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AV810
05-17-2018, 02:41 AM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?


Mercyful Fate
05-17-2018, 02:47 AM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?




How about you tell us? Why does anyone choose SkyWest?

amcnd
05-17-2018, 04:25 AM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?


Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!


gojo
05-17-2018, 05:36 AM
Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!

Could be that bonus checks don’t count as guaranteed income. And people at McDonald’s didn’t make $12.00 an hour either. Wages up up everywhere. Not to mention the cost of flight training and the cost of college tuition. Maybe that’s why people want a better rate of return these days. Why should someone have to enter the profession that they trained for and not be able to pay back student loans for several years?

deadseal
05-17-2018, 05:53 AM
Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!

Don’t want to create a ****ing match with you, however I must point out that just because you had **** wages doesn’t mean people should accept **** wages now. This line of thinking is selfish. 2 wrongs don’t make a right and all that Jazz. Skywest pilots need a proper union. If anything, just to separate church and state during negotiations

Check Complete
05-17-2018, 06:09 AM
Skywest pilots need a proper union. If anything, just to separate church and state during negotiations


Best words I've read ever!

Nothing could be more true!

amcnd
05-17-2018, 06:18 AM
I don’t disagree with the Union statement. But when Endeavor was “bonus’s” people said that was fine. But not with OO... double standards being thrown right now..

rickair7777
05-17-2018, 06:33 AM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?


Probably because of geography. Personally I would need about an ADDITIONAL $200K/year to live in or commute to some eastern toilet.


But the real question is why do you care?

Excargodog
05-17-2018, 06:34 AM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?


It's actually a little worse than you paint it - especially for newbies - because of a few other issues:


Skywest has a 6-7 week training period for new hired pilots

Double occupancy while in training

Double occupancy? Like a dorm room? Now is that the end of the world? Clearly not. But is it sort of chintzy. Yup.

Yeah, I know,I know,it gives you someone to study with - but somehow the other regionals newbie's pass their type-rating despite having their own room.

Pay: $37.23/hr with 65hr guarantee in Training, and 76hr guarantee after training for the first year.

So not only are you getting $3 to $8 less an hour during training than other folks, you are getting 10 hours less a month than trainees from other regionals. Again,not the end of the world, but still- chintzy.

And after that:


On CRJ fleet, all soft time (vacation, sick, deadhead, min day credit, training, etc) are paid at CBR (CRJ Base Rate, aka. CRJ 200).

It doesn't matter what you are actually flying on the CRJ fleet, for all your soft time you are getting paid at the lowest rate possible for the fleet.

and:

2% pay increase for all pilots as of 7/1/17. 1% increases each Jan 1 of 2019 thru 2022.

So basically, you get these substandard pay rates now,and they get even worse for the next 4 years because the pay increases already locked into the agreement are LESS THAN THE INFLATION RATE.

Now realistically, that's not going to happen. I know that, you know that, very possibly even Skywest management knows that. They simply aren't going to successfully compete for new hires without improving their bonus and/or compensation package, so it's going to have to go up or they are going to be folding their tent. Already they are having recruiting and attrition problems, but this is all symptomatic of a mindset,and that mindset is that they are going to do the minimum possible in the way of pilot QOL and Payscale to allow them to compete.

According to old-timers it wasn't always that way, they speak fondly of back when Skywest was really the regional to be at, but it is certainly NOT that way now. Unless the mindset of the Skywest management changes, it doesn't seem to be the place to be now. Not unless you are already there and have too much personal investment in seniority to go elsewhere or are a newbie who has some exceedingly compelling rationale for going there that - frankly - most people just won't have.

But we are all big boys (and girls) at this level. Everybody ought to analyze their own options and do what's best for them. And anyone who doesn't - anyone who just goes in starry eyed without doing their own research - well, the blame is on you,nobody else. It's not like working conditions or pay scales are secrets or anything. Pay your penny and take your pick, but don't ***** about it later if you didn't do your homework first.

amcnd
05-17-2018, 06:38 AM
Because as a “old timer” thats what we had to do!! It was industry norm.. and no SJS. Just a craped out turbo prop... and then 24k first year at a major. 50/50 chance of having to sit sideways for 2 years.. im glad its pushing 50k to start now. My kids will have it easy..

bamike
05-17-2018, 06:38 AM
Don’t want to create a ****ing match with you, however I must point out that just because you had **** wages doesn’t mean people should accept **** wages now. This line of thinking is selfish. 2 wrongs don’t make a right and all that Jazz. Skywest pilots need a proper union. If anything, just to separate church and state during negotiations

This guy is spot on. The reason many people (myself included) went into other jobs is because we took one look at the pilot profession and said no way in hell are we going to accept the level of risk and difficulty of being a pilot for $15 an hour. The fact that you did accept those wages has no bearing on us. Please don't sell the rest of us short because back in the day you decided to fly a jet for less money than the butcher working at Costco.

Bravix
05-17-2018, 06:42 AM
Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!

Majority of the companies that offer signing/retention bonuses also have performance and often profit sharing bonuses as well. Not to mention other freebies (the one time tax cut giveaway at American, luggage and full uniform from Republic. etc.)

Performance and profit sharing varies too much and isn't something you can rely on at the end of the day. I can rely on a signing bonus, however. Or a contractual retention bonus (even if it expires at some point, I know I have the bonus during that period).

The only semi-reliable bonus SkyWest has is the profit sharing bonus, since it does have a base value for the pot. So you have a somewhat realistic base end, with the actual amount varying pretty substantially somewhere above that.

Mind you, I'm not saying we need bonuses. Just that what we have for a bonus structure isn't all that.

KSCessnaDriver
05-17-2018, 06:42 AM
I don’t disagree with the Union statement. But when Endeavor was “bonus’s” people said that was fine. But not with OO... double standards being thrown right now..

Because when EDV had the bonus, it was still contractual compensation.

Bravix
05-17-2018, 06:46 AM
This guy is spot on. The reason many people (myself included) went into other jobs is because we took one look at the pilot profession and said no way in hell are we going to accept the level of risk and difficulty of being a pilot for $15 an hour. The fact that you did accept those wages has no bearing on us. Please don't sell the rest of us short because back in the day you decided to fly a jet for less money than the butcher working at Costco.

Well yeah, but the butcher is allowed to carry and use a sharp, scary knife. We can't even bring a leatherman onto the plane. So the butcher clearly deserves the higher pay.

Otterbox
05-17-2018, 06:49 AM
I don’t disagree with the Union statement. But when Endeavor was “bonus’s” people said that was fine. But not with OO... double standards being thrown right now..

If it’s was truely fine they wouldn’t have pushed to turn those bonuses into pay rates...

Sick of folks wanting $60k starting pay? Sounds like someone’s afraid that more money for new hires is going to come from the lifers of the pilot group to keep things cost neutral for the company. That’s probably a valid concern... once Skywest breakups XJT and sheds that expensive labor group, the Skywest lifers are going to be in the bean counters crosshairs for cost reductions...

Hopefully you end your Skywest tenure while the goose is still golden for you...

Check Complete
05-17-2018, 06:52 AM
Well yeah, but the butcher is allowed to carry and use a sharp, scary knife. We can't even bring a leatherman onto the plane. So the butcher clearly deserves the higher pay.

Ya but, does the Costco Butcher get the opportunity to have his junk felt up by a TSA goon when there's no KCM?

BTW thanks ALPA for KCM, me and 4600 non contributing SkyWest pilots appreciate it.

Hopefully soon a change in venue will let me support the profession correctly.

Check Complete
05-17-2018, 06:55 AM
Hopefully you end your Skywest tenure while the goose is still golden for you...

Yes, I see the writing on the wall, apps and resumes are out in force.

Never underestimate SkyWest corporate greed.

Westernflight
05-17-2018, 07:00 AM
Because as a “old timer” thats what we had to do!! It was industry norm.. and no SJS. Just a craped out turbo prop... and then 24k first year at a major. 50/50 chance of having to sit sideways for 2 years.. im glad its pushing 50k to start now. My kids will have it easy..
Curious what timeframe you’re referring to here. Accounting for inflation and rapid rise of housing costs I’m not so sure your kids will have it as easy as you think.

$25,000 in 1980 adjusted for inflation had the equivalent buying power as $80,000 today. It’s not that new hires have it so easy, it’s more the ENTIRE industry hasn’t kept up. Well any industry for that matter.

AV810
05-17-2018, 07:03 AM
[and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start]

Why? F.O. candidates have the equivalent of a second college degree invested in their flight training. Regional pilots spend about 4600 hours a year away from home, either in a cockpit or a hotel. Are you able to use that time to pursue a hobby or spend quality time with your kids? It is more than twice the number of hours a typical worker spends at his 40 hour per week job, and neither number includes commuting time. How many days per month does a commuting pilot spend at airports and hotels? Your pilot job requires continuous training, and you risk losing your career over an incident, busted check rides, or loss of your medical. In today's economy, $60,000 per year can provide a single person with a decent lifestyle and modest retirement savings. It can provide a minimal lifestyle for a small family, but with no savings. For two degrees, double the working hours, and the risk that goes with an airline pilot job, I'd say that a six-figure salary should be the baseline. You can subtract from there the future benefit and costs of a new-hire F.O.'s flight training and IOE and arrive at a reasonable first-year pay, but I maintain that the number is higher than $60,000. Once a pilot is captain qualified, he should get six-figures even if he's still stuck in the right seat.

Excargodog
05-17-2018, 08:04 AM
Ya but, does the Costco Butcher get the opportunity to have his junk felt up by a TSA goon when there's no KCM?




They wouldn't dare. He's got a big scary knife...:eek:

DocRumack
05-17-2018, 08:26 AM
Yup a lot of things suck. No signing bonus for newbies, pay, double occupancy, no hotels commute policy, MS Surface, and all that bs koolaid about being a family... not to speak about the abusive training schedule. They expect u to learn systems during 4 days of 40+ CBT and barely no class lectures on those...

Management is under no pressure to improve things. The hiring clogging at Envoy and Endeavor is probably the main reason why they are still filling the classroom so why bother...

BUT, they still hold a good reputation. So I say use them as a stepping stone. Get your ratings, IOE and bounce asap...

WesternSkies
05-17-2018, 08:30 AM
SGU agrees with this thread, they’d love to focus on new hires.
The rest of us care about pay at all levels of longevity.

New hires could have made more months ago if company moved unilaterally (which they won’t)

DelTacoBowl
05-17-2018, 08:52 AM
When I was your age I used to carry 50 pound blocks of ice up ten flights of stairs!

Because as a “old timer” thats what we had to do!! It was industry norm.. and no SJS. Just a craped out turbo prop... and then 24k first year at a major. 50/50 chance of having to sit sideways for 2 years.. im glad its pushing 50k to start now. My kids will have it easy..

rickair7777
05-17-2018, 09:36 AM
New hires could have made more months ago if company moved unilaterally (which they won’t)


They don't want a union that fast.

GearUpHeadDown
05-17-2018, 09:47 AM
SAPA screwed us with the NH vote. From what I’ve heard, it will be heavy on first 3 year FO and peanuts to the rest of us.

rickair7777
05-17-2018, 09:56 AM
SAPA screwed us with the NH vote. From what I’ve heard, it will be heavy on first 3 year FO and peanuts to the rest of us.


Of course. They need NH's, everybody else is on the hook until they get enough PIC to get a legacy call, or because they have too much debt, ex-wives, child custody, child-support, etc.

Dorp
05-17-2018, 04:10 PM
I don’t disagree with the Union statement. But when Endeavor was “bonus’s” people said that was fine. But not with OO... double standards being thrown right now..

No no, you have it backwards. When we (9E) still had the bonuses it was YOUR company that prided itself in coining the phrase(s) “it’s just a bonus/it doesn’t count/it can’t be taken at any time.” So it’s not a double standard when OO bonuses aren’t considered now, you’re just being held to your own words.

Maybe I’m misreading your post, correct me if I’m wrong.

Fixnem2Flyinem
05-17-2018, 04:41 PM
I love it when captains that have been in the game for 20 or more years say new hires are ungrateful for the 35-40k salaries they now have. They say “that was my rate on the metro!”

It leads me to this conversation...

So when were you hired? Oh in 1996, what was rent back then? Oh you had a house, what was the price tag of that in 1996? What is it now do you think? What was the price of gas per gallon in 1996? Well it’s a bit more than that now isn’t it. How much did you pay for your ratings back then? Oh do you know how much it is now? At first they almost seem offended, but once they see it from that angle, they seem to understand this more.

I say this as a pilot who flew pt 135 for the agregious wage of 20 an hour in 2015. After 11 months of that wage (around 19,000) I had maxed out credit cards and asked my parents numerous times to float me some cash. I am certainly not proud of that and I never wish that on any pilot that is putting their tickets on the line every time they step into a plane. The places that can’t catch up with the times are closing, it is only beginning and even a place as big as SkyWest will have major issues if they don’t change their rates.

Simply bragging that you made less years ago just shows you were part of the problem, you contributed to the race to the bottom. People are smarter than that now, they look at the financial situation they will put themselves in and make a good decision on not doing so.

gojo
05-17-2018, 04:49 PM
I don’t disagree with the Union statement. But when Endeavor was “bonus’s” people said that was fine. But not with OO... double standards being thrown right now..

That was contractual. It was $23,000, and it was guaranteed. It wasn’t based on fuel savings initiatives, or profit sharing. Those bonuses change

Fixnem2Flyinem
05-17-2018, 05:18 PM
Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!

Just out of curiosity, what year(s) did you get paid those wages? Was it a struggle back then when CoL was way lower than it is now? What year did Delta start people at 24k? Must have been a while ago if they were starting as FE’s... If it was 20 years ago you’re failing to think about inflation. Hopefully, a pilot that has been in the game as long as you have can take a step back and look at it from that angle instead of getting mad at new pilots that want a better financial situation for themselves.

trip
05-17-2018, 05:32 PM
Just out of curiosity, what year(s) did you get paid those wages? Was it a struggle back then when CoL was way lower than it is now? What year did Delta start people at 24k? Must have been a while ago if they were starting as FE’s... If it was 20 years ago you’re failing to think about inflation. Hopefully, a pilot that has been in the game as long as you have can take a step back and look at it from that angle instead of getting mad at new pilots that want a better financial situation for themselves.

I would take a guess in the late nineties.

Westernflight
05-18-2018, 04:03 AM
Curious what timeframe you’re referring to here. Accounting for inflation and rapid rise of housing costs I’m not so sure your kids will have it as easy as you think.

$25,000 in 1980 adjusted for inflation had the equivalent buying power as $80,000 today. It’s not that new hires have it so easy, it’s more the ENTIRE industry hasn’t kept up. Well any industry for that matter.

People don’t like to answer questions that don’t fit their narrative.

amcnd
05-18-2018, 04:30 AM
People don’t like to answer questions that don’t fit their narrative.

Or people are busy with stuff other then this forum board.... To answer the question. In the 1990’s a pilot getting hired at the regionals career expectation was turboprop Captain. (Making 50k max) thats it. No SJS, just new turboprops .. You were excited when you got to fly the 30 seat one with a autopilot, and a FA.. everyone was trying to get on a major.

Westernflight
05-18-2018, 05:48 AM
Or people are busy with stuff other then this forum board.... To answer the question. In the 1990’s a pilot getting hired at the regionals career expectation was turboprop Captain. (Making 50k max) thats it. No SJS, just new turboprops .. You were excited when you got to fly the 30 seat one with a autopilot, and a FA.. everyone was trying to get on a major.

Fair... and it’s just a question of putting things in perspective. $25,000 in 1990 would have had the same buying power as $48,500 in today’s money. So yes things weren’t all that rosy back then either.

amcnd
05-18-2018, 06:07 AM
Fair... and it’s just a question of putting things in perspective. $25,000 in 1990 would have had the same buying power as $48,500 in today’s money. So yes things weren’t all that rosy back then either.

You right. Its crap then. Crap now. Regionals should have never had RJ’s. We would have been left with a all Major network right now.. But it’s to late for that now.

Fixnem2Flyinem
05-18-2018, 06:12 AM
You right. Its crap then. Crap now. Regionals should have never had RJ’s. We would have been left with a all Major network right now.. But it’s to late for that now.

Maybe it is starting to head in that direction. I believe all three majors have pay scales for regional aircraft.

Excargodog
05-18-2018, 06:39 AM
Maybe it is starting to head in that direction. I believe all three majors have pay scales for regional aircraft.

If consolidation to wholly owned occurs, it would be difficult for it o be any other way. In fact I would imagine negotiations would quickly tend toward getting your seniority number for the major while still at the regional, just as some regionals are now starting to give early seniority for their cadet programs. Then you just move up with the flow.

That would make it more difficult for hiring people from the military, but those numbers - except for rotor heads - are becoming fewer as the USAF and Navy increase the ADSC for training and increase their bonus programs to retain fixed wing aviators.

rickair7777
05-18-2018, 08:41 AM
That would make it more difficult for hiring people from the military, but those numbers - except for rotor heads - are becoming fewer as the USAF and Navy increase the ADSC for training and increase their bonus programs to retain fixed wing aviators.


ADSC is about as high as it can get now. Nobody in their right mind would commit to more than ten years at age 22.


DoD is facing some big headwinds on pilot retention...


QOL: Always worse than airlines, and not trending any better.


Quality of Job: Significant cultural issues, especially in the AF. This could be

fixed possible but political agendas don't help.


Compensation: How much can DoD actually pay pilots? Not Big-Six airline pay.


Seniority: Bonuses today are more than wiped out by potential future earnings IF you catch the seniority wave. Mil pilots are not stupid.


You've had most of the fun you're going to have by year ten, after that it tapers off to desk jobs and most folks won't fly after 15-20 years. Unless your dream is to be a general or flag officer it makes no sense to stay longer than ten.


The issue of granting mainline seniority at the regionals is a problem. The airlines don't want to pay CFI's $150K to fly an RJ, but they need to pay mil pilots more than $50K. The current flow system works... regional pilots get low pay and a guaranteed future seniority number, but they can still hire mil pilots directly to mainline.


The majors could bring it all in-house, but then it would get locked in with scope and higher pay which they would be stuck with forever. But they may not have a choice if things get bad enough.

TerrainTerrain
05-19-2018, 02:23 PM
SAPA screwed us with the NH vote. From what I’ve heard, it will be heavy on first 3 year FO and peanuts to the rest of us.

Haha, vote “no” then.
Duh

ghann001
05-20-2018, 02:56 PM
Bonus programs or pay rates at the other regionals put new hire first officer pay at about $50,000 to $60,000 for each of the first two years. Skywest publishes $37/hr with a 76 hour guarantee and no bonuses (except rotorwing transition), about $34,000/yr. Additionally, Skywest employees have no Union protections. Serious question: why does anyone choose Skywest?



Because they are stupid. That’s why


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

bradthepilot
05-20-2018, 04:13 PM
Because they are stupid. That’s why


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's a bold statement, Cotton. It presumes that pay is the only thing people might be looking for, which isn't universally true.

I have a class date in June. Not having to commute and reasonably quick upgrades were top considerations, not pay (I wouldn't leave my role in a fast growing tech company if pay were prime consideration). Sorry if you made a choice that wasn't optimal, but that doesn't mean that it's sub-optimal for everyone else.

gojo
05-20-2018, 05:13 PM
That's a bold statement, Cotton. It presumes that pay is the only thing people might be looking for, which isn't universally true.

I have a class date in June. Not having to commute and reasonably quick upgrades were top considerations, not pay (I wouldn't leave my role in a fast growing tech company if pay were prime consideration). Sorry if you made a choice that wasn't optimal, but that doesn't mean that it's sub-optimal for everyone else.

That’s bs. You’re still worth the same money as a Gojet or Mesa new hire regardless of where you’re based. And upgrades are quick at most regionals these days. Why sell yourself short? You’re not helping the forward momentum we’ve finally been able to realize in this industry by accepting subpar compensation. And you’re definitely not helping the Skywest group for getting what they deserve. I guarantee you that if people would stop going to Skywest they’d pony up in a hurry. And they damn sure can afford it.

BeechPilot33
05-20-2018, 05:31 PM
That’s bs. You’re still worth the same money as a Gojet or Mesa new hire regardless of where you’re based. And upgrades are quick at most regionals these days. Why sell yourself short? You’re not helping the forward momentum we’ve finally been able to realize in this industry by accepting subpar compensation. And you’re definitely not helping the Skywest group for getting what they deserve. I guarantee you that if people would stop going to Skywest they’d pony up in a hurry. And they damn sure can afford it.

This guy gets it. Only by not filling classes will the company pay more. Why raise pay if people are still showing up.

bradthepilot
05-20-2018, 05:32 PM
That’s bs. You’re still worth the same money as a Gojet or Mesa new hire regardless of where you’re based. And upgrades are quick at most regionals these days. Why sell yourself short? You’re not helping the forward momentum we’ve finally been able to realize in this industry by accepting subpar compensation. And you’re definitely not helping the Skywest group for getting what they deserve. I guarantee you that if people would stop going to Skywest they’d pony up in a hurry. And they damn sure can afford it.

What part of my statement, exactly, is BS? I didn't say anything about being/not being worth a certain amount, only that pay isn't the universally most valued thing and that for some (like me) there were other considerations.

Is offline
05-20-2018, 06:26 PM
What part of my statement, exactly, is BS? I didn't say anything about being/not being worth a certain amount, only that pay isn't the universally most valued thing and that for some (like me) there were other considerations.

You should come back and tell us how you feel after 6 months of Proffering/reserve. What you fail to see is by not raising the pay to be competitive they could drive this company into the ground in 6 months. That alone should be very concerning for a new hire..

bradthepilot
05-20-2018, 06:51 PM
You should come back and tell us how you feel after 6 months of Proffering/reserve. What you fail to see is by not raising the pay to be competitive they could drive this company into the ground in 6 months. That alone should be very concerning for a new hire..

You could very well be right.

SirLurksalot
05-20-2018, 10:15 PM
You could very well be right.

Go to awac, fly the same plane (crj) out of the same base and bring a rake to collect the bonuses they pay.

bradthepilot
05-21-2018, 04:40 AM
Go to awac, fly the same plane (crj) out of the same base and bring a rake to collect the bonuses they pay.

AWAC opened an MSP base? I hadn't seen/heard/read that anywhere.

GearUpHeadDown
05-21-2018, 06:30 AM
Haha, vote “no” then.
Duh

I did and I will. The problem is, they structure the pay package so it gets a 51% Yes vote and costs them the least $$. That’s why they threatened SAPA before the NH vote. They needed those guys to pass a sub-par package.

SirLurksalot
05-21-2018, 06:32 AM
AWAC opened an MSP base? I hadn't seen/heard/read that anywhere.
Wrong thread my b

hawk21
05-21-2018, 09:21 AM
AWAC opened an MSP base? I hadn't seen/heard/read that anywhere.

No and they never will.

rickair7777
05-21-2018, 09:39 AM
This guy gets it. Only by not filling classes will the company pay more. Why raise pay if people are still showing up.



Now you're cooking with gas... blame the new-hires for the pay and conditions that you failed to fix when they were in junior high school. Better yet, wait for them in the parking lot and beat them up.

All regional pay is chump change, most especially regional FO pay. Not worth a transcon commute for an extra $15K take-home pay. If you can drive to work, upgrade quick, and then GTFO then regional pay is irrelevant.

msprj2
05-21-2018, 09:57 AM
Now you're cooking with gas... blame the new-hires for the pay and conditions that you failed to fix when they were in junior high school. Better yet, wait for them in the parking lot and beat them up.

All regional pay is chump change, most especially regional FO pay. Not worth a transcon commute for an extra $15K take-home pay. If you can drive to work, upgrade quick, and then GTFO then regional pay is irrelevant.

So says the guy who voted in 1% raises.

gojo
05-21-2018, 10:13 AM
Now you're cooking with gas... blame the new-hires for the pay and conditions that you failed to fix when they were in junior high school. Better yet, wait for them in the parking lot and beat them up.

All regional pay is chump change, most especially regional FO pay. Not worth a transcon commute for an extra $15K take-home pay. If you can drive to work, upgrade quick, and then GTFO then regional pay is irrelevant.

Ya because you shouldn’t have to worry about paying back student loans or getting ahead a little financially. Just wait until you land that coveted job for that. News flash, if other regionals are pay competitive, Skywest should be too

rickair7777
05-21-2018, 11:00 AM
Ya because you shouldn’t have to worry about paying back student loans or getting ahead a little financially. Just wait until you land that coveted job for that. News flash, if other regionals are pay competitive, Skywest should be too


No they shouldn't. They should pay more if they can't fill classes. They are not going to pay more because they "should".

Check Complete
05-21-2018, 11:01 AM
So says the guy who voted in 1% raises.


But, but, but, we have to stay competitive.

Endeavor and Republic rates are unsustainable, they are going to go under.



In other news, staffing is right where it needs to be.

hawk21
05-21-2018, 11:20 AM
No they shouldn't. They should pay more if they can't fill classes. They are not going to pay more because they "should".

They need to be proactive about this though. Not reactive. It will come and bite them in the ass.

gojo
05-21-2018, 11:21 AM
No they shouldn't. They should pay more if they can't fill classes. They are not going to pay more because they "should".

Thanks for adding weight to the point I was trying to make earlier. And the “should” I was referring to is you and every other Skywest pilot too. Unless you just don’t like money? What’re we talking about for monatry difference in the course of a 3 year, if you’re lucky, stint at Skywest as compared with, oh almost every other regional? $40,000 $50,000 $60,000?

NotMe
05-21-2018, 11:42 AM
Thanks for adding weight to the point I was trying to make earlier. And the “should” I was referring to is you and every other Skywest pilot too. Unless you just don’t like money? What’re we talking about for monatry difference in the course of a 3 year, if you’re lucky, stint at Skywest as compared with, oh almost every other regional? $40,000 $50,000 $60,000?



$100,000. I left OO after 5 months (and as a ground instructor) and went to EDV because I calculated that I was leaving $100,000 on the table over a three year period.

That’s working your butt off at both places. If you are happy with min guarantee, it is $100,000 over five years.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

rickair7777
05-21-2018, 11:55 AM
Thanks for adding weight to the point I was trying to make earlier. And the “should” I was referring to is you and every other Skywest pilot too. Unless you just don’t like money? What’re we talking about for monatry difference in the course of a 3 year, if you’re lucky, stint at Skywest as compared with, oh almost every other regional? $40,000 $50,000 $60,000?


When I was at SKW the pay and QOL were right up there or better than any other regional... combined with the geography it was a no-brainer. When that became no longer the case I took my own advice and left. First year legacy pay was slightly better than ten-year SKW pay.


New-hires complaining about new-hire pay is pointless. You can't change it, and the senior pilots don't care. Only the company can change it, IF they feel the need, and IF they can get the senior pilots to agree (or do an end-run around them).

bradthepilot
05-21-2018, 12:02 PM
Thanks for adding weight to the point I was trying to make earlier. And the “should” I was referring to is you and every other Skywest pilot too. Unless you just don’t like money? What’re we talking about for monatry difference in the course of a 3 year, if you’re lucky, stint at Skywest as compared with, oh almost every other regional? $40,000 $50,000 $60,000?

For me, SKYW compared to AWAC was approximately $9000 over a three year period. The bonus isn't really $31k, for example - it's more like $20k after taxes. And the additional costs associated with commuting work about to about $11k over three years. Factor in the upgrade time delta (and associated effect on income) and the difference may be even smaller.

$3k/year to avoid a commute to ORD or MKE is totally worth it for me. The ability to pick up trips easily (due to living in base) may erode this difference even further.

msprj2
05-21-2018, 12:08 PM
For me, SKYW compared to AWAC was approximately $9000 over a three year period. The bonus isn't really $31k, for example - it's more like $20k after taxes. And the additional costs associated with commuting work about to about $11k over three years. Factor in the upgrade time delta (and associated effect on income) and the difference may be even smaller.

$3k/year to avoid a commute to ORD or MKE is totally worth it for me. The ability to pick up trips easily (due to living in base) may erode this difference even further.

So you're comparing AWAC's net pay vs SKYW gross pay? Have another
cup there me boy!

bradthepilot
05-21-2018, 12:23 PM
So you're comparing AWAC's net pay vs SKYW gross pay? Have another
cup there me boy!

Wow - jump to conclusions much?

My comparison took into account actual income after taxes along with our monthly expenditures both actual and planned. It's not valid for anyone else, but the techniques might be. It's a bit more detailed and nuanced than simply comparing two numbers, as it includes effects of taxes, investment income, rental income, and so on.

fortyeight
05-21-2018, 12:38 PM
Ya because you shouldn’t have to worry about paying back student loans or getting ahead a little financially. Just wait until you land that coveted job for that. News flash, if other regionals are pay competitive, Skywest should be too

OO will be pay competitive off the backs of every other unionized pilot group, eventually. Or if this rumored YX super regional materializes. That'll force management's hand real quick.

TJBrass
05-21-2018, 01:09 PM
Only if the line in front of the recruiting booth chanting "We don't care about the Pay"! dries up.

TheWeatherman
05-21-2018, 02:46 PM
For me, SKYW compared to AWAC was approximately $9000 over a three year period. The bonus isn't really $31k, for example - it's more like $20k after taxes.




Your tax rate is 35%? Wow, you must have some significant other income.



Not sure why people try to use taxes to discount bonuses when they are taxed the exactly the same as regular income. It's like saying "I don't care if I will make $14 extra an hour at Endeaver because that is only like $10 an hour after taxes."

rickair7777
05-21-2018, 02:58 PM
Not sure why people try to use taxes to discount bonuses when they are taxed the exactly the same as regular income. It's like saying "I don't care if I will make $14 extra an hour at Endeaver because that is only like $10 an hour after taxes."


Bonuses tend to get withheld at a very high rate. But of course it will all come out in the wash next April.

bradthepilot
05-22-2018, 07:58 AM
Your tax rate is 35%? Wow, you must have some significant other income.

Very simplistically, federal rate at 24%, MN state at 7.05%, and FICA at 7.5%. Not unreasonable when you have a rental property, some investments, and your spouse works.

And as rickair points out, it all balances out when taxes are filed.

GPLD
05-22-2018, 10:03 AM
The bonus isn't really $31k, for example - it's more like $20k after taxes. And the additional costs associated with commuting work about to about $11k over three years. .

This is one of the most asinine, nonsensical, illogical arguments I've ever heard as to why not to take money. There is no common sense with this one. I literally joined APC to respond to this preposterous "reasoning".

I'm out.

bradthepilot
05-22-2018, 10:11 AM
This is one of the most asinine, nonsensical, illogical arguments I've ever heard as to why not to take money. There is no common sense with this one. I literally joined APC to respond to this preposterous "reasoning".

I'm out.

I *never* said it's a reason to not take a bonus (prove me wrong). Rather, the point was that the bonus isn't big enough to offset the additional hassle and expense of commuting in my own situation. Yours and others may be different.

iahflyr
05-22-2018, 12:00 PM
From what I’ve heard, it will be heavy on first 3 year FO and peanuts to the rest of us.

This is a good thing!

If given a fixed pot of money to spend on raises, I would much rather they spend it on underpaid FO’s, versus decently paid Captains.

Everyone will go through year 1-3 FO. Not everyone will go through years 5-20 captain. Spend the money where it will benefit more people.

word302
05-22-2018, 01:10 PM
This is a good thing!

If given a fixed pot of money to spend on raises, I would much rather they spend it on underpaid FO’s, versus decently paid Captains.

Everyone will go through year 1-3 FO. Not everyone will go through years 5-20 captain. Spend the money where it will benefit more people.

Um.......No

rickair7777
05-22-2018, 02:34 PM
Everyone will go through year 1-3 FO. Not everyone will go through years 5-20 captain. Spend the money where it will benefit more people.


It's not communism. Money at year 1-3 doesn't do squat for the large majority of SKW pilots. And nobody owes anything to those not yet hired.

The company wants fee rein to pay as much as they need to attract noobs, without paying a dime to anyone who's already on the hook (anyone with more than a year or two longevity). In fact the only hope that the latter group has of getting anything at all is to hold hostage the junior FO pay rates, which is what the company cares about.

word302
05-22-2018, 05:31 PM
It's not communism. Money at year 1-3 doesn't do squat for the large majority of SKW pilots. And nobody owes anything to those not yet hired.

The company wants fee rein to pay as much as they need to attract noobs, without paying a dime to anyone who's already on the hook (anyone with more than a year or two longevity). In fact the only hope that the latter group has of getting anything at all is to hold hostage the junior FO pay rates, which is what the company cares about.

^^^^This right here.^^^^Quit using our negotiating capital to pay pilots who don't yet work here.

Bravix
05-22-2018, 06:08 PM
It's not communism. Money at year 1-3 doesn't do squat for the large majority of SKW pilots. And nobody owes anything to those not yet hired.

The company wants fee rein to pay as much as they need to attract noobs, without paying a dime to anyone who's already on the hook (anyone with more than a year or two longevity). In fact the only hope that the latter group has of getting anything at all is to hold hostage the junior FO pay rates, which is what the company cares about.

Errrr, well...there are a LOT of 1-3 year pilots at SkyWest, and the ratio of them to everyone else is only going to be increasing as time goes on. I don't disagree with everything else, solid plan.

Flogger
05-22-2018, 06:28 PM
It's not communism. Money at year 1-3 doesn't do squat for the large majority of SKW pilots. And nobody owes anything to those not yet hired.

The company wants fee rein to pay as much as they need to attract noobs, without paying a dime to anyone who's already on the hook (anyone with more than a year or two longevity). In fact the only hope that the latter group has of getting anything at all is to hold hostage the junior FO pay rates, which is what the company cares about.

smirk...smirk.. chuckle chuckle!!! How exactly does a non-union pilot hold ANYTHING hostage? tee hee tee hee!!

rickair7777
05-22-2018, 07:16 PM
smirk...smirk.. chuckle chuckle!!! How exactly does a non-union pilot hold ANYTHING hostage? tee hee tee hee!!


It would work better with a union, but if the pilots vote no and SGU does it anyway then they would probably get a union asap. So the potential threat of a union provides some leverage.

amcnd
05-22-2018, 07:33 PM
It would work better with a union, but if the pilots vote no and SGU does it anyway then they would probably get a union asap. So the potential threat of a union provides some leverage.

Except they know if a union gets voted in. that’s what 3-5 years of locked costs?? Whats that average first contact timeframe??

amcnd
05-22-2018, 08:30 PM
[DELETED POST REMOVED]

Wow.. you do realize beside the founder and a few VP’s (not the Flt ops) are not of that faith. That may have held true in the 1980’s-1990’s. But SkyWest has out grown that. Come up with something new... we’re tired of the same slander...

SactisbonesBJ
05-22-2018, 10:37 PM
[DELETED POST REMOVED]

Wow.. you do realize beside the founder and a few VP’s (not the Flt ops) are not of that faith. That may have held true in the 1980’s-1990’s. But SkyWest has out grown that. Come up with something new... we’re tired of the same slander...

Sounds like he hit close to home! Why havent you moved on? Or just unhireable at a real company?

amcnd
05-23-2018, 07:23 AM
Sounds like he hit close to home! Why havent you moved on? Or just unhireable at a real company?

You asking me or him?? I am... ;-). Actually worked out. Was a good ride. Didn’t have to commute, home to watch my kids grow up, Time for something new and different ...

Excargodog
05-23-2018, 08:15 AM
You asking me or him?? I am... ;-). Actually worked out. Was a good ride. Didn’t have to commute, home to watch my kids grow up, Time for something new and different ...


Congratulations. Good for you. Hope it all works out for you well at the new place too.

AV810
05-23-2018, 09:47 AM
[New-hires complaining about new-hire pay is pointless. You can't change it, ]

umm... actually you can, sign on with an airline with 33% higher pay. Which is most of them.

Check Complete
05-23-2018, 11:35 AM
[DELETED POST]

To a degree I feel similar, but I think the best way to get back at Inc. is to get everyone out and tell every one not to apply. Inc. is ruthless especially with chip at the realms, the pain is starting, staffing is becoming an issue.

I am working diligently to get out, so are many of my peers as well, as in others with my amount of time at SkyWest,+ 20 years. As soon as the newbies find out they can get a lot of money else where and they're not going to get a good base for a long time, it too will severely hurt this place.

Heck, if half of them knew how bad reserve is they would never apply at all!

Don't hate the player, hate the game!

Excargodog
05-23-2018, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Baddog View Post
[DELETED POST]


Just an observation. If you delete a post and then don't delete the two quotes of the post in the subsequent postings of people who have already replied to it, the post ain't really very deleted.

:rolleyes:

Simpsons
05-23-2018, 12:07 PM
Luckily for us Skywesters it appears baddog doesn’t have too much pull in the industry. Tons of our pilots are moving on despite his efforts to make sure none of us are able to

rickair7777
05-23-2018, 12:09 PM
Just an observation. If you delete a post and then don't delete the two quotes of the post in the subsequent postings of people who have already replied to it, the post ain't really very deleted.

:rolleyes:

It's a manual process, not instantaneous. I deleted one, didn't see a second quote?

sheriff5113
05-23-2018, 08:06 PM
Funny you say this. But when you compare a 10 year SkyWest captains pay with other regionals, you won’t include SkyWest’s 6 bonus checks a year.....

I guess im one of the “older “ guys on APC and get tired of everyone demand 60k a year to start. SkyWest will be close in pay soon. (big meeting next week) but some of us started at $14.50 a hr. And there was a time when Delta was 24k a year to start and you would have to start as a flight engineer!! Like to see you guys survive that!!!

You're that guy! Right now in this moment, you're the "Back in my day" guy. I can't stand those guys! Well guess what, Guy. It was your cheap generation that ruined it for my generation! Congrats, take a bow "that guy."

I know it's been a while since you've been to flight school, where pilot certs were issued on tissue paper and lamented to last, but flight training costs a **** ton of money. So yes, 60k a year to start isn't asking for much considering what's expected of us...Guy.

WesternSkies
05-24-2018, 03:55 AM
You're that guy! Right now in this moment, you're the "Back in my day" guy. I can't stand those guys! Well guess what, Guy. It was your cheap generation that ruined it for my generation! Congrats, take a bow "that guy."

I know it's been a while since you've been to flight school, where pilot certs were issued on tissue paper and lamented to last, but flight training costs a **** ton of money. So yes, 60k a year to start isn't asking for much considering what's expected of us...Guy.

I see how you want things to work and how things actually work.

Truthanator
05-24-2018, 08:04 AM
You're that guy! Right now in this moment, you're the "Back in my day" guy. I can't stand those guys! Well guess what, Guy. It was your cheap generation that ruined it for my generation! Congrats, take a bow "that guy."

I know it's been a while since you've been to flight school, where pilot certs were issued on tissue paper and lamented to last, but flight training costs a **** ton of money. So yes, 60k a year to start isn't asking for much considering what's expected of us...Guy.

Awwww....what a proud millennial!

http://s3.amazonaws.com/images.hitfix.com/assets/2095/selfie.gif

flywithjohn
06-02-2018, 05:52 AM
Maybe it is starting to head in that direction. I believe all three majors have pay scales for regional aircraft.

Pipe dream - accounting will never allow it, ALPA won’t allow it, the boys at the mayors are not risking their seniority number over a regional guy. Those payscales are there to assist management in determining how much money they are making off the regional pilots backs.
On the accounting front it’s not just pilot groups they be stuck with either.

rickair7777
06-02-2018, 08:23 AM
Pipe dream - accounting will never allow it, ALPA won’t allow it, the boys at the mayors are not risking their seniority number over a regional guy. Those payscales are there to assist management in determining how much money they are making off the regional pilots backs.
On the accounting front it’s not just pilot groups they be stuck with either.

Yes.

The only way any regionals are getting "merged" with mainline is if they accept a voluntary staple in a "staple or die" scenario.

The remaining pilots of a failing regional group would be offered staple at a legacy, if they waive all McCaskill-Bond rights. If they refuse, their regional will be terminated for failing contraction performance metrics, and they can apply OTS while collecting unemployment.

COMAIR tried to force the issue.

flywithjohn
06-02-2018, 05:50 PM
COMAIR tried to force the issue.

Bingo! That is why everytime someone starts on about this "Wholly owned is the way to go!" I nicely say "remember Comair?"

The parent company will clieve the regional from heard in a heartbeat if it is going to cause problems with their business. Especially DAL, that is why I don't know why anyone things they want to buy CP.

GearUpHeadDown
06-03-2018, 07:01 PM
The parent company will clieve the regional from heard in a heartbeat if it is going to cause problems with their business. Especially DAL, that is why I don't know why anyone things they want to buy CP.

Why would DL buy CP? They are a staffing company. It’s like buying your rental house from the tenant.



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