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View Full Version : Alaska slowing growth...


Excargodog
05-09-2018, 03:28 PM
Today on Yahoo:

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/alaska-airlines-delays-aircraft-deliveries-132500672.html

An excerpt:

Alaska Air (NYSE: ALK) has experienced severe margin compression over the past several quarters, due to a combination of rising fuel costs, stiff competition, and merger pains following its 2016 acquisition of Virgin America. However, management is laser-focused on rebuilding the company's profitability. Toward that end, Alaska Airlines is set to reduce its growth rate until it starts hitting its margin and return on invested capital goals.

Last quarter, Alaska Airlines began taking concrete steps to align its fleet plan with its new target of 4% annual growth and $750 million of annual capital expenditures for 2019 and 2020. The carrier restructured its orders with Boeing (NYSE: BA), Airbus (NASDAQOTH: EADSY), and Embraer (NYSE: ERJ) to better fit its projected needs.


IamAlaska
05-10-2018, 09:38 PM
I have heard through the grapevine that we are losing about $1Million every day. This has less to do with rising fuel prices and more to do with a failing business model. The VX purchase and forced drop of many of our bread and butter codeshare agreements (Delta, American, etc) have been disasterous. Couple that with our providing feed for, and enabling, carriers like Emerates...which the big boys despise and that makes us a prime target to be taken out. I would guess the big boys smell blood in the water and will continue to add pressure. But look on the bright side, Brad and Ben got their huge bonuses for creating this mess.

ELAC321
05-10-2018, 09:50 PM
I have heard through the grapevine that we are losing about $1Million every day. This has less to do with rising fuel prices and more to do with a failing business model. The VX purchase and forced drop of many of our bread and butter codeshare agreements (Delta, American, etc) have been disasterous. Couple that with our providing feed for, and enabling, carriers like Emerates...which the big boys despise and that makes us a prime target to be taken out. I would guess the big boys smell blood in the water and will continue to add pressure. But look on the bright side, Brad and Ben got their huge bonuses for creating this mess.

We made 18mil after tax Q1 check your grapevine


MusicPilot
05-11-2018, 01:51 AM
We made 18mil after tax Q1 check your grapevine

Way to go for a #5 carrier. B6 made $85 million. I’m no math expert, but these numbers are no where close together. 🤔

Bugaboo
05-11-2018, 03:37 AM
Way to go for a #5 carrier. B6 made $85 million. I’m no math expert, but these numbers are no where close together. 🤔

No one was comparing income....just countering the “sky is falling losing a million dollars a day”.

MusicPilot
05-11-2018, 05:40 AM
No one was comparing income....just countering the “sky is falling losing a million dollars a day”.

I wasn’t banging on your comment. I just wanted to point out that even at #5 and buying VX that AS is still struggling to compete.

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 06:19 AM
Way to go for a #5 carrier. B6 made $85 million. I’m no math expert, but these numbers are no where close together. 🤔

How much would b6 have made if their pilots were making the same hourly rate as you, had 15% match, and your medical, oh and their FA’s made the same as Ours. You clearly are no math expert!
I will help you out because there is 0% chance you could figure this out on your own. Those 4 improvements would cost b6 roughly 73 million a quarter. No pilot at b6 is happy, please take your math and go and work there.

IamAlaska
05-11-2018, 07:13 AM
We made 18mil after tax Q1 check your grapevine

Say what you want. Those were Q1 results. We are now mid way thru Q2.

MusicPilot
05-11-2018, 09:34 AM
How much would b6 have made if their pilots were making the same hourly rate as you, had 15% match, and your medical, oh and their FA’s made the same as Ours. You clearly are no math expert!
I will help you out because there is 0% chance you could figure this out on your own. Those 4 improvements would cost b6 roughly 73 million a quarter. No pilot at b6 is happy, please take your math and go and work there.


Oh look. A super expert and a koolaid drinker. Don’t need to take my math somewhere else. You probably think the VX pilots were the only one winning with the merger too. Pounding sand sounds like the best advice I can give you.

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 09:50 AM
Oh look. A super expert and a koolaid drinker. Don’t need to take my math somewhere else. You probably think the VX pilots were the only one winning with the merger too. Pounding sand sounds like the best advice I can give you.

Hey buddy,
Read my statement with a Russian accent and you will find it hilarious. It sounds like this, “Y O U A R E A N I D I O T”

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 09:51 AM
I can’t stop laughing it’s so funny!

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 09:54 AM
Say what you want. Those were Q1 results. We are now mid way thru Q2.

Uhm this is why pilots with 10 million in career expectations can end up broke. Learn how to read financial statements, Alaska will make approximately $640 mil in 2018

MusicPilot
05-11-2018, 10:45 AM
Hey buddy,
Read my statement with a Russian accent and you will find it hilarious. It sounds like this, “Y O U A R E A N I D I O T”

Oooh. That’s a good one!

EskimoJoe
05-11-2018, 01:03 PM
You probably think the VX pilots were the only one winning with the merger .

Are you suggesting that this statement is NOT true?

MusicPilot
05-11-2018, 01:04 PM
Are you suggesting that this statement is NOT true?


It’s ok if you disagree with me. I can’t force you to be right.

Barneyrubble
05-11-2018, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicPilot https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/alaska/113561-alaska-slowing-growth-post2591639.html#post2591639)
You probably think the VX pilots were the only one winning with the merger .


Are you suggesting that this statement is NOT true?

Yep.
I'm losing my base.
I'm losing my seniority.
I'm losing PBS for a lousy bidding system.
I'm losing QOL with inefficient trips.
I'm losing non rev status.

EskimoJoe
05-11-2018, 06:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MusicPilot https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/alaska/113561-alaska-slowing-growth-post2591639.html#post2591639)
You probably think the VX pilots were the only one winning with the merger .




Yep.
I'm losing my base.
I'm losing my seniority.
I'm losing PBS for a lousy bidding system.
I'm losing QOL with inefficient trips.
I'm losing non rev status.

I think if VX'ers are honest with themselves, They always realized that there were only two ways VX would end up. BK or Buyout. That's it. I think your gamble paid off, but large changes were always going to be in your future. At least this is on the Good side of the ledger...BK, not so much.

WutFace
05-11-2018, 06:53 PM
I think if VX'ers are honest with themselves, They always realized that there were only two ways VX would end up. BK or Buyout. That's it. I think your gamble paid off, but large changes were always going to be in your future. At least this is on the Good side of the ledger...BK, not so much.

I would be very cautious throwing judgement around so freely. Alaska's not in a great position at the moment either. To be honest, they look like they are in a far worse position than Virgin was at the time of buyout.

The AS sales model in its current form isn't scalable. You have regional loyalty, and that's it. You don't have the route network of the Big 3. You don't have the national brand loyalty like Southwest. And you don't offer premium services like Jetblue or the former Virgin America. I don't know how AS sells tickets outside of the PNW.

Virgin, on the other hand, could have been the JetBlue of the west. They had a product that was scalable and could have reached niche markets nationwide. To write VX off as an inevitably failed airline from the start is arrogant and ignorant. But I've come to expect nothing less.

IamAlaska
05-11-2018, 06:55 PM
Uhm this is why pilots with 10 million in career expectations can end up broke. Learn how to read financial statements, Alaska will make approximately $640 mil in 2018

I do read the financial statements and have listened to every single quarterly earnings call for the past several years. Let’s put this into perspective, considering Alaska signs my paycheck every month, I have as much of a vested interest in the success of the company as anyone. Let’s hope you are right and I am wrong on this one.

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 07:02 PM
[QUOTE=IamAlaska;2592057]I do read the financial statements and have listened to every single quarterly earnings call for the past several years. Let’s put this into perspective, considering Alaska signs my paycheck every month, I have as much of a vested interest in the success of the company as anyone. Let’s hope you are right and I am wrong on this one.

Consensus Q2 is $1.76 per share
With nearly 30,000 shares of ALK, I really know where the I’s are dotted and T’s are crossed. This stock is poised to explode over the next 36 mos. Do yourself a favor and participate in the espp and buy!

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 08:03 PM
I would be very cautious throwing judgement around so freely. Alaska's not in a great position at the moment either. To be honest, they look like they are in a far worse position than Virgin was at the time of buyout.

The AS sales model in its current form isn't scalable. You have regional loyalty, and that's it. You don't have the route network of the Big 3. You don't have the national brand loyalty like Southwest. And you don't offer premium services like Jetblue or the former Virgin America. I don't know how AS sells tickets outside of the PNW.

Virgin, on the other hand, could have been the JetBlue of the west. They had a product that was scalable and could have reached niche markets nationwide. To write VX off as an inevitably failed airline from the start is arrogant and ignorant. But I've come to expect nothing less.

This sir is a clueless rant. You really have no understanding of even the most basic concepts of airline economics. VX lost 300 mil in 10 years. I don’t even know where to start. I do understand your frustration though, change is hard. Your thoughts and beliefs are fabricated from scattered emotions and not solid economic data.

WutFace
05-11-2018, 08:15 PM
This sir is a clueless rant. You really have no understanding of even the most basic concepts of airline economics. VX lost 300 mil in 10 years. I don’t even know where to start. I do understand your frustration though, change is hard. Your thoughts and beliefs are fabricated from scattered emotions and not solid economic data.

I'd love for you to enlighten me with a point-by-point assessment of how AS sells tickets outside of OR, WA, or AK.
What VX did or didn't do in its infancy is irrelevant. What matters is that it was breathing on its own when the plug was pulled.
Yes, I have a very specific point of view. But from this viewpoint, I don't see how AS survives with all the room they are ceding to SWA in CA and Delta moving into SEA.

I'd love to catch up with you when we're in AA indoc in 5 years. We can debrief our speculations.

atooraya
05-11-2018, 09:48 PM
This sir is a clueless rant. You really have no understanding of even the most basic concepts of airline economics. VX lost 300 mil in 10 years. I don’t even know where to start. I do understand your frustration though, change is hard. Your thoughts and beliefs are fabricated from scattered emotions and not solid economic data.

Tesla lost $2B last year. Those employees would be lucky if Chrysler bought them.

Seriously dude, you’re better off eating your moldy crew meal and circle jerking in your 737 cockpit than coming out and talking financial sheets and not understanding how much capital kept getting dumped into Virgin. All this while most of your profits came because your group didn’t have a spine to get scope while most of your growth is being flown by RJs.

Excargodog
05-11-2018, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=IamAlaska;2592057]I do read the financial statements and have listened to every single quarterly earnings call for the past several years. Let’s put this into perspective, considering Alaska signs my paycheck every month, I have as much of a vested interest in the success of the company as anyone. Let’s hope you are right and I am wrong on this one.

Consensus Q2 is $1.76 per share
With nearly 30,000 shares of ALK, I really know where the I’s are dotted and T’s are crossed. This stock is poised to explode over the next 36 mos. Do yourself a favor and participate in the espp and buy!

You have 30,000 shares.... $1.8 million in a single company? And the one you work for at that? If your financial manager told you that was a good idea, fire him. If it was your own idea - get a financial manager. One who can spell 'diversify.'

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 10:33 PM
Tesla lost $2B last year. Those employees would be lucky if Chrysler bought them.

Seriously dude, you’re better off eating your moldy crew meal and circle jerking in your 737 cockpit than coming out and talking financial sheets and not understanding how much capital kept getting dumped into Virgin. All this while most of your profits came because your group didn’t have a spine to get scope while most of your growth is being flown by RJs.

Ok what? Huh really
Tesla, I own a Tesla X. I love the car. You think Elon is selling to Chrysler. Your on drugs, be careful you don’t get caught.
It is remarkable what TESLA is building, the solvency of the business plan is still the big unknown, the product however is fantastic. They need to keep raising significant capital which is a concern. The E production needs to increase significantly to drive down cost, and increase revenue. PE is pretty high though, yikes. I would never bet against Elon though. Tell me you are trying to compare TESLA and all if it’s technology to Virgin America. Oh I am laughing to hard now, oh it hurts, are you kidding me. You took a couple of gates, a couple of jets, put stickers on them and sold tickets. Your right the stories are identical. What do you think the intellectual property of Tesla is worth? How about VX, maybe a buck.
Dude buy index funds only, you are clueless, but a romantic! Come back to the big boy table when you are flying turbo fans solely on battery power.

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 10:37 PM
[QUOTE=OTZeagle1;2592059]

You have 30,000 shares.... $1.8 million in a single company? And the one you work for at that? If your financial manager told you that was a good idea, fire him. If it was your own idea - get a financial manager. One who can spell 'diversify.'

I have a net worth of a little more then 7. I feel really good about 1.8 in ALK. Thanks though, talk to you broker, maybe you can get me a pick. Let me guess you just got 10 shares of AAPL at 180. How cute!

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 10:45 PM
[QUOTE=WutFace;2592097]I'd love for you to enlighten me with a point-by-point assessment of how AS sells tickets outside of OR, WA, or AK.
What VX did or didn't do in its infancy is irrelevant. What matters is that it was breathing on its own when the plug was pulled.
Yes, I have a very specific point of view. But from this viewpoint, I don't see how AS survives with all the room they are ceding to SWA in CA and Delta moving into SEA.

I'd love to catch up with you when we're in AA indoc in 5 years. We can debrief our speculations.[/QUOTE

Alaska is doing quite well advancing market share in California. Hitting all the targets set. Alaska is expected to pull roughly 7 and a quarter in 2019 and 8 and a half in 2020. Pretty shady numbers I know for you, an astute business extraordinaire. Ask yourself how many other S&P500 companies are expected to turn similar profit margins over the next 3 years. Never mind let’s go back to the company on life support, taking itty bitty breaths on its own. Great idea! Dude buy Gold!

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 11:08 PM
[QUOTE=WutFace;2592097]I'd love for you to enlighten me with a point-by-point assessment of how AS sells tickets outside of OR, WA, or AK.

Uhm, the Internet. I am almost nervous to ask. Do you know what that is?

mking84
05-11-2018, 11:14 PM
How much would b6 have made if their pilots were making the same hourly rate as you, had 15% match, and your medical, oh and their FA’s made the same as Ours. You clearly are no math expert!
I will help you out because there is 0% chance you could figure this out on your own. Those 4 improvements would cost b6 roughly 73 million a quarter. No pilot at b6 is happy, please take your math and go and work there.

Oh its the pilots fault......jesus

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 11:21 PM
Oh its the pilots fault......jesus

Wow
No no no

My point is, I wouldn’t be bragging about profits a company makes built solely on the backs of labor.

LineGrinder400
05-11-2018, 11:25 PM
[QUOTE=Excargodog;2592130]

I have a net worth of a little more then 7. I feel really good about 1.8 in ALK. Thanks though, talk to you broker, maybe you can get me a pick. Let me guess you just got 10 shares of AAPL at 180. How cute!

One can't help but wonder what brings you into a crummy little coffee shop like this? -Seinfeld

OTZeagle1
05-11-2018, 11:33 PM
[QUOTE=OTZeagle1;2592140]

One can't help but wonder what brings you into a crummy little coffee shop like this? -Seinfeld

Dude,
That ain’t all that much coin. I am still punching a time clock, ain’t I. But I made every penny, nothing was given to me. Put your head down keep driving. Pretend you don’t live in America, you don’t want to surprise yourself and make my little nest egg look like chump change!

MusicPilot
05-12-2018, 03:36 AM
Wow
No no no

My point is, I wouldn’t be bragging about profits a company makes built solely on the backs of labor.

You do realize that’s how AS has and still is making their profits right?

SilentLurker
05-12-2018, 04:01 AM
No one was comparing income....just countering the “sky is falling losing a million dollars a day”.


Bugaboo if oil prices go up any further don’t you think that would be a loss in the next quarter?

Packrat
05-12-2018, 04:46 AM
[QUOTE=LineGrinder400;2592156]

Dude,
That ain’t all that much coin. I am still punching a time clock, ain’t I. But I made every penny, nothing was given to me. Put your head down keep driving. Pretend you don’t live in America, you don’t want to surprise yourself and make my little nest egg look like chump change!

Punching the time clock in management. Line pilots don't make enough over a career at AS to make that much even if they're investment geniuses.

OTZeagle1
05-12-2018, 06:29 AM
[QUOTE=OTZeagle1;2592159]

Punching the time clock in management. Line pilots don't make enough over a career at AS to make that much even if they're investment geniuses.

You know what’s funny.. I made more then half of that pile while pulling your gear up. See you were so happy being a Captain, you didn’t have to do anything. I had to figure out how to survive, my pay sucked. I had bills to pay two kids and a wife. Well you know what, fear of poverty really paid off for me, even as you gregariously bragged to me about your 185k a year. Life is funny that way my friend, you probably would have had a hard time finding enough scratch to pay my taxes the last three years.

OTZeagle1
05-12-2018, 06:32 AM
Bugaboo if oil prices go up any further don’t you think that would be a loss in the next quarter?

No ALK is in a very strong position, oil would really have skyrocket for a lose in Q2, margin would obviously decrease though.

Excargodog
05-12-2018, 06:34 AM
[QUOTE=Excargodog;2592130]

I have a net worth of a little more then 7. I feel really good about 1.8 in ALK. Thanks though, talk to you broker, maybe you can get me a pick. Let me guess you just got 10 shares of AAPL at 180. How cute!

Undoubtedly you are financially brilliant. Probably just as financially brilliant as other pilots who have overweighted their retirement with company stock. Like those TWA pilots, and Pan Am, and Branuff and Continental. Oh yes, clearly too bright to need to follow common sense.

OTZeagle1
05-12-2018, 06:34 AM
You do realize that’s how AS has and still is making their profits right?

That’s apples to oranges. Some percentage yes, but I make 259 my JetBlue friends make 219. My retirement well there is no comparison and the medical at JetBlue is shockingly bad!

OTZeagle1
05-12-2018, 07:05 AM
[QUOTE=OTZeagle1;2592140]

Undoubtedly you are financially brilliant. Probably just as financially brilliant as other pilots who have overweighted their retirement with company stock. Like those TWA pilots, and Pan Am, and Branuff and Continental. Oh yes, clearly too bright to need to follow common sense.

Fortunate yes, lucky probably, driven for sure. Brilliant no way. Following only the road everyone else was on would have left me with 750k to a mil right now.

Galaxy5
05-12-2018, 12:07 PM
Fortunate yes, lucky probably, driven for sure. Brilliant no way. Following only the road everyone else was on would have left me with 750k to a mil right now.

It’s amazing what you’ve accomplished without a college education, imagine what you could have done if you’d set your sights higher.

NavyFlyer
05-12-2018, 12:57 PM
[QUOTE=Packrat;2592228]



You know what’s funny.. I made more then half of that pile while pulling your gear up. See you were so happy being a Captain, you didn’t have to do anything. I had to figure out how to survive, my pay sucked. I had bills to pay two kids and a wife. Well you know what, fear of poverty really paid off for me, even as you gregariously bragged to me about your 185k a year. Life is funny that way my friend, you probably would have had a hard time finding enough scratch to pay my taxes the last three years.



OTZeagle, You’re coming across as a douche. Stop bragging about your retirement accounts, net worth, and standing on the seniority list.

You have obviously done well and enjoy your quality of life and relative position on the list. But that doesn’t mean others haven’t suffered, or have had it as good. You don’t owe them anything, and they aren’t necessarily looking for sympathy. But empathy and UNDERSTANDING go a long way.

Listen, think, and then post. Your posts are all about how good you have it, without understanding that young entrants from VX have had (and will continue to have) a different career path than you (whether its schedule, living in base, etc).

I thought AS hired nice guys until I read a few threads where you’ve replied and given all of your brothers/sisters a bad name.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

450knotOffice
05-12-2018, 05:03 PM
From a complete outsiders point of view, one with friends from both sides of your house, what I’ve seen is an overwhelming majority of the VX pilots on this forum do almost nothing but complain about how awful Alaska is, and how the Alaska pilots are somehow weak yes men who’ve allowed “Angle Lake” to walk all over the pilots. It’s been very obvious to me that the Alaska pilots are simply becoming weary of the constant complaining and finger pointing from the VX pilots.

Big E 757
05-12-2018, 05:36 PM
[QUOTE=IamAlaska;2592057]I do read the financial statements and have listened to every single quarterly earnings call for the past several years. Let’s put this into perspective, considering Alaska signs my paycheck every month, I have as much of a vested interest in the success of the company as anyone. Let’s hope you are right and I am wrong on this one.

Consensus Q2 is $1.76 per share
With nearly 30,000 shares of ALK, I really know where the I’s are dotted and T’s are crossed. This stock is poised to explode over the next 36 mos. Do yourself a favor and participate in the espp and buy!

If you have $1,800,000 of your net worth tied up in the stock of the company you work for, you’re an idiot. I hope, for your own sake, you’re just a liar.

mking84
05-12-2018, 07:10 PM
Wow
No no no

My point is, I wouldn’t be bragging about profits a company makes built solely on the backs of labor.

And that’s what B6 does? B6 can more than afford to pay its pilots and looks like they finally will.

ForeverJunior
05-12-2018, 07:20 PM
And that’s what B6 does? B6 can more than afford to pay its pilots and looks like they finally will.

After B6 gets their contract, we'll be #6.

OCCP
05-12-2018, 07:40 PM
#6 with zero scope, junk work rules and no growth...so happy to be at Alaska[emoji849]

Yetifan
05-12-2018, 10:38 PM
What's the word on this fleet meeting in Orange County? Let me guess, mainline frames being dropped for Skypest 175's?

Just a Lurker
05-13-2018, 06:59 AM
Second hand info... they basically said the 321 is the best a/c in the fleet by far and they’d like to squeeze even more seats into it. Talks with Airbus and Boeing continuing, and those could lead anywhere, so keep standing by to stand by.

OCCP
05-13-2018, 08:32 AM
Was it a fiesta?

ShyGuy
05-13-2018, 09:21 AM
What fleet meeting?

OCCP
05-13-2018, 10:05 AM
The ‘fleetplan fiesta’ is what they called it. I think it was 2 days ago in SNA of all places

ShyGuy
05-13-2018, 10:22 AM
Fleetplan Fiesta? Are we getting a bunch of Ford's? May as well, nearly all their sedans are going away next year.

Yetifan
05-13-2018, 01:05 PM
I'm still waiting to hear what this "big news" Mea was referring to... Alaska guys need some good news from what I've been hearing!

Bugaboo
05-13-2018, 01:15 PM
Bugaboo if oil prices go up any further don’t you think that would be a loss in the next quarter?
No, not in this quarter or next for that matter. But 4Q18 and 1Q19 could be rough.

Klsytakesit
05-14-2018, 02:40 AM
Alaska Airlines standard plan for negotiation is to lose money going into negotiations. So, they will by whatever means necessary. And, as usual, we bumble along. 32.5% of us( undesirables, no degree, no pedigree, no legacy) will b!tch and use up sick-leave and do what we can to display our displeasure. The remaining 67.5%{desireables, degrees, pedigrees, legacy brats, military 2nd careerists} will either be wide-eyed in fear or take 2 predictable routes. The time value of money route or the “we need to help them because we are Losing Money route. Contract 2021.5 will pass minus any real benefit and the leadership will remind us that these were tough times to negotiate and we are fortunate that we did not go backwards....And we get to be based in PDX and SEA and our culture is worth it. Have watched it 3 1/2 times now in 19 yrs.....

Saltlife85
05-14-2018, 05:42 AM
Alaska Airlines standard plan for negotiation is to lose money going into negotiations. So, they will by whatever means necessary. And, as usual, we bumble along. 32.5% of us( undesirables, no degree, no pedigree, no legacy) will b!tch and use up sick-leave and do what we can to display our displeasure. The remaining 67.5%{desireables, degrees, pedigrees, legacy brats, military 2nd careerists} will either be wide-eyed in fear or take 2 predictable routes. The time value of money route or the “we need to help them because we are Losing Money route. Contract 2021.5 will pass minus any real benefit and the leadership will remind us that these were tough times to negotiate and we are fortunate that we did not go backwards....And we get to be based in PDX and SEA and our culture is worth it. Have watched it 3 1/2 times now in 19 yrs.....

What if you have a degree and “pedigree”, (whatever the hell that means) your automatically grouped in to the “undesirable” class? Just because you voice your displeasure? I love your optimism on 2021.5 though! I personally don’t think we’ll make it that long before another M&A.

Bugaboo
05-14-2018, 07:27 AM
Alaska Airlines standard plan for negotiation is to lose money going into negotiations. So, they will by whatever means necessary. And, as usual, we bumble along. 32.5% of us( undesirables, no degree, no pedigree, no legacy) will b!tch and use up sick-leave and do what we can to display our displeasure. The remaining 67.5%{desireables, degrees, pedigrees, legacy brats, military 2nd careerists} will either be wide-eyed in fear or take 2 predictable routes. The time value of money route or the “we need to help them because we are Losing Money route. Contract 2021.5 will pass minus any real benefit and the leadership will remind us that these were tough times to negotiate and we are fortunate that we did not go backwards....And we get to be based in PDX and SEA and our culture is worth it. Have watched it 3 1/2 times now in 19 yrs.....

Your saying that they will purposely loose money due to upcoming contract negotiations? A NYSE company, with BOD, and stockholders to answer to, will intentionally loose money to look financially challenged before labor negotiations?

MusicPilot
05-14-2018, 07:38 AM
Your saying that they will purposely loose money due to upcoming contract negotiations? A NYSE company, with BOD, and stockholders to answer to, will intentionally loose money to look financially challenged before labor negotiations?


Well, you can use QX as an example and what happened last summer. You don’t think they didn’t know what they were doing? Beef up an operation knowing you can’t staff it. Looked good on paper and projected earnings until they couldn’t staff the flying. You don’t think they knew that their pay and work rules were subpar?

Bugaboo
05-14-2018, 09:09 AM
Well, you can use QX as an example and what happened last summer. You don’t think they didn’t know what they were doing? Beef up an operation knowing you can’t staff it. Looked good on paper and projected earnings until they couldn’t staff the flying. You don’t think they knew that their pay and work rules were subpar?
Actually I do think they didnt know what they were doing.

Baradium
05-14-2018, 03:36 PM
Well, you can use QX as an example and what happened last summer. You don’t think they didn’t know what they were doing? Beef up an operation knowing you can’t staff it. Looked good on paper and projected earnings until they couldn’t staff the flying. You don’t think they knew that their pay and work rules were subpar?

QX used to be the destination regional. They may very well have been late in figuring out that it is no longer the case.

Remember when?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRq0O4lnsKE

Ispeakjive
05-14-2018, 04:33 PM
Your saying that they will purposely loose money due to upcoming contract negotiations? A NYSE company, with BOD, and stockholders to answer to, will intentionally loose money to look financially challenged before labor negotiations?

Yes. I believe that SWA's only unprofitable quarter/year was heading into negotiations.

DangleDunlops
05-16-2018, 09:29 PM
Your saying that they will purposely loose money due to upcoming contract negotiations? A NYSE company, with BOD, and stockholders to answer to, will intentionally loose money to look financially challenged before labor negotiations?

You’re = you are

A public service message from a fellow pilot.

full of luv
05-17-2018, 05:54 AM
You’re = you are

A public service message from a fellow pilot.

What about loose= not tight
Lose= not win or misplace

Those are misused all the time online though.

Beta82
05-17-2018, 08:05 AM
How about then and than. One looks like a complete moron when they can't get those right.

Then - Usually has to do with time. I was acquired by Alaska Airlines THEN I got a job at Delta.

Than - Comparing two things. Our pay rates are less THAN most other operators.

Than vs. then - Grammarist (http://grammarist.com/usage/than-then/)

dawgdriver
05-17-2018, 08:37 AM
Grammar lessons aside, can we please get back to Alaska's slowing growth?

Pogey Bait
05-17-2018, 01:13 PM
How about then and than. One looks like a complete moron when they can't get those right.

Then - Usually has to do with time. I was acquired by Alaska Airlines THEN I got a job at Delta.

Than - Comparing two things. Our pay rates are less THAN most other operators.

Than vs. then - Grammarist (http://grammarist.com/usage/than-then/)

Is this a Delta Air Lines thread.....or what? Quit being *****es.

Bugaboo
05-17-2018, 02:05 PM
[QUOTE=DangleDunlops;2595654]You’re = you are

A public service message from a fellow pilot.[/QUOTE

Pointed out by the guy who obviously got his lunch taken and a$$ kicked to many times growing up.
Thanks man....now pull your undies out your crack and go cry to mommy.

IFlyNFish
05-17-2018, 11:11 PM
What if you have a degree and “pedigree”, (whatever the hell that means) your automatically grouped in to the “undesirable” class? Just because you voice your displeasure? I love your optimism on 2021.5 though! I personally don’t think we’ll make it that long before another M&A.



THIS!!!!!!

DangleDunlops
05-18-2018, 08:52 AM
Grammar lessons aside, can we please get back to Alaska's slowing growth?

Why don’t we just talk about PBS, like every other thread.

DangleDunlops
05-18-2018, 08:58 AM
[QUOTE=DangleDunlops;2595654]You’re = you are

A public service message from a fellow pilot.[/QUOTE

Pointed out by the guy who obviously got his lunch taken and a$$ kicked to many times growing up.
Thanks man....now pull your undies out your crack and go cry to mommy.

to many times.

ShyGuy
05-18-2018, 09:50 PM
People keep saying another merger, but even then it would be 3 yrs before anyone can cross bid bases. 3 yrs is a long time in the industry, anything could change in that time period.

Apr 2016 announcement, Sept 2018 final list, first bid effective date ~March/April 2019 = 3 yrs to bid another airline's base after merger announcement.

snackysmores
05-18-2018, 09:53 PM
Grammar lessons aside, can we please get back to Alaska's slowing growth?

Seriously, talk about killing moral.

Stinger6
05-22-2018, 10:04 PM
Seriously, talk about killing moral.
You did that on purpose, right?

full of luv
05-23-2018, 06:26 AM
Seriously, talk about killing moral.

I once attended a 5th grade spelling bee where one of the contestants was read morale (by the principle who was the moderator), had a sentence with morale in it read to them, but when they spelled it as morale, the moderator said, "wrong it was supposed to be moral" at which point most of the audience gasped, but the bee administrators didn't even catch their own mistake.

Excargodog
05-23-2018, 06:32 AM
?.. (by the principle who was the moderator), ....


You did that on purpose, right?

Sardonic humor?
:rolleyes:

You still have time to edit if you hurry....

KnockKnock
05-23-2018, 06:53 AM
Just read the Seattle Times article regarding AS’ slowing growth. Any truth to the extremely high failure rates at QX? One pilot is quoted as saying it’s as high as 70%! The company refutes this and says it’s in the high teens. If anywhere close to true, this would be shocking.

webecheck
05-23-2018, 07:08 AM
I once attended a 5th grade spelling bee where one of the contestants was read morale (by the principle who was the moderator), had a sentence with morale in it read to them, but when they spelled it as morale, the moderator said, "wrong it was supposed to be moral" at which point most of the audience gasped, but the bee administrators didn't even catch their own mistake.

Classic reply. Love it.

webecheck
05-23-2018, 07:10 AM
You did that on purpose, right?

Sardonic humor?
:rolleyes:

You still have time to edit if you hurry....

And this one is even better.

Only a pilot would critique someone and make the same mistake within the critique. Hilarious.

DashAviator
05-23-2018, 08:06 AM
After looking at the most recent fleet plan (posted on our company web site), it appears that the big story here could be the "regionalization" of Alaska's flying. In the mid-2000's Horizon operated 21 regional jets for Alaska. By the end of 2018, the combined total (between Horizon and SkyWest) will be 58. Management calls it "fleet optimization". Alaska pilots need to see this for what it is - outsourcing.

Disclaimer: I flunked spelling, and work at Alaska's red-headed stepchild.

OCCP
05-23-2018, 09:06 AM
Just read the Seattle Times article regarding AS’ slowing growth. Any truth to the extremely high failure rates at QX? One pilot is quoted as saying it’s as high as 70%! The company refutes this and says it’s in the high teens. If anywhere close to true, this would be shocking.



Wow 70% is extremely high if true. That does sound a little exaggerated though. I would bet it’s down around 15%.

Snuffaluffagus
05-23-2018, 09:11 AM
The 70% 'failure' rate could be counting in additional sims, an oral exam failed, failed a procedures training event, etc. not necessarily a type ride.

KnockKnock
05-23-2018, 10:35 AM
The 70% 'failure' rate could be counting in additional sims, an oral exam failed, failed a procedures training event, etc. not necessarily a type ride.
Must be because I can’t see how any company could maintain a workforce if only 30% were making it through training. I also wonder if this was one small new hire class that had a bunch not make it through?

Excargodog
05-23-2018, 11:17 AM
Must be because I can’t see how any company could maintain a workforce if only 30% were making it through training. I also wonder if this was one small new hire class that had a bunch not make it through?

That has been hashed and rehashed on the Horizon thread. It would appear they went through a rough patch but have largely recovered.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/horizon-air/113317-q400-failues.html

KnockKnock
05-23-2018, 11:30 AM
That has been hashed and rehashed on the Horizon thread. It would appear they went through a rough patch but have largely recovered.

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/horizon-air/113317-q400-failues.html
Guess the Times ran with shock value instead of investigation. Hell, it worked on me!

TransWorld
05-23-2018, 03:16 PM
Guess the Times ran with shock value instead of investigation. Hell, it worked on me!

“WORLD ENDED TODAY - Film at eleven.”

There are some good reporters out there, but for too many here is the reality - If you had little interest nor time to do in-depth investigation, but had two quotes:

“Commercial Pilots are trained and work had to delivery passengers safely to their destination.” and

“Pilots cut corners and put passengers’ lives at mortal risk of imminent death every day, purely for their reckless pleasures.”

Which has more shock value? Which would you lead with?

Noob2015
05-26-2018, 08:35 AM
The 70% "failure" rate doesn't necessarily mean wash-out. At least 40% of the pilots of the regional I worked had to repeat at least one MFTD, sim or stage check, but very few failed the course.

OCCP
05-26-2018, 02:57 PM
I think a failure is a little different than an FTD repeat

KnockKnock
06-30-2018, 06:05 AM
Just read over on the SW boards that they are scaling back their projected growth and hiring. I wonder if all their pilots immediately freak out and think the sky is falling or accept that this industry is in a constant cycle and there are forever going to be ups and downs?? It looks like oil, capacity, and some other factors are playing a role. Gonna be hard to "eat Alaska's lunch", as some on here have said, if they're slowing down as well.

OCCP
06-30-2018, 06:29 AM
They’re still a better company all the way around. At least they have a vision, and a history of growth.

KnockKnock
06-30-2018, 06:38 AM
They’re still a better company all the way around. At least they have a vision, and a history of growth.
But, but, but, they’re slowing that growth.... Clearly they’re going out of business. ��

KnockKnock
06-30-2018, 09:37 AM
Anyone hear DAL is also pumping the brakes on hiring for a bit? If so, this is a clear sign they're going out of business and most likely will be consumed by another airline within the next year. Sounds like the whole industry is in freefall and the end is near!!! SWA should have kept more of Air Tran's vibe and culture. That would have prevented this slow down. DAL should have invested in marketing their brand better. Everyone I talk to thinks the only place they fly in and out of was the Mississippi delta.

av8or
06-30-2018, 01:13 PM
Anyone hear DAL is also pumping the brakes on hiring for a bit? If so, this is a clear sign they're going out of business and most likely will be consumed by another airline within the next year. Sounds like the whole industry is in freefall and the end is near!!! SWA should have kept more of Air Tran's vibe and culture. That would have prevented this slow down. DAL should have invested in marketing their brand better. Everyone I talk to thinks the only place they fly in and out of was the Mississippi delta.

Come on man.... seriously? Delta slowing growth = what? That they only tell half as many Alaska codeshare partners to sever ties with Alaska? Or that it’s not yet fully committed to the 797 while moving forward with its 100 A321Neos in 2020. Or that it’s only going to launch one non-stop flight from SEA to IND while launching nonstop MSP to Seoul.

Tapping the brakes on freight train isn’t the same as tapping the brakes on a Prius.

Beech Dude
06-30-2018, 01:18 PM
Some folks will just never understand sarcasm :D

KnockKnock
06-30-2018, 01:34 PM
Some folks will just never understand sarcasm :D
No doubt, it’s a hard thing to pick up on and that’s why I’ve petitioned the mods for a special “sarcasm” emoji so as to not confuse “those guys”... ;)

OTZeagle1
06-30-2018, 02:03 PM
I hear, no joke, Alaska is talking to three carriers, I am pretty confident one is SWA. I guess no one knows what will come of it but maybe it’s time for a new merger assessment. I am pretty sure almost positive, we are being shopped!

OCCP
06-30-2018, 02:19 PM
I hope you’re right

DelTacoBowl
06-30-2018, 04:12 PM
It would appear, per the RST SWA FB page, that SWA has "paused" hiring as well.


Come on man.... seriously? Delta slowing growth = what? That they only tell half as many Alaska codeshare partners to sever ties with Alaska? Or that it’s not yet fully committed to the 797 while moving forward with its 100 A321Neos in 2020. Or that it’s only going to launch one non-stop flight from SEA to IND while launching nonstop MSP to Seoul.

Tapping the brakes on freight train isn’t the same as tapping the brakes on a Prius.

av8or
06-30-2018, 04:18 PM
It would appear, per the RST SWA FB page, that SWA has "paused" hiring as well.

I noticed that as well. 🧐

Costanza
06-30-2018, 07:54 PM
Airlines have been doing pretty well in the low interest rate low oil price environment. Oil prices are up over 50% in the last year. Interest rates are gradually going up too (airlines are capital intensive and need capital to buy airplanes). A lot of economists think we are due for an economic slowdown. Given the above it seems smart for SWA and ALK to slow down growth a bit and evaluate.

Costanza
06-30-2018, 08:08 PM
I hear, no joke, Alaska is talking to three carriers, I am pretty confident one is SWA. I guess no one knows what will come of it but maybe it’s time for a new merger assessment. I am pretty sure almost positive, we are being shopped!

Wonder what three airlines would be interested with a market cap of over 7 billion. SWA and American make sense I guess. There is also the very small possibility of a non airline buyout like Warren Buffett or Amazon. Amazon bought Whole Foods last year out of the blue. Flying their employees around out of SEA and HQ2 and/or getting an airline certificate and growing the cargo side? Stranger things have happened like drone delivery plans.

Reactivity
07-01-2018, 02:51 PM
Flying their employees around out of SEA and HQ2 and/or getting an airline certificate and growing the cargo side? Stranger things have happened like drone delivery plans.

I seriously doubt they'd spend $7B to save a buck moving employees around. Even at a ridiculous price of $1000 a ticket, they could buy 7 million tickets with that kind of money. I can't imagine that they would move that many people in 100 years. And if they want an airline certificate for their cargo operation, they could spend a lot less to acquire one of the companies they're already using, where they have warrants for a significant fraction of the stock of those companies.

Excargodog
07-01-2018, 07:18 PM
Wonder what three airlines would be interested with a market cap of over 7 billion. SWA and American make sense I guess. There is also the very small possibility of a non airline buyout like Warren Buffett or Amazon. Amazon bought Whole Foods last year out of the blue. Flying their employees around out of SEA and HQ2 and/or getting an airline certificate and growing the cargo side? Stranger things have happened like drone delivery plans.




Amazon just made a big entry into online pharmacy through a purchase. It would not be beyond imagining for them to buy Alaska - or even just Horizon - and sell tickets just online. Nor would scope be an issue for them. I could see them partnering up with EmbraerBoeing or BombardierAirbus and running jumbo RJ routes the length and breadth of the continental US. for both pax and cargo.

Beta82
07-01-2018, 07:33 PM
Wonder what three airlines would be interested with a market cap of over 7 billion. SWA and American make sense I guess. There is also the very small possibility of a non airline buyout like Warren Buffett or Amazon. Amazon bought Whole Foods last year out of the blue. Flying their employees around out of SEA and HQ2 and/or getting an airline certificate and growing the cargo side? Stranger things have happened like drone delivery plans.

No need to respond or in engage ZOTeagle or whatever the **** his name is, he’s a troll.

ShyGuy
07-01-2018, 07:50 PM
I really wonder what the draw is for anyone wanting to come to this place. Numbers don't lie. ~2,950 pilot group with ~625 retirements combined for 10 yrs from 2018-2027. Assuming you start now as #2950, 10 yrs later you'd be about 2,300. Out of how many pilots by then? Who knows, but there are plenty of old sayings like "2000 pilots by 2000." Best guess is in 10 yrs this group may be 3,500-4000 pilots and that's being generous. 2,300 out of ~3750? That's 61% overall and barely CA and that's if you're lucky. If you come you'll be a FO for a Long time and I do mean Long with a capital L. Or you can look at AA, DL, and UAs retirement numbers for the next 10 yrs and make an informed decision.

The only thing that would change the above is another merger/acquisition.

OCCP
07-01-2018, 08:41 PM
For the new guys, Alaska airlines = career suicide

Ispeakjive
07-01-2018, 11:41 PM
I hear, no joke, Alaska is talking to three carriers, I am pretty confident one is SWA. I guess no one knows what will come of it but maybe it’s time for a new merger assessment. I am pretty sure almost positive, we are being shopped!

It's not true until Mea25000 confirms it. :rolleyes:

Reactivity
07-02-2018, 01:21 PM
Or you can look at AA, DL, and UAs retirement numbers for the next 10 yrs and make an informed decision.

Because everybody knows that all you need to do to get hired by the airline of your choice is throw an application at them, and the interview is just a formality.

Flitestar
07-02-2018, 02:01 PM
Because everybody knows that all you need to do to get hired by the airline of your choice is throw an application at them, and the interview is just a formality.

This ^^^^^

Too many around here assume that the phones are ringing off the hook from the big 4 with just putting an app in. It comes in handy to try to persuade others not to go to AS with this rhetoric, but pretty unrealistic to expect someone to pass “because the big 4 are right there waitin for me”...

It just doesn’t work that way.

echelon
07-02-2018, 02:24 PM
This ^^^^^

Too many around here assume that the phones are ringing off the hook from the big 4 with just putting an app in. It comes in handy to try to persuade others not to go to AS with this rhetoric, but pretty unrealistic to expect someone to pass “because the big 4 are right there waitin for me”...

It just doesn’t work that way.

The decision in question isn't necessarily whether or not to come to AS, it's whether or not to stay.

Hang out here and make $90/126/hr instead of $70/hr at a regional? Sure. Stay here with no scope or mainline growth and garbage scheduling if someone else calls? Yeah, it's gonna be a no for me dawg.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 02:33 PM
Because everybody knows that all you need to do to get hired by the airline of your choice is throw an application at them, and the interview is just a formality.

This ^^^^^

Too many around here assume that the phones are ringing off the hook from the big 4 with just putting an app in. It comes in handy to try to persuade others not to go to AS with this rhetoric, but pretty unrealistic to expect someone to pass “because the big 4 are right there waitin for me”...

It just doesn’t work that way.


I never said it was easy. AS isn't even hiring right now. If one has applied to the big 3 and AS calls then they can come here and bide the time until one of the big 3 calls.

OTZeagle1
07-02-2018, 04:10 PM
Yeah this place sucks! What a house of cards. This place is the worst “major” you could work for in the US. The only people that will stay are the losers that can’t get hired at the big 4!

OTZeagle1
07-02-2018, 04:18 PM
It's not true until Mea25000 confirms it. :rolleyes:

That guy I am sure is an idiot. 🤨. I bet he is a 12 year old aviation geek that makes up stuff just to **** jive off. Actually he/she has been pretty quiet, hey Mea25000, what going on, we all want to know.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 04:20 PM
Yeah this place sucks! What a house of cards. This place is the worst “major” you could work for in the US. The only people that will stay are the losers that can’t get hired at the big 4!

No. Staying here is a function of age. Reality is given their age far too many pilots here have too much time vested here to start over again. If you’re still in your 20s or 30s here, you’d be silly not to have an app at the big 3.

And yes as of right now compared to the big 6, this is the “worse” place you could work at, compared to AA/DL/UA/SW/FDX/UPS. And soon to be jetBlue. All 7, their overall compensation and work rule package surpasses what AS has. But hey, you get your favorite zip code home base so there’s that. The AS contract reflects sell outs for PNW Home basing.

KnockKnock
07-02-2018, 04:47 PM
No. Staying here is a function of age. Reality is given their age far too many pilots here have too much time vested here to start over again. If you’re still in your 20s or 30s here, you’d be silly not to have an app at the big 3.

And yes as of right now compared to the big 6, this is the “worse” place you could work at, compared to AA/DL/UA/SW/FDX/UPS. And soon to be jetBlue. All 7, their overall compensation and work rule package surpasses what AS has. But hey, you get your favorite zip code home base so there’s that. The AS contract reflects sell outs for PNW Home basing.
And you did the same at VX to have the JFK base??? It’s funny that all this “AS is a terrible place and VX was so much better”, rhetoric, only comes from VX guys. However AS guys and every single OAL pilot I’ve EVER talked to, don’t see this acquisition the same way. Would I be correct in saying the VX “agreement” reflected your willingness to overlook the deficiencies in pay, retirement, vacation accrual, lack of CBA etc. so you could live in your favorite zip code? Where exactly would you have placed VX in that group of 7? You made more than Frontier so maybe you’d have come in at #9/10? Look at the bright side, you jumped 3 spots :) I wish you luck in you employment elsewhere.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 05:09 PM
And you did the same at VX to have the JFK base??? It’s funny that all this “AS is a terrible place and VX was so much better”, rhetoric, only comes from VX guys. However AS guys and every single OAL pilot I’ve EVER talked to, don’t see this acquisition the same way. Would I be correct in saying the VX “agreement” reflected your willingness to overlook the deficiencies in pay, retirement, vacation accrual, lack of CBA etc. so you could live in your favorite zip code? Where exactly would you have placed VX in that group of 7? You made more than Frontier so maybe you’d have come in at #9/10? Look at the bright side, you jumped 3 spots :) I wish you luck in you employment elsewhere.

Yeah nice try, doesn’t work. When I was hired SFO was the only base. I commuted 6 months before moving to base. LAX became a base and then later New York at the end of 2013. I already moved twice for this job, once when hired into SFO and then once more when NY opened. I didn’t choose this place because I somehow magically guessed what bases would open after being hired. Very few people chose to come to VX because of its base offering. As opposed to AS which is notoriously known to “prefer” PNW zip code applicants.

As for VX, we voted in ALPA very quickly in 2015 considering the airline started flying in 2007. Our first contract would have come, just like JetBlue did with their first ALPA contract. Anyway that’s going off on acenarios that can’t play out. I know what AS pilots think of this acquisition. I like your assertion of OAL pilot opinions on this acquisition. What do you mean “don’t see this acquisition the same way.” Why beat around the bush, just say what you want. It’s not about how you see this acquisition. It’s about your (and now our) current contract being sub-par and surpassed by ALL 7 other legacy/mainline carriers.

Slim6890
07-02-2018, 05:27 PM
I have been at Ak for less than a year and I am trying to make a jump. Management already told us we won't ever be the highest paid and I thank them for that. (At least they were honest) AK is not a bad place to be but it won't ever be the highest paid. All the other major airlines have slowed down their hiring for summer so I don't expect to be call till late fall.

KnockKnock
07-02-2018, 05:46 PM
Yeah nice try, doesn’t work. When I was hired SFO was the only base. I commuted 6 months before moving to base. LAX became a base and then later New York at the end of 2013. I already moved twice for this job, once when hired into SFO and then once more when NY opened. I didn’t choose this place because I somehow magically guessed what bases would open after being hired. Very few people chose to come to VX because of its base offering. As opposed to AS which is notoriously known to “prefer” PNW zip code applicants.

As for VX, we voted in ALPA very quickly in 2015 considering the airline started flying in 2007. Our first contract would have come, just like JetBlue did with their first ALPA contract. Anyway that’s going off on acenarios that can’t play out. I know what AS pilots think of this acquisition. I like your assertion of OAL pilot opinions on this acquisition. What do you mean “don’t see this acquisition the same way.” Why beat around the bush, just say what you want. It’s not about how you see this acquisition. It’s about your (and now our) current contract being sub-par and surpassed by ALL 7 other legacy/mainline carriers.
So if not base, then what brought you to VX? It wasn’t the pay, it wasn’t the retirement, it wasn’t the air tight scope, it wasn’t the CBA... There had to be some reason you willingly overlooked the things you are now so adamant about. Was it just the first place that called? Since when is living in base NOT a major factor in where someone goes for employment. Living in base IS a huge QOL determinant. You guys just like to use it now as a rally cry for your unhappiness. Look around, there is an industry wide slow down going. The 10 yr cycle has probably run it’s course and may start downward. AS is far from THE PREMIER AIRLINE buuuuuut so was VX. The fact you voted in ALPA means nothing. VX lagged far behind the industry for a decade and from the moment you interviewed there, you were apparently ok with that. However, you stand on a soap box and tell others they’re decisions, no matter how identical to yours, are wrong.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 07:22 PM
So if not base, then what brought you to VX? It wasn’t the pay, it wasn’t the retirement, it wasn’t the air tight scope, it wasn’t the CBA... There had to be some reason you willingly overlooked the things you are now so adamant about. Was it just the first place that called? Since when is living in base NOT a major factor in where someone goes for employment. Living in base IS a huge QOL determinant. You guys just like to use it now as a rally cry for your unhappiness. Look around, there is an industry wide slow down going. The 10 yr cycle has probably run it’s course and may start downward. AS is far from THE PREMIER AIRLINE buuuuuut so was VX. The fact you voted in ALPA means nothing. VX lagged far behind the industry for a decade and from the moment you interviewed there, you were apparently ok with that. However, you stand on a soap box and tell others they’re decisions, no matter how identical to yours, are wrong.

When I was hired the legacies were not at that moment and some had pilots on furlough. The only ones hiring were VX, Spirit, and jetBlue. That was the environment then. You are correct about living in base as a huge QOL factor. But the difference is of all the airlines, AS in particular has always used that as a drawing factor to use PNW basing (a zero cost item) as a reason to keep offering substandard work rules.

It's not a soapbox. The difference is actually trying to do something about it as a pilot group. That's where you are wrong on your comment about voting in ALPA means nothing. "Lagged the industry for a decade" is not in context, VX had only been flying for 9 years when it was bought. The difference though is that pilots here had tried and fought to improve things and that culminated in getting ALPA on property in what was one of the fastest ALPA induction for a new startup in history. Yes VX pay and retirement was subpar, but there were many work rules that were actually quite good. Many of those rules are even better than the current AS contract today and the VX side will lose those starting October. You keep pointing the finger at VX, but the reality is in its short 9 year flying history the pilots took the right steps to move VX in a good direction in terms of pay, retirement, scheduling, and QOL. You start that by having one unified voice, and ALPA was it.

The difference is for you there is 85 years history and all you have to do is look back and see where you are today. AS is the ONLY legacy airline not to have scope. Why? It's quite simple. Because you (and your group) have never put a strong value and truly demanded scope. You settled for a few more dollars every single time. Contract 2013 was basically the "$200/hr contract." That was the starting hourly rate number for 2013 and increase forward. It was your goal and it was obtained at the expense of other things. It would seem the group only cared about hourly payrate. Your scope is non-existent and your work rules are absolutely terrible. You work more days on average than most other legacy airlines. But the message you've sent is that all of that is okay because you drive to work in the PNW and don't care about anything except the hourly payrate.

Instead, your message should be one of unifying and something along the lines of hang in there, lets fight together in 2020 for a new contract.

KnockKnock
07-02-2018, 08:49 PM
When I was hired the legacies were not at that moment and some had pilots on furlough. The only ones hiring were VX, Spirit, and jetBlue. That was the environment then. You are correct about living in base as a huge QOL factor. But the difference is of all the airlines, AS in particular has always used that as a drawing factor to use PNW basing (a zero cost item) as a reason to keep offering substandard work rules.

It's not a soapbox. The difference is actually trying to do something about it as a pilot group. That's where you are wrong on your comment about voting in ALPA means nothing. "Lagged the industry for a decade" is not in context, VX had only been flying for 9 years when it was bought. The difference though is that pilots here had tried and fought to improve things and that culminated in getting ALPA on property in what was one of the fastest ALPA induction for a new startup in history. Yes VX pay and retirement was subpar, but there were many work rules that were actually quite good. Many of those rules are even better than the current AS contract today and the VX side will lose those starting October. You keep pointing the finger at VX, but the reality is in its short 9 year flying history the pilots took the right steps to move VX in a good direction in terms of pay, retirement, scheduling, and QOL. You start that by having one unified voice, and ALPA was it.

The difference is for you there is 85 years history and all you have to do is look back and see where you are today. AS is the ONLY legacy airline not to have scope. Why? It's quite simple. Because you (and your group) have never put a strong value and truly demanded scope. You settled for a few more dollars every single time. Contract 2013 was basically the "$200/hr contract." That was the starting hourly rate number for 2013 and increase forward. It was your goal and it was obtained at the expense of other things. It would seem the group only cared about hourly payrate. Your scope is non-existent and your work rules are absolutely terrible. You work more days on average than most other legacy airlines. But the message you've sent is that all of that is okay because you drive to work in the PNW and don't care about anything except the hourly payrate.

Instead, your message should be one of unifying and something along the lines of hang in there, lets fight together in 2020 for a new contract.
Did you know that VX would be voting in ALPA in 2015, when you were hired? Of course not, no more than you knew what bases would open but you still found it an acceptable place to go regardless of, not having a CBA, not having scope, lower than average pay and lower than average retirement. So you apparently took a few concessions for the work rules yet you chastise those who, as you say, have taken concessions for the QOL of living in base. You can’t say that voting in ALPA means VX would have been better off. There’s no way of knowing how that would have turned out. It’s taken JB 3 years to negotiate their first contract. Frontier is still getting the sh!t kicked out of them and they too are ALPA. When I got hired, AS top pay was within $3 of DAL top 737 pay at the life of the contract. 401K was within 2.5% of DAL. I did know that scope was extremely limited but I also knew the contract was amenable in April 2018. Having spoken to many AS pilots at the time, I thought scope was something we would absolutely be fighting for and was one of the first things many of us in new hire talked about improving. So yeah, I found it acceptable to come to AS so I could drive to work and improve my QOL. So in order to validate any of your soap box rhetoric, please write me a list of ways VX raised the bar for the industry. That list is gonna be shorter then your Uniform ties. Believe me Shy, my message IS to hang there and fight together for a better contract. I just find it absurd that pilots coming form anytime less than THE #1 position in the Industry, should refer to others as sell outs. Especially when they themselves could be perceived as having “sold out”.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 09:07 PM
Did you know that VX would be voting in ALPA in 2015, when you were hired? Of course not, no more than you knew what bases would open but you still found it an acceptable place to go regardless of, not having a CBA, not having scope, lower than average pay and lower than average retirement. So you apparently took a few concessions for the work rules yet you chastise those who, as you say, have taken concessions for the QOL of living in base.
The difference is doing something positive about it. Just because one accepts a job here doesn't mean they can't do something about it to make it better. My critique to you is because you haven't just been around 9 yrs flying as an airline. It's been decades.




You can’t say that voting in ALPA means VX would have been better off. There’s no way of knowing how that would have turned out. It’s taken JB 3 years to negotiate their first contract. Frontier is still getting the sh!t kicked out of them and they too are ALPA.
Yes, so it's also been 3 yrs here at VX since ALPA was voted in. We'll never know how it would have been without the merger but 3 yrs is about what one would expect for a first contract. Not sure how long Frontier has been ALPA, but if I recall it was after jetBlue and Virgin voted them in. Even without a contract, VX was better with ALPA on property than it was without ALPA.


When I got hired, AS top pay was within $3 of DAL top 737 pay at the life of the contract. 401K was within 2.5% of DAL. I did know that scope was extremely limited but I also knew the contract was amenable in April 2018. Having spoken to many AS pilots at the time, I thought scope was something we would absolutely be fighting for and was one of the first things many of us in new hire talked about improving.

There you go again about the payrate. No scope, absolutely weak work rules. Your comparison to Delta is not absolute dollar for dollar because Delta work rules are far better, and that "within $3/hr" is very inaccurate considering their work rules and ability to white slip, yellow slip, green slip, etc. Their work rules nets another amount of pay raise that AS doesn't have.


So yeah, I found it acceptable to come to AS so I could drive to work and improve my QOL. So in order to validate any of your soap box rhetoric, please write me a list of ways VX raised the bar for the industry. That list is gonna be shorter then your Uniform ties. Believe me Shy, my message IS to hang there and fight together for a better contract. I just find it absurd that pilots coming form anytime less than THE #1 position in the Industry, should refer to others as sell outs. Especially when they themselves could be perceived as having “sold out”.

Take my comments in context. I'm not faulting you for your payrates and retirements. But absolutely, being a predominantly live in base airline you have sold out on scope and work rules. That's just the reality which is reflected in the AS contract today.

DangleDunlops
07-02-2018, 09:34 PM
...Instead, your message should be one of unifying and something along the lines of hang in there, lets fight together in 2020 for a new contract.

52% of Pilots at Alaska airlines are based outside of SEA and PDX. The PNW vote is not the majority anymore.

ShyGuy
07-02-2018, 09:51 PM
52% of Pilots at Alaska airlines are based outside of SEA and PDX. The PNW vote is not the majority anymore.

True. But keep in mind base rep votes; closing JFK took out crucial votes. In the end the MEC will be from the combined pilot group and the bases of ANC, SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX (overlap base).

DangleDunlops
07-03-2018, 07:28 AM
True. But keep in mind base rep votes; closing JFK took out crucial votes. In the end the MEC will be from the combined pilot group and the bases of ANC, SEA, PDX, SFO, and LAX (overlap base).

Closing JFK also gave control of LA to ex-VDR pilots. You gained much more than you lost.

In September, VDR pilots will outnumber ASA in LAX by 14%(82) with 18% of the pilots on the Boeing being too new to vote.

av8or
07-03-2018, 09:22 AM
So, if I may, y’all are both right in a lot of ways. But the term “sell out” as opposed to “settle” is where it gets contentious.

A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.

Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.

Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.

The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)

But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.

My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.

Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.

That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.

Just my opinion. Flame away.

Reactivity
07-03-2018, 10:26 AM
I have been at Ak for less than a year and I am trying to make a jump. Management already told us we won't ever be the highest paid and I thank them for that.

They weren't telling you anything you shouldn't have already known.

Slim6890
07-04-2018, 12:34 AM
They weren't telling you anything you shouldn't have already known.

You're 100% right but I guess I was in denial. That was my wake up call & motivation to start updating my apps.

KnockKnock
07-04-2018, 07:45 AM
I have been at Ak for less than a year and I am trying to make a jump. Management already told us we won't ever be the highest paid and I thank them for that. (At least they were honest) AK is not a bad place to be but it won't ever be the highest paid. All the other major airlines have slowed down their hiring for summer so I don't expect to be call till late fall.
This doesn’t mean we won’t fight for pay equal to or better than the going 737/320 rates in 2020. Management will try to lower your expectations as an early negotiating tactic. They will pound it into your head that you are 5th place at best. They will try to shape the new hires into, docile, well behaved pilots. It’s up to us how much we get paid because it’s up to us to DEMAND we get paid the going rate. I say you kindly file managements suggestions about what we deserve into the small plastic file cabinet hanging from the back of the center console.

busbusbaby
07-04-2018, 08:44 AM
So, if I may, y’all are both right in a lot of ways. But the term “sell out” as opposed to “settle” is where it gets contentious.

A lot of VX pilots went there when the industry was in a horrible place. Many were furloughed from other carriers and needed a job. Many were long time ALPA before Virgin. It wasn’t a great job, but they made it work and with Branson attached it had possibility.
They worked, paid dues and were into the organizing phase when Alaska came along. Which meant whatever their ideal contract, their priorities were, went down the drain. Their priorities prob weren’t the same as Alaska pilots priorities, but now their wagon is hitched to that horse, along with all the years they invested. They didn’t sell out, they settled, for a time and for the future, a future they might not realize because of the purchase.

Alaska pilots also didn’t sell out. They settled for pay and convenience mostly because right or wrong they weren’t worried about scope, their “work rule” priority was “live in base and drive to work” and reserve rules didn’t matter because, honestly, if you “live in base and drive to work” reserve isn’t that bad. (I don’t live in base btw) Alaska didn’t sell out, they settled.

Neither group’s situation was “top tier” but but both pilot groups had learned to live with their situation and were looking and working to move things forward.

The problem is that now, one group of pilots (VX) has one set of priorities that are not at all reflected in their “new contract” at Alaska, they can’t do anything about it till negotiations start and they are concerned that the pre-purchase Alaska pilot’s answer to their concerns are:
1. You got bought. We live in base. We don’t commute. So move or suck it up. 2. Our work rules only suck if you don’t live in base. (See bullet point 1.)
3. You got a big raise you didn’t have to negotiate for and you fly for a “legacy” carrier. That should offset any heartache for a loss of convenience and lifestyle. If it doesn’t, either leave or again... see bullet point 1.
4. We’re Alaska. This is what we do. It’s who we are. We don’t worry about scope. We don’t worry about reserve or schedules. We don’t get any compensation for a 24hr layover in Hawaii but, it’s fun to be in Hawaii. (It almost never rains there and it’s warm.)

But the big concern is that the pre-purchase pilots will simply say, “hey Virgin pilots, we hear your concerns, those are fine, we’ll try, but if it comes down to fighting for those things, you’re outa luck. You can adapt your priorities to ours, leave or be miserable. Your choice.

My HOPE is that the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. I hope that our current MEC leadership and pilots can have some empathy for both former VX pilots and future Alaska pilots not from PNW, Cali or Alaska. I think if the message from the current MEC and Alaska pilots is, “welcome aboard, sorry bout all the changes, we weren’t expecting you. Don’t worry, we know we’re a bigger family now and we’ll fight for your interests too.” THEN, “in the mean time, hope the pay raise is helping offset some of the changes”., then we can come together and address address a management team that says, “sure, we’ll sacrifice our relationship with the pilots”.... in unity.

Or, we can just say to the VX pilots, “you’re lucky to be here. here’s your money. we dont care about what your “work rules/lifestyle/commuting/reserve priorities” were.” Change or leave. I got what I want/need.

That’d be pretty hypocritical. Cause that is the EXACT same message as Ben M’s to the Alaska pilot group as a whole.

Just my opinion. Flame away.

Very well said !!!!!!

fucius
07-04-2018, 10:27 AM
This doesn’t mean we won’t fight for pay equal to or better than the going 737/320 rates in 2020. Management will try to lower your expectations as an early negotiating tactic. They will pound it into your head that you are 5th place at best. They will try to shape the new hires into, docile, well behaved pilots. It’s up to us how much we get paid because it’s up to us to DEMAND we get paid the going rate. I say you kindly file managements suggestions about what we deserve into the small plastic file cabinet hanging from the back of the center console.It's not the pay rates, it's the work rules (scheduling, soft pay) that are killing us

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

KnockKnock
07-04-2018, 11:17 AM
It's not the pay rates, it's the work rules (scheduling, soft pay) that are killing us

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk
I’m aware but according to Slim6890, they are something weighing heavily on his mind and a reason why he’s looking elsewhere. So, as with everything in the contract, I’m telling him that the value placed on us by management can be filed where it belongs. In the trash. We’re gonna get exactly what we demand. If we don’t get what we want, we clearly didn’t want it bad enough....

Slim6890
07-04-2018, 01:51 PM
I’m aware but according to Slim6890, they are something weighing heavily on his mind and a reason why he’s looking elsewhere. So, as with everything in the contract, I’m telling him that the value placed on us by management can be filed where it belongs. In the trash. We’re gonna get exactly what we demand. If we don’t get what we want, we clearly didn’t want it bad enough....
Knock knock I get it trust me. I will fight for better compensation but realistically every FO under 4 years should be trying to move on to the majors. This is not my dream job just a stepping stone to check the 121 box.

ShyGuy
07-04-2018, 02:17 PM
This doesn’t mean we won’t fight for pay equal to or better than the going 737/320 rates in 2020. Management will try to lower your expectations as an early negotiating tactic. They will pound it into your head that you are 5th place at best. They will try to shape the new hires into, docile, well behaved pilots. It’s up to us how much we get paid because it’s up to us to DEMAND we get paid the going rate. I say you kindly file managements suggestions about what we deserve into the small plastic file cabinet hanging from the back of the center console.

All I read was pay and payrate going forward. No mention of scope and work rules. Hopefully this mentality can be adjusted for 2020 negotiations.

KnockKnock
07-04-2018, 03:21 PM
All I read was pay and payrate going forward. No mention of scope and work rules. Hopefully this mentality can be adjusted for 2020 negotiations.
I know you’re better than this. I was responding to a guy who said the company told him they would never pay us top rate. If he had said the company told him they would never give us scope, I would have responded in kind. If he had said the company told him they would never improve section 25, I would have responded in kind. He specifically referred to pay and so I specifically responded to pay. Don’t be dense. You need not question my mentality going forward.

All Bizniz
07-05-2018, 07:34 AM
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.

However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.

What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.

All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?

The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.

We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.

A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.

Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.

The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:

VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.

So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.

So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.

My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.

av8or
07-05-2018, 09:11 AM
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.

However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.

What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.

All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?

The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.

We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.

A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.

Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.

The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:

VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.

So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.

So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.

My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.

☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻 Well said.

KnockKnock
07-05-2018, 10:27 AM
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.

However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.

What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.

All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?

The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.

We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.

A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.

Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.

The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:

VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.

So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.

So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.

My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.
Biz, I understand your argument and I agree with you on many things but to say there hasn’t been clear prejudice/accusation/declaration, coming from some of the VX pilots towards the AS pilots is just false. As much mud has been slung from your side of the fence as has from ours. Your guys have lumped every AS pilot into one group of so called “spineless sell outs”, even though 700 pilots of the current 2000 were hired AFTER the last contract was voted in. We have not yet had a chance to make change at this company and before anyone declares that by simply coming here we’ve “sold out”, look no further than your own circumstances and reasons for being at VX. Before you say you voted in ALPA and change was imminent, remember our CBA was amendable this past Spring and many of US thought real, positive, change was imminent. I think if you were to sit down and compare lists with an AS pilot, you’d find that contrary to your pre judged belief that our priorities are different, you’d be shocked at how similar they are. My main argument has been that neither side comes from a position of superiority and therefore the soap box rhetoric is absolutely meaningless. Every argument has it’s counter argument so why not try and move past this nonsense. We may all be very different people in our daily lives but at work, we’re all pilots so let’s agree to get what we deserve as pilots and the only way of doing that is as one group.

OTZeagle1
07-05-2018, 10:39 AM
Hawaiian Airlines' new CEO says he's ready to battle Southwest Airlines whenever the Texas-based budget airline brings its discount airfares.
Peter Ingram, who took the helm at the Hawaiian March 1 after being chief commercial and chief financial officer for 12 years, says the island carrier has already competed effectively for years against three large airlines — Delta, United Airlines and American — on its home turf.
"I'm very confident that we have a cost structure that will allow us to be competitive," Ingram said in an interview in Seattle while he was in town for employee meetings.
—————————————————
Seems like Peter has been spending a lot of time in Seattle. Look for this thing to be announced late September. I think SWA or DAL could try and play spoiler. If not there will be no contract in 2020. Just another two year arbitrated award and another SLI to bicker about.

NotTellin
07-05-2018, 10:58 AM
The root of contention on this forum is based on the false assumption/declaration by some AS pilots that VX pilots as a group were second class pilots, some how beneath them, and unworthy of any of their concerns to be heard, or meaningfully addressed.

However, VX pilots hold no such prejudice against the capability/personality/character of our AS brothers as human beings and their ability to be competent pilots.

What was questioned is the seemingly collective lack of intestinal fortitude of the AS group to recover from the Kasher ruling gut punch.

All the other legacies had their contracts and retirements gutted to various extents arising from September 11, but they've all fought and managed to regain much of what was lost and even improved upon it. So why not our AS brothers?

The theory on here is that because the majority drove to work, many of the quality of life issues were deemed to be less important than hourly rates and that was reflected in subsequent contracts, including the latest.

We have a problem with that mindset if that is in fact the reason.

A very high number of VX pilots are industry veterans from other airlines, so they know what a decent contract looks like and that it isn't all about the hourly rate. It is therefore quite upsetting to see and experience losing under our current contract, decent scheduling and QOL provisions that we had at an airline when we did not have a contract.

Those are valid criticism that are worthy to be made by anyone and I don't think a valuable defense can be to point the finger and say "Well, what about you and your suboptimal compensation at VX?" That is a valid stand alone question to be asked of VX pilots; but not in defense of the AS contract shortcomings.

The VX side has responded to that question many times, but I'll repeat it again in a nutshell:

VX was started and was hiring at a time when airlines were failing and no one was hiring. The majority of pilots who went there, once on board found it to be a decent place to be overall, but work started almost immediately to address the sub-standard pay and other issues. This culminated with ALPA being voted in in 2015, after a failed VALPA effort a few years prior.

So we pushed and we fought, and we fought and we pushed until we were acquired by AS in 2016.

So we now have a combined pilot body whose circumstances and needs are not all the same. Things that were inconsequential to the majority of AS pilots are now detrimental to the VX side if not addressed in a meaningful way.

My hope is that we can look at all our collective concerns, formulate a plan of action as to how to approach the 2020 negotiations and that we stay determined and united until it culminates in a decent overall contract.

The only thing I would add is that VALPA drive only failed on a technicality. More than enough cards returned but they did not have a date on them so they were invalidated.

MusicPilot
07-05-2018, 11:18 AM
Seeing the way Angle Lake negotiates 2020 is gonna be more like 2028. But that’s ok. We all can wait around for it. “Superior” 😏

av8or
07-05-2018, 12:03 PM
Biz, I understand your argument and I agree with you on many things but to say there hasn’t been clear prejudice/accusation/declaration, coming from some of the VX pilots towards the AS pilots is just false. As much mud has been slung from your side of the fence as has from ours. Your guys have lumped every AS pilot into one group of so called “spineless sell outs”, even though 700 pilots of the current 2000 were hired AFTER the last contract was voted in. We have not yet had a chance to make change at this company and before anyone declares that by simply coming here we’ve “sold out”, look no further than your own circumstances and reasons for being at VX. Before you say you voted in ALPA and change was imminent, remember our CBA was amendable this past Spring and many of US thought real, positive, change was imminent. I think if you were to sit down and compare lists with an AS pilot, you’d find that contrary to your pre judged belief that our priorities are different, you’d be shocked at how similar they are. My main argument has been that neither side comes from a position of superiority and therefore the soap box rhetoric is absolutely meaningless. Every argument has it’s counter argument so why not try and move past this nonsense. We may all be very different people in our daily lives but at work, we’re all pilots so let’s agree to get what we deserve as pilots and the only way of doing that is as one group.

☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻☝🏻 And this!!

I can’t believe it. Hopefully starting to see a coalition come together. 🥃🥃

OCCP
07-05-2018, 05:16 PM
Nicely said, knockknock. Beers on me!

All Bizniz
07-06-2018, 05:49 AM
Biz, I understand your argument and I agree with you on many things but to say there hasn’t been clear prejudice/accusation/declaration, coming from some of the VX pilots towards the AS pilots is just false. As much mud has been slung from your side of the fence as has from ours. Your guys have lumped every AS pilot into one group of so called “spineless sell outs”, even though 700 pilots of the current 2000 were hired AFTER the last contract was voted in. We have not yet had a chance to make change at this company and before anyone declares that by simply coming here we’ve “sold out”, look no further than your own circumstances and reasons for being at VX. Before you say you voted in ALPA and change was imminent, remember our CBA was amendable this past Spring and many of US thought real, positive, change was imminent. I think if you were to sit down and compare lists with an AS pilot, you’d find that contrary to your pre judged belief that our priorities are different, you’d be shocked at how similar they are. My main argument has been that neither side comes from a position of superiority and therefore the soap box rhetoric is absolutely meaningless. Every argument has it’s counter argument so why not try and move past this nonsense. We may all be very different people in our daily lives but at work, we’re all pilots so let’s agree to get what we deserve as pilots and the only way of doing that is as one group.

Knock knock, if you missed the point of my argument then it is my fault for not being as clear and concise as I should have been.

Yes, on this forum, mud has been slung on both sides, but primarily for two vastly different reasons. Whereas mud (to use your term) has been slung at you guys for being spineless (again borrowing your term) collectively; mud have been slung at us from your side not primarily for our actions, but from the fundamental point of view that VX pilots are a lower class of pilots than AS pilots or any other legacy pilot for that matter.

Like I said, you can question why a pilot went to VX with substandard pay, a question which I think has been answered quite well, but to question a whole pilot group's professional and personal worth, coming basically from a mindset of superiority, was the problem that I had with the postings and probably why our guys started to give you guys *h*t about your contract.

As a side note, prior to starting on the road to becoming a part of AS, I honestly thought of them as a big legacy carrier.... in name, in age, in operation, in contract, in schedule, in QOL, etc..

For me, it really is a culture shock to come to the realization that it is a legacy carrier in name and age only and I'm not talking about the pilots here, but rather the airline itself. (And yes, I get it and appreciate the fact that it's been a profitable airline and it does have its strength but we wouldn't be pilots if we didn't point out the warts too :)

As we seem to all agree tho, we have to be united in our efforts to get us where we ought to be with our contract and hopefully the rest will follow.

KnockKnock
07-06-2018, 07:34 AM
Knock knock, if you missed the point of my argument then it is my fault for not being as clear and concise as I should have been.

Yes, on this forum, mud has been slung on both sides, but primarily for two vastly different reasons. Whereas mud (to use your term) has been slung at you guys for being spineless (again borrowing your term) collectively; mud have been slung at us from your side not primarily for our actions, but from the fundamental point of view that VX pilots are a lower class of pilots than AS pilots or any other legacy pilot for that matter.

Like I said, you can question why a pilot went to VX with substandard pay, a question which I think has been answered quite well, but to question a whole pilot group's professional and personal worth, coming basically from a mindset of superiority, was the problem that I had with the postings and probably why our guys started to give you guys *h*t about your contract.

As a side note, prior to starting on the road to becoming a part of AS, I honestly thought of them as a big legacy carrier.... in name, in age, in operation, in contract, in schedule, in QOL, etc..

For me, it really is a culture shock to come to the realization that it is a legacy carrier in name and age only and I'm not talking about the pilots here, but rather the airline itself. (And yes, I get it and appreciate the fact that it's been a profitable airline and it does have its strength but we wouldn't be pilots if we didn't point out the warts too :)

As we seem to all agree tho, we have to be united in our efforts to get us where we ought to be with our contract and hopefully the rest will follow.
Well Biz, I’ve never agreed with those who’ve lashed out and trashed VX pilots for spite. I think it’s petty and does nothing to move our collective needle forward. I don’t think that the overwhelming majority of AS folks feel as though VX pilots are substandard pilots. Those spewing that trash on here are truly a vocal minority. What I’ve seen is that most guys/gals have issues with longevity (of VX) and balance sheet but never questioned the pilots abilities or legitimacy. The few I’ve flow with that start down that path I’ve reminded how many of you guys have long histories in the industry and the conversation quickly turns to something else. Mergers unfortunately bring out the ugly side in some. Once we look past our pride we’ll see that both groups have very similar wish lists for 2020. We, (those of us not o.k. with status quo), are in the majority now. We’ve got a real shot at making this place a true legacy airline. We all want better and hopefully soon we will demand better. Even those of us who live in base!

All Bizniz
07-06-2018, 09:14 AM
Well Biz, I’ve never agreed with those who’ve lashed out and trashed VX pilots for spite. I think it’s petty and does nothing to move our collective needle forward. I don’t think that the overwhelming majority of AS folks feel as though VX pilots are substandard pilots. Those spewing that trash on here are truly a vocal minority. What I’ve seen is that most guys/gals have issues with longevity (of VX) and balance sheet but never questioned the pilots abilities or legitimacy. The few I’ve flow with that start down that path I’ve reminded how many of you guys have long histories in the industry and the conversation quickly turns to something else. Mergers unfortunately bring out the ugly side in some. Once we look past our pride we’ll see that both groups have very similar wish lists for 2020. We, (those of us not o.k. with status quo), are in the majority now. We’ve got a real shot at making this place a true legacy airline. We all want better and hopefully soon we will demand better. Even those of us who live in base!

OK, understood....

Saltlife85
07-06-2018, 12:20 PM
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya
Cmon’ everyone.!!

Kumbaya, my lord Kumbaya !

All Bizniz
07-06-2018, 01:26 PM
Ohhh Lorrrrrdddd, Kumbaya!

KnockKnock
07-06-2018, 04:05 PM
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya
Kumbaya, my lord, Kumbaya
Cmon’ everyone.!!

Kumbaya, my lord Kumbaya !
It won’t be pretty but I’ll sing kumbaya all day long with you if it means we work together to get the contract we deserve. No shame here.

ImperialxRat
07-08-2018, 09:57 AM
Why September?

Hawaiian Airlines' new CEO says he's ready to battle Southwest Airlines whenever the Texas-based budget airline brings its discount airfares.
Peter Ingram, who took the helm at the Hawaiian March 1 after being chief commercial and chief financial officer for 12 years, says the island carrier has already competed effectively for years against three large airlines — Delta, United Airlines and American — on its home turf.
"I'm very confident that we have a cost structure that will allow us to be competitive," Ingram said in an interview in Seattle while he was in town for employee meetings.
—————————————————
Seems like Peter has been spending a lot of time in Seattle. Look for this thing to be announced late September. I think SWA or DAL could try and play spoiler. If not there will be no contract in 2020. Just another two year arbitrated award and another SLI to bicker about.

SmoothLanderJ
07-09-2018, 09:34 AM
Ohhh Lorrrrrdddd, Kumbaya!

LOL!!! Take em to church! :D:D