise, Iíll be ready to picket our reps.

Looks like it starts for everybody once the bid is in. Is there a way to check your pay rate?

babs
05-09-2018, 04:13 AM
So I wonder if this 50 hours of IOE can be waived for the traditional 25 hrs. I do not want to be sitting with an IOE check airman for 50 hrs, fly 6 day trips and being at the mercy of the training department not knowing when I'll be scheduled to fly next. I'd rather be on reserve where I know when I can be used. If I'm ready by 25 hours then I'm ready, I don't see the use of prolonging it any longer. Plus I'll have less time now to consolidate given that IOE doesn't count towards consolidation.

In the bullet points it appears that the 50 hours is only for new hire CAs.

griff312
05-09-2018, 04:13 AM
With being here 2 years and seeing double the seniority behind me, it is interesting the Protected Pilots are getting so much at the expense of over half the pilots on the roster. I realize a lot of the MEC is about to flow and about time to clear the cobwebs but with well over half the list here less than 2 years i dont want to hear about the protected pilots 8 years on reserve or any other violins they wanna play. I want pay and qol, irregardless of them and the contract they all voted in thats a complete joke.

Cool story, bro...; "Before start checklist...!"

Dekal5
05-09-2018, 04:18 AM
For all those FOs that think the flow is UNFAIR how about we make it fair. How about you flow at the same length of time the PP pilots flow? Is it fair that you flow in 5.5-7 years when they flowed in 8-12 years?? Perspective people.

Yeah FOs lets make our flow 8-12 years so that we can make everything nice and FAIR for everyone. Since PP had it bad why donít we make it bad for the rest, thats fair right?
and you want to talk about perspective? Dude... You should stick with the, there are winners and losers rant.

mketch11
05-09-2018, 04:34 AM
So tired of the argument that Iím supposed to be ok with being crapped on just because someone else was crapped on long before me. 12 year flow all around would be fair? Guess what, if the outlook of the industry was similar to when you decided to stick it out at Eagle, then I would never have chosen this career. The 5 year flow is the only reason Iím an airline pilot. I would have taken a different line of work if retirements werenít going through the roof, but somehow Iím supposed to pay reparations for what someone elseís generation did at this company like I had a say. Like telling women to stop complaining about sexual harassment because at least they get to vote. Stop living in the past and try to make this a better job while the times are conducive to gains.

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 04:40 AM
So tired of the argument that Iím supposed to be ok with being crapped on just because someone else was crapped on long before me. 12 year flow all around would be fair? Guess what, if the outlook of the industry was similar to when you decided to stick it out at Eagle, then I would never have chosen this career. The 5 year flow is the only reason Iím an airline pilot. I would have taken a different line of work if retirements werenít going through the roof, but somehow Iím supposed to pay reparations for what someone elseís generation did at this company like I had a say. Like telling women to stop complaining about sexual harassment because at least they get to vote. Stop living in the past and try to make this a better job while the times are conducive to gains.

Your flow time just increased by 3-5 months. Do you not see that??

daveetasac
05-09-2018, 04:48 AM
Cool story, bro...; "Before start checklist...!"

You win the Internet for the day! :D

mketch11
05-09-2018, 04:48 AM
Your flow time just increased by 3-5 months. Do you not see that??
I saw 3-4, and Iím not sure itís a gain if itís correcting a flow violation, it should have been that way already. More of a Nuetral outcome on that minus the guys who already left who were hosed.

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 04:52 AM
I saw 3-4, and Iím not sure itís a gain if itís correcting a flow violation, it should have been that way already. More of a Nuetral outcome on that minus the guys who already left who were hosed.

Everyone saw and read three to four months, but the reality is three to five months.

My flow date moved up 4 and possibly 5 months.

havick206
05-09-2018, 04:58 AM
Your flow time just increased by 3-5 months. Do you not see that??

Please show your math working based on the LOA how your flow just increased. Are you sure you didnít mean decrease by 3-5 months?

Cyio
05-09-2018, 04:59 AM
This is something that might soon be forgotten. I sat next to a guy last week that will be going to AA after 12+ years. All things staying the same, I'll be in his position in 4 years from today or at Delta in even less if that works out. That's totally unfair to the guys going now, but it's also the nature of the game.

Any FO that feels they aren't getting what they're entitled to is a Generation Z toddler that needs to take a hard look at how well-set they are to make an amazing career happen (and read up on some industry history). I would definitely consider these recent improvements a win. They weren't intended to benefit the FO group, but many FOs will benefit from them soon enough when they take a CA vacancy and get the immediate pay raise and when getting sent to LGA (if they even have to) becomes much more reasonable with the hotels and positive space to/from.

This is good news, which is better than bad news.
While I generally feel this was a positive for the PPís and soon to upgrade FOís I must admit I hate the argument of ďwell I went through hell so you should be grateful you didnít and just shut the hell upĒ. This is a thinly veiled excuse for you choosing to stay in an environment that wasnít friendly to you. I would not be here right now if the advertised flow was 8 years, plain and simple. I switched careers to come to this for the very fact the time to majors was supposed to come way down.

Anyway, I appreciate that you stuck it out, I wouldnít have thatís for sure, but please donít project your frustration for having to do it on those that are fighting for the betterment of all the pilots.

Remember itís also the low time guys, older guys switching careers and the people that didnít slug it out through the crap that are pushing you up and out of here.

Much respect all around and hopefully this isnít taken personally.

Cyio
05-09-2018, 05:02 AM
Is the ALPA flow sheet updated?

NoValueAviator
05-09-2018, 05:17 AM
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here I think. Envoy isn't competing with American Eagle in 2008 to attract pilots, it's competing with Endeavor, Republic, etc. in 2018. It will ultimately need to offer a competitive package, regardless of whether anyone in the pilot group feels that new FO's should be punished so they "can know what it's like."

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 05:22 AM
While I generally feel this was a positive for the PPís and soon to upgrade FOís I must admit I hate the argument of ďwell I went through hell so you should be grateful you didnít and just shut the hell upĒ. This is a thinly veiled excuse for you choosing to stay in an environment that wasnít friendly to you. I would not be here right now if the advertised flow was 8 years, plain and simple. I switched careers to come to this for the very fact the time to majors was supposed to come way down.

Anyway, I appreciate that you stuck it out, I wouldnít have thatís for sure, but please donít project your frustration for having to do it on those that are fighting for the betterment of all the pilots.

Remember itís also the low time guys, older guys switching careers and the people that didnít slug it out through the crap that are pushing you up and out of here.

Much respect all around and hopefully this isnít taken personally.

There is one group that is harmed by these LOAs. The pilots that are about 700-950 that don't want to upgrade out of base. Everyone else it's a win all around. More CAs on the list means more FOs flying to build time. More CAs on the list means other CAs relative seniority increases and more lines to choose from. More flow NOW benefits everyone that intends to flow.

SkylineAviation
05-09-2018, 05:28 AM
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here I think. Envoy isn't competing with American Eagle in 2008 to attract pilots, it's competing with Endeavor, Republic, etc. in 2018. It will ultimately need to offer a competitive package, regardless of whether anyone in the pilot group feels that new FO's should be punished so they "can know what it's like."

What are you guys not getting? Me or no one I know feels that it should suck for you cause it sucked for us. Iím glad you all got money & better opportunities. What me & others are saying is stop complaining and whining. This helps EVERYONE on property flow faster. Sorry you canít sit rsv longer delaying upgrade but thatís a rather minuscule problem for some vs the larger picture of getting the PP & everyone out quicker to AA.

ChickHicks
05-09-2018, 05:29 AM
The company doesnít see a need to raise anything (pay,QoL,etc.) if there is a pool of applicants waiting for a class date. This was not a contract negotiation.

Most, if not all, PPís want better things for the NHís and guys on property. Regardless of their history with the company. I strongly recommend all you guys post-PP to get very active with union volunteering. You guys will be replacing all the current guys soon!

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 05:29 AM
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here I think. Envoy isn't competing with American Eagle in 2008 to attract pilots, it's competing with Endeavor, Republic, etc. in 2018. It will ultimately need to offer a competitive package, regardless of whether anyone in the pilot group feels that new FO's should be punished so they "can know what it's like."

Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.

ChickHicks
05-09-2018, 05:30 AM
Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.

^^^THIS^^^

havick206
05-09-2018, 05:31 AM
There is one group that is harmed by these LOAs. The pilots that are about 700-950 that don't want to upgrade out of base.

That excuse doesnít really hold water anymore, maybe 6 months ago yes I would agree. The guys in that hour range can already hold any base or within one bid cycle which the loa provides positive space and commuter hotels for. By the time they finish training they probably wonít even see lga. The only ones really complaining are the ones holding out for DFW 175 and instead displaced to LGA in turn they can bid back to dfw anyway still on the 145. Not to mention they will get CA rates 3-4 months earlier than they otherwise would have and also go back to 175 long term when they can hold it.

SkylineAviation
05-09-2018, 05:36 AM
Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.

Exactly right.

The debate of all this is the oneís who got the most are stomping their feet cause for the 1st time they didnít get the most out of the deal. In reality it helps EVERYONE move faster. It was aimed at a remedy for the PP who were the oneís actually harmed & grievances filed over.

Pat2389
05-09-2018, 05:41 AM
I saw this question several pages back but not sure anybody knew. As a point of clarification...if you were already awarded the CA upgrade, does the CA pay rate take affect from the date of the agreement, or not until the next bid? Thanks.

Cyio
05-09-2018, 05:43 AM
Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.
Well, to your point several pages back there was just that occurring, stating that because they battled through it we should just be happy.

Again, I generally fee this was a good move for everyone and Iím happy it got passed.

Anyway, congratulations to all and again much respect, I am officially out of this thread. ✌️

havick206
05-09-2018, 05:45 AM
I saw this question several pages back but not sure anybody knew. As a point of clarification...if you were already awarded the CA upgrade, does the CA pay rate take affect from the date of the agreement, or not until the next bid? Thanks.

Still waiting fo find out an answer in that specifically.

In the meantime this loa does not negate the street ca grievance currently in.

Pat2389
05-09-2018, 06:06 AM
I got an answer from the negotiating committee. No FO already awarded CA will receive CA pay until the NEXT bid.

fatman
05-09-2018, 06:12 AM
Iím happy for a 3-5 month bump in my flow date. ****ty that I canít even hide on reserve now so Iím not forced to upgrade. Happy that at least, when they send my ass to lagarbage I get hotels. Still a ****ty two leg commute but I guess the plaza and A12 passes arenít SOO bad. But I get some more money once Iím awarded CA. Not terrible. Still think that for the amount leverage we had, this fell short.

Can everyone stop whining about how the PPs were crapped on. Sorry the NHs donít get to experience the same stuff you did, but thatís because most of them were still in high school. Everyone in this industry knows itís all a timing game. Thatís why those 200 or so lifers on the top of seniority list didnít go to dAAdy. Cause it was a different time. You guys came in at a bad time. I mean we are talking 5years post 9/11. Donít tell me you didnít think it would have a been a crap ride. Some of you probably are the same ones that got hired with 300 hrs. And in ten years when youíre a 777 capt and legislators change the 1500hr rule, youíll be sitting pretty. Itís all timing and you guys just happened to miss the mark.

uavking
05-09-2018, 06:20 AM
I got an answer from the negotiating committee. No FO already awarded CA will receive CA pay until the NEXT bid.

Classy. Thereís a whole batch of guys whoíll be sitting in class getting FO pay when they could have been getting CA pay had that section of the LOA been worded better...

havick206
05-09-2018, 06:24 AM
I got an answer from the negotiating committee. No FO already awarded CA will receive CA pay until the NEXT bid.

Yes but withholding rules still apply and thereís another grievance in specifically covering this for backpay due to street CAís hired outside the vacancy bid in Jan that went of training immediately that this loa doesnít negate or close out.

havick206
05-09-2018, 06:26 AM
Iím happy for a 3-5 month bump in my flow date. ****ty that I canít even hide on reserve now so Iím not forced to upgrade. Happy that at least, when they send my ass to lagarbage I get hotels. Still a ****ty two leg commute but I guess the plaza and A12 passes arenít SOO bad. But I get some more money once Iím awarded CA. Not terrible. Still think that for the amount leverage we had, this fell short.

Can everyone stop whining about how the PPs were crapped on. Sorry the NHs donít get to experience the same stuff you did, but thatís because most of them were still in high school. Everyone in this industry knows itís all a timing game. Thatís why those 200 or so lifers on the top of seniority list didnít go to dAAdy. Cause it was a different time. You guys came in at a bad time. I mean we are talking 5years post 9/11. Donít tell me you didnít think it would have a been a crap ride. Some of you probably are the same ones that got hired with 300 hrs. And in ten years when youíre a 777 capt and legislators change the 1500hr rule, youíll be sitting pretty. Itís all timing and you guys just happened to miss the mark.

To put things into context, what rough seniority number are you right now? You probably can hold DFW (or any other base) right now if your avoiding flying to upgrade.

mdot
05-09-2018, 06:29 AM
I saw 3-4, and Iím not sure itís a gain if itís correcting a flow violation, it should have been that way already. More of a Nuetral outcome on that minus the guys who already left who were hosed.

"Should have"?

You sound like a child.

mdot
05-09-2018, 06:31 AM
There is one group that is harmed by these LOAs. The pilots that are about 700-950 that don't want to upgrade out of base. Everyone else it's a win all around. More CAs on the list means more FOs flying to build time. More CAs on the list means other CAs relative seniority increases and more lines to choose from. More flow NOW benefits everyone that intends to flow.

I hear XJT has like an 11yr upgrade time. In case any of our pilots want to avoid being forced to upgrade.

uavking
05-09-2018, 06:41 AM
Looks like it starts for everybody once the bid is in. Is there a way to check your pay rate?

You can check your pay rate by looking at your ďemployee profile.Ē Thereís a button/link for that towards the top of the my.envoyair main page. No longer listed on epays.

ytumama
05-09-2018, 07:53 AM
Classy. Thereís a whole batch of guys whoíll be sitting in class getting FO pay when they could have been getting CA pay had that section of the LOA been worded better...

Probably sitting next to a guy with a month on property making CA pay. Way to go amature negotiators! Another loophole because you donít understand legal language or worse donít care.

ytumama
05-09-2018, 07:54 AM
You can check your pay rate by looking at your ďemployee profile.Ē Thereís a button/link for that towards the top of the my.envoyair main page. No longer listed on epays.

Thanks for the help!

mdot
05-09-2018, 08:03 AM
Probably sitting next to a guy with a month on property making CA pay. Way to go amature negotiators! Another loophole because you donít understand legal language or worse donít care.

Amatures!!

ytumama
05-09-2018, 08:10 AM
Amatures!!

Usually itís a good thing, lots of shakey profile camera work.

PilotJ3
05-09-2018, 08:12 AM
Flow should be a plan B, not a plan A like most here are thinking.

PP are holding for Flow, because they are close to go. Most are in the early 30s and will have a great career. When the last Envoy NH flow will be around 3,000-5,000 numbers below the last PP. Those saying the PP had bad timing are wrong. Maybe a 23yr old will flow at 28-29, but will follow that PP for around 25-30 yrs.

28 + 30 = 58 before you get that PP position in AA.

Any new hire should be flying their butt off, get the upgrade and start looking for a job somewhere else. Anyone hiding on reserve is doing it wrong.

pinkvisual
05-09-2018, 08:23 AM
Cool story, bro...; "Before start checklist...!"

Best post so far! Lol

pinkvisual
05-09-2018, 08:26 AM
There is one group that is harmed by these LOAs. The pilots that are about 700-950 that don't want to upgrade out of base. Everyone else it's a win all around. More CAs on the list means more FOs flying to build time. More CAs on the list means other CAs relative seniority increases and more lines to choose from. More flow NOW benefits everyone that intends to flow.

Doesnít help the lifers at all.

3EngineTaxi
05-09-2018, 09:18 AM
In my opinion, the settlement and LOAs were a pragmatic surrender. I was disappointed at how weak the remedy was, as an additional 4 flows/month is not enough. The pattern of the company violating the contract continues.

Everyone junior to a flowing pilot will benefit from slightly accelerated flow and moving up in seniority and less stagnation (This helps even junior lifers, but not the senior lifers).

I know pilots who have waited over a year from captain award to receiving captain pay, due to no fault of their own. They were at the mercy of the company. I am glad this was remedied for the new guys so they will have it better than those before them.

There is a lot of bickering on this forum. It's great to be angry, but we need pilot unity. THE UNION IS ONLY AS STRONG AS ITS MEMBERS. If you are angry or want to make things better in the future, PLEASE GET INVOLVED. Attend union meetings. Vote in ALL UNION ELECTIONS, no matter how minor you think they are. Instead of whining about the guys who have "one foot out the door," get involved and run in the next election for your local LEC status rep position (once you are off probation). Start a recall of your reps if you think you can do it better. Contact your reps and direct them to recall the negotiating committee. Volunteer for the Strategic Planning Committee. Volunteer for the negotiating committee. The union especially needs junior pilots who will likely be around for the next 3-10 years.

I would love to see all this bickering and anger redirected into productive union activity.

Cpt Rex Kramer
05-09-2018, 09:21 AM
There is a lot of bickering on this forum. It's great to be angry, but we need pilot unity. THE UNION IS ONLY AS STRONG AS ITS MEMBERS. If you are angry or want to make things better in the future, PLEASE GET INVOLVED. Attend union meetings. Vote in ALL UNION ELECTIONS, no matter how minor you think they are. Instead of whining about the guys who have "one foot out the door," get involved and run in the next election for your local LEC status rep position (once you are off probation). Start a recall of your reps if you think you can do it better. Contact your reps and direct them to recall the negotiating committee. Volunteer for the Strategic Planning Committee. Volunteer for the negotiating committee. The union especially needs junior pilots who will likely be around for the next 3-10 years.

Give me a break. The union works for the company. I want my dues back.

3EngineTaxi
05-09-2018, 09:24 AM
Give me a break. The union works for the company. I want my dues back.
Good luck with getting your dues back.

If you don't like the current union leadership, organize a recall campaign.

FlyPurdue
05-09-2018, 10:04 AM
I got an answer from the negotiating committee. No FO already awarded CA will receive CA pay until the NEXT bid.

I emailed pay before I read this, and they said they have not gotten guidance on this issue exactly, and would advise. To me it seems that another vacancy bid is imminent, because right now there is no Ďstanding vacancyísí and the company will be once again in violation by training / paying DECs.

I emailed travel, and am awaiting their guidance on how to book A12s, where we can confirm weather E-Space is or is not available. Hopefully this means they just turn on the Ďbusiness travelí functionality on the NRTP.

SilentLurker
05-09-2018, 10:10 AM
There's a fundamental misunderstanding here I think. Envoy isn't competing with American Eagle in 2008 to attract pilots, it's competing with Endeavor, Republic, etc. in 2018. It will ultimately need to offer a competitive package, regardless of whether anyone in the pilot group feels that new FO's should be punished so they "can know what it's like."



There is a waiting period for a class date for the top 2 ďregionalĒ carriers with waiting period of 3 months. Just for a slot to start class. Not much leverage there to request a ďcompetitiveĒ package, unless the company wants something really bad.

1. Endeavor- classes full till July
2. Envoy- is only taking DEC immediately and filling remaining slots as needed with Cadet & RTP folks, and some are waiting a few months out for a class date.

So please tell me how you would negotiate with management that they NEED to be competitive with Endeavor, Republic, AWC, PDT, PSA.

go skers
05-09-2018, 11:11 AM
In my opinion, the settlement and LOAs were a pragmatic surrender. I was disappointed at how weak the remedy was, as an additional 4 flows/month is not enough. The pattern of the company violating the contract continues.

Everyone junior to a flowing pilot will benefit from slightly accelerated flow and moving up in seniority and less stagnation (This helps even junior lifers, but not the senior lifers).

I know pilots who have waited over a year from captain award to receiving captain pay, due to no fault of their own. They were at the mercy of the company. I am glad this was remedied for the new guys so they will have it better than those before them.

There is a lot of bickering on this forum. It's great to be angry, but we need pilot unity. THE UNION IS ONLY AS STRONG AS ITS MEMBERS. If you are angry or want to make things better in the future, PLEASE GET INVOLVED. Attend union meetings. Vote in ALL UNION ELECTIONS, no matter how minor you think they are. Instead of whining about the guys who have "one foot out the door," get involved and run in the next election for your local LEC status rep position (once you are off probation). Start a recall of your reps if you think you can do it better. Contact your reps and direct them to recall the negotiating committee. Volunteer for the Strategic Planning Committee. Volunteer for the negotiating committee. The union especially needs junior pilots who will likely be around for the next 3-10 years.

I would love to see all this bickering and anger redirected into productive union activity.

I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'm not sure people realize the non pragmatic way would have resulted in a full arbitration that would have stretched out 12-18 months with no guarantee of a better outcome. It's entirely possible that the the metering would have been ruled favorably to the company and we lose whatever leverage we had to increase flow numbers over the next 18-24 months.

Instead,
-current FOs get CA pay at award now which could be anywhere from 3-6 months of much better pay

-positive space commutes and paid hotels for 3 months which would cover a good chunk of the time you're in LGA until you could hold ORD/MIA/DFW which any base can be held within a year on the 145 currently

-FOs that get displaced off trips for time building after monthly bidding is done have no reassignment responsibility. The pilots between 800-950 hours lose out but the guys below 800 hours will still get to play the reserve bidding game

-everyone beyond the protected pilots get 3-6 months shaved off their flow date since 4/month and 22 additional settlement slots adds up to quite a bit over a two year period

-50 hours of required CA IOE will lead to needing more LCAs which will also make the position much more junior since increased flow will wipe out most of our current LCAs sooner since the vast majority of them are protected pilots. This will increase pilots pay due to the override or build up resumes if someone wants to get hired somewhere else

Those are all pretty descent gets for a relatively narrow grievance in exchange for creating a pathway for DECs that won't cause another round of cascading grievances and pushing guys from 800 hours over the 950 hour mark. That current practice of bidding FO reserve might be fleeting once the staffing surplus on FOs causes guys to fly more on reserve anyway

I'm all for increasing CA pay scales and pushing some reserve rule reform but this probably wasn't the place to make those gains. Market conditions and tighter pilot staffing over the next couple of years will dictate that better than this grievance settlement.

v1rotate88
05-09-2018, 11:14 AM
A lot of butthurt coming from millenial FOs who haven't had to sit years on RSV, get no bonus, go through the ABCs in the school house, get furloughed or go through bankruptcy. Someone get them a cry closet. #HereIFlowNow.

griff312
05-09-2018, 12:13 PM
Wow. The insanity of it all. No one is advocating we got crapped on so you should get crapped on too. Never has a single pilot group got so much and claims to be getting the short end of the stick so often. What punishment have you received??? 20k bonus, third year FO pay, low reserve time, sky rocketing seniority number, 175 (for some), CA pay when awarded the upgrade, unlimited commuter hotels for three months, A12 passes, FO retention bonuses, 5-7 year flow...... come on!!!! What else do you want?? The PP group got a few thousand dollars and that's it. The PP group has received NOTHING that you have not received. Yet you continue to get all the benefits of the current market.

Yes! Thank You!

mketch11
05-09-2018, 12:23 PM
New ALPA seniority list is out and my projected flow date moved up exactly 3 months. Not sure why people are throwing out 5 and 6 months out there

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 04:06 PM
New ALPA seniority list is out and my projected flow date moved up exactly 3 months. Not sure why people are throwing out 5 and 6 months out there

I haven't seen 6 but I threw out 5. Anyone that will be forecasted to flow after December that now flows before December will get an extra month bump.

highfarfast
05-09-2018, 04:11 PM
New ALPA seniority list is out and my projected flow date moved up exactly 3 months. Not sure why people are throwing out 5 and 6 months out there

My GUESS is that the alpa projection doesnt include the 'catch up' flows. Too hard for me to analyze on my phone but i did see that my date changed by 4 months.

NoValueAviator
05-09-2018, 04:13 PM
There is a waiting period for a class date for the top 2 ďregionalĒ carriers with waiting period of 3 months. Just for a slot to start class. Not much leverage there to request a ďcompetitiveĒ package, unless the company wants something really bad.

1. Endeavor- classes full till July
2. Envoy- is only taking DEC immediately and filling remaining slots as needed with Cadet & RTP folks, and some are waiting a few months out for a class date.

So please tell me how you would negotiate with management that they NEED to be competitive with Endeavor, Republic, AWC, PDT, PSA.

Wait until the fat part of the list upgrades and they start hurting for newhires again if they want to grow, then just ask I guess. This doesn't seem that complicated.

highfarfast
05-09-2018, 04:15 PM
I haven't seen 6 but I threw out 5. Anyone that will be forecasted to flow after December that now flows before December will get an extra month bump.

Concept sounds right but if so, my date is more like an 8 mo improvement. 4 mo on the new plan... Plus 4 decembers. That seem quite high.

Jetunderwing
05-09-2018, 04:37 PM
We need a separate union and split this company up. The protected pilots and lifers can give the dues they pay to ALPA for shiny picket signs for JetBlue, WestJet and Frontier. Well over half the seniority list has been at Envoy not American Eagle flying Jetstreams and ATRs for 2 years or less. The protected pilots calling the majority of this pilot roster coddled children shows how inept and inept the contract they voted in is. Well over half the list is being punished for the gain of the protected pilots, time for the coddled children as I guess we are called to do something, and since we have the numbers it shouldnt be hard.

daveetasac
05-09-2018, 04:49 PM
Whatíre you waiting for? Get going on that!

v1rotate88
05-09-2018, 05:03 PM
We need a separate union and split this company up. The protected pilots and lifers can give the dues they pay to ALPA for shiny picket signs for JetBlue, WestJet and Frontier. Well over half the seniority list has been at Envoy not American Eagle flying Jetstreams and ATRs for 2 years or less. The protected pilots calling the majority of this pilot roster coddled children shows how inept and inept the contract they voted in is. Well over half the list is being punished for the gain of the protected pilots, time for the coddled children as I guess we are called to do something, and since we have the numbers it shouldnt be hard.

Yea.. you could do something... Take the trash bag out and hurry up and upgrade.

mdot
05-09-2018, 05:24 PM
We need a separate union and split this company up. The protected pilots and lifers can give the dues they pay to ALPA for shiny picket signs for JetBlue, WestJet and Frontier. Well over half the seniority list has been at Envoy not American Eagle flying Jetstreams and ATRs for 2 years or less. The protected pilots calling the majority of this pilot roster coddled children shows how inept and inept the contract they voted in is. Well over half the list is being punished for the gain of the protected pilots, time for the coddled children as I guess we are called to do something, and since we have the numbers it shouldnt be hard.

https://preview.ibb.co/cEbFQd/IMG_4760.jpg (https://ibb.co/fB4PJy)

SilentLurker
05-09-2018, 05:30 PM
https://preview.ibb.co/cEbFQd/IMG_4760.jpg (https://ibb.co/fB4PJy)



https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180510/c1269dd3e82226575934953c9638cd06.jpeg




Ohh no he didnít.....

DanRoman
05-09-2018, 06:09 PM
ďInstead of slogging away at FO pay for these intervening months, you will be paid as a CA. Third year FO pay is 38.28. Third year CA pay is 73.33. This 35.05 per hour raise x 72 hours per month = an extra ~2500 per month. This far exceeds the retention bonus, which was $2500 quarterly.Ē

Are there any third year CAs making $73.33?? Also, third year FO pay is $41, correct?

Ijustlikeflying
05-09-2018, 06:29 PM
ďInstead of slogging away at FO pay for these intervening months, you will be paid as a CA. Third year FO pay is 38.28. Third year CA pay is 73.33. This 35.05 per hour raise x 72 hours per month = an extra ~2500 per month. This far exceeds the retention bonus, which was $2500 quarterly.Ē


Are there any third year CAs making $73.33?? Also, third year FO pay is $41, correct?

You are correct on the FO pay. The captain pay question Iím curious about myself? I think it has something to do with the pay Banding, which I never cared to read into because reading to much hurts my head.

Pedro4President
05-09-2018, 06:32 PM
We need a separate union and split this company up. The protected pilots and lifers can give the dues they pay to ALPA for shiny picket signs for JetBlue, WestJet and Frontier. Well over half the seniority list has been at Envoy not American Eagle flying Jetstreams and ATRs for 2 years or less. The protected pilots calling the majority of this pilot roster coddled children shows how inept and inept the contract they voted in is. Well over half the list is being punished for the gain of the protected pilots, time for the coddled children as I guess we are called to do something, and since we have the numbers it shouldnt be hard.

What punishment have you received??

Dekal5
05-09-2018, 07:19 PM
https://preview.ibb.co/cEbFQd/IMG_4760.jpg (https://ibb.co/fB4PJy)

Without the coddled children then you are still just a 10yr+ FO. :eek:

NoValueAviator
05-09-2018, 07:24 PM
Man, so caustic and adversarial. I suppose you think they'll appreciate that from a junior FO over at AA, huh? :p

copycopy
05-09-2018, 07:39 PM
ďInstead of slogging away at FO pay for these intervening months, you will be paid as a CA. Third year FO pay is 38.28. Third year CA pay is 73.33. This 35.05 per hour raise x 72 hours per month = an extra ~2500 per month. This far exceeds the retention bonus, which was $2500 quarterly.Ē

Are there any third year CAs making $73.33?? Also, third year FO pay is $41, correct?

I think this was just a mistake in the comms. 3rd year CA would almost definitely be on Pay Band A, which would be $69.68/hour. 3rd year FO pay is $38.28/hr. So $69.68-$38.28=$31.40/hr difference.

72 hr month = $2,260.80 difference
80 hr month = $2,512.80 difference
85 hr month = $2,669.00 difference

copycopy
05-09-2018, 07:45 PM
What punishment have you received??

Isn't it clear? In exchange for 3-4 months taken off of their flow through time, and an additional 3-4 months of captain pay while still flying as a first officer and/or in training, they will have to upgrade to the captain position, something that many protected pilots waited 8 to 10 years for while the industry stagnated. On top of that, they will have direct entry captains below them on the reserve list when they upgrade so they'll never have the opportunity to be the bottom guy as a reserve captain. Absolutely barbaric!

Inclined plane
05-09-2018, 08:09 PM
ďInstead of slogging away at FO pay for these intervening months, you will be paid as a CA. Third year FO pay is 38.28. Third year CA pay is 73.33. This 35.05 per hour raise x 72 hours per month = an extra ~2500 per month. This far exceeds the retention bonus, which was $2500 quarterly.Ē



Are there any third year CAs making $73.33?? Also, third year FO pay is $41, correct?



Third year captain pay for me is $69.68 for the pay band of the small RJ, and Iím an E75 captain. The pay band is real, yet not represented accurately on APC. Fairly misleading.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jonrayburn
05-09-2018, 08:36 PM
any idea when the LOAs will be added to the contract for us to read?

bigtime209
05-10-2018, 02:37 AM
You are correct on the FO pay. The captain pay question Iím curious about myself? I think it has something to do with the pay Banding, which I never cared to read into because reading to much hurts my head.

Wow.........

bigtime209
05-10-2018, 02:38 AM
any idea when the LOAs will be added to the contract for us to read?

Theyíre posted on the ALPA site

ytumama
05-10-2018, 05:30 AM
I emailed pay before I read this, and they said they have not gotten guidance on this issue exactly, and would advise. To me it seems that another vacancy bid is imminent, because right now there is no Ďstanding vacancyísí and the company will be once again in violation by training / paying DECs.

I emailed travel, and am awaiting their guidance on how to book A12s, where we can confirm weather E-Space is or is not available. Hopefully this means they just turn on the Ďbusiness travelí functionality on the NRTP.

Anybody get more on this? Is it the next vacancy or standing vacancy? How are the DECs from the most recent class being paid? Asking for a friend that hit the craps table pretty hard when the LOA came out.

griff312
05-10-2018, 06:27 AM
Isn't it clear? In exchange for 3-4 months taken off of their flow through time, and an additional 3-4 months of captain pay while still flying as a first officer and/or in training, they will have to upgrade to the captain position, something that many protected pilots waited 8 to 10 years for while the industry stagnated. On top of that, they will have direct entry captains below them on the reserve list when they upgrade so they'll never have the opportunity to be the bottom guy as a reserve captain. Absolutely barbaric!

Yeah, what company did these Hillary Voters and Bernie Bro's think they were getting hired in to!?!? It's Sooooooo unfair to think that an airline would actually require you to work for your pay and benefits; require you to eventually upgrade and change bases. I mean geez... Nobody read the actual job requirements and expectations to these guys when they applied and interviewed, so how could you expect them to know what to expect???
I mean, don't you all understand; Envoy is in business to employ ME, and keep ME at home making ME money, dodging actual work. Why would they be in business to actually provide a service to a customer, and make a profit... This is 2018, folks! Wake up! A Revolution Is Coming; Not For Sale! Enough Is Enough! Feel the Bern!

OK, enough joking, sarcasm, and trolling coddled new hires. I totally get it, (and I'm speaking to the FO's who are up in arms over this), You THOUGHT you were hired into a company set on a certain track, and would have the option to upgrade when and where you wanted to. Then the company's past mistakes caught up with them (running off over 1K pilots between 2013 - 2015), and it threw your plans off track. Learning to be a safe Captain in 1 or 2 years, and 1000 flight hours at this company IS a tough order to fill, especially with the burden that is put on CA's shoulders. Those before you had a lot more time (desired, or not) to prepare. You're not looking forward to commuting to reserve in LGA for an indefinite amount of time. You feel like you were offered a golden ticket when you were hired, then handed a turd. The old bait and switch. I get it.

BUT, Please don't think that you're the first one this has happened to. And you won't be the last. I'm not saying that it's right, or fair. But that is the unfortunate nature of this business. You knew (or should have) when you signed on, and decided this as a career path. Do we have short sighted managers that didn't plan ahead, and now the pilot group is set up to fix their mistakes? Maybe... I don't know... But Envoy does not set their plans decades ahead. Some times it's day by day. This is because AA does not set a large forecast for our future. Industry dynamics change daily. Envoy was largely shrunk; down from 3300 pilots to about 1800 pilots, and 7 bases down to 2 bases, as US Air management decided Eagle was too large and that outsourcing was the way to go. Then the FFD carriers couldn't fill the orders. Love him or hate him, Pedro decided to show that we could be as strong and reliable as we once were, and we were able to recapture a lot of that lost flying, and reopened 3 of the closed bases, spurring massive growth. That show of reliability and strength was placed on the shoulders of the pilots (PP's) who stayed and toughed it out during draconian pay cuts and horrible QOL for half a decade. The sacrifices the PP's made forced the company to offer these huge sign on bonuses and retention bonuses (which PP's get none of), hotels in base, fast upgrades, and more bases to choose from. That's why you're here. You're welcome...

I enjoy flying with you all. I know most aren't even millennials, as joked about. Heck, half of ya'll are older than me, and I'm in my 40's! Many of you have had successful previous careers, and are on your bucket list job, (except some of you learned your bucket has holes in it). I enjoy hearing about your past successes in life, and I learn from your experiences. Many of you also are retired military vets. As a vet myself, I enjoy the camaraderie when we fly together. I even served under some of you, in a previous life.
Surely you don't want to hear about our (PP's) walk barefoot uphill in the snow both ways to the terminal, paying for our own commutes, no hotels in base, $25K / yr FO pay, with no bonuses, no sign on or retention bonuses, No year 3 FO pay on day 1, no flow, forced to displace as 5 bases closes, 2 years of reserve, and 7 year upgrade. But please recognize and respect where we're coming from.

PP's flowing an extra 4 a month, and 18 additional flows throughout an unspecified amount of time, DOES benefit the whole pilot group. Yes, some more than others, but it does benefit everyone. 3 months of unlimited hotels and A passes doesn't make a forced upgrade to LGA whole, but it's a start. If this doesn't fix things, then Envoy will have to come back to the table, again, to offer more. But you don't get there by getting everything you want straight out of the gate. You don't win the war on the first day of battle, but through many small victories. There's a few small sacrifices and losses, but the outcome is looking better throughout this ever changing battlefield.

NoValueAviator
05-10-2018, 06:48 AM
I don't get the thinking here.

People stomp the brakes and stay home instead of flying their butts off to get to NCE faster (100% legal), this gets thrown into a negotiation where a sweet 3 mo TDY deal AND faster flow for PPs pops out, then a few PPs go on a rampage cursing millenials?

We all know there's still blood in this rock, look at what Endeavor pilots are getting. Why don't we all work together and try to get it?

griff312
05-10-2018, 07:30 AM
We need a separate union and split this company up. The protected pilots and lifers can give the dues they pay to ALPA for shiny picket signs for JetBlue, WestJet and Frontier. Well over half the seniority list has been at Envoy not American Eagle flying Jetstreams and ATRs for 2 years or less. The protected pilots calling the majority of this pilot roster coddled children shows how inept and inept the contract they voted in is. Well over half the list is being punished for the gain of the protected pilots, time for the coddled children as I guess we are called to do something, and since we have the numbers it shouldnt be hard.

Yes! I agree with you! Let's have 2 separate unions. One for the PP's and those who actually understand what's expected of them at work, we'll call it ALPA. And the other for the ones that are mad that they have to pay taxes on their golden ticket; we'll call it BBU (Bernie-Bro's United).

-ALPA: The old codgers that sacrificed pay and vacation, saw a shrinkage loss of 1500 pilots and 5 bases, 2 years reserve and 7 year upgrade, displaced more than once as 5 bases closed, and parked fleets.
These will be the guys and gals who stuck around and fought for their airline and pilot group during all of this and eventually forced in (AND GET TO KEEP) sign-on bonuses, and retention bonuses (which the PP get none of) for you today, hotels in base, free commute (used to have to pay the seat tax on D2's), improved commuter policy, improved (though not perfect) flow-through, and almost instant upgrade. The pilots in this group keep all of the current contract benefits, including the benefits in this latest LOA. The good things that you enjoy today were bought and paid for by these folks. That's why you're here... You're welcome.

-BBU: The 30 or so FO's that got hired in the last 2 years that want their pay and benefits but are hiding out on reserve so they don't have to fly and upgrade to CA in LGA.
Since they love reserve so much, they get to stay on reserve for 2 years, at the wonderful 2012 post BK FO pay scales, with no risk of holding a pesky a line with defined schedule.
No more bonuses to have to pay those nasty taxes on.
No more having to deal with company paid in-base hotels like 4-points, or Hilton. Now you can book and pay for the choice hotel of your choosing. Such fine accommodations that will fit your budget, like the Motel 6, Super 8, Quality Inn, ect...
You get to pay back sign on bonuses, as well as retroactively pay back the difference of year 1 and the year 3 FO pay that you got from day 1, that way you are no longer beholden to the company, and are a free Ze!
You pay the seat tax for all of your D2's on AA branded flights (excluding jumpseat). This will assure you some familiarity in the cockpit from the jumpseat, so that you don't have pay the seat tax in the back. You'll need this, so that you don't forget what line pilots do at work, while you live the good life, chilling in your crashpad on reserve.
You will be locked in as an FO (capped pay at 4 year scale) for at least 7 years, so you don't have to be unfairly forced into that horrible wretched CA seat and assume those pesky professional pilot responsibilities.
Best part is, you get to keep the fabulous OLD flow agreement, at 30% of AA new hires / month, metered to 15 / month, whichever is less.
Oh, and you get 2 whole shiny bases, of AA's choosing.

Great idea man! Now get out there and get em' signed up!

griff312
05-10-2018, 08:10 AM
I don't get the thinking here.

People stomp the brakes and stay home instead of flying their butts off to get to NCE faster (100% legal), this gets thrown into a negotiation where a sweet 3 mo TDY deal AND faster flow for PPs pops out, then a few PPs go on a rampage cursing millenials?

We all know there's still blood in this rock, look at what Endeavor pilots are getting. Why don't we all work together and try to get it?

I don't get it either, brother... And I agree, wish we could get what Endeavor is getting, but each small improvement is a step in the right direction. If we went into the negotiating room and slammed an "Endeavor or Better" demand on the table, the company would laugh us out of the room. Small victories at a time is what wins the battle. If this doesn't work, then they may come back with a better offer, one piece at a time.

As far as PP's bashing millenials, I think some of the 30 or so FO's that have been bidding reserve to avoid NCE, went ape-sh!t over the deal, and PP's got into with them over it. As a PP, I like the deal. Specifically because the company and union were willing to come together and come up with a remedy to the company's problem with FO's avoiding upgrade, and settle the flow grievance. Is it perfect, No. But it's a step in the right direction.

-The company was going to solve their FO upgrading problem with, or without our cooperation. I'm glad they chose to negotiate with us this time. If you remember, the whole reason we have those ridiculous pre-assigned RAPS, is because when 117 took effect, less than a dozen people on reserve got tired of early assignments, so they figured out a way to cheat the system. They would proffer a trip, then not confirm, and when scheduling would call then at Midnight-01 (interrupting sleep), they had to be released into 10 hours rest, effectively assuring that they didn't have to go on duty until 1001. It didn't even take 2 months for the company to go ballistic over this and screw the whole airline reserve system into pre-assigned RAPS to remedy the scheme that less than half a dozen people were pulling. So what options did we have here? Either negotiate a way to get the FO's flying, where the whole pilot group benefits, or screw EVERYONE on reserve with another "Reserve Time Balancing" Scheme.
If you don't know what that is, "RTB" is where they assign reserve flying, out of seniority order, to ensure that everyone flies at least at minimum amount of hours a month. For those who wanted to fly, you would no longer be used once you hit 35 hours for the month, and flying would be given to someone that hasn't yet flown that many hours yet.
So either way, the company was going to "get these guys". So at least they worked out a way to make it a bit more bearable. But none-the-less, it would have been better to remedy the source of 'WHY' people didn't want to upgrade: the QOL.

-As for the increased upgrade, who knows how long a grievance would have taken to play out, and HOW it would have played out. Maybe we could have gotten a better deal, such as retroactive loss of pay / time at AA. But given the trend of past grievance results, I doubt we would have come out much better than we did in this settlement.

For those who are upset over this, and mad at the PP's, Yes, as a PP, I am happy with the deal. But we did not vote on this, nor have any input into it. It was a ALPA and Company closed door negotiation, and I think they did a decent job here. Could it have been better? Maybe, maybe not...

-

jonrayburn
05-10-2018, 08:29 AM
Theyíre posted on the ALPA site
Thanks


iv. Any pilot awarded a Standing Bid upgrade to Captain shall be subject to a twenty-four month training freeze, in accordance with section 15.J.1.a.

Maybe ill just wait to be displaced, or proffer to displace.

BernieBrosMEC
05-10-2018, 08:38 AM
As unofficial chairman of the BBU first order of business is purchasing the worlds smallest violin to play as we read these sob stories from our dear PP. We are sorry you had to go through those trying times, and we understand many of you still suffer from the mental anguish of that terrible decade.

However, the 30 strong BBU members will take a stand, and make our voices hear on this forum. We want to stay home and get paid! We will only fly the biggest and shiniest jets! We will not commute to LaGarbage! When we get to that negotiating table we will say ďgive us endeavor rates, or give us better!Ē

v1rotate88
05-10-2018, 10:52 AM
As unofficial chairman of the BBU first order of business is purchasing the worlds smallest violin to play as we read these sob stories from our dear PP. We are sorry you had to go through those trying times, and we understand many of you still suffer from the mental anguish of that terrible decade.

However, the 30 strong BBU members will take a stand, and make our voices hear on this forum. We want to stay home and get paid! We will only fly the biggest and shiniest jets! We will not commute to LaGarbage! When we get to that negotiating table we will say ďgive us endeavor rates, or give us better!Ē

Hahahahaha nice. And then you will go back to the line, and do nothing like the good kids you are when everyone laughs in your face. You'll at least get good at filling out grievances and get used to losing said grievances even when they are won.

Bigpimppilot
05-10-2018, 12:20 PM
Iím just not hip to the idea that we are ok with abrogating seniority and itís benefits. Who is anyone to take away my contractual right to bid rsv when staffing is good sit at home?

ParkingatMIA
05-10-2018, 12:32 PM
Iím just not hip to the idea that we are ok with abrogating seniority and itís benefits. Who is anyone to take away my contractual right to bid rsv when staffing is good sit at home?

Well youíve only been in this airline for a year, you NEED to pay your Dues! (According to some of the grumpier old guys here)

llws
05-10-2018, 01:00 PM
Iím just not hip to the idea that we are ok with abrogating seniority and itís benefits. Who is anyone to take away my contractual right to bid rsv when staffing is good sit at home?

Staffing is NOT good. You're missing the forest for the trees. Sure maybe FO staffing is bloated. But CA staffing will be tight for the foreseeable future. That means "sitting at home" is a short-lived "benefit" and will implode upon itself if we can't staff the flying with CAs.

Either we furlough FOs, or stop flowing CAs. Otherwise the FO list grows while the CA list shrinks and this place fails to function. Street CAs helps, but it's not enough. And the whole idea that we're putting guys brand new to our operation directly into the left seat, while we have people with at least a decent amount of experience already here who are trying to avoid upgrading, is a bit counterintuitive for safety's sake.

Bottom line: there's absolutely nothing wrong with working the contract to improve personal QOL. Luckily a small tweak has been made that will benefit EVERYONE here. We need CAs or this whole place falls apart.

Bigpimppilot
05-10-2018, 01:22 PM
Staffing is NOT good. You're missing the forest for the trees. Sure maybe FO staffing is bloated. But CA staffing will be tight for the foreseeable future. That means "sitting at home" is a short-lived "benefit" and will implode upon itself if we can't staff the flying with CAs.

Either we furlough FOs, or stop flowing CAs. Otherwise the FO list grows while the CA list shrinks and this place fails to function. Street CAs helps, but it's not enough. And the whole idea that we're putting guys brand new to our operation directly into the left seat, while we have people with at least a decent amount of experience already here who are trying to avoid upgrading, is a bit counterintuitive for safety's sake.

Bottom line: there's absolutely nothing wrong with working the contract to improve personal QOL. Luckily a small tweak has been made that will benefit EVERYONE here. We need CAs or this whole place falls apart.


No, it sounds like you and Sam both like to help the company find their way out of a box they put themselves into. Donít tell them how to manage and donít sell your coworkers down the road. Have you considered any management positions.

Quick history lesson. Puerto Rico had upgrades at least 6 months shorter than the jet back in the day bc people didnít want to go to the rock.

SS Minnow
05-10-2018, 02:17 PM
Whatever you do, strongly encourage your union reps to tell the company that the ďwe were up till two in the morning hammering out the details of the final language and yea, thereís some typos and verbiage issues but we sat across the table eye-to-eye and shook hands and promised and...Ē.

Same ole shtuff, same ole game. Make them have (as much as possible) accurate final language or include examples in the final language that demonstrates the intent. Donít rush to vote.

Now for a brief rant: I was a 10 yr FO (not by choice, but I would have probably waited 2~3 years, just me), sat six years on various reserves, made $19k my first year, flew with captains that upgraded in six months (and before I got hired) and waited 16 years to flow (first 14yrs because no one was hiring except LCC). I chose to be at eagle just like you young spoiled whipper-snappers did. In short quit yer bi****n. Ok, rant over.

But back to the main point, insist on accurate language or adding supporting statements/examples within the amendment that outlines the intent.

griff312
05-10-2018, 02:50 PM
No, it sounds like you and Sam both like to help the company find their way out of a box they put themselves into. Donít tell them how to manage and donít sell your coworkers down the road. Have you considered any management positions.

Quick history lesson. Puerto Rico had upgrades at least 6 months shorter than the jet back in the day bc people didnít want to go to the rock.

"Don't sell your coworkers down the road", son, if that isn't the most hypocritical statement I've read all day! So the whole pilot group should suffer, so that 30 or so whinny little Hillary voters don't have to work for thier pay, or upgrade as expected??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

llws
05-10-2018, 03:14 PM
No, it sounds like you and Sam both like to help the company find their way out of a box they put themselves into. Donít tell them how to manage and donít sell your coworkers down the road. Have you considered any management positions.

Quick history lesson. Puerto Rico had upgrades at least 6 months shorter than the jet back in the day bc people didnít want to go to the rock.

1) You fail to understand, that on some level, the box you speak of is one which we are also in. How we got there, we'd probably agree. How we get out, I'm okay with "helping" the company if it helps us.

2) The rock saw new-hire pilots headed that way even as they knew the ATR would go away. They were typed on a dying fleet and everyone knew it. It was embarrassing. But I don't know what your point is by bringing this up.

3) Even if anyone tried to tell them how to manage (we have), they wouldn't listen. No one is being sold down the road. If you actually think the 800-950hr FO timebuilding deal (for lack of a better term) is selling anyone down the road, you're clearly hyperfocused on absolute minutiae and short-term "QOL" for about 30 FOs.

SilentLurker
05-10-2018, 05:00 PM
Iím just not hip to the idea that we are ok with abrogating seniority and itís benefits. Who is anyone to take away my contractual right to bid rsv when staffing is good sit at home?

Our current ďRsvĒcontractual rights suck anyways.

Bigpimppilot
05-10-2018, 05:27 PM
"Don't sell your coworkers down the road", son, if that isn't the most hypocritical statement I've read all day! So the whole pilot group should suffer, so that 30 or so whinny little Hillary voters don't have to work for thier pay, or upgrade as expected??? :confused: :confused: :confused:


Well pops Iím not your son and those whippersnappers almost outnumber us on the top of the list. You can choose to denegrate them and take away their qol but you have to be ready for the swing of the pendulum

v1rotate88
05-10-2018, 05:45 PM
Well pops I’m not your son and those whippersnappers almost outnumber us on the top of the list. You can choose to denegrate them and take away their qol but you have to be ready for the swing of the pendulum

Hahahahaha. Swing of the pendulum GTFOH. Seniority is life son. "If you ain't first, you're last". If you were hired as a protected pilot you wouldnt have these problems.

griff312
05-10-2018, 09:01 PM
Well pops Iím not your son and those whippersnappers almost outnumber us on the top of the list. You can choose to denegrate them and take away their qol but you have to be ready for the swing of the pendulum

I'm not denegrating anyone there, Bigdaddy, you're missing the point. They can bid reserve and fly as little as they want, as long as it's wasn't hurting the rest of the pilot group. But now it is! The company needs them to upgrade. Thier refusal to do so, while CA seats are severily understaffed hurts the whole pilot group. I illustrated in another post that the company was going to "get thiers" one way or another. If the pilots refuse to cooperate and do thier job, then we all end up with another "pre-assigned RAP" type unilateral move by the company, where everyone is punished and no one gains. (Refer to that post, if you don't understand how pre-assigned RAPS came about). Envoy WILL get someone to fill those seats, period. You think they'd just drop Tens of Millions of dollars in revenue seat miles, just because xx amount of people don't want to upgrade? Those left seats have to be filled with somebody, and they will be filled with the unfortunate ones that just happen to fall at the bottom of the seniority list. That's the way seniority works, not just at Envoy, but at any airline. You know that.
Pendilum swing??? The pendilum has swung and hit all of us, several times. Some of us more than others. It sucks, and I don't wish that striking blow on anyone. At least this time it was padded. Some take it better than others. Some of us weathered the blows, others decided to move on. The choice is thiers.

Bigpimppilot
05-11-2018, 04:16 AM
I'm not denegrating anyone there, Bigdaddy, you're missing the point. They can bid reserve and fly as little as they want, as long as it's wasn't hurting the rest of the pilot group. But now it is! The company needs them to upgrade. Thier refusal to do so, while CA seats are severily understaffed hurts the whole pilot group. I illustrated in another post that the company was going to "get thiers" one way or another. If the pilots refuse to cooperate and do thier job, then we all end up with another "pre-assigned RAP" type unilateral move by the company, where everyone is punished and no one gains. (Refer to that post, if you don't understand how pre-assigned RAPS came about). Envoy WILL get someone to fill those seats, period. You think they'd just drop Tens of Millions of dollars in revenue seat miles, just because xx amount of people don't want to upgrade? Those left seats have to be filled with somebody, and they will be filled with the unfortunate ones that just happen to fall at the bottom of the seniority list. That's the way seniority works, not just at Envoy, but at any airline. You know that.
Pendilum swing??? The pendilum has swung and hit all of us, several times. Some of us more than others. It sucks, and I don't wish that striking blow on anyone. At least this time it was padded. Some take it better than others. Some of us weathered the blows, others decided to move on. The choice is thiers.

Would it change your opinion if you knew I was a protected pilot and not a millennial. What Iím trying to say is that if the less informed guys from the last 2 years feel like you fu.ked them then they will have no emotional problem fu.cking you over later. Sam should be all over this issue with a follow up email explaining his thought process. What Iím trying to say is that this move has divided the group more. Even if you donít believe it should have

griff312
05-11-2018, 06:37 AM
Would it change your opinion if you knew I was a protected pilot and not a millennial. What Iím trying to say is that if the less informed guys from the last 2 years feel like you fu.ked them then they will have no emotional problem fu.cking you over later. Sam should be all over this issue with a follow up email explaining his thought process. What Iím trying to say is that this move has divided the group more. Even if you donít believe it should have

I DO agree with you there. The sad part here is that this is now fracturing the pilot group, like you said. "The Haves and the Have Not's". I agree, We're fighting amongst ourselves, where the <2 yr FO's feel that the PP's threw them under the bus, and we did NOT. Sam, or ALPA in general, would do well to explain the 'come abouts' of this LOA.
As far as trying to explain that this LOA only makes an even compromise, (and I hesitate to even say that...), we have tried to explain, (without sounding like an old codger complaining about their walk uphill both ways, barefoot in the snow), where we're coming from. And why the LOA, while not perfect, actually helps everyone, including them. But they don't want to hear it. They seem to only play the victim role.
If this continues, watch the company play the fractured pilot group against each other.
As a PP, you KNOW exactly what I'm talking about. So what do you suggest we, (PP's who are not MEC officers) do?

Bigpimppilot
05-11-2018, 08:07 AM
Perhaps not talking down to the bottom half of the list is a good start. Itís almost like the company knew the pilot group would be fractured by this. https://youtu.be/PyQuPILrBCk

https://youtu.be/PyQuPILrBCk

Aviatrx
05-11-2018, 08:18 AM
The group is not fractured. There are a hand full of vocal pilots that are unhappy. If you canít see that this is a win for everyone on property than I urge you to get involved with ALPA and be the change you wish to see. There will be more wins for us going forward. Times are good. Enjoy the ride. Unfortunately, in this business displacements are always a possibility, now you get A passes and unlimited hotels🙂

E175 Driver
05-11-2018, 12:17 PM
A12 'Positive' travel? To NCE? Why not A3 or even A1? Have fun getting bumped.

llws
05-11-2018, 02:07 PM
A12 'Positive' travel? To NCE? Why not A3 or even A1? Have fun getting bumped.

It's like giving some people a bag of gold bars, and they complain how heavy it is.
🤦🏻*♂️

Whiskey4
05-11-2018, 05:02 PM
A12 'Positive' travel? To NCE? Why not A3 or even A1? Have fun getting bumped.

You can get a confirmed seat. Once the seat is assigned youíre not getting bumped. Wait to the last minute? Youíre still a Revenue Standby vs. a Non-Rev. Yet you still complain??

NoValueAviator
05-11-2018, 06:07 PM
Someone explain the difference between A3 and A12 to me because I donít get it. As far as I can tell itís ďpositive space on an unsold seatĒ on both.

Inop2
05-11-2018, 06:10 PM
Third year captain pay for me is $69.68 for the pay band of the small RJ, and Iím an E75 captain. The pay band is real, yet not represented accurately on APC. Fairly misleading.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With bonuses a first year FO at Endeavor makes $6.00 /hour less than a 3rd year captain at Envoy?

highfarfast
05-11-2018, 06:25 PM
Someone explain the difference between A3 and A12 to me because I donít get it. As far as I can tell itís ďpositive space on an unsold seatĒ on both.

This was discussed previously in this thread. A12, as I was told to book A12 when I did home based TDY, ended up being more or less a high priority standby most of the time. As in, I would be waiting to see if I had a seat right up until the door closed... even if there were unsold seats when I checked in 24 hours before. So, better than D1 but worse than A3. Someone else in this thread has indicated there is another way to book A12 that is positive space but only on select flights. That method was unavailable to me. It's still unclear that to me if 'that method' will be available to those headed to LGA. In either case, I'd consider A3 a step up from A12.

highfarfast
05-11-2018, 06:30 PM
You can get a confirmed seat. Once the seat is assigned you’re not getting bumped. Wait to the last minute? You’re still a Revenue Standby vs. a Non-Rev. Yet you still complain??

While you're right about once you get a confirmed seat you're not getting bumped, good luck getting that confirmed seat. I was given instructions to book A12 with the HIGO command in FOS. VERY rarely got a confirmed seat in advance. Almost always standby. Got very tired of people telling me about my 'positive space privileges' that I never had.

EmbaeDriver
05-11-2018, 06:46 PM
Edv capt makes $90... we need more money!

llws
05-12-2018, 04:16 AM
While you're right about once you get a confirmed seat you're not getting bumped, good luck getting that confirmed seat. I was given instructions to book A12 with the HIGO command in FOS. VERY rarely got a confirmed seat in advance. Almost always standby. Got very tired of people telling me about my 'positive space privileges' that I never had.

If you don't get on, that's on the company. It's not like you're trying to JS to work and have to have 2 attempts and use a commuter policy. It's the same way home based TDY works.

I still don't understand how anyone can complain about this.

Whiskey4
05-12-2018, 04:41 AM
While you're right about once you get a confirmed seat you're not getting bumped, good luck getting that confirmed seat. I was given instructions to book A12 with the HIGO command in FOS. VERY rarely got a confirmed seat in advance. Almost always standby. Got very tired of people telling me about my 'positive space privileges' that I never had.

Definitely make sure you book as early as possible. I think A12s start ticketing up to 14 days in advance, but you should be able to put in the listing prior to that. There are limited e-seats on each flight and, per the Q1 2018 town hall, there are approximately 1,700 people traveling for AA/WO business on A-type passes every day. Hub to hub routes are always going to be tougher (especially from DFW since the e-seats will fill up quickly). I would imagine those commuting from places other than DFW will have more luck since they wonít be dealing with training center and HQ people.

NoValueAviator
05-12-2018, 06:37 AM
While you're right about once you get a confirmed seat you're not getting bumped, good luck getting that confirmed seat. I was given instructions to book A12 with the HIGO command in FOS. VERY rarely got a confirmed seat in advance. Almost always standby. Got very tired of people telling me about my 'positive space privileges' that I never had.

It sounds to me like you forgot to check-in. You can get denied boarding with any code other than A1 if you don't check in.

Otherwise, when you do check in it will assign you an available economy seat and hold it for you.

E175 Driver
05-12-2018, 08:47 AM
Again, why not A1 or at least A3???

Bigpimppilot
05-12-2018, 08:50 AM
Iím surprised by that question coming from you. Is the coolaid getting watered down around here?

v1rotate88
05-12-2018, 08:51 AM
Again, why not A1 or at least A3???

Because shut TFU, that's why. A12 or bust.

NoValueAviator
05-12-2018, 08:58 AM
Again, why not A1 or at least A3???

It essentially is A3. Works the exact same way as far as I can tell. There might be differences in who/what they'll bump you for, no one seems to know.

EmbaeDriver
05-12-2018, 09:32 AM
Because shut TFU, that's why. A12 or bust.

Exactly. People want also first class? Fkng damn it.

highfarfast
05-12-2018, 10:44 AM
It sounds to me like you forgot to check-in. You can get denied boarding with any code other than A1 if you don't check in.

Otherwise, when you do check in it will assign you an available economy seat and hold it for you.

Definately NOT the case.

llws
05-12-2018, 11:05 AM
Because shut TFU, that's why. A12 or bust.

Exactly!!!!

xxordxx
05-12-2018, 08:43 PM
Last month we sent 38 guys. With this agreement we are going to send a minimal of 29 ( RW sent his message when we didnít accept 30 and then he would only send 29) So Iím still trying to figure out the benefits of this LOA. :confused:

bigtime209
05-13-2018, 02:35 AM
Last month we sent 38 guys. With this agreement we are going to send a minimal of 29 ( RW sent his message when we didnít accept 30 and then he would only send 29) So Iím still trying to figure out the benefits of this LOA. :confused:

Lol...we didn't send 38 last month. There were 38 selections on 5/1 to go into the pool. In the past, some months they "select" less than 25 and some months they "select" more than 25. The selection number doesn't matter. What matters is how many bodies actually are sent over.

Whiskey4
05-13-2018, 04:30 AM
Again, why not A1 or at least A3???

AA would never agree to A1 due to the effect on revenue management. As a side item, APA would probably throw a fit about regional pilots getting ďmust ridesĒ for commuting.

A12 is the standard business travel pass for employees who travel for work. You are commuting...not deadheading. A12 is the appropriate pass classification for this travel purpose (actually, non-rev is normal so this would be considered a perk).

Of the many things people can complain about, Iím not sure this is one of them.

NoValueAviator
05-13-2018, 06:33 AM
I demand A+ passes (they'll throw the flight crew off to accommodate me).

SilentLurker
05-13-2018, 07:12 AM
ďSeek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood.Ē

Stephen Covey- 7 habits of Highly Effective People.


Great book and reading for personal development & character building. Many on here NEED to read that!

highfarfast
05-13-2018, 07:33 AM
AA would never agree to A1 due to the effect on revenue management. As a side item, APA would probably throw a fit about regional pilots getting ďmust ridesĒ for commuting.

A12 is the standard business travel pass for employees who travel for work. You are commuting...not deadheading. A12 is the appropriate pass classification for this travel purpose (actually, non-rev is normal so this would be considered a perk).

Of the many things people can complain about, Iím not sure this is one of them.

My comments weren't meant to be a complaint about the addition of A12. That of course is an improvement even as standby. I just wanted to point out that if we're still just doing A12 via HIGO like I was told to do when I did Home Based TDY, then it's not really positive space. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out there can be another way to book it where you can see which flights you can book positive space through the Travel Planner but that was not presented as an option to me back then. Hopefully it will be in the future.

FlyPurdue
05-13-2018, 08:03 AM
My comments weren't meant to be a complaint about the addition of A12. That of course is an improvement even as standby. I just wanted to point out that if we're still just doing A12 via HIGO like I was told to do when I did Home Based TDY, then it's not really positive space. Someone earlier in the thread pointed out there can be another way to book it where you can see which flights you can book positive space through the Travel Planner but that was not presented as an option to me back then. Hopefully it will be in the future.

I brought up booking A12s through the travel planner vs. HIGOA earlier in the thread. I heard back from the travel team, and they said they had not received guidance yet on how we are to book the travel, but said we could email them or the Envoy travel desk if we do not 'initially' get the required permissions to book A12s through NRTP.

Finding E-Space (confirmed space) should not be too difficult, especially more than 14 days out, but there will be some flights that it is never available, and you will have to be a revenue standby should we elect to take that flight. E-Space (A12s) works pretty well, but even as a manager at HDQ, it was still required that we travel for business as A12s.

The way I would proceed, is once the guidance is finalized on when we can start booking A12s for commuting...I would email the travel desk insensately to find out which flight have E-Space available, to the point of annoyance, such they give us that functionality. The way I see it, if we can book via HIGOA, there is no reason why they should not give us the same functionality in the NRTP.

yeahbutstill
05-19-2018, 05:25 AM
Not sure if it was answered before but do you still get retention bonus AND captain pay once you get the award? Or do they take the bonus away? If that's the case then they're taking your bonus money and giving it to you in a different way.

Pedro4President
05-19-2018, 05:42 AM
Not sure if it was answered before but do you still get retention bonus AND captain pay once you get the award? Or do they take the bonus away? If that's the case then they're taking your bonus money and giving it to you in a different way.

Trust me it's worth it.

The bonus is valued 27-50 dollars per day. Once you upgrade gets awarded then your pay increases and you get higher quality lines plus OT.

FlyPurdue
05-19-2018, 06:21 AM
It has been explained that April captain awards are not eligible for the captain pay, but what happens after the next vacancy award? I assume that many of us will not have had our FedRide yet, thus we will still be getting FO pay, despite other pilots (even potentially in our upgrade class) getting CA pay. This seems like a significant oversight in the language of the LOAs.

NoValueAviator
05-19-2018, 06:22 AM
Book in DECS, remember dept. date, flight nr. Import into travel planner, get PNR and remember to check in, put in AA app and pick seat.

havick206
05-19-2018, 06:30 AM
It has been explained that April captain awards are not eligible for the captain pay, but what happens after the next vacancy award? I assume that many of us will not have had our FedRide yet, thus we will still be getting FO pay, despite other pilots (even potentially in our upgrade class) getting CA pay. This seems like a significant oversight in the language of the LOAs.

April awards are getting withholding pay based on the way you bid for the April award. If you preference bid for CA you most likely will be getting withholding pay (CA rates backpay upon completion of IOE) from from around early April. If you proferred to displace then it would be from some time later than that in order or seniority.

Unfortunately there will always be some winners and losers with LOAís.

uavking
05-19-2018, 08:57 AM
April awards are getting withholding pay based on the way you bid for the April award. If you preference bid for CA you most likely will be getting withholding pay (CA rates backpay upon completion of IOE) from from around early April. If you proferred to displace then it would be from some time later than that in order or seniority.

Unfortunately there will always be some winners and losers with LOAís.

Where did this guidance come from?

in2deep
05-19-2018, 09:03 AM
A lot of butthurt coming from millenial FOs who haven't had to sit years on RSV, get no bonus, go through the ABCs in the school house, get furloughed or go through bankruptcy. Someone get them a cry closet. #HereIFlowNow.

Whatís your point? There are people at other companies doing the exact same job and getting treated much better. The only butthurt is coming from you. The industry has changed and Envoy needs to keep up. If you were in the same position has a new hire FO today, youíd feel the same. Sounds like youre jealous ;)

havick206
05-19-2018, 10:03 AM
Where did this guidance come from?

No guidance itís just happening as per the contract. Those from the March bid getting withholding pay were sent HI6ís.

SilentLurker
05-19-2018, 11:43 AM
No guidance itís just happening as per the contract. Those from the March bid getting withholding pay were sent HI6ís.



Reading the LOA again, does not say this. If itís there point it out please.

llws
05-19-2018, 12:00 PM
Whatís your point? There are people at other companies doing the exact same job and getting treated much better. The only butthurt is coming from you. The industry has changed and Envoy needs to keep up. If you were in the same position has a new hire FO today, youíd feel the same. Sounds like youre jealous ;)

His/her point is that while there is absolutely nothing wrong that new-hire FOs have it way better than the PPs did during their first half decade here, the complaining and lack of appreciation for that position that said new-hire is in, comes off as an aggrandized form of entitlement.

"The industry has changed". Now where have I heard that one before? Hint: Pinnacle.

By all means, let's fight for better pay and QOL. By all means, let's communicate frustrations regarding the lack of willingness to negotiate said improvements on the part of the company and/or AAG.

What gets intolerable is the incessant complaining (for complaining's sake) on the part of the new-hires directly to or in front of those here who have had it a hundred times worse. There will be no sympathy-- It's not "butthurt". It's an unwillingness to tolerate the whining. If you think things need to be improved, get involved with the process. Volunteer for a union position. LISTEN to those who are more experienced. ASK questions that will help improve all our lives. Appreciate what the PPs have been through, and they will appreciate that the current climate definitely calls for improvements in both the short and long term, for everyone on property.

As I've said before, no PP wants everyone to endure the same awful conditions as they've gone through. Improvements even at the new-hire level are still improvements and help the industry as a whole. But for god's sake, don't start the first conversation of a 4-day with a veteran CA you've never met by complaining about money, reserve, commuting, time to upgrade (it's too fast), etc.

We're glad the new guys are here, and more keep showing up. We just ask they extend the same courtesy to those who have endured everything from before and since the bankruptcy.

havick206
05-19-2018, 12:35 PM
Reading the LOA again, does not say this. If itís there point it out please.

Itís not in the loa. Anyone awarded CA prior to LOA signing the pay section of the LOA doesnít apply to them. Itís the standard withholding pay section in the CBA that applies for those awarded prior based on street CAís finishing IOE (that went to training after the dec17 bid closed) vs preference/proffer to displace in seniority order on a one for one basis.

The union are keeping track of those affected. Email your rep and the contract compliance committee to see where you sit in the queue for withholding.

Pedro4President
05-19-2018, 01:11 PM
His/her point is that while there is absolutely nothing wrong that new-hire FOs have it way better than the PPs did during their first half decade here, the complaining and lack of appreciation for that position that said new-hire is in, comes off as an aggrandized form of entitlement.

"The industry has changed". Now where have I heard that one before? Hint: Pinnacle.

By all means, let's fight for better pay and QOL. By all means, let's communicate frustrations regarding the lack of willingness to negotiate said improvements on the part of the company and/or AAG.

What gets intolerable is the incessant complaining (for complaining's sake) on the part of the new-hires directly to or in front of those here who have had it a hundred times worse. There will be no sympathy-- It's not "butthurt". It's an unwillingness to tolerate the whining. If you think things need to be improved, get involved with the process. Volunteer for a union position. LISTEN to those who are more experienced. ASK questions that will help improve all our lives. Appreciate what the PPs have been through, and they will appreciate that the current climate definitely calls for improvements in both the short and long term, for everyone on property.

As I've said before, no PP wants everyone to endure the same awful conditions as they've gone through. Improvements even at the new-hire level are still improvements and help the industry as a whole. But for god's sake, don't start the first conversation of a 4-day with a veteran CA you've never met by complaining about money, reserve, commuting, time to upgrade (it's too fast), etc.

We're glad the new guys are here, and more keep showing up. We just ask they extend the same courtesy to those who have endured everything from before and since the bankruptcy.

The funny/sad thing is that pretty much EVERY single benefit has come to those hired after pilots hire in Spring 2016. ONE concession was forced upon them a limited number of those pilots and for a limited time. When I hear an FO complain about being on reserve for two months I don't know what to say. Do I give fake sympathy or just laugh. When I get an FO that's new that just got a composite or a hard line for the first time after being on reserve for a short time I am genuinely happy for them.

Two rules should be followed by NH. Don't complain about your short sting on reserve. Don't complain that PP are sacrificing your QOL for flow because in reality those PP are directly responsible for the gains you received but they did not.

llws
05-19-2018, 02:53 PM
The funny/sad thing is that pretty much EVERY single benefit has come to those hired after pilots hire in Spring 2016. ONE concession was forced upon them a limited number of those pilots and for a limited time. When I hear an FO complain about being on reserve for two months I don't know what to say. Do I give fake sympathy or just laugh. When I get an FO that's new that just got a composite or a hard line for the first time after being on reserve for a short time I am genuinely happy for them.

Two rules should be followed by NH. Don't complain about your short sting on reserve. Don't complain that PP are sacrificing your QOL for flow because in reality those PP are directly responsible for the gains you received but they did not.

Very well said.



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1