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View Full Version : Uh oh


P Owed Captain
05-23-2018, 07:22 AM
Skywest incident last night.

https://www.google.com/amp/abc7.com/amp/2-planes-clip-wings-at-hollywood-burbank-airport/3510599/


amcnd
05-23-2018, 07:52 AM
Pause the video. Looks like UA is 2 feet back from the mark. And OO 175 is 2 feet left of centerline... hmmmm. I like how the lady says “it felt like we ran over a body”. How does she know what that feel like!! And “we hit Continental “... airlines been gone for 6 years...

minimwage4
05-23-2018, 07:59 AM
Pause the video. Looks like UA is 2 feet back from the mark. And OO 175 is 2 feet left of centerline... hmmmm. I like how the lady says “it felt like we ran over a body”. How does she know what that feel like!! And “we hit Continental “... airlines been gone for 6 years...

To be fair though it is Continetal with United slapped on it.


amcnd
05-23-2018, 08:00 AM
To be fair though it is Continetal with United slapped on it.

I would agree if it wasn’t a airbus... ;-)

rickair7777
05-23-2018, 09:52 AM
Pause the video. Looks like UA is 2 feet back from the mark. And OO 175 is 2 feet left of centerline... hmmmm. I like how the lady says “it felt like we ran over a body”. How does she know what that feel like!! And “we hit Continental “... airlines been gone for 6 years...


Doesn't matter where it was parked. The brake was set and it's crew was at the hotel bar. It's on the SKW guy. The CA, not the FO.

NewGuy01
05-23-2018, 10:56 AM
Doesn't matter where it was parked. The brake was set and it's crew was at the hotel bar. It's on the SKW guy. The CA, not the FO.

Personally, I was kind of relieved to see the impact happened on the left side of the aircraft....

CBreezy
05-23-2018, 11:32 AM
Doesn't matter where it was parked. The brake was set and it's crew was at the hotel bar. It's on the SKW guy. The CA, not the FO.

This. The moving plane is always responsible for wing clearance. It doesn't matter if the thing you hit is at the gate or on the runway. If you aren't sure you can make it, stop. If you're in a ramp, have your wing walkers come out.

Check Complete
05-23-2018, 11:43 AM
This. The moving plane is always responsible for wing clearance. It doesn't matter if the thing you hit is at the gate or on the runway. If you aren't sure you can make it, stop. If you're in a ramp, have your wing walkers come out.


Uh, really?

Haven't you heard of Minimum Service Time?

Plus the E-175 is the future and wing walkers cost money, it surely must have been the fault of the parked A320!

Parked airplanes be damned, it all about D:0 and A:0!

I'm just surprised they didn't blow another slide?

trip
05-23-2018, 12:01 PM
Doesn't matter where it was parked. The brake was set and it's crew was at the hotel bar. It's on the SKW guy. The CA, not the FO.

To be fair they both look like they're on the yellow line, but yeah that corner was cramped when it was 50's in there. The CA is hosed.

Related- was talking with an ASAP guy and he said 9/10 times the F/O throws the CA under the bus in their report!

rickair7777
05-23-2018, 12:07 PM
To be fair they both look like they're on the yellow line, but yeah that corner was cramped when it was 50's in there. The CA is hosed.


I can't recall if ASAP is available with bent metal?




Related- was talking with an ASAP guy and he said 9/10 times the F/O throws the CA under the bus in their report!


In this case the FO probably doesn't have to even bother... it's self-evident.

CBreezy
05-23-2018, 12:17 PM
I can't recall if ASAP is available with bent metal?






In this case the FO probably doesn't have to even bother... it's self-evident.

ASAP is available for everything but intentional disregard for safety and medically related events. Now, it isn't a guarantee that the company can't come for you or from being classified as a "incident," but it should protect you from certificate action.

trip
05-23-2018, 12:40 PM
The new coined term is "intentional non-compliance" EX. violate sterile <18K, = >intentional non-compliance.

JuniorFO
05-23-2018, 01:30 PM
ASAP is available for everything but intentional disregard for safety and medically related events. Now, it isn't a guarantee that the company can't come for you or from being classified as a "incident," but it should protect you from certificate action.

Sure would be nice to have union representation in situations like this!

rickair7777
05-23-2018, 01:33 PM
The new coined term is "intentional non-compliance" EX. violate sterile <18K, = >intentional non-compliance.


Yes sterile violations are considered intentional and not protected.


I would also not bet on asap for any devation which occurred during or near a sterile violation, they might conclude that the sterile was a distraction which led to the other issue. Hopefully the crew in BUR was not shooting the breeze when the clipped UAL...

Flogger
05-23-2018, 02:12 PM
To be fair they both look like they're on the yellow line, but yeah that corner was cramped when it was 50's in there. The CA is hosed.

Related- was talking with an ASAP guy and he said 9/10 times the F/O throws the CA under the bus in their report!

Captain not hosed unless he was blatantly violating a policy, even then, if he doesn't lie, pee funny or have a CVR which says he was bragging about nailing the FA, well he he should be fine.

We hit things.

It happens.

Check Complete
05-23-2018, 04:06 PM
Sure would be nice to have union representation in situations like this!


Words best said!!!!!!!!

Check Complete
05-23-2018, 04:44 PM
Captain not hosed unless he was blatantly violating a policy, even then, if he doesn't lie, pee funny or have a CVR which says he was bragging about nailing the FA, well he he should be fine.

We hit things.

It happens.

It depends, if management likes him, good company guy, cheerleader, Koolaid drinker, nothing will happen.

No koolaid, out spoken about policies or procedures, ALPA committee driver, ASAP writer about safety concerns, Fired!

Flogger
05-23-2018, 04:49 PM
It depends, if management likes him, good company guy, cheerleader, Koolaid drinker, nothing will happen.

No koolaid, out spoken about policies or procedures, ALPA committee driver, ASAP writer about safety concerns, Fired!

I hope you're not right. I type a pro-union take on this, then deleted it.

TCASTESTOK
05-24-2018, 02:41 PM
The new coined term is "intentional non-compliance" EX. violate sterile <18K, = >intentional non-compliance.


don't you mean below 10k for sterile? Or does OO have sterile go to/from 10k?

rickair7777
05-24-2018, 03:08 PM
don't you mean below 10k for sterile? Or does OO have sterile go to/from 10k?


Sterile is 18K on the way down. Too many gooned up arrivals.

PowderFinger
05-24-2018, 03:19 PM
Sure would be nice to have union representation in situations like this!

These guys are the best ... Their company will look out for them.

gojo
05-24-2018, 04:47 PM
Sterile is 18K on the way down. Too many gooned up arrivals.

But isn’t that just a Skywest thing? I’m pretty sure that most airlines call sterile below 10000 feet, which also comes from the FAA. Then headsets below 18000.

rickair7777
05-24-2018, 05:25 PM
But isn’t that just a Skywest thing? I’m pretty sure that most airlines call sterile below 10000 feet, which also comes from the FAA. Then headsets below 18000.


Yes it's a SKW thing. Not sure if anyone else does it. But it's part of their SOP, so not optional per the FAA.

skwcrj
05-25-2018, 10:55 AM
Do you ever get parked by a ramper who just stares at the nosewheel? The guy who never looks at his wing walkers but has to make sure the tires are perfectly center on that yellow line? I have a feeling that this was the case here. I'm imaging the wing walker trying to get the attention of the marshaller while the marshaller was too busy trying paying attention to the nosetires.

Just my opinion. And yes ASAP would cover this. I've seen worse happen and the pilot was protected under ASAP.

WesternSkies
05-25-2018, 11:59 AM
This is not sole source and not protected at all by ASAP. Neither was my issue buuuuut my asap was noted and appreciated and was explicitly told it helped deminish the corrective action taken.
So indeed, always file an ASAP

rickair7777
05-25-2018, 12:17 PM
This is not sole source and not protected at all by ASAP. Neither was my issue buuuuut my asap was noted and appreciated and was explicitly told it helped deminish the corrective action taken.
So indeed, always file an ASAP


Sole source is not required for asap. Protections are better with sole source

skwcrj
05-25-2018, 01:59 PM
I agree with Rickair. They are covered. In this case, I believe that most of the blame goes to the ramp crew for not following proper protocol since someone was not paying attention.

The ASAP committee could still recommend some sort of non-punitive action (verbal coaching, training, etc). However, our ASAP agreement with the company and the FAA will most likely exclude punitive actions.

The main thing is that ALL parties will learn and make changes to procedures at BUR.

As a side note, the airplane only has a few minor scrapes on the upper part of the winglet. This is amazing considering the type of collision involved.

trip
05-25-2018, 02:07 PM
I don't think rampers were in this position as the 175 would have still been on the "taxi way/ramp/runway" just prior to turning into the parking area. They would however be responsible for parking the bus short of where it should have been parked.

skwcrj
05-25-2018, 02:34 PM
I don't think rampers were in this position as the 175 would have still been on the "taxi way/ramp/runway" just prior to turning into the parking area. They would however be responsible for parking the bus short of where it should have been parked.

From what I read, they were being actively being marshaled with wing walkers in place. Of course, I wasn't there so I can't say exactly whether the account is accurate or not. ;)

I'm sure we will see some FOAB coming out of this in the near future.

Obviously... if you are being marshaled in and you feel that it is not safe to continue. It is your responsibility to stop until the situation is rectified. Once you start moving, you need to follow the instructions from the marshaler. Is all ground equipment (including other airplanes) are on the other line of the clear lines? I think you can make a case that it wasn't your fault. :eek:

E6BAV8R
05-26-2018, 09:07 AM
I agree with Rickair. They are covered. In this case, I believe that most of the blame goes to the ramp crew for not following proper protocol since someone was not paying attention.

The ASAP committee could still recommend some sort of non-punitive action (verbal coaching, training, etc). However, our ASAP agreement with the company and the FAA will most likely exclude punitive actions.

The main thing is that ALL parties will learn and make changes to procedures at BUR.

As a side note, the airplane only has a few minor scrapes on the upper part of the winglet. This is amazing considering the type of collision involved.

I don't think our ASAP agreement with company will protect you at all in this scenario, since it is Non Sole Source. If the company wanted to punish the Crew they'd have all the evidence they would need, ASAP or not.

Having said that, I don't think they'll take any action than some re-training. **** happens. I also think the CA is an extremely senior CA at the company.

rickair7777
05-26-2018, 03:21 PM
I don't think our ASAP agreement with company will protect you at all in this scenario, since it is Non Sole Source. If the company wanted to punish the Crew they'd have all the evidence they would need, ASAP or not.

Having said that, I don't think they'll take any action than some re-training. **** happens. I also think the CA is an extremely senior CA at the company.


Depends on the specific ASAP agreement. Generally companies will go easier if the ASAP system is used, typically just allowing the ERC to determine the remedial training. Could be different story if you're a proble child or there was questionable behavior associated with the event, ie not an "honest" mistake.



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