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View Full Version : AIP.


Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 05:19 AM
Very, very VERY underwhelmed.

No decision made, OBVIOUSLY.


Aero1900
05-17-2018, 05:29 AM
Can someone please copy and paste for us to see? Thanks

Chimpy
05-17-2018, 05:33 AM
Can someone please copy and paste for us to see? Thanks

https://images.magnetmail.net/images/clients/ALPA/attach/MEC/JBUMEC/JBU_AIP_Bullets(1).pdf

Just cut & paste into your fav web browsaaaaaa.


Looks like your N/C did very well for you guys. Congrats.

Any word on Healthcare?


embraerjetpilot
05-17-2018, 05:46 AM
Joke on profit sharing

Loss of pto sellback

No thanks

queue
05-17-2018, 05:55 AM
https://images.magnetmail.net/images/clients/ALPA/attach/MEC/JBUMEC/JBU_AIP_Bullets(1).pdf

Just cut & paste into your fav web browsaaaaaa.


Looks like your N/C did very well for you guys. Congrats.

Any word on Healthcare?

No they didn't.

This is a NO vote. Too bad they canceled the informational picket. That was very foolish.

Let's see how many defeated JetBlue pilots accept the table scraps.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

United uhhh
05-17-2018, 06:06 AM
I do not see any premium pay opportunities. The only thing mentioned was "at company discretion" You know that will never get turned on, kind of like all the grey areas in the FSM 2010

capt707
05-17-2018, 06:10 AM
Also underwhelmed by the AIP, but I will wait until I see the full language TA.

Regardless, it will pass no matter what.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 06:11 AM
I do not see any premium pay opportunities. The only thing mentioned was "at company discretion" You know that will never get turned on, kind of like all the grey areas in the FSM 2010

Will be interesting if RSA/VDA stay.


My understanding from talking to the MEC is that the 150% flica opentime window will be turned on or off as needed by the company (so don't count on it unless its an IROP)

Chimpy
05-17-2018, 06:17 AM
Ok, well anyway. Good luck, lol

pilotpayne
05-17-2018, 06:20 AM
Ok, well anyway. Good luck, lol

Not yet. Everyone was screaming for bullet points which leads to this. As you know itís about whatís really in the contract. Like others Iím waiting to read it.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 06:25 AM
Not yet. Everyone was screaming for bullet points which leads to this. As you know itís about whatís really in the contract. Like others Iím waiting to read it.

The contract will support the Bullet points. The language won't change a 2% raise or improve upon TODAYS shat profit sharing plan.

There are some good things, for sure. There are also some things I don't think I can agree to. I'll read the whole thing first, of course and weigh it all on balance.

But today's profit sharing plan???? Are you KIDDING me?

cmesoar
05-17-2018, 06:33 AM
The contract will support the Bullet points. The language won't change a 2% raise or improve upon TODAYS shat profit sharing plan.

There are some good things, for sure. There are also some things I don't think I can agree to. I'll read the whole thing first, of course and weigh it all on balance.

But today's profit sharing plan???? Are you KIDDING me?

I agree with you here.
I see lots of improvements that we needed. I still need to see the full TA to make my decision. It looks like one thing we had to compromise on was profit sharing. I am not happy about that, but this needs to be a FULL TA vote, period. The new Vacation/PTO language is another that I need to see. I am happy with the rates, scope, and 5 hour day rig.

Oh, and window or aisle seat for deadheads?? I really hope we did not give up something for that.

Overall, I think the NC did a great job and I can't wait to see the FULL TA to come to my decision and vote accordingly.

JBPA
05-17-2018, 06:41 AM
I agree with you here.
I see lots of improvements that we needed. I still need to see the full TA to make my decision. It looks like one thing we had to compromise on was profit sharing. I am not happy about that, but this needs to be a FULL TA vote, period. The new Vacation/PTO language is another that I need to see. I am happy with the rates, scope, and 5 hour day rig.

Oh, and window or aisle seat for deadheads?? I really hope we did not give up something for that.

Overall, I think the NC did a great job and I can't wait to see the FULL TA to come to my decision and vote accordingly.

You realize itís an average 5 hour/day rig, right?

Overall, Iím underwhelmed.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 06:48 AM
You realize itís an average 5 hour/day rig, right?

Overall, Iím underwhelmed.

Taking this oportunity to update my apps.

What kills me is we agreed to this after ONE PICKET. Finally we were unified for the summer of love and they drop this turd on us.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 06:53 AM
Taking this oportunity to update my apps.

What kills me is we agreed to this after ONE PICKET. Finally we were unified for the summer of love and they drop this turd on us.

I'm coming to this conclusion as well.

ALT SEL ooops
05-17-2018, 06:58 AM
This is a mostly cost neutral contract. I am also a bit in shock we had the summer to make an impact and this is the garbage we were given by the NC.

No vote here

cmesoar
05-17-2018, 07:21 AM
You guys on here are truely entertaining! LOL. They have only released bullet points! Cost neutral? How can you determine that with bullet points? I am just glad I can make my own decision based on the road shows and the full language. I truely hope everyone does that. It most certainly will not be based on what anyone says on a forum! LOL, thanks for the entertainment tho, itís nice!

Hercbubba
05-17-2018, 07:24 AM
This is a YES vote for me.
I can drop down to zero hours with trades. With all the greedy pilots, I can fly 25 Hrs a month and just stay current👍

AYLflyer
05-17-2018, 07:25 AM
These are bulletpoint with a whole lot of missing language. Love how the people on this forum demand information just a few days ago, then when they get it they then interpret it how they see fit before seeing the full contract.

I'm not blown away by the bullet points, but I'm not totally disappointed either. Again, I'll wait until the full language is out to decide whether it's worth a Yes or No vote.

queue
05-17-2018, 07:27 AM
I do not see any premium pay opportunities. The only thing mentioned was "at company discretion" You know that will never get turned on, kind of like all the grey areas in the FSM 2010

We need solid lines drawn. Any contract that requires interpretation is crap, in any industry. Don't accept substandard contract language. We'll see how gray the final language is...... staying tuned (but already a NO vote).



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-17-2018, 07:29 AM
Oh, and window or aisle seat for deadheads?? I really hope we did not give up something for that.

You will now clean toilets while commuting to/from work.

Notice there's no language prohibiting any ancillary duties not related to operating an aircraft. They would have bragged about it otherwise....


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

say again
05-17-2018, 07:30 AM
These are bulletpoint with a whole lot of missing language. Love how the people on this forum demand information just a few days ago, then when they get it they then interpret it how they see fit before seeing the full contract.

I'm not blown away by the bullet points, but I'm not totally disappointed either. Again, I'll wait until the full language is out to decide whether it's worth a Yes or No vote.

Agreed. I'll make an informed decision based on the whole TA. That being said, I'm not overly thrilled with some of the bullet points.

queue
05-17-2018, 07:31 AM
You guys on here are truely entertaining! LOL. They have only released bullet points! Cost neutral? How can you determine that with bullet points? I am just glad I can make my own decision based on the road shows and the full language. I truely hope everyone does that. It most certainly will not be based on what anyone says on a forum! LOL, thanks for the entertainment tho, itís nice!

What does it matter if the BULLET POINTS are already a deal breaker?

I doubt putting lipstick on a pig will make her the prom queen.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Hercbubba
05-17-2018, 07:36 AM
I feel for all you ďNoĒ voters. Like I said yesterday, money talks when it comes to pilots. Itíll pass EZ.
More days off for RSV, industry standard vacation, which means huge CA bid, 16% contribution to 401K, those alone with the pay rates is an automatic ďyesĒ.
We have scope, and merger protection.

If you arenít happy, then getting your apps out should be your priority! Good luck with that!

zulu99
05-17-2018, 07:42 AM
No need to read the language. This is the first offering to the pilot group. Who ever accepts the first offer in a negotiation? Itís my opinion that the NC and MEC have done their job to the best of their abilities. Now itís our obligation as a pilot group to vote this down. There is more to get from this management and it will come quickly. The question is are we capable enough as a group to do whatís necessary to get what we deserve????

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 07:47 AM
No need to read the language. This is the first offering to the pilot group. Who ever accepts the first offer in a negotiation? Itís my opinion that the NC and MEC have done their job to the best of their abilities. Now itís our obligation as a pilot group to vote this down. There is more to get from this management and it will come quickly. The question is are we capable enough as a group to do whatís necessary to get what we deserve????

couldn't disagree more. The MEC voted unanimously to approve this AIP. If they didn't like it, they should have sent it back.

The NC/MEC thinks this is exactly what we deserve.

zulu99
05-17-2018, 07:50 AM
couldn't disagree more. The MEC voted unanimously to approve this AIP. If they didn't like it, they should have sent it back.

The NC/MEC thinks this is exactly what we deserve.

I disagree. The statement is 1000x stronger if it comes from the group and not ďledĒ by union leadership.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 07:53 AM
I disagree. The statement is 1000x stronger if it comes from the group and not ďledĒ by union leadership.

Then why agree in the first place? The summer of pain was upon us. We had the negotiating capital. Why did the NC cave and the MEC back them 100% in caving? Just so we could do a ton of work to say sorry it didn't work out in august? And put us 6 months behind in negotiations?

pilotpayne
05-17-2018, 08:00 AM
I'm coming to this conclusion as well.

Your leaving us bluedriver?

hilltopflyer
05-17-2018, 08:02 AM
Very underwhelmed. Right before summertime hits and they agree to this?! Wow maybe time to vote this down and get a new nc/mec if they think this is ok. So much for all the hard talk they gave us. When are new elections?

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:03 AM
Very underwhelmed. Right before summertime hits and they agree to this?! Wow maybe time to vote this down and get a new nc/mec if they think this is ok. So much for all the hard talk they gave us. When are new elections?

While we are voting differently, I agree. If you vote this down, we have have new MEC elections.

N311JB
05-17-2018, 08:05 AM
Just remember fellas, is this the contract you want 5 years from now give or take? Especially after DAL & UAL ratify theirs next year. Its decent for now but inadequate in the future. The profit sharing is the big bust for me. Thats one we will never get back if we give it away on this deal I think for many it looks good because its the deal we should have had 4 years ago.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 08:05 AM
While we are voting differently, I agree. If you vote this down, we have have new MEC elections.

Why would you be so willing to vote for this? It is sub standard in almost EVERY CATEGORY.

So we voted in ALPA, fought for three years, just so we could be back to 7% discount pilots? Now with DUES?

N311JB
05-17-2018, 08:08 AM
I'll vote yes if we don't have to wait 2hrs for catering!

That aside we need to see language when it comes to IROPs and rescheduling. Heck I just DH to SFO with in an empty seat in Mint. There's so much more than shiny new pay rates that I personally think are already a given and can't be negotiated against

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:10 AM
Why would you be so willing to vote for this? It is sub standard in almost EVERY CATEGORY.

So we voted in ALPA, fought for three years, just so we could be back to 7% discount pilots? Now with DUES?

Where is it substandard? Pay is SWA+ and better than Alaska with better scope. Our Scope-as bulleted-is industry leading. As Queue posted in the other forum, what do you need to vote yes? I'm not trying to bait you and be a dick, just trying to see what the "no voters" have to see to get their minds changed.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:11 AM
I'll vote yes if we don't have to wait 2hrs for catering!

That aside we need to see language when it comes to IROPs and rescheduling. Heck I just DH to SFO with in an empty seat in Mint. There's so much more than shiny new pay rates that I personally think are already a given and can't be negotiated against

This is the reason, arguing over bullet points is sort of silly. The final draft language is really what matters.

Hercbubba
05-17-2018, 08:12 AM
We arenít Delta, UAL, or AA...this deal is better than AK, SWA and HA. Iíll still read the whole TA before a vote, but Iím 99% Iíll vote ďYESĒ, and enough greedy pilots will do the same.
If you donít like it, please leave. I would love some more seniority!

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 08:17 AM
Where is it substandard? Pay is SWA+ and better than Alaska with better scope. Our Scope-as bulleted-is industry leading. As Queue posted in the other forum, what do you need to vote yes? I'm not trying to bait you and be a dick, just trying to see what the "no voters" have to see to get their minds changed.

$276 A321
$265 A320 with a parity snap up WHEN DAL and UAL get raises.

16% 401k day 1

Industry standard profit sharing.

Company funded STD/LTD with benefits that are industry standard.

Oh and 5:00 average daily rig sounds fishy, but we will see. I want 5:00 min calender day, including redeye turns.

Just to start.

Otherwise known as INDUSTRY STANDARD.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 08:19 AM
We arenít Delta, UAL, or AA...this deal is better than AK, SWA and HA. Iíll still read the whole TA before a vote, but Iím 99% Iíll vote ďYESĒ, and enough greedy pilots will do the same.
If you donít like it, please leave. I would love some more seniority!

And to work for less apparently. What will we do when those guys get raises? You do realize SWA has historically made MORE than DAL on the 737 right?

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:25 AM
$276 A321
$265 A320 with a parity snap up WHEN DAL and UAL get raises.

16% 401k day 1

Industry standard profit sharing.

Company funded STD/LTD with benefits that are industry standard.

Oh and 5:00 average daily rig sounds fishy, but we will see. I want 5:00 min calender day, including redeye turns.

Just to start.

Otherwise known as INDUSTRY STANDARD.

I like those Ideas very much.

Especially the "snap up rates." I asked the NC guys about that early in the process and they said they would consider it.

I think you are confusing industry standard for DL and UAL standard. I would have loved to be where they were, but I'm very content (and clearly in the APC minority) with being above SWA and Alaska. I would have loved to see that snap up apply to them, so we are always a few $$$ ahead of them.

I also wish RSV was retooled to be a system similar to DL where RSV guys were always long call and could be short called a max of a few days a month.

I pitched these ideas to the NC guys and they said they would try to work them in. Clearly, they thought my ideas weren't "industry standard."

I truly hope you engaged with the MEC and NC with your wishes before they came up with the AIP.

N311JB
05-17-2018, 08:28 AM
We arenít Delta, UAL, or AA...this deal is better than AK, SWA and HA. Iíll still read the whole TA before a vote, but Iím 99% Iíll vote ďYESĒ, and enough greedy pilots will do the same.
If you donít like it, please leave. I would love some more seniority!

Stop with the "we aren't DAL or UAl" What was Delta before they were Delta. If this group would hold strong we could be those airlines. When I'm at the bar I go for the 9's and 10's not the slump busters. Thats the same attitude I have with everything in life. We are the hardest and most efficient pilots in the world, we should be paid like it

todd1200
05-17-2018, 08:29 AM
Scope is my #1 priority and Iím glad to see ďno jb expressĒ but Iím curious to see the actual language. I would be unwilling to accept legacy rates if they came with legacy scope. Iím leaning yes based on the bullets.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:31 AM
Scope is my #1 priority and Iím glad to see ďno jb expressĒ but Iím curious to see the actual language. I would be unwilling to accept legacy rates if they came with legacy scope. Iím leaning yes based on the bullets.

Scope is huge. Its the biggest risk to our jobs.

The final language is important, because clearly we are still going to codeshare with Jetsuite. It remains to be seen how the final language will be woven in to allow that.

Rickce7
05-17-2018, 08:35 AM
Noticed that FO pay rates on 320/321 at mid levels are a 15% raise. . . seems like the new rates for FO 1st year were financed on the backs of the FO rates, with CA's getting an 18% bump. So, let me get this straight. . .I get a 15% raise, while a non-member CA gets an 18% raise? Am I missing something there? I realize that pay rates are a minor portion of the new contract but still. . . Doesn't wow me.

BeatNavy
05-17-2018, 08:39 AM
We aren’t Delta, UAL, or AA...this deal is better than AK, SWA and HA. I’ll still read the whole TA before a vote, but I’m 99% I’ll vote “YES”, and enough greedy pilots will do the same.
If you don’t like it, please leave. I would love some more seniority!

You are right. We aren’t DL/UAL/AA. JB makes more than they do per seat and per pilot. We should be paid accordingly.

Rickce7
05-17-2018, 08:40 AM
Also, looks like they used negotiating capital with the new CS rates versus the 190 rates. Ok, great. . . There are zero guarantees that we will get those jets. The company has a new incentive to buy E2's now.

AYLflyer
05-17-2018, 08:41 AM
As Queue posted in the other forum, what do you need to vote yes? I'm not trying to bait you and be a dick, just trying to see what the "no voters" have to see to get their minds changed.

I'm neither a yes or no until I see full language as I posted on the other page, but I'll respond to a few things that will get a YES from me.

Pay rates are important, but not top priority for me. So many people get blinded by awesome pay rates, but ignore substandard work rules and benefits.



SCOPE. You can pay me $500/hr but with no scope, it's no deal.
Retirement- 15+% from day 1
Insurance rates need to drop.
Work rules...minimum DAILY guarantee, not some average that scheduling can work into their favor somehow. If I'm at work, I need to be paid. I'll also add, BLOCK or better per LEG need to be in the language, not per day like I believe Spirit has in their new contract. If I'm sitting in a deice pad for 2hrs, that should be an extra 2 hrs of pay, not something that is later averaged for a potential loss of income. Also part of work rules, schedule modifications as a lineholder and RSV. If I'm a line holder, I shouldn't be able to just be assigned a new trip if mine cancels and they find something in the current trip footprint. New trip? Pay protection plus something like JR pay or higher and voluntary acceptance.
Trip trading/schedule modifications with defined language especially for IROPs
Improvements in PTO/vacation time with defined language.

That's just a few things off the top of my head. In todays environment, where places like AA and UAL are literally flipping over their seniority list due to retirements, and regionals can't staff the left seat even by forcing people to upgrade, we deserve industry standard with ZERO concession.

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 08:47 AM
We arenít Delta, UAL, or AA...this deal is better than AK, SWA and HA. Iíll still read the whole TA before a vote, but Iím 99% Iíll vote ďYESĒ, and enough greedy pilots will do the same.
If you donít like it, please leave. I would love some more seniority!

How exactly is this better than AK and SWA?

Don't like it leave? Really?

GFY.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:48 AM
I'm neither a yes or no until I see full language as I posted on the other page, but I'll respond to a few things that will get a YES from me.

Pay rates are important, but not top priority for me. So many people get blinded by awesome pay rates, but ignore substandard work rules and benefits.



SCOPE. You can pay me $500/hr but with no scope, it's no deal.
Retirement- 15+% from day 1
Insurance rates need to drop.
Work rules...minimum DAILY guarantee, not some average that scheduling can work into their favor somehow. If I'm at work, I need to be paid. I'll also add, BLOCK or better per LEG need to be in the language, not per day like I believe Spirit has in their new contract. If I'm sitting in a deice pad for 2hrs, that should be an extra 2 hrs of pay, not something that is later averaged for a potential loss of income. Also part of work rules, schedule modifications as a lineholder and RSV. If I'm a line holder, I shouldn't be able to just be assigned a new trip if mine cancels and they find something in the current trip footprint. New trip? Pay protection plus something like JR pay or higher and voluntary acceptance.
Trip trading/schedule modifications with defined language especially for IROPs
Improvements in PTO/vacation time with defined language.

That's just a few things off the top of my head. In todays environment, where places like AA and UAL are literally flipping over their seniority list due to retirements, and regionals can't staff the left seat even by forcing people to upgrade, we deserve industry standard with ZERO concession.

Many of those things are addressed (partially) in the bullet points.

Scope is going to be industry leading.
401K is 15% from day one, as you have asked for.

The Bullet points address many of your concerns, and it appears, they meet many of your requirements.

A large portion of what you have asked for wont be included until the final language is released, but I suspect everything you want will be included.

(note: only thing you didn't get that I can see if the 5 hr min day vs. avg 5 hours min day.)

cencal83406
05-17-2018, 08:49 AM
Pay rates aren't everything but...

E-190 12yr CA 5/1/2019 $211.34 JBU, 1/1/2019 $182.55 DAL

Saabs
05-17-2018, 08:52 AM
Very, very VERY underwhelmed.

No decision made, OBVIOUSLY.

Letís see..... APC chest thumpers are a resounding no. That means it passes with 80%

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 08:53 AM
Letís see..... APC chest thumpers are a resounding no. That means it passes with 80%

I think its 60/40.....

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 08:56 AM
Will wait for final language but here's what I see right now:

- Pay rates increase May 1 instead of Jan 1 which will keep us below SWA for 7 months out of the year.

- 2% increase each year of contract vs 3-4% like everyone else. So we fall further and further behind all our peers each year.

- 320 FO rate is below peer average.

- No 321 override. With all our future orders being 321s, we fall further behind our peers

- OE trips withheld. Major violation of seniority

- Current profit sharing program codified. How was your PS check compared to Delta, United, SWA, etc last year. I'm pretty sure United FA's made more in PS than most of JB pilots.

- PTO sellback at straight pay now.

- Increased PTO accrual only 2 hrs per month more. Ridiculously low since it's both the vacation and sick bank.

- Weak, WEAK signing bonus amount.

- Avg daily credit vs MIN daily/FDP credit.

Like I said before, I'll wait til I read the entire contract and attend the road shows, but first glance, there's no way anyone's going to be able to polish this turd to turn my vote into a yes.

N311JB
05-17-2018, 09:07 AM
Agree with all this Bunker said.

The bonus is a joke Thats essentially our lost profit sharing. And with Trump's new laxed tax laws, there has to be better profit sharing. There has to be some sort of incentive for working hard. The 150% at the company's will is suspect too. I just think there might be buyers remorse after DAL & UAL come out. And its odd there's no mention of bigger aircraft. Something we all need to remember too is the career expectation. We will never have the opportunity to fly bigger aircraft for more pay. Thats a huge limiting factor but one I understood when taking this job

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 09:11 AM
Question for those smarter than I am:



Should we read into the last bullet that states, "Industry standard augmented operation provisions."

In my mind, the 321LR shouldn't be doing more than 8/9hrs. Maybe new airplane? maybe right at 8 or 9hrs?


Transcon turns w/3 pilots?


discuss.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 09:12 AM
Agree with all this Bunker said.

The bonus is a joke Thats essentially our lost profit sharing. And with Trump's new laxed tax laws, there has to be better profit sharing. There has to be some sort of incentive for working hard. The 150% at the company's will is suspect too. I just think there might be buyers remorse after DAL & UAL come out. And its odd there's no mention of bigger aircraft. Something we all need to remember too is the career expectation. We will never have the opportunity to fly bigger aircraft for more pay. Thats a huge limiting factor but one I understood when taking this job

I agree. I really wish 150% was solidified for all open time.

GuppyPuppy
05-17-2018, 09:15 AM
Pay rates aren't everything but...

E-190 12yr CA 5/1/2019 $211.34 JBU, 1/1/2019 $182.55 DAL

But Delta doesn't fly, nor do they intend to fly the E190.

Gup

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 09:25 AM
But Delta doesn't fly, nor do they intend to fly the E190.

Gup


True. You can just look at their C series and A320/321 rates to see the 10%+ "Jetblue pilot discount".

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 09:25 AM
P2P call tonight to discuss the AIP


To those unhappy with the AIP-- please reach out to either the MEC or P2P reps so they can discuss on the call.


Something this important isn't worth being ****ed on a message board and not calling in to let the MEC know.

402DRVR
05-17-2018, 09:29 AM
And for all its faults please reach out on the ALPA webboard. Real names will carry a lot more credibility than anonymous posts. If you are not happy with this post why there and it will be addressed when we have a full TA to consider.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 09:42 AM
Where is it substandard? Pay is SWA+ and better than Alaska with better scope. Our Scope-as bulleted-is industry leading. As Queue posted in the other forum, what do you need to vote yes? I'm not trying to bait you and be a dick, just trying to see what the "no voters" have to see to get their minds changed.

A320 FO pay is notably LESS than SW. Both FO and CA pay will be less than SWA in Sept, roughly 1 month after ratification.

Profit sharing MUCH worse than SWA.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 09:45 AM
Will wait for final language but here's what I see right now:

- Pay rates increase May 1 instead of Jan 1 which will keep us below SWA for 7 months out of the year.

- 2% increase each year of contract vs 3-4% like everyone else. So we fall further and further behind all our peers each year.

- 320 FO rate is below peer average.

- No 321 override. With all our future orders being 321s, we fall further behind our peers

- OE trips withheld. Major violation of seniority

- Current profit sharing program codified. How was your PS check compared to Delta, United, SWA, etc last year. I'm pretty sure United FA's made more in PS than most of JB pilots.

- PTO sellback at straight pay now.

- Increased PTO accrual only 2 hrs per month more. Ridiculously low since it's both the vacation and sick bank.

- Weak, WEAK signing bonus amount.

- Avg daily credit vs MIN daily/FDP credit.

Like I said before, I'll wait til I read the entire contract and attend the road shows, but first glance, there's no way anyone's going to be able to polish this turd to turn my vote into a yes.


Agree with ALL. Sooo very disappointed.

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 09:46 AM
Marginal offer at best. I gotta read it and question pointedly.
We obviously can do better, but this is what the survey reflected.
65-35? Voted down? 80-20?
SOP---CBA. How ever long that takes guys. Good luck to us all.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 09:48 AM
A320 FO pay is notably LESS than SW. Both FO and CA pay will be less than SWA in Sept, roughly 1 month after ratification.

Profit sharing MUCH worse than SWA.

You are right. I missed that. I'm about $4 less an hour than SWA. Still close, but I wish we were higher.


No argument on profit sharing.

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 09:51 AM
You are right. I missed that. I'm about $4 less an hour than SWA. Still close, but I wish we were higher.


No argument on profit sharing.

$7 less. And that's just until September. Then the gap widens exponentially YOY from there.

It's not close. And it's going to get worse each year.

It's the exact same 12 year 320FO rate Alaska has right now. Guess what their yearly increase is. Here's a hint: it's greater than 2%.

todd1200
05-17-2018, 09:52 AM
A320 FO pay is notably LESS than SW. Both FO and CA pay will be less than SWA in Sept, roughly 1 month after ratification.

Profit sharing MUCH worse than SWA.

Looks like the FO rates are higher than SWA for Year 1 - Year 4 FOs.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 09:53 AM
$7 less. And that's just until September. Then the gap widens exponentially YOY from there.

It's not close. And it's going to get worse each year.

It's the exact same 12 year 320FO rate Alaska has right now. Guess what their yearly increase is. Here's a hint: it's greater than 2%.

So call your P2P rep or the MEC and tell them that this is BS.

Tell them you are offended that the NC brought it to a vote and are even more offended that they voted 12-0 to move forward with it.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 09:54 AM
Looks like the FO rates are higher than SWA for Year 1 - Year 4 FOs.

Most of us will never be 1-4 year FOs again bud.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 09:55 AM
And all SWA rates go up 3% in Sept this year, so we'll be even further behind.

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 10:02 AM
So call your P2P rep or the MEC and tell them that this is BS.

Tell them you are offended that the NC brought it to a vote and are even more offended that they voted 12-0 to move forward with it.

I am a P2P rep. Tonight's call will be very interesting.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 10:03 AM
I am a P2P rep. Tonight's call will be very interesting.

Where are the ALPA forums?

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 10:05 AM
Where are the ALPA forums?

?


<filler>

zulu99
05-17-2018, 10:06 AM
Stop with the "we aren't DAL or UAl" What was Delta before they were Delta. If this group would hold strong we could be those airlines. When I'm at the bar I go for the 9's and 10's not the slump busters. Thats the same attitude I have with everything in life. We are the hardest and most efficient pilots in the world, we should be paid like it

I couldn't agree with this statement more! Unfortunately 90% plus of the guys I fly with are soft and are happy with scraps from their overlords. It's sickening really.

402DRVR
05-17-2018, 10:07 AM
Where are the ALPA forums?

Go to B6 Alpa and sign in. ALPA Webboards are one of the boxes you can sign in on. Has the added benefit of knowing the those who comment are actually B6 ALPA members.

CaptCoolHand
05-17-2018, 10:09 AM
I am a P2P rep. Tonight's call will be very interesting.

Hear ya there

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 10:14 AM
Go to B6 Alpa and sign in. ALPA Webboards are one of the boxes you can sign in on. Has the added benefit of knowing the those who comment are actually B6 ALPA members.

Found it. Hotbed of activity.

Just kidding.

Laker24
05-17-2018, 10:23 AM
We are the hardest and most efficient pilots in the world, we should be paid like it

Are you serious?

ALT SEL ooops
05-17-2018, 10:41 AM
The company out played us here. We all know this will vote yes by a slight margin and the company basically got the cheapest contract they could get away with.

Id rather sell my pto, and pick up rsa and vda any day over this crap. Cant wait for my pay cut on the 190. Im in shock or NC agreed to this. My old jetblue lanyard is looking pretty shiny at the moment😞

N311JB
05-17-2018, 10:57 AM
Are you serious?

Um yes, maybe I'm out over my skis, sorry in the USA. Have you been beaten that badly. We have pairings that touch every hour in the day. Our aircrafts are the most utilized. They must fly themselves. Ever wonder why you can't get vacation in the summer? Sorry but if you think 85hr lines is normal. Or VDA's every day is normal. Heck some airlines even have a cap. You go over 100hrs it starts banking into your sick time. Other airlines allow you to drop below guarantee. DAL's lines are built to @70hrs. AA used to be @68hrs although I haven't checked in awhile. Big kid airline stuff

Hercbubba
05-17-2018, 11:03 AM
Letís vote ďNOĒ so we can go back to the table and negotiate for another 1-2 yrs. Then end up with a bit more or a bit less.
If you guys want SWA, AA, UAL or Delta pay rates, then take your **s to those companies and sell yourself. You complainers could have and should have left years ago, but you didnít and now youíre stuck here. Complain all you want, but anyone *****in about a couple of bucks difference in pay, is pretty silly.
It ainít a perfect contract, but did you really expect to be the industry leaders?
Once again, leave if you arenít happy. Iíll venture to say, none of you will even call the ALPA reps to express your concerns about the AIP.
Just keep complaining on chat room, where the majority of you think your negative opinions will change the world!
I look forward to seeing retaliation posts...because as always, nothing will come out of it...
Vote will be a ďYESĒ. Especially if 12-0 reps voted yes.
If we vote ďNOĒ, then all the reps get fired, we start over and probably end up worse.
Vote ďNOĒ if you want that outcome...

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 11:06 AM
Letís vote ďNOĒ so we can go back to the table and negotiate for another 1-2 yrs. Then end up with a bit more or a bit less.
If you guys want SWA, AA, UAL or Delta pay rates, then take your **s to those companies and sell yourself. You complainers could have and should have left years ago, but you didnít and now youíre stuck here. Complain all you want, but anyone *****in about a couple of bucks difference in pay, is pretty silly.
It ainít a perfect contract, but did you really expect to be the industry leaders?
Once again, leave if you arenít happy. Iíll venture to say, none of you will even call the ALPA reps to express your concerns about the AIP.
Just keep complaining on chat room, where the majority of you think your negative opinions will change the world!
I look forward to seeing retaliation posts...because as always, nothing will come out of it...
Vote will be a ďYESĒ. Especially if 12-0 reps voted yes.
If we vote ďNOĒ, then all the reps get fired, we start over and probably end up worse.
Vote ďNOĒ if you want that outcome...

I feel similarly, but take a less hard line.

I feel like I should get popcorn now.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 11:25 AM
Letís vote ďNOĒ so we can go back to the table and negotiate for another 1-2 yrs. Then end up with a bit more or a bit less.
If you guys want SWA, AA, UAL or Delta pay rates, then take your **s to those companies and sell yourself. You complainers could have and should have left years ago, but you didnít and now youíre stuck here. Complain all you want, but anyone *****in about a couple of bucks difference in pay, is pretty silly.
It ainít a perfect contract, but did you really expect to be the industry leaders?
Once again, leave if you arenít happy. Iíll venture to say, none of you will even call the ALPA reps to express your concerns about the AIP.
Just keep complaining on chat room, where the majority of you think your negative opinions will change the world!
I look forward to seeing retaliation posts...because as always, nothing will come out of it...
Vote will be a ďYESĒ. Especially if 12-0 reps voted yes.
If we vote ďNOĒ, then all the reps get fired, we start over and probably end up worse.
Vote ďNOĒ if you want that outcome...

Don't be a Richard. It's possibly not just a couple bucks bud. Hourly rate yes, but more like 10-20 an hour over the next couple years as we start behind and only get 2%, while others are already higher and get 3%+ and some like Delta and United are going into negotiations.

Then there is the profit sharing plan. If it really is this year's plan in the TA, that paid our captains 5-8k this year I think. Delta guys were getting 40-70k. SWA 20-30 I think.

Please correct me if my numbers are wrong, but that's NOT a couple of bucks.

pilotpayne
05-17-2018, 11:37 AM
Don't be a Richard. It's possibly not just a couple bucks bud. Hourly rate yes, but more like 10-20 an hour over the next couple years as we start behind and only get 2%, while others are already higher and get 3%+ and some like Delta and United are going into negotiations.

Then there is the profit sharing plan. If it really is this year's plan in the TA, that paid our captains 5-8k this year I think. Delta guys were getting 40-70k. SWA 20-30 I think.

Please correct me if my numbers are wrong, but that's NOT a couple of bucks.


POSSIBLY is the key word.

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 11:53 AM
Letís vote ďNOĒ so we can go back to the table and negotiate for another 1-2 yrs. Then end up with a bit more or a bit less.
If you guys want SWA, AA, UAL or Delta pay rates, then take your **s to those companies and sell yourself. You complainers could have and should have left years ago, but you didnít and now youíre stuck here. Complain all you want, but anyone *****in about a couple of bucks difference in pay, is pretty silly.
It ainít a perfect contract, but did you really expect to be the industry leaders?
Once again, leave if you arenít happy. Iíll venture to say, none of you will even call the ALPA reps to express your concerns about the AIP.
Just keep complaining on chat room, where the majority of you think your negative opinions will change the world!
I look forward to seeing retaliation posts...because as always, nothing will come out of it...
Vote will be a ďYESĒ. Especially if 12-0 reps voted yes.
If we vote ďNOĒ, then all the reps get fired, we start over and probably end up worse.
Vote ďNOĒ if you want that outcome...


Couple of bucks? $274-$258=$16

$16◊900hrs/yr=$14,000 PER YEAR for a CA on the 321

Now add in STD/LTD.

Couple of bucks...

hyperboy
05-17-2018, 12:07 PM
Very, very VERY underwhelmed.

No decision made, OBVIOUSLY.

Nobody cares about your coward bullying hide behind the keyboard opinion you have a ONE VOTE.......Use it!

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 12:18 PM
POSSIBLY is the key word.

What is your point? Who are our pay rates higher than after Sept this year?

How did you March profit sharing check compare to a narrow body Delta or SWA captains?

Honest questions?

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 12:19 PM
Nobody cares about your coward bullying hide behind the keyboard opinion you have a ONE VOTE.......Use it!

The idiot speaks.

Yes, yes, we know, your are happy with the AIP.

ColdWhiskey
05-17-2018, 12:23 PM
...Question from an outsider...

Did your pilot group and NC ever increase your initial "ask" as the process drug out for many years and other pilot groups made significant advances with higher wages and better benefits?

Thanks

PasserOGas
05-17-2018, 12:26 PM
...Question from an outsider...

Did your pilot group and NC ever increase your initial "ask" as the process drug out for many years and other pilot groups made significant advances with higher wages and better benefits?

Thanks

No idea. They kept us in the dark the whole time.

hyperboy
05-17-2018, 12:27 PM
The idiot speaks.

Yes, yes, we know, your are happy with the AIP.

BlueDriver the closet juicer yet again speaks for everyone else (don't speak for me) since he hides....Call me.....Man up!


Maybe your the company troll and the reason you won't call me is you are a coward?

Rickce7
05-17-2018, 12:39 PM
The more I read the language on the signing bonus the more it sucks. . . They would need to come at us a lot harder than the ave $13,800 to get me to a yes vote. After 3+ years, about $8k after taxes is going to be a 'sweetener?' Total joke. . .

SilentLurker
05-17-2018, 12:52 PM
I do not see any premium pay opportunities. The only thing mentioned was "at company discretion" You know that will never get turned on, kind of like all the grey areas in the FSM 2010


FYI...

Premium pay does not get turned on at AA.... except Decemberís rear scheduling fiasco. hardly any OT flying ever available at AA. Unless you guys/gals want to be like Southwest. Research what other mainline does. If Iím wrong correct me with facts.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 12:58 PM
BlueDriver the closet juicer yet again speaks for everyone else (don't speak for me) since he hides....Call me.....Man up!


Maybe your the company troll and the reason you won't call me is you are a coward?

Yeah maybe. Or, I think you are a tool of EPIC proportions and believe you would turn my identity into the chiefs office in a second.

So no thanks.

Go spank it to the AIP.

Rickce7
05-17-2018, 01:02 PM
Again, I am focusing on the pay rates. . I know, I know. . It's not everything with a contract. But, I am stuck on the fact that there was not an even raise through the pilot group. So, me, a 7 year FO gets about 15%, after having paid dues for 3+ years. I'll be sitting next to some non-member 12 year CA. . didn't pay anything for 3+ years and they get an 18% raise? You tell me where the justice is in that? I realize that I can bid CA and make the higher rate but it just doesn't sit well with me.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 01:03 PM
Yeah maybe. Or, I think you are a tool of EPIC proportions and believe you would turn my identity into the chiefs office in a second.

So no thanks.

Go spank it to the AIP.

I feel like there is a back story I'm missing here......

N311JB
05-17-2018, 01:09 PM
Obviously today was just the highlights but seriously the little things. No crew meals. No guaranteed downtown layovers over 16hrs. All that stuff adds up. Of course Iím a pilot and Iíll complain about everything but Iím tired of laying over in Tacoma for a Seattle overnight.

slimothy
05-17-2018, 01:11 PM
Don't be a Richard. It's possibly not just a couple bucks bud. Hourly rate yes, but more like 10-20 an hour over the next couple years as we start behind and only get 2%, while others are already higher and get 3%+ and some like Delta and United are going into negotiations.

Then there is the profit sharing plan. If it really is this year's plan in the TA, that paid our captains 5-8k this year I think. Delta guys were getting 40-70k. SWA 20-30 I think.

Please correct me if my numbers are wrong, but that's NOT a couple of bucks.

SWA had 11% PS, which is deposited into a retirement plan. No cashout option. In other words, between PS and DC, SWA Pilots has 25% of there income deposited into a retirement account, without depositing a dime out of there own pockets (I know at some point guys top out at how much can be deposited, Iím not in that class yet).

To be fair, there is no PS guarantee in the SWA contract, but I think this year was a pretty typical year.

When comparing contracts, that ainít nothing.

We also go back into negotiations in 2020, and I expect to see significant improvements.

Iíll offer no opinions on your AIP, not my place. I will simply renew my best wishes to the group, and hope you guys end up with something great, whether it be this one or another.

AYLflyer
05-17-2018, 01:18 PM
Again, I am focusing on the pay rates. . I know, I know. . It's not everything with a contract. But, I am stuck on the fact that there was not an even raise through the pilot group. So, me, a 7 year FO gets about 15%, after having paid dues for 3+ years. I'll be sitting next to some non-member 12 year CA. . didn't pay anything for 3+ years and they get an 18% raise? You tell me where the justice is in that? I realize that I can bid CA and make the higher rate but it just doesn't sit well with me.

Pay rates shouldn't be the only focus but I agree with your rationale.

Non members reaping rewards is absolutely bull****.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 01:28 PM
Again, I am focusing on the pay rates. . I know, I know. . It's not everything with a contract. But, I am stuck on the fact that there was not an even raise through the pilot group. So, me, a 7 year FO gets about 15%, after having paid dues for 3+ years. I'll be sitting next to some non-member 12 year CA. . didn't pay anything for 3+ years and they get an 18% raise? You tell me where the justice is in that? I realize that I can bid CA and make the higher rate but it just doesn't sit well with me.

I noticed that as well. Airbus captains got a bigger percentage raise than the FOs.

WhistlePig
05-17-2018, 01:32 PM
Pay rates shouldn't be the only focus but I agree with your rationale.

Non members reaping rewards is absolutely bull****.

You do know that there is no legal remedy for your complaint. And the non-union list is pretty short. You are yelling at clouds ...

queue
05-17-2018, 01:37 PM
Nobody cares about your coward bullying hide behind the keyboard opinion you have a ONE VOTE.......Use it!

So if you don't agree with him, he's a bully?

Perhaps you need to take a time out in your safe space if you can't handle what he said.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

11Bravo
05-17-2018, 01:46 PM
Completely unacceptable NC... NO VOTE HERE

Std Deviation
05-17-2018, 01:46 PM
What were you seriously expecting? You could promise a pilot a handie on tuesdays and thursdays while he eats his crew meal and heíd squawk about not getting one on Wednesday and complain thereís no olive oil to go with the bread (or the handie). Iím back to the doomsday prepper/survivalist/gun nut/zombie apocalypse boards where the arguments are more lucid, cogent, and rational...

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 01:48 PM
What were you seriously expecting? You could promise a pilot a handie on tuesdays and thursdays while he eats his crew meal and heíd squawk about not getting one on Wednesday and complain thereís no olive oil to go with the bread (or the handie). Iím back to the doomsday prepper/survivalist/gun nut/zombie apocalypse boards where the arguments are more lucid, cogent, and rational...


Lmao. +1......

N10DJ
05-17-2018, 02:17 PM
When do DAL/UAL start negotiating? Also, is there even a such thing as industry standard PS? From an outsider, good luck yes or no.

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 02:30 PM
Completely unacceptable NC... NO VOTE HERE

Which part of the work/rsv rules do you hate? Can you tell me about them?:rolleyes:

hyperboy
05-17-2018, 02:31 PM
What were you seriously expecting? You could promise a pilot a handie on tuesdays and thursdays while he eats his crew meal and heíd squawk about not getting one on Wednesday and complain thereís no olive oil to go with the bread (or the handie). Iím back to the doomsday prepper/survivalist/gun nut/zombie apocalypse boards where the arguments are more lucid, cogent, and rational...

This made me laugh big time.. I hear no one likes giving a handie more than BlueDriver...so be careful out on the line!

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 02:32 PM
So if you don't agree with him, he's a bully?

Perhaps you need to take a time out in your safe space if you can't handle what he said.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Hey Q- tell me about the work rules and rsv improvements. Lets compare how much the W2 increase will improve with a No vote...
Ill wait.:)

hyperboy
05-17-2018, 02:44 PM
This all sounds good to say!...........


A NO vote is only as good as the receipt (with a NO vote) printed and available for your fellow pilots to see of the NO vote.


Finding a printed "No vote" is like seeing a jackalope, a unicorn or maybe even BlueDriver not giving a handle........

11Bravo
05-17-2018, 03:50 PM
And yes, I have spoken to my P2P rep about the issues that I see

UALinIAH
05-17-2018, 04:17 PM
When do DAL/UAL start negotiating? Also, is there even a such thing as industry standard PS? From an outsider, good luck yes or no.

We (UAL) are in early negotiations now. Not a single section is agreed upon but initial offers were passed and negotiations started a few months ago. We still have a scheduled 4% raise in Jan so I don’t think anyone is feeling too rushed either.

Also I just looked at our profile payrates in APC. They’re from 2017. Currently A320/321 is $272/186 in Jan goes to $283/193. Just for a reference since many have compared your current TA to other majors.

Best of luck!

benzoate
05-17-2018, 04:33 PM
A few thoughts.

Signing bonus - typically reserved for carriers who already have contracts and delay negotiations. Jetblue has no contract and therefore we shouldnít expect or compare ourselves to Spirit.

OE trips - FOís have figured out they can bid all the trips that a CKA bids and ultimately get bought off essentiallly working the system.

Iím not fan of jetblue, everyone knows that, but some of these issues need to be seen for what they are. Happy to get a signing bonus( should it pass) and working the system is not a long term solution.

PTOSB - never used it and donít care if itís removed. Selling back sick time because I canít use it for vacation because jetblue refuses to provide proper allotments is not worth saving.
Provide proper vacation allotments and a sick bank.

Solid NO vote if insurance is not codified in the agreement. $2600 deductible is rediculous in this industry with an airline like jetblue. Each year they gut the insurance further and if itís not in the agreement jetblue will use our healthcare as a mechanism to offset the pay raise and retirement.

Contract or not Jetblue is not the honest decent company they portend to be.

If its not in the agreement, ladies and gents, consider it a moving target that will get worse and cost you money year over year.

You younger pilots take this issue seriously. Especially those of you who hope to get married and/or have families.

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 04:40 PM
A few thoughts.

Signing bonus - typically reserved for carriers who already have contracts and delay negotiations. Jetblue has no contract and therefore we shouldnít expect or compare ourselves to Spirit.

OE trips - FOís have figured out they can bid all the trips that a CKA bids and ultimately get bought off essentiallly working the system.

Iím not fan of jetblue, everyone knows that, but some of these issues need to be seen for what they are. Happy to get a signing bonus( should it pass) and working the system is not a long term solution.

PTOSB - never used it and donít care if itís removed. Selling back sick time because I canít use it for vacation because jetblue refuses to provide proper allotments is not worth saving.
Provide proper vacation allotments and a sick bank.

Solid NO vote if insurance is not codified in the agreement. $2600 deductible is rediculous in this industry with an airline like jetblue. Each year they gut the insurance further and if itís not in the agreement jetblue will use our healthcare as a mechanism to offset the pay raise and retirement.

Contract or not Jetblue is not the honest decent company they portend to be.

If its not in the agreement, ladies and gents, consider it a moving target that will get worse and cost you money year over year.

You younger pilots take this issue seriously. Especially those of you who hope to get married and/or have families.
100% agreed. At some point you have to trust that the NC knew where the limit was and got close.
It may not look great upon a glance, but lets see what it means for day to day/ Yr to Yr QOL. It seems the absolute NO votes are reacting in anger and frustration- That is emotion over intellect.
Lets see it all and then kill it if it needs to die.
For those of you who think B6 owes you for lost wages etc and that the mediator should consider that... Your dreaming. NEVER gonna happen.

cmesoar
05-17-2018, 05:01 PM
100% agreed. At some point you have to trust that the NC knew where the limit was and got close.
It may not look great upon a glance, but lets see what it means for day to day/ Yr to Yr QOL. It seems the absolute NO votes are reacting in anger and frustration- That is emotion over intellect.
Lets see it all and then kill it if it needs to die.
For those of you who think B6 owes you for lost wages etc and that the mediator should consider that... Your dreaming. NEVER gonna happen.

Ok ok, first time for everything as I have to say I agree with you! Lets see this thing in full language and make our decision.

benzoate
05-17-2018, 05:08 PM
The NC are educated, high character individuals. These arenít PVC pilots trying to gain a management job. Trust but verify.

seekingblue
05-17-2018, 05:12 PM
anyone on the P2P call tonight?

if so please keep us updated.

Bgood
05-17-2018, 05:34 PM
Anyone heard anything about training pay? Is it the same $2000 a month flat? Kinda rough.


Thanks

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 06:08 PM
Ok ok, first time for everything as I have to say I agree with you! Lets see this thing in full language and make our decision.

See there's hope for every one- Glad you finally see the light:D
Jkg. Yea- the work rules cannot be truly understood in bulletpoints and therefore, guys have no idea what their QOL will become.
I just trust that the NC got what they could and SCOPE SCOPE SCOPE.:cool:

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 06:09 PM
The NC are educated, high character individuals. These arenít PVC pilots trying to gain a management job. Trust but verify.
With you on this. Havent heard a bad word about them except from guys who dont know them.

BunkerF16
05-17-2018, 06:16 PM
A few thoughts.

OE trips - FO’s have figured out they can bid all the trips that a CKA bids and ultimately get bought off essentiallly working the system





Working the system? WTF are you talking about? This is a blatant violation of seniority. So F-ing what if with that seniority they're able to get trips bought off. It happens at every airline. Delta voted no on their last contract the first time in part because of this very issue. Nice to see they don't eat their own like you selfish Fuk's do.

It's not all about bidding trips off. Now the senior FOs will bid more productive trips that would have gone to less senior FOs, or they're upgrade and deny other guys an upgrade who may have wanted it earlier.

This group can be so F-ing short sighted sometimes.

nuball5
05-17-2018, 06:26 PM
Anyone heard anything about training pay? Is it the same $2000 a month flat? Kinda rough.


Thanks

Nothing yet...the AIP was strong when it came to first year pay, so they might've addressed the poor training pay.

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 06:29 PM
Working the system? WTF are you talking about? This is a blatant violation of seniority. So F-ing what if with that seniority they're able to get trips bought off. It happens at every airline. Delta voted no on their last contract the first time in part because of this very issue. Nice to see they don't eat their own like you selfish Fuk's do.

It's not all about bidding trips off. Not the senior FOs will bid more productive trips that would have gone to lower senior FOs, or they're upgrade and deny other guys an upgrade who may have wanted it earlier.

This group can be so F-ing short sighted sometimes.

Totally agree.

Now suppose I'm an FO that wants to bid overnights in my hometown bluecity, but the check airmen bid those, so they were removed from the FO bid! No overnights at home for me.

Or I want to bid Europe trips, but the check airmen like those so they were removed from the bid!

But as you said, other airlines let their FOs bid check airmen trips, it's just the cost of doing business.

This is BS.

Bozo the pilot
05-17-2018, 06:31 PM
Working the system? WTF are you talking about? This is a blatant violation of seniority. So F-ing what if with that seniority they're able to get trips bought off. It happens at every airline. Delta voted no on their last contract the first time in part because of this very issue. Nice to see they don't eat their own like you selfish Fuk's do.

It's not all about bidding trips off. Not the senior FOs will bid more productive trips that would have gone to lower senior FOs, or they're upgrade and deny other guys an upgrade who may have wanted it earlier.

This group can be so F-ing short sighted sometimes.
Yes this helps B6 and that bothers me. With you on this 16.
This thing has to be judged as a whole, not on cherry-picking comparisons.

SilentLurker
05-17-2018, 06:44 PM
A320 FO pay is notably LESS than SW. Both FO and CA pay will be less than SWA in Sept, roughly 1 month after ratification.



Profit sharing MUCH worse than SWA.



Guess you should fly for SW.... and be as large as SW, and move traffics like SW, and generate revenue like SW, and scale ur economy like SW, and hedge fuel like SW, and recruit military pilots like SW,

Ooh and generate profits like SW.


Your E190/195 pay rate in this AIP is way more than AA offers. FWIW, captain on a flight I just got off was just comparing this AIP rates to actual American Group 1 rates & Group 2 rates (A320/321) on the CA rates, itís basically on par & so heís pist that APA should have requested more, and that now even JetBlue is caught up/catching up, that AAG pilots should earn more than a LCC pilots.

Letter3
05-17-2018, 06:47 PM
Pay rates shouldn't be the only focus but I agree with your rationale.

Non members reaping rewards is absolutely bull****.


I agree, no raises for non-members on my back. If they want the raise they can settle up first with 1.9% of their earnings for last 3+ years.

Happyflyer
05-17-2018, 06:53 PM
United withholds for IOE, they also buy off too. Sounds like y'all show try to negoicate for 50% then, or stipulate only one trip can be pulled for each FO per month.

Also reading through this, it appears that some are referencing industry "best" and calling it "standard".
If it's the best call it the best, not a "standard".

Bluedriver
05-17-2018, 06:56 PM
Guess you should fly for SW.... and be as large as SW, and move traffics like SW, and generate revenue like SW, and scale ur economy like SW, and hedge fuel like SW, and recruit military pilots like SW,

Ooh and generate profits like SW.


Your E190/195 pay rate in this AIP is way more than AA offers. FWIW, captain on a flight I just got off was just comparing this AIP rates to actual American Group 1 rates & Group 2 rates (A320/321) on the CA rates, itís basically on par & so heís pist that APA should have requested more, and that now even JetBlue is caught up/catching up, that AAG pilots should earn more than a LCC pilots.

Our profit margins are in line with SW. Enough said.

And.... My post was in response to someone who said our new pay was higher than SW. It's not, and that was the point of the post.

Do you have something actually useful to contribute?

Saabs
05-17-2018, 07:02 PM
The company out played us here. We all know this will vote yes by a slight margin and the company basically got the cheapest contract they could get away with.

Id rather sell my pto, and pick up rsa and vda any day over this crap. Cant wait for my pay cut on the 190. Im in shock or NC agreed to this. My old jetblue lanyard is looking pretty shiny at the moment😞
190 pay went down???

therapysession
05-17-2018, 07:39 PM
Our profit margins are in line with SW. Enough said.

And.... My post was in response to someone who said our new pay was higher than SW. It's not, and that was the point of the post.

Do you have something actually useful to contribute?

Congrats on the AIP from us at Frontier. Raising the bar for everybody! Side note though....If profit margins were the determining factor then Frontier and Spirit would have gotten Delta+ pay. Just saying, be happy! From a bullet point standpoint (which isn't much) you all did great

atrdriver
05-17-2018, 08:12 PM
Your E190/195 pay rate in this AIP is way more than AA offers. FWIW, captain on a flight I just got off was just comparing this AIP rates to actual American Group 1 rates & Group 2 rates (A320/321) on the CA rates, itís basically on par & so heís pist that APA should have requested more, and that now even JetBlue is caught up/catching up, that AAG pilots should earn more than a LCC pilots.

AA has 20 190s and they're all getting parked? AA's 190 rates aren't reasonable for setting the standard.

This will probably be my only post on the AIP seeing as how I won't be voting on it. I thought the highlights (lowlights?) were pretty bad. Of course Hyperboy likes it..... that's no surprise since he's been cheerleading for a Mesa style major. The bullet points have made me feel better about leaving for greener pastures. The grass is indeed greener on the other side. OE trips held back, PTO hour accrual, rates, profit sharing cliff.....what exactly is market rate in this?

Battered pilot syndrome will save the day for LSC.

Happyflyer
05-17-2018, 08:41 PM
Our profit margins are in line with SW. Enough said.

Not really that's a function of current market, not how to index a fixed cost like pilot pay.
If the company wants to make money at a 50% load capacity then the fact that there selling 85%+ loads right now don't matter even though it helps your margins analogy to SW.

It's like he's saying SW has a lower cost base, and your saying it doesn't matter because stocks are all going up the same percent daily.

Mattio
05-17-2018, 08:45 PM
190 pay went down???

Bullet points said 190 gets 6.8% average pay raise at DOS and 13.3% eventually.

Same rates apply to 195, 190-E2, 195-E2. For those that don't have access to the bullet points and FWIW, they also negotiated C series rates...

citxls
05-17-2018, 09:06 PM
AA has 20 190s and they're all getting parked? AA's 190 rates aren't reasonable for setting the standard.

This will probably be my only post on the AIP seeing as how I won't be voting on it. I thought the highlights (lowlights?) were pretty bad. Of course Hyperboy likes it..... that's no surprise since he's been cheerleading for a Mesa style major. The bullet points have made me feel better about leaving for greener pastures. The grass is indeed greener on the other side. OE trips held back, PTO hour accrual, rates, profit sharing cliff.....what exactly is market rate in this?

Battered pilot syndrome will save the day for LSC.

Youíre a loser. I also bet you werenít senior enough to even hold IOE trips

pilotpayne
05-17-2018, 09:26 PM
AA has 20 190s and they're all getting parked? AA's 190 rates aren't reasonable for setting the standard.

This will probably be my only post on the AIP seeing as how I won't be voting on it. I thought the highlights (lowlights?) were pretty bad. Of course Hyperboy likes it..... that's no surprise since he's been cheerleading for a Mesa style major. The bullet points have made me feel better about leaving for greener pastures. The grass is indeed greener on the other side. OE trips held back, PTO hour accrual, rates, profit sharing cliff.....what exactly is market rate in this?

Battered pilot syndrome will save the day for LSC.


Delta?

Donít worry you can come back and really tell us how much jetblue sucks.

But honestly good luck, great time for hiring.

queue
05-18-2018, 12:22 AM
Hey Q- tell me about the work rules and rsv improvements. Lets compare how much the W2 increase will improve with a No vote...
Ill wait.:)

We know what we got is crap. The MEC an NC failed. Do you suggest we roll over and take it or should we continue to fight?





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-18-2018, 12:32 AM
100% agreed. At some point you have to trust that the NC knew where the limit was and got close.
It may not look great upon a glance, but lets see what it means for day to day/ Yr to Yr QOL. It seems the absolute NO votes are reacting in anger and frustration- That is emotion over intellect.
Lets see it all and then kill it if it needs to die.
For those of you who think B6 owes you for lost wages etc and that the mediator should consider that... Your dreaming. NEVER gonna happen.

That is a defeated, beaten down attitude. You are so myopic in your thinking, or lack of thinking, that you only accept table scraps.

Bozo, you really need to gain some self respect for yourself and for your profession.

People like you just bring us down. You should go back to your regional or whatever unprofessional toilet cleaning organization you came from. No wonder management ****es all over you and you said they're asking for more. You have no idea how disrespected you are by them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying here. They are correct about a great deal of things. This proposal is a complete turd even from the highlights. The legalese will not improve anything. Basically the MEC and NC failed miserably, as I suspected they would.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-18-2018, 12:44 AM
Guess you should fly for SW.... and be as large as SW, and move traffics like SW, and generate revenue like SW, and scale ur economy like SW, and hedge fuel like SW, and recruit military pilots like SW,

Ooh and generate profits like SW.


Your E190/195 pay rate in this AIP is way more than AA offers. FWIW, captain on a flight I just got off was just comparing this AIP rates to actual American Group 1 rates & Group 2 rates (A320/321) on the CA rates, itís basically on par & so heís pist that APA should have requested more, and that now even JetBlue is caught up/catching up, that AAG pilots should earn more than a LCC pilots.

Your understanding of economics of the matter are incorrect. Pay has very little to do with the size of operation. This is a false concept that people like you believe because you don't know any better. The truth of the matter that BJ makes triple the profit compared to AA. That's why analysts come up with numbers such as CASM which are always per unit (aircraft). Overall fleet profit is hardly ever described because it's a simple linear extrapolation of the per-unit revenue and profit. So the false argument saying that we shouldn't expect to pay rates of the major three or even four is absolute bunk. You are just buying into management propaganda that smaller airlines can't pay the same. This substandard expectation seems to be in the DNA of the average BJ pilot, particularly the MEC and NC.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-18-2018, 12:48 AM
Congrats on the AIP from us at Frontier. Raising the bar for everybody! Side note though....If profit margins were the determining factor then Frontier and Spirit would have gotten Delta+ pay. Just saying, be happy! From a bullet point standpoint (which isn't much) you all did great

No we didn't. This was a complete insult to professional pilots. Simply improving doesn't make it acceptable.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

benzoate
05-18-2018, 02:35 AM
Working the system? WTF are you talking about? This is a blatant violation of seniority. So F-ing what if with that seniority they're able to get trips bought off. It happens at every airline. Delta voted no on their last contract the first time in part because of this very issue. Nice to see they don't eat their own like you selfish Fuk's do.

It's not all about bidding trips off. Now the senior FOs will bid more productive trips that would have gone to less senior FOs, or they're upgrade and deny other guys an upgrade who may have wanted it earlier.

This group can be so F-ing short sighted sometimes.

This is standard at other carriers as well. Between 50% and 75% of trips can be withheld for training. Shortsighted, hardly.

benzoate
05-18-2018, 02:45 AM
Totally agree.

Now suppose I'm an FO that wants to bid overnights in my hometown bluecity, but the check airmen bid those, so they were removed from the FO bid! No overnights at home for me.

Or I want to bid Europe trips, but the check airmen like those so they were removed from the bid!

But as you said, other airlines let their FOs bid check airmen trips, it's just the cost of doing business.

This is BS.

You guys need to email the Training committee and get a better understanding of this. Withholding OE trips is perfectly normal. There are much worse things in the AIP to be concerned about.

Take insurance for example. According the bullet points it isn't codified in the agreement. What this means is Jetblue, being Jetblue, will likely add some percentage provision allowing limiting them to how much the deductibles can increase YoY. What won't be in the agreement is what is actually covered. Over the course of this contract cycle your deductible won't change too much but your coverage will continue to decline.

You guys are getting concerned about being bought off your trip when your health benefits are steadily going down the tubes.

hockeypilot44
05-18-2018, 03:40 AM
Jetblue was founded on undercutting the majors in labor costs. I see things aren’t changing. This contract is designed to keep Jetblue better than the regionals, but worse than the majors. Some things never change. With profit sharing, a Delta 321 captain flying the same hours as a Jetblue pilot will gross about $80,000 more per year or as one Jetblue pilot said “just a few bucks.”

Learjet driver
05-18-2018, 04:21 AM
What are the bullet points? They havenít been posted. APCís pay rates for UAL are a year behind. These are the current pay rates and for 2019.


2018 12 year pay (topped out)
CA A320/A321- $272.32
A319- $261.19

FO A321/A321- $186.00
A319- $178.40

2019
CA A320/321- $283.22
A319- $271.64

FO A320/A321- $193.44
A319- $185.54

Hopefully your AIP is within a few bucks of these. Iím pulling for all of you.

LJ

Gearswinger
05-18-2018, 04:30 AM
What are the bullet points? They havenít been posted.

They are hidden in a link on the first page. I think it's the third post or so.

hyperboy
05-18-2018, 04:39 AM
[QUOTE=Bluedriver;2596538]Our profit margins are in line with SW. Enough said.

And.... My post was in response to someone who said our new pay was higher than SW. It's not, and that was the point of the post.

Do you have something actually useful to contribute?[/QUOT

We know you are contributing by giving ďhandiesĒ out on the line. You are ruining the profession.

hyperboy
05-18-2018, 04:47 AM
That is a defeated, beaten down attitude. You are so myopic in your thinking, or lack of thinking, that you only accept table scraps.

Bozo, you really need to gain some self respect for yourself and for your profession.

People like you just bring us down. You should go back to your regional or whatever unprofessional toilet cleaning organization you came from. No wonder management ****es all over you and you said they're asking for more. You have no idea how disrespected you are by them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying here. They are correct about a great deal of things. This proposal is a complete turd even from the highlights. The legalese will not improve anything. Basically the MEC and NC failed miserably, as I suspected they would.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
And Q you need the get off that non member list and pay your dues...

pilotpayne
05-18-2018, 05:06 AM
Jetblue was founded on undercutting the majors in labor costs. I see things arenít changing. This contract is designed to keep Jetblue better than the regionals, but worse than the majors. Some things never change. With profit sharing, a Delta 321 captain flying the same hours as a Jetblue pilot will gross about $80,000 more per year or as one Jetblue pilot said ďjust a few bucks.Ē

Thanks Mr Delta.

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 05:07 AM
not to move away from the name calling, but I have a few questions (and things I hope is in the final language)

-Out of base pickup (with some sort of time limit to protect line holders in that specific base)

-more details on medical/Dental

-clarity on the VPTO/ PTO changeover

-A point most folks missed, was that we are now having "industry standard augmented crew rules" Does that mean we are going to do transcon turns w/ 3 pilots (we could). Or is that a carve out for the 321LR or bigger. **and for those who know, is industry standard a first class (mint) seat?**

- allow all pilots to go to all destinations (doing away with the redline)

-Crew meals

-I doubt its in there, but a mechanism to fly PS in mint for flights over x number of hours

-better wording on the commuter policy (IE if you follow it, you can't get in trouble) no more of this "guide" BS. Perhaps a mechanism if you miss 1 flight, you can be PSed

-Ability to RSV jumpseat (as on any other major)

-figure out what "additional days off and industry leading pairing construction" means

-See if RSA/VDA is dead. Figure out the companies required notice for turning on/off the 150% FLICA window.

As I write this list, It goes to show, that if we have a 300 page TA, there is still a lot we don't know, and we will all have lots of reading to do.


Anyone have anything else to add? Thoughts?

N311JB
05-18-2018, 05:07 AM
Que may be off his rocker but I agree with him on this stuff

Seeking, I was wondering a bunch of that too. Relief pilot language.

Question, when the road shows come around will we get a shot at mock bid with these rules in place? very curious how people will bid. bid the 10hr 3days that would be 15hrs now Or will those redeyes be jammed into all other pairings. Reserve being better, I'd like to get an idea how things will play out in real life. Or will they even be able to run a proper bid with staffing the way it is?

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 05:07 AM
We know what we got is crap. The MEC an NC failed. Do you suggest we roll over and take it or should we continue to fight?





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I suggest you educate yourself about the work rules etc and make an informed decision based on the whole document. You're always jabbering- try some reading- when the final language is complete; Read, discuss, question, and then vote.
For a guy who has an opinion on everything from needles to anchors, Id expect you to be better informed. Im not even a hard yes yet.

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 05:16 AM
Que may be off his rocker but I agree with him on this stuff

Seeking, I was wondering a bunch of that too. Relief pilot language.

Question, when the road shows come around will we get a shot at mock bid with these rules in place? very curious how people will bid. bid the 10hr 3days that would be 15hrs now Or will those redeyes be jammed into all other pairings. Reserve being better, I'd like to get an idea how things will play out in real life. Or will they even be able to run a proper bid with staffing the way it is?

Staffing will have to change. Especially with the vacation changes, max unstacking limits, limited duty day etc........

Will be very interesting how the pairing construction will change. I agree with you, that the 10 (now 15) hour 3 days will be constructed differently and likely built into other pairings.

frascaflyer
05-18-2018, 05:24 AM
-A point most folks missed, was that we are now having "industry standard augmented crew rules" Does that mean we are going to do transcon turns w/ 3 pilots (we could). Or is that a carve out for the 321LR or bigger. **and for those who know, is industry standard a first class (mint) seat?**


Can't speak to the rest, but as for this, per 117 you can only augment if you have a Class 1, 2, or 3 rest facility. Class 3 is the *least* restrictive, and it is defined as follows:

c. Class 3 Rest Facility. Means a seat in an aircraft cabin or flight deck that reclines at least 40 degrees and provides leg and foot support (ß 117.3).

So economy seats wouldn't qualify per FAR, and neither would regular domestic first class seats. The only seats on your aircraft that would qualify as Class 3 would be your mint seats.

Just FYI.

capt707
05-18-2018, 05:24 AM
-Out of base pickup (with some sort of time limit to protect line holders in that specific base)

Iíve seen that at previous airline, donít want to see this again. We would have people drop their entire schedule in their base, letís say JFK, and pick up a bunch if trips where they lived, letís say MCO.

Knock yourself out with RSA/VDA if you want to do out of base flying.

nuball5
05-18-2018, 05:33 AM
not to move away from the name calling, but I have a few questions (and things I hope is in the final language)

-Out of base pickup (with some sort of time limit to protect line holders in that specific base)

-more details on medical/Dental

-clarity on the VPTO/ PTO changeover

-A point most folks missed, was that we are now having "industry standard augmented crew rules" Does that mean we are going to do transcon turns w/ 3 pilots (we could). Or is that a carve out for the 321LR or bigger. **and for those who know, is industry standard a first class (mint) seat?**

- allow all pilots to go to all destinations (doing away with the redline)

-Crew meals

-I doubt its in there, but a mechanism to fly PS in mint for flights over x number of hours

-better wording on the commuter policy (IE if you follow it, you can't get in trouble) no more of this "guide" BS. Perhaps a mechanism if you miss 1 flight, you can be PSed

-Ability to RSV jumpseat (as on any other major)

-figure out what "additional days off and industry leading pairing construction" means

-See if RSA/VDA is dead. Figure out the companies required notice for turning on/off the 150% FLICA window.

As I write this list, It goes to show, that if we have a 300 page TA, there is still a lot we don't know, and we will all have lots of reading to do.


Anyone have anything else to add? Thoughts?

I might have an answer to one of your questions. According to someone that listened to the P2P call last night...we'll get 72 hours of PTO/VPTO accrual (6/month). Either sell it at straight pay or go on vacation. The rest is your sick bank. So I'll personally get 142 hours of PTO/year. I'll have 70 hours in my sick bank.

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 05:36 AM
Can't speak to the rest, but as for this, per 117 you can only augment if you have a Class 1, 2, or 3 rest facility. Class 3 is the *least* restrictive, and it is defined as follows:

c. Class 3 Rest Facility. Means a seat in an aircraft cabin or flight deck that reclines at least 40 degrees and provides leg and foot support (ß 117.3).

So economy seats wouldn't qualify per FAR, and neither would regular domestic first class seats. The only seats on your aircraft that would qualify as Class 3 would be your mint seats.

Just FYI.



Great info. Thanks for looking it up.

So mint seats it is!

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 05:44 AM
I’ve seen that at previous airline, don’t want to see this again. We would have people drop their entire schedule in their base, let’s say JFK, and pick up a bunch if trips where they lived, let’s say MCO.

Knock yourself out with RSA/VDA if you want to do out of base flying.

so you are against? Even with a buffer for out of base folks to pickup?

Bluedriver
05-18-2018, 05:57 AM
Congrats on the AIP from us at Frontier. Raising the bar for everybody! Side note though....If profit margins were the determining factor then Frontier and Spirit would have gotten Delta+ pay. Just saying, be happy! From a bullet point standpoint (which isn't much) you all did great

Sorry bud, that's a ULCC myth.

In 2017 JB made $29 per passenger.

Spirit made $17 per passenger, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Doubt very much that Frontier nearly doubles Spirits profits....

Both Spirit and JB run similar load factors.

Baba Yaga
05-18-2018, 06:01 AM
so you are against? Even with a buffer for out of base folks to pickup?

Yes..........

Bluedriver
05-18-2018, 06:02 AM
[QUOTE=Bluedriver;2596538]Our profit margins are in line with SW. Enough said.

And.... My post was in response to someone who said our new pay was higher than SW. It's not, and that was the point of the post.

Do you have something actually useful to contribute?[/QUOT

We know you are contributing by giving ďhandiesĒ out on the line. You are ruining the profession.

Look, the future junior chief pilot back-stabber is here. Surprised you have time to post your idiocy and still climax to this AIP and a pic of Jett M. multiple times.

punchdrunk
05-18-2018, 06:06 AM
Sorry bud, that's a ULCC myth.

In 2017 JB made $29 per passenger.

Spirit made $17 per passenger, according to the Wall Street Journal.

Doubt very much that Frontier nearly doubles Spirits profits....

Both Spirit and JB run similar load factors.

I might be wrong and if I am I stand corrected, but those figures donít include ancillaries, which make up 60% of the total take per pax. This is similar to looking at the average price per ticket on a specific route.
Good luck to you guys.

CFI2766
05-18-2018, 06:42 AM
so you are against? Even with a buffer for out of base folks to pickup?

Iíve seen this at another airline too. The reason he is skeptical is because without proper restrictions those in other bases can drop their trips and then pick up in another base. HOWEVER that wouldnít even be possible here as we have no language requiring adequate staffing. Also as long as those in their own base have first dibs at open time, there should be no reason to not allow this QOL improvement.

grkmec
05-18-2018, 07:15 AM
Seems like a big disparity in payrates between the E2 and C-series. Does this seal the fate of the fate of C-series... did management just give high payrates of the C-series because they already know they are picking the E2 ?

7Thirty7s4Life
05-18-2018, 07:23 AM
So why is your union presenting a contract with lower rates and benefits than legacy pay? They do know its NOT OK to be 7 years behind industry pay forever right?

jetpilot285
05-18-2018, 07:51 AM
Does anyone know whether trip pick up on RSV days off will count towards guarantee or in addition to guarantee with the new AIP?
Thanks

RiddleEagle18
05-18-2018, 08:13 AM
Does anyone know whether trip pick up on RSV days off will count towards guarantee or in addition to guarantee with the new AIP?

Thanks



Have to wait for the full language. Bullet points barely scratch the surface. Final language could turn this vote either way for me. Iím hearing the full language in the scheduling section is very good but Iím not making any decisions until I read the entire thing multiple times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

NightOwl
05-18-2018, 08:17 AM
Have to wait for the full language. Bullet points barely scratch the surface. Final language could turn this vote either way for me. Iím hearing the full language in the scheduling section is very good but Iím not making any decisions until I read the entire thing multiple times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed , the devil is in the details

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 08:18 AM
That is a defeated, beaten down attitude. You are so myopic in your thinking, or lack of thinking, that you only accept table scraps.

Bozo, you really need to gain some self respect for yourself and for your profession.

People like you just bring us down. You should go back to your regional or whatever unprofessional toilet cleaning organization you came from. No wonder management ****es all over you and you said they're asking for more. You have no idea how disrespected you are by them.

Maybe you should actually read what people are saying here. They are correct about a great deal of things. This proposal is a complete turd even from the highlights. The legalese will not improve anything. Basically the MEC and NC failed miserably, as I suspected they would.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

This was truly entertaining. I can feel the anger and emotion in your text. Why not take a look at what the contract is and then opine until your heart's content.
I have not even decided myself, but I am not letting anger and emotion derail my intellect like you Q. Im surprised by your attitude. All through this negotiation process, you seemed measured and thoughtful; you have become an emotional wreck and I hope you dont let this process unhinge you.
Ill probably stay at B6, but if you're upset, perhaps youll move on.
Good luck and keep those emotions tempered--for your sake Q.
Bz

nuball5
05-18-2018, 08:21 AM
Have to wait for the full language. Bullet points barely scratch the surface. Final language could turn this vote either way for me. Iím hearing the full language in the scheduling section is very good but Iím not making any decisions until I read the entire thing multiple times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed. Also haven't heard much about healthcare other than that it's "improved".

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 08:22 AM
Que may be off his rocker but I agree with him on this stuff

Seeking, I was wondering a bunch of that too. Relief pilot language.

Question, when the road shows come around will we get a shot at mock bid with these rules in place? very curious how people will bid. bid the 10hr 3days that would be 15hrs now Or will those redeyes be jammed into all other pairings. Reserve being better, I'd like to get an idea how things will play out in real life. Or will they even be able to run a proper bid with staffing the way it is?
What do you agree with? Have you both been to roadshows that noone else knew about. 311- you havent a clue about the details or this contract in its entirety.
Even in the above post, youre asking questions- Go to a roadshow and then let the anger sharks swim if you hate it. ;)

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 08:25 AM
Have to wait for the full language. Bullet points barely scratch the surface. Final language could turn this vote either way for me. Iím hearing the full language in the scheduling section is very good but Iím not making any decisions until I read the entire thing multiple times.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Can you infuse your sensible frame of mind in some of the already NO votes.
Undecided is the smartest position at this point. Well stated.

Softpayman
05-18-2018, 08:28 AM
Seems like a big disparity in payrates between the E2 and C-series. Does this seal the fate of the fate of C-series... did management just give high payrates of the C-series because they already know they are picking the E2 ?

Hard to say....

I don't know what exactly defines a pay rate for a plane. To some degree # of seats, to some degree the plane's capability. There are some wide bodies that have less seats than large narrow bodies (A321s and 757s/739s) yet pay more, leading me to think the mission matters as well.

Given that, the C Series should pay more than the Embraer, as it's a more capable aircraft. It's mission is that of the Airbus, it's seating config is that of the Embraer roughly. For me it should pay as close to the Airbus as possible. "Jetblue announces it's replacing all A320 flying with CS300 flying." Not impossible.

Saabs
05-18-2018, 08:41 AM
So why is your union presenting a contract with lower rates and benefits than legacy pay? They do know its NOT OK to be 7 years behind industry pay forever right?

Haha either trolling or you are clueless. Touchť either way sir.

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 08:58 AM
Haha either trolling or you are clueless. Touchť either way sir.

Or he is 100% correct.

Saabs
05-18-2018, 09:25 AM
Or he is 100% correct.

Keep expecting legacy rates and see what happens. You then, can be correct too. Not saying itís right but youíre not gonna get them.

nuball5
05-18-2018, 09:54 AM
Keep expecting legacy rates and see what happens. You then, can be correct too. Not saying itís right but youíre not gonna get them.

They could've added another $5-$10 on the payrates to be exactly on par with the Legacies, but it would've been at the expense of Scope and other work rule provisions that no one outside the MEC even knows about yet.

todd1200
05-18-2018, 10:06 AM
They could've added another $5-$10 on the payrates to be exactly on par with the Legacies, but it would've been at the expense of Scope and other work rule provisions that no one outside the MEC even knows about yet.

Exactly, and Iíd imagine most mainline pilots would give up that $5-$10 to get back the scope sales of previous contracts.

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 10:13 AM
Keep expecting legacy rates and see what happens. You then, can be correct too. Not saying itís right but youíre not gonna get them.

SWA has had BETTER than legacy rates many many times. They are an "LCC" (whatever that means). Is there an actual good reason why we shouldnt get legacy rates considering our margins are higher than yours at AA?

Saabs
05-18-2018, 10:29 AM
SWA has had BETTER than legacy rates many many times. They are an "LCC" (whatever that means). Is there an actual good reason why we shouldnt get legacy rates considering our margins are higher than yours at AA?

Ok. Change what I said to SWA/Legacy and repeat

The701Express
05-18-2018, 10:36 AM
I havenít decided how to vote yet, especially because many of my high priority sections are language intensive and I will wait to see the final language and ask the negotiating committee and ALPA representatives questions on the subjects before making a decision. With that said, hereís some thoughts on the AIP bullet points.

Scope:
Iíll have to see the final language, but if weíre truly able to prevent a regional airline from ever setting foot here, then thatís huge. Iím interested to see how extensive the limitations to code sharing and joint ventures. Is it a Southwest style system where once a certain number of average daily passengers is reached a ďcircuit breakerĒ pops and sets up a review of the code share and whether the company starts flying it with its own metal. Is there a Delta style protection for seat miles flown in a joint venture and a corresponding penalty if the limit is exceeded?
I wish c91 flying went away completely, but Iíll wait to see what the restrictions are. Itís at least a step in the right direction.
The bullet points look good. We have the potential to lead much of the industry in scope and job protections, thatís worth a lot. Still, Iíll have to see the final language and ask plenty of questions.

Compensation:
The airbus rates are pretty much right there with Alaska and SWA. We beat the Alaska slope and are ahead of Hawaiian, but below the big three. The industry screwed us on the 190 rates that were attainable. While I wish they were higher, I donít know what else was achievable, especially without sacrificing other sections that affect quality of life. $207 isnít great for the 190, but it raises the bar and leads the industry.
United is reportedly looking at the 190/195E2 and CSeries and there are some rumors about American looking at the CSeries as well. If we get the CSeries, those deliveries probably wonít happen for several years, well into the life of this contract. We will pattern bargain off of those rates the next cycle. With regards to the low CS100 rates, if we get the CSeries, the CS300 is likely to be the majority of the fleet. Both Swiss and Air Baltic have more CS300s on order than CS100s. In the case of Air Baltic, they converted a bunch of CS100 orders into CS300s shortly after taking delivery of the aircraft.

Iím not thrilled with the 2% annual raise and I wish there was a 321 override. International override is expanded to cover actual international flying, not just that below the red line of death and increases during the contract to be comparable with the legacies.
Iím pleasantly surprised to see we retained the $13/hour Night Override. Thatís industry leading and blows the closest comparison, Southwestís 3% override, out of the water. With the amount of red eye flying JetBlue does, that makes up for some of the disparity in pay rates.
Keeping profit sharing as is sucks, but I am glad we appear to have spent more negotiating capital in other, more significant places than just one paycheck a year. Delta is the gold standard, but an outlier in the industry. American pilots were given profit sharing outside of section 6 negotiations by management to help maintain labor peace. Weíre definitely in the middle of the road in this regard. At least it canít get worse anymore.

I like how the vacation/PTO system is looking so far. Our accrual is much improved, with 6 hours of PTO per month (72/year) and the rest vacation. Total hours accrued per year leads most of the industry at times and lags some of the time as we leap frog each other depending on the longevity bucket. The flexibility of having PTO is great to have and is not common at other airlines. So far, it looks like another great boost to our ability to improve our quality of life.

Industry standard vacation distribution and allocation appear to be codified and will drive a significant increase in staffing. I know an increase of 5-10% has been thrown around on here and other forums. Once again, Iím excited to see how the final language looks and how it will drive staffing needs. Vacation bidding in rounds will be another huge boost to quality of life.

Any changes to health, life, dental, and any other type of insurance coverage will need to be closely reviewed once we get the final language.

15% direct contribution is a good start. Iím glad we got rid of the 5% retirement contribution premised on making a profit and board of director approval. Stepping up to 16% could happen sooner, but Iím glad to see it happen eventually. Southwest and Alaska donít have that much DC retirement.
The VEBA retirement health account is a nice added benefit to supplement our 401k and help shelter more compensation from taxes.

Work Rules:

Iím very excited to see what industry leading control over pairing construction will look like. That has the potential to make our trips much more commutable, productive, enjoyable, whatever we deem important to the pilot group. This could be another huge boost to our quality of life here.
Average Daily Guarantee will help force an increase in schedule productivity as well and should help further improve quality of life.

I wish the pay rates were higher, but Iím not going to dump all over them until I see what our work rules look like in full. Thereís potential here to make those rates do a lot if the work rules are truly as good as the bullet points make them appear so far.

I would have appreciated a system that didnít give the company control of when to incentivize open time. Reading the language there and learning what will trigger that even will be interesting.
The improvement to reserve rules is one of the biggest gains in the AIP. Iím a fan of dedicated long call and short call reserve. Having a 14 hour long call is industry leading. It beats Delta and American. No airport standby beats United. Final language will make for a good read.

I wish we could have kept OE trips in the bid packet. I certainly benefit indirectly from senior FOs taking those trips and I realize itís a great benefit for them. That being said, itís a small percentage of pilots affected. This is also more important for an airline like Delta, which has almost a dozen different fleet types and much more OE training than JetBlue, with two fleet types. That being said, I would like to know what was gained for giving this up. I certainly hope it was for the benefit of the group as a whole.

The signing bonus is just that, a bonus. We donít have a current CBA with an amendable date and received pay raises from the PEA during the beginning of negotiations. I would like to know how we got to $50 million amount and how that will relate to a timeline for implementation of certain sections of the CBA.
Unfortunately, nonmembers will receive a bonus and thereís not much we can do about that. Itís just another time where their selfishness hurts the pilot group collectively. Let it hurt and never forget their names. Fortunately, they are on the outside and have no say in this vote. When we ratify a CBA, they will be even further castigated when they donít get to realize the full benefits of ALPA membership and the pride we all get to share in for a battle hard fought together.

Overall:

There are parts of this AIP that are better than I expected and others are not. My highest priority sections are heavily dependent on strong language, so Iím withholding my judgment until I see that. However, for the sake of discussion, based on what I see here and the trust Iíve had in our negotiating committee for the past three years, I am optimistic. This appears to be an AIP that should lead to a TA with solid protections for our jobs, strong work rules, the possibility of humane and affordable insurance, and while not industry leading, fair monetary compensation. I will scrutinize the final language if a TA is presented to the group to ensure it lives up to the expectations I have based upon these bullet points and am prepared to vote Yes or No in accordance with the package as a whole.

These AIP bullet points are just the surface of what will surely be a behemoth of a legal document. We owe it to the hard work of our negotiating committee, MEC, SPSC, investor relations committee, scheduling committee, and countless other union volunteers, to educate and inform ourselves of it as thoroughly as possible before making a final decision.

pilotpayne
05-18-2018, 10:44 AM
I havenít decided how to vote yet, especially because many of my high priority sections are language intensive and I will wait to see the final language and ask the negotiating committee and ALPA representatives questions on the subjects before making a decision. With that said, hereís some thoughts on the AIP bullet points.

Scope:
Iíll have to see the final language, but if weíre truly able to prevent a regional airline from ever setting foot here, then thatís huge. Iím interested to see how extensive the limitations to code sharing and joint ventures. Is it a Southwest style system where once a certain number of average daily passengers is reached a ďcircuit breakerĒ pops and sets up a review of the code share and whether the company starts flying it with its own metal. Is there a Delta style protection for seat miles flown in a joint venture and a corresponding penalty if the limit is exceeded?
I wish c91 flying went away completely, but Iíll wait to see what the restrictions are. Itís at least a step in the right direction.
The bullet points look good. We have the potential to lead much of the industry in scope and job protections, thatís worth a lot. Still, Iíll have to see the final language and ask plenty of questions.

Compensation:
The airbus rates are pretty much right there with Alaska and SWA. We beat the Alaska slope and are ahead of Hawaiian, but below the big three. The industry screwed us on the 190 rates that were attainable. While I wish they were higher, I donít know what else was achievable, especially without sacrificing other sections that affect quality of life. $207 isnít great for the 190, but it raises the bar and leads the industry.
United is reportedly looking at the 190/195E2 and CSeries and there are some rumors about American looking at the CSeries as well. If we get the CSeries, those deliveries probably wonít happen for several years, well into the life of this contract. We will pattern bargain off of those rates the next cycle. With regards to the low CS100 rates, if we get the CSeries, the CS300 is likely to be the majority of the fleet. Both Swiss and Air Baltic have more CS300s on order than CS100s. In the case of Air Baltic, they converted a bunch of CS100 orders into CS300s shortly after taking delivery of the aircraft.

Iím not thrilled with the 2% annual raise and I wish there was a 321 override. International override is expanded to cover actual international flying, not just that below the red line of death and increases during the contract to be comparable with the legacies.
Iím pleasantly surprised to see we retained the $13/hour Night Override. Thatís industry leading and blows the closest comparison, Southwestís 3% override, out of the water. With the amount of red eye flying JetBlue does, that makes up for some of the disparity in pay rates.
Keeping profit sharing as is sucks, but I am glad we appear to have spent more negotiating capital in other, more significant places than just one paycheck a year. Delta is the gold standard, but an outlier in the industry. American pilots were given profit sharing outside of section 6 negotiations by management to help maintain labor peace. Weíre definitely in the middle of the road in this regard. At least it canít get worse anymore.

I like how the vacation/PTO system is looking so far. Our accrual is much improved, with 6 hours of PTO per month (72/year) and the rest vacation. Total hours accrued per year leads most of the industry at times and lags some of the time as we leap frog each other depending on the longevity bucket. The flexibility of having PTO is great to have and is not common at other airlines. So far, it looks like another great boost to our ability to improve our quality of life.

Industry standard vacation distribution and allocation appear to be codified and will drive a significant increase in staffing. I know an increase of 5-10% has been thrown around on here and other forums. Once again, Iím excited to see how the final language looks and how it will drive staffing needs. Vacation bidding in rounds will be another huge boost to quality of life.

Any changes to health, life, dental, and any other type of insurance coverage will need to be closely reviewed once we get the final language.

15% direct contribution is a good start. Iím glad we got rid of the 5% retirement contribution premised on making a profit and board of director approval. Stepping up to 16% could happen sooner, but Iím glad to see it happen eventually. Southwest and Alaska donít have that much DC retirement.
The VEBA retirement health account is a nice added benefit to supplement our 401k and help shelter more compensation from taxes.

Work Rules:

Iím very excited to see what industry leading control over pairing construction will look like. That has the potential to make our trips much more commutable, productive, enjoyable, whatever we deem important to the pilot group. This could be another huge boost to our quality of life here.
Average Daily Guarantee will help force an increase in schedule productivity as well and should help further improve quality of life.

I wish the pay rates were higher, but Iím not going to dump all over them until I see what our work rules look like in full. Thereís potential here to make those rates do a lot if the work rules are truly as good as the bullet points make them appear so far.

I would have appreciated a system that didnít give the company control of when to incentivize open time. Reading the language there and learning what will trigger that even will be interesting.
The improvement to reserve rules is one of the biggest gains in the AIP. Iím a fan of dedicated long call and short call reserve. Having a 14 hour long call is industry leading. It beats Delta and American. No airport standby beats United. Final language will make for a good read.

I wish we could have kept OE trips in the bid packet. I certainly benefit indirectly from senior FOs taking those trips and I realize itís a great benefit for them. That being said, itís a small percentage of pilots affected. This is also more important for an airline like Delta, which has almost a dozen different fleet types and much more OE training than JetBlue, with two fleet types. That being said, I would like to know what was gained for giving this up. I certainly hope it was for the benefit of the group as a whole.

The signing bonus is just that, a bonus. We donít have a current CBA with an amendable date and received pay raises from the PEA during the beginning of negotiations. I would like to know how we got to $50 million amount and how that will relate to a timeline for implementation of certain sections of the CBA.
Unfortunately, nonmembers will receive a bonus and thereís not much we can do about that. Itís just another time where their selfishness hurts the pilot group collectively. Let it hurt and never forget their names. Fortunately, they are on the outside and have no say in this vote. When we ratify a CBA, they will be even further castigated when they donít get to realize the full benefits of ALPA membership and the pride we all get to share in for a battle hard fought together.

Overall:

There are parts of this AIP that are better than I expected and others are not. My highest priority sections are heavily dependent on strong language, so Iím withholding my judgment until I see that. However, for the sake of discussion, based on what I see here and the trust Iíve had in our negotiating committee for the past three years, I am optimistic. This appears to be an AIP that should lead to a TA with solid protections for our jobs, strong work rules, the possibility of humane and affordable insurance, and while not industry leading, fair monetary compensation. I will scrutinize the final language if a TA is presented to the group to ensure it lives up to the expectations I have based upon these bullet points and am prepared to vote Yes or No in accordance with the package as a whole.

These AIP bullet points are just the surface of what will surely be a behemoth of a legal document. We owe it to the hard work of our negotiating committee, MEC, SPSC, investor relations committee, scheduling committee, and countless other union volunteers, to educate and inform ourselves of it as thoroughly as possible before making a final decision.

man agree or disagree with you, you are my new hero of APC (you are dead to me bluedriver....I kid I kid) itís nice to see a well thought out post. From what I understand I picked a great time to stop reading BP. Like you Iím waiting to read this thing. I am not super stoked about the PS but when I think about the survey and my answers were scope, work rules and insurance, I guess I can blame myself. (Yes que Iím a weak pilot).

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 10:47 AM
Ok. Change what I said to SWA/Legacy and repeat

Again, why? Actual reason please.

citxls
05-18-2018, 10:50 AM
Jetblue was founded on undercutting the majors in labor costs. I see things arenít changing. This contract is designed to keep Jetblue better than the regionals, but worse than the majors. Some things never change. With profit sharing, a Delta 321 captain flying the same hours as a Jetblue pilot will gross about $80,000 more per year or as one Jetblue pilot said ďjust a few bucks.Ē

Good intel Captain Clueless. Profit sharing is guaranteed every year then? Show math please.

todd1200
05-18-2018, 10:50 AM
I havenít decided how to vote yet, especially because many of my high priority sections are language intensive and I will wait to see the final language and ask the negotiating committee and ALPA representatives questions on the subjects before making a decision. With that said, hereís some thoughts on the AIP bullet points.

Scope:
Iíll have to see the final language, but if weíre truly able to prevent a regional airline from ever setting foot here, then thatís huge. Iím interested to see how extensive the limitations to code sharing and joint ventures. Is it a Southwest style system where once a certain number of average daily passengers is reached a ďcircuit breakerĒ pops and sets up a review of the code share and whether the company starts flying it with its own metal. Is there a Delta style protection for seat miles flown in a joint venture and a corresponding penalty if the limit is exceeded?
I wish c91 flying went away completely, but Iíll wait to see what the restrictions are. Itís at least a step in the right direction.
The bullet points look good. We have the potential to lead much of the industry in scope and job protections, thatís worth a lot. Still, Iíll have to see the final language and ask plenty of questions.

Compensation:
The airbus rates are pretty much right there with Alaska and SWA. We beat the Alaska slope and are ahead of Hawaiian, but below the big three. The industry screwed us on the 190 rates that were attainable. While I wish they were higher, I donít know what else was achievable, especially without sacrificing other sections that affect quality of life. $207 isnít great for the 190, but it raises the bar and leads the industry.
United is reportedly looking at the 190/195E2 and CSeries and there are some rumors about American looking at the CSeries as well. If we get the CSeries, those deliveries probably wonít happen for several years, well into the life of this contract. We will pattern bargain off of those rates the next cycle. With regards to the low CS100 rates, if we get the CSeries, the CS300 is likely to be the majority of the fleet. Both Swiss and Air Baltic have more CS300s on order than CS100s. In the case of Air Baltic, they converted a bunch of CS100 orders into CS300s shortly after taking delivery of the aircraft.

Iím not thrilled with the 2% annual raise and I wish there was a 321 override. International override is expanded to cover actual international flying, not just that below the red line of death and increases during the contract to be comparable with the legacies.
Iím pleasantly surprised to see we retained the $13/hour Night Override. Thatís industry leading and blows the closest comparison, Southwestís 3% override, out of the water. With the amount of red eye flying JetBlue does, that makes up for some of the disparity in pay rates.
Keeping profit sharing as is sucks, but I am glad we appear to have spent more negotiating capital in other, more significant places than just one paycheck a year. Delta is the gold standard, but an outlier in the industry. American pilots were given profit sharing outside of section 6 negotiations by management to help maintain labor peace. Weíre definitely in the middle of the road in this regard. At least it canít get worse anymore.

I like how the vacation/PTO system is looking so far. Our accrual is much improved, with 6 hours of PTO per month (72/year) and the rest vacation. Total hours accrued per year leads most of the industry at times and lags some of the time as we leap frog each other depending on the longevity bucket. The flexibility of having PTO is great to have and is not common at other airlines. So far, it looks like another great boost to our ability to improve our quality of life.

Industry standard vacation distribution and allocation appear to be codified and will drive a significant increase in staffing. I know an increase of 5-10% has been thrown around on here and other forums. Once again, Iím excited to see how the final language looks and how it will drive staffing needs. Vacation bidding in rounds will be another huge boost to quality of life.

Any changes to health, life, dental, and any other type of insurance coverage will need to be closely reviewed once we get the final language.

15% direct contribution is a good start. Iím glad we got rid of the 5% retirement contribution premised on making a profit and board of director approval. Stepping up to 16% could happen sooner, but Iím glad to see it happen eventually. Southwest and Alaska donít have that much DC retirement.
The VEBA retirement health account is a nice added benefit to supplement our 401k and help shelter more compensation from taxes.

Work Rules:

Iím very excited to see what industry leading control over pairing construction will look like. That has the potential to make our trips much more commutable, productive, enjoyable, whatever we deem important to the pilot group. This could be another huge boost to our quality of life here.
Average Daily Guarantee will help force an increase in schedule productivity as well and should help further improve quality of life.

I wish the pay rates were higher, but Iím not going to dump all over them until I see what our work rules look like in full. Thereís potential here to make those rates do a lot if the work rules are truly as good as the bullet points make them appear so far.

I would have appreciated a system that didnít give the company control of when to incentivize open time. Reading the language there and learning what will trigger that even will be interesting.
The improvement to reserve rules is one of the biggest gains in the AIP. Iím a fan of dedicated long call and short call reserve. Having a 14 hour long call is industry leading. It beats Delta and American. No airport standby beats United. Final language will make for a good read.

I wish we could have kept OE trips in the bid packet. I certainly benefit indirectly from senior FOs taking those trips and I realize itís a great benefit for them. That being said, itís a small percentage of pilots affected. This is also more important for an airline like Delta, which has almost a dozen different fleet types and much more OE training than JetBlue, with two fleet types. That being said, I would like to know what was gained for giving this up. I certainly hope it was for the benefit of the group as a whole.

The signing bonus is just that, a bonus. We donít have a current CBA with an amendable date and received pay raises from the PEA during the beginning of negotiations. I would like to know how we got to $50 million amount and how that will relate to a timeline for implementation of certain sections of the CBA.
Unfortunately, nonmembers will receive a bonus and thereís not much we can do about that. Itís just another time where their selfishness hurts the pilot group collectively. Let it hurt and never forget their names. Fortunately, they are on the outside and have no say in this vote. When we ratify a CBA, they will be even further castigated when they donít get to realize the full benefits of ALPA membership and the pride we all get to share in for a battle hard fought together.

Overall:

There are parts of this AIP that are better than I expected and others are not. My highest priority sections are heavily dependent on strong language, so Iím withholding my judgment until I see that. However, for the sake of discussion, based on what I see here and the trust Iíve had in our negotiating committee for the past three years, I am optimistic. This appears to be an AIP that should lead to a TA with solid protections for our jobs, strong work rules, the possibility of humane and affordable insurance, and while not industry leading, fair monetary compensation. I will scrutinize the final language if a TA is presented to the group to ensure it lives up to the expectations I have based upon these bullet points and am prepared to vote Yes or No in accordance with the package as a whole.

These AIP bullet points are just the surface of what will surely be a behemoth of a legal document. We owe it to the hard work of our negotiating committee, MEC, SPSC, investor relations committee, scheduling committee, and countless other union volunteers, to educate and inform ourselves of it as thoroughly as possible before making a final decision.

Very well said.

todd1200
05-18-2018, 10:52 AM
Good intel Captain Clueless. Profit sharing is guaranteed every year then? Show math please.

FWIW, I recently rode on the j/s of the former DL NC and he said there’s no way they could’ve got their current profit-sharing in today’s environment—it was only because of the uncertainty at the time that DL mgmt agreed to give up such a big slice of the pie.

RjsSuck
05-18-2018, 11:14 AM
FWIW, I recently rode on the j/s of the former DL NC and he said thereís no way they couldíve got their current profit-sharing in todayís environmentóit was only because of the uncertainty at the time that DL mgmt agreed to give up such a big slice of the pie.

Well now it is industry (top) standard. SWA and UAL close. So now JB should also have this.

Softpayman
05-18-2018, 11:15 AM
I havenít decided how to vote yet, especially because many of my high priority sections are language intensive and I will wait to see the final language and ask the negotiating committee and ALPA representatives questions on the subjects before making a decision. With that said, hereís some thoughts on the AIP bullet points.



Good analysis so far. Thanks.

Gordie H
05-18-2018, 11:17 AM
Good write up 701 Express, thanks for taking the time....

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 11:19 AM
Again, why? Actual reason please.

Dude. You need to chill.

You are a no vote. No matter what. Got it, and I wonít convince you differently.

Last night you called Jetblue pilots ďwannabe scabs.Ē As someone who walked a picket line, I was really offended.

Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever considered that you would be happier at a legacy carrier? Seriously, that might make you and your family happier. Easier commute? More money? Bigger airplanes?

Do whatís best for you and your family. Always. But man, with the amount of anger you spend on an anonymous message board, maybe you need a change?

Good luck no matter what, honestly. I hope you find what you are looking for.

hockeypilot44
05-18-2018, 11:29 AM
FWIW, I recently rode on the j/s of the former DL NC and he said thereís no way they couldíve got their current profit-sharing in todayís environmentóit was only because of the uncertainty at the time that DL mgmt agreed to give up such a big slice of the pie.

We can barely keep the profit sharing we have. Profit sharing was negotiated when we gave $1 billion per year in bankruptcy concessions and we werenít even sure if the company was going to make it. We then gave up some profit sharing in 2011 because we were short-sided and stupid. We voted down a TA due to sick leave, witholding OE, and another profit sharinf concession. All 3 sections were improved after we voted down the TA.

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 11:41 AM
Dude. You need to chill.

You are a no vote. No matter what. Got it, and I wonít convince you differently.

Last night you called Jetblue pilots ďwannabe scabs.Ē As someone who walked a picket line, I was really offended.

Not trying to be a dick, but have you ever considered that you would be happier at a legacy carrier? Seriously, that might make you and your family happier. Easier commute? More money? Bigger airplanes?

Do whatís best for you and your family. Always. But man, with the amount of anger you spend on an anonymous message board, maybe you need a change?

Good luck no matter what, honestly. I hope you find what you are looking for.

So an AA pilot comes on here spouting off about how B6 will never be paid like a legacy, when we have fatter margins than all of them save DAL, and you defend it?

What would you call a group that twice votes down a union, while undercutting the industry? Once a union is finally in place that same group seems to be falling all over themselves to vote in an industry lagging TA all to the cries of "We will never be paid like a legacy?" Implicit in this are designs on undercutting our ALPA brethren on cost in order to take their flying while dragging everyone's pay down?

Unfortunately Saab is right. What I am looking for is the actual reason, which he seems unwilling to give.

Its not airline size, profitability, LCC status, or any law of nature. There is one and only one reason we will never be paid like a legacy. Our undercutting scab like pilot group. Vote yes. Get your 11% raise. Pat yourselves on the back while you vote to drag down the industry.

Im gonna go pick up some VDA. I am done helping this group out.

The701Express
05-18-2018, 12:23 PM
man agree or disagree with you, you are my new hero of APC (you are dead to me bluedriver....I kid I kid) itís nice to see a well thought out post. From what I understand I picked a great time to stop reading BP. Like you Iím waiting to read this thing. I am not super stoked about the PS but when I think about the survey and my answers were scope, work rules and insurance, I guess I can blame myself. (Yes que Iím a weak pilot).

Thanks, Payne, I'm glad you and others appreciate my analysis. It seems like our priorities for this CBA are pretty much aligned. The same goes for many other pilots I've spoken with as well.

The NC has impressed me throughout this negotiation with their knowledge of each section of the contract and how it compares to other CBAs. I'm expecting some pretty good language to support these bullet points. We'll see what the final language brings us.

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 01:03 PM
So an AA pilot comes on here spouting off about how B6 will never be paid like a legacy, when we have fatter margins than all of them save DAL, and you defend it?

What would you call a group that twice votes down a union, while undercutting the industry? Once a union is finally in place that same group seems to be falling all over themselves to vote in an industry lagging TA all to the cries of "We will never be paid like a legacy?" Implicit in this are designs on undercutting our ALPA brethren on cost in order to take their flying while dragging everyone's pay down?

Unfortunately Saab is right. What I am looking for is the actual reason, which he seems unwilling to give.

Its not airline size, profitability, LCC status, or any law of nature. There is one and only one reason we will never be paid like a legacy. Our undercutting scab like pilot group. Vote yes. Get your 11% raise. Pat yourselves on the back while you vote to drag down the industry.

Im gonna go pick up some VDA. I am done helping this group out.

Dude.

I donít care what you do. Take care of yourself and your family first.

Calling us ďwannabe scabsĒ was BS. Totally out of line. I voted for ALPA. I supported the union. I wear my lanyard.

Iím saying you need some cool down time. Iím likely voting yes, but I need to look at the final language first. You realize thatís 300+ pages that will define the TA.

I think we are on the same side. We support our union to the max. I donít and never have picked up a VDA/RSA.

I just think the increase in Scope and several other pieces (depending on final language) make the TA worthwhile to vote yes on.

Iím saying I think you might be a happier dude elsewhere. Look at your family. Look at the ability to fly bigger airplanes and an easier commute.

I donít think I know you personally. But you come across as a really angry dude online. Take a breath. Kiss you wife. Hug your kids. Itís not worth your level of anger.

Lift
05-18-2018, 01:39 PM
seekingblue, I'd like to buy you a cold one some time.

Cheers dude!

Hercbubba
05-18-2018, 01:55 PM
Iíve been enjoying the banter these last few days. I also enjoyed some really good, thought out points ( 701express), and the usual bad and angry ones (anybody negative on the points, without reading the full TA yet)
Once again, if the MEC voted 12-0 for the AIP, itís probably a good thing. If after you read it, vote how you want to. But if you vote ďNOĒ and it gets passed, then do yourself a favor, put your money where your mouth is, and go get hired at a legacy. But we all know, if you canít keep your cool on a chat room and just spout off emotionally from some points on a 4 page email, then you probably wonít pass a legacy interview anyway.
I think it looks like a fair deal, but I wonít say ďYESĒ 100% until I sit down and read it cover to cover.
I also know, if it gets voted down, weíll most likely do this dance at the current rates for another 2 years, and possibly end up with a worse AIP.

Iím off to fly some red eyes...Iíll check back after my 4 day.

Max Relax Roll
05-18-2018, 01:59 PM
In 3 years of flying the line and hanging out in the crash pad, I found that almost everyone said one or all of these 5 things were their personal absolutes for any contract:

-scope
-at least industry standard 401k
-at least industry standard pay
-total rebuild of reserve rules (misnomer since it assumes JB actually has/uses reserve rules)
-massively improved health care

From the tiny amount we know now, I feel like the NC got the first four, but didnít exceed expectations on any of them. The bullets provide nothing in the way of useful information regarding health care, so we have to withold judgement there.

Iíd like to see a 321 override, but literally no one I talked to said ďif thereís no 321 override, Iím voting NO.Ē Same goes for profit sharing, premium pick-up, OE bidding, etc. Based on all that, unless there is a giant steaming turd in the final language we donít know about, I think this will pass overwhelmingly.

Cujo665
05-18-2018, 02:11 PM
So why is your union presenting a contract with lower rates and benefits than legacy pay? They do know its NOT OK to be 7 years behind industry pay forever right?

Probably because Jetblue isn’t a global major legacy airline

David Puddy
05-18-2018, 02:22 PM
CS300 should pay more than the E2 - it has more seats. But it is also a much more capable aircraft than the E2 and no doubt Robin would want to take advantage of the range benefits. SWISS initially ordered an even split between smaller CS100s and bigger CS300s and eventually swapped for more CS300s because of the awesome CASM numbers and performance. Chatter among crews seems to suggest a possible CSeries order but you never know... Would make sense considering the Airbus tie-up.

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 02:25 PM
Probably because Jetblue isnít a global major legacy airline

No, its more profitiable per pilot than 2 of the 3 global major legacy airlines.

PasserOGas
05-18-2018, 02:51 PM
Dude.

I donít care what you do. Take care of yourself and your family first.

Calling us ďwannabe scabsĒ was BS. Totally out of line. I voted for ALPA. I supported the union. I wear my lanyard.

Iím saying you need some cool down time. Iím likely voting yes, but I need to look at the final language first. You realize thatís 300+ pages that will define the TA.

I think we are on the same side. We support our union to the max. I donít and never have picked up a VDA/RSA.

I just think the increase in Scope and several other pieces (depending on final language) make the TA worthwhile to vote yes on.

Iím saying I think you might be a happier dude elsewhere. Look at your family. Look at the ability to fly bigger airplanes and an easier commute.

I donít think I know you personally. But you come across as a really angry dude online. Take a breath. Kiss you wife. Hug your kids. Itís not worth your level of anger.

I am going to have to spend my whole career appologizing for this pilot group. Sorry if it makes me mad.

Apps are out but I can't force them to call.

seekingblue
05-18-2018, 03:31 PM
I am going to have to spend my whole career appologizing for this pilot group. Sorry if it makes me mad.

Apps are out but I can't force them to call.

I donít think you should apologize for anything.

We voted Alpa in, our NC got us an AIP that they were happy with and the MEC voted 12-0 to support it.

Parts are great, parts are okay, and parts are ďmeh.Ē

I plan on being a yes vote, and you donít. Thatís okay! Iím not trying to change your mind.

I think itís silly to, ďget mad.Ē Vote your conscience and thatís all you can do. Think of this as a presidential election. Many great folks are going to vote differently than you, and thatís ok. All you can do is vote the way you feel, and let the rest of the pieces fall where they may.

I honestly hope you do get a call somewhere that better suits you. Iím happy to write you a LOR as needed. Honestly. I think you are a good dude. I think you are just to close to this.

Again good luck with the big 3 and PM me if I can help you in anyway. Seriously.

CaptCoolHand
05-18-2018, 03:45 PM
I am going to have to spend my whole career appologizing for this pilot group. Sorry if it makes me mad.

Apps are out but I can't force them to call.

I have to disagree.

Iíve spent the last week speaking with LEC and MEC guys. Over an hour on the phone last night fielding questions with the N.C.

There are numerous things in this contract that will be industry leading most are ďmarket rateĒ or basically what the legacies have or on par with SWA.

Wait for the TA to Be finalized. If you still feel the way you do fine. Vote accordingly. But what weíve Archieíd here is nothing to apologize for.

We always want more. I do. I want more. Is it worth trying to get more?

Rickce7
05-18-2018, 03:54 PM
I have to disagree.

Iíve spent the last week speaking with LEC and MEC guys. Over an hour on the phone last night fielding questions with the N.C.

There are numerous things in this contract that will be industry leading most are ďmarket rateĒ or basically what the legacies have or on par with SWA.

Wait for the TA to Be finalized. If you still feel the way you do fine. Vote accordingly. But what weíve Archieíd here is nothing to apologize for.

We always want more. I do. I want more. Is it worth trying to get more?
^^^ This ^^^

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 04:56 PM
I am going to have to spend my whole career appologizing for this pilot group. Sorry if it makes me mad.

Apps are out but I can't force them to call.

I hope you find what makes you happy POG- The anger and resentment will kill you.
Good luck getting to the legacies, but if you get the chance, take a look at the entire contract and learn something about it before you make foolish claims. Compare the total cost to those of the other five airlines and see where we are.
When I know that, Ill decide on my vote- Does that sound remotely intelligent to you?

Tailhookah
05-18-2018, 05:17 PM
Congrats blue dudes. I think your time has paid off. You should be proud. While not perfect Iíd say a very good first contract. Welcome to a real contract (hopefully).

N311JB
05-18-2018, 05:19 PM
I think what POG is trying to say is there was a time when we would go back and do a stand up or heck even clean. There was a time. I think will the bullet points, thereís nothing that exciting about it. Nothing that will bring me back to that attitude I once I had. I guess thatís how I feel. I wait till the whole thing but thereís no new toy in there that no other airline has kind of feeling. Iíll mostly be happy to fly under the proposal at hand. But get excited to go to work. Eh

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 05:28 PM
I think what POG is trying to say is there was a time when we would go back and do a stand up or heck even clean. There was a time. I think will the bullet points, thereís nothing that exciting about it. Nothing that will bring me back to that attitude I once I had. I guess thatís how I feel. I wait till the whole thing but thereís no new toy in there that no other airline has kind of feeling. Iíll mostly be happy to fly under the proposal at hand. But get excited to go to work. Eh
Um.. POG was saying a bit more, unless I misunderstood the 4 posts where he called the entire pilot group scabs.
He's been seeing red since the bulletpoints came out, without so much as a clue about the details.
I agree completely with what you're saying here- This is a vast improvement, but exciting is not the word I would use. Ill do my job and enjoy the added benefits. Im looking forward to seeing the entire document and voting accordingly. But POG is letting his emotions get the best of his intellect.

pilotpayne
05-18-2018, 05:29 PM
I have to disagree.

Iíve spent the last week speaking with LEC and MEC guys. Over an hour on the phone last night fielding questions with the N.C.

There are numerous things in this contract that will be industry leading most are ďmarket rateĒ or basically what the legacies have or on par with SWA.

Wait for the TA to Be finalized. If you still feel the way you do fine. Vote accordingly. But what weíve Archieíd here is nothing to apologize for.

We always want more. I do. I want more. Is it worth trying to get more?


Hey if he doesnít get a call with these dramatic posts he should have no problem getting a job in soap operas.

One more time passer wait to read the freaking language.

Southerner
05-18-2018, 05:29 PM
I hope you find what makes you happy POG- The anger and resentment will kill you.
Good luck getting to the legacies, but if you get the chance, take a look at the entire contract and learn something about it before you make foolish claims. Compare the total cost to those of the other five airlines and see where we are.
When I know that, Ill decide on my vote- Does that sound remotely intelligent to you?

I'm happy to see some people returning to sanity. Really until we see the full language, we have no idea what the reserve rules, scope, etc. say. And the devil is in the details. I'm probably a yes vote, just from my conversations with a P2P guy, and the bullet points. The bullet points seem to meet my bottom lines, but the final language is what counts.

pilotpayne
05-18-2018, 05:33 PM
Um.. POG was saying a bit more, unless I misunderstood the 4 posts where he called the entire pilot group scabs.
He's been seeing red since the bulletpoints came out, without so much as a clue about the details.
I agree completely with what you're saying here- This is a vast improvement, but exciting is not the word I would use. Ill do my job and enjoy the added benefits. Im looking forward to seeing the entire document and voting accordingly. But POG is letting his emotions get the best of his intellect.

This guy.
Calling us scabs is a bridge to far. Maybe he doesn’t even know what a real scab is. I will also be happy to write a letter because he obviously does not want to be part of this pilot group and I am fine with that. And we have NOTHING to apologize for. Gmafb

Bozo the pilot
05-18-2018, 05:36 PM
I'm happy to see some people returning to sanity. Really until we see the full language, we have no idea what the reserve rules, scope, etc. say. And the devil is in the details. I'm probably a yes vote, just from my conversations with a P2P guy, and the bullet points. The bullet points seem to meet my bottom lines, but the final language is what counts.

B6 is still a total $hitbox South and Im sure you will compliment the company if this passes. Its the NC that got us here. They deserve the credit. I still cant stand the guys who were company over union, but the ones that are now bashing the NC for a TA they know nothing about are just plain wrong. I think you're a good man, but I think you're still a bit nuts. I havent changed a bit.

Southerner
05-18-2018, 06:17 PM
B6 is still a total $hitbox South and Im sure you will compliment the company if this passes. Its the NC that got us here. They deserve the credit. I still cant stand the guys who were company over union, but the ones that are now bashing the NC for a TA they know nothing about are just plain wrong. I think you're a good man, but I think you're still a bit nuts. I havent changed a bit.


I absolutely think the NC deserves the credit for the agreement. You really don't know me, though you think you do.

Mattio
05-18-2018, 07:19 PM
Bullet points say "separate short call and long call schedules". Wondering if the short call schedules will have set start times, but I'm guessing not because it says you won't start before 10am on the first day. Therefore, I really hope they fixed the AM/PM bidding thing because senior guys often get screwed with that. A bypass system might solve that too but I feel like that would've made the bullet points. Whether or not they fix the AM/PM will be big for me and also the staffing language.

N311JB
05-18-2018, 08:27 PM
Some fellas really put their hearts into this place after the last pretty girl didnít want them. Itís tough when you put in hard work towards something that can easily be squandered by a OTP or Thnx for Jetting campaign. Most men put pride in their work, itís our identity for some and when you continually keep getting fleeced by some 2 bit low life company it hurts over time. You question your own self worth. Scabs a little too far. But that word was unddered by me about GOJet back in the day. Iíd like think we want some we can really take home to mom to put it on the fridge door. Some just express it differently

FYI still any Mgmt person I see is my mortal enemy just use the force young sky walker

N311JB
05-18-2018, 08:37 PM
And for me if weighing this as if we already should have industry standard and thatís how Iím judging the points so far. This is probably naive of me because donít have industry standards. I feel like we fought for something we should have already had. Thatís my hang up. Anyone else judging this thing like that?

PasserOGas
05-19-2018, 12:11 AM
I think what POG is trying to say is there was a time when we would go back and do a stand up or heck even clean. There was a time. I think will the bullet points, thereís nothing that exciting about it. Nothing that will bring me back to that attitude I once I had. I guess thatís how I feel. I wait till the whole thing but thereís no new toy in there that no other airline has kind of feeling. Iíll mostly be happy to fly under the proposal at hand. But get excited to go to work. Eh

This. I want to be proud of where I work, and to be motivated to go above and beyond. This does not accomplish that.

Remember a week ago when I was getting harped on for saying we should start helping out again? That was based on the (foolish) assumption that our MEC wouldn't give up our summer leverage unless it was really, really good. This is meh at best. It certainly doesnt raise the bar in any sections, especially pay. When DAL or anyone else starts negotiating C series rates guess who's contract their management will point at? That is not how pattern bargaining should work.

Back of the napkin math shows around a 10% raise when accounting for all the givebacks.

Going to bed where I dream of what the reserve grid will look like once the top guys drop to zero. What fun that will be for the junior lineholder....

citxls
05-19-2018, 12:26 AM
Probably because Jetblue isnít a global major legacy airline

Might not be a bad thing, considering the amount of debt AA is in at any given time.

Southerner
05-19-2018, 04:21 AM
This. I want to be proud of where I work, and to be motivated to go above and beyond. This does not accomplish that.

Remember a week ago when I was getting harped on for saying we should start helping out again? That was based on the (foolish) assumption that our MEC wouldn't give up our summer leverage unless it was really, really good. This is meh at best. It certainly doesnt raise the bar in any sections, especially pay. When DAL or anyone else starts negotiating C series rates guess who's contract their management will point at? That is not how pattern bargaining should work.

Back of the napkin math shows around a 10% raise when accounting for all the givebacks.

Going to bed where I dream of what the reserve grid will look like once the top guys drop to zero. What fun that will be for the junior lineholder....


If dropping to zero is via trade board only, it shouldn't affect the grid. We need to see the language to know for sure.

gzsg
05-19-2018, 04:25 AM
There is a pilot shortage and this is the best negotiating environment ever.

Why would you accept one penny less than industry standard hourly rates??

You can do much better.

IMHO

blueballs
05-19-2018, 05:23 AM
There is a pilot shortage and this is the best negotiating environment ever.

Why would you accept one penny less than industry standard hourly rates??

You can do much better.

IMHO
How could you know what we could do? We havenít seen the final language of the ta as these are bullet points for the aip. No one knows anything of substance yet. Best to save judgement until we see the final product.

The701Express
05-19-2018, 05:33 AM
There is a pilot shortage and this is the best negotiating environment ever.

Why would you accept one penny less than industry standard hourly rates??

You can do much better.

IMHO

No one here has seen the work rules written out completely.

No one here has seen the whole scope section.

No one here has seen what improvements to insurance there are.

Pay rates are just one factor in the equation determining compensation and quality of life. Your tunnel vision focus on pay rates is causing you to omit the importance of numerous other sections of the CBA which carry a great value too.

We will wait to see if a TA is presented to this pilot group, we'll review it and vote according to how it meets our expectations and lives up to our values.

cmesoar
05-19-2018, 05:37 AM
How could you know what we could do? We havenít seen the final language of the ta as these are bullet points for the aip. No one knows anything of substance yet. Best to save judgement until we see the final product.

Exactly, anyone that votes on just pay rates, is just simply dumb...Simply put, until you have read the entire TA, please do not vote.

seekingblue
05-19-2018, 06:07 AM
There is a pilot shortage and this is the best negotiating environment ever.

Why would you accept one penny less than industry standard hourly rates??

You can do much better.

IMHO

Awesome.

Someone who isnít here telling us how we should negotiate. Without seeing the 300+ pages w/full language.

Where do you work, sir? Iíd like to randomly dissect something about your company, despite being largely uninformed.

hilltopflyer
05-19-2018, 06:16 AM
And for me if weighing this as if we already should have industry standard and thatís how Iím judging the points so far. This is probably naive of me because donít have industry standards. I feel like we fought for something we should have already had. Thatís my hang up. Anyone else judging this thing like that?

Ya that's where I'm at. It's hard to be happy about this when this is the contract we should have had 1-3 years ago. So company played this very well.

Rickce7
05-19-2018, 06:22 AM
Another pay issue (I know. . pay isn't the entire contract). . . The current 5% which is PS, as well as monthly input to our 401k. Now that we are getting a 15% direct contribution, where will this 5% go? Will we get it with the rest of the PS at the end of the year? If not, then we haven't really gained anything other than the guarantee from the contract that we will get it rather than Board approval. We will have gained 2% but then lost 5%. Am I seeing something wrong there?

Dyrek2
05-19-2018, 06:42 AM
Another pay issue (I know. . pay isn't the entire contract). . . The current 5% which is PS, as well as monthly input to our 401k. Now that we are getting a 15% direct contribution, where will this 5% go? Will we get it with the rest of the PS at the end of the year? If not, then we haven't really gained anything other than the guarantee from the contract that we will get it rather than Board approval. We will have gained 2% but then lost 5%. Am I seeing something wrong there?

Basically...in order to get the current 12.5% company contribution to your 401k, you have to put in 5% - totaling 17.5%. They'll now put 15% directly into your 401k.

Want to keep putting 17.5% in your 401k? You only need to put 2.5% in, which means you got a 2.5% raise.

Maybe my math is wrong, but that's how I understand the new 401k contribution.

nuball5
05-19-2018, 06:58 AM
I wonder if they'll keep JRA/Prem when rescheduled outside your footprint. Twice in the past two months I've been rescheduled to complete a different turn that finished 20 minutes later. I've had it on Reserve too, rescheduled to finish outside my footprint on day 2 of 5 of RSV.

benzoate
05-19-2018, 07:01 AM
None of this is going to matter with Joanna Garitty being named COO and Pres. You know have a former mil guy with Zero airline experience and a lawyer with Zero airline experience running (guess what) an airline.

capt707
05-19-2018, 07:03 AM
I wonder if they'll keep JRA/Prem when rescheduled outside your footprint. Twice in the past two months I've been rescheduled to complete a different turn that finished 20 minutes later. I've had it on Reserve too, rescheduled to finish outside my footprint on day 2 of 5 of RSV.

Yes, and I heard it will be 200% pay

Softpayman
05-19-2018, 08:00 AM
None of this is going to matter with Joanna Garitty being named COO and Pres. You know have a former mil guy with Zero airline experience and a lawyer with Zero airline experience running (guess what) an airline.

Hasn't the lawyer been with JetBlue since 2005? Was JetBlue an airline back then and if so, would this count as airline experience?

atrdriver
05-19-2018, 08:27 AM
Hasn't the lawyer been with JetBlue since 2005? Was JetBlue an airline back then and if so, would this count as airline experience?

Come on, now. Running human resources at an airline isn't the same as running an airline operation.

It's like they want the place to fail.

hair-on-fire
05-19-2018, 11:13 AM
Basically...in order to get the current 12.5% company contribution to your 401k, you have to put in 5% - totaling 17.5%. They'll now put 15% directly into your 401k.

Want to keep putting 17.5% in your 401k? You only need to put 2.5% in, which means you got a 2.5% raise.

Maybe my math is wrong, but that's how I understand the new 401k contribution.

WTF? Current contribution is 13%.

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 11:22 AM
Another pay issue (I know. . pay isn't the entire contract). . . The current 5% which is PS, as well as monthly input to our 401k. Now that we are getting a 15% direct contribution, where will this 5% go? Will we get it with the rest of the PS at the end of the year? If not, then we haven't really gained anything other than the guarantee from the contract that we will get it rather than Board approval. We will have gained 2% but then lost 5%. Am I seeing something wrong there?

We don't get 5% of PS in our 401k now. Yes, the company rebranded it that way but it's not profit sharing. It's just 5% of your up to 13% (AIP 15-16%) contribution. The 5% PS cliff is simply gone; we don't get it anywhere, including in the AIP. The only thing the AIP does for us in this regard is increase the company contribution 2% (3% in 2021) without the requirement to match funds. That's it, there's nothing else there.

Bluedriver
05-19-2018, 11:28 AM
We don't get 5% of PS in our 401k now. Yes, the company rebranded it that way but it's not profit sharing. It's just 5% of your up to 13% (AIP 15-16%) contribution. The 5% PS cliff is simply gone; we don't get it anywhere, including in the AIP. The only thing the AIP does for us in this regard is increase the company contribution 2% (3% in 2021) without the requirement to match funds. That's it, there's nothing else there.

Not! On the retirement side you are correct. On the profit sharing payout side, the cliff is alive and well...

They will pay you your profit sharing in case ONLY that profit sharing that exceeds 5% of your eligible wages.

So in a year that we earn enough to get a profit sharing check of 6%, our actual check is for 1%.

First 5% goes to Robin and Joanna.

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 11:31 AM
Not! On the retirement side you are correct. On the profit sharing payout side, the cliff is alive and well...

They will pay you your profit sharing in case ONLY that profit sharing that exceeds 5% of your eligible wages.

So in a year that we earn enough to get a profit sharing check of 6%, our actual check is for 1%.

First 5% goes to Robin and Joanna.

That's what I just said. We don't get the 5% PS cliff in our 401k or anywhere else, it's simply gone. The AIP does nothing to change this.

Rickce7
05-19-2018, 11:34 AM
That's what I just said. We don't get the 5% PS cliff in our 401k or anywhere else, it's simply gone. The AIP does nothing to change this.
So that takes me back to my original point. Aren't we losing 2% in overall compensation?

todd1200
05-19-2018, 11:35 AM
Another pay issue (I know. . pay isn't the entire contract). . . The current 5% which is PS, as well as monthly input to our 401k. Now that we are getting a 15% direct contribution, where will this 5% go? Will we get it with the rest of the PS at the end of the year? If not, then we haven't really gained anything other than the guarantee from the contract that we will get it rather than Board approval. We will have gained 2% but then lost 5%. Am I seeing something wrong there?

We werenít really getting that 5%, it was counted twice but we were obviously only getting it once. Weíre gaining 2% and losing nothing (toward retirement), plus we donít have to put in any of our own money if we donít want to.

Unfortunately, if I understand correctly, the 5% profit-sharing cliff remains with the AIP, so that 5% just evaporates-itíll be counted toward profit sharing, but we wonít actually get it (but again, we donít lose anything compared to current practice). I like the fact that the AIP decouples our retirement from profit-sharing, so they shouldnít have anything to do with each other going forward (based only on my understanding of the bullet-points)

Rickce7
05-19-2018, 11:35 AM
I am dense, maybe I am missing the point. . . If there was a down year, and we lost money, JB didn't have to put that 5% in our 401k right? The Board could have voted to hold it back since it was PS, I thought.

Rickce7
05-19-2018, 11:36 AM
We werenít really getting that 5%, it was counted twice but we were obviously only getting it once. Weíre gaining 2% and losing nothing (toward retirement), plus we donít have to put in any of our own money if we donít want to.

Unfortunately, if I understand correctly, the 5% profit-sharing cliff remains with the AIP, so that 5% just evaporates-itíll be counted toward profit sharing, but we wonít actually get it (but again, we donít lose anything compared to current practice). I like the fact that the AIP decouples our retirement from profit-sharing, so they shouldnít have anything to do with each other going forward (based only on my understanding of the bullet-points)
Ok, I guess I am getting it now. . .I am with you

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 11:51 AM
So that takes me back to my original point. Aren't we losing 2% in overall compensation?

No, because we're not getting the cliff now either. PS stays the same. 401k contribution increases from 13% including match to 15-16% without requiring a match.

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 11:55 AM
I am dense, maybe I am missing the point. . . If there was a down year, and we lost money, JB didn't have to put that 5% in our 401k right? The Board could have voted to hold it back since it was PS, I thought.

Most of our retirement, benefits, and bonuses have been at board discretion. A CBA would take that discretion away, but that doesn't imply improvements. There's a lot of "codifies current policy" language in the bullet points, meaning no change, but no takeaways possible either.

CaptCoolHand
05-19-2018, 02:03 PM
Guys. The profit share system stays the same. And so does the cliff.

Youíll get it 15% to your 401... then! If tHe company math derives that they give out a PS for the year whatever the number is pilots get 5% less than everyone else. Thatís why itís called a cliff.

CaptCoolHand
05-19-2018, 02:06 PM
No, because we're not getting the cliff now either. PS stays the same. 401k contribution increases from 13% including match to 15-16% without requiring a match.


The Match was not the cliff. the cliff was the 5% ps that went to the 401 that youĒ get no matter whatĒ but subtracted from overall PS.

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 02:56 PM
The Match was not the cliff. the cliff was the 5% ps that went to the 401 that youĒ get no matter whatĒ but subtracted from overall PS.

I never implied the match was the cliff, just describing the ONLY change in the AIP regarding PS and 401k.

And we never got the cliff. That was a three card Monty scam, with BJ trying to double count the same money. Either they renamed it Retirement Plus and added it to our 8% 401k contribution, or they discarded it and we got the claimed 13% 401k contribution. We never got both the cliff and 13%.

CaptCoolHand
05-19-2018, 03:01 PM
I never implied the match was the cliff, just describing the ONLY change in the AIP regarding PS and 401k.

Ok maybe I’m not following you. PS did not change and we DO still have the cliff. The only change is to 401 and the need for a match. Or rather no need to match.

Blue Dude
05-19-2018, 03:04 PM
Right. Same profit sharing, same cliff, but requirement to match is gone. 15% instead of 13%. That's everything.

CaptCoolHand
05-19-2018, 03:08 PM
Right. Same profit sharing, same cliff, but requirement to match is gone. 15% instead of 13%. That's everything.

Roger. Same page👍🏼

benzoate
05-19-2018, 03:14 PM
Hasn't the lawyer been with JetBlue since 2005? Was JetBlue an airline back then and if so, would this count as airline experience?

All the lawyers knows is jetblue. All the people before her knew jetblue. Jetblue hasnít done anything operational correct since itís inceptoon so promoting from within means repeatedly making the same mistakes as those who came before them. No experience from other carriers and the arrogance to think they donít need it and you have 12/12 in OTP.

Nothing will change with the lawyer and the Mil guy. Neither one has any experience operationally yet both are now running an operation.

gzsg
05-19-2018, 05:23 PM
The UAL A321 Rate is $283.20 this upcoming January. They are in Section 6 negotiations as we speak.

Pay rates are not everything, but this offer is ridiculously low.

JetBlue pays the same for a SEC as United

JetBlue pays the same for a FAC as American

JetBlue pays the same for an ELAC as Delta

What is it that we get suckered into paying pilots less? The cost of a pilot is $283.20 plus 4% a year.

You can do much better.

Dyrek2
05-19-2018, 05:39 PM
WTF? Current contribution is 13%.

Sorry... I was off .5%.

Dyrek2
05-19-2018, 05:42 PM
We werenít really getting that 5%, it was counted twice but we were obviously only getting it once. Weíre gaining 2% and losing nothing (toward retirement)

Or put another way, this 2% gain just paid your annual ALPA dues!

Rickce7
05-19-2018, 05:42 PM
The UAL A321 Rate is $283.20 this upcoming January. They are in Section 6 negotiations as we speak.

Pay rates are not everything, but this offer is ridiculously low.

JetBlue pays the same for a SEC as United

JetBlue pays the same for a FAC as American

JetBlue pays the same for an ELAC as Delta

What is it that we get suckered into paying pilots less? The cost of a pilot is $283.20 plus 4% a year.

You can do much better.
Will you and all of your ALPA brethren at UAL chip in and pay for our opportunity cost if we vote down this offer? Life doesn't operate in a vacuum. Everything has to be considered. Do we want more? We are pilots. . of course we do.



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