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View Full Version : "Industry Leading Scope"


Bluedriver
05-22-2018, 05:06 AM
Stop saying this.

1. I believe SWA is the clear scope leader.

2. If we merge with AA, DL, UAL or ***ALASKA*** that RJ scope might just as well be written on toilet paper.

Just saying.


capt707
05-22-2018, 05:21 AM
Have you read the full language, yet?

PasserOGas
05-22-2018, 05:31 AM
Have you read the full language, yet?

So we are dropping Emarates, Aer Lingus, Azul, Cape Air, Jetsuite, etc...?

Because we would have to do that just to MATCH the scope SWA has. It is NOT industry leading. I can tell you that without looking at it.


BeatNavy
05-22-2018, 05:42 AM
Have you read the full language, yet?

-limitations on code sharing and joint ventures
-limitations on C91 flying

If there are ďlimitations,Ē that indicates there are some provisions in place to allow for some of each. Otherwise it would have said
-no code sharing or joint ventures
-no C91 flying

Does SWA have any of the above? If not, regardless of the language, how could it possibly be industry leading if there is an airline that has none of the above allowed?

Also, the bullet points donít claim anywhere that this AIP has industry leading scope. While I agree that reading the full language is required to assess the full value of this AIP, and to fully understand each section and expand on the bullet points, some conclusions can be drawn that that donít necessarily need full language. And having second best scope has value...not arguing that.

Bluedriver
05-22-2018, 05:43 AM
Have you read the full language, yet?

Ok, I'll bite, put your money where your mouth is.

$100 real money bet that our new scope does not claw back all the international codesharing we do with big airplanes to the same extent as SWA?

You in?

Or you just wanna play the "you don't know for SURE" game for a few more weeks?

I guess I don't know "for SURE" that my wife isn't going to ride home tonight on a unicorn two-up with Kate Beckinsale and take turns mouthing me while I grill a ribeye and drink a beer.... Could happen, but I think the chances are about equal between the unicorn thing and us clawing back all our international codesharing...

Bluedriver
05-22-2018, 05:47 AM
If there are ďlimitations,Ē that indicates there are some provisions in place to allow for some of each. Otherwise it would have said
-no code sharing or joint ventures
-no C91 flying

Does SWA have any of the above? If not, regardless of the language, how could it possibly be industry leading if there is an airline that has none of the above allowed?

Also, the bullet points donít claim anywhere that this AIP has industry leading scope. While I agree that reading the full language is required to assess the full value of this AIP, and to fully understand each section and expand on the bullet points, some conclusions can be drawn that that donít necessarily need full language. And having second best scope has value...not arguing that.

Second best scope definitely has lots of value. Just sick of hearing"industry leading" when that clearly is not the case.

And just as Continental's "nothing bigger than 50 seats" scope magically disappeared after the United merger I would bet our "no RJ" scope vanishes after a merger with the big 3 or ***ALASKA***.

I prefer to at least understand where we are vulnerable rather than think we have won a permanent RJ victory.

rvr1800
05-22-2018, 05:49 AM
Ok so second best Scope section? I’ll take it over what the legacies have. Hard to say without the full language.

Scope isn’t a problem with this AIP.

Bluedriver
05-22-2018, 06:57 AM
Ok so second best Scope section? Iíll take it over what the legacies have. Hard to say without the full language.

Scope isnít a problem with this AIP.

Probably true, and good. Unless we merge with someone...

flyguy81
05-22-2018, 02:58 PM
SWA scope allows for codeshares based on certain stipulations and only with union approval. Ex: Cannot codeshare from Mexico or Canada ever but Europe/Asia is ok until the pax number reaches a certain amount and then the route must be flown by SWA pilots.

Bozo the pilot
05-22-2018, 03:04 PM
So we are dropping Emarates, Aer Lingus, Azul, Cape Air, Jetsuite, etc...?

Because we would have to do that just to MATCH the scope SWA has. It is NOT industry leading. I can tell you that without looking at it.

Saying anything without looking is a guess.
Ill ask the same question to you; How much do you believe we will gain by voting no and how long are you willing to wait?
And do the gains of waiting outweigh the immediate improvements?
I honestly dont know- Do you? Maybe gambling is what we should do-Im open to all ideas, but so should you hard NO voters.

queue
05-22-2018, 04:25 PM
Saying anything without looking is a guess.
Ill ask the same question to you; How much do you believe we will gain by voting no and how long are you willing to wait?
And do the gains of waiting outweigh the immediate improvements?
I honestly dont know- Do you? Maybe gambling is what we should do-Im open to all ideas, but so should you hard NO voters.


But he should not automatically be open to saying YES until the contract language proves itself to meet minimum requirements. Yes and No are on the table, with NO being a safer, more conservative answer since you have everything to gain by renegotiating. BJ wants this done quickly. You can always revert to AIP 1. We KNOW that BJ is willing to accept AIP 1.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-22-2018, 04:32 PM
But he should not automatically be open to saying YES until the contract language proves itself to meet minimum requirements. Yes and No are on the table, with NO being a safer, more conservative answer since you have everything to gain by renegotiating. BJ wants this done quickly. You can always revert to AIP 1. We KNOW that BJ is willing to accept AIP 1.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
No answer, without thorough info, is ever safe Q. This could go either way- the yes leaning guys seem to be more calm, and less adamant than the hard NO guys. That indicates a more measured response until information is complete. Measured is the safer way to proceed Q.

queue
05-22-2018, 04:58 PM
No answer, without thorough info, is ever safe Q. This could go either way- the yes leaning guys seem to be more calm, and less adamant than the hard NO guys. That indicates a more measured response until information is complete. Measured is the safer way to proceed Q.


Since when do facts care about your feelings? Who cares how something seems? Does being "calm" or the perception of it across written words even matter? Do you really evaluate a situation like that?


The hard NO guys are more adamant in your perception because it's far more logical to have a NO posture until there is reason to say Yes.


You can loosely throw around words like "measured", and I can tell you it's exactly what MacNamera said as our Vietnam strategy, but in the end it's not a logical argument. The only truly logical argument is to have a default NO position until proven otherwise.


Think of it this way, if you're developing a new drug, isn't it safer to disallow sales to the public until it is proven to be safe? Why be so emotionally open to saying Yes until the facts sell it for you? Right now all we know are the negative arguments because they are known facts - in other words, we don't have knowledge to believe otherwise. However they chose to release a vague AIP with lots of things missing.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-22-2018, 05:06 PM
Since when do facts care about your feelings? Who cares how something seems? Does being "calm" or the perception of it across written words even matter? Do you really evaluate a situation like that?


The hard NO guys are more adamant in your perception because it's far more logical to have a NO posture until there is reason to say Yes.


You can loosely throw around words like "measured", and I can tell you it's exactly what MacNamera said as our Vietnam strategy, but in the end it's not a logical argument. The only truly logical argument is to have a default NO position until proven otherwise.


Think of it this way, if you're developing a new drug, isn't it safer to disallow sales to the public until it is proven to be safe? Why be so emotionally open to saying Yes until the facts sell it for you? Right now all we know are the negative arguments because they are known facts - in other words, we don't have knowledge to believe otherwise. However they chose to release a vague AIP with lots of things missing.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

My point is that the open-minded voter is using more intellect than the emotional NO voter. I explained that, but you missed it.
Anger, frustration, and unrealistic entitlement are clouding your view Q.
Lets wait and see what the language states- Does that make any sense to you, or any hard NO guy?
Dont be the Emotion/Intellect person- Be the inverse Q.
I gotta go- Sleep well Q.

queue
05-22-2018, 05:17 PM
My point is that the open-minded voter is using more intellect than the emotional NO voter. I explained that, but you missed it.
Anger, frustration, and unrealistic entitlement are clouding your view Q.
Lets wait and see what the language states- Does that make any sense to you, or any hard NO guy?
Dont be the Emotion/Intellect person- Be the inverse Q.
I gotta go- Sleep well Q.


You really must learn to govern your emotions. You haven't presented any logical arguments beyond pure speculation. Who in their right mind would present the opposing party verification of your group's low morale to make them believe their weak offer will be accepted? Don't you see that you are simply being the voice of Tokyo Rose?



I realize that you must have extreme insecurities about your marketability as a professional pilot. This is why BJ hires so many unhireable pilots - they ALL talk just like you.



Are you too old? Are you too toxic to other airlines? Did you drink too much and get caught? Did you beat your wife too many times? Are you a brown-nosing CP or CP-in-training? There has to be some deeper underlying reason why your calculations make it too expensive for you to fight. You must have some kind of personal or professional weakness that makes you a liability to the team. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so quick to turn tail without fighting what a professional pilot is really worth.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dontsurf
05-22-2018, 05:41 PM
i don't know why this is even a thread, as the bullet points do not even use the phrase "industry leading scope". it says "industry standard language" on some scope issues.

P-3Bubba
05-22-2018, 06:27 PM
Ummm, last time I checked we feed our code shares thousands of customers on our gates with our AO and GO. So, what scope do we have now? NOTHING!!!!!!!!! No CBA = Who the F knows?

Where does the code share fly? ALL the transatlantic international routes that management dangles like carrots at EVERY job fair and interview session.

Vote YES. Any scope is better than no scope. And if you think we have a scope or codeshare clause today (DR) youíre wrong.

-Bubs

queue
05-22-2018, 07:25 PM
Ummm, last time I checked we feed our code shares thousands of customers on our gates with our AO and GO. So, what scope do we have now? NOTHING!!!!!!!!! No CBA = Who the F knows?

Where does the code share fly? ALL the transatlantic international routes that management dangles like carrots at EVERY job fair and interview session.

Vote YES. Any scope is better than no scope. And if you think we have a scope or codeshare clause today (DR) youíre wrong.

-Bubs


Don't vote Yes UNTIL you see Scope plus better terms than the entrails of the AIP. We can re-negotiate better.


Vote NO until you get a good reason to vote yes.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

PasserOGas
05-23-2018, 03:01 AM
No answer, without thorough info, is ever safe Q. This could go either way- the yes leaning guys seem to be more calm, and less adamant than the hard NO guys. That indicates a more measured response until information is complete. Measured is the safer way to proceed Q.


And you know this is true because he is a yes voter, thus more rational and less emotional. The ONLY reason one wouldn't want to vote in a sub standard AIP would be because of emotions. :rolleyes:

Just ask any yes voter.

pilotpayne
05-23-2018, 03:10 AM
You really must learn to govern your emotions. You haven't presented any logical arguments beyond pure speculation. Who in their right mind would present the opposing party verification of your group's low morale to make them believe their weak offer will be accepted? Don't you see that you are simply being the voice of Tokyo Rose?



I realize that you must have extreme insecurities about your marketability as a professional pilot. This is why BJ hires so many unhireable pilots - they ALL talk just like you.


I guess they hired you to balance things out. Lucky for us.

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 05:51 AM
SWA scope allows for codeshares based on certain stipulations and only with union approval. Ex: Cannot codeshare from Mexico or Canada ever but Europe/Asia is ok until the pax number reaches a certain amount and then the route must be flown by SWA pilots.

Sounds "industry leading", by a mile.

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 05:53 AM
Saying anything without looking is a guess.
Ill ask the same question to you; How much do you believe we will gain by voting no and how long are you willing to wait?
And do the gains of waiting outweigh the immediate improvements?
I honestly dont know- Do you? Maybe gambling is what we should do-Im open to all ideas, but so should you hard NO voters.

The post you quoted didn't say vote NO, niether did the thread in general.

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 05:54 AM
i don't know why this is even a thread, as the bullet points do not even use the phrase "industry leading scope". it says "industry standard language" on some scope issues.

It's a thread because I've read many times dudes saying we got industry leading scope. Not the union, APC and bluepilots dudes.

CaptCoolHand
05-23-2018, 06:30 AM
Sounds "industry leading", by a mile.

Right, and we don't know what ours says...

so the title of the thread should be we don't know if we have industry leading scope?

We do know it's better than AK. Presumably better than AA, DAL, and UAL. So we're #2 maybe?

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 06:41 AM
Right, and we don't know what ours says...

so the title of the thread should be we don't know if we have industry leading scope?

We do know it's better than AK. Presumably better than AA, DAL, and UAL. So we're #2 maybe?

I've agreed probably #2.

To leapfrog SWA JB would pretty much have to cancel most of the existing long haul codeshare flying. You really think they would ever agree to that?

I haven't seen any press releases cancelling or warning investors that they may need to cancel their codesharing agreements or JetSuiteX?

Have you?

Or are we doing the unicorn Kate Beckinsale thing again?

😁

CaptCoolHand
05-23-2018, 09:07 AM
I've agreed probably #2.

To leapfrog SWA JB would pretty much have to cancel most of the existing long haul codeshare flying. You really think they would ever agree to that?

I haven't seen any press releases cancelling or warning investors that they may need to cancel their codesharing agreements or JetSuiteX?

Have you?

Or are we doing the unicorn Kate Beckinsale thing again?

😁

She's on my list... the wife already signed off on it.

Bozo the pilot
05-23-2018, 09:14 AM
And you know this is true because he is a yes voter, thus more rational and less emotional. The ONLY reason one wouldn't want to vote in a sub standard AIP would be because of emotions. :rolleyes:

Just ask any yes voter.
I dont think you know what the word measured means Pog. You've been far away from it so far and have been angry. Anger is inhibiting your rationality. Good luck with that. :)

Bozo the pilot
05-23-2018, 09:19 AM
You really must learn to govern your emotions. You haven't presented any logical arguments beyond pure speculation. Who in their right mind would present the opposing party verification of your group's low morale to make them believe their weak offer will be accepted? Don't you see that you are simply being the voice of Tokyo Rose?



I realize that you must have extreme insecurities about your marketability as a professional pilot. This is why BJ hires so many unhireable pilots - they ALL talk just like you.



Are you too old? Are you too toxic to other airlines? Did you drink too much and get caught? Did you beat your wife too many times? Are you a brown-nosing CP or CP-in-training? There has to be some deeper underlying reason why your calculations make it too expensive for you to fight. You must have some kind of personal or professional weakness that makes you a liability to the team. Otherwise, you wouldn't be so quick to turn tail without fighting what a professional pilot is really worth.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

The toxicity that you exude speaks to you're lack of objectivity, which indicates a suspension of patience and intellect. As Ive said to pog, good luck with that. Feel free to pm me back or text:)
Just remain open to facts.

BeatNavy
05-23-2018, 09:29 AM
The toxicity that you exude speaks to you're lack of objectivity, which indicates a suspension of patience and intellect. As Ive said to pog, good luck with that. Feel free to pm me back or text:)
Just remain open to facts.

Goes both ways.

Fact: our proposed 100-140 seat rates are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than peer average, and too low for major airline pilots. And its a quarter of our pilot group, likely larger if/when we make CS300 orders to replace some aging 320s
Fact: our proposed bus rate is at the low end of peer average, getting worse each year with below industry standard COLA increases. Especially for being a blended 321 rate.

Fact: PS is a joke, and only applies when the company is making profits, so should be an easy win for the company. If they are hurting financially, they don't pay us PS that year.

Those are the negatives. I acknowledge there are many good items in the AIP. But there are some negatives, some areas which just fall short, which HAVE to be looked at and acknowledged, even by the super excited, just happy to have an AIP almost automatic yes guys.

hyperboy
05-23-2018, 09:33 AM
The post you quoted didn't say vote NO, niether did the thread in general.

Nor did me saying I was a YES vote but you spoke for me anyway?....Call me lets settle this up.

CaptCoolHand
05-23-2018, 09:58 AM
https://media.giphy.com/media/WZxb2MkzGuAtq/giphy.gif

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 11:43 AM
Nor did me saying I was a YES vote but you spoke for me anyway?....Call me lets settle this up.

Ok, sit by your phone, I'm going to call soon and risk my career. Should be ringing soon.

Bozo the pilot
05-23-2018, 12:35 PM
Goes both ways.

Fact: our proposed 100-140 seat rates are SIGNIFICANTLY lower than peer average, and too low for major airline pilots. And its a quarter of our pilot group, likely larger if/when we make CS300 orders to replace some aging 320s
Fact: our proposed bus rate is at the low end of peer average, getting worse each year with below industry standard COLA increases. Especially for being a blended 321 rate.

Fact: PS is a joke, and only applies when the company is making profits, so should be an easy win for the company. If they are hurting financially, they don't pay us PS that year.

Those are the negatives. I acknowledge there are many good items in the AIP. But there are some negatives, some areas which just fall short, which HAVE to be looked at and acknowledged, even by the super excited, just happy to have an AIP almost automatic yes guys.
As I have been saying Navy- I am WAITING to see the final language. I WILL VOTE NO if I dont like it. I capitaized it for you to save you going back to my prior threads. Cool?

Bozo the pilot
05-23-2018, 12:37 PM
The post you quoted didn't say vote NO, niether did the thread in general.

Its been said 20 times by a few here. You seem leaning NO but I trust you'll read the document when it's complete. Anything else would be just silly BD. right?

queue
05-23-2018, 01:09 PM
The toxicity that you exude speaks to you're lack of objectivity, which indicates a suspension of patience and intellect. As Ive said to pog, good luck with that. Feel free to pm me back or text:)
Just remain open to facts.


Like I said, I will never PM or text you, or especially call you. You can talk to me here, in front of others.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
05-23-2018, 01:37 PM
Its been said 20 times by a few here. You seem leaning NO but I trust you'll read the document when it's complete. Anything else would be just silly BD. right?

Correct. Need to read the full TA.

CaptCoolHand
05-23-2018, 03:04 PM
Ok. Can we please stop with the call me $#!t? Please.

Itís not going to happen. This is the Internet. If you wanna talk to someone go To a bar.

If it does, maybe youíre special.

Iím not here because i want to talk. Iím here to vent and make fun of others because Iím smarter than them. 😆

Hercbubba
05-23-2018, 04:22 PM
Ok. Can we please stop with the call me $#!t? Please.

Itís not going to happen. This is the Internet. If you wanna talk to someone go To a bar.

If it does, maybe youíre special.

Iím not here because i want to talk. Iím here to vent and make fun of others because Iím smarter than them. 😆
That is correct, Sir!

pilotpayne
05-23-2018, 05:54 PM
Ok. Can we please stop with the call me $#!t? Please.

Itís not going to happen. This is the Internet. If you wanna talk to someone go To a bar.

If it does, maybe youíre special.

Iím not here because i want to talk. Iím here to vent and make fun of others because Iím smarter than them. 😆

But you said you would call......

pilotpayne
05-23-2018, 06:03 PM
Correct. Need to read the full TA.

Thatís my position. The points ALONE and I would be a NO.
But if if if the language is what they are saying it would probably be enough for me to vote yes. But I am definitely not a for sure yes.
I want to see how many they will have to hire.
How this changes my day to day schedule?
How solid is scope?
How is our insurance?
Can they still play hotel games?
Can they still play reserve games?
While it might not be everything I want do we take care of the jr guys?
How long will it take to get this thing implemented, Iím not working under the current rules or an extended time while they ďtryĒ to turn the new stuff on.

Basically I want to know how many handcuffs we can put on the company.

Iíll vote no without hesitation just as I voted for the union.

BlueJetDork
05-23-2018, 07:01 PM
I thought the MEC would never deliver a TA to the pilot group that blows?

We heard that a zillion times.

pilotpayne
05-23-2018, 07:15 PM
I thought the MEC would never deliver a TA to the pilot group that blows?

We heard that a zillion times.

As you know we have not seen 95% of the info yet.

BlueJetDork
05-23-2018, 09:31 PM
As you know we have not seen 95% of the info yet.

Before you saw anything you were sure the MEC would never deliver a turd but after the bullet points you are "I am definitely not a for sure yes."

Hope is a dangerous drug in the wrong hands.

Klsytakesit
05-23-2018, 09:32 PM
Ok. Can we please stop with the call me $#!t? Please.

Itís not going to happen. This is the Internet. If you wanna talk to someone go To a bar.

If it does, maybe youíre special.

Iím not here because i want to talk. Iím here to vent and make fun of others because Iím smarter than them. 😆
Smarter than they are

Bluedriver
05-24-2018, 01:34 AM
Before you saw anything you were sure the MEC would never deliver a turd but after the bullet points you are "I am definitely not a for sure yes."

Hope is a dangerous drug in the wrong hands.

Seriously not picking on any one person, but many in this group needed to learn many lessons the hard way. Hopefully message received, and hopefully lessons remembered for negotiations 2.0 in 2022.

I have serious doubts, but would love to be proven wrong.

CaptCoolHand
05-24-2018, 02:27 AM
But you said you would call......

Sweetheart I say lots of things. Letís not ruin it. 😘

Bluedriver
05-24-2018, 04:14 AM
Sweetheart I say lots of things. Letís not ruin it. 😘

Man up and call him!

😁

Bozo the pilot
05-24-2018, 05:46 AM
Like I said, I will never PM or text you, or especially call you. You can talk to me here, in front of others.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Of course you wont Q. Never thought you'd have the stones anyway. :)

pilotpayne
05-24-2018, 05:57 AM
Before you saw anything you were sure the MEC would never deliver a turd but after the bullet points you are "I am definitely not a for sure yes."

Hope is a dangerous drug in the wrong hands.

Thanks so much snoopy I know what I said. Since I have worked under a CBA before I know exactly how important that language is and how it dictates everyday life on the line. We havenít even see the full reserve rules. I was simply saying that just on the points I wasnít a for sure yes. So no I donít know if itís a turd. Did you think the MEC would give us a crap contract? Oh actually I know they are just following the guidance from this pilot group. So yes they would. Hey I might be totally wrong again. There might be an opening for MEC chair you should put your name in. It would be nice to have someone who knows the answers to everything.

queue
05-24-2018, 07:57 AM
Of course you wont Q. Never thought you'd have the stones anyway. :)


I have the stones to use my brain not to play rhetorical games with tactically useless displays of teenage testosterone. Your weak psychological manipulation has no effect on me.







This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
05-24-2018, 08:33 AM
Smarter than they are

No one likes you Grammar police! take your smarty pants somewhere else.

stupid english

Bozo the pilot
05-24-2018, 11:11 AM
Smarter than they are

Smarter than they.
The "are" is understood genius. :rolleyes:

queue
05-24-2018, 08:11 PM
As you know we have not seen 95% of the info yet.


But the 5% we already got is not that great...


I doubt the contract language will introduce some new miracles they didn't already advertise. BeatNavy put forth a great analysis of the already substandard pay, and that is just from the AIP.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
05-25-2018, 04:08 AM
But the 5% we already got is not that great...


I doubt the contract language will introduce some new miracles they didn't already advertise. BeatNavy put forth a great analysis of the already substandard pay, and that is just from the AIP.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

and I doubt anything will ever make you happy.........

Bluedriver
05-25-2018, 12:16 PM
and I doubt anything will ever make you happy.........

And I think there is nothing JB could do and there is no compensation too low that would make you dissatisfied.

hyperboy
05-25-2018, 03:05 PM
And I think there is nothing JB could do and there is no compensation too low that would make you dissatisfied.


You don't know me therefore you have no idea what you are talking about. I left my name and number but you are a coward and would rather speak for someone you don't even know.

You are a sad little boy

Bluedriver
05-25-2018, 03:22 PM
you don't know me therefore you have no idea what you are talking about. I left my name and number but you are a coward and would rather speak for someone you don't even know.

You are a sad little boy

I know what you write and what choose to defend. Tells me all I need to know.

🍿🍿🍿🍺🍺🍺....

seekingblue
05-25-2018, 04:01 PM
But the 5% we already got is not that great...


I doubt the contract language will introduce some new miracles they didn't already advertise. BeatNavy put forth a great analysis of the already substandard pay, and that is just from the AIP.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Queue-

I'd like to get your take on the Union blast mail that was sent out. Will you wait for the final language before passing judgement?

As I said in the other thread, I think the Language better be freaking amazing, because the union sure is selling it.

seekingblue
05-25-2018, 04:02 PM
I know what you write and what choose to defend. Tells me all I need to know.

🍿🍿🍿🍺🍺🍺....

This place is almost as good as Bluepilots.

queue
05-25-2018, 11:11 PM
You don't know me therefore you have no idea what you are talking about. I left my name and number but you are a coward and would rather speak for someone you don't even know.

You are a sad little boy

HB, what would be the utility of talking to you outside of this forum? Why do you persist in personal attacks in a weak effort to exercise paperback psychology to get people to respond to you? Are you attempting to de-anonymize people?

Incidentally, if you're willing to call people cowards, what have you ever done other than show up to work to make you any better?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-25-2018, 11:18 PM
Queue-

I'd like to get your take on the Union blast mail that was sent out. Will you wait for the final language before passing judgement?

As I said in the other thread, I think the Language better be freaking amazing, because the union sure is selling it.

Well I can pass judgment on the AIP and it is grossly substandard. As to the final contract language, obviously I don't know yet. However, knowing that they have rejected many other previous inputs in the past, I am not hopeful of a sufficiently thorough legal language.

The union is selling it because their egos are on the line. They have spent a lot of time on this and they don't want to be seen as failures. But that's not my problem, if anything is substandard, it will be an automatic No. I don't believe for a second that the AIP is the absolute best we could have gotten. Maybe it is the best that they could have gotten but there are many other people at this company that could have done better than them. In fact, the battle is not over yet. We could stage informational pickets tomorrow at strategic locations to ratchet up force again. In my opinion, this union has made several severe tactical and strategic mistakes.

So yes, like the Democrats and Obama care, they pretty much have no choice but to sell it. However we have a choice in rejecting it. We must not except mediocrity under any circumstance.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

embraerjetpilot
05-26-2018, 02:50 AM
Well I can pass judgment on the AIP and it is grossly substandard. As to the final contract language, obviously I don't know yet. However, knowing that they have rejected many other previous inputs in the past, I am not hopeful of a sufficiently thorough legal language.

The union is selling it because their egos are on the line. They have spent a lot of time on this and they don't want to be seen as failures. But that's not my problem, if anything is substandard, it will be an automatic No. I don't believe for a second that the AIP is the absolute best we could have gotten. Maybe it is the best that they could have gotten but there are many other people at this company that could have done better than them. In fact, the battle is not over yet. We could stage informational pickets tomorrow at strategic locations to ratchet up force again. In my opinion, this union has made several severe tactical and strategic mistakes.

So yes, like the Democrats and Obama care, they pretty much have no choice but to sell it. However we have a choice in rejecting it. We must not except mediocrity under any circumstance.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Or like Trump trying to sell his tax increase

CaptCoolHand
05-26-2018, 03:51 AM
Or like Trump trying to sell his tax increase

And the local racists steps up for commentary.

embraerjetpilot
05-26-2018, 03:55 AM
And the local racists steps up for commentary.

Wow. What world are you living in?

seekingblue
05-26-2018, 04:04 AM
guys-


Can we keep the politics out of this? Lets just keep this website for personal attacks.:D

CaptCoolHand
05-26-2018, 04:40 AM
Wow. What world are you living in?
Oh sorry I thought thatís how all these political pundits end.

Since we donít agree youíre a rascist?

I thought weíd just get it out of the way and move on.

queue
05-26-2018, 08:49 AM
Wow. What world are you living in?


The Democrats (the left) are the racist ones. They believe in racial outcomes. That IS the definition of racism. Even the moderate ones want to see outcomes tied to race and gender. Their fringe wants "no white" safe spaces. Sadly, that is not a joke.



https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/aeman-ansari/ethnic-safe-spaces_b_6897176.html


That's why Democrats, despite having all the racial/gender numbers in their favor during their regime, did absolutely nothing to help the ones they claimed are victims. The simply wanted more believers for the Democrat plantation. They never wanted any minority group to succeed - they merely want voters. Now they are so desperate that California is letting illegals vote while NY just allowed criminals to vote. Chicago is giving people a city ID card which is usable as ID for voting. So yes, the liberal left Democrats are Racist and Sexist.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytSZ851hLRc




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
05-26-2018, 07:17 PM
Well I can pass judgment on the AIP and it is grossly substandard. As to the final contract language, obviously I don't know yet. However, knowing that they have rejected many other previous inputs in the past, I am not hopeful of a sufficiently thorough legal language.

The union is selling it because their egos are on the line. They have spent a lot of time on this and they don't want to be seen as failures. But that's not my problem, if anything is substandard, it will be an automatic No. I don't believe for a second that the AIP is the absolute best we could have gotten. Maybe it is the best that they could have gotten but there are many other people at this company that could have done better than them. In fact, the battle is not over yet. We could stage informational pickets tomorrow at strategic locations to ratchet up force again. In my opinion, this union has made several severe tactical and strategic mistakes.

So yes, like the Democrats and Obama care, they pretty much have no choice but to sell it. However we have a choice in rejecting it. We must not except mediocrity under any circumstance.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Does it make you angry that your vote only counts once? Majority will determine not Q. Just think if I was a YES and you were A NO it would cancel you out? Donít assume the way I am voting cause I have not read anything a all!!!!!

PasserOGas
05-26-2018, 08:00 PM
Does it make you angry that your vote only counts once? Majority will determine not Q. Just think if I was a YES and you were A NO it would cancel you out? Donít assume the way I am voting cause I have not read anything a all!!!!!

C'mon man... like you would ever vote no.

Baba Yaga
05-26-2018, 08:01 PM
Please guys do not use leading and Jetblew on the same sentence.

hyperboy
05-26-2018, 08:11 PM
C'mon man... like you would ever vote no.

Quite an assumption for something I have not read. Call me rather than assume.

PasserOGas
05-27-2018, 04:00 AM
Quite an assumption for something I have not read. Call me rather than assume.

Not really. You thought it was a great place before the bullet points. If you were so happy then, this will be an easy yes for you.

queue
05-27-2018, 04:16 AM
Or like Trump trying to sell his tax increase

You mean the increases to just the socialist states who were being subsidized by the states who couldn't deduct SALT?

Blame yourself and then your local Democrats (and RINOs) for creating a welfare state.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations

queue
05-27-2018, 04:18 AM
Quite an assumption for something I have not read. Call me rather than assume.

Why don't you just talk here?

Why do you want people to call you?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations

Bluedriver
05-27-2018, 05:30 AM
Why don't you just talk here?

Why do you want people to call you?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations

Because he wants to get us fired! It's soooo obvious.

I've asked him several times to just simply defend his opinion/position with reasons, then he just goes silent and starts the coward call-me routine.

Bluedriver
05-27-2018, 05:31 AM
Not really. You thought it was a great place before the bullet points. If you were so happy then, this will be an easy yes for you.

Exactly, he's a complete #### show.

embraerjetpilot
05-27-2018, 05:40 AM
Yeah, you have a welfare state mostly because you have taken away peoples right to collectively ask for a living wage.


I donít remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage

I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs.

I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent.

Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year.

Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts.

queue
05-27-2018, 05:50 AM
Because he wants to get us fired! It's soooo obvious.

I've asked him several times to just simply defend his opinion/position with reasons, then he just goes silent and starts the coward call-me routine.

Still waiting for his excuse....


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 06:04 AM
Yeah, you have a welfare state mostly because you have taken away peoples right to collectively ask for a living wage.


I donít remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage

I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs.

I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent.

Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year.

Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts.
:rolleyes: Please- We can watch MSNBC for this analysis.

hilltopflyer
05-27-2018, 07:57 AM
Yeah, you have a welfare state mostly because you have taken away peoples right to collectively ask for a living wage.


I donít remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage

I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs.

I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent.

Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year.

Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts.

I'm sorry but minimum wage isn't meant for working adults. It was meant for my first job in high school working at McDonald's, etc not Mom and dad. Do something with your life to get a good job. I don't want to pay for the 3 dollar menu because the burger flippers think they deserve 20 bucks an hour. What's really funny is how in the states that raised it most businesses just don't hire full time employees so they don't pay health care and other benefits.... interesting how that works.

BeatNavy
05-27-2018, 08:25 AM
Yeah, you have a welfare state mostly because you have taken away peoples right to collectively ask for a living wage.


I don’t remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage

I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs.

I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent.

Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year.

Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts.

I don’t like engaging in political posts, but I’ll make an exception. We have a welfare state because of all the welfare we hand out and the ease with which people get it.

I remember the right arguing against Obamacare, and the left saying we have to pass it to see what’s in it. Why have healthcare costs skyrocketed in the last few years? Oh yeah. Obamacare.

Know what happens if minimum wage goes up? The costs of everything else goes up because labor costs go up, and everyone is just as poor as they were before...actually more people are poor because the costs of living have gone up, but only the bottom wages go up with a minimum wage raise. Those who were previously working hard to earn more than minimum wage are making the same as they were before with the raise, so now that everything is more expensive, they are more poor in relative terms. That’s called inflation. And minimum wage jobs aren’t meant to be careers. In a land of opportunity like America, if you choose to do a min wage job your whole life, that is entirely on you and your life decisions.

You want the politicians to lower oil prices? If you think our politicians can just wave a magic wand and change the price of oil, you should probably take an economics class. Maybe you’d be a better fit in one of those countries with government controlled prices and “free” healthcare. Maybe freedom and capitalism isn’t for you?

Now back to ranting about the AIP and our great OTP.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 08:31 AM
I donít like engaging in political posts, but Iíll make an exception. We have a welfare state because of all the welfare we hand out and the ease with which people get it.

I remember the right arguing against Obamacare, and the left saying we have to pass it to see whatís in it. Why have healthcare costs skyrocketed in the last few years? Oh yeah. Obamacare.

Know what happens if minimum wage goes up? The costs of everything else goes up because labor costs go up, and everyone is just as poor as they were before...actually more people are poor because the costs of living have gone up, but only the bottom wages go up with a minimum wage raise. Those who were previously working hard to earn more than minimum wage are making the same as they were before with the raise, so now that everything is more expensive, they are more poor in relative terms. Thatís called inflation. And minimum wage jobs arenít meant to be careers. In a land of opportunity like America, if you choose to do a min wage job your whole life, that is entirely on you and your life decisions.

You want the politicians to lower oil prices? If you think our politicians can just wave a magic wand and change the price of oil, you should probably take an economics class. Maybe youíd be a better fit in one of those countries with government controlled prices and ďfreeĒ healthcare. Maybe freedom and capitalism isnít for you?

Now back to ranting about the AIP and our great OTP.

Great post Navy.

WhistlePig
05-27-2018, 08:36 AM
I donít like engaging in political posts, but Iíll make an exception. We have a welfare state because of all the welfare we hand out and the ease with which people get it.

I remember the right arguing against Obamacare, and the left saying we have to pass it to see whatís in it. Why have healthcare costs skyrocketed in the last few years? Oh yeah. Obamacare.

I love it when former military members and retirees argue against what they perceive as baby steps to single payer medical care: After enjoying the benefits of socialized medicine while in the military. The irony is eye watering.

queue
05-27-2018, 08:52 AM
Yeah, you have a welfare state mostly because you have taken away peoples right to collectively ask for a living wage.


I donít remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage

I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs.

I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent.

Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year.

Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts.


I don't fundamentally disagree with you on the notion that people should be paid a fair wage. However, the means to achieve that is where conservatives disagree with the left. Note: I don't speak for the "establishment right" which includes Neo-conservatives (warmongers) and Republicans in Name Only (RINO). I'm a Constitutionalist/Libertarian that doesn't believe in the false left/right paradigm. To me the Republicans and Democrats are really part of the same time. Both are anti-freedom, anti-free speech, pro-big government, and anti-Constitution. However, the "left" goes several steps further and they fundamentally are fascist authoritarians. That's why they silence free speech (e.g. silencing berkeley speeches using ANTIFA, shadowbanning on Twitter/Google/Facebook). That being said, the Left wants government control over everything. They want to endlessly tax the Have's and give it to the Have-Not's. They want to destroy the middle class altogether (most of the 1% rich elite ARE Democrats). Their methods simply don't work. Every single Left experiment with wealth re-distribution (theft through taxation) has been a tragic failure in every sense. Look at NYC, Chicago, SFO, Los Angeles. These Democrat run cities are worse than 3rd world countries. Chicago is a bankrupt war-zone, NYC is a dump (and a war-zone), and SFO is a drug junkie/homeless shelter. L.A. has a miles-long tent city with all the Californian's moving out. No wonder it has one of the lowest, if not THE lowest, quality of life. I would have *some* degree of respect for the left if some of their ideas work, but NONE of them do.



"I donít remember one republican ever arginine for a livable wage"


Because it's not a "right". It's your personal responsibility in a free economy to stand up for your profession, to be a market force, and to negotiate as a responsible adult. You can't force people to give you jobs and "fair wages" despite what Communist college professors teach. The best way to get a living wage is to be smart, do well in school, don't have children out of wedlock, don't do drugs or any chemical dependency, and don't break any laws. There is nothing but opportunity out there for people who are motivated enough to seek it.



"I dot. Remember one republican arguing for decent healthcare costs."


The best way to achieve decent healthcare is to cut government intervention or pass GOOD laws. Laws are sometimes written by the elites and corporations to benefit them. Did you notice that Trump & company just got the "Right to Try" law? That's where you can bypass the FDA to try something experimental if you're going to die anyway. This has really opened up the standard of care for people. Contrast that to socialized healthcare in Europe (your model) where kids die because the NHS won't let the kid get treatment since it's not in their standard of care, even though it could save that kid's life. Parents have no rights to get their own child healthcare outside of EU. In other recent news, a guy has one shorter leg than the other and instead of getting treatment here in the U.S. to make one leg longer, socialized medicine's solution is to amputate the leg. Socialized healthcare is not cheaper, it's actually far far more expensive and always results in substantially lower quality. Go live in Cuba or Venezuela and tell me how it went.





"I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent. "


This bothers me. Actually it bothers Trump a lot which is why he is constantly attacking big-pharma. The way to attack that kind of price increase is to firstly get rid of all government subsidies at the local, state, and federal level. That way the market has complete authority over a company rather than being shielded by corrupt government (mostly Democrat). Then, it's up to the consumer to inform themselves and to exert market forces on them. Nothing is stopping a competitor from inventing a comparable drug or treatment for insulin. Right now, there is a huge barrier to entry because of laws passed by big corporations through Democrats to establish a high barrier to entry.


"Not one fussing when the cost of oil has gone up 30 percent in the last year. "


And yet democrats and the left fight Trump when he is working to reduce costs of fuel by allowing domestic energy manufacturing? Again, nothing is stopping you from inventing a free-energy device or a more efficient photovoltaic cell. I'm not a fan of using oil for fuel myself but using government control to manipulate the market always ends in further pain.




"Your so busy watching Fox News you actually vote for people who think you should be paid in peanuts."


I guess you don't read ANY of my posts. I do watch Fox News because it is substantially more accurate than all the leftist media out there which is plain dishonest and an extension of the Democratic party. However, even Fox is establishment and not truly conservative. I also watch MSNBC and CNN which is why I am aware of their lies and blatant propaganda mission. What's really concerning is how many young people and leftists believe the marketing rhetoric of CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, PBS, etc. They are so willfully ignorant that they honestly believe Rachel Madcow and the rest of the actors they have. You don't even have to like Trump to realize that those leftist "news" outlets are outright lying about him. For example, Trump wants to stop illegal immigration. Clinton said the exact same things but they won't attack the Clintons.







This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

BeatNavy
05-27-2018, 08:55 AM
I love it when former military members and retirees argue against what they perceive as baby steps to single payer medical care: After enjoying the benefits of socialized medicine while in the military. The irony is eye watering.

I saw firsthand the inefficiency and waste caused by “socialized” medicine. But it’s necessary for the military. Not for the country. And I kind of benefitted from it while in, though had no real issues, so if I didn’t have “free” healthcare, it wouldn’t have really mattered. Nor did I have a choice in the matter. And I’m not retired, so I’ve experienced both sides. Thanks for your concern though. Go argue on a military or healthcare forum. Or bluepilots. Take the political garbage away from here.

queue
05-27-2018, 08:57 AM
I love it when former military members and retirees argue against what they perceive as baby steps to single payer medical care: After enjoying the benefits of socialized medicine while in the military. The irony is eye watering.


Can you explain why you think TriCare is socialized medicine?





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-27-2018, 08:59 AM
I donít like engaging in political posts, but Iíll make an exception. We have a welfare state because of all the welfare we hand out and the ease with which people get it.

I remember the right arguing against Obamacare, and the left saying we have to pass it to see whatís in it. Why have healthcare costs skyrocketed in the last few years? Oh yeah. Obamacare.

Know what happens if minimum wage goes up? The costs of everything else goes up because labor costs go up, and everyone is just as poor as they were before...actually more people are poor because the costs of living have gone up, but only the bottom wages go up with a minimum wage raise. Those who were previously working hard to earn more than minimum wage are making the same as they were before with the raise, so now that everything is more expensive, they are more poor in relative terms. Thatís called inflation. And minimum wage jobs arenít meant to be careers. In a land of opportunity like America, if you choose to do a min wage job your whole life, that is entirely on you and your life decisions.

You want the politicians to lower oil prices? If you think our politicians can just wave a magic wand and change the price of oil, you should probably take an economics class. Maybe youíd be a better fit in one of those countries with government controlled prices and ďfreeĒ healthcare. Maybe freedom and capitalism isnít for you?

Now back to ranting about the AIP and our great OTP.




Let's Vote NO, and bargain for our worth as professional pilots.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 09:13 AM
Let's Vote NO, and bargain for our worth as professional pilots.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Vote NO to what exactly?

BeatNavy
05-27-2018, 09:24 AM
Vote NO to what exactly?

Below average rates and COLA? (Throw in PS/SB for good measure).

Guessing you are trying to make a point since we donít yet have a TA on which to vote. Iíll counter that we clearly have an AIP, with many knowns on which comparisons can be made, and the standard progression is for that AIP to become a TA that we will vote on in short order. But you knew that.

queue
05-27-2018, 09:44 AM
Vote NO to what exactly?

What BeatNavy said.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 09:47 AM
Below average rates and COLA? (Throw in PS/SB for good measure).

Guessing you are trying to make a point since we donít yet have a TA on which to vote. Iíll counter that we clearly have an AIP, with many knowns on which comparisons can be made, and the standard progression is for that AIP to become a TA that we will vote on in short order. But you knew that.

Too many unknowns to decide on my vote right now. But I do hope your recruiting efforts go well guys. ;)

queue
05-27-2018, 09:50 AM
Too many unknowns to decide on my vote right now. But I do hope your recruiting efforts go well guys. ;)

No need to recruit. Facts speak for themselves.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 09:54 AM
No need to recruit. Facts speak for themselves.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

This is circular Q. Tell us the facts about scope/work rules...
Does anyone have them? I missed the release of the full T/A.

queue
05-27-2018, 09:57 AM
This is circular Q. Tell us the facts about scope/work rules...
Does anyone have them? I missed the release of the full T/A.

Did you read the AIP? Are you telling me the contract language will contradict and improve upon the AIP? The AIP is supposed to be the best parts! The numerical rates for pay alone are substandard.

I'm not trading pay for rules, or vice versa. No false choices.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

pilotpayne
05-27-2018, 10:10 AM
Did you read the AIP? Are you telling me the contract language will contradict and improve upon the AIP? The AIP is supposed to be the best parts! The numerical rates for pay alone are substandard.

I'm not trading pay for rules, or vice versa. No false choices.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Did you read the AIP? We have bullet points I donít think that is the totality of the AIP.

CaptCoolHand
05-27-2018, 10:16 AM
Did you read the AIP? Are you telling me the contract language will contradict and improve upon the AIP? The AIP is supposed to be the best parts! The numerical rates for pay alone are substandard.

I'm not trading pay for rules, or vice versa. No false choices.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Has nothing to do with best or worst parts. It's simply bullet points.

embraerjetpilot
05-27-2018, 10:59 AM
"I do not remember one of them screaming when the cost of insulin was raised 3000 percent. "


This bothers me. Actually it bothers Trump a lot which is why he is constantly attacking big-pharma. The way to attack that kind of price increase is to firstly get rid of all government subsidies at the local, state, and federal level. That way the market has complete authority over a company rather than being shielded by corrupt government (mostly Democrat). Then, it's up to the consumer to inform themselves and to exert market forces on them. Nothing is stopping a competitor from inventing a comparable drug or treatment for insulin. Right now, there is a huge barrier to entry because of laws passed by big corporations through Democrats to establish a high barrier to entry.

It bothers him a lot? Bull****...Look who he appointed to head the HHS?

Im gonna vote yes because I wouldn't want anyones airplane ticket to cost a few more pennies..

BeatNavy
05-27-2018, 11:11 AM
Im gonna vote yes because I wouldn't want anyones airplane ticket to cost a few more pennies..

I think this has to be a troll post. You are willing to work for less than your peers to subsidize ticket prices for customers? Should I remind you that instead of investing $1.25 billion into infrastructure, airplanes, employees, or customers, jetblue bought back $1.25 billion in stock, for the sole purpose of raising the share price and executive bonuses? They don't have to raise prices a single cent, even if they paid us Delta + $5. We are profitable enough, the company can afford to pay us industry leading! But we didn't even achieve industry average with this AIP (with regards to rates and raises). Don't worry guy, Timmy's Disney trip won't be affected by your wages, neither will his airfare on jetblue. Why don't you set up a charity that pays $10 towards every jetblue ticket? Just don't drag me into your unwise decisions.

CaptCoolHand
05-27-2018, 11:24 AM
All he does is troll. Here and on BP. Heís a drive by political troller. He adds nothing to the conversation.
I think this has to be a troll post. You are willing to work for less than your peers to subsidize ticket prices for customers? Should I remind you that instead of investing $1.25 billion into infrastructure, airplanes, employees, or customers, jetblue bought back $1.25 billion in stock, for the sole purpose of raising the share price and executive bonuses? They don't have to raise prices a single cent, even if they paid us Delta + $5. We are profitable enough, the company can afford to pay us industry leading! But we didn't even achieve industry average with this AIP (with regards to rates and raises). Don't worry guy, Timmy's Disney trip won't be affected by your wages, neither will his airfare on jetblue. Why don't you set up a charity that pays $10 towards every jetblue ticket? Just don't drag me into your unwise decisions.

CaptCoolHand
05-27-2018, 11:28 AM
Fact is you only have a fraction of the facts. The only one trying to sell anyone anything here is you.

No need to recruit. Facts speak for themselves.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

jstyle13
05-27-2018, 12:13 PM
Omg. 3 full pages of dyed in the wool conservatives and liberals yapping about politics. And when you thought the threads couldnít get any worse.....wrong.

hilltopflyer
05-27-2018, 12:18 PM
I think this might be first contract ever where the bullet points aren't that great. Usually they are the best of the best of the contract then the rest disappoints you. I'm scared what the full language will say if I'm this disappointed in the bullet points.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 12:32 PM
Omg. 3 full pages of dyed in the wool conservatives and liberals yapping about politics. And when you thought the threads couldnít get any worse.....wrong.

So why you here? Read the bulletpoints.

BeatNavy
05-27-2018, 12:55 PM
Too many unknowns to decide on my vote right now. But I do hope your recruiting efforts go well guys. ;)

Hardly "recruiting efforts." This is a forum. Def: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. I welcome and look forward any debate/discourse for/against any facts or viewpoints I (or anyone else) share. Doesn't mean anyone is recruiting one way or another. I'm undecided on my vote. This debate, whether it is here, in person, in a cockpit, in a crew room, etc., is necessary to help get a full understanding of exactly what all this means for us and our families, and how it compares to our peers. If this was a 100% pro ALPA, or pro company echo chamber, nothing outside of the talking points would ever get brought to light.

Bozo the pilot
05-27-2018, 01:25 PM
Hardly "recruiting efforts." This is a forum. Def: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. I welcome and look forward any debate/discourse for/against any facts or viewpoints I (or anyone else) share. Doesn't mean anyone is recruiting one way or another. I'm undecided on my vote. This debate, whether it is here, in person, in a cockpit, in a crew room, etc., is necessary to help get a full understanding of exactly what all this means for us and our families, and how it compares to our peers. If this was a 100% pro ALPA, or pro company echo chamber, nothing outside of the talking points would ever get brought to light.
Yes but you and Q are pushing a NO vote without reading the complete contract. I would expect you, as intelligent people, to wait for the information without impulsively deciding.
Post what you will, but expect some pushback from those of us who will read and THEN decide.
Enjoy:)

CaptCoolHand
05-27-2018, 02:06 PM
Hardly "recruiting efforts." This is a forum. Def: a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged. I welcome and look forward any debate/discourse for/against any facts or viewpoints I (or anyone else) share. Doesn't mean anyone is recruiting one way or another. I'm undecided on my vote. This debate, whether it is here, in person, in a cockpit, in a crew room, etc., is necessary to help get a full understanding of exactly what all this means for us and our families, and how it compares to our peers. If this was a 100% pro ALPA, or pro company echo chamber, nothing outside of the talking points would ever get brought to light.
I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately, the platform is NO NO NO NO and youíre a ***** if you vote yes.

Thatís not a medium.

Itís just as dumb as yes yes yes.

queue
05-27-2018, 04:26 PM
I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately, the platform is NO NO NO NO and youíre a ***** if you vote yes.

Thatís not a medium.

Itís just as dumb as yes yes yes.


Let's see if the contract language fixes the substandard rates.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hilltopflyer
05-27-2018, 04:36 PM
Let's see if the contract language fixes the substandard rates. And coa





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Fixed it fir ya

hyperboy
05-27-2018, 04:41 PM
Not really. You thought it was a great place before the bullet points. If you were so happy then, this will be an easy yes for you.

Just like you that will vote YES and then tell everyone you voted no with no proof of how you voted or who you are on the board. You get to hide.....twice!

Yay for militant POG!

PasserOGas
05-27-2018, 06:01 PM
Just like you that will vote YES and then tell everyone you voted no with no proof of how you voted or who you are on the board. You get to hide.....twice!

Yay for militant POG!

Believe me. I am just as militant in person.

pilotpayne
05-27-2018, 08:07 PM
I agree with this 100%. Unfortunately, the platform is NO NO NO NO and youíre a ***** if you vote yes.

Thatís not a medium.

Itís just as dumb as yes yes yes.

Bingo.

That is why this is all stupid. As you said bullet points are exactly that bullet points.

What we fail to look at is this is a very unique contract as itís our first one. So we have no real idea what is in it. When other airlines come out with a TA those bullet points tend to be the highlights because most likely they are only working on a few changes and everything else is a ďknownĒ and accounted for. You pretty much know how the new rates will change your pay check. As an example My FO on this trip was telling me from what he understood the DRO will now automatically be published in the early morning. An instant snapshot no more waiting till 12 and delaying it. That wasnít in the bullet points but if true that is a huge help to reserves. Iím not saying we should vote yes on that but to just wait and look at the contract as a whole.

Blue Dude
05-27-2018, 08:29 PM
I love it when former military members and retirees argue against what they perceive as baby steps to single payer medical care: After enjoying the benefits of socialized medicine while in the military. The irony is eye watering.

VA medical is an earned benefit. They don't offer it to anyone who demands it for merely existing. Irony fail.

hyperboy
05-28-2018, 04:49 AM
Believe me. I am just as militant in person.

Good to hear call me. We have. A lot more in common than you think.

Bluedriver
05-28-2018, 04:53 AM
Good to hear call me. We have. A lot more in common than you think.

You are such F### show.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:25 AM
Im gonna vote yes because I wouldn't want anyones airplane ticket to cost a few more pennies..


Did you make a typographic error or do you really want to trade your professional price point for a passenger cost discount?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:32 AM
Fact is you only have a fraction of the facts. The only one trying to sell anyone anything here is you.


I'm trying to raise your standards and improve the profession. The problem is that many BJ pilots are so hopelessly entrenched in The Matrix that you've learned to love your servitude, and you even defend it. Your ego prohibits you to look at data objectively and across the spectrum of all industries. You guys live in your little RJ/E190 world where you continually bend over and ask for more. If you read what I've said, my goal is to liberate your mind from the shackles of having a choice of 'A or B' but not 'A and B'. If you guys had more knowledge, you wouldn't accept these false choices. It's amazing how many BJ pilots are perpetually WRONG. How many times did it take to get ALPA on board? Didn't they all defend BJ and its slumlord practices? Those faulty arguments don't work anymore. You guys have been wrong far too many times.



And no, I'm not on BPs since it's not anonymous.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:34 AM
Fact is you only have a fraction of the facts. The only one trying to sell anyone anything here is you.


Yes, we only have a fraction of the facts.


However, those AIP bullet points are still facts, no? Are you saying that somehow the full AIP and contract will nullify the existing bullet points and come out with a new HIGHER pay scale that isn't Alaska+1 but more like Delta-1?


What I already know is a no-go. Vote NO.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:37 AM
Omg. 3 full pages of dyed in the wool conservatives and liberals yapping about politics. And when you thought the threads couldnít get any worse.....wrong.


You do realize that politics and business are inseparable right?


If you understood this better perhaps we wouldn't be bound by an RLA that benefits corporations so much.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hyperboy
05-28-2018, 05:38 AM
You are such F### show.

Was not even talking to you.....

You are the one that hides little person. You know who I am. You are a little tinkerbell who likes to wave her wand and be in charge of ďBlue driverĒ world

This is not fantasy this is real life.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:41 AM
Good to hear call me. We have. A lot more in common than you think.


Why should anyone CALL YOU?



What is the purpose of people calling you versus talking here?


Are you trying to get people's identification?




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 05:46 AM
Was not even talking to you.....

You are the one that hides little person. You know who I am. You are a little tinkerbell who likes to wave her wand and be in charge of ďBlue driverĒ world

This is not fantasy this is real life.


Hyperboy, you can accuse people all day. No one cares about you, least of all me. Read those words carefully.... I'm refer to you as a personality.


I care about ideas. Instead of making personal attacks which accomplish nothing, perhaps you should debate things in the marketplace of ideas. You are acting exactly like a leftist liberal that cries racism instead of talking the issues with logical context. Real life is letting the better ideas win, not just crying wolf saying everyone is in fantasy land. Your recent posts are only indicative of someone who can't offer logical arguments.


You've yet to explain to me how the final language will fix the substandard rates (Alaska+1) in the AIP bulletpoints.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 06:03 AM
Hyperboy, you can accuse people all day. No one cares about you, least of all me. Read those words carefully.... I'm refer to you as a personality.


I care about ideas. Instead of making personal attacks which accomplish nothing, perhaps you should debate things in the marketplace of ideas. You are acting exactly like a leftist liberal that cries racism instead of talking the issues with logical context. Real life is letting the better ideas win, not just crying wolf saying everyone is in fantasy land. Your recent posts are only indicative of someone who can't offer logical arguments.


You've yet to explain to me how the final language will fix the substandard rates (Alaska+1) in the AIP bulletpoints.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Obsessing over rates is a true regional mindset Q.;)
Let us know what your demands are again..

queue
05-28-2018, 06:13 AM
Obsessing over rates is a true regional mindset Q.;)
Let us know what your demands are again..


You're putting words into my mouth. I will say it again, I want A and B. Perhaps if you read my posts you would see that I won't accept Pay over Rules or Rules over Pay. I will only accept Pay and Rules.


I won't accept any false assumptions why we can't have both.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
05-28-2018, 06:36 AM
Why should anyone CALL YOU?



What is the purpose of people calling you versus talking here?


Are you trying to get people's identification?




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Yes! That's what it is and that's why he won't answer your question!

Bluedriver
05-28-2018, 06:37 AM
Was not even talking to you.....

You are the one that hides little person. You know who I am. You are a little tinkerbell who likes to wave her wand and be in charge of ďBlue driverĒ world

This is not fantasy this is real life.

Yes, in "real life" you are a F### show.

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 06:45 AM
You're putting words into my mouth. I will say it again, I want A and B. Perhaps if you read my posts you would see that I won't accept Pay over Rules or Rules over Pay. I will only accept Pay and Rules.


I won't accept any false assumptions why we can't have both.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
So you want it all? I think that's great, albeit unrealistic.
You should definitely run for an MEC position or lobby to be a negotiator after we vote no on this TA or start the process for the next one.
Good luck Q. You may be perfect for it.

pilotpayne
05-28-2018, 06:50 AM
You're putting words into my mouth. I will say it again, I want A and B. Perhaps if you read my posts you would see that I won't accept Pay over Rules or Rules over Pay. I will only accept Pay and Rules.


I won't accept any false assumptions why we can't have both.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

I may be wrong but you seem to say that unless pay and work rules are industry leading you are a no.

That I see as a false choice.

There is a scenario where you could make 20 bucks less in pay rates than Delta but have work rules that end up making you more money. It just happened to me where they changed my sked and I got done outside my foot print. Itís a nice chunk of cash for just getting done a bit later.

You could also get paid the highest and have work rules, lack of cx pay or half DH pay that would have you making less than someone with a lower published rate.

I think that is where we keep hitting a wall. Nobody knows the real value of the pay rates until we see all of the language.


Or we could go for industry leading in everything but name one CBA that is leading in everything. Just seems unrealistic. We can go for that but it certainly isnít the norm.

todd1200
05-28-2018, 07:24 AM
I may be wrong but you seem to say that unless pay and work rules are industry leading you are a no.

That I see as a false choice.

There is a scenario where you could make 20 bucks less in pay rates than Delta but have work rules that end up making you more money. It just happened to me where they changed my sked and I got done outside my foot print. Itís a nice chunk of cash for just getting done a bit later.

You could also get paid the highest and have work rules, lack of cx pay or half DH pay that would have you making less than someone with a lower published rate.

I think that is where we keep hitting a wall. Nobody knows the real value of the pay rates until we see all of the language.


Or we could go for industry leading in everything but name one CBA that is leading in everything. Just seems unrealistic. We can go for that but it certainly isnít the norm.

Youíre exactly right, but when it comes down to a measuring contest, hourly rates are the easiest thing to tie our ego to. If the QOL/W2 items arenít there, no biggie, we can complain about that amongst ourselves (who doesnít love having more stuff to complain about!), but rates are what the other guys walking around the terminal in white shirts will know about. :rolleyes:

embraerjetpilot
05-28-2018, 07:54 AM
No, I was mocking someone for saying the someone who makes hamburgers should only be an entry level wage, and that they didnít deserve to make enough to make a living with out working 3 jobs.


QUOTE=queue;2603829]Did you make a typographic error or do you really want to trade your professional price point for a passenger cost discount?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.[/QUOTE]

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 08:03 AM
No, I was mocking someone for saying the someone who makes hamburgers should only be an entry level wage, and that they didn’t deserve to make enough to make a living with out working 3 jobs.


QUOTE=queue;2603829]Did you make a typographic error or do you really want to trade your professional price point for a passenger cost discount?


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Making hamburgers should be an entry level job only.
Are you okay with a 20/hr min wage and pay 15 for a Big Mac?
Thats the economic choice you're arguing, and its not feasible.

PasserOGas
05-28-2018, 08:04 AM
Good to hear call me. We have. A lot more in common than you think.

I called you but your mom answered. So I *******ed her.

queue
05-28-2018, 08:04 AM
So you want it all? I think that's great, albeit unrealistic.
You should definitely run for an MEC position or lobby to be a negotiator after we vote no on this TA or start the process for the next one.
Good luck Q. You may be perfect for it.


Ok, so let's discuss your point. Why do you think it's unrealistic?








This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

embraerjetpilot
05-28-2018, 08:10 AM
It would be more like 6 for a 20 dollar wage...

And yes, Iíd pay six so that the people who made it had a chance. It would be the right thing to do.

What percentage of wal mart employees receive help from the government? The sad thing is that Walmart makes enough profits to pay ALL their employees a living wage and still have a healthy bottom line. So does Jetblue.

BeatNavy
05-28-2018, 08:16 AM
It would be more like 6 for a 20 dollar wage...

And yes, Iíd pay six so that the people who made it had a chance. It would be the right thing to do.

What percentage of wal mart employees receive help from the government? The sad thing is that Walmart makes enough profits to pay ALL their employees a living wage and still have a healthy bottom line. So does Jetblue.


Then do it. Give away all your money via charity to those less fortunate. Or move to a communist country. But Iím not a communist, this country isnít communist, so you canít give away mine.

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 08:16 AM
Ok, so let's discuss your point. Why do you think it's unrealistic?








This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Its a negotiation. You bargain. Its a give and take.
Now while Ive always hammered B6 for taking from us, this negotiation has NOTHING to do with the past. It lives in the present.
I agree that the pay rates are not Deltas, the profit sharing is not SWA's and the signing bonus is not Spirit's...etc.
HOWEVER, if we wait and look at the contract as a WHOLE, it may be on par with SWA.
When you cherry pick aspects to persuade a NO vote, without having the entire story, you are in error.
What if the reserve rules are better than Delta, the pairing construction is superior to SWA and everything we have is better than Spirit or Alaska? Do you have the objectivity to be clear headed?
To expect an industry leading "everything" is naive at best and idiotic at worst Q.
I do not think you are unintelligent Q, I believe you are blindly angry and are looking for revenge and perfection; both of which are immature expectations.
And believe me, I know plenty about immaturity-ask my wife;)

queue
05-28-2018, 08:19 AM
No, I was mocking someone for saying the someone who makes hamburgers should only be an entry level wage, and that they didnít deserve to make enough to make a living with out working 3 jobs.


Sorry but they don't "deserve" to make a living wage flipping burgers. If you can't advance beyond that it's your own fault for being a slacker. These same people could make three times as much doing lawn care. If he's really motivated, he can start a whole lawn care business and make more than a pilot. Ironically I'm good friends with a guy who does that and also a guy who went from being a jailed criminal to being a multimillionaire after starting a tow-truck company. Burger flipping jobs don't even require a 6th grade education level. Higher paying jobs are commensurate education, other factors, and ultimately reproducibility. McDonalds workers are so replaceable that the first machine level automation systems are replacing them (robots). And, that's only the first generation.


Jobs like that are great for high school kids to learn basic responsibility and work ethic. You're not supposed to stay at those jobs your whole life just like you're not supposed to stay in Junior High for a lifetime.


At some point these people need to learn personal responsibility. That's something you victims on the left haven't quite learned yet.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 08:25 AM
It would be more like 6 for a 20 dollar wage...

And yes, Iíd pay six so that the people who made it had a chance. It would be the right thing to do.

What percentage of wal mart employees receive help from the government? The sad thing is that Walmart makes enough profits to pay ALL their employees a living wage and still have a healthy bottom line. So does Jetblue.

You're not getting it ejp. Its not about specific numbers, its about a faulty concept called Socialism. The model eventually runs out of other peoples money.
Entry level work deserves entry level pay.
Skilled professionals deserve commensurate pay (higher)

Bozo the pilot
05-28-2018, 08:25 AM
Sorry but they don't "deserve" to make a living wage flipping burgers. If you can't advance beyond that it's your own fault for being a slacker. These same people could make three times as much doing lawn care. If he's really motivated, he can start a whole lawn care business and make more than a pilot. Ironically I'm good friends with a guy who does that and also a guy who went from being a jailed criminal to being a multimillionaire after starting a tow-truck company. Burger flipping jobs don't even require a 6th grade education level. Higher paying jobs are commensurate education, other factors, and ultimately reproducibility. McDonalds workers are so replaceable that the first machine level automation systems are replacing them (robots). And, that's only the first generation.


Jobs like that are great for high school kids to learn basic responsibility and work ethic. You're not supposed to stay at those jobs your whole life just like you're not supposed to stay in Junior High for a lifetime.


At some point these people need to learn personal responsibility. That's something you victims on the left haven't quite learned yet.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Well stated Q. Spot on.

Baba Yaga
05-28-2018, 10:21 AM
Its a negotiation. You bargain. Its a give and take.
Now while Ive always hammered B6 for taking from us, this negotiation has NOTHING to do with the past. It lives in the present.
I agree that the pay rates are not Deltas, the profit sharing is not SWA's and the signing bonus is not Spirit's...etc.
HOWEVER, if we wait and look at the contract as a WHOLE, it may be on par with SWA.
When you cherry pick aspects to persuade a NO vote, without having the entire story, you are in error.
What if the reserve rules are better than Delta, the pairing construction is superior to SWA and everything we have is better than Spirit or Alaska? Do you have the objectivity to be clear headed?
To expect an industry leading "everything" is naive at best and idiotic at worst Q.
I do not think you are unintelligent Q, I believe you are blindly angry and are looking for revenge and perfection; both of which are immature expectations.
And believe me, I know plenty about immaturity-ask my wife;)

Bozo Iím happy knowing you where not part of our NC. Do you realize that we all have different needs and thatís why we vote different ways?

hyperboy
05-28-2018, 10:57 AM
Hyperboy, you can accuse people all day. No one cares about you, least of all me. Read those words carefully.... I'm refer to you as a personality.


I care about ideas. Instead of making personal attacks which accomplish nothing, perhaps you should debate things in the marketplace of ideas. You are acting exactly like a leftist liberal that cries racism instead of talking the issues with logical context. Real life is letting the better ideas win, not just crying wolf saying everyone is in fantasy land. Your recent posts are only indicative of someone who can't offer logical arguments.


You've yet to explain to me how the final language will fix the substandard rates (Alaska+1) in the AIP bulletpoints.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


After (we) read it?

BeatNavy
05-28-2018, 11:11 AM
After (we) read it?

You can debate the affordable care act without reading all 1000+ pages of it. There is enough in the AIP bullet points to debate. Not enough to decide how to vote. The TA will bring a whole new amount of discussion and debate. Nice to get some of the highlights out of the way first as a starting point/basis.

queue
05-28-2018, 12:13 PM
Its a negotiation. You bargain. Its a give and take.
Now while Ive always hammered B6 for taking from us, this negotiation has NOTHING to do with the past. It lives in the present.
I agree that the pay rates are not Deltas, the profit sharing is not SWA's and the signing bonus is not Spirit's...etc.
HOWEVER, if we wait and look at the contract as a WHOLE, it may be on par with SWA.
When you cherry pick aspects to persuade a NO vote, without having the entire story, you are in error.
What if the reserve rules are better than Delta, the pairing construction is superior to SWA and everything we have is better than Spirit or Alaska? Do you have the objectivity to be clear headed?
To expect an industry leading "everything" is naive at best and idiotic at worst Q.
I do not think you are unintelligent Q, I believe you are blindly angry and are looking for revenge and perfection; both of which are immature expectations.
And believe me, I know plenty about immaturity-ask my wife


First let me address the whole false accusation that I'm looking for revenge and perfection. I seek revenge on no one because (1) I don't believe in it, (2) no one has hurt me. This is my "retirement" job - I do this for fun. The pinnacle of my career was in the past (as far as aviation is concerned). Moving people from A to B is hardly comparable. However, I'm still a warrior and I will always be. I see lots of screwed over people and otherwise underpaid/overworked people at BJ and this bothers me on a moral and ethical standpoint; I also see a bunch of self-made victims. Since I do not fear being broke or homeless, I can afford to care about others. You may view it as revenge/perfection but that's only because I'm more aggressive towards a realistic goal, and not one I'm told to accept. I keep saying that BJ pilots are defeatists because their frame of reference is almost universally based on their RJ days or "it's better than what we had before" without realistic, empirical study of the competition, or even better, what is actually possible. Yes, my goalis perfection, but a goal is just that, a goal. Anything less is simply terms of surrender, which I unfortunately expect of BJ defeatists. BJ pilots KNOW how to be conquered! Just look at 3x ALPA on property and 3A. The blue juice is so deeply embedded in BJ pilots that they don't even know it - Stockholm Syndrome. I don't surrender.. I'm a warrior. I always will be. Sorry if you are not. It's funny how compared to my more militant SWA and DL friends, I'm quite moderate :-)



You’re telling me the basic philosophy of negotiation is give and take. OK… but it also depends on where you are starting from. Otherwise you are playing into the relativistic argument that BJ *wants* you to give into. Why are you convincing yourself of what our best offer can be? Are you negotiating with yourself or with BJ? Did they say NO you can't have those rates and those rules? No.... you are already walking in with neutered expectations, exactly like BJ wants you to. Do you go to war only telling your troops you can only realistically defeat 60% of the enemy? No... you tell them you will defeat them all and have overwhelming victory.



Now, Consider the simple metric of BJ’s profit(not revenue, which doesn’t include overhead cost). This is a great document because it doesn’t force you to know their specific costs. BJ is pulling in:
∑ 290% of AA
∑ 207% of UA
∑ 153% of DL
∑ 131% of SWA

https://i.imgur.com/108t9A4.png

With these PROFIT margins (note: not revenue), why can AA, UA, DL, and SWA afford to pay their pilots significantly higher WITH profit sharing & rules that are far superior? Answer: they choose to because their pilot unions didn’t settle for less(except may AA whose union sold them out with compromise).

And that's not even considering the millions/billions BJ is saving with the Trump Tax Cuts.

Rather than investing in you, BJ has chosen to burn money on BJ technology ventures (on Bonni and her amazing lack of tech knowledge), hotels, airplanes in cash, and now their travel business.
You say that it’s naÔve and idiotic, yet you have no objective frame of reference from which to base your statements on, except that “it’s better than before”. You have to admit that you are caging your argument on the personal intuition that we are akin to Alaska and almost to SWA based on fleet size or some other comparable metric.
Negotiation is not just give and take. It’s also being able to walk away if the deal does not meet basic requirements. If you merely compromise, you’re always going to settle for less. That’s why so many people here are OK with “better than before”. Did BJ walk away from buying VX or did they figure out their base level requirements were not met? Sure, there are some minor points of negotiation, but you must have requirements below which you can go no lower. Personally, and talking purely of wages, I want no lower than (SWA+DL+UA+AA)/4, but also with work rules that meet or exceed their standards.
My final point: even if the contractual language is acceptable to you, we will never truly have reached our profit potential because we never maximized the negotiation process. This could only be achieved through extended strike.BJ will offer something that is directly proportional to what we accept as a minimum. That’s why they toss crumbs at us… they only pay what they have to. If we don’t strike, we will not have given BJ the maximum incentive to provide us professional/market leading rates/rules that BJ is *capable* of. Given they make so much profit, surely their ability to pay us and provide good rules is superior to any of the legacy carriers. We will never know if we settle for less now.
Even the best work rules will not compensate for the additional time required to achieve rates comparable to the top 4 air carriers. In other words, our goal should be to make the most amount of profit for the least amount of time investment. The work rules will probably rigged to reward people who do 100 hrs/month routinely (e.g. the juicers). I say this because BJ calculates all of this… their playbook is based on numbers. That’s why we’re understaffed/underpaid now, yet the juicers make a fortune but FOs are on food stamps Year 1. BJ want to control productivity. One of my Delta friends always brags that Delta pilots are the most unproductive in the industry. In a sense, this too should be our goal. I don’t want a situation where we are only getting DL/UA/AA rates by sacrificing QOL.The NYC guys don’t care because they live there and it’s easy for them to get to work. However, it screws over commuters. BJ wants to pay you 200% because they save a lot of money by understaffing and paying a lower basic rate. Again, this is why the juicers/non-lanyard wearers are the juicers/non-lanyard wearers. This system works for THEM but not for anyone else.



The market is at the best time in history. Airlines are making record profits. If we accept what the AIP implies, it will be 4,5,6,7+ years after this contract before a new one takes effect, and the AIP bullet points did not mention a "snap up clause". You will lose millions $$$. We need to maximize now. There is no guarantee that in 3-4 yrs the market will be the same, particularly if some socialist takes office.



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/32/e8/d732e8177b9b244a29c8efa608842094.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 12:20 PM
After (we) read it?


HB, I read the bullet points, and even those are unacceptable. I'll read the contract too, as a lawyer. However, I have extremely serious doubts the legalese will improve it.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
05-28-2018, 12:22 PM
It would be more like 6 for a 20 dollar wage...

And yes, Iíd pay six so that the people who made it had a chance. It would be the right thing to do.

What percentage of wal mart employees receive help from the government? The sad thing is that Walmart makes enough profits to pay ALL their employees a living wage and still have a healthy bottom line. So does Jetblue.


What is a living wage? I know this a leftist/social justice warrior/MSNBC talking buzz-phrase but it's never actually defined anywhere except for as a term of attack for virtue signaling.




This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

hilltopflyer
05-28-2018, 06:35 PM
It would be more like 6 for a 20 dollar wage...

And yes, Iíd pay six so that the people who made it had a chance. It would be the right thing to do.

What percentage of wal mart employees receive help from the government? The sad thing is that Walmart makes enough profits to pay ALL their employees a living wage and still have a healthy bottom line. So does Jetblue.

If I want a good burger I'd go to a good restaurant but if im going to Burger King I'm getting a dollar menu burger. Not a 5 dollar menu burger with a so called living wage. I don't care at all if someone can't apply themselves and move on to a better job. It's an entry level job and should be paid entry level wages. To pay for your gas money to take a girl on a date (high school job). It's a joke when someone says you should raise a family of 4 being a burger flipper.

hyperboy
05-29-2018, 04:42 AM
You can debate the affordable care act without reading all 1000+ pages of it. There is enough in the AIP bullet points to debate. Not enough to decide how to vote. The TA will bring a whole new amount of discussion and debate. Nice to get some of the highlights out of the way first as a starting point/basis.

I agree. Here is my issue. They took surveys and polling which is both subjective and objective (wilson polling) I don't think they just ignored it at all. I think they took it all into account. PTO is sold back at time and half by less than 25 percent of the pilot group. I do but apparently many others don't. I am not a majority either is the 25 %.

I need to read it all. Cause I don't know what it says. Sure we can chat about it. I just don't have enough knowledge to look at the total package and state a case about how i feel........yet.

queue
05-29-2018, 06:24 AM
I agree. Here is my issue. They took surveys and polling which is both subjective and objective (wilson polling) I don't think they just ignored it at all. I think they took it all into account. PTO is sold back at time and half by less than 25 percent of the pilot group. I do but apparently many others don't. I am not a majority either is the 25 %.

I need to read it all. Cause I don't know what it says. Sure we can chat about it. I just don't have enough knowledge to look at the total package and state a case about how i feel........yet.


I've noticed this too.



By the way, I think PTO should be renamed. PTO implies that you can take a day off that you of your choosing without regard to company constraints. As far as I've noticed, you can only PTO if there's sufficient reserve coverage to drop the trip during the initial bids or if you can drop it in later iterations. Therefore, why not just always drop a trip UTO and then sell back PTO at 1.5x? Maybe it should be called Paid Dropped Tripped Option PDTO or something similar. In a former life, PTO was whenever I wanted, not just at employer convenience.



Also, Delta now requires Doctor's notes for extended sick outs (or something like that).



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

BlueJetDork
05-29-2018, 06:34 AM
We are domestic codesharing in less than 20 days with a narrow body (A321) provider.

If narrow body domestic is scoped in but RJs are scoped out that is industry leading?

How many E190s equal a single A321LR in a ASM growth metric?

Also how many pilots attrit from Jetblue each year.

Is the plan as long as we don't furlough (read attrition) and grow ASMs (E190 to A321 LR while shrinking fleet numbers) we can domestically code share with a narrow body provider?

Anyone seen that fleet plan that was approved by the BOD a week or so ago?

rvr1800
05-29-2018, 06:49 AM
We are domestic codesharing in less than 20 days with a narrow body (A321) provider.

If narrow body domestic is scoped in but RJs are scoped out that is industry leading?

How many E190s equal a single A321LR in a ASM growth metric?

Also how many pilots attrit from Jetblue each year.

Is the plan as long as we don't furlough (read attrition) and grow ASMs (E190 to A321 LR while shrinking fleet numbers) we can domestically code share with a narrow body provider?

Anyone seen that fleet plan that was approved by the BOD a week or so ago?

Itís a domestic code share on paper yes. But itís an ETOPS route. When we get certified for ETOPS Iíd expect us to take back that route. Or maybe thereís a carve out for Hawaii but not CONUS. Weíll know in a few weeks when the full language comes out.

Full disclosure, I learned all of that on bluepilots. A website that has somehow become more civil than this one. Never thought Iíd see the day.

hilltopflyer
05-29-2018, 06:53 AM
Itís a domestic code share on paper yes. But itís an ETOPS route. When we get certified for ETOPS Iíd expect us to take back that route. Or maybe thereís a carve out for Hawaii but not CONUS. Weíll know in a few weeks when the full language comes out.

Full disclosure, I learned all of that on bluepilots. A website that has somehow become more civil than this one. Never thought Iíd see the day.

Who are we code sharing with?

BlueJetDork
05-29-2018, 06:57 AM
It’s a domestic code share on paper yes. But it’s an ETOPS route. When we get certified for ETOPS I’d expect us to take back that route. Or maybe there’s a carve out for Hawaii but not CONUS. We’ll know in a few weeks when the full language comes out.

Full disclosure, I learned all of that on bluepilots. A website that has somehow become more civil than this one. Never thought I’d see the day.

ETOPS is coming.

A carve out for domestic but no carve out for narrow body international is industry leading?

Since the Scope Section and the leaked announcement of the codeshare happened nearly on the same day I would expect this "industry leading scope" to scope-in our code (passengers) domestically on HAL narrow body aircraft.

This focus on uneconomic RJ from Fresno to LAX is just dumb when we ARE codesharing on narrow body domestically.

Just F-dumb!

rvr1800
05-29-2018, 07:04 AM
ETOPS is coming.

A carve out for domestic but no carve out for narrow body international is industry leading?

Since the Scope Section and the leaked announcement of the codeshare happened nearly on the same day I would expect this "industry leading scope" to scope-in our code (passengers) domestically on HAL narrow body aircraft.

This focus on uneconomic RJ from Fresno to LAX is just dumb when we ARE codesharing on narrow body domestically.

Just F-dumb!


I donít disagree. But we donít know the details yet. For all we know thereís only an allowance for Hawaiian to do LGB-HNL and thatís it.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 07:13 AM
ETOPS is coming.

A carve out for domestic but no carve out for narrow body international is industry leading?

Since the Scope Section and the leaked announcement of the codeshare happened nearly on the same day I would expect this "industry leading scope" to scope-in our code (passengers) domestically on HAL narrow body aircraft.

This focus on uneconomic RJ from Fresno to LAX is just dumb when we ARE codesharing on narrow body domestically.

Just F-dumb!

Nailed it!

BlueJetDork
05-29-2018, 07:18 AM
I donít disagree. But we donít know the details yet. For all we know thereís only an allowance for Hawaiian to do LGB-HNL and thatís it.

As long as we don't?

Furlough.

Grow.

Okay sounds great move on ...

But pilot group can still shrink without furloughing. Stop hiring and attrition.

We can reduce fleet numbers and still grow ASMs. 1 A321 for 5-7 E190s

Where is the fleet plan?

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 08:25 AM
As long as we don't?

Furlough.

Grow.

Okay sounds great move on ...

But pilot group can still shrink without furloughing. Stop hiring and attrition.

We can reduce fleet numbers and still grow ASMs. 1 A321 for 5-7 E190s

Where is the fleet plan?

#whereisthefleetplan













It will be announced the day after the CBA is ratified. 150 E195-E2s.











Until that day, the C-series is a "done deal".













Until it's not.

rvr1800
05-29-2018, 08:47 AM
#whereisthefleetplan


It will be announced the day after the CBA is ratified. 150 E195-E2s.


Until that day, the C-series is a "done deal"



Until it's not.


I havenít talked to anybody who thinks weíll get the C-series much less that itís a ďdone dealĒ.

BlueJetDork
05-29-2018, 08:56 AM
I havenít talked to anybody who thinks weíll get the C-series much less that itís a ďdone dealĒ.


"why would they put the rates in there if they didn't want to ..."

Because you are a pilot. That is why!

BeatNavy
05-29-2018, 09:03 AM
My prediction is we announce the fleet review decision at farnborough mid July...maybe before depending on when voting opens. Or perhaps the fleet review details ďleakĒ before or during voting before the official announcement. Lots of 190 guys are not having the AIPíd 190 rates. JetBlue announce a c series order...suddenly 190 guys see the low rates as temporary until they become higher paid c series guys (still low, just not as low). I think that is the strategy to sway the vote when it counts. If thereís an E195E2 announcement, which would indefinitely keep us on these terrible E rates, that may not do well for the company and this vote. Iíll throw an extra bet down and wager the airplane order will be tied to ratification. Right out of F&Hís playbook.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 09:17 AM
My prediction is we announce the fleet review decision at farnborough mid July...maybe before depending on when voting opens. Or perhaps the fleet review details ďleakĒ before or during voting before the official announcement. Lots of 190 guys are not having the AIPíd 190 rates. JetBlue announce a c series order...suddenly 190 guys see the low rates as temporary until they become higher paid c series guys (still low, just not as low). I think that is the strategy to sway the vote when it counts. If thereís an E195E2 announcement, which would indefinitely keep us on these terrible E rates, that may not do well for the company and this vote. Iíll throw an extra bet down and wager the airplane order will be tied to ratification. Right out of F&Hís playbook.

I tend to agree, this is what I'm expecting.

Or, no fleet review until CBA voted in, then E2s. But under this scenario, the C is a "done deal" rumor.

Could go either way.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 09:18 AM
I havenít talked to anybody who thinks weíll get the C-series much less that itís a ďdone dealĒ.

I have ABSOLUTELY heard the C is a "done deal" and "approved" by the BOD many times in the last several weeks.

pilotpayne
05-29-2018, 10:05 AM
My prediction is we announce the fleet review decision at farnborough mid July...maybe before depending on when voting opens. Or perhaps the fleet review details ďleakĒ before or during voting before the official announcement. Lots of 190 guys are not having the AIPíd 190 rates. JetBlue announce a c series order...suddenly 190 guys see the low rates as temporary until they become higher paid c series guys (still low, just not as low). I think that is the strategy to sway the vote when it counts. If thereís an E195E2 announcement, which would indefinitely keep us on these terrible E rates, that may not do well for the company and this vote. Iíll throw an extra bet down and wager the airplane order will be tied to ratification. Right out of F&Hís playbook.


Really or.
We get a large C Oder and start to replace the old 320s and the 190.
The C could be good for 190 guys but bad for bus guys.

PasserOGas
05-29-2018, 10:07 AM
My prediction is we announce the fleet review decision at farnborough mid July...maybe before depending on when voting opens. Or perhaps the fleet review details ďleakĒ before or during voting before the official announcement. Lots of 190 guys are not having the AIPíd 190 rates. JetBlue announce a c series order...suddenly 190 guys see the low rates as temporary until they become higher paid c series guys (still low, just not as low). I think that is the strategy to sway the vote when it counts. If thereís an E195E2 announcement, which would indefinitely keep us on these terrible E rates, that may not do well for the company and this vote. Iíll throw an extra bet down and wager the airplane order will be tied to ratification. Right out of F&Hís playbook.

Most other pilot groups are bribed with widebody orders. How "jetblue" to bribe us with a glorified RJ.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 10:10 AM
Most other pilot groups are bribed with widebody orders. How "jetblue" to bribe us with a glorified RJ.

Because we are very "special". History has now proven that.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 10:12 AM
Really or.
We get a large C Oder and start to replace the old 320s and the 190.
The C could be good for 190 guys but bad for bus guys.

Also very true.

If fleet review isn't revealed before the vote, I'm not sure how anyone can't assume the worst.

#wheresthefleetreview

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 10:14 AM
But it's probably gonna be announced in July at Farnborough.

But, if it's not, DON'T WORRY. It will be announced at the Paris Show in 2019.

Good things are coming guys!

BeatNavy
05-29-2018, 10:27 AM
But it's probably gonna be announced in July at Farnborough.

But, if it's not, DON'T WORRY. It will be announced at the Paris Show in 2019.

Good things are coming guys!

A C series order isn't necessarily a good thing. They could order 40 to replace our 60 E190s. Or they order 60 C series, to replace 60 E190s and 30 A320s.

I don't care. FUPM. I just fly the dang things, and I need a contract that compensates me appropriately, in both seats, in both fleets. Who knows where I'll get stuck when the music stops.

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 10:38 AM
A C series order isn't necessarily a good thing. They could order 40 to replace our 60 E190s. Or they order 60 C series, to replace 60 E190s and 30 A320s.

I don't care. FUPM. I just fly the dang things, and I need a contract that compensates me appropriately, in both seats, in both fleets. Who knows where I'll get stuck when the music stops.

No argument. But 60 C's is better than 60 E2s, all else being equal. Better plane, better cockpit (E killed my back until I got off that thing) and better pay rates.

pilotpayne
05-29-2018, 10:39 AM
Also very true.

If fleet review isn't revealed before the vote, I'm not sure how anyone can't assume the worst.

#wheresthefleetreview


Yup. I absolutely see the scenario where do away with the 190 and the old 320s. Order a mix of C 100/300s

BeatNavy
05-29-2018, 10:50 AM
Yup. I absolutely see the scenario where do away with the 190 and the old 320s. Order a mix of C 100/300s

Don't forget the CS500.

pilotpayne
05-29-2018, 12:46 PM
Don't forget the CS500.

That as well. I still think we become a 321/C airline.

Bozo the pilot
05-29-2018, 01:49 PM
First let me address the whole false accusation that I'm looking for revenge and perfection. I seek revenge on no one because (1) I don't believe in it, (2) no one has hurt me. This is my "retirement" job - I do this for fun. The pinnacle of my career was in the past (as far as aviation is concerned). Moving people from A to B is hardly comparable. However, I'm still a warrior and I will always be. I see lots of screwed over people and otherwise underpaid/overworked people at BJ and this bothers me on a moral and ethical standpoint; I also see a bunch of self-made victims. Since I do not fear being broke or homeless, I can afford to care about others. You may view it as revenge/perfection but that's only because I'm more aggressive towards a realistic goal, and not one I'm told to accept. I keep saying that BJ pilots are defeatists because their frame of reference is almost universally based on their RJ days or "it's better than what we had before" without realistic, empirical study of the competition, or even better, what is actually possible. Yes, my goalis perfection, but a goal is just that, a goal. Anything less is simply terms of surrender, which I unfortunately expect of BJ defeatists. BJ pilots KNOW how to be conquered! Just look at 3x ALPA on property and 3A. The blue juice is so deeply embedded in BJ pilots that they don't even know it - Stockholm Syndrome. I don't surrender.. I'm a warrior. I always will be. Sorry if you are not. It's funny how compared to my more militant SWA and DL friends, I'm quite moderate :-)



You’re telling me the basic philosophy of negotiation is give and take. OK… but it also depends on where you are starting from. Otherwise you are playing into the relativistic argument that BJ *wants* you to give into. Why are you convincing yourself of what our best offer can be? Are you negotiating with yourself or with BJ? Did they say NO you can't have those rates and those rules? No.... you are already walking in with neutered expectations, exactly like BJ wants you to. Do you go to war only telling your troops you can only realistically defeat 60% of the enemy? No... you tell them you will defeat them all and have overwhelming victory.



Now, Consider the simple metric of BJ’s profit(not revenue, which doesn’t include overhead cost). This is a great document because it doesn’t force you to know their specific costs. BJ is pulling in:
∑ 290% of AA
∑ 207% of UA
∑ 153% of DL
∑ 131% of SWA

https://i.imgur.com/108t9A4.png

With these PROFIT margins (note: not revenue), why can AA, UA, DL, and SWA afford to pay their pilots significantly higher WITH profit sharing & rules that are far superior? Answer: they choose to because their pilot unions didn’t settle for less(except may AA whose union sold them out with compromise).

And that's not even considering the millions/billions BJ is saving with the Trump Tax Cuts.

Rather than investing in you, BJ has chosen to burn money on BJ technology ventures (on Bonni and her amazing lack of tech knowledge), hotels, airplanes in cash, and now their travel business.
You say that it’s naÔve and idiotic, yet you have no objective frame of reference from which to base your statements on, except that “it’s better than before”. You have to admit that you are caging your argument on the personal intuition that we are akin to Alaska and almost to SWA based on fleet size or some other comparable metric.
Negotiation is not just give and take. It’s also being able to walk away if the deal does not meet basic requirements. If you merely compromise, you’re always going to settle for less. That’s why so many people here are OK with “better than before”. Did BJ walk away from buying VX or did they figure out their base level requirements were not met? Sure, there are some minor points of negotiation, but you must have requirements below which you can go no lower. Personally, and talking purely of wages, I want no lower than (SWA+DL+UA+AA)/4, but also with work rules that meet or exceed their standards.
My final point: even if the contractual language is acceptable to you, we will never truly have reached our profit potential because we never maximized the negotiation process. This could only be achieved through extended strike.BJ will offer something that is directly proportional to what we accept as a minimum. That’s why they toss crumbs at us… they only pay what they have to. If we don’t strike, we will not have given BJ the maximum incentive to provide us professional/market leading rates/rules that BJ is *capable* of. Given they make so much profit, surely their ability to pay us and provide good rules is superior to any of the legacy carriers. We will never know if we settle for less now.
Even the best work rules will not compensate for the additional time required to achieve rates comparable to the top 4 air carriers. In other words, our goal should be to make the most amount of profit for the least amount of time investment. The work rules will probably rigged to reward people who do 100 hrs/month routinely (e.g. the juicers). I say this because BJ calculates all of this… their playbook is based on numbers. That’s why we’re understaffed/underpaid now, yet the juicers make a fortune but FOs are on food stamps Year 1. BJ want to control productivity. One of my Delta friends always brags that Delta pilots are the most unproductive in the industry. In a sense, this too should be our goal. I don’t want a situation where we are only getting DL/UA/AA rates by sacrificing QOL.The NYC guys don’t care because they live there and it’s easy for them to get to work. However, it screws over commuters. BJ wants to pay you 200% because they save a lot of money by understaffing and paying a lower basic rate. Again, this is why the juicers/non-lanyard wearers are the juicers/non-lanyard wearers. This system works for THEM but not for anyone else.



The market is at the best time in history. Airlines are making record profits. If we accept what the AIP implies, it will be 4,5,6,7+ years after this contract before a new one takes effect, and the AIP bullet points did not mention a "snap up clause". You will lose millions $$$. We need to maximize now. There is no guarantee that in 3-4 yrs the market will be the same, particularly if some socialist takes office.



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/d7/32/e8/d732e8177b9b244a29c8efa608842094.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Im not even a Yes or No vote yet. The fact that you have decided NO already does not exemplify a thoughtful, well-informed decision. It wreaks of resentment and revenge. I know you took 14 paragraphs to argue the opposite, but Im not buyin.
I am fully able to vote no if and when the time comes. Im keeping an open mind while you and the No persuaders have closed yours.
For the LAST time, I promise Q; Weigh the contract in its entirety;anything else is foolish and emotional.
Hey maybe you'll get the NO vote you're pushin and the T/A#2 comes back with immense improvements. I really hope you're right.
For now, you may commence bashing those of us who are waiting for final language.;)

Bluedriver
05-29-2018, 01:57 PM
That as well. I still think we become a 321/C airline.

There is nothing inherently wrong with that, if it's done correctly.

60-100 C-100/300's to replace 60 E90s

130 C-500 to replace 130 A320s (eventually)

A321s.

I do not see down-gauging in our future. We operate in heavily congested and slot controlled airspace in an environment where pilots are increasingly in short supply. The program for many airliners will be to move more people with fewer pilots, via upgauging.

If we order E2s, it will be the E195. If we order C's to replace the E's, it will be 100/300s. If we order additional C's to replace A320s, it will be C500's.

Of course this will all be announced soon at the Paris air show in 2019. Or Farnborough 2020. Or Paris 2021. Or Stockholders meeting 2024. Or just 2 more years until 2 more years.



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