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Papa Bear
05-11-2018, 11:30 AM
w JetBlue ALPA pilots,

We are pleased to inform you that this week's mediated negotiating session with the company has concluded with an Agreement in Principle (AIP). We know this step toward working under a collective bargaining agreement (CBA) is welcome news that our 3,600 pilots have long awaited.

Over the following weeks, your Negotiating Committee will be hard at work to finalize language in the agreement. Because of efforts made between bargaining sessions by our negotiators and the company, a significant amount of this lift has already been completed, partially reducing the timeline to a ratification. Based on prior agreements at other properties and our current position, we anticipate this taking three to four weeks.

Once the Master Executive Council (MEC) has had the opportunity to review the agreement in totality, their vote will determine whether it goes to the pilot group as a Tentative Agreement for membership ratification. We ask that you allow your elected leadership the ability to fully study and understand the agreementóa critical step in this time-honored process of Section 6 negotiations.

Should the MEC vote pass, we will immediately distribute the agreement for your review, advise you of our road show schedule, and create ample opportunity to engage your union leadership about the agreement. Each active member in good standing will then be asked to participate in the democratic process of our union and decide whether to ratify the agreement.

Between now and the release of the full TA language and supporting information, we encourage you to refrain from engaging in speculation about the details of the agreement. We will not release any details of the AIP for the same reason we have stated throughout this process: it is critical for members to make an informed and educated judgement on the agreement in its final entirety. To pluck items out for dissemination would only serve to create biases and misconceptions, thus undermining the ratification process.

In light of the AIP, the MEC has cancelled the informational picket at JetBlue headquarters on May 17. We sincerely thank the hundreds of pilots that signed up for our picketing event in support of your Negotiating Committee and MEC. Ultimately, this agreement was driven by the commitment of our membership.

In Unity,


Softpayman
05-11-2018, 11:33 AM
Excellent news for all parties involved. Of course we have to see what's in it (goes without question). But based on our second polling I'm sure the MEC had a pretty good idea what is expected out of contract #1.

Speedbird2263
05-11-2018, 11:40 AM
Welcomed news. I look forward to the next few weeks and if the MEC so decides, reading the TA in whole. Cautious optimism survives yet.


hilltopflyer
05-11-2018, 11:52 AM
Any idea what the time table is if it'll take 3/4 weeks for mec to decide. (I'm thankful the mec knows what we want)

NightOwl
05-11-2018, 11:55 AM
Any idea what the time table is if it'll take 3/4 weeks for mec to decide. (I'm thankful the mec knows what we want)

I'm guessing we will have something to vote on by late June at the earliest.

hyperboy
05-11-2018, 12:00 PM
Any idea what the time table is if it'll take 3/4 weeks for mec to decide. (I'm thankful the mec knows what we want)

just a couple of days......

Chimpy
05-11-2018, 12:21 PM
Congrats on the AIP, Iím sure your N/C wouldnt send it to MEC if they didnít feel it was worthy.

PasserOGas
05-11-2018, 12:22 PM
We shall see... be prepared to vote the first one down though. Its a time honored tradition.

hilltopflyer
05-11-2018, 12:25 PM
Unless it's exactly what I want I will. If it isn't, vote it down. That's why I can't wait to see it, or the mec to vote it down for me

Bluedriver
05-11-2018, 12:35 PM
It's a beer night!!!

Pickleman
05-11-2018, 12:36 PM
Vote it down due to ďtraditionĒ?!?!?

I think that instead Iíll read it and then make an informed decision.

Bozo the pilot
05-11-2018, 12:44 PM
It's a beer night!!!

Yes- lets enjoy this day and deal with the vote when it comes.
Thanks to the NC and MEC.

Salukipilot4590
05-11-2018, 12:48 PM
Vote it down due to ďtraditionĒ?!?!?

I think that instead Iíll read it and then make an informed decision.

I think he was being sarcastic

Pilot417
05-11-2018, 01:00 PM
So this will take 3/4 weeks to find out the details of the agreement or just to read the full language?

hilltopflyer
05-11-2018, 01:12 PM
So this will take 3/4 weeks to find out the details of the agreement or just to read the full language?

I read it as 3/4 weeks for the mec to make a decision. I wish we would get bullet points beforehand but I don't think we will (the way I read it)

tlbmn2003
05-11-2018, 01:14 PM
Figure around June 10th for a full MEC vote. Then roadshows in everybase for around 3 weeks, give or take (read July 1). Then open for a vote while still doing more roadshows, Q&Aís, etc. Vote closes after 21-25 days (canít remember ALPA specifics). Results are known very quickly with electronic voting. Ratified date of August 1st.

Best thing to do is read the entire TA once it becomes available. Pay rates are fun to brag about, but work rules determine your W2.

Congrats and enjoy!

Aero1900
05-11-2018, 01:21 PM
Congratulations! Hope it's a good deal.

Temocil27
05-11-2018, 02:22 PM
From a former colleague im glad to hear you guys are making progress! I'm just curious what section will cover pizza deliveries??

NightOwl
05-11-2018, 02:26 PM
From a former colleague im glad to hear you guys are making progress! I'm just curious what section will cover pizza deliveries??

You have a bright future in comedy if this whole flying thing doesn't pan out. :)

pilotpayne
05-11-2018, 03:04 PM
We shall see... be prepared to vote the first one down though. Its a time honored tradition.

What a joke. We finally make it to this point and this is your first reaction.

Southerner
05-11-2018, 03:30 PM
What a joke. We finally make it to this point and this is your first reaction.

He is apparently an even bigger idiot than BlueDriver, if that's possible.

Excargodog
05-11-2018, 04:03 PM
Why the 3-4 week delay. Read the damn thing, then let everyone else see it. The more eyes looking for glitches or potential gotchas in it the better. You can still run your propaganda campaign before the actual vote, but let people who are going to be affected by it see it and mull it over for themselves.

seekingblue
05-11-2018, 04:16 PM
Why the 3-4 week delay. Read the damn thing, then let everyone else see it. The more eyes looking for glitches or potential gotchas in it the better. You can still run your propaganda campaign before the actual vote, but let people who are going to be affected by it see it and mull it over for themselves.

Because the final language hasnít been written. Itís now a series of points and ideas that have been agreed to, without final language. Thatís why these 3-4 weeks are so important.

Gordie H
05-11-2018, 04:17 PM
Wonderful news on a Friday night. Progress....:)

Bozo the pilot
05-11-2018, 04:18 PM
He is apparently an even bigger idiot than BlueDriver, if that's possible.

I detected a bit of sarcasm from pog and it wouldnt be idiocy, its fear of the status quo by jetblew. Plenty of guys skeptical about anything this company would agree to. I have faith in the NC and MEC, NOT B6BS.
If the MEC says its good, lets read it and decide.
Youve been one-sided the entire time Southerner, and that can be construed as idiocy. Lets bury this hatchet for a few days. Hope you're doin well.

pilotpayne
05-11-2018, 04:23 PM
He is apparently an even bigger idiot than BlueDriver, if that's possible.

Iím not going to touch the bluedriver one as him and I actually kind of understand each other. But passer sure. I read on here how everything sucks it will take a strike I want to go back to my regional and the other endless amount of crap not to mention influencing guys about passing up a job here to stay at a regional and he posts that.

That should tell you a little about him and how he thinks.

I donít know the details they could be crap but I doubt it. What I know is we are in a much better position than we were just a few hours ago. Letís hold off on all out celebration but this is certainly not bad news. I remain guardedly optimistic.

Qotsaautopilot
05-11-2018, 05:00 PM
Great news guys. I hope you blow us(Spirit) away. SCOPE!!

Bozo the pilot
05-11-2018, 05:03 PM
Great news guys. I hope you blow us(Spirit) away. SCOPE!!

No scope= No vote

Bluedriver
05-11-2018, 05:23 PM
He is apparently an even bigger idiot than BlueDriver, if that's possible.

Someone once told me that arguing with someone with an intellectual disability on the internet was a waste of time. I think he's right. Carry on #### stick, I'm enjoying a beer.

Bozo the pilot
05-11-2018, 05:27 PM
Someone once told me that arguing with someone with an intellectual disability on the internet was a waste of time. I think he's right. Carry on #### stick, I'm enjoying a beer.

:D. Many are enjoying a beverage tonight.

Bluedriver
05-11-2018, 05:59 PM
:D. Many are enjoying a beverage tonight.

Indeed!

🍻🍻🍻🍻👍

PasserOGas
05-11-2018, 07:06 PM
Iím not going to touch the bluedriver one as him and I actually kind of understand each other. But passer sure. I read on here how everything sucks it will take a strike I want to go back to my regional and the other endless amount of crap not to mention influencing guys about passing up a job here to stay at a regional and he posts that.

That should tell you a little about him and how he thinks.

I donít know the details they could be crap but I doubt it. What I know is we are in a much better position than we were just a few hours ago. Letís hold off on all out celebration but this is certainly not bad news. I remain guardedly optimistic.

I was never at a regional. Nice try though.

I am a "show me the money" type. NC's have handed their pilots turd sandwiches before. I am NOT saying this will be one, but it happens quite often. Until I see EVERYTHING as industry standard or better in writing I am luke warm at best. Sorry if I killed your buzz. Also, I said MAY take a strike. (It still might btw.)

I will start drinking when our CBA is ratified with industry standard or better language and pay. Until then, this is a truce.

PasserOGas
05-11-2018, 07:12 PM
He is apparently an even bigger idiot than BlueDriver, if that's possible.

I would have you remember that any gains from a CBA will be no thanks to you.

Also, go #$%@ yourself.

Bluedriver
05-11-2018, 07:27 PM
I would have you remember that any gains from a CBA will be no thanks to you.

Also, go #$%@ yourself.

Yep, all of this. So true Passer.

jtrain609
05-11-2018, 07:42 PM
I was never at a regional. Nice try though.

I am a "show me the money" type. NC's have handed their pilots turd sandwiches before. I am NOT saying this will be one, but it happens quite often. Until I see EVERYTHING as industry standard or better in writing I am luke warm at best. Sorry if I killed your buzz. Also, I said MAY take a strike. (It still might btw.)

I will start drinking when our CBA is ratified with industry standard or better language and pay. Until then, this is a truce.

Holy crap, this is your first contract cycle?

No wonder you have no idea what you're talking about.

Cowboy1733
05-11-2018, 07:46 PM
Well deserved and long overdue. Happy for you guys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Southerner
05-11-2018, 07:56 PM
I detected a bit of sarcasm from pog and it wouldnt be idiocy, its fear of the status quo by jetblew. Plenty of guys skeptical about anything this company would agree to. I have faith in the NC and MEC, NOT B6BS.
If the MEC says its good, lets read it and decide.
Youve been one-sided the entire time Southerner, and that can be construed as idiocy. Lets bury this hatchet for a few days. Hope you're doin well.

See. I haven't been one-sided. I've consistently said that I know where the areas for improvement are, and I want a CBA badly.

Where we differ is on the negativity. Negotiating is business, not personal. And I absolutely detest the divisiveness of some of the guys on here. Someone doesn't think or act as they think they should, and they lambaste them. It's ignorant, and divisive.

Southerner
05-11-2018, 07:57 PM
All that being said, yes, it's time to bury the hatchets and celebrate. I can't wait to read the TA!

Air Stang 7
05-11-2018, 08:23 PM
I hope itís everything you folks wanted and deserve.

DALFA
05-11-2018, 08:34 PM
So...they basically played hardball while the FAs were running heir campaign over the last year or so in order to not give in and get them to vote against TWU. Once the FAs unionized then B6 decided to finally negotiate. Union busting 101.

BeatNavy
05-11-2018, 09:52 PM
So...they basically played hardball while the FAs were running heir campaign over the last year or so in order to not give in and get them to vote against TWU. Once the FAs unionized then B6 decided to finally negotiate. Union busting 101.

And their real masters (Wall St) have been on them recently over the lack of contract and one firm just downgraded them bc of it. And we were about to picket the shareholder meeting. And it was about to be the summer of fun, with a labor dispute, with an already flailing operation. And as each day passed, more and more people stopped helping out by going above and beyond. And while not required, having a contract makes forecasting costs a lot easier, which is important for things like fleet plans, base changes (displacement language), and a slew of other things that werenít necessarily impossible without a contract, but that are much more clear now. The pressure was getting turned up in many areas. I donít think the FA vote was all that important to this AIP. The NC said as much. If the company wanted to keep a union off property for them, they could have easily done so.

benzoate
05-12-2018, 01:32 AM
You have a bright future in comedy if this whole flying thing doesn't pan out. :)

You guys are killing me with the puns. Remember this contract is about money and benefits and not the ability to fly pizzas across the country in a timely manner.:D

benzoate
05-12-2018, 01:39 AM
So...they basically played hardball while the FAs were running heir campaign over the last year or so in order to not give in and get them to vote against TWU. Once the FAs unionized then B6 decided to finally negotiate. Union busting 101.

Admittedly, I never thought this would happen but one argument for the AIP now resides with the summer flying and the debacle that was last summer as well as the potential for Europe flying and the LR. The airline needs the pilot group in both areas.

I caution everyone reading this post however. A pay rate is nothing without rigs, scope or benefits. With respect to benefits Jetblue is not inclined to provide pilots a different health care plan so if the details are not contained within the agreement then expect a yearly change as we see now.

Food for thought ladies and gents.

hilltopflyer
05-12-2018, 01:48 AM
Admittedly, I never thought this would happen but one argument for the AIP now resides with the summer flying and the debacle that was last summer as well as the potential for Europe flying and the LR. The airline needs the pilot group in both areas.

I caution everyone reading this post however. A pay rate is nothing without rigs, scope or benefits. With respect to benefits Jetblue is not inclined to provide pilots a different health care plan so if the details are not contained within the agreement then expect a yearly change as we see now.

Food for thought ladies and gents.

Pay rates are nothing if they can charge anything for health care.

cmesoar
05-12-2018, 02:22 AM
Pay rates are nothing if they can charge anything for health care.

You have to look at the entire package. I am also very interested to read the scope section..It also needs to be solid.

Bluedriver
05-12-2018, 04:04 AM
See. I haven't been one-sided. I've consistently said that I know where the areas for improvement are, and I want a CBA badly.

Where we differ is on the negativity. Negotiating is business, not personal. And I absolutely detest the divisiveness of some of the guys on here. Someone doesn't think or act as they think they should, and they lambaste them. It's ignorant, and divisive.

I can tell you the PRIMARY thing that achieved this AIP was negativity.

This management was NEVER, and I do mean NEVER going to agree to an expensive contract after a certain number of months or years. Real progress on the expensive cornerstone issues came only after the union declared a labor dispute, an SOP only campaign, negative media, negative social media, picketing and the fact that the airline finally began to lose pilot good will and losing their helpers. Wall Street also understands labor discontent, and was beginning to put pressure on the company, because of angry pilots! In other words, when the group finally got angry enough.

Read that again. And again. You may not like it. You may detest it. But that is reality dude.

So anyone who actively and vocally tries to quiet and settle the group with "patience' and "decorum" speech and the old "it's just business" routine literally extends the time it takes to get an agreement.

Angry, vocal, frustrated and SOP pilots get TA's.

Patient, quiet and docile pilots get the big blue weenie.

I told Payne privately toward the beginning of this year that we had a greater than 50% chance of a CBA this year, and if it happened most likely before summer.

I told Payne privately recently that for many reasons this meeting had a good chance of producing an agreement. Also for the record, Payne on his own and for the same reasons predicted a likely agreement at this meeting.

I told the entire group, and got told how wrong I was by the way, that we would have NO agreement by summer 2017.

I again told the group, and again was told how wrong I was, that we would have NO agreement by end of year 2017.

So I have absolutely proven my understanding of the process. So, instead of running that erectile-washing-machine you call a mouth, why don't you read this post 5 more times and stop telling us what you "detest".

I do NOT care what you detest, I care what works and what actually achieves the raises and work rules we deserve.

pilotpayne
05-12-2018, 04:15 AM
And their real masters (Wall St) have been on them recently over the lack of contract and one firm just downgraded them bc of it. And we were about to picket the shareholder meeting. And it was about to be the summer of fun, with a labor dispute, with an already flailing operation. And as each day passed, more and more people stopped helping out by going above and beyond. And while not required, having a contract makes forecasting costs a lot easier, which is important for things like fleet plans, base changes (displacement language), and a slew of other things that werenít necessarily impossible without a contract, but that are much more clear now. The pressure was getting turned up in many areas. I donít think the FA vote was all that important to this AIP. The NC said as much. If the company wanted to keep a union off property for them, they could have easily done so.


This guy ^^^^^^

pilotpayne
05-12-2018, 04:20 AM
Admittedly, I never thought this would happen but one argument for the AIP now resides with the summer flying and the debacle that was last summer as well as the potential for Europe flying and the LR. The airline needs the pilot group in both areas.

I caution everyone reading this post however. A pay rate is nothing without rigs, scope or benefits. With respect to benefits Jetblue is not inclined to provide pilots a different health care plan so if the details are not contained within the agreement then expect a yearly change as we see now.

Food for thought ladies and gents.



And this guy ^^^^^^^

My opinion only is the company wants to do other things the 321lr or a new fleet or both and it was time to be done with this contract. As was said many times they could afford it they just wanted to play games. Finally Wall St spoke up and this ďunknown costĒ needed to be dealt with. Thatís the payne optimist view.

Or

They totally played us again but you would need the NC to sign off on that and if that was true we have big big problems.

PasserOGas
05-12-2018, 04:50 AM
Admittedly, I never thought this would happen but one argument for the AIP now resides with the summer flying and the debacle that was last summer as well as the potential for Europe flying and the LR. The airline needs the pilot group in both areas.

I caution everyone reading this post however. A pay rate is nothing without rigs, scope or benefits. With respect to benefits Jetblue is not inclined to provide pilots a different health care plan so if the details are not contained within the agreement then expect a yearly change as we see now.

Food for thought ladies and gents.

I am actually really impressed with management right now.

If the TA is bad, they will clear the summer with all the help they need while we review and vote. If it is good, they aren't as short sighted as I thought. Either way they played the game well and max performed the pilot group.

hilltopflyer
05-12-2018, 05:10 AM
I am actually really impressed with management right now.

If the TA is bad, they will clear the summer with all the help they need while we review and vote. If it is good, they aren't as short sighted as I thought. Either way they played the game well and max performed the pilot group.

I'm sure it isn't the second option. If it is it's time for a new nc. We have them by the gonads before this summer, Wall Street uncertainty, etc. there wouldn't be any need to cave now (which is why I don't think it's the second option)

Bluedriver
05-12-2018, 05:11 AM
I am actually really impressed with management right now.

If the TA is bad, they will clear the summer with all the help they need while we review and vote. If it is good, they aren't as short sighted as I thought. Either way they played the game well and max performed the pilot group.

Don't give them so much credit. If it's bad, we'll know early. Won't be a good summer for them if it is...

pilotpayne
05-12-2018, 05:14 AM
I am actually really impressed with management right now.

If the TA is bad, they will clear the summer with all the help they need while we review and vote. If it is good, they aren't as short sighted as I thought. Either way they played the game well and max performed the pilot group.

Dude how would they clear the summer? We will know the details soon.

Pilot417
05-12-2018, 05:23 AM
Since the start of my career I wasnít a lanyard guy but since coming to B6 I wore the ALPA one to show support. Is it safe to say we can go back to the clip? Maybe B6 Alpa cards for under our IDs wouldnít be a bad thing?? (I believe AA has this)

Bluedriver
05-12-2018, 05:45 AM
Since the start of my career I wasnít a lanyard guy but since coming to B6 I wore the ALPA one to show support. Is it safe to say we can go back to the clip? Maybe B6 Alpa cards for under our IDs wouldnít be a bad thing?? (I believe AA has this)

An ALPA card that shows below your ID isn't a bad idea.

Thanks for wearing the lanyard, even though you prefer not to, it's what was asked of you and I think it helped.

There is going to be some hot debates about shelving the lanyard now, and I think it is less important than before, but still serves a purpose.

Food for thought, this is not over. First, we haven't seen the TA. It may not be acceptable. Next is the FIGHT to get JB to fully implement and LIVE BY this agreement (think perpetually late reserve assignments!). They will slow roll the implementation of all the details. They will "interpret" things differently (yes I know great effort has been put into writing definitions and examples, but this is BLUEJET!).

After we finally get it implemented, it won't be long before early opener contract negotiations start again and then process just repeats all over again!

I will be less critical of non-lanyard wearers outside of section 6, but I think this is just a new paradigm and the lanyard is useful perpetually.

If you do shelve it, prepare to don it early and often in the future.

BeatNavy
05-12-2018, 05:50 AM
The last union email still says wear your lanyard. So itís still spelled out for us. Unless you want to look like southerner, keep it on until the language is finalized and weíve seen the thing, and the union clarifies when we can remove them.

pilotpayne
05-12-2018, 05:58 AM
Since the start of my career I wasnít a lanyard guy but since coming to B6 I wore the ALPA one to show support. Is it safe to say we can go back to the clip? Maybe B6 Alpa cards for under our IDs wouldnít be a bad thing?? (I believe AA has this)

I agree once this is all done that would be a nice option.
I hate hate hate lanyards (I know Iím odd) I would love to go back to the clip thing. But itís not over yet.

PasserOGas
05-12-2018, 06:12 AM
Dude how would they clear the summer? We will know the details soon.

Well, it is a cease fire right now. I know I wont be deleting the RSA emails with extreme prejudice like I have been. I want them to see what a happy pilot force can do for them. That way if we vote it down they will see the value in concluding further negotiations quickly. If we vote yes, I want to help the company succeed from this point forward.

citxls
05-12-2018, 06:19 AM
Well, it is a cease fire right now. I know I wont be deleting the RSA emails with extreme prejudice like I have been. I want them to see what a happy pilot force can do for them. That way if we vote it down they will see the value in concluding further negotiations quickly. If we vote yes, I want to help the company succeed from this point forward.

I think a majority of us do want to see this airline succeed, the devil is still in the details but I donít think the NC would sign off on a crappy deal.

nkbux
05-12-2018, 08:14 AM
Iíll throw caution to the wind... if theyíre remotely as slimy as NK management theyíll try and sue you for theyíre poor staffing model when the summer gets crazy. Congrats guys... hope your leaps and bounds ahead of us

pilotpayne
05-12-2018, 09:09 AM
Well, it is a cease fire right now. I know I wont be deleting the RSA emails with extreme prejudice like I have been. I want them to see what a happy pilot force can do for them. That way if we vote it down they will see the value in concluding further negotiations quickly. If we vote yes, I want to help the company succeed from this point forward.




I agree with that

N311JB
05-12-2018, 01:33 PM
Sorry but even with a quality TA it will take me 13 years to offer any goodwill in return. Thatís how long it took me personally to get to where we are. Let that sink in. Everyone is different and I hate to be jaded but a good TA doesnít nulllfy all the abuses B6 has performed on our pilot group. A solid TA just stops the bleeding for now
3A, time and a half above 70hrs, profit sharing, healthcare, vacation. It will take a long time to recoup all the loses

feltf4
05-12-2018, 02:24 PM
Sorry but even with a quality TA it will take me 13 years to offer any goodwill in return. Thatís how long it took me personally to get to where we are. Let that sink in. Everyone is different and I hate to be jaded but a good TA doesnít nulllfy all the abuses B6 has performed on our pilot group. A solid TA just stops the bleeding for now
3A, time and a half above 70hrs, profit sharing, healthcare, vacation. It will take a long time to recoup all the loses

Uhhh for real?

Yes yes. The world owes you for your 13 years of jetblue service.

Pilots really are pathetic.

cmesoar
05-12-2018, 02:32 PM
Sorry but even with a quality TA it will take me 13 years to offer any goodwill in return. Thatís how long it took me personally to get to where we are. Let that sink in. Everyone is different and I hate to be jaded but a good TA doesnít nulllfy all the abuses B6 has performed on our pilot group. A solid TA just stops the bleeding for now
3A, time and a half above 70hrs, profit sharing, healthcare, vacation. It will take a long time to recoup all the loses

Did you volunteer or help our MEC? Let this sink in. Life is short. Please leave and thank the NC on your way out. Better yet, they deserve better than to hear from you, just leave...

N311JB
05-12-2018, 02:45 PM
Are you guys serious? You guys think its ok to stow your lanyards just because we get a contract? Your MEC and NC thanks you. Yes pilots are unbelievable. Sorry but I think every pilot should keep wearing their lanyards till they retire. Let that sink in every time a pilot waives their contract, after the all the work they/we have put in. My integrity doesn't vanquish because we get a TA.

feltf4
05-12-2018, 03:02 PM
Did you volunteer or help our MEC? Let this sink in. Life is short. Please leave and thank the NC on your way out. Better yet, they deserve better than to hear from you, just leave...

+10 on this.

But it ďpersonallyĒ took him 13 years to get to where he is today. So yeah def feel bad for him.. the world owes him everything?

Must be one of those guys who canít leave (list X number of excuse why he cannot leave)

Again 311, you fit in the pilots are ďunbelievable categoryĒ. be happy a bunch of your peers gave of their time for the last 3 years to make this happen for you.

Gordie H
05-12-2018, 03:46 PM
I agree once this is all done that would be a nice option.
I hate hate hate lanyards (I know Iím odd) I would love to go back to the clip thing. But itís not over yet.

Iím looking forward to ditching the lanyard too. Will happily break it out when contract time rolls around again. For now getting rid of the bag tags, stickers and just signed up for some VDA...yay money!

Hopefully guys quit trolling the pool folks as wellÖthat sh!t is just Junior High School / embarrassingÖ.

Bluedriver
05-12-2018, 04:09 PM
If I had 4 hands I would do a quadruple face palm. For so many reasons.

feltf4
05-12-2018, 04:16 PM
If I had 4 hands I would do a quadruple face palm. For so many reasons.

Oh yah yah. But your hands are full of trash from picking up the cabin...

benzoate
05-12-2018, 04:26 PM
Sorry but even with a quality TA it will take me 13 years to offer any goodwill in return. Thatís how long it took me personally to get to where we are. Let that sink in. Everyone is different and I hate to be jaded but a good TA doesnít nulllfy all the abuses B6 has performed on our pilot group. A solid TA just stops the bleeding for now
3A, time and a half above 70hrs, profit sharing, healthcare, vacation. It will take a long time to recoup all the loses

You guys are missing the point here. For those of us who have been at Jetblue for this length of time we have been lied to and abused almost our entire tenure. What N311JB is saying is not wrong. A TA, no matter how good, doesn't simply erase the lies and abuse. Its not that easy for us of us to forgive and forget. Those of you who have been here a shorter length of time may not understand and thats ok but try and respect the the opinion of someone who has been beat down by this airline. He'll get there, as Im sure I will as well, but this place still means something different now than it did in the beginning.

Just a thought.

Bozo the pilot
05-12-2018, 04:54 PM
Uhhh for real?

Yes yes. The world owes you for your 13 years of jetblue service.

Pilots really are pathetic.
You a 13 yr guy as well?
Let him have his resentments- B6 created this environment. It will probably subside, but it'll take time-and btw, we have NOTHING yet.
Lets read, ratify and then tear each other apart- the way its meant to be:D

N311JB
05-12-2018, 05:01 PM
If some want to go back to being helpers, have at it. I personally think its disrespectful to our hard fought battle and the hard work the MEC has put forth. Management has shown its true colors how they feel about its employees The way we've stood together the last couples years should remain the standard so we won't have go through this again I have 25 years as most of us do, I'd like to think that when we go thru this again, and we will, Mgmt will know how strong we are and can be. I personally won't be answering my phone on my days off any time soon. All goodwill has been lost. I don't feel like I'm owed anything. I feel we owe our integrity to our peers and union to never give an inch again

NightOwl
05-12-2018, 05:11 PM
You a 13 yr guy as well?
Let him have his resentments- B6 created this environment. It will probably subside, but it'll take time-and btw, we have NOTHING yet.
Lets read, ratify and then tear each other apart- the way its meant to be:D
https://i.imgflip.com/2a5wny.jpg

:)

P-3Bubba
05-12-2018, 05:12 PM
I donít think you HAVE to be a hater. You have to find that balance. The whole point of not picking up VDA/RSA was a personal choice in how to best utilize YOUR time during a Labor Dispute.

A CBA should include the work rules to bolster staffing in the appropriate areas that benefit the company, customer and pilots. The compensation package should implement a quantifiable measure of value when compared to the work rules.

Rushing in to be a helper or take off your lanyard is still your personal choice. But follow the MEC guidance.

I hope the AIP yields a presentable TA and hopefully a vote to a CBA.

-Bubs

Bozo the pilot
05-12-2018, 05:51 PM
SOP till CBA:cool:

queue
05-12-2018, 06:06 PM
Uhhh for real?

Yes yes. The world owes you for your 13 years of jetblue service.

Pilots really are pathetic.

No, you are pathetic. If you are a pilot, you ARE the problem of the profession: a beaten down, defeatist who has no backbone to fight for his self-worth.

Pilots are professionals that have gone through substantial training, yearly evaluations, and trials on every flight. A good pilot studies hard and continues to self improve. Pilots should make no apologies to people like you who don't understand this. You can read my other posts to see statistics on pilot danger levels, education, testing, and workplace stress. It's a very unique profession most paralleled by medical doctors and engineers.

It's not the world that owes him 13 years, it's JetBlue. They have over a decade of abusive practices, deceit, progressive underpayment, and erosion of safety culture. BJ owes pilots for those 13 years of decline and they will pay.

Next time you fly, appreciate that those pilots are the professionals they are. Thank those two pilots who landed that 737 after one passenger died (one was Navy and the other USAF). I personally flew with one of them in a previous life and I didn't expect any less of that pilot. That pilot had substantial training, education, and accomplishment in their career.

You really need to check your attitude. This is not about entitlement. It's 100% about being treated and paid as professionals.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-12-2018, 06:15 PM
Are you guys serious? You guys think its ok to stow your lanyards just because we get a contract? Your MEC and NC thanks you. Yes pilots are unbelievable. Sorry but I think every pilot should keep wearing their lanyards till they retire. Let that sink in every time a pilot waives their contract, after the all the work they/we have put in. My integrity doesn't vanquish because we get a TA.

Yes, this is only the beginning.

There is significant work to change this profession and the industry to where it should be.

We don't have a contract yet so I'm not celebrating, patting people on the back, or anything. Kim Jong made Obama pretty hopeful several times while he stalled the US from action allowing him to develop nuclear weapons in North Korea. It took Trump to get negotiations going.

Don't be complacent. We have not gotten anything yet. Wear those lanyards, put pressure on your union to act (you're paying a fortune), fly SOP, accept no safety deviations or file an FAA Hotline report, and don't vote yes for a contract that makes any compromises whatsoever. BJ could end this tomorrow if they met our requirements.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-12-2018, 06:21 PM
I donít think you HAVE to be a hater.
-Bubs

That's right - agreed.

Firstly, "being a hater" is a phrase used by teenagers.

Secondly, being critical, as a professional should be, is not the same as being a hater. If you sit back and play both sides to remain neutral, well that makes you part of the problem. It makes you a passive sheep that only worries about himself. People with principles often are engaged in battle for their beliefs.

Never forget who the apologists and defeatists were after we get a contract. They must be the example of what not to be, such that no one ever forgets.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Gordie H
05-12-2018, 06:22 PM
Listen, Iím still a fairly new 121 person so Iím very open to thoughts hereÖbut arenít we now in ďcease fireĒ mode (as evidenced by the picket cancellation)? And donít we want to be extra helpful now to show a discernable difference on what a happy pilot group can be like? Fully understand that if a contract is voted down we go back to full on labor dispute. And if that happens I can assure you my personal motivation to come in on days off or whatever would truly drop way back down.

I get that guys that have been here a long time may well still have ill will (and probably for just cause). But Iím a practical person and if mgmt sees no difference in a pilot group with a contract (or for now a potential contract), what motivation would they have to readily give us more if the time comes later on this summer?

queue
05-12-2018, 06:50 PM
Listen, Iím still a fairly new 121 person so Iím very open to thoughts hereÖbut arenít we now in ďcease fireĒ mode (as evidenced by the picket cancellation)? And donít we want to be extra helpful now to show a discernable difference on what a happy pilot group can be like? Fully understand that if a contract is voted down we go back to full on labor dispute. And if that happens I can assure you my personal motivation to come in on days off or whatever would truly drop way back down.

I get that guys that have been here a long time may well still have ill will (and probably for just cause). But Iím a practical person and if mgmt sees no difference in a pilot group with a contract (or for now a potential contract), what motivation would they have to readily give us more if the time comes later on this summer?

Absolutely not! The enemy is relying on your expressions of true humanity in order to exploit it. If a murderer commits a murderer 30 years ago, does law enforcement forget?

Your definition of being practical is the same as being foolish. BJ is simply executing their playbook. Don't ever forget that they would fire you for anything - it's just business to them. You are just a number. Don't personify them. They are not people - they are acting on numbers and other market forces. You are expendable. The ONLY way to influence management is to fight for your worth.

Management is not "giving" you anything - you are earning it. And if you don't receive what you earned, they are stealing from you.

Again, have respect for the profession. A professional doesn't act happy or sad just because management throws out a carrot (which it's not even a carrot in this case). Either way, you are a puppet and they are pulling the strings as evidenced by your thought patterns. Management at any company will never reciprocate the way you want to. Everything they do is calculated, strategized, consulted on, and administered by lawyers. Negotiating with your heart and other things that make you human is just being naive to how the corporate world really works.

I personally think that canceling the informational picket was a big mistake only equaled to stopping the bombing of North Vietnam after Linebacker I & II because N. Vietnam cried uncle from heavy losses. They took advantage of this pause and ultimately it was one of the many reasons we lost Vietnam. In the corporate world, don't forget about Enron, Amazon's workforce exploitations, numerous airlines that killed passengers and pilots by unethical maintenance practices, FoxConn's (Apple) suicide nets, Monsanto poisoning the world and lying about it, and so on. These are not good people - these are corporate killers who don't care one iota about you. If you think the way you are advocating, we WILL lose this battle and the war for the industry.

http://peteralanlloyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/peter-alan-lloyd-BACK-novel-backpackers-in-danger-sihanouk-trail-cambodian-jungle-US-secret-war-B52-bombing-in-cambodia-ratanakiri-province-khmer-rouge-5.jpg


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Gordie H
05-12-2018, 07:29 PM
Absolutely not! The enemy is relying on your expressions of true humanity in order to exploit it. If a murderer commits a murderer 30 years ago, does law enforcement forget?

Your definition of being practical is the same as being foolish. BJ is simply executing their playbook. Don't ever forget that they would fire you for anything - it's just business to them. You are just a number. Don't personify them. They are not people - they are acting on numbers and other market forces. You are expendable. The ONLY way to influence management is to fight for your worth.

Management is not "giving" you anything - you are earning it. And if you don't receive what you earned, they are stealing from you.

Again, have respect for the profession. A professional doesn't act happy or sad just because management throws out a carrot (which it's not even a carrot in this case). Either way, you are a puppet and they are pulling the strings as evidenced by your thought patterns. Management at any company will never reciprocate the way you want to. Everything they do is calculated, strategized, consulted on, and administered by lawyers. Negotiating with your heart and other things that make you human is just being naive to how the corporate world really works.

I personally think that canceling the informational picket was a big mistake only equaled to stopping the bombing of North Vietnam after Linebacker I & II because N. Vietnam cried uncle from heavy losses. They took advantage of this pause and ultimately it was one of the many reasons we lost Vietnam. In the corporate world, don't forget about Enron, Amazon's workforce exploitations, numerous airlines that killed passengers and pilots by unethical maintenance practices, FoxConn's (Apple) suicide nets, Monsanto poisoning the world and lying about it, and so on. These are not good people - these are corporate killers who don't care one iota about you. If you think the way you are advocating, we WILL lose this battle and the war for the industry.

http://peteralanlloyd.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/peter-alan-lloyd-BACK-novel-backpackers-in-danger-sihanouk-trail-cambodian-jungle-US-secret-war-B52-bombing-in-cambodia-ratanakiri-province-khmer-rouge-5.jpg


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


Bless your heart Sir :p

DMEarc
05-12-2018, 09:38 PM
Sorry but even with a quality TA it will take me 13 years to offer any goodwill in return. Thatís how long it took me personally to get to where we are. Let that sink in. Everyone is different and I hate to be jaded but a good TA doesnít nulllfy all the abuses B6 has performed on our pilot group. A solid TA just stops the bleeding for now
3A, time and a half above 70hrs, profit sharing, healthcare, vacation. It will take a long time to recoup all the loses

You applied and were hired at a non-union airline. You chose to go to an outfit that could unilaterally change work rules and rates of pay. Your idea of self worth was skewed to begin.

Your company could care less if you helped them out. Good luck with your TA, guys. Congrats.

strumphie
05-12-2018, 11:29 PM
What is it with guys adding VDA, etc all of the sudden? We have nothing signed yet and should keep status quo until the entire group votes in a CBA. Why is anything changed at this point? We have work to do.

CaptCoolHand
05-13-2018, 03:07 AM
What is it with guys adding VDA, etc all of the sudden? We have nothing signed yet and should keep status quo until the entire group votes in a CBA. Why is anything changed at this point? We have work to do.

This. Nothing changes until signed.

benzoate
05-13-2018, 03:15 AM
You applied and were hired at a non-union airline. You chose to go to an outfit that could unilaterally change work rules and rates of pay. Your idea of self worth was skewed to begin.

Your company could care less if you helped them out. Good luck with your TA, guys. Congrats.

Yes and no. Some of us had little choice on where to go after furloughs. We didn't "choose" a non-union carrier. We needed to be employed because some of us had families to take care of.

All that being said if you would have gotten here at the beginning you would have felt the same way. After multiple furlough and dirt bag management from previous carriers this place was a welcome change. You actually wanted to believe it was different and for a short period of time it was.

Then the steady decline happened and we are where we are today.

Our self worth wasn't skewed sir. Our careers were.

PasserOGas
05-13-2018, 03:30 AM
What is it with guys adding VDA, etc all of the sudden? We have nothing signed yet and should keep status quo until the entire group votes in a CBA. Why is anything changed at this point? We have work to do.

Well, we are no longer in a labor dispute. Honestly I am about as jaded as they come, but what would refusing to be a helper gain you at this point? A better TA? Its already a done deal at this point. The company came to the table. The picket is cancelled. If we vote no and send it back, and the MEC calls a labor dispute then its game on.

My lanyard is still on, but my schedule just opened up.

Maybe your trigger is a CBA, and that is totally cool and I get it, but at some point we have to help fix this train wreck of a company. Our jobs depend on it.

blueballs
05-13-2018, 03:41 AM
Well, we are no longer in a labor dispute. Honestly I am about as jaded as they come, but what would refusing to be a helper gain you at this point? A better TA? Its already a done deal at this point. The company came to the table. The picket is cancelled. If we vote no and send it back, and the MEC calls a labor dispute then its game on.

My lanyard is still on, but my schedule just opened up.

Maybe your trigger is a CBA, and that is totally cool and I get it, but at some point we have to help fix this train wreck of a company. Our jobs depend on it.
Oh how quickly you switch. Itís not our job to help the company because of poor staffing, bad management, etc. grab that money get that extra credit. I guarantee youíll be back to complaining in a week

PasserOGas
05-13-2018, 04:28 AM
Oh how quickly you switch. Itís not our job to help the company because of poor staffing, bad management, etc. grab that money get that extra credit. I guarantee youíll be back to complaining in a week

Oh, I am under no illusions. Movement here still sucks, and I trust Hayes and Co as far as I can throw them. I have a very strong suspision I will be voting no to the TA. I still have my apps out.

What does not helping the business do for me right now? We talk about how we are so valuable to the operation as front line supervisors, let's prove it.

Management came to the table, in part, to smooth out the summer flying. If we don't deliver it will be harder to negotiate next time. Heck, we may be negotiating again in August if we vote this down. I want labor peace to mean something to the ELT when we talk about it at the table. I get it isn't my stated job per the CBA to help smooth errors in the operation, but it is implied in this deal.

All that said, I will NEVER pick up trash. Ever.

CaptCoolHand
05-13-2018, 04:30 AM
We are still in a labor dispute until this ink is dry. You havenít seen anything on paper. Nothing changes.

Well, we are no longer in a labor dispute. Honestly I am about as jaded as they come, but what would refusing to be a helper gain you at this point? A better TA? Its already a done deal at this point. The company came to the table. The picket is cancelled. If we vote no and send it back, and the MEC calls a labor dispute then its game on.

My lanyard is still on, but my schedule just opened up.

Maybe your trigger is a CBA, and that is totally cool and I get it, but at some point we have to help fix this train wreck of a company. Our jobs depend on it.

seekingblue
05-13-2018, 05:45 AM
Oh, I am under no illusions. Movement here still sucks, and I trust Hayes and Co as far as I can throw them. I have a very strong suspision I will be voting no to the TA. I still have my apps out.

What does not helping the business do for me right now? We talk about how we are so valuable to the operation as front line supervisors, let's prove it.

Management came to the table, in part, to smooth out the summer flying. If we don't deliver it will be harder to negotiate next time. Heck, we may be negotiating again in August if we vote this down. I want labor peace to mean something to the ELT when we talk about it at the table. I get it isn't my stated job per the CBA to help smooth errors in the operation, but it is implied in this deal.

All that said, I will NEVER pick up trash. Ever.

I sort of agree with you.

We do have an AIP. Negotiations are over and apparently the NC got what they thought was fair from the company. That said, itís a long path to a TA is a long one.

Iím not an RSA/VDA guy in general, but I have no heartburn if some else wants to pick up RSAs and VDAs now that we have an AIP in place. If the AIP fails to turn into a TA, I expect my fellow pilots to treat the operation like they do now.

As for the second part of your comments, I really donít care how the ELT views us. Iím a professional pilot and I care about doing professional pilot stuff. If the ELT isnít happy with how the pilot group is preforming, they should install better leaders.

Bilbo T Baggins
05-13-2018, 03:23 PM
What is it with guys adding VDA, etc all of the sudden? We have nothing signed yet and should keep status quo until the entire group votes in a CBA. Why is anything changed at this point? We have work to do.

Exactly. Nothing is signed!! If people want to show the company how much better it is if we have happy pilots, then let them know AFTER we have a CBA. Otherwise this is a perfect trap to just get them through the summer on more unearned pilot goodwill. I would hope the negotiating committee wouldnt agree to a crappy deal, but when us pilots vote yes on a CBA, THATíS when they should see the difference. No sooner.

Disappointing to see people fighting this fight so close to the sideline, and ready to sit on the bench so fast! My finger is off the trigger, but Iím not holstering anytime soon.

As per RSA/VDA. Every body has their own financial decisions to make, and I wonít knock anybody who does it when they are in a financial pickle. Life gets tough sometimes, and having the option to make extra money when you need to is nice. However, in a labor dispute, I will NOT pick up RSA/VDA. They can afford to pay me extra. Thatís no problem for them, but they need people, and not being available to them is where my value is truly seen. Thatís the message I want to make.

Lastly, I do want to echo some of the others. They are not ďgivingĒ us a contract. It is EARNED and it is OVERDUE....ANNNNNDDDD itís not going to make up for all the punches everybody has taken. Some of you might have Stockholm syndrome. We are fighting for our worth from a company who has shown they donít care about us. Iím not here to get patted on the back or to fly airplanes, Iím here to get paid.

Iím not saying to be a miserable person. Iím just saying until we get a CBA, itís SOP, no more, no less.

Big E 757
05-13-2018, 03:41 PM
So what are you guys hearing? Iíve read the entire thread and havenít seen a single number mentioned. Did I miss it or has the union not shared any numbers with you? Or are they asking you all to keep it quiet until the process is complete? I hope you got what you deserve! Good luck.

hilltopflyer
05-13-2018, 04:24 PM
So what are you guys hearing? Iíve read the entire thread and havenít seen a single number mentioned. Did I miss it or has the union not shared any numbers with you? Or are they asking you all to keep it quiet until the process is complete? I hope you got what you deserve! Good luck.

Very tight lipped. Even to people they know well. Sure something will leak soon.

Combatcraig
05-13-2018, 05:30 PM
Very tight lipped. Even to people they know well. Sure something will leak soon.

Wonít come from our MEC! Theyíve been a steel vault!

NightOwl
05-13-2018, 05:55 PM
So what are you guys hearing? Iíve read the entire thread and havenít seen a single number mentioned. Did I miss it or has the union not shared any numbers with you? Or are they asking you all to keep it quiet until the process is complete? I hope you got what you deserve! Good luck.

After reading the Spirit threads after they got their AIP, I'm actually glad nothing has been released. Nothing good comes from seeing a few bullet points before the actual TA comes out, just more division created amongst the pilot group.

Speedbird2263
05-13-2018, 08:40 PM
So what are you guys hearing? Iíve read the entire thread and havenít seen a single number mentioned. Did I miss it or has the union not shared any numbers with you? Or are they asking you all to keep it quiet until the process is complete? I hope you got what you deserve! Good luck.

The Union is keeping it quiet and also asking us to refrain from conjecture in the meantime. I'm anxious as well to see the details however with well over 1000+ days of negotiations, another ~20 days for a TA is a minor but necessary annoyance. I hope we find it palatable too.

Rickce7
05-13-2018, 10:22 PM
The Union is keeping it quiet and also asking us to refrain from conjecture in the meantime. I'm anxious as well to see the details however with well over 1000+ days of negotiations, another ~20 days for a TA is a minor but necessary annoyance. I hope we find it palatable too.
^^^^ Exactly this. . . ^^^^

atrdriver
05-14-2018, 07:31 AM
We are still in a labor dispute until this ink is dry. You havenít seen anything on paper. Nothing changes.

We have a lot of battered wives around here :rolleyes:

FLYBOYMATTHEW
05-14-2018, 09:34 AM
After reading the Spirit threads after they got their AIP, I'm actually glad nothing has been released. Nothing good comes from seeing a few bullet points before the actual TA comes out, just more division created amongst the pilot group.

The bullet points we received were pretty much focused on highlights, which made it feel like a sales job. We had to wait until the full TA was presented to see the lowlights, and by then, some already had their minds made up.

Opakapaka
05-14-2018, 09:43 AM
JetBlue Reaches Initial Labor Agreement With Pilots Union
05/12/2018
Bloomberg News Online

JetBlue Airways Corp. has reached an initial agreement with its pilots union, marking the first such accord in the carrier's history.

The deal, announced Friday by the Air Line Pilots Association and confirmed by JetBlue, will be reviewed by union leaders, who will make adjustments to the final contract language and decide whether to send it to members for a vote.

ďThis agreement in principle is the next step toward our final goal of having a fair and equitable contract with our company,Ē Patrick Walsh, head of the ALPA unit at JetBlue, said in a statement.

ALPA, which began representing JetBlue's pilots in 2014, declined to disclose details. JetBlue was ďpleasedĒ to reach the agreement, Jeff Martin, executive vice president operations, said in a statement touted as a ďdirect relationship

django
05-14-2018, 03:38 PM
Jeez queue you truly pontificate!
You confuse an enemy with an adversary.

queue
05-14-2018, 07:20 PM
Why accept only what you are presented? If the AIP text released to us sucks, WE need to rewrite it and get our servant union to jump for us. If they find it too difficult to fight for us, then we simply keep voting NO. There's no reason to accept false choices or controlled opposition. If the company wants to get this done quickly, exploit that vulnerability. I'm pretty sure they will manipulate everyone here, and even the union to cave in to some degree. The second someone tells you "this is the best we're going to get", then you know they are doing the work of management.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
05-14-2018, 07:41 PM
Why accept only what you are presented? If the AIP text released to us sucks, WE need to rewrite it and get our servant union to jump for us. If they find it too difficult to fight for us, then we simply keep voting NO. There's no reason to accept false choices or controlled opposition. If the company wants to get this done quickly, exploit that vulnerability. I'm pretty sure they will manipulate everyone here, and even the union to cave in to some degree. The second someone tells you "this is the best we're going to get", then you know they are doing the work of management.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Unfortunately this company has many, many Southerners and hyperboys who probably voted against joining ALPA, and can not wait to vote yes to any contract so they can gey back to blowing Robin Hayes and Co. Also, rumors are expectations are already being managed. Not good. Unless you are Southerner.

queue
05-14-2018, 08:12 PM
Unfortunately this company has many, many Southerners and hyperboys who probably voted against joining ALPA, and can not wait to vote yes to any contract so they can gey back to blowing Robin Hayes and Co. Also, rumors are expectations are already being managed. Not good. Unless you are Southerner.

Well hopefully more people will wake up and realize that this is ours to lose. All options are on the table and no one can take that away from us except our own lack of will and imagination. Robin is being pressured by his masters. Our disagreement with management is hurting their current agenda and they are being forced to entertain new ideas. I think if people freed their minds of the status quo or relativistic arguments of what has happened in the past history of union negotiations, then we can succeed.

"Managed expectations" is spot on, emphasis on the managed part.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

WHACKMASTER
05-15-2018, 01:47 AM
Well, we are no longer in a labor dispute. Honestly I am about as jaded as they come, but what would refusing to be a helper gain you at this point? A better TA? Its already a done deal at this point. The company came to the table. The picket is cancelled. If we vote no and send it back, and the MEC calls a labor dispute then its game on.

My lanyard is still on, but my schedule just opened up.

Maybe your trigger is a CBA, and that is totally cool and I get it, but at some point we have to help fix this train wreck of a company. Our jobs depend on it.

Lmao. Lemme get this straight.....you havenít even seen the details of your TA and youíre back to being a ďhelperĒ? Iím glad youíre not part of my pilot group. Clueless....

Southerner
05-15-2018, 03:15 AM
Unfortunately this company has many, many Southerners and hyperboys who probably voted against joining ALPA, and can not wait to vote yes to any contract so they can gey back to blowing Robin Hayes and Co. Also, rumors are expectations are already being managed. Not good. Unless you are Southerner.

Again, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You've formed a completely incorrect opinion about me.

PasserOGas
05-15-2018, 03:31 AM
Lmao. Lemme get this straight.....you havenít even seen the details of your TA and youíre back to being a ďhelperĒ? Iím glad youíre not part of my pilot group. Clueless....

I might have been a bit optimistic about our MEC and what they would agree to. What I am hearing now has me rescinding all of that.

Also, while I welcome imputs from other pilot groups regarding this process, coming into our forum and insulting people is a douche move.

Wasn't the last TA the only time SWA had to fight for pay in the least? Stop acting like YOU have any clue what is happening over here.

P-3Bubba
05-15-2018, 03:40 AM
Q comparing the Vietnam War to our Contract negotiations is a pretty tall order. But, anyways, the language of the the TA will be out soon and if it’s garbage then there’s no pressure taken off this summer. Guys will full press into a NO vote.

Q does present the need for the group to acknowledge that we may need to vote NO to the TA. It’s a real possibility.

However, look at the negative sentiment that seemed to permeate after the Spirit TA. Guys we’re saying no way they accept those work rules changes. A $40,000 signing bonus changes ALOT of opinions.

-Bubs

PS- Q has called me out as a teenage poster in using the the term “hater”. The only thing I can say is- Q, Don’t be a HATER!

Steelers
05-15-2018, 03:54 AM
I might have been a bit optimistic about our MEC and what they would agree to. What I am hearing now has me rescinding all of that.

Also, while I welcome imputs from other pilot groups regarding this process, coming into our forum and insulting people is a douche move.

Wasn't the last TA the only time SWA had to fight for pay in the least? Stop acting like YOU have any clue what is happening over here.


MEC says nothing has changed yet fly SOP. That's pretty easy instructions. No RSA/VDA, no extensions until we have a CBA that is fully implemented.

seekingblue
05-15-2018, 04:01 AM
I might have been a bit optimistic about our MEC and what they would agree to. What I am hearing now has me rescinding all of that.

Also, while I welcome imputs from other pilot groups regarding this process, coming into our forum and insulting people is a douche move.

Wasn't the last TA the only time SWA had to fight for pay in the least? Stop acting like YOU have any clue what is happening over here.

what have you been hearing? I couldn't believe the NC would bring a AIP to a vote that was less than Alaska. I think expectations should be Alaska plus a few percent with a few better work rules and a better reserve system.

nuball5
05-15-2018, 04:15 AM
what have you been hearing? I couldn't believe the NC would bring a AIP to a vote that was less than Alaska. I think expectations should be Alaska plus a few percent with a few better work rules and a better reserve system.

A bunch of people on BP's think they have all the answers. The fact of the matter is nothing in the AIP has been released. We've waited 3 years for a contract, we can all just relax and wait another 3 weeks to see it.

CaptCoolHand
05-15-2018, 04:31 AM
Weíve done this. We are not being presented with anything. Our N.C. negotiated what we will get. This is not the unilateral PEA.

Why donít you just stop, wait and see what our union has jumped up and gotten for us.

Why accept only what you are presented? If the AIP text released to us sucks, WE need to rewrite it and get our servant union to jump for us. If they find it too difficult to fight for us, then we simply keep voting NO. There's no reason to accept false choices or controlled opposition. If the company wants to get this done quickly, exploit that vulnerability. I'm pretty sure they will manipulate everyone here, and even the union to cave in to some degree. The second someone tells you "this is the best we're going to get", then you know they are doing the work of management.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
05-15-2018, 04:34 AM
MEC says nothing has changed yet fly SOP. That's pretty easy instructions. No RSA/VDA, no extensions until we have a CBA that is fully implemented.

The MEC has never given any guidance regarding RSA/VDA, extensions or anything resembling what you are sounding like. The choice to help out has always been a personal one. Lets make that clear.

I always assumed from my interactions with our MEC and people in the know, that he would never agree to a below market rate contract. I am now hearing rumblings of "Well we aren't Delta..." from union folks.

Hearing stuff like that fatigues me to where I don't have the energy to come in on my days off. Just me personally, you can do as you like.

seekingblue
05-15-2018, 04:41 AM
A bunch of people on BP's think they have all the answers. The fact of the matter is nothing in the AIP has been released. We've waited 3 years for a contract, we can all just relax and wait another 3 weeks to see it.

Asking a pilot to relax and wait patiently is much like asking a toddler to sit quietly for 2hrs.........

CaptCoolHand
05-15-2018, 04:58 AM
Asking a pilot to relax and wait patiently is much like asking a toddler to sit quietly for 2hrs.........

We are preprogrammed to do.
Nothing. Itís the hardest thing to do.

Do Nothing.

seekingblue
05-15-2018, 05:12 AM
We are preprogrammed to do.
Nothing. Itís the hardest thing to do.

Do Nothing.

Amen.


(filler)

pilotpayne
05-15-2018, 05:15 AM
A bunch of people on BP's think they have all the answers. The fact of the matter is nothing in the AIP has been released. We've waited 3 years for a contract, we can all just relax and wait another 3 weeks to see it.

Iím done with that site. Itís insanity and with the return of barny, (sequels are never good) itís just a total waste of time.

www.jblupilots.com

Itís not the jungle like BP, I hope more people post there.

We will see what they present us with and here is the good part, we get to VOTE.

P-3Bubba
05-15-2018, 05:17 AM
The MEC has never given any guidance regarding RSA/VDA, extensions or anything resembling what you are sounding like. The choice to help out has always been a personal one. Lets make that clear.

I always assumed from my interactions with our MEC and people in the know, that he would never agree to a below market rate contract. I am now hearing rumblings of "Well we aren't Delta..." from union folks.

Hearing stuff like that fatigues me to where I don't have the energy to come in on my days off. Just me personally, you can do as you like.

Relax Passer. Hearing this and that from Union folks means nothing. The NC and MEC knows what the pilot base wants and needs from this CBA. They had the most real time quantifiable data at their fingertips when they went to the table in April. (From the Survey)

The AIP, TA and CBA will reflect that.

-Bubs

PasserOGas
05-15-2018, 06:11 AM
Relax Passer. Hearing this and that from Union folks means nothing. The NC and MEC knows what the pilot base wants and needs from this CBA. They had the most real time quantifiable data at their fingertips when they went to the table in April. (From the Survey)

The AIP, TA and CBA will reflect that.

-Bubs

The survey is what scares me. With 25% of our pilots ALPA no voters and another 15% demoralized "I just want a CBA" people I wonder what exactly that survey looked like.

benzoate
05-15-2018, 06:14 AM
Q comparing the Vietnam War to our Contract negotiations is a pretty tall order. But, anyways, the language of the the TA will be out soon and if itís garbage then thereís no pressure taken off this summer. Guys will full press into a NO vote.

Q does present the need for the group to acknowledge that we may need to vote NO to the TA. Itís a real possibility.

However, look at the negative sentiment that seemed to permeate after the Spirit TA. Guys weíre saying no way they accept those work rules changes. A $40,000 signing bonus changes ALOT of opinions.

-Bubs

PS- Q has called me out as a teenage poster in using the the term ďhaterĒ. The only thing I can say is- Q, Donít be a HATER!

To be fair Spirit scheduling system allowed them to game the system and have trips bought for year. Management agreed to this in a prior contract but it was unreasonable to expect that provision to continue and hence much of the negative sentiment. In addition, many pilots voted YES based on a 40% increase in wages without understanding the 40% still kept them below industry standard.

Hopefully our MEC and pilot group will not make a similar mistake.

benzoate
05-15-2018, 06:17 AM
The survey is what scares me. With 25% of our pilots ALPA no voters and another 15% demoralized "I just want a CBA" people I wonder what exactly that survey looked like.

Agreed but if you ever spoke with any of the negotiators they made it very clear they would not put out a TA just to appease Jetblue. They feared what you mentioned above even though pilots indicated they expected more from the TA. They were adamant nothing would be agreed to unless it passed a super majority.

I was hoping to see something by Friday but last nights email made it sound like it could be longer.

pilotpayne
05-15-2018, 06:25 AM
Also every update about the surveys said that we had high expectations or something like that. I understand we are pilots but donít worry just to worry. Letís see what is in it first.

seekingblue
05-15-2018, 06:26 AM
Agreed but if you ever spoke with any of the negotiators they made it very clear they would not put out a TA just to appease Jetblue. They feared what you mentioned above even though pilots indicated they expected more from the TA. They were adamant nothing would be agreed to unless it passed a super majority.

I was hoping to see something by Friday but last nights email made it sound like it could be longer.

How long after the MEC gets briefed Can we expect to see bullet points released to the pilot group?

benzoate
05-15-2018, 06:31 AM
How long after the MEC gets briefed Can we expect to see bullet points released to the pilot group?

"The MEC will meet this week to review the AIP and determine the timeline for release of further information."

Thats all I know my friend. I suspect once the LEC's see the document information will slowly trickle out.

seekingblue
05-15-2018, 06:40 AM
"The MEC will meet this week to review the AIP and determine the timeline for release of further information."

Thats all I know my friend. I suspect once the LEC's see the document information will slowly trickle out.

I guess I could have just read the email... but thatís too much effort.

I certainly hope the MEC is going to release bullet points in the next week or so as opposed to waiting for the full contract language to get resolved before releasing.

benzoate
05-15-2018, 06:42 AM
I guess I could have just read the email... but thatís too much effort.

I certainly hope the MEC is going to release bullet points in the next week or so as opposed to waiting for the full contract language to get resolved before releasing.

I didn't want to pick on you so early in the morning.;)

Im hoping as well. I've been waiting over 15 years for this. Im anxious.

CaptCoolHand
05-15-2018, 06:45 AM
The survey is what scares me. With 25% of our pilots ALPA no voters and another 15% demoralized "I just want a CBA" people I wonder what exactly that survey looked like.

I have not seen the survey results but have been told on multiple occasions by different sources that have seen them. The survey results have very high expectations.

This group expects to be compensated in line with every other major carrier. Your NC has signed off on what they believe to be a market rate contract. In the next few days Your MEC will decide if the NC did their jobs and vote on sending it to the group for ratification.

Take a breath. Relax. just wait till info becomes available. You can be spooled up about it... but you’re still gonna have to wait.

The701Express
05-15-2018, 07:24 AM
The survey is what scares me. With 25% of our pilots ALPA no voters and another 15% demoralized "I just want a CBA" people I wonder what exactly that survey looked like.

Don't forget about the survey many of us took back in January and the many more pilots who wanted, but were unable to join us. That's not behavior indicative of a pilot group that's resigned itself to accepting a below average contract.

The message this pilot group sent that day wasn't just toward management, displaying our anger and discontentment, but was also a show of support to the negotiating committee, MEC, and all of the other ALPA volunteers who have been working at and/or away from the bargaining table to bring us to this point.

Having spoken with some of them at the picket and afterwards, I don't think that message has been forgotten.

Passer, the internet by its nature tends to blow the extreme and ridiculous positions out of proportion and give them more prominence than they would have in the real world. It's the behavior and actions of this pilot group and our union leadership that has earned my respect and causes me to place my trust in them. Without knowing anything else, that's all I'm willing to say until more information is presented to me.

No matter how much we speculate about what caused and AIP to be reached this month, or what it contains, it doesn't change the fact that we have zero information regarding any of it.

None of us knows the results from the latest survey.

None of us knows what is contained within this AIP.

What we do know is that a pivotal point in many of our careers is upon us. Let's get this right so we can look back at the end of our careers with pride rather than regret. Whether that's a yes or no vote, none of us can make that call until we have the TA in front of us.

We can't allow speculation to muddy the waters and negatively affect ourselves before we have some very important, fact based discussions regarding a TA, if/when that is presented to the pilot group.

My suggestion:

We've all been rowing hard for over three years, some of us even longer than that. We deserve a breather. The weather is beautiful again, it's the pre-summer lull, we all have our own ways of recovering and grounding ourselves. Whatever it is, do that, because once the details of a TA are released, it'll be either a mad dash to the finish line, or more rowing, depending how we vote. Regardless, we need to be rested and ready to pass this test. We may soon each have the honor of voting for or against the first Jetblue pilot CBA. Our collective efforts have set the bar pretty high so far, let's not falter after achieving so much already.

benzoate
05-15-2018, 08:00 AM
As I proceed back to work today nothing has changed for me. Hoping for the best, expecting the worst and still flying 100% SOP.

Bluedriver
05-15-2018, 08:01 AM
As I proceed back to work today nothing has changed for me. Hoping for the best, expecting the worst and still flying 100% SOP.

My good-will is UNAVAILABLE until my new pay rate is IN EFFECT.

benzoate
05-15-2018, 08:07 AM
My good-will is UNAVAILABLE until my new pay rate is IN EFFECT.
Its not unavailable its just moved. Like the premium trigger.:cool:

Bluedriver
05-15-2018, 08:43 AM
Its not unavailable its just moved. Like the premium trigger.:cool:

I still have the "caring" value, the company just removed the "trigger".

pilotpayne
05-15-2018, 08:48 AM
Its not unavailable its just moved. Like the premium trigger.:cool:

God I remember when RM said that. I was like WTF.

queue
05-15-2018, 09:46 AM
Q comparing the Vietnam War to our Contract negotiations is a pretty tall order. But, anyways, the language of the the TA will be out soon and if itís garbage then thereís no pressure taken off this summer. Guys will full press into a NO vote.

Q does present the need for the group to acknowledge that we may need to vote NO to the TA. Itís a real possibility.

Part of the union buster strategy in dragging this out is to demoralize the union and its people. Demoralization is a psychological weapon that is highly effective. They know that the longer things go on, psychologically people will just want to get over things done. They know how to weaponize psychology by growing it inside of you. You become your own worst enemy. That's why I'm so opposed to long dispute cycles and why I think the RLA needs time limits. Right now the company gets to fight this battle on terms and timeline of THEIR choosing. Thus, they will always have the upper hand. Psych ops combined with timeline.

On Day 1 we start with high standards for the contract.

On Day 1000 we have low standards because we just want to get over with it (accepting sloppy seconds).

They know this and it's by design.

We must fight this by not accepting ANY compromises on our requirements. Notice I said "requirements" vs. "wishes". For example, scope is a requirement whereas free Mint food guaranteed is a wish.

However, look at the negative sentiment that seemed to permeate after the Spirit TA. Guys weíre saying no way they accept those work rules changes. A $40,000 signing bonus changes ALOT of opinions.

-Bubs

PS- Q has called me out as a teenage poster in using the the term ďhaterĒ. The only thing I can say is- Q, Donít be a HATER!

Hopefully our people are smart enough not to sell out for monetary bait. We need to make sure everyone is onboard with pay AND rules without compromise or we will just end up unhappy for even more years. I guarantee you our careers can last a lot longer on strike than the careers of Robin and his VPs and SVPs. They are being pressured now by their overlords and we need to tighten the bolt to its torque specification, not just one or two turns. I promise you that the company and even the MEC will push some kind of compromise or false choices that we never have to accept.

Ok, I won't be a hater.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
05-15-2018, 09:47 AM
Our standards never dropped. You are a fool.

Part of the union buster strategy in dragging this out is to demoralize the union and its people. Demoralization is a psychological weapon that is highly effective. They know that the longer things go on, psychologically people will just want to get over things done. They know how to weaponize psychology by growing it inside of you. You become your own worst enemy. That's why I'm so opposed to long dispute cycles and why I think the RLA needs time limits. Right now the company gets to fight this battle on terms and timeline of THEIR choosing. Thus, they will always have the upper hand. Psych ops combined with timeline.

On Day 1 we start with high standards for the contract.

On Day 1000 we have low standards because we just want to get over with it (accepting sloppy seconds).

They know this and it's by design.

We must fight this by not accepting ANY compromises on our requirements. Notice I said "requirements" vs. "wishes". For example, scope is a requirement whereas free Mint food guaranteed is a wish.



Hopefully our people are smart enough not to sell out for monetary bait. We need to make sure everyone is onboard with pay AND rules without compromise or we will just end up unhappy for even more years. I guarantee you our careers can last a lot longer on strike than the careers of Robin and his VPs and SVPs. They are being pressured now by their overlords and we need to tighten the bolt to its torque specification, not just one or two turns. I promise you that the company and even the MEC will push some kind of compromise or false choices that we never have to accept.

Ok, I won't be a hater.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-15-2018, 10:02 AM
The survey is what scares me. With 25% of our pilots ALPA no voters and another 15% demoralized "I just want a CBA" people I wonder what exactly that survey looked like.

That is a huge concern. It points out that ALPA hasn't done the best job educating the pilot group of all the facts. I think if people knew all the facts then the cause would sell itself. The problem is that we can't easily just discuss all the bad things BJ has done (for example) because it exposes the accuser, the victim, and legally puts people in jeopardy. However, we can take lessons learned from other airlines (American's pay vs. rules, Spirit's buyer's remorse) and attack from that viewpoint.

We can also control the language and concepts. For example, financial analysts love to frame things into categories. Have you noticed that BJ is considered a LCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier)and so they group us with SWA or similar. There is no mention of stratification towards the legacy 3, albeit we compete with them. No one ever challenges these classifications. In a sense, it's the same thing done in politics by the anti-gun lobby ("assault weapons" - a completely fake, made up, arbitrary nomenclature used to create a literary nemesis).

In the end, LCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier) is a designation of no legal definition. It's a marketing term and is often used to limit our own expectations. I've heard so many people say "an airline of this size", which is total B.S. Last time I checked, our ticket prices can be as low as Spirit but as high as Delta/United/American.

This article by Motley Fool demands lots of criticism on their framing of concepts. (LCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier), increased pay compensated for by more productive work rules, etc.)

JetBlue Airways Closes in on a Pilot Contract (https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/05/15/jetblue-airways-closes-in-on-a-pilot-contract.aspx)

I hope we all decide not to allow wall street, the board, Robin & friends, the company apologists, and the media to define our thoughts by framing them in preconceived notions (e.g. we're just a LCC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-cost_carrier)).

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-15-2018, 10:06 AM
Our standards never dropped. You are a fool.

Why don't you ask around. Or, just read these boards. Of course standards have always been pathetically low so most people here suffer from being the frog in the boiling water.

I don't care if you call me names. I only care about ideas. However, if you are bothered enough to call me names, I hope you are bothered enough to vote NO if there are any compromises in our high standards.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-15-2018, 10:11 AM
Weíve done this. We are not being presented with anything. Our N.C. negotiated what we will get. This is not the unilateral PEA.

Why donít you just stop, wait and see what our union has jumped up and gotten for us.

Do I have a choice?

I'm merely reminding people that a NO vote needs to be on the table in case we are asked to compromise on requirements. This concept needs to be echo chambered to reach every cockpit.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

WHACKMASTER
05-15-2018, 10:45 AM
Wasn't the last TA the only time SWA had to fight for pay in the least? Stop acting like YOU have any clue what is happening over here.

Donít know. I was ďaquiredĒ not ďhiredĒ so I only know of the last contract cycle. What I do know is that you guys got an AIP and after several years of JBA $h!tting on you youíre still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

hyperboy
05-15-2018, 11:06 AM
Donít know. I was ďaquiredĒ not ďhiredĒ so I only know of the last contract cycle. What I do know is that you guys got an AIP and after several years of JBA $h!tting on you youíre still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

From your Avatar you were at AT? The Mesa of majors? Man worked out well for you being at SWA and all huh? Golden Ticket punched.

PasserOGas
05-15-2018, 11:30 AM
Donít know. I was ďaquiredĒ not ďhiredĒ so I only know of the last contract cycle. What I do know is that you guys got an AIP and after several years of JBA $h!tting on you youíre still willing to give them the benefit of the doubt.

Dude. You need to read more of my posts before you come in here spouting off.

Speedbird2263
05-15-2018, 03:41 PM
Don't forget about the survey many of us took back in January and the many more pilots who wanted, but were unable to join us. That's not behavior indicative of a pilot group that's resigned itself to accepting a below average contract.

The message this pilot group sent that day wasn't just toward management, displaying our anger and discontentment, but was also a show of support to the negotiating committee, MEC, and all of the other ALPA volunteers who have been working at and/or away from the bargaining table to bring us to this point.

Having spoken with some of them at the picket and afterwards, I don't think that message has been forgotten.

Passer, the internet by its nature tends to blow the extreme and ridiculous positions out of proportion and give them more prominence than they would have in the real world. It's the behavior and actions of this pilot group and our union leadership that has earned my respect and causes me to place my trust in them. Without knowing anything else, that's all I'm willing to say until more information is presented to me.

No matter how much we speculate about what caused and AIP to be reached this month, or what it contains, it doesn't change the fact that we have zero information regarding any of it.

None of us knows the results from the latest survey.

None of us knows what is contained within this AIP.

What we do know is that a pivotal point in many of our careers is upon us. Let's get this right so we can look back at the end of our careers with pride rather than regret. Whether that's a yes or no vote, none of us can make that call until we have the TA in front of us.

We can't allow speculation to muddy the waters and negatively affect ourselves before we have some very important, fact based discussions regarding a TA, if/when that is presented to the pilot group.

My suggestion:

We've all been rowing hard for over three years, some of us even longer than that. We deserve a breather. The weather is beautiful again, it's the pre-summer lull, we all have our own ways of recovering and grounding ourselves. Whatever it is, do that, because once the details of a TA are released, it'll be either a mad dash to the finish line, or more rowing, depending how we vote. Regardless, we need to be rested and ready to pass this test. We may soon each have the honor of voting for or against the first Jetblue pilot CBA. Our collective efforts have set the bar pretty high so far, let's not falter after achieving so much already.

Well said, I concur with this. ^^^

rvr1800
05-15-2018, 06:00 PM
From your Avatar you were at AT? The Mesa of majors? Man worked out well for you being at SWA and all huh? Golden Ticket punched.

What an ignorant comment. Yeah we at jetBlue have always been making this industry better. :rolleyes:

rvr1800
05-15-2018, 06:02 PM
I think the MEC has to release at least some bullet points of this thing. Things are spiraling with all this speculation.

The Spirit MEC released their bullet points almost immediately.

WHACKMASTER
05-15-2018, 06:30 PM
From your Avatar you were at AT? The Mesa of majors? Man worked out well for you being at SWA and all huh? Golden Ticket punched.

Lmao. The Mesa of majors? Thatís rich. In the long term it should work out well. Not so much the short term.

RiddleEagle18
05-15-2018, 06:57 PM
I think the MEC has to release at least some bullet points of this thing. Things are spiraling with all this speculation.



The Spirit MEC released their bullet points almost immediately.



A lot easier to release bullet point changes to a contract rather than bullet point for an entirely new contract.

Honestly I hope they donít release anything until full language.

No one should be making a decision until they see the contract IN FULL.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Bilbo T Baggins
05-15-2018, 07:34 PM
Dude. You need to read more of my posts before you come in here spouting off.

While Whackmaster didnít say it eloquently, he/she is not wrong. We havenít seen anything in writing, we arenít even close to voting, and the company hasnít shown any goodwill up until this point, which could still be a nice shlt sandwich with a bow on top just to get us through the summer. Yet, youíre ďopening upĒ your schedule? Your financial situation is YOUR business, but I was a little shocked to see people asking about keeping the lanyard on or picking up RSA/VDA. Like somebody else said, just keep rowing until you see the finish line, then row like heII! Now, I donít suspect the N.C. agreed to a shlt sandwich, but itís not like people have never voted NO before.... just hang in there man!

rvr1800
05-16-2018, 02:35 AM
A lot easier to release bullet point changes to a contract rather than bullet point for an entirely new contract.

Honestly I hope they donít release anything until full language.

No one should be making a decision until they see the contract IN FULL.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I disagree. Theyíve got all the compensation items done. Yes there is some final language that needs to be completed but thereís no reason not to release what they have. Keeping it secret will not prevent massive speculation and infighting. That has been clearly demonstrated on this board and much more so on bluepilots. At least if they release the details they have we can then fight about actual facts.

hilltopflyer
05-16-2018, 04:05 AM
Whhh I'd rather wait to get everything at once. I know I want to know what's in there but at least people won't get their mind made up because of 10-15 bullet points.

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 04:40 AM
I disagree. Theyíve got all the compensation items done. Yes there is some final language that needs to be completed but thereís no reason not to release what they have. Keeping it secret will not prevent massive speculation and infighting. That has been clearly demonstrated on this board and much more so on bluepilots. At least if they release the details they have we can then fight about actual facts.

The only problem there is the facts may not be facts until the final language is written.

Information will come out after the MEC sees it today and tomorrow.

PowderFinger
05-16-2018, 04:43 AM
From your Avatar you were at AT? The Mesa of majors? Man worked out well for you being at SWA and all huh? Golden Ticket punched.

I thought Value Jet acquired AirTran for the name since the VJ name had so much stink. Also thought AT refused the first SW offer that would have been better than what they got and one of the AT union members warned what would happen.

I think hyper nailed it for once.

RiddleEagle18
05-16-2018, 05:03 AM
The difference between a, shall, will, must and ďat the discretionĒ can change everything.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 05:18 AM
I thought Value Jet acquired AirTran for the name since the VJ name had so much stink. Also thought AT refused the first SW offer that would have been better than what they got and one of the AT union members warned what would happen.

I think hyper nailed it for once.

Except Hyper is the "pot calling the kettle black".

We ain't exactly making the industry proud the last several years.

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 05:22 AM
I for one think they should release the bullet points as soon as they can. We will ALL have the full language before voting, so keeping the highlights from us doesn't really accomplish anything, in my opinion.

I think it's more standard practice to release the bullet points well before the full language.

rvr1800
05-16-2018, 05:26 AM
The only problem there is the facts may not be facts until the final language is written.

Information will come out after the MEC sees it today and tomorrow.

Well the major items have been agreed to and they will not change. As riddle said the final language is important, ie. shall, must, may, but the hourly rate, 401k contribution, rigs, etc. are agreed to. I see no harm in releasing that. As bluedriver said we will all still get to review the entire TA before voting on it. Throw us a bone. Itís been a long time coming and I think it could help quell some of he hysteria that has started.

RiddleEagle18
05-16-2018, 05:47 AM
Well the major items have been agreed to and they will not change. As riddle said the final language is important, ie. shall, must, may, but the hourly rate, 401k contribution, rigs, etc. are agreed to. I see no harm in releasing that. As bluedriver said we will all still get to review the entire TA before voting on it. Throw us a bone. Itís been a long time coming and I think it could help quell some of he hysteria that has started.



Thatís exactly the problem though. They donít want people making a decision strictly in those few items.

Guys will see the bullet points and immediately make a decision.

If pilots are one thing itís stubborn. They wonít change their mind when the full language comes out because they already told all their buddies how they are voting no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

capt707
05-16-2018, 06:00 AM
That’s exactly the problem though. They don’t want people making a decision strictly in those few items.

Guys will see the bullet points and immediately make a decision.

If pilots are one thing it’s stubborn. They won’t change their mind when the full language comes out because they already told all their buddies how they are voting no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Honestly, it doesn't matter. Pilots are dumb, especially our group. I guarantee you 90% of our guys will go straight to section 3 when the whole TA comes out and look at the compensation first, instead of section 1, which is the most important!

queue
05-16-2018, 06:02 AM
The Spirit MEC released their bullet points almost immediately.

It would save a lot of time.

If it doesn't include "no cleaning" or some other deal breaker, then why waste time writing any contract language? Or if they want to waste time, they can do it while we say no to the first item.

I'd rather stream my disapprovals to the MEC to save time. If we get the whole thing in one lump, psychologically we will be maneuvered into some B.S. "balanced" "compromise" where it has carrots combined with lumps of coal. Then we will hear things like "this is the best we will get" from the MEC and BJ, then pilots will simply settle for crumbs. There simply is no historical precedent to trust anyone and especially BJ, and even if there were, it would still be foolish to trust.

NO COMPROMISES!


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
05-16-2018, 06:02 AM
Except Hyper is the "pot calling the kettle black".

We ain't exactly making the industry proud the last several years.


While you continue with your coward bullying. Man up call me if you want the truth rather than your "fake news"


Love your name Blue Driver....Is that your license plate as well?

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 06:04 AM
Honestly, it doesn't matter. Pilots are dumb, especially our group. I guarantee you 90% of our guys will go straight to section 3 when the whole TA comes out and look at the compensation first, instead of section 1, which is the most important!

:D-- So true. I know ill probably do it. And I KNOW that rates are of relatively low importance. Lookin at pay rates is like eating M&Ms though.
#bulletpoints;)

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 06:10 AM
Thatís exactly the problem though. They donít want people making a decision strictly in those few items.

Guys will see the bullet points and immediately make a decision.

If pilots are one thing itís stubborn. They wonít change their mind when the full language comes out because they already told all their buddies how they are voting no.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't know dude, guys are all gonna say they voted NO and it will pass 85-15...

1. If the bullet points come out and it looks awful, and you feel like you might vote NO, and then the full language comes out and it's the best contract in the history of aviation, are you not going to vote YES?

2. If the bullet points come out and it looks pretty good, and then the full language comes and it's a worse contract than Mesa or Frontier's current contract, are you not going to vote NO?

I just think we are ALL going to have a LONG time to review the full language before voting, we will ALL have an opportunity to make a well informed vote. Giving a highlights bullet point is pretty standard, and that's what I think they should do soon.

The main reason I think they may not do that is the changes to PTOSB and not wanting to promt a "run on the bank"...

capt707
05-16-2018, 06:12 AM
It is going to pass no matter what.

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 06:13 AM
:D-- So true. I know ill probably do it. And I KNOW that rates are of relatively low importance. Lookin at pay rates is like eating M&Ms though.
#bulletpoints;)

You have to, because you need to have a number to work with as you calculate your rigs and rules.

Rates are nothing without rules

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 06:14 AM
While you continue with your coward bullying. Man up call me if you want the truth rather than your "fake news"


Love your name Blue Driver....Is that your license plate as well?

Can you try and complete an argument just once? What did I say that was untrue?

HAVE JB PILOTS PAY, WORK RULES AND BENEFITS BEEN MAKING THE INDUSTRY PROUD THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS OR HAVE WE BEEN AT OR NEAR THE BOTTOM???

Actually defend your drive-by garbage sandwiches for once.

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 06:14 AM
It is going to pass no matter what.

Hopefully it passes because the N.C. did a great job and it doesnít suck.

seekingblue
05-16-2018, 06:21 AM
Hopefully it passes because the N.C. did a great job and it doesnít suck.

This. 1000% this.

pilotpayne
05-16-2018, 06:26 AM
Can you try and complete an argument just once? What did I say that was untrue?

HAVE JB PILOTS PAY, WORK RULES AND BENEFITS BEEN MAKING THE INDUSTRY PROUD THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS OR HAVE WE BEEN AT OR NEAR THE BOTTOM???

Actually defend your drive-by garbage sandwiches for once.

As Iím sure you would agree there is stuff to be proud of. We had one of the highest Alpa votes ever, had a huge turnout in the freaking freezing cold to march on LSC, we have driven some culture changes here. We are sitting here with an AIP and were the first group to unionize at jetblue, from what I understand we were about to have another rather large rally. So while we most likely could have done this faster and should have voted in ALPA long ago I think in those areas we can be proud about our position in the industry. Thatís not directed at you bluedriver, just me being me.

queue
05-16-2018, 06:28 AM
Hopefully it passes because the N.C. did a great job and it doesnít suck.

We shall see... I'm not trusting till the final verbiage is available because it's negotiated by airline pilots who have a false sense of normalcy. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the are beaten down and already accustomed to low standards. Everyone around them (e.g. national ALPA and other pilots) breed a culture of unnecessary compromise. They already brushed me off when I mentioned some legalisms I wanted to see in the contract.

Too many people were too happy with the smoke & mirrors PEA which I consider to be worthless, since it always ends in arbitration (bribed by the company). 3A proves my point.

NO COMPROMISES.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 06:31 AM
As Iím sure you would agree there is stuff to be proud of. We had one of the highest Alpa votes ever, had a huge turnout in the freaking freezing cold to march on LSC, we have driven some culture changes here. We are sitting here with an AIP and were the first group to unionize at jetblue, from what I understand we were about to have another rather large rally. So while we most likely could have done this faster and should have voted in ALPA long ago I think in those areas we can be proud about our position in the industry. Thatís not directed at you bluedriver, just me being me.

Sure, and Airtran pilots weren't cowering in the fetal position just happy to be there either.

But I did ask specifically about our pay, work rules and benefits.

How have they been the last several years compared to our peers?

You think it's totally fair for a JB pilot to talk down to a former Airtran pilot about being the "Mesa of the Majors"?

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 06:33 AM
We shall see... I'm not trusting till the final verbiage is available because it's negotiated by airline pilots who have a false sense of normalcy. Whether they acknowledge it or not, the are beaten down and already accustomed to low standards. Everyone around them (e.g. national ALPA and other pilots) breed a culture of unnecessary compromise. They already brushed me off when I mentioned some legalisms I wanted to see in the contract.

Too many people were too happy with the smoke & mirrors PEA which I consider to be worthless, since it always ends in arbitration (bribed by the company). 3A proves my point.

NO COMPROMISES.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
So what should we get? Give us your bulletpoints Q.
Thats a serious question, since it would appear you are already a NO.

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 06:54 AM
We shall see... I'm not trusting till the final verbiage is available


Good thanks
Letís table the speculation and yes or no votes until we can all read the details.

queue
05-16-2018, 06:58 AM
So what should we get? Give us your bulletpoints Q.
Thats a serious question, since it would appear you are already a NO.

I can't do that here because it involves confidential subject matter.

However, if someone takes it upon themselves to amass a list of "requirements" for the contract that we can all anonymously amend, some specific things may appear...................... perhaps when the language is released to us, then we can work together online to pick apart the contract and amend stuff the NC omitted.................

All I can really say now is that we are under no legal requirement to agree to what BJ and ALPA push to us. Our power is in saying NO and going to strike.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
05-16-2018, 07:01 AM
Can you try and complete an argument just once? What did I say that was untrue?

HAVE JB PILOTS PAY, WORK RULES AND BENEFITS BEEN MAKING THE INDUSTRY PROUD THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS OR HAVE WE BEEN AT OR NEAR THE BOTTOM???

Actually defend your drive-by garbage sandwiches for once.


What did I say that was untrue to Whackmaster that you JUST had to say something?

You shut your mouth when you're talking to me.

hyperboy
05-16-2018, 07:04 AM
Sure, and Airtran pilots weren't cowering in the fetal position just happy to be there either.

But I did ask specifically about our pay, work rules and benefits.

How have they been the last several years compared to our peers?

You think it's totally fair for a JB pilot to talk down to a former Airtran pilot about being the "Mesa of the Majors"?

I can have an opinion just like you can have yours. I thought we weren't talking?


You be quiet while the adults are talking!......We will address you when it is your turn.

BeatNavy
05-16-2018, 07:29 AM
Good thanks
Letís table the speculation and yes or no votes until we can all read the details.

Well thatís no fun, and is counter to the norms on the forums and internets.

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 07:34 AM
I can have an opinion just like you can have yours. I thought we weren't talking?


You be quiet while the adults are talking!......We will address you when it is your turn.

Um yeah, keep running your mouth little man. Trust me, I'm not exactly insecure with my manhood dude...

What you did wrong was call a former Airtran pilot a "Mesa of the Majors" pilot, while up until 4 days ago (and even technically still now) *YOU* are a "Mesa of the Majors" pilot yourself.

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 08:01 AM
Well thatís no fun, and is counter to the norms on the forums and internets.

I know... Sorry, carry on.

If I had to make a total WAG I'd say things will become more interesting and factual after tomorrow.

rvr1800
05-16-2018, 08:26 AM
I know... Sorry, carry on.

If I had to make a total WAG I'd say things will become more interesting and factual after tomorrow.

Why tomorrow? Isnít the presentation to the MEC today?

CaptCoolHand
05-16-2018, 08:50 AM
Why tomorrow? Isn’t the presentation to the MEC today?

I don't know... It takes longer to read and comprehend a CBA than a PEA?

The company wants to tell investors that we're done with the fleet review and don't want us to steel their thunder with C rates?
We're buying Frontier?
United is buying us?

it's sealed up like a vault. I've got no good intel.

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 09:02 AM
I don't know... It takes longer to read and comprehend a CBA than a PEA?

The company wants to tell investors that we're done with the fleet review and don't want us to steel their thunder with C rates?
We're buying Frontier?
United is buying us?

it's sealed up like a vault. I've got no good intel.

No good intel?? Thats when you make it up CCH. :D
And United IS buying us...; wish there was a fingers crossed emoji.

Bwipilot
05-16-2018, 09:22 AM
And United IS buying us...; wish there was a fingers crossed emoji.

Said the US Airways pilots in 2000

pilotpayne
05-16-2018, 09:24 AM
Sure, and Airtran pilots weren't cowering in the fetal position just happy to be there either.

But I did ask specifically about our pay, work rules and benefits.

How have they been the last several years compared to our peers?

You think it's totally fair for a JB pilot to talk down to a former Airtran pilot about being the "Mesa of the Majors"?

Um thatís not what I said at all.
Good job shifting the argument. I talked about what we could be proud of. Notice I didnít talk about pay and work rules. Heck I wasnít even sticking up for hyper. You know you get all over me if you think Iím attacking you but sometimes I think you intentionally take things out of context to argue a point.

Am I proud of our work rules or pay F no but I am damn proud of our choice to vote in ALPA of the 700 guys that froze around lsc, of an AIP and a future contract built from scratch and to be part of the group that votes on our first ever contract. But I already said that.

pilotpayne
05-16-2018, 09:26 AM
I don't know... It takes longer to read and comprehend a CBA than a PEA?

The company wants to tell investors that we're done with the fleet review and don't want us to steel their thunder with C rates?
We're buying Frontier?
United is buying us?

it's sealed up like a vault. I've got no good intel.


Oh I think one of those is close.

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 09:35 AM
Said the US Airways pilots in 2000

Yup and the B6 pilots of today. Different times. Its all best guess right?:rolleyes:

Hercbubba
05-16-2018, 09:41 AM
I’d say there are maybe 10 of you guys out of 3500+ pilots making arguments on this site. No matter what the TA will say, chances are the 85% vote will be a yes. If everyone didn’t care about picking up VDA/RSA over the last 3 years, then you can plan on those same people voting yes to a 20% pay raise, 16% 401K, better RSV rules and having sick/vacation leave instead of PTO. Those are just educated numbers and scenarios, not anything given/proposed. Even if it’s 15%, 15%, better RSV and PTO staying the same, it will pass...

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 09:43 AM
I’d say there are maybe 10 of you guys out of 3500+ pilots making arguments on this site. No matter what the TA will say, chances are the 85% vote will be a yes. If everyone didn’t care about picking up VDA/RSA over the last 3 years, then you can plan on those same people voting yes to a 19% pay raise, 16% 401K, better RSV rules and having sick/vacation leave instead of PTO. Those are just educated numbers and scenarios, not anything given/proposed. Even if it’s 15%, 15%, better RSV and PTO staying the same, it will pass...

Prob true Herc. Id say the NC got some above average stuff to sweeten this thing. We need a bonus though- thoughts?

Hercbubba
05-16-2018, 09:46 AM
If they throw in a bonus of 10k or above, itís a done deal. Think of the pilot corps. All the people over 40 that they regularly hire, have to pay bills from the last 20 years of debt they had from working at regionals. Money is the answer to 99 out of 100 problems!

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 10:41 AM
Um thatís not what I said at all.
Good job shifting the argument. I talked about what we could be proud of. Notice I didnít talk about pay and work rules. Heck I wasnít even sticking up for hyper. You know you get all over me if you think Iím attacking you but sometimes I think you intentionally take things out of context to argue a point.

Am I proud of our work rules or pay F no but I am damn proud of our choice to vote in ALPA of the 700 guys that froze around lsc, of an AIP and a future contract built from scratch and to be part of the group that votes on our first ever contract. But I already said that.

I'm very proud of many of those things as well. But those things weren't the topic of the post you responded to.

No need to further the argument.

Beer me.

pilotpayne
05-16-2018, 11:00 AM
I'm very proud of many of those things as well. But those things weren't the topic of the post you responded to.

No need to further the argument.

Beer me.

I prefer bourbon.

Anyway.

Maybe the union is so quiet because the company asked them to be.
I think we all agree that the company didnít just suddenly have a change of heart and said we love and respect you guys here you go.
Maybe they needed this done to tie in with future growth plans and payscales for aircraft we donít have yet. Our AIP could have C rates or 321lr stuff in it. So as not to steal the companyís thunder they havenít put anything out yet. I think tomorrow might clear it up. Itís all a guess and an optimistic guess but something seems to be going on.

Yeah yeah I know big announcement tomorrow......and tomorrow and tomorrow.

queue
05-16-2018, 11:24 AM
If they throw in a bonus of 10k or above, itís a done deal. Think of the pilot corps. All the people over 40 that they regularly hire, have to pay bills from the last 20 years of debt they had from working at regionals. Money is the answer to 99 out of 100 problems!


I sincerely hope you are joking.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 12:44 PM
I prefer bourbon.

Anyway.

Maybe the union is so quiet because the company asked them to be.
I think we all agree that the company didnít just suddenly have a change of heart and said we love and respect you guys here you go.
Maybe they needed this done to tie in with future growth plans and payscales for aircraft we donít have yet. Our AIP could have C rates or 321lr stuff in it. So as not to steal the companyís thunder they havenít put anything out yet. I think tomorrow might clear it up. Itís all a guess and an optimistic guess but something seems to be going on.

Yeah yeah I know big announcement tomorrow......and tomorrow and tomorrow.

Come back TOMORROW for FREE BEER!








But yes, you may well be right on the above.

capt707
05-16-2018, 02:24 PM
Yeah yeah I know big announcement tomorrow......and tomorrow and tomorrow.

My guess is 321LR announcement tomorrow, on property by end of 2019, going to Europe in 2020.

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 02:35 PM
My guess is 321LR announcement tomorrow, on property by end of 2019, going to Europe in 2020.

Juicer!











I agree, that's my guess. Maybe C order as well since Airbus would probably give them a better deal on the package.

The701Express
05-16-2018, 02:52 PM
Juicer!











I agree, that's my guess. Maybe C order as well since Airbus would probably give them a better deal on the package.

I wouldn't expect any announcement regarding the CSeries so soon. Airbus can't coordinate commercially with Bombardier until they receive antitrust approval, which is expected by the end of June.

Its possible those could both happen tomorrow, but I'm doubtful. The Airbus sales team will start making the big sales push once the approval is announced. There's speculation that an order could be put together in time for the Farnborough airshow in July, so I'm not sure expecting much until then.

Having said all that, I eagerly await being proven wrong tomorrow and the accompanying ridicule that will be deserved.

seekingblue
05-16-2018, 03:29 PM
MEC email is out.

AIP approved. Bullet points tomorrow.

hilltopflyer
05-16-2018, 04:17 PM
MEC email is out.

AIP approved. Bullet points tomorrow.

Approved 12-0 by mec, 'market rate' contract in their words.

Papa Bear
05-16-2018, 04:25 PM
It needs at least a six in it with a signing bonus...

Bluedriver
05-16-2018, 05:02 PM
MEC email is out.

AIP approved. Bullet points tomorrow.

No, don't put out bullet points! Pilots is stupid, NO INFO!






That was fun.

PasserOGas
05-16-2018, 05:19 PM
"Market rate" "Meets the overall demands"

Kinda weak language.

Expecting a sales job, only positive bullet points. My bet is lower payscales than the legacy 320 pilots by a few bucks.

A month from now when everyone has descided to vote yes the full doc will be published with all the "gotchas".

Then, we will pass a substandard contract.

*Sigh*

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 05:23 PM
"Market rate" "Meets the overall demands"

Kinda weak language.

Expecting a sales job, only positive bullet points. My bet is lower payscales than the legacy 320 pilots by a few bucks.

A month from now when everyone has descided to vote yes the full doc will be published with all the "gotchas".

Then, we will pass a substandard contract.

*Sigh*
So you have zero trust in the NC/MEC eh?
Think theyre trying to sell us a lemon?
Maybe...:confused:

PasserOGas
05-16-2018, 05:26 PM
So you have zero trust in the NC/MEC eh?
Think theyre trying to sell us a lemon?
Maybe...:confused:

Hope not, but my socks werent blown off by that email. I have heard things around the water cooler that have tempered my expectations.

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 05:31 PM
Hope not, but my socks werent blown off by that email. I have heard things around the water cooler that have tempered my expectations.

I think tempered expectations were the desired response. I expect some standard and some above standard stuff.
I just doubt the NC would settle after this much time invested. But who knows. Tomorrow will be interesting between AIP details and possible company announcement. Probably not coincidenCS, but lets not LingeR on this.:D

rvr1800
05-16-2018, 05:33 PM
Market rate has been the term theyíve used for years now. If they used ďindustry leading contractĒ people would be mad when we had a dollar less an hour than someone. Market rate will be industry leading in areas and probably also behind in some areas. We shall see.

I have faith in the NC. The MEC passed it unanimously. Thatís a big deal.

rvr1800
05-16-2018, 05:35 PM
I think tempered expectations were the desired response. I expect some standard and some above standard stuff.
I just doubt the NC would settle after this much time invested. But who knows. Tomorrow will be interesting between AIP details and possible company announcement. Probably not coincidenCS, but lets not LingeR on this.:D

Haha I see what you did there. Where did these company announcement rumors start? Did I miss an email?

BunkerF16
05-16-2018, 05:45 PM
"Market rate" "Meets the overall demands"

Kinda weak language.

Expecting a sales job, only positive bullet points. My bet is lower payscales than the legacy 320 pilots by a few bucks.

A month from now when everyone has descided to vote yes the full doc will be published with all the "gotchas".

Then, we will pass a substandard contract.

*Sigh*

Have you not been reading the union emails? They've almost always stated that we are looking for a "market rate" contract. Always. Why is this such a shock to you?

Bozo the pilot
05-16-2018, 05:48 PM
Haha I see what you did there. Where did these company announcement rumors start? Did I miss an email?

Na- Im just conflating the shareholder meetings with bulletpoints and fleet review completion rumors.
I dont have a ****in clue- Im a bozo;)

queue
05-16-2018, 06:07 PM
Approved 12-0 by mec, 'market rate' contract in their words.

Market rate?

What happened to industry leading???


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-16-2018, 06:09 PM
So you have zero trust in the NC/MEC eh?
Think theyre trying to sell us a lemon?
Maybe...:confused:

Has BJ ever screwed us over? Many times.

Has a NC or MEC ever screwed its members? Many times.

Why would anyone have a logical reason to blindly trust?

Vote NO to substandard contracts! Accept no compromises. If we can't win now, we never will.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

David Puddy
05-16-2018, 06:34 PM
Haha I see what you did there. Where did these company announcement rumors start? Did I miss an email?

Could this be the announcement?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-orlando-airport-jet-blue-20180516-story.html

BeatNavy
05-16-2018, 06:37 PM
Could this be the announcement?

Orlando airport plans for JetBlue to anchor new terminal - Orlando Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-orlando-airport-jet-blue-20180516-story.html)

Part 2...itíll be home to our 100 new A210/230s.

RiddleEagle18
05-16-2018, 06:58 PM
Could this be the announcement?



http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-orlando-airport-jet-blue-20180516-story.html



Already been put out in company email. Rumored for over a year.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

David Puddy
05-16-2018, 07:00 PM
Part 2...itíll be home to our 100 new A210/230s.

This would be excellent! ;)

Speedbird2263
05-17-2018, 01:46 AM
Part 2...itíll be home to our 100 new A210/230s.

A230, A320...donít they know every 3 in 1 pilots are Dyslexic.

Iím definitely in favor of 100+ of either Jet.

Softpayman
05-17-2018, 02:24 AM
A230, A320...donít they know every 3 in 1 pilots are Dyslexic.

Iím definitely in favor of 100+ of either Jet.

Theyíre saying Airbus may rename the CSeries the A200 when their deal goes through.

atrdriver
05-17-2018, 03:23 AM
They’re saying Airbus may rename the CSeries the A200 when their deal goes through.

Sorry, Speedbird..... Lowpayman didn't catch your joke. The rest of us did though. :D

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 03:40 AM
Could this be the announcement?

Orlando airport plans for JetBlue to anchor new terminal - Orlando Sentinel (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/os-orlando-airport-jet-blue-20180516-story.html)

Dave- you'll finally get that big commission check;)

CaptCoolHand
05-17-2018, 03:47 AM
JetBlue to Webcast Presentation at the Wolfe Research Transports Conference (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=54149)

Did they move the investor call from the 17th to the 22nd or did I miss something?

todd1200
05-17-2018, 04:14 AM
JetBlue to Webcast Presentation at the Wolfe Research Transports Conference (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=54149)

Did they move the investor call from the 17th to the 22nd or did I miss something?

Thatís a different presentation.

https://east.virtualshareholdermeeting.com/vsm/web?pvskey=jblu2018

rvr1800
05-17-2018, 04:17 AM
JetBlue to Webcast Presentation at the Wolfe Research Transports Conference (http://otp.investis.com/clients/us/jetblue_airways/usn/usnews-story.aspx?cid=981&newsid=54149)

Did they move the investor call from the 17th to the 22nd or did I miss something?

Thatís strange. I canít find anything referencing today. Maybe theyíve already removed it from their events calendar since itís today? Iím starting to believe some of these rumors.

CaptCoolHand
05-17-2018, 04:19 AM
Thatís a different presentation.

https://east.virtualshareholdermeeting.com/vsm/web?pvskey=jblu2018

Right on thanks 👍🏼

todd1200
05-17-2018, 04:28 AM
And thereís a control number under ďproxy materialsĒ in your Fidelity acct., that might work to login (the votes were due yesterday, so I think itís associated with this meeting).

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 05:14 AM
Bullet points are out....



discuss.

BTpilot
05-17-2018, 05:20 AM
Quite frankly, Iím surprised..

Our MEC listened and made it happen

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 05:26 AM
I actually really like the bullet points.

$259/ 12 year airbus CA moving to $274 by 2021

littlefuz
05-17-2018, 05:31 AM
Could you please share them? I am currently in phase 2 and excited to see what they are.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 05:31 AM
I actually really like the bullet points.

$259/ 12 year airbus CA moving to $274 by 2021

I certainly do NOT.

Codified TODAYS profit sharing. Are you KIDDING me?

Delta guys can buy a new car with their profit sharing. I can buy the Jelly of the Month Club.

And our margins are similar!

Acehole
05-17-2018, 05:39 AM
I certainly do NOT.

Codified TODAYS profit sharing. Are you KIDDING me?

Delta guys can buy a new car with their profit sharing. I can buy the Jelly of the Month Club.

And our margins are similar!

Just be thankful you dont work for Spirit.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 05:42 AM
I actually really like the bullet points.

$259/ 12 year airbus CA moving to $274 by 2021


Current DAL CA

A320 $264
A321 $275

TODAY. How many 321's do we fly again?

15% 401k going to 16% in FOUR YEARS?!!!! WTF?!!

Current profit sharing?!!!!

Pilot funded disability STAYS?!!

Per Diem Still Lags...

What a turd....


The MEC gave up all of our summer leverage for this POS??? FIRE THEM!!!

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 05:43 AM
Just be thankful you dont work for Spirit.


I hope you are being sarcastic.

queue
05-17-2018, 05:44 AM
Nowhere near enough to make an informed decision. For the reserve guys, how many days off? Reserve start at 0200 or 1000 hrs.?

I see that we are being paid more than Southwest - yay... still below the big 3? What are they doing to offset the increase in pay? Does that mean that they are going to build 90 hour lines then let you drop no lower than 85 hrs? Being able to trade away your line to zero is OK provided you were super senior and you got stuff that people would actually take. If you're only halfway up the seniority line no one is going to take JFK to STI.

I'm more interested in the stuff that was not written. Are we still subject to the dependability policy? Did they finally draw straight lines around it or is it anything goes at the discretion of the chief pilot? Is there any protection from the making us clean the toilets while nonreving / commuting to work? What are the rules during IROPS? For how long can a deadhead you at the tail end of the day? Will you have to sit seat support in the simulator also having your certificate at risk? Are there any snapup clauses for pay? Delta is about to redo their contract and United has a snapup clause? What about profit-sharing?

The devil is in the details. We need to see the final contract and then given time to scrub it.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-17-2018, 05:51 AM
Current DAL CA

A320 $264
A321 $275

TODAY. How many 321's do we fly again?

15% 401k going to 16% in FOUR YEARS?!!!! WTF?!!

Current profit sharing?!!!!

Pilot funded disability STAYS?!!

Per Diem Still Lags...

What a turd....


The MEC gave up all of our summer leverage for this POS??? FIRE THEM!!!

Like I've been saying, They should've never canceled the informational picket. No we are pacified into submission.

Our power is in voting NO and striking! NO COMPROMISES. ThInk of all the money and quality of life that you have lost for over a decade of inferior pay and work rules. :eek:


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 05:53 AM
Nowhere near enough to make an informed decision. For the reserve guys, how many days off? Reserve start at 0200 or 1000 hrs.?

I see that we are being paid more than Southwest - yay... still below the big 3? What are they doing to offset the increase in pay? Does that mean that they are going to build 90 hour lines then let you drop no lower than 85 hrs? Being able to trade away your line to zero is OK provided you were super senior and you got stuff that people would actually take. If you're only halfway up the seniority line no one is going to take JFK to STI.

I'm more interested in the stuff that was not written. Are we still subject to the dependability policy? Did they finally draw straight lines around it or is it anything goes at the discretion of the chief pilot? Is there any protection from the making us clean the toilets while nonreving / commuting to work? What are the rules during IROPS? For how long can a deadhead you at the tail end of the day? Will you have to sit seat support in the simulator also having your certificate at risk? Are there any snapup clauses for pay? Delta is about to redo their contract and United has a snapup clause? What about profit-sharing?

The devil is in the details. We need to see the final contract and then given time to scrub it.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


Current industry lagging Profit Sharing.

No more PTO sell back, unless you see the value of selling at straight pay.

No fully company funded LTD/STD.

Oh, and it lags the industry pay scales and per diem ON DAY ONE if you care about that sort of thing.

Beechnut
05-17-2018, 05:54 AM
My understanding.... with a pilot funded, after tax dollar disability plan, the benefits are then tax free. So pay a little now and get a lot more back should you need to use it.

This is something I've appreciated about our STD and LTD and was glad it hadn't been changed.

N311JB
05-17-2018, 05:58 AM
Any idea what the 50 million bonus comes out too?

The profit sharing is a huge red flag. Honestly I think this is the contract we should have had 3 years ago. But Iíll patiently wait for the road shows

pilotpayne
05-17-2018, 06:00 AM
Any idea what the 50 million bonus comes out too?

The profit sharing is a huge red flag. Honestly I think this is the contract we should have had 3 years ago. But Iíll patiently wait for the road shows


Totally agree.
That is the problem with bullet points. They lack context.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 06:06 AM
Am I the only one who is openly voting yes (contingent on final language)?

Softpayman
05-17-2018, 06:08 AM
I think weíre in the ballpark. Must read it all, need to learn more about the healthcare changes. Looks ok though.

5hr/day and international overrides for per diem and most intíl cities.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 06:11 AM
Am I the only one who is openly voting yes (contingent on final language)?

No, I think HB, Lowpayman, Southerner, etc. are with you.

So you ARE a discount pilot huh?

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 06:12 AM
My understanding.... with a pilot funded, after tax dollar disability plan, the benefits are then tax free. So pay a little now and get a lot more back should you need to use it.

This is something I've appreciated about our STD and LTD and was glad it hadn't been changed.

Cool, then compensate me like I am paying for my STD/LTD out of my own pocket.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 06:14 AM
No, I think HB, Lowpayman, Southerner, etc. are with you.

So you ARE a discount pilot huh?

Easy there Mr. internet tough guy.

If you want a to vent and say that you are ****ed off, then say so. Don't get ****ed at me. I flew the line, wore the lanyard and flew SOP.

If you really are this ****ed, go scream at the NC. Go talk to the MEC and ask them why they voted 12-0 for this agreement. That is who your problem is with, and thats who you should be attacking.

BeatNavy
05-17-2018, 06:15 AM
Who is going to print big NO stickers to place next to/over my 1000 days stickers? Let me know. Asking for a friend.

N311JB
05-17-2018, 06:18 AM
Iím a firm No right now. I donít even need nor did I look at the pay rates. 321overide?
But I def like the reserve rules getting better
And 4 years. Um no. Try again. This thing will be outdated next year with DAL & UAL coming up

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 06:23 AM
Easy there Mr. internet tough guy.

If you want a to vent and say that you are ****ed off, then say so. Don't get ****ed at me. I flew the line, wore the lanyard and flew SOP.

If you really are this ****ed, go scream at the NC. Go talk to the MEC and ask them why they voted 12-0 for this agreement. That is who your problem is with, and thats who you should be attacking.

You are the one who wants to vote yes to industry lagging pay.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 06:28 AM
You are the one who wants to vote yes to industry lagging pay.

Actually, I haven't voted for anything.

I voted for ALPA, if that matters? I wear my lanyard, I attended the picket and I fly SOP.

I think you need to consider your position. If the MEC, which you voted for, supports this AIP 12-0 and you are downright offended by what they came up with, you should vote to recall the MEC.

I understand you don't want to use your name or employee number, but you should really reach out to your MEC and tell them that you are ****ed. Seriously.


one quick edit: Its not the company you should be ****ed at, its the MEC.

Softpayman
05-17-2018, 06:30 AM
Some of the guys here are like the Iranian morality police. Our very own Jetblue Mullahs.

Lanyard not right? Theyíre on you. Picking up a trip that they donít deem appropriate, theyíre on you. AIP not having 100% purity ? Theyíre on you.

The vast majority of pilots go about their business, stay involved, want improvements, but not like our Mullahs. And boy are they ready to let you know when you step out of line!

embraerjetpilot
05-17-2018, 06:35 AM
Did they not even read the surveys they sent out?

N311JB
05-17-2018, 06:37 AM
I just hope the pay rates arenít what draw pilots in. I understand ours currently suck but those rates on the current AI have been the standard. The company has known they have to pay those rates. The real stuff is the negotiated material. That sets us apart. That makes this a livable destination. But saying that the NC did an exceptional job getting most our needs in the team photo.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 06:39 AM
Some of the guys here are like the Iranian morality police. Our very own Jetblue Mullahs.

Lanyard not right? Theyíre on you. Picking up a trip that they donít deem appropriate, theyíre on you. AIP not having 100% purity ? Theyíre on you.

The vast majority of pilots go about their business, stay involved, want improvements, but not like our Mullahs. And boy are they ready to let you know when you step out of line!

I agree.


Truthfully, I'm not trying to defend the AIP. Is it perfect? No. Do I wish it was better? Yes. Will I vote yes, depending on the final language? most likely.


What I don't understand is how the MEC votes 12-0 to support the AIP and folks get ****ed at me for saying I'll vote yes.

Why isn't in open season on the MEC from the no voters? I know its easy to call people names on an message board, but why not reach out to the people you voted for and you elected?

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 06:40 AM
Actually, I haven't voted for anything.

I voted for ALPA, if that matters? I wear my lanyard, I attended the picket and I fly SOP.

I think you need to consider your position. If the MEC, which you voted for, supports this AIP 12-0 and you are downright offended by what they came up with, you should vote to recall the MEC.

I understand you don't want to use your name or employee number, but you should really reach out to your MEC and tell them that you are ****ed. Seriously.


one quick edit: Its not the company you should be ****ed at, its the MEC.

Already on it.

Also, $50M in retro works out to $10k/CA and $5k/FO. What a slap in the face.

Pickleman
05-17-2018, 06:41 AM
Am I the only one who is openly voting yes (contingent on final language)?


You're absolutely not.

yayairplanes
05-17-2018, 06:43 AM
How come Delta wont hire you guys?



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