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View Full Version : Picking Up Flying On Reserve


Cyio
05-17-2018, 07:30 AM
Quick question that I need some clarification on from those that are more familiar with the reserve rules.

So, assuming I am scheduled for the RAP1 and decide to pickup a flight the next day that is on the proffer list. If that flight then starts at say 2pm, am I still responsible to be available for the RAP1 or does my day officially start at my check in time for the 2pm flight?

In addition, say the flight that I proffered for is an overnight that departs the outstation at 12pm and arrives back in base at 3pm, am I officially done at that point or would I need to get released with the option to get reassigned? If I could get reassigned what would be the limit that they could extend me? Duty day?

All of this assumes not the last day of reserve. Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.


highfarfast
05-17-2018, 07:45 AM
Quick question that I need some clarification on from those that are more familiar with the reserve rules.

So, assuming I am scheduled for the RAP1 and decide to pickup a flight the next day that is on the proffer list. If that flight then starts at say 2pm, am I still responsible to be available for the RAP1 or does my day officially start at my check in time for the 2pm flight?

In addition, say the flight that I proffered for is an overnight that departs the outstation at 12pm and arrives back in base at 3pm, am I officially done at that point or would I need to get released with the option to get reassigned? If I could get reassigned what would be the limit that they could extend me? Duty day?

All of this assumes not the last day of reserve. Thank you in advance for any and all assistance.

If you have been assigned a flight assignment and you have confirmed it, you're no longer on RAP.

CS can assigned you additional flying. However, once you get done with your last flight (the door is opened), check your schedule (HI3) and take a screen shot for personal protection and check your HI6. Both of them, your HI3 and your HI6. If they haven't given you additional flying by that point, you're released.

Cyio
05-17-2018, 07:54 AM
If you have been assigned a flight assignment and you have confirmed it, you're no longer on RAP.

CS can assigned you additional flying. However, once you get done with your last flight (the door is opened), check your schedule (HI3) and take a screen shot for personal protection and check your HI6. Both of them, your HI3 and your HI6. If they haven't given you additional flying by that point, you're released.

Thank you very much.


Pedro4President
05-17-2018, 10:05 AM
If you have been assigned a flight assignment and you have confirmed it, you're no longer on RAP.

CS can assigned you additional flying. However, once you get done with your last flight (the door is opened), check your schedule (HI3) and take a screen shot for personal protection and check your HI6. Both of them, your HI3 and your HI6. If they haven't given you additional flying by that point, you're released.

^^^^ essentially he is right. Do what he says and you will never screw up.

Section 12 E 6 - "A reserve pilot will be released from duty upon checking his HI3 AFTER aircraft block in if no additional flying has been added to his schedule. The pilot may also call for release...."

The HI6 requirement is ONLY if you have started the day on a RAP. Essentially it doesn't matter because they never call you on a RAP and then fly you only to put you back on a RAP. Never happens to anyone ever since I have been here.

Also I'm not a 100 percent sure it matters but it has been explained to me that checking your HI3 needs to be done via MobileFOS or a computer that has FOS. MobileCCI isn't sufficient. It was explained that the company can see that you have checked your HI3 on FOS but not on mobileCCI.

Also there is NO requirement about the 15 minute rule. If you block in and check your HI3 screen shot it and CS calls you 5 seconds later you are done.

Cyio
05-17-2018, 10:51 AM
^^^^ essentially he is right. Do what he says and you will never screw up.

Section 12 E 6 - "A reserve pilot will be released from duty upon checking his HI3 AFTER aircraft block in if no additional flying has been added to his schedule. The pilot may also call for release...."

The HI6 requirement is ONLY if you have started the day on a RAP. Essentially it doesn't matter because they never call you on a RAP and then fly you only to put you back on a RAP. Never happens to anyone ever since I have been here.

Also I'm not a 100 percent sure it matters but it has been explained to me that checking your HI3 needs to be done via MobileFOS or a computer that has FOS. MobileCCI isn't sufficient. It was explained that the company can see that you have checked your HI3 on FOS but not on mobileCCI.

Also there is NO requirement about the 15 minute rule. If you block in and check your HI3 screen shot it and CS calls you 5 seconds later you are done.
Great info thanks.

highfarfast
05-17-2018, 12:17 PM
Also I'm not a 100 percent sure it matters but it has been explained to me that checking your HI3 needs to be done via MobileFOS or a computer that has FOS. MobileCCI isn't sufficient. It was explained that the company can see that you have checked your HI3 on FOS but not on mobileCCI.

I've heard people say this in the crew room but I haven't seen anywhere in the contract that it states this. MobileCCI is a company app. If my screen shot of HI3 via MobileCCI that shows the date and time I pulled the schedule isn't enough to prove I 'checked' my schedule then it will be grieved. Pretty sure I'll win too.

The rest, I agree with.

SkylineAviation
05-17-2018, 01:48 PM
I've heard people say this in the crew room but I haven't seen anywhere in the contract that it states this. MobileCCI is a company app. If my screen shot of HI3 via MobileCCI that shows the date and time I pulled the schedule isn't enough to prove I 'checked' my schedule then it will be grieved. Pretty sure I'll win too.

The rest, I agree with.

Youíre right. Checking your HI3 whether FOS or CCi makes no difference. Set the brake and when door opens, you check...youíre done if nothing added

Aviatrx
05-17-2018, 03:18 PM
I donít know for certain, but I am almost positive that the company will know if you check CCI. I believe it to be sufficient from my experience

Pedro4President
05-17-2018, 04:40 PM
I donít know for certain, but I am almost positive that the company will know if you check CCI. I believe it to be sufficient from my experience

Regardless of your method of checking someone said it before and I'll echo it again SCREEN SHOT your HI3.

highfarfast
05-17-2018, 05:14 PM
I donít know for certain, but I am almost positive that the company will know if you check CCI. I believe it to be sufficient from my experience

I don't even understand the significance of them needing to know via FOS that you checked your schedule. The intent is that if you're not assigned flying by the time you're done, you're released. You checking is just to ensure you haven't gotten extended. If someone tries to assigned you flying after your done but before you checked your schedule, THEY are playing games. The entire concept of 'they can't tell if you checked' is bogus to me.

Just have proof that you did in case someone is trying to play games.

cabotage
05-17-2018, 06:37 PM
The rule is either you self release (HI3 & HI6), *OR* you wait 15 minutes - whichever comes first releases you.

So, it matters if they know you checked your schedule and mail to self release (whether it be via screenshot submitted in a grievance or the company "seeing" that you checked it). I have no clue which apps the company can and cannot see - but as mentioned before, screenshot it so that you are the one holding the evidence that you were properly released if you ignore a phone call before 15 mins have passed.

To me, it's easier to do on MobileFOS because it's one screenshot to show that both have been checked.

highfarfast
05-17-2018, 07:09 PM
*OR* you wait 15 minutes - whichever comes first releases you.

I'm not saying your wrong... it's hard to find all the details in the contract and know them well and it's possible I've missed it (and the 15 minute story that's told in the crew room has to come from somewhere)... but I've never seen this. Can you point me to where it is?

bigtime209
05-17-2018, 07:48 PM
Donít have the contract handy, but Iím fairly certain they donít specify how you must check your HI3/HI6 for release. I believe it basically says check your HI3/HI6...period. If I wanna check via CCI, thatís what Iím gonna do.

ENH017
05-17-2018, 08:28 PM
12.E.6

6. A reserve pilot will be released upon checking his HI3 for additional
assigned flying or by contacting crew scheduling in accordance with
the following:
a. A reserve pilot will be released from duty upon checking his HI3
after aircraft block-in if no additional flying has been added to his
schedule. The pilot may also call for release. Additional flying
may only be added to such pilotís schedule, pursuant to
paragraphs 12.E.1 through 3 above.
b. A reserve pilot on RAP who has been called out for a flight
assignment ending that same day may also utilize this method
for release, but must also check his HI6 to determine his status
(returned to RAP or released to rest; the default is ďreleased to
restĒ if no HI6 is received).

Like a user above noted, regardless of how you checked the HI3/HI6 if you have proof of when you did with a screenshot you'd probably win a grievance if the company even decided to push that far.

Pedro4President
05-18-2018, 01:48 AM
The rule is either you self release (HI3 & HI6), *OR* you wait 15 minutes - whichever comes first releases you.

So, it matters if they know you checked your schedule and mail to self release (whether it be via screenshot submitted in a grievance or the company "seeing" that you checked it). I have no clue which apps the company can and cannot see - but as mentioned before, screenshot it so that you are the one holding the evidence that you were properly released if you ignore a phone call before 15 mins have passed.

Please no one add anything else on how to get released after a flight unless you back it up with a contract.
To me, it's easier to do on MobileFOS because it's one screenshot to show that both have been checked.

Sorry but the "15 minute" rule is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Stop telling other people about it. It will get you in trouble.

The so called "15 minute" rule doesn't exist. It's simply a part 117 time line of when rest can start after a flight. It's not contractual or a valid way to be released from duty.

Also, how do you know if you don't have anymore flying if you haven't checked your hi3????

Also, let's say you block in a CS starts calling your phone and leave a voicemail for additional flying. After the call you check your hi3 and nothing is on there you are still released. NOTHING in our contract or FM1 says you have to have a cellphone while flying a trip.

Aviatrx
05-18-2018, 03:39 AM
THIS. Many moons ago I had tunnel vision with regards to making my commute. Apparently one of our super star CSís issued me a turn back without notice. No ďin range crew connectĒ and no phone call. I discovered my Missed Assignment after I got home from my commute. Lesson learned the hard way for me. As far as CS goes, I would have been happy to work the extra turn. A phone call or in range would have gotten the flight out on time. On that occasion , I felt like this guy was out to burn pilots for some reason. The MA was not removed due to me not checking.

Cyio
05-18-2018, 05:07 AM
Again, thank you all for the answers and its always good to make sure we understand this. I appreciate all the replies.

moon
05-18-2018, 05:46 AM
THIS. Many moons ago I had tunnel vision with regards to making my commute. Apparently one of our super star CSís issued me a turn back without notice. No ďin range crew connectĒ and no phone call. I discovered my Missed Assignment after I got home from my commute. Lesson learned the hard way for me. As far as CS goes, I would have been happy to work the extra turn. A phone call or in range would have gotten the flight out on time. On that occasion , I felt like this guy was out to burn pilots for some reason. The MA was not removed due to me not checking.

That's standard practice. I've received a phone call about being turned back 1 or 2 times in my 5 years of reserve. Them calling and notifying you is what is out of the ordinary. No in range was simply because it wasn't on your schedule yet.

cabotage
05-20-2018, 08:06 PM
The 15 minute rule "thing" is in FM1, under Crew Qualification and Responsibility, Flight Crew Reporting and Release, Paragraph F. The first sentence:

"Pilots will be released from duty 15 minutes after block in of a flight (30 minutes if required to clear customs), unless required to reposition an aircraft, in which case the release time will be extended as necessary to complete the repositioning."


The pilot contract is not the only document.

That is the second item if you search the FM1 pdf for "15 min".


I agree that relying on "the 15 minute rule" as referenced by "the internet forum" is a great way to get yourself into trouble.

At best, anything you read on internet forums is a pointer for you to research yourself if it is important to you, including this post - you shouldn't just trust my "ctrl+f" abilities, I'm falible and I'm some entity on an internet forum. If this subject is important to you, then follow up on your own until you are comfortable enough with your own knowledge to ignore a CS call after your last leg.


Until then, if you want to go home - HI3 + HI6 (follow up on this yourself).
If you want to fly more, call CS and say "Can I fly more please?" (follow up on this yourself - you have duty limits).

highfarfast
05-21-2018, 04:02 AM
The 15 minute thing I've heard several times in the crew room suggests we are subject to being assigned additional flying in that 15 minutes.

What you just quoted doesn't say we are subject to being assigned more flying in that 15 minutes. Just that we are still considered on duty for 15 minutes after block in. There is even a note immediately following the quoted text in FM1 regarding what the 15 minutes is for.

cabotage
05-21-2018, 05:15 AM
FM1 says you are still "on duty" for that 15 minutes, as a reserve pilot on duty and not mid sequence you are subject to reassignment.

That note just says that the 15 minutes cannot be removed from your duty day for the purposes of determining rest. You are still "on duty" either way, it just protects you from having CS squeeze in an extra 15 mins to your duty day by getting rid of the 15 min debrief.

The contract allows you to self release with HI3 & HI6 immediately after block in. The 15 minute post flight debrief is still considered for the purposes of determining rest.


By all means, if you think this is all silly crew room business then don't check your HI3&6 and don't pick up your phone when CS calls 10 mins after block in and leaves you a voicemail with a valid flight assignment. Let us know how the grievance goes.

There's no reason I would know any better than the next guy - but to me this "myth" is spelled out pretty clearly.

Pedro4President
05-21-2018, 05:27 AM
The 15 minute rule "thing" is in FM1, under Crew Qualification and Responsibility, Flight Crew Reporting and Release, Paragraph F. The first sentence:

"Pilots will be released from duty 15 minutes after block in of a flight (30 minutes if required to clear customs), unless required to reposition an aircraft, in which case the release time will be extended as necessary to complete the repositioning."


The pilot contract is not the only document.

That is the second item if you search the FM1 pdf for "15 min".


I agree that relying on "the 15 minute rule" as referenced by "the internet forum" is a great way to get yourself into trouble.

At best, anything you read on internet forums is a pointer for you to research yourself if it is important to you, including this post - you shouldn't just trust my "ctrl+f" abilities, I'm falible and I'm some entity on an internet forum. If this subject is important to you, then follow up on your own until you are comfortable enough with your own knowledge to ignore a CS call after your last leg.


Until then, if you want to go home - HI3 + HI6 (follow up on this yourself).
If you want to fly more, call CS and say "Can I fly more please?" (follow up on this yourself - you have duty limits).

So just for clarification we are talking about RESERVE pilots. The section you are referring is referring to all pilots and in response to part 117 rules.

highfarfast
05-21-2018, 05:34 AM
So just for clarification we are talking about RESERVE pilots. The section you are referring is referring to all pilots and in response to part 117 rules.

Yes. And as such, I think cabotoge is taking this out of context. But at least I know where the 15 minute thing I've heard is coming from now.

cabotage
05-21-2018, 05:40 AM
Really? That's the same section that says Captains are the final authority, deviations from CFR due to emergency, sign in 45 mins prior, so on and so forth.



Again, if you are so confident then don't check HI3 & 6 and don't pick up your phone 15 mins after block in - grieve it and let us know.

But in the grievance they might inform you something along the lines of "reserve pilot fall under the category of all pilots" and you aren't exempt from the "qualifications and responsibilities" section of FM1 just because you are on reserve.

moon
05-21-2018, 05:47 AM
Really? That's the same section that says Captains are the final authority, deviations from CFR due to emergency, sign in 45 mins prior, so on and so forth.



Again, if you are so confident then don't check HI3 & 6 and don't pick up your phone 15 mins after block in - grieve it and let us know.

But in the grievance they might inform you something along the lines of "reserve pilot fall under the category of all pilots" and you aren't exempt from the "qualifications and responsibilities" section of FM1 just because you are on reserve.

Been there done that. Checked schedule nothing there. scheduling calls 5 min later leaves 3 voicemails to add flying. You no what happened nothing. No MA no calls to the chief no grievance needed. a non event because HI3 releases you. You are not required to have a phone while on duty so how are they going to contact you in those 15 Minutes?

Stop spreading this terrible advice you are only assisting the company by helping to further confuse your coworkers

cabotage
05-21-2018, 06:02 AM
I've made a terrible mistake, I engaged on APC forums.


The only advice i'm spreading is to always screenshot your HI3 & HI6 immediately after block in if you don't want more flying. That way there is no question and you hold your own evidence.

Also, I've been pretty up front that this is my interpretation (however clear it may seem to me) and everyone should do their own research and come to their own conclusions if they care.

Maybe I'm right about 15 mins, maybe I'm wrong - to me it is as clear as day in FM1. Either way, if you check and screenshot there is no question. If you don't then you run the risk of dealing with a grievance (whether the company is in the right by doing so or not) where you're arguing which parts of FM1 apply to you instead of just submitting screenshots.


At the end of the day we've now spent more time bantering about silly non-issues on APC than it would take to screenshot for the rest of the year haha.

Pedro4President
05-21-2018, 07:56 AM
I've made a terrible mistake, I engaged on APC forums.


The only advice i'm spreading is to always screenshot your HI3 & HI6 immediately after block in if you don't want more flying. That way there is no question and you hold your own evidence.

Also, I've been pretty up front that this is my interpretation (however clear it may seem to me) and everyone should do their own research and come to their own conclusions if they care.

Maybe I'm right about 15 mins, maybe I'm wrong - to me it is as clear as day in FM1. Either way, if you check and screenshot there is no question. If you don't then you run the risk of dealing with a grievance (whether the company is in the right by doing so or not) where you're arguing which parts of FM1 apply to you instead of just submitting screenshots.


At the end of the day we've now spent more time bantering about silly non-issues on APC than it would take to screenshot for the rest of the year haha.

So according to FM1 and our contract a reserve pilot is required to check his HI3 and HI6 when he finishes a trip. Done! Finished!! It's not an either or it's both. You have to. Nothing there then you go home.

Let's be clear. There is ABSOLUTELY no requirement to have a cell phone while on duty. A pilot flying a trip has no responsibility to answer any phone call from crew scheduling. Only a pilot on a RAP is contractually required to return a call from CS. Pilots on ready reserve that doesn't have a cell phone are required to stay in the crew/ready reserve room.

Obviously you are new. I would caution you on reading and taking something at face value because when it comes to our contract it's not always clear cut even though it seems to be.

llws
05-21-2018, 10:22 AM
Yes. And as such, I think cabotoge is taking this out of context. But at least I know where the 15 minute thing I've heard is coming from now.

So you've never read FM-1?

highfarfast
05-21-2018, 10:40 AM
So you've never read FM-1?

I actually read that section just last week. But what he's taking from it never occurred to me because no where does it say that CS can assign you more flying in that 15 minutes.