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View Full Version : TA is out..


amcnd
05-23-2018, 03:49 PM
Waits over, TA is out...


Check Complete
05-23-2018, 04:03 PM
Waits over, TA is out...


How bad does it suck?

RemoveB4Flight
05-23-2018, 04:11 PM
Wow.. who thought this was good?
Itís terrible.
The ďwork rule improvementĒ is BLOCK of over 79-89+ ...not helpful and isnít in effect until September..conveniently after they abuse us all summer.

Bonuses basically gone but we still donít touch other regionals pay scale.

Companies discretion to increase FO pay $5/hr and offer $30,000 sign on bonuses! Absolutely crazy!


Bonanzer
05-23-2018, 04:18 PM
Heard it matches our (Republic) pay. Any luck on block or better?

RemoveB4Flight
05-23-2018, 04:20 PM
To elaborate on why the block work rule ďimprovementĒ is worthless..
Since we can only fly 1000 hours on a rolling 365, our block can only average 83.3 hours/month. So realistically we can only take advantage of 4 hours/ month at 125% and even then youíre working yourself to death.
Again, not helpful.

Bonanzer
05-23-2018, 04:22 PM
To elaborate on why the block work rule ďimprovementĒ is worthless..
Since we can only fly 1000 hours on a rolling 365, our block can only average 83.3 hours/month. So realistically we can only take advantage of 4 hours/ month at 125% and even then youíre working yourself to death.
Again, not helpful.

Block or block plus deadhead?

hawk21
05-23-2018, 04:27 PM
Some decent stuff that needs to be desperately reworded added and a lot of stuff taken away for no reason. No QOL improvements. Pay scale is decent but not industry leading.

Easy no vote.

amcnd
05-23-2018, 04:35 PM
I havenít read it yet. But funny a friend 4 months ago was complaining that or bonuses should be in our rates like Endeavor... Now he text me hes mad they took our bonuses away.. LOL... he actually laughed when I called him out on it...

RemoveB4Flight
05-23-2018, 04:40 PM
I havenít read it yet. But funny a friend 4 months ago was complaining that or bonuses should be in our rates like Endeavor... Now he text me hes mad they took our bonuses away.. LOL... he actually laughed when I called him out on it...

The problem is they removed the bonuses without adding enough to the hourly rate to compensate for the loss of them

amcnd
05-23-2018, 04:50 PM
The problem is they removed the bonuses without adding enough to the hourly rate to compensate for the loss of them

Captain PPS bonus go up.. thats 2 a year. I need to do more math. Compre to last year and see.

hawk21
05-23-2018, 04:50 PM
The problem is they removed the bonuses without adding enough to the hourly rate to compensate for the loss of them

Bingo.

Filler

gainzbruh
05-23-2018, 05:06 PM
IM VOTING ALPA :mad:

web500sjc
05-23-2018, 05:50 PM
I know youíre 10% cheaper than EDV, but if you fly 11% slower- you can be paid more.

TheAshtar
05-23-2018, 06:44 PM
SGU offers have always been a ďshell gameĒ. Move money from one place to another. This offer is the most complex one yet, but still the same Ďole same Ďole, lol!

My eyes actually hurt more after reading the ďTAĒ than they do after watching a skilled three card monteí preformer on Burbon St.

Tippy
05-23-2018, 06:49 PM
SGU offers have always been a ďshell gameĒ. Move money from one place to another. This offer is the most complex one yet, but still the same Ďole same Ďole, lol!

My eyes actually hurt more after reading the ďTAĒ than they do after watching a skilled three card monteí preformer on Burbon St.

Mine eyes and brain hurt. WAY to complicated with adding thing here increasing this decreasing that. different pay scales for captain/ FO. They are trying to confuse us! i think it worked

But it only really appeals to the years 1-4 guys (the majority of our pilot group) the only group they need to appeal to. Oh and the few guys over 20 years got a little bump.

trip
05-23-2018, 08:01 PM
It's a shell game for me. Lose 8K discretionary for a 11$ and hour raise that would net me about 8K. Small increase in PPS + $401K.
The tangled web of 125-150% override that will be severely abused by CS is a negative.
I think I'm done thinking about it.

Utah
05-23-2018, 08:02 PM
It's a big steaming pile of ****.

Green Needles
05-23-2018, 08:06 PM
It's a big steaming pile of ****.

So you guys better vote it down, for yourselves and the rest of us.

CRJ All Day
05-23-2018, 08:06 PM
What are the cliff notes of your proposed TA and whens the vote?

fenix1
05-23-2018, 09:03 PM
Is there anything in the TA to address flying that starts 6-ish hours before the beginning of scheduled RAP? I may have the wrong understanding, but I thought it was a SAPA priority to close the loophole that had allowed this.

EFBprobs
05-23-2018, 10:36 PM
This TA is a disgrace. New hires get 12% raise, $30K bonus, and discretionary $5 increase. CA's get 4%. No QOL improvements. No commuter stuff. Absolutely not. Who in their right mind thought this would pass. We want industry standard, thats it. Yet SAPA still sells it. Screw them.

hawk21
05-24-2018, 12:23 AM
What are the cliff notes of your proposed TA and whens the vote?

I don't even know how to give a cliff notes because it's such a disorganized disaster. Voting opens June 7.

Utah
05-24-2018, 04:05 AM
It's not even 4% for captains. Only about 2% for me. Others have figured out it isn't any increase at all.

The loss of the qtrly bonus and 401k money is worth around $8 an hour.

Utah
05-24-2018, 04:08 AM
And with the way the company can increase FO rates and offer a bonus up to $30k it locks CA rates in until at least 2022. With a package that doesn't keep up with inflation.

N1CEandEZ
05-24-2018, 04:15 AM
Does anybody know when new hires would start receiving a bonus if this passed? I have class on July 5th so not sure if it would even apply to me.

dhc8guru
05-24-2018, 06:16 AM
wonder if you have been hired but haven't started training yet if you qualify for the bonus?
Reading through the TA, it seems like they are just moving money around.

Cefiro
05-24-2018, 06:33 AM
This is probably the last time we can use our leverage for a while. Hope everyone votes no, but Iím sure it will pass.

dhc8guru
05-24-2018, 06:58 AM
Does anybody know when new hires would start receiving a bonus if this passed? I have class on July 5th so not sure if it would even apply to me.

I am only going by what I have seen with most companies. But hopefully someone can confirm it, since I also am in the same boat.
Usually bonuses apply after you complete training and even though you have an employee number, your not really an employee. I have seen three scenarios of when a company considers you an employee. After you pass all of your training, IOE or sometimes even after your probation period. Until one of those scenarios plays out your just a "Candidate".
Even under current SW policy for the $7500 bonus. You don't get it till after IOE. Now eligibility, based of your hire date is the question.
So, lets say they eventually do approve something that has a hiring bonus. I am guessing that if the TA its done before your IOE, I would think your eligible for whatever bonus they offer.

ninerdriver
05-24-2018, 07:17 AM
I am only going by what I have seen with most companies. But hopefully someone can confirm it, since I also am in the same boat.
Usually bonuses apply after you complete training and even though you have an employee number, your not really an employee. I have seen three scenarios of when a company considers you an employee. After you pass all of your training, IOE or sometimes even after your probation period. Until one of those scenarios plays out your just a "Candidate".
Even under current SW policy for the $7500 bonus. You don't get it till after IOE. Now eligibility, based of your hire date is the question.
So, lets say they eventually do approve something that has a hiring bonus. I am guessing that if the TA its done before your IOE, I would think your eligible for whatever bonus they offer.

I'm not an OO guy, so I can't see the TA to be sure. That being said, you're an employee from day one, and that's a $30K assumption that you're making. Don't think you know the answer... *know* it.

Edit: that's not meant personally at you... that's general advice from someone who's less than a year in and seen a big LOA at my airline.

blindfayth
05-24-2018, 07:27 AM
I don't really like the wording of:

"We reserve the right to...."

"... increase FO pay by another $5/hr."

or

"... Offer sign on bonuses of up to $30,000.00".

Either do it, or don't. Don't make people vote on vague "maybes" that probably won't happen. Seems potentially and probably very misleading.

What makes this worse: Their pay charts correctly state that they are comparing base pay rates only between the regionals, and not including bonuses. Their charts therefore are not accurately reflecting *actual* pay between each regional. This makes it look like Skywest's pay is comparable to Endeavor or Republic. (i.e. SkyWest $45/hr vs Republic $45/hr for first year FOs). However, if you factor in Republics bonus, it would be more accurate to compare $45/hr for SkyWest, and $55/hr for Republic.

So therefore, if you want to make SkyWest actually competitive, just throw in a bonus to match or exceed them. Don't put in wording of "We reserve the right to offer bonuses".

Translated, that means: "If our hiring continues to fall despite these pay increases that still come up short, then we will reluctantly do so".

This kind of veiled language would not make me feel like a valued employee.

FlapsOverspeed
05-24-2018, 07:30 AM
Guys enough abuse. Pilots on property should not be giving up any bonus to bribe new hires. This is horrible.

finhunter89
05-24-2018, 07:42 AM
It's gonna be a hard No from me, SkyWest makes enough money that they don't need to relocate money in the form of a raise. We need to vote this down by a landslide and show them we mean business

dhc8guru
05-24-2018, 07:42 AM
I'm not an OO guy, so I can't see the TA to be sure. That being said, you're an employee from day one, and that's a $30K assumption that you're making. Don't think you know the answer... *know* it.

Edit: that's not meant personally at you... that's general advice from someone who's less than a year in and seen a big LOA at my airline.

No worries, I am not taking it personally. Like I said I don't know for sure. I know how the last airline I worked for looked at trainee's.

rswitz
05-24-2018, 07:50 AM
So is the 30k bonus definitely happening? Now I'm thinking about interviewing. But I dont want to be hired right before the new bonus is announced and then not be eligible for it.

blindfayth
05-24-2018, 08:02 AM
So is the 30k bonus definitely happening? Now I'm thinking about interviewing. But I dont want to be hired right before the new bonus is announced and then not be eligible for it.

Definitely? No.

It's worded this way:

A. SkyWest may offer a hiring bonus of no more than $30,000 to all new-hire pilots
with the payment structure at the Companyís discretion.

hawk21
05-24-2018, 08:02 AM
So is the 30k bonus definitely happening? Now I'm thinking about interviewing. But I dont want to be hired right before the new bonus is announced and then not be eligible for it.

No it is not definitely happening. They just have the ability to offer signing bonuses UP to 30k if passed. Theyíll probably start at the standard 7,500 as a guess if they do it at all.

awax
05-24-2018, 08:07 AM
Did SAPA just usher in a new ALPA certification push?

No dog in this hunt, but I'm happy to see the recognition that the CBA isn't the tool to fix pilot recruitment issues. Said another way; a rising tide lifts all boats (especially those floating at the top).

Simpsons
05-24-2018, 09:35 AM
Having bonuses rolled into the pay scale is a good thing. The issue with this crappy TA is that's pretty much all that's happening. To make it even worse, it seems like they're trying to fool us by making it look like a huge increase in pay to entice the people that don't pay attention.

Simpsons
05-24-2018, 09:38 AM
But hell, I'll admit it, I'd be a "yes" voter if we had the pay scale they're offering and we got to keep our current bonuses exactly how they are.

Bravix
05-24-2018, 09:45 AM
But hell, I'll admit it, I'd be a "yes" voter if we had the pay scale they're offering and we got to keep our current bonuses exactly how they are.

Block override needs to be changed to credit. Duty rig needs to start immediately, not next year. Any new hire bonus needs to be distributed to the rest of the pilot group as well.

To name a few things.

trip
05-24-2018, 10:22 AM
Ask yourself why SAPA is being so deceptive by not even posting the real CA rates in the TA! Look in the very tiny print at the bottom, CA rates includes 5$ per the PPS bonus.

RTRSKW
05-24-2018, 10:36 AM
My biggest complaint when I was there was the historical credit or better. It needs to be block or better. They could change historical credit to anything they wanted and it was almost always less than historical block. It was basically a tool for management to offset any pay raises. I had some trips where credit was an hour or more less than block.

Is offline
05-24-2018, 10:46 AM
Ask yourself why SAPA is being so deceptive by not even posting the real CA rates in the TA! Look in the very tiny print at the bottom, CA rates includes 5$ per the PPS bonus.

Where do you see that? The note at the one I’m looking at has Note about fo pay.

I found it below the graphs. Funny thing is the last time we couldn’t include endeavor bonuses because they weren’t compensation and now we have to include our bonuses

blindfayth
05-24-2018, 11:36 AM
Where do you see that? The note at the one Iím looking at has Note about fo pay.

I found it below the graphs. Funny thing is the last time we couldnít include endeavor bonuses because they werenít compensation and now we have to include our bonuses

Gotta love those double standards.

tunes
05-24-2018, 12:40 PM
wait, you guys can actually vote no? I thought the 'vote' was just a charade to make you feel better about 'participating'

MacrossJet
05-24-2018, 12:42 PM
Did SAPA just usher in a new ALPA certification push?




That's what I'm hearing too. I guess that time will tell.

Check Complete
05-24-2018, 01:05 PM
This whole thing is a joke, I'm at the top and it locks in less than the cost of living for 4 years!

Chip, Mike, and Tracy are meeting with the senior sim instructors tomorrow so they can help sell it.

The SAPA president has got his super spin on it.

The only yes vote from me will be for ALPA.

But trust me it will pass 3 to 1, especially since the SAPA pres has included the new hires in the vote.

SkyWest has again gotten it's money's worth out of SAPA. What an efffing disgrace!

Air Stang 7
05-24-2018, 01:28 PM
Despite all these negative feelings just remember you guys are beyond privileged. You are superior SkyWest airline pilots, unlike the rest of the regional scum. Now please stand as we recite the SkyWest FO creed.

“No one is more professional than I. I am a First Officer - a member of a flight crew whose purpose is to keep my passengers, crew, and airplane safe.
My decisions are the difference between life and death for both my passengers and my company.
I am the master of my emotions. No one controls my mood but me.
I will conduct myself to bring credit to myself, my Company and my profession at all times.
I will not compromise my integrity or safety for any reason.
I am a leader. I am a professional. I am a First Officer.”

Honest question though, are there really enough people that would pass this and vote no on ALPA?

rickair7777
05-24-2018, 03:07 PM
But trust me it will pass 3 to 1, especially since the SAPA pres has included the new hires in the vote.


Yeah that fix is in for sure. How was it possible that sapa could unilaterally allow noobs to vote without putting it to the whole group??? Hell they should just allow anyone with 1,000+ hours and an employment app on file to vote.

bnkangle
05-24-2018, 03:48 PM
Now please stand as we recite the SkyWest FO creed.

“No one is more professional than I. I am a First Officer - a member of a flight crew whose purpose is to keep my passengers, crew, and airplane safe.
My decisions are the difference between life and death for both my passengers and my company.
I am the master of my emotions. No one controls my mood but me.
I will conduct myself to bring credit to myself, my Company and my profession at all times.
I will not compromise my integrity or safety for any reason.
I am a leader. I am a professional. I am a First Officer.”


Please tell me you made that up for entertainment purposes.

ImPilot I Fly
05-24-2018, 03:53 PM
Please tell me you made that up for entertainment purposes.

Sadly no. They have one for captains too. They just replace the words "First Officer" with the word "Captain".

metx192
05-24-2018, 03:57 PM
This whole thing is a joke, I'm at the top and it locks in less than the cost of living for 4 years!

Chip, Mike, and Tracy are meeting with the senior sim instructors tomorrow so they can help sell it.

The SAPA president has got his super spin on it.

The only yes vote from me will be for ALPA.

But trust me it will pass 3 to 1, especially since the SAPA pres has included the new hires in the vote.

SkyWest has again gotten it's money's worth out of SAPA. What an efffing disgrace!

Iím sure the only reason for raising the 401k match for those with 20+ years is so that it goes into the sim instructorsí pockets as a kickback for pushing the TA. Disgraceful indeed.

wrxpilot
05-24-2018, 04:23 PM
Sadly no. They have one for captains too. They just replace the words "First Officer" with the word "Captain".

I worked there for 7 years and have no idea wtf you are talking about.

PowderFinger
05-24-2018, 04:25 PM
I'm surprised at the negativity.

I'm sure your NC did they best they could based on your input.

No doubt your MEC agreed that the TA met the pilot needs before voting to present it to the pilots.

hawk21
05-24-2018, 04:28 PM
Please tell me you made that up for entertainment purposes.

You must be new here.

ImPilot I Fly
05-24-2018, 04:30 PM
I worked there for 7 years and have no idea wtf you are talking about.

Well things change don't they? We have a creed now. Ill take a picture when I get home and find it if I can. Training department puts it in one of the binders. I'm serious.

FlapsOverspeed
05-24-2018, 04:30 PM
This whole thing is a joke, I'm at the top and it locks in less than the cost of living for 4 years!

Chip, Mike, and Tracy are meeting with the senior sim instructors tomorrow so they can help sell it.

The SAPA president has got his super spin on it.

The only yes vote from me will be for ALPA.

But trust me it will pass 3 to 1, especially since the SAPA pres has included the new hires in the vote.

SkyWest has again gotten it's money's worth out of SAPA. What an efffing disgrace!

Dude get out!!!

bnkangle
05-24-2018, 05:50 PM
You must be new here.

I don’t work at OO, but we had similar chants when I worked at a pizza chain years ago. They involved clapping, jumping and making shapes and letters with our arms and legs.

Bonanzer
05-24-2018, 06:12 PM
(Donít work at Skywest) I just got to see the proposal and am astonished at how terrible it is. On top of sub par rates, they didnít give you any of the work rules and qol that the union carriers have. I would urge anyone who is not aware to look at things like min days off, pay and sick accrual, and block or better. I hope the pilot group votes this down and a real union in, but Iím not holding my breath.

Flogger
05-24-2018, 06:23 PM
I'm surprised at the negativity.

I'm sure your NC did they best they could based on your input.

No doubt your MEC agreed that the TA met the pilot needs before voting to present it to the pilots.

Really? Negotiating Committee?

You have any idea who Skywest is?

Floy
05-24-2018, 06:28 PM
Despite all these negative feelings just remember you guys are beyond privileged. You are superior SkyWest airline pilots, unlike the rest of the regional scum. Now please stand as we recite the SkyWest FO creed.

ďNo one is more professional than I. I am a First Officer - a member of a flight crew whose purpose is to keep my passengers, crew, and airplane safe.
My decisions are the difference between life and death for both my passengers and my company.
I am the master of my emotions. No one controls my mood but me.
I will conduct myself to bring credit to myself, my Company and my profession at all times.
I will not compromise my integrity or safety for any reason.
I am a leader. I am a professional. I am a First Officer.Ē

Honest question though, are there really enough people that would pass this and vote no on ALPA?

Yep. Can't believe those non union mo kool aid drinkers think that professionalism is something to strive for! What a bunch of scum! I heard there are some tentative additions coming on the creed:

I will not act like a child on national forums.
I will treat pay discussions at other airlines as discussions.
I will not obfuscate said pay discussions with unrelated demeaning comments about another pilot groups attempts to increase professionalism

Hard to believe that any pilot group, much less a non union one, would attempt to be more professional and better leaders in the flight deck. What a bunch of tools!

wrxpilot
05-24-2018, 08:44 PM
Well things change don't they? We have a creed now. Ill take a picture when I get home and find it if I can. Training department puts it in one of the binders. I'm serious.

Well I quit like a week ago, so I donít think they changed that quickly.

hawk21
05-24-2018, 08:50 PM
This TA is the greatest thing to happen to the pro-ALPA movement around here. Starting to change a lot of peoplesí minds.

ImPilot I Fly
05-24-2018, 09:22 PM
Well I quit like a week ago, so I donít think they changed that quickly.

Im working on finding a copy. It's pretty hilarious. They gave it to us in new hire and upgrade. Kind of hard to not laugh out loud in class when reading it.

jtsastre
05-24-2018, 09:55 PM
wait, you guys can actually vote no? I thought the 'vote' was just a charade to make you feel better about 'participating'

Jeez, give it a rest. Theyíre non-union, we get it. The world still turns when a company creates an agreement with a NON-UNION pilot group.

Historically, labor unions arenít always the ďend, almighty:Ē American unionized groups tend to have the mentality to be all or none, but one must realize a company can still exist without it.

domino
05-24-2018, 09:59 PM
ive talked to about 8 pilots here and they all say they are going to vote yes to it. They think itís great.

Thatís how lame many of them are.

Paid2fly
05-24-2018, 11:42 PM
ive talked to about 8 pilots here and they all say they are going to vote yes to it. They think itís great.

Thatís how lame many of them are.







Where were these heavy volume Kool-Aid drinkers based, and what exactly did they think was so great(the continuation of below the rate of inflation increases locked in for many years)?:confused::confused::eek:

Winston
05-25-2018, 12:32 AM
12+ year SkyWest alum here. Bailed 3 years ago to fly the friendly skies. Really enjoyed my time there and worked my butt off but had zero illusions about what it was and what my future prospects were.

My 100% unsolicited advice is to vote no, then vote no, then vote no again: It will not make any difference but at least you’ll further expose the absurdity that system represents. In my time there I saw SKYW fall behind industry average and then watched management unilaterally imposed pay INCREASES to catch up. Same thing with new hire pay and bonuses: they are dangling possible increases at their own discretion knowing full well they can do anything at any time and that they will be commended by some 25% of the pilot group for being so enlightened to do so. It’s all a farce. SkyWest pilots have no leverage outside of the staffing and economic pressures facing the industry as a whole and these occasional “pay package” routines are for show only.

I also watched those provisions in the pilot agreement disappear: new hire pay, single occupancy lodging... To quote Brad Holt to the new hire class after mine in 2003 after announcing that they would not be paid during training, “If you have a problem with that, there’s the door.”

The pilots of SkyWest Airlines have never had a better hand to play than they do now, and to sell yourselves so short, under such massively fortuitous conditions, would be incredibly short-sighted.

Shoot this thing down. Then: Fly a lot, upgrade ASAP, apply and get on with any of the Big 3, SWA, or FDX/UPS. Don’t settle for anything less for the remainder of your career, and don’t succumb to Stockholm Syndrome while you’re there.

Winston
EMB-120 & CRJ LCA
FAT, ORD, SFO

hawk21
05-25-2018, 01:50 AM
So whatís at stake if this crap gets voted down? We lose airplanes? We lose contracts? No new bases? Whatís the spin the company is putting on this one?

WesternSkies
05-25-2018, 05:13 AM
Thank you Winston.
& Hawk21- good catch. I didnít realize there is no ďor elseĒ rider attached to this pay package. (It might pass that assuredly).

msprj2
05-25-2018, 05:18 AM
Skywest last contact just a year ago was passed knowing what Endeavor pay rates were probably going to be. Yet it still passed. Again knowing what the Endeavors rates you guys are seriously going to under cut
The regional industry again. Also hurting mainline pilots ability to negotiate future raises because of short sightedness. Wonderful!

WesternSkies
05-25-2018, 06:16 AM
Kind of odd that you didnít say this about republic and they actually negotiated after 9e

You might be happier if you can get past your SkyWest issues.

MidnightHauler
05-25-2018, 08:50 AM
I worked there for 7 years and have no idea wtf you are talking about.
It's true. First day of upgrade ground school is about "Leadership" and this is presented.

MidnightHauler
05-25-2018, 09:02 AM
12+ year SkyWest alum here. Bailed 3 years ago to fly the friendly skies. Really enjoyed my time there and worked my butt off but had zero illusions about what it was and what my future prospects were.

My 100% unsolicited advice is to vote no, then vote no, then vote no again: It will not make any difference but at least youíll further expose the absurdity that system represents. In my time there I saw SKYW fall behind industry average and then watched management unilaterally imposed pay INCREASES to catch up. Same thing with new hire pay and bonuses: they are dangling possible increases at their own discretion knowing full well they can do anything at any time and that they will be commended by some 25% of the pilot group for being so enlightened to do so. Itís all a farce. SkyWest pilots have no leverage outside of the staffing and economic pressures facing the industry as a whole and these occasional ďpay packageĒ routines are for show only.

I also watched those provisions in the pilot agreement disappear: new hire pay, single occupancy lodging... To quote Brad Holt to the new hire class after mine in 2003 after announcing that they would not be paid during training, ďIf you have a problem with that, thereís the door.Ē

The pilots of SkyWest Airlines have never had a better hand to play than they do now, and to sell yourselves so short, under such massively fortuitous conditions, would be incredibly short-sighted.

Shoot this thing down. Then: Fly a lot, upgrade ASAP, apply and get on with any of the Big 3, SWA, or FDX/UPS. Donít settle for anything less for the remainder of your career, and donít succumb to Stockholm Syndrome while youíre there.

Winston
EMB-120 & CRJ LCA
FAT, ORD, SFO
Well said and great advice, Winston!

CBreezy
05-25-2018, 10:59 AM
Skywest last contact just a year ago was passed knowing what Endeavor pay rates were probably going to be. Yet it still passed. Again knowing what the Endeavors rates you guys are seriously going to under cut
The regional industry again. Also hurting mainline pilots ability to negotiate future raises because of short sightedness. Wonderful!

I thought the justification last time to vote in substandard rates was if they voted no, they couldn't bring more flying in because of known costs... Or something. Add yet, a year later, they come again to the table to offer more pay. What happened about unknown costs and needing to be cheap to get flying.

MinFlyer
05-25-2018, 11:08 AM
When does the vote close?

hawk21
05-25-2018, 11:27 AM
When does the vote close?

End of June. June 24 I believe.

Check Complete
05-25-2018, 11:52 AM
The vote is a pointless gesture.

It will pass, management and SAPA have it designed, controlled, and rigged.

This is a disgrace!

hawk21
05-25-2018, 01:43 PM
Vote this garbage back into the depths of hell it was created in.

tunes
05-25-2018, 02:41 PM
Jeez, give it a rest. Theyíre non-union, we get it. The world still turns when a company creates an agreement with a NON-UNION pilot group.



Historically, labor unions arenít always the ďend, almighty:Ē American unionized groups tend to have the mentality to be all or none, but one must realize a company can still exist without it.



I think you missed the point. It has nothing to do with unions and more of the fsctskywest doesn't have a real contract and does that have to vote anything in. The company can say this is what you get and that's what they get.


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iahflyr
05-25-2018, 02:52 PM
Can someone post the details?

savedbythevnav
05-25-2018, 03:12 PM
Can someone post the details?

Here you go (https://ufile.io/q1hjm)

Cefiro
05-25-2018, 03:14 PM
The vote is a pointless gesture.

It will pass, management and SAPA have it designed, controlled, and rigged.

This is a disgrace!

Not sure itís rigged, but youíre right....it will pass. FOs want the $$ now and most wont care about the CA pay rate 2 years from now. Hopefully enough CAs will actually vote to counter the newbies.

savedbythevnav
05-25-2018, 03:18 PM
Not sure itís rigged, but youíre right....it will pass. FOs want the $$ now and most wont care about the CA pay rate 2 years from now. Hopefully enough CAs will actually vote to counter the newbies.

I'm a first year FO and have zero intention of voting yes unless the Captains are also fairly taken care of.

Getting rid of the bonuses is bull**** and there's zero QOL in this TA because our student council didn't think that was important.

flight81
05-25-2018, 05:02 PM
FO with a NO vote....No improvement for QOL...

Simpsons
05-25-2018, 06:07 PM
What kind of QOL are you guys looking for? If it’s more reserves to allow for more flexibility keep dreaming. An increase in pilots will only to an increase in flying, we’ll never be adequately staffed from the pilots’ perspective.

Tippy
05-25-2018, 06:12 PM
Im a 3rd year FO also a no vote for reasons already mentioned. I would however be curious to hear from people who are considering a yes vote and why? and please nobody jump their Sh*t. I seriously am curious what people have to say. I think there are a lot of people out there that will vote yes but are too afraid to speak their opinion for fear of backlash. That's exactly how the last TA got voted in, and why we have Trump for president and people were so shocked about both. Although I am only happy about one of those things, I dont want another one to happen. Please yes voters lets hear it. I honestly want to hear another side.

zondaracer
05-25-2018, 10:19 PM
I thought the justification last time to vote in substandard rates was if they voted no, they couldn't bring more flying in because of known costs... Or something. Add yet, a year later, they come again to the table to offer more pay. What happened about unknown costs and needing to be cheap to get flying.

The way it was explained to be by a former SAPA guy is that pay rates have to be presented when the company bids on new flying. Once the flying is awarded, you can change the costs/payrates but the CPA is already set.

word302
05-25-2018, 10:38 PM
Skywest last contact just a year ago was passed knowing what Endeavor pay rates were probably going to be. Yet it still passed. Again knowing what the Endeavors rates you guys are seriously going to under cut
The regional industry again. Also hurting mainline pilots ability to negotiate future raises because of short sightedness. Wonderful!

Uhhhh. We havenít voted yet.

E6BAV8R
05-26-2018, 09:12 AM
Not sure itís rigged, but youíre right....it will pass. FOs want the $$ now and most wont care about the CA pay rate 2 years from now. Hopefully enough CAs will actually vote to counter the newbies.

I hope you're wrong. As an FO I will vote No. I haven't talked to anyone yet, CA or FO, that even thinks it is a remotely decent proposal.

DelTacoBowl
05-26-2018, 09:25 AM
TKR was voted in as region 1 rep. He struck me as a kind of FU candidate (thats why I voted for him). I wonder if this is indicative in a shift in attitude towards the company and SAPA? Guess just wishful thinking that the 5-10 yr CA's have finally had enough and will come out and vote in numbers.

Bonanzer
05-26-2018, 09:27 AM
I hope you're wrong. As an FO I will vote No. I haven't talked to anyone yet, CA or FO, that even thinks it is a remotely decent proposal.

Good to hear from an outsider. Hope yall make the correct move. Since it sounds like a union drive is imminent, I would be concerned about this deal allowing your management to drag out a cba once the union is voted in.

EngineOut
05-26-2018, 09:30 AM
Senior folks will vote yes...looks good for the 20+ year 175 CAs

Junior folks will vote yes.

It is the midrange seniority FOs and CRJ CAs who get hosed with this.

I am just wondering how they will fiddle with the hour limit and duty rig.

WesternSkies
05-26-2018, 09:53 AM
Senior folks will vote yes...looks good for the 20+ year 175 CAs

Junior folks will vote yes.

It is the midrange seniority FOs and CRJ CAs who get hosed with this.

I am just wondering how they will fiddle with the hour limit and duty rig.

TG sent out an email explaining the duty rig with a non-answer. So reassuring that was not.

I was a sheepish no at first glance but without a bi-annual payment to captains over a timeline that equals 30k, and not meeting Republic 2020 total compensation (not pay rates, I wouldnít trade our 401k for theirs) Iím not entertaining this offer anymore.

gainzbruh
05-26-2018, 10:45 AM
Im a 3rd year FO also a no vote for reasons already mentioned. I would however be curious to hear from people who are considering a yes vote and why? and please nobody jump their Sh*t. I seriously am curious what people have to say. I think there are a lot of people out there that will vote yes but are too afraid to speak their opinion for fear of backlash. That's exactly how the last TA got voted in, and why we have Trump for president and people were so shocked about both. Although I am only happy about one of those things, I dont want another one to happen. Please yes voters lets hear it. I honestly want to hear another side.

Iím voting yes because as soon as i hit 999.9 TPIC MAINLINE WILL CALL!!

amcnd
05-26-2018, 10:53 AM
Im usually very up beet. ďCompany lineĒ type guy as you all know... maybe because I donít have any fight left in me or i know this wont effect me long run. But my take on this whole pay package for the 5+ year pilots is the ďfutureĒ paychecks...how do you want to be paid. Same as now.. lower then the top regionals but get bonuses to match ďtotal compensationĒ. Or want second to top industry rates and no bonus... the 125/150% i feel will help maybe 2-3 months out of the ear for maybe 5hrs.. 401k. Just max out faster but still not solving a true retirement problem. And the duty rig is worded very unclear.. Itís a no brainer yes for the 0-3 year guys...

Flymeaway
05-26-2018, 11:45 AM
I donít see how itís a no brainer for 0-3 year guys with a loss of 1-2% per year to inflation.

amcnd
05-26-2018, 11:53 AM
I donít see how itís a no brainer for 0-3 year guys with a loss of 1-2% per year to inflation.

Because we have been talking about ďinflationĒ at the regional level for 22 years.!! (Atleast my time) and it will never happen...

Bassetjet
05-26-2018, 11:55 AM
Im usually very up beet. “Company line” type guy as you all know... maybe because I don’t have any fight left in me or i know this wont effect me long run. But my take on this whole pay package for the 5+ year pilots is the “future” paychecks...how do you want to be paid. Same as now.. lower then the top regionals but get bonuses to match “total compensation”. Or want second to top industry rates and no bonus... the 125/150% i feel will help maybe 2-3 months out of the ear for maybe 5hrs.. 401k. Just max out faster but still not solving a true retirement problem. And the duty rig is worded very unclear.. It’s a no brainer yes for the 0-3 year guys...

As a 1-3 year guy, this TA will give me a 2% pay cut with inflation. Definitely a no vote for everyone already with the company. This company has zero interest in giving anyone a raise. Complete smoke and mirrors so they can offer hiring bonuses with the pilots approval. This TA should never have been sent to the pilots to vote. Sapa should have dragged this out but they are corrupt bought and paid for puppets.

Flymeaway
05-26-2018, 02:09 PM
Because we have been talking about ďinflationĒ at the regional level for 22 years.!! (Atleast my time) and it will never happen...

Perhaps weíve never seen it before, but then again up until now, weíve all been going to the regional with the lowest pay, because that was always the one with the quickest upgrade to get to the majors. Thatís no longer the case.

trip
05-26-2018, 03:25 PM
Senior folks will vote yes...looks good for the 20+ year 175 CAs

Junior folks will vote yes.

It is the midrange seniority FOs and CRJ CAs who get hosed with this.

I am just wondering how they will fiddle with the hour limit and duty rig.

1> Why will seniors vote yes? they're giving up the tax free discretionary 410K contributions for +2% for a total of 12% 401K match that you will need to contribute into to get?
2> Agree
3>Just be assured they will. They language in the way it's being presented is full of holes, intentionally I suspect.

Is offline
05-26-2018, 04:30 PM
1> Why will seniors vote yes? they're giving up the tax free discretionary 410K contributions for +2% for a total of 12% 401K match that you will need to contribute into to get?
2> Agree
3>Just be assured they will. They language in the way it's being presented is full of holes, intentionally I suspect.

What I really donít understand about this company or new pilots is they should be getting that 12%. 12% of peanuts is very little yet it will help out 20 years from now tremendously.

savedbythevnav
05-26-2018, 04:57 PM
3>Just be assured they will. They language in the way it's being presented is full of holes, intentionally I suspect.

One of the biggest flaws in the company's relationship with SAPA is this. I've talked to quite a few reps on the many loopholes found in policy. SAPA has asked the company in the past to fund contract lawyers, it was turned down. The company responded saying something along the lines of "we won't take advantage of you guys, so that is not necessary."

You have the average joe writing these policies. None of them are contract lawyers, nor do I expect them to be.

I'd rather just pay 2% in dues and have NMB recognized representation with professional lawyers and negotiators providing insight. That seems more beneficial in the long run seeing as SAPA cannot function properly.

rickair7777
05-26-2018, 05:30 PM
What I really donít understand about this company or new pilots is they should be getting that 12%. 12% of peanuts is very little yet it will help out 20 years from now tremendously.


None of the noobs expect to stay at OO, and 95% are likely correct in their assumptions.

rickair7777
05-26-2018, 05:31 PM
That seems more beneficial in the long run seeing as SAPA cannot function properly.


SAPA functions just fine, Ask RJ and SGU.

savedbythevnav
05-26-2018, 05:34 PM
SAPA functions just fine, Ask RJ and SGU.

RJ is a company man. Nothing more, nothing less. During the last round of pay talks for our current TA, him and all of SAPA agreed that they would settle for nothing less than a 5% raise. Then, the second MT goes "Well, we're thinking more along the lines of 1.5%" he just shakes his head yes and goes "Oh yeah, I could totally get on board with that." Meanwhile, all of the reps in the room are looking at him going "WTF?"

He is hands down the worst thing to happen to SAPA.

Excargodog
05-26-2018, 06:30 PM
Perhaps weíve never seen it before, but then again up until now, weíve all been going to the regional with the lowest pay, because that was always the one with the quickest upgrade to get to the majors. Thatís no longer the case.

CPI rose 2.5 percent over the 12 months ending January 2017. February 17, 2017.
From January 2016 to January 2017, the Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) all items index rose 2.5 percent, the largest 12-month increase since March 2012.

https://www.bls.gov/opub/ted/2017/cpi-rose-2-point-5-percent-over-the-12-months-ending-january-2017.htm

EngineOut
05-26-2018, 08:18 PM
1> Why will seniors vote yes? they're giving up the tax free discretionary 410K contributions for +2% for a total of 12% 401K match that you will need to contribute into to get?
2> Agree
3>Just be assured they will. They language in the way it's being presented is full of holes, intentionally I suspect.

Because it is more consideration than they have been given in past proposals (sans the last one). Hefty pay increase, keep the PPS and another 401k match increase. If I was still there at that seniority level, I would prolly vote yes. Year 12-13 payscale (I would have been at) would make the decision to move on a "little" harder, but am happy I don't have to deal with it. Good luck y'all, still checking in, tho.

Paid2fly
05-27-2018, 01:29 AM
,Because it is more consideration than they have been given in past proposals (sans the last one). Hefty pay increase, keep the PPS and another 401k match increase. If I was still there at that seniority level, I would prolly vote yes. Year 12-13 payscale (I would have been at) would make the decision to move on a "little" harder, but am happy I don't have to deal with it. Good luck y'all, still checking in, tho.






There are no "hefty pay increases", once you account for the removal of quarterly bonuses, as well as the discretionary 401K contribution the initial increase for senior end is about 3%, and then nothing the coming year and then below inflation rate every year thereafter. If you compare them, it is well below what Republic and Endeavor currently have.

word302
05-27-2018, 08:12 AM
,






There are no "hefty pay increases", once you account for the removal of quarterly bonuses, as well as the discretionary 401K contribution the initial increase for senior end is about 3%, and then nothing the coming year and then below inflation rate every year thereafter. If you compare them, it is well below what Republic and Endeavor currently have.

It actually pencils out to a pay cut for most captains.

amcnd
05-27-2018, 08:43 AM
It actually pencils out to a pay cut for most captains.

Explain....??

hawk21
05-27-2018, 09:20 AM
I hope you're wrong. As an FO I will vote No. I haven't talked to anyone yet, CA or FO, that even thinks it is a remotely decent proposal.

That was the same impression from last year.

savedbythevnav
05-27-2018, 09:34 AM
Explain....??

Loss of bonuses, discretionary 401k, the yearly raises don't keep up with inflation (which is where a lot of the loss of bonuses yield a net loss in many cases).

SAPA also decided to leave out the 2019/2020 comparison with RAH because it showed us ~$10/hour behind them.

trip
05-27-2018, 11:08 AM
Explain....??

The only unknown is how profitable the CO will be going forward under the new tax plan.
Would the financial rewards exceed the modest 3% hourly gain for most Captains?
The 5.18 value assigned to PPS nobody can pencil out. 2017 was assigned 4$ but I only received 3$ per hour credit?
I can't put any value to the 125/150 & 2:1 override due the loose language, we've just seen the CO drive a truck through the proffering debacle and constant policy reinterpretations.

They dropped the ball on the last package in 2017, why screw around with this one? Just put us at the top, not third. Let's attract the best and start filling classes again.

Utah
05-27-2018, 12:08 PM
This is a $10 an hour change to the payscale for me. However, in 2017 the 401k contribution and qtrly bonus were worth $8 an hour and I'm scheduled to get another $1 an hour next January. It's a $1 an hour increase with some extra in the PPS. It also locks in captain rates for another 4 years since the company can raise FO rates without pilot approval. The 1% increase to the scale in 2020 and 2021 don't keep up with inflation.

Meanwhile those that don't work here yet and those that haven't been here all that long see significant increases. Yeah I want newhires to get $50 an hour and a $30k bonus, but if all you are offering me is a $1 or 2 after 18+ years, it seems like a big FU. Therefore, it's a NO vote.

The 2% extra in the 401k is only going to make up for the loss of the discretionary contribution for the 20+ year guys.

rickair7777
05-27-2018, 05:26 PM
It actually pencils out to a pay cut for most captains.


I'll give them credit for one thing... if I were in it for the long-term, I'd take hard hourly rates in exchange for bonuses, which can fluctuate. Even at a small loss.

word302
05-27-2018, 05:31 PM
Explain....??

I ran the numbers. With the supposed 17% increase we were receiving to discretionary 401k and financial rewards, as well as the 1% raise we are no longer getting in January, I will actually make less under this BS offer.

word302
05-27-2018, 05:33 PM
I'll give them credit for one thing... if I were in it for the long-term, I'd take hard hourly rates in exchange for bonuses, which can fluctuate. Even at a small loss.

Yeah but I'm not handing them all the recruiting tools they need for the next 3 to 5 years without getting something in return.

amcnd
05-27-2018, 05:50 PM
I ran the numbers. With the supposed 17% increase we were receiving to discretionary 401k and financial rewards, as well as the 1% raise we are no longer getting in January, I will actually make less under this BS offer.

Iíve never heard about a 17% increase in discretionanry 401k funds. Thats once a year and at the discretion of the BOD.. 17% increases in financial rewards is all subjective to how much SkyWest makes... the first bonus under the new tax law, was less then 3 out of the 4 bonus checks last year... hard to say how that will pan out..

Paid2fly
05-28-2018, 12:43 AM
It actually pencils out to a pay cut for most captains.







I realize that, was just using the companies "math" for the whopping 3% supposed increase. As you say, in reality it seems to "pencil out" to null or probably a pay cut depending on just how senior you are.

trip
05-28-2018, 05:16 AM
Iíve never heard about a 17% increase in discretionanry 401k funds. Thats once a year and at the discretion of the BOD.. 17% increases in financial rewards is all subjective to how much SkyWest makes... the first bonus under the new tax law, was less then 3 out of the 4 bonus checks last year... hard to say how that will pan out..

Itís in bulletin 2018-4, dated 15 feb, discretionary 401K added 17%.
Also note Q1 2018 financial reward was +25% over Q1 2017. We should wait and see what Q2 will be.

WesternSkies
05-28-2018, 06:10 AM
The average discretionary payout was how small??
Iíd guess $100.
It isnít an issue for over half this airline.

word302
05-28-2018, 09:00 AM
The average discretionary payout was how small??
I’d guess $100.
It isn’t an issue for over half this airline.

It all adds up. Point is, management and SAPA are selling this as a big raise and once again using fuzzy math to do it. It isn’t. Vote no.

WesternSkies
05-28-2018, 09:44 AM
It all adds up. Point is, management and SAPA are selling this as a big raise and once again using fuzzy math to do it. It isnít. Vote no.

You made a good point earlier (think it was you) that the next 1% raise is wiped out which makes this even more of a hidden disappointment.

rickair7777
05-28-2018, 11:52 AM
Yeah but I'm not handing them all the recruiting tools they need for the next 3 to 5 years without getting something in return.




I wouldn't either. That's all you've got.

StevenHall
05-28-2018, 12:21 PM
Is there any assurance that the voting results from the sketchy website are being accurately reported to the pilot group/company?

Excargodog
05-28-2018, 12:31 PM
Current US Inflation Rates: 2008-2018
The current inflation rate for the United States is 2.5% for the 12 months ended April 2018, as published on May 10, 2018 by the U.S. Labor Department. The next update is scheduled for release on June 12, 2018 at 8:30 a.m. ET. It will offer the rate of inflation over the 12 months ended May 2018.

The chart, graph and table below displays annual US inflation rates for calendar years 2008-2018. Rates of inflation are calculated using the latest Consumer Price Index which is published monthly by the Labor Departmentís Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS). For 2018, the most recent inflation monthly data (12-month based) is used in the chart and graph.

Historical inflation rates are available from 1914-2018. If you would like to calculate accumulated rates between different dates, the US Inflation Calculator will do that quickly.

Current US Inflation Rates: 2008-2018 | US Inflation Calculator (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/)

Check Complete
05-28-2018, 02:04 PM
Is there any assurance that the voting results from the sketchy website are being accurately reported to the pilot group/company?

No, the same group of people shoving this down our throats are the same group running the vote.

Make no mistake, this turd will pass!

03sport007
05-28-2018, 03:11 PM
No, the same group of people shoving this down our throats are the same group running the vote.

Make no mistake, this turd will pass!

How are they shoving this down our throats?

Check Complete
05-28-2018, 04:18 PM
How are they shoving this down our throats?

The typical song and dance road show by the Executive Board at each domicile. Management pays these guys 110 hours a month to sell their stuff. They expect results.

When management spends millions a year on a marketing system (SAPA) the vote needs to move their direction.

Or you could have self representation like a collective union to look after your pilot group that costs you less than 2% or you can lose 10, 15, 20% in income and crap work rules?

We have made our bed....you know the rest.

03sport007
05-28-2018, 06:29 PM
The typical song and dance road show by the Executive Board at each domicile. Management pays these guys 110 hours a month to sell their stuff. They expect results.

When management spends millions a year on a marketing system (SAPA) the vote needs to move their direction.

Or you could have self representation like a collective union to look after your pilot group that costs you less than 2% or you can lose 10, 15, 20% in income and crap work rules?

We have made our bed....you know the rest.

You mean roadshows where they answer any questions I might have? How is that ramming it down my throat?

Your right Skywest pilots have made their beds but it doesnít look 20 percent different from a Union bed.

Bartender
05-28-2018, 06:32 PM
On the XJT side we are all getting anywhere from 21500k to 25000k bonuses this year on top of pay. Our pay is marketing schedule or actual...Not that historical block. Our soft time isnít based on 50 seat rates. Our vacation is based on 4 hours of schedule credit per day AND only having to credit 65 hours in a vacation month.

What is SAPA doing for you?

03sport007
05-28-2018, 06:40 PM
On the XJT side we are all getting anywhere from 21500k to 25000k bonuses this year on top of pay. Our pay is marketing schedule or actual...Not that historical block. Our soft time isnít based on 50 seat rates. Our vacation is based on 4 hours of schedule credit per day AND only having to credit 65 hours in a vacation month.

What is SAPA doing for you?

Thatís GREAT! Personally SAPA hasnít done anything for me.

Air Stang 7
05-28-2018, 08:50 PM
What is SAPA doing for you?
Validating my decision to not go to SkyWest.

Check Complete
05-29-2018, 02:26 AM
You mean roadshows where they answer any questions I might have? How is that ramming it down my throat?

Your right Skywest pilots have made their beds but it doesnít look 20 percent different from a Union bed.

Not sure how long you have been with SkyWest but please enjoy your YES vote, and hopefully, you will have no regrets. One TA voted and passed many years ago which was overall a concessionary deal. By the opening bell the next morning we had a huge contract agreed to with UAL.

After 20+ years of time here, I see this as one of the worst offers ever presented. As a former rep I'm fully aware of company expectations in these type of matters.

The language within some of the sub proposals in this TA, if taken by word, is as disingenuous as I've ever seen. And based on the education of our current reps, these aspects could be reasoned and exploited against us. The latest reserve proffering system is a clear signal that the company will go to any length to placate their will towards their greed.

I would happily pay a sub 2% to balance negotiations.

rickair7777
05-29-2018, 05:45 AM
On the XJT side we are all getting anywhere from 21500k to 25000k bonuses this year on top of pay. Our pay is marketing schedule or actual...Not that historical block. Our soft time isn’t based on 50 seat rates. Our vacation is based on 4 hours of schedule credit per day AND only having to credit 65 hours in a vacation month.

What is SAPA doing for you?


But honestly, you're also on the long-term COMAIR plan. Pick your poison.

The only way to win the regional game is to not play.

amcnd
05-29-2018, 05:53 AM
But honestly, you're also on the long-term COMAIR plan. Pick your poison.

The only way to win the regional game is to not play.

And we have a winner!!! After 20+ years i wish i would have had game over a long time ago.. we will never have all the ďperksĒ of the majors. PS family passes, true retirement, ect..

03sport007
05-29-2018, 05:57 AM
Not sure how long you have been with SkyWest but please enjoy your YES vote, and hopefully, you will have no regrets. One TA voted and passed many years ago which was overall a concessionary deal. By the opening bell the next morning we had a huge contract agreed to with UAL.

After 20+ years of time here, I see this as one of the worst offers ever presented. As a former rep I'm fully aware of company expectations in these type of matters.

The language within some of the sub proposals in this TA, if taken by word, is as disingenuous as I've ever seen. And based on the education of our current reps, these aspects could be reasoned and exploited against us. The latest reserve proffering system is a clear signal that the company will go to any length to placate their will towards their greed.

I would happily pay a sub 2% to balance negotiations.

No where did I say I was voting yes? I was just pointing out that I didnít see how this was being jammed down my throat.

What in this agreement is disingenuous?

I agree that to balance negotiations you need to have a unified pilot group.

03sport007
05-29-2018, 05:59 AM
But honestly, you're also on the long-term COMAIR plan. Pick your poison.

The only way to win the regional game is to not play.

Agreed 100 percent!!!!!!

Bonanzer
05-29-2018, 08:46 AM
You mean roadshows where they answer any questions I might have? How is that ramming it down my throat?

Your right Skywest pilots have made their beds but it doesnít look 20 percent different from a Union bed.

Iíd say total compensation is 20% less then the top union regionals. Itís not all pay rates. You donít have true block or better. Your 2020 captain rates are around $10 less then Republic and endeavor. Skywest has the WORST sick and vacation accrual in the industry. Do yourself a favor, vote this down, get a real union, and negotiate a real cba.

03sport007
05-29-2018, 09:38 AM
I’d say total compensation is 20% less then the top union regionals. It’s not all pay rates. You don’t have true block or better. Your 2020 captain rates are around $10 less then Republic and endeavor. Skywest has the WORST sick and vacation accrual in the industry. Do yourself a favor, vote this down, get a real union, and negotiate a real cba.

Show me the math and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

I agree its not all pay rates. So if you include the guaranteed PPS(does Republic get that?) there is 6.6 percent difference in 2020 at 1 YOS and .5 percent difference at year 18. What is Republics 401K match? SkyWest proposed rates are 1 to 4 percent better.

The WORST Sick and vacation in the industry? Haven't taken the time to look into that. Enlighten me.



And thanks for the advice!!

Bonanzer
05-29-2018, 09:33 PM
Show me the math and I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong.

I agree its not all pay rates. So if you include the guaranteed PPS(does Republic get that?) there is 6.6 percent difference in 2020 at 1 YOS and .5 percent difference at year 18. What is Republics 401K match? SkyWest proposed rates are 1 to 4 percent better.

The WORST Sick and vacation in the industry? Haven't taken the time to look into that. Enlighten me.



And thanks for the advice!!

The information I have shows Skywest vacation+sick hours to be between .5 and 4 hours per month less then all other regionals. The average would be around 2 hrs less at all longevity. I would hope sapa would have given you a breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses of your agreement compared to the industry but apparently that isnít necessary.

The lack of actual block or better still amazes me. It would be difficult to quantify but pilots I know at Skywest say the historic block really hurts their credit.

Itís good to see that the 401k is industry leading.

The pps is nice but why not just put it in rates? It being worth $5.18hr seems like some funny math. Even with that value its below Republic and endeavor in 2020.

Check Complete
05-30-2018, 03:06 AM
A comparison from another forum for SkyWest to Republic, the Paid Days Off (per year) ranged from .24 at year 1, to 6.53 at year 13, and then to 3.84 days off at year 20. These are accrual rates for both sick time and vaca time combined. Republic clearly exceeds SkyWest in this metric.

The comparison from credit to block at SkyWest was determined to be just barely under 6%, but was slowly increasing. This comparison was done nearly a year ago. For Republic there is union oversight to determine the actual differences from credit to block, at SkyWest there is no oversight other than what the company dictates. When I look at schedules for my domicile, it is very rare to see any trip segments that are historically credited more than marketing block. In certain cases I've seen a 4 day trip that marketing blocked over 4 hours more than the credit block. Again, we are paid credit or better.

In another example, if one was to dead head from SLC to ORD on mainline, they would make 24 minutes of pay greater than if they flew it themselves. Granted, we do get paid 100% dead head pay. Another example was in a new city pair from a major domicile to a Mexico destination, the credit was exactly 59 minutes less than the marketing block.

So obviously, when comparing just hourly rates from one carrier to another there are numerous elements that need to be considered to what a person can expect to be paid. This is where the sales pitch comes in from SAPA and the company to the pilots directly and there really isn't a vehicle to communicate this information of what's really going on.

For the company's sake it's usually a very easy task to sell.....

03sport007
05-30-2018, 05:24 AM
The information I have shows Skywest vacation+sick hours to be between .5 and 4 hours per month less then all other regionals. The average would be around 2 hrs less at all longevity. I would hope sapa would have given you a breakdown of the strengths and weaknesses of your agreement compared to the industry but apparently that isnít necessary.

I think you proved my point. .5 less sic and vac doesnít sound like 20 percent to me?

The lack of actual block or better still amazes me. It would be difficult to quantify but pilots I know at Skywest say the historic block really hurts their credit.

SkyWest pilots get paid actual block or ďcreditĒ. Yes sometimes listed credit is less then block. Youíll get no argument from me. That is some funky chicken!! But we do get paid the higher of actual flight time or published credit.

Itís good to see that the 401k is industry leading.



The pps is nice but why not just put it in rates? It being worth $5.18hr seems like some funny math. Even with that value its below Republic and endeavor in 2020..

Prove the funny math statement? Again less but not 20 percent less?

Iím not arguing who has the better contract/working agreement. Someone said SkyWest pilots get 20 percent less and I was just pointing out I didnít think thatís true.

Anyway good luck to you. I hope we all move on to greener pastures!!

Bonanzer
05-30-2018, 06:08 AM
.

Prove the funny math statement? Again less but not 20 percent less?

Iím not arguing who has the better contract/working agreement. Someone said SkyWest pilots get 20 percent less and I was just pointing out I didnít think thatís true.

Anyway good luck to you. I hope we all move on to greener pastures!!

Did they come up with the 5.18 based on min credit or average line value? .5 less pdo is the low end while the high end is 4 less a month when compared to the industry leaders. I would think an adjustment to industry standard is in order.
I would imagine the historical block will become a big issue for your colleagues in lga due to the typically inflated scheduled block.

Anyway it seems the common issue with the poor bargaining history is sapa. Hope you guys fix the problem.

WesternSkies
05-30-2018, 08:25 AM
SAPA?
Our pilots are ultimately the ones that are saying yes.
As much as Iíd want for SAPA to have not sent this out to all the yes men, there isnít anything in it inherently dangerous to our group to be protected from.
Itís up to the pilots to send a message back. (80/20 we wonít)
It would be unethical for SAPA to stonewall a deal pilots (might) favor by a majority.

Skyhawk121
05-30-2018, 10:00 AM
SAPA?
Our pilots are ultimately the ones that are saying yes.
As much as Iíd want for SAPA to have not sent this out to all the yes men, there isnít anything in it inherently dangerous to our group to be protected from.
Itís up to the pilots to send a message back. (80/20 we wonít)
It would be unethical for SAPA to stonewall a deal pilots (might) favor by a majority.

While it may not be the popular opinion with some people on these forums, I do agree with the statement by WesternSkies.

Nothing will ever be popular with everyone.

rickair7777
05-30-2018, 10:42 AM
While it may not be the popular opinion with some people on these forums, I do agree with the statement by WesternSkies.

Nothing will ever be popular with everyone.


Begs the question is it a Republic or a Democracy? The answer might be different depending on the issue at hand.

If it's a Republic, the elected group should use their superior wisdom to do what's best for the pilot group, even if the pilot group can't see the forest for the trees.

If it's a Democracy, the reps should just translate the legal-eeze and ensure everybody understands what it all means before they vote.

Skyhawk121
05-30-2018, 11:09 AM
Well in a pure democracy, the popular vote wins. In theory, the reps should be translating and making sure everyone has the info they need to make an educated vote. If it were a republic, the regional reps would essentially be able to cast a vote on behalf of the region they represent, similar to how a US president can lose the popular vote but still be elected because they get the electoral college votes.

So I think it should be viewed as a democracy rather than a republic.

rickair7777
05-30-2018, 11:13 AM
Well in a pure democracy, the popular vote wins. In theory, the reps should be translating and making sure everyone has the info they need to make an educated vote. If it were a republic, the regional reps would essentially be able to cast a vote on behalf of the region they represent, similar to how a US president can lose the popular vote but still be elected because they get the electoral college votes.

So I think it should be viewed as a democracy rather than a republic.

In the case of pay, yes the rules specify a Democracy, ie everybody votes. The question is how much "filtering" should the reps provide before they forward a TA for vote?

Certain other (non-pay) issues can be approved by the reps, ie Republic style.

Check Complete
05-30-2018, 11:57 AM
Begs the question is it a Republic or a Democracy? The answer might be different depending on the issue at hand.

If it's a Republic, the elected group should use their superior wisdom to do what's best for the pilot group, even if the pilot group can't see the forest for the trees.

If it's a Democracy, the reps should just translate the legal-eeze and ensure everybody understands what it all means before they vote.

In my view I guess it should be a bit of both. The reps are there with the background knowledge (hopefully) to see what we can get. I would have hoped that this TA would have been an easy yes or no. I was disappointed that this TA was forwarded to the pilot group, to me it needed more refinement. Again in my view, there's a lot being left on the table, especially when Envoy just announced today a $45,000.00 signing bonus for pilots with 121 time. Ya, 45 grand! So in this case the reps should have denied this package to the pilot group and develop something better. For the life of me I cannot understand the rush to vote on this, time is on our side as pilot numbers are only dwindling. Who cares, put it retroactive to last month?

But our management is very savvy and they are usually correct that while this TA is about 20% overall low, they can make up for it with some slick sales calls and win the vote. The fact that our SAPA president along with high upper management are touring the domiciles together to help sell this completely disgusts me. The fact that our SAPA president is now trolling the forums and answering questions, which he should be doing as part of his 110 hours a month salary from the company anyways, unbelievable! The language in this TA is vague, already the SAPA president is saying one thing while the VP of Ops is saying another.

So this representation we have has failed us again, exactly like our leadership and management has designed. To say we are being played like fools is an understatement.

WaterRooster
05-30-2018, 12:13 PM
Realistically the pilot group is too weak to vote No to a bad deal. It will pass at 52% and thatís what the company hopes. We have junior guys that will want the money NOW and will screw themselves as captains and senior folks who think this is still a family company and are here to help the company anyway they can. Itís all about me me me!

Jonneaux
05-30-2018, 12:46 PM
I've been here almost 20 and have voted yes on all but one previous TA, including last years. I just sold all of my SKYW stock and can't wait to vote NO. We will never again have this kind of leverage.

03sport007
05-30-2018, 02:12 PM
I've been here almost 20 and have voted yes on all but one previous TA, including last years. I just sold all of my SKYW stock and can't wait to vote NO. We will never again have this kind of leverage.

Explain to me how we have leverage? I hear people say that but I donít get it?

ImPilot I Fly
05-30-2018, 03:05 PM
Explain to me how we have leverage? I hear people say that but I donít get it?

Less applicants than in the past. Seniority list is shrinking. Other airlines are being paid more. Leverage.

word302
05-30-2018, 03:40 PM
Explain to me how we have leverage? I hear people say that but I donít get it?
Look at what they are trying to offer new hires. If that doesn't reek of desperation I don't know what does. Why do you think the company is coming to the table less than a year after the last offer? They need to look good to potential new hires. They're going to have to pay up if they want me to vote yes. I've been here 4 years and voted no every time. This is the worst deal I've seen yet.

TJBrass
05-30-2018, 03:48 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

WesternSkies
05-30-2018, 04:12 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

What makes you say that?

N1234
05-30-2018, 04:13 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

That is a risk - albeit a very small one.

What is the alternative? Just roll over to whatever is being handed down?

03sport007
05-30-2018, 04:33 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

Thatís my point. They can do what they need/want to do to get people in the door with or without a vote. Doesnít sound like leverage to me?

Leverage comes from a unified labor group I donít see that here?

03sport007
05-30-2018, 04:50 PM
Look at what they are trying to offer new hires. If that doesn't reek of desperation I don't know what does. Why do you think the company is coming to the table less than a year after the last offer? They need to look good to potential new hires. They're going to have to pay up if they want me to vote yes. I've been here 4 years and voted no every time. This is the worst deal I've seen yet.

Thatís great but unless Iím missing something thatís not leverage?

There is no table. Itís them saying what they will and wonít agree to.

They only have to pay to keep pace with the market. Nothing more and nothing less.

Check Complete
05-30-2018, 04:54 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

I pray that happens!

It may be just enough to get rid of our useless representation and use what 55 thousand other pilots use to maintain an equitable employment front.

It would be exactly the best thing that could occur!

03sport007
05-30-2018, 05:03 PM
I pray that happens!

It may be just enough to get rid of our useless representation and use what 55 thousand other pilots use to maintain an equitable employment front.

It would be exactly the best thing that could happen.

You may be right.

Westernflight
05-30-2018, 05:10 PM
The reality is that the vote could be an overwhelming NO, management could say "that's just too bad", and there is nothing that SAPA could do about it.

Personally Iím 100% ok with that. Thereís a reason we are getting this TA now. We have yet to see a profit sharing check with the new corporate tax laws in effect. They know theyíre going to post record numbers and are trying to sell us this increase in income as a raise. They were so adamant about giving us this profit sharing just a bit ago and now they are already trying to take it from the FOs. Weíll all see the same money regardless of how this vote goes. However, if we vote yes, theyíll definitely NOT be coming back to the table within the next 4 years. Theyíll have everything they need to keep recruiting, locking Captains in to subpar rates. Letís wait till September and see how those checks look.

Additionally, notice how the stipulation of increasing FO pay $5/hr says ďat company disgressionĒ. What it doesnít say is how many times they can do this.

hawk21
05-30-2018, 05:17 PM
SGU has people crunching numbers for them. Remember, at SkyWest Airlines, they will only roll out things that benefit the company. With tax reform, ďincorporating the bonuses into hourly ratesĒ actually probably helps the company save money on pilots in the long run while making it look nice on paper.

#VoteNO

701EV
05-31-2018, 05:07 AM
SkyWest Pilots have more leverage than now than you've ever had. Grow a spine and vote NO!

701EV:rolleyes:

word302
05-31-2018, 09:04 AM
SkyWest Pilots have more leverage than now than you've ever had. Grow a spine and vote NO!

701EV:rolleyes:

Grow a spine? 2000 of us voted no last time. You're really not helping, but thanks for the advice.

Skyhawk121
05-31-2018, 09:47 AM
Additionally, notice how the stipulation of increasing FO pay $5/hr says ďat company disgressionĒ. What it doesnít say is how many times they can do this.

I would guess that it is similar to the last TA where they had the option of raising pay for first year FOs from (whatever it was $36.50 to $37.23??). I imagine they want the option to go to $50/hr. for first year FOs if competition gets too crazy, since that is the first year rate at Endeavor. Just my .02 though.

701EV
05-31-2018, 03:13 PM
Grow a spine? 2000 of us voted no last time. You're really not helping, but thanks for the advice.

word302, if I came across condescending that was not my intent. You have more leverage than you've had in a long time.

701EV

rickair7777
05-31-2018, 04:22 PM
I would guess that it is similar to the last TA where they had the option of raising pay for first year FOs from (whatever it was $36.50 to $37.23??). I imagine they want the option to go to $50/hr. for first year FOs if competition gets too crazy, since that is the first year rate at Endeavor. Just my .02 though.

Don't give them that, instead give them the option to raise ALL payscales by 35%.

Check Complete
05-31-2018, 05:01 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/Photograph_of_Mrs._Reagan_speaking_at_a_%22Just_Sa y_No%22_Rally_in_Los_Angeles_-_NARA_-_198584.jpg/170px-Photograph_of_Mrs._Reagan_speaking_at_a_%22Just_Sa y_No%22_Rally_in_Los_Angeles_-_NARA_-_198584.jpg


It worked for Nancy, it will work for you, it will work for all of us!
Thank you and god bless America!

Turbosina
05-31-2018, 09:09 PM
It doesn't matter how people vote. SAPA and the company are the only ones with access to the 'results'. My prediction? It will 'pass' 65 to 35.

DirkDiggler
05-31-2018, 09:58 PM
Wow, so managemt has full control of the results. At least ALPA has some outside company tabulate and certify the votes. They should at least do that.

DashTrash
05-31-2018, 10:33 PM
I didn't think that you guys could have a "TA"? You aren't organized, from a labor standpoint. You only have a Student Council and your company can impose whatever they want, whenever they want. You have no protections! Isn't a vote kinda worthless? Can't your management just say who cares? You should all reconsider ALPA again!!! Good luck!!!

MidnightHauler
05-31-2018, 10:59 PM
SGU has people crunching numbers for them. Remember, at SkyWest Airlines, they will only roll out things that benefit the company. With tax reform, ďincorporating the bonuses into hourly ratesĒ actually probably helps the company save money on pilots in the long run while making it look nice on paper.

#VoteNO
That's EXACTLY what they're doing.

CBreezy
06-01-2018, 03:25 AM
Thatís great but unless Iím missing something thatís not leverage?

There is no table. Itís them saying what they will and wonít agree to.

They only have to pay to keep pace with the market. Nothing more and nothing less.

Time out. Of course the pilot group has leverage. The company wouldn't have come back to the table so soon if there wasn't something they needed. That's leverage. The company can't afford to fall behind their union competition. That's leverage. If they give an insulting offer that gets voted down and they unilaterally impose it anyway, there will be serious repercussions. They will more than likely come back to the table and raise the offer.

rickair7777
06-01-2018, 05:55 AM
It doesn't matter how people vote. SAPA and the company are the only ones with access to the 'results'. My prediction? It will 'pass' 65 to 35.

The company doesn't want that much of a margin, that means they gave away too much. 55% yes should do it, that leaves a buffer for any last-minute unexpected events which might cause an emotional reaction in some voters.

rickair7777
06-01-2018, 05:57 AM
Time out. Of course the pilot group has leverage. The company wouldn't have come back to the table so soon if there wasn't something they needed. That's leverage. The company can't afford to fall behind their union competition. That's leverage. If they give an insulting offer that gets voted down and they unilaterally impose it anyway, there will be serious repercussions. They will more than likely come back to the table and raise the offer.

Yes. Not having a union is worth something to them. That prevents the unilateral imposition of pay rates. Also the fact that they *could* be sued since they are a party to a contract which has a fixed duration, and they would be in violation if they gave raises to some people but not others (or bigger raises to some, but not others).

Excargodog
06-01-2018, 07:01 AM
Four thousand six hundred and twenty-one pilots. OK, I realize that Skywest pays their new hires bottom dollar during training and even puts them two to a room in the hotel, and that it has less in the way of signing bonuses than most of the other regionals. I get that. But it still costs SOMETHING together people those type - certificates and while it may be less than most other regionals it isn't nothing. Figure two grand for hotels, another $1500 for salaries, but then add in cost of recruiters, instructors, sims, ATP certain for many/most, and I woukd be greatly surprised if they can produce a type-rating for less than $25 grand. But OK, let's just make it $20 thousand so nobody will quibble. $20 thousand investment before you can earn them a dime. Do the math.

Even at that conservative number, that's north of $92 million.

Now Skywest just had an excellent first quarter, up considerably year over year. Their after tax earnings for the quarter were $54 million. Now that tells you something right there. Yes pilots come and go, but right now the accrued TYPE RATING training alone of the Pilot group represents damn near two quarters earnings - in a very good quarter.

All that really needs to happen is for enough people to start jumping ship, which has always sort of happened with those going off to the majors, but now - except for the senior lifers who aren't ever going to move and woukd turn down the call even if Delta or United made it - the option is increasingly there. If you are going to be a junior captain sitting reserve forever somewhere on the East Coast anyway, heck, might as well be getting the DEC bonuses the east coast regionals (some with flow to the biggies) are giving. Or the LCCs, heck,FOs with 0 TPIC are getting on those. Sure, it'll take you longer to make captain, but their year 2 FOs are making more than most junior Skywest captains.

And ultimately, that's what will happen. The market is - over the long haul - self correcting. There's a lag time, and the large number of Skywest lifers will drag out that time for awhile, but hey, if we aren't currently scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires - regional industry wide - we are at least SEEING the bottom of the barrel, as evidenced by the increasing rate of additional training/sim sessions and washout rates.

Don't bet for a minute you don't have leverage and failing that better options.

Turbosina
06-01-2018, 07:09 AM
Four thousand six hundred and twenty-one pilots. OK, I realize that Skywest pays their new hires bottom dollar during training and even puts them two to a room in the hotel, and that it has less in the way of signing bonuses than most of the other regionals. I get that. But it still costs SOMETHING together people those type - certificates and while it may be less than most other regionals it isn't nothing. Figure two grand for hotels, another $1500 for salaries, but then add in cost of recruiters, instructors, sims, ATP certain for many/most, and I woukd be greatly surprised if they can produce a type-rating for less than $25 grand. But OK, let's just make it $20 thousand so nobody will quibble. $20 thousand investment before you can earn them a dime. Do the math.

Even at that conservative number, that's north of $92 million.

Now Skywest just had an excellent first quarter, up considerably year over year. Their after tax earnings for the quarter were $54 million. Now that tells you something right there. Yes pilots come and go, but right now the accrued TYPE RATING training alone of the Pilot group represents damn near two quarters earnings - in a very good quarter.

All that really needs to happen is for enough people to start jumping ship, which has always sort of happened with those going off to the majors, but now - except for the senior lifers who aren't ever going to move and woukd turn down the call even if Delta or United made it - the option is increasingly there. If you are going to be a junior captain sitting reserve forever somewhere on the East Coast anyway, heck, might as well be getting the DEC bonuses the east coast regionals (some with flow to the biggies) are giving. Or the LCCs, heck,FOs with 0 TPIC are getting on those. Sure, it'll take you longer to make captain, but their year 2 FOs are making more than most junior Skywest captains.

And ultimately, that's what will happen. The market is - over the long haul - self correcting. There's a lag time, and the large number of Skywest lifers will drag out that time for awhile, but hey, if we aren't currently scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires - regional industry wide - we are at least SEEING the bottom of the barrel, as evidenced by the increasing rate of additional training/sim sessions and washout rates.

Don't bet for a minute you don't have leverage and failing that better options.
This guy gets it perfectly...

rickair7777
06-01-2018, 10:00 AM
Four thousand six hundred and twenty-one pilots. OK, I realize that Skywest pays their new hires bottom dollar during training and even puts them two to a room in the hotel, and that it has less in the way of signing bonuses than most of the other regionals. I get that. But it still costs SOMETHING together people those type - certificates and while it may be less than most other regionals it isn't nothing. Figure two grand for hotels, another $1500 for salaries, but then add in cost of recruiters, instructors, sims, ATP certain for many/most, and I woukd be greatly surprised if they can produce a type-rating for less than $25 grand. But OK, let's just make it $20 thousand so nobody will quibble. $20 thousand investment before you can earn them a dime. Do the math.

Even at that conservative number, that's north of $92 million.

Now Skywest just had an excellent first quarter, up considerably year over year. Their after tax earnings for the quarter were $54 million. Now that tells you something right there. Yes pilots come and go, but right now the accrued TYPE RATING training alone of the Pilot group represents damn near two quarters earnings - in a very good quarter.

All that really needs to happen is for enough people to start jumping ship, which has always sort of happened with those going off to the majors, but now - except for the senior lifers who aren't ever going to move and woukd turn down the call even if Delta or United made it - the option is increasingly there. If you are going to be a junior captain sitting reserve forever somewhere on the East Coast anyway, heck, might as well be getting the DEC bonuses the east coast regionals (some with flow to the biggies) are giving. Or the LCCs, heck,FOs with 0 TPIC are getting on those. Sure, it'll take you longer to make captain, but their year 2 FOs are making more than most junior Skywest captains.

And ultimately, that's what will happen. The market is - over the long haul - self correcting. There's a lag time, and the large number of Skywest lifers will drag out that time for awhile, but hey, if we aren't currently scraping the bottom of the barrel for new hires - regional industry wide - we are at least SEEING the bottom of the barrel, as evidenced by the increasing rate of additional training/sim sessions and washout rates.

Don't bet for a minute you don't have leverage and failing that better options.

You over-estimate the situation.

Most noobs are in it for fast career progression. Most of the current crop probably chose OO because:

1) They could spend most of their FO time in the west.
2) If they get stuck at OO, they can eventually come back west as a CA.

As a western type myself no, way would I ever have jumped ship to an eastern regional for a few more bucks, on the *assumption* that a major would call before I could go back west. No amount of regional money is worth the east (unless you're already there and like it in which case you should follow the money).

Regional FO money is chump change in the grand scheme and junior regional CA money is hardly any different. Unless you have debt or obligations which make every nickel vital, it's just not worth uprooting yourself to chase a little more beer money.

word302
06-01-2018, 11:03 AM
This guy gets it perfectly...

Don't feed the troll.

Excargodog
06-01-2018, 11:17 AM
Don't feed the troll.


Do you disagree with the comment?

Or merely dislike the commenter?

If the former, I would simply point out that you have done nothing to refute the comment, you have merely engaged in an ad hominem attack.

If the latter, feel free to neither read nor respond to any of my future postings. Making that decision for others does seem just a might cheeky though.

word302
06-01-2018, 11:23 AM
Do you disagree with the comment?

Or merely dislike the commenter?

If the former, I would simply point out that you have done nothing to refute the comment, you have merely engaged in an ad hominem attack.

If the latter, feel free to neither read nor respond to any of my future postings. Making that decision for others does seem just a might cheeky though.

Both. 10 characters.

Excargodog
06-01-2018, 01:15 PM
You over-estimate the situation.

Most noobs are in it for fast career progression. Most of the current crop probably chose OO because:

1) They could spend most of their FO time in the west.
2) If they get stuck at OO, they can eventually come back west as a CA.

As a western type myself no, way would I ever have jumped ship to an eastern regional for a few more bucks, on the *assumption* that a major would call before I could go back west. No amount of regional money is worth the east (unless you're already there and like it in which case you should follow the money).

Regional FO money is chump change in the grand scheme and junior regional CA money is hardly any different. Unless you have debt or obligations which make every nickel vital, it's just not worth uprooting yourself to chase a little more beer money.

I'd agree about the East Coast. Although from the Midwest initially my father was Navy and spent most of his time in PACFLEET. Between a short tour he had at Norfolk and my four years at University on the East Coast (more like three really, I spent much of my senior year taking electives at a west coast university), I had as much of the East Coast as I cared for. During my own military career I went to rather great lengths to avoid being based there. While obviously everyone doesn't feel that way, I agree with you. The disagreement comes from whether or not a newbie will get the option.

Historically, if you wanted the West your options were Skywest, Horizon, Compass, and Mesa. And I'll grant you the recent flying that Skywest got from AAG does open up some opportunities - even for newbies. But my concern were I considering Skywest is that a tremendous amount of the flying growth at Skywest is now in the east. And SOMEBODY is going to have to fly those lines. And a whole lot of senior people at Skywest feel just exactly the same way about the East Coast that you and I do. And unless they move on, they are going to keep the seniority pretty high at a bunch of those nicer western domiciles. In fact, the preference to stay off the East Coast is pretty general, unless you are already living there and perhaps simply don't know any better. There were guys at my university that thought Chicago was "out West".

Heck, Envoy is giving their guys commuting to LGA positive space and commuter hotels to go there. Maybe Skywest will wind up doing that too, but I sort of doubt it. Maybe Skywest will be successful competing for newbie pilots from the East coast against regionals from the East that have higher pay, better QOL, and a flow to a major to fill those Skywest East coast billets, but I can't imagine why that would be the case.

So the very fact that I agree with you - that I think the West is better - would tend to make me think in terms of a regional that simply DOESN'T have people on reserve in LGA.
Or, if it is unavoidable, that is if the only way you can get upgraded is to go to LGA anyway, why not go as a DEC, pick up the $40,000+ of bonus (that'll buy some SERIOUS volume of beer) and make the best of a bad situation until you have your 1000 TPIC?

I realize the vagaries of the economy and the effect on the regional system, but right now - today..., I think the troops have more leverage and options than they have had for the last couple decades.

Just my opinion though.

rickair7777
06-01-2018, 02:54 PM
I can definitely see CFI s picking eastern airlines, just don't see many folks walking away from much seniority to do a lateral.

MinFlyer
06-06-2018, 07:37 AM
So if the TA passes any guesses on how long until they implement the $30,000 hiring bonus?

bamike
06-06-2018, 07:51 AM
I'd agree about the East Coast. Although from the Midwest initially my father was Navy and spent most of his time in PACFLEET. Between a short tour he had at Norfolk and my four years at University on the East Coast (more like three really, I spent much of my senior year taking electives at a west coast university), I had as much of the East Coast as I cared for. During my own military career I went to rather great lengths to avoid being based there. While obviously everyone doesn't feel that way, I agree with you. The disagreement comes from whether or not a newbie will get the option.


Out of curiosity, can you explain to a guy who has never been out west why the west coast is so much better? Is it better for being an airline pilot or is it just a preference to live on the west coast?

zondaracer
06-06-2018, 08:04 AM
Out of curiosity, can you explain to a guy who has never been out west why the west coast is so much better? Is it better for being an airline pilot or is it just a preference to live on the west coast?

Mostly a preference to live on the west coast. Beautiful deserts, forests, mountains, and coastline.

As far as the flying, you get flow into SFO which sucks, but other than that the winters wreak less havoc on air traffic than east coast winters.

rickair7777
06-06-2018, 08:08 AM
Out of curiosity, can you explain to a guy who has never been out west why the west coast is so much better? Is it better for being an airline pilot or is it just a preference to live on the west coast?

Climate and mountains. You can run or bike in a tee shirt almost any day of the year (without getting heat stroke or hit by lightening in the summer). Few if any bugs. The rockies, sierras, etc are awesome playgrounds if you're into that. Also those who grew up in the surf don't want to leave.

Excluding a few tool sheds like hollywood and silicone valley, the people are nicer than in the NE.

If that's what you're used to it's hard to live elsewhere. Also, most regional flying is actually in the eastern US (population density) so there are plenty of jobs in the east for folks who were born, raised, and want to be there. Not as much out west. Many folks understandably just want to stay near their people.

I've lived all over, so I have some perspective. But if your choice of recreation tends to couch-potato, then the SE US is probably the best bang for the buck... square footage is cheap, and so is the air conditioning.

hawk21
06-06-2018, 08:20 AM
So if the TA passes any guesses on how long until they implement the $30,000 hiring bonus?

Theyíll start at 7500 for everyone Iím guessing. Then 12,500 when the inflow slows. Then 17,500. Then 22,500. Then 30,000. Itís not going to happen all at once.

WesternSkies
06-06-2018, 09:35 AM
GoJet is now offering a 3k captain retention for the next 6 months. Sure GoJet puts * all over the thing.
OO captains should get any new hire bonus in the form of a time released captain retention bonus.

rickair7777
06-06-2018, 09:55 AM
GoJet is now offering a 3k captain retention for the next 6 months.

What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all.

That's only going to retain those who were staying anyway, or don't have enough experience to get called by a major yet.

Excargodog
06-06-2018, 02:32 PM
What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all.

That's only going to retain those who were staying anyway, or don't have enough experience to get called by a major yet.


Or who have "problems" that - rightly or wrongly - make the HR departments of the majors and even the LCCs shy away from hiring them.

amcnd
06-06-2018, 11:12 PM
What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all.

That's only going to retain those who were staying anyway, or don't have enough experience to get called by a major yet.


Agreed. Waiting even 3-6 months for a 3k bonus will cost you in the long run... Could be the difference in a upgrade or transition to wide body FO. Well worth over 3k in the long run...

DirkDiggler
06-07-2018, 07:16 PM
What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all....

The same kind of moron who would apply to GoJet to begin with.

msprj2
06-07-2018, 08:00 PM
What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all.

That's only going to retain those who were staying anyway, or don't have enough experience to get called by a major yet.

What kind of moron would trade $3k for a tall glass of koolaid?

Strenyakov
06-07-2018, 08:57 PM
What kind of moron would give up six months at end of his major airline career for $3k??? $300K might do it, time-value of money and all.

That's only going to retain those who were staying anyway, or don't have enough experience to get called by a major yet.

Well, for a Skywest Captain making 80k, a 3000 addition would be a 3.75% raise. Skywest is offering a 4% raise so it is pretty comparable. With the new TA, aren't you guys guys locking in 0% raise in 2019, and 1.5% in 2020 and 2021?

rickair7777
06-07-2018, 09:23 PM
Well, for a Skywest Captain making 80k, a 3000 addition would be a 3.75% raise. Skywest is offering a 4% raise so it is pretty comparable. With the new TA, aren't you guys guys locking in 0% raise in 2019, and 1.5% in 2020 and 2021?

We were talking about a retention bonus. If you were staying anyway, yes it's a raise but only for as long as they need to incentivize new-hires. If I were in that situation I'd prefer a bump to hourly rates.

rickair7777
06-07-2018, 09:24 PM
What kind of moron would trade $3k for a tall glass of koolaid?

Well, not me.

calmwinds
06-08-2018, 03:07 AM
Well, not me.

I would think a $3,000 retention bonus would cause more senior pilots to look. It is nearly an insult.

Excargodog
06-08-2018, 06:58 AM
I would think a $3,000 retention bonus would cause more senior pilots to look. It is nearly an insult.

Depends I guess. A sufficiently senior pilot who was in his/her early 60s and enjoying the sort of schedules that being at the top of the seniority list brings might not want to spend three or four months of their remaining flying years getting a new type-rating so they could then go to a major as the junior FO, giving up salary the first year but even after that commuting and/or being on reserve for their last few years while never again sitting in the left seat. Even if you were making more salary after the first year and the 401K was being fed substantially better.

And the closer you were to 65, the less economically advantageous it would generally be.

In this market, most of the very senior regional guys who don't have issues in their background who really WANT to step up to the majors probably already have that opportunity. Some will choose not to for personal reasons whatever their age, some because they are too old for there to be much economic or personal payoff in making the jump.

Jefferson
06-08-2018, 12:57 PM
When does the vote open and close?

zondaracer
06-08-2018, 01:16 PM
When does the vote open and close?

Opened yesterday. Two week voting period.

WesternSkies
06-08-2018, 02:19 PM
Opened yesterday. Two week voting period.

-ish.
It is really unethical that they donít have a close date and time.
I think one communication said ďaround the 21stĒ

tomgoodman
06-08-2018, 02:27 PM
-ish.
It is really unethical that they donít have a close date and time.
I think one communication said ďaround the 21stĒ

I think thatís how the Chicago Machine did it.....gotta wait Ďtil the downstate returns are all in, so weíll know how many votes our guy is gonna need. :D

TransWorld
06-08-2018, 06:16 PM
Reminds me of the Cook County (Chicago) motto. Vote early, vote often. And just because you have been dead for a decade is no reason to not continue to have a perfect voting record.

GreatStory
06-09-2018, 10:44 AM
This TA is an epic betrayal by SAPA.

amcnd
06-09-2018, 11:20 AM
So is this going to be like last TA? By the look at it on social media it would have been 90% no. Yet it still passed... whats going to happen this go around?...

SirLurksalot
06-09-2018, 11:41 AM
So is this going to be like last TA? By the look at it on social media it would have been 90% no. Yet it still passed... whats going to happen this go around?...

This time around, kind of like the other times around, it will be implemented if your company wants it to be implemented

word302
06-09-2018, 11:53 AM
This time around, kind of like the other times around, it will be implemented if your company wants it to be implemented

You are clueless.

WesternSkies
06-09-2018, 12:03 PM
So is this going to be like last TA? By the look at it on social media it would have been 90% no. Yet it still passed... whats going to happen this go around?...

Since the TA 3 TAs ago failed Iím confident this one has the ability to fail. IMO

Flogger
06-09-2018, 12:24 PM
This TA is an epic betrayal by SAPA.

A fake union paid for by the company can't BETRAY you. They are simply doing their job.

You people really do crack me up. Makes the troll sooooooo worth the time!!!

trip
06-09-2018, 04:24 PM
You are clueless.


He's right. Company is paying for the vote, not the pilots, you will get what you pay for.
I remember a pay vote several years ago that was closed early and deemed passed because it was *gasp* being live monitored and they had the percentage needed to pass.
The new pay rate was already in the next days pay check that would have needed to have been processed days earlier!

XWinds
06-11-2018, 09:08 AM
If this TA passes, which regional would the contract be comparable too? I'm trying to decide on whether Skywest is where I want to go and obviously the contract is a big part of that. The company/recruiter wants a decision ASAP, but I want to know how the contract will pan out before committing to anything since, at the moment, Skywest is at the bottom of the heap.

rickair7777
06-11-2018, 09:30 AM
If this TA passes, which regional would the contract be comparable too? I'm trying to decide on whether Skywest is where I want to go and obviously the contract is a big part of that. The company/recruiter wants a decision ASAP, but I want to know how the contract will pan out before committing to anything since, at the moment, Skywest is at the bottom of the heap.

The recruiters can wait, they can't afford to that picky. If it matters to you about the TA then just wait and see what happens.

Check Complete
06-11-2018, 09:31 AM
If this TA passes, which regional would the contract be comparable too? I'm trying to decide on whether Skywest is where I want to go and obviously the contract is a big part of that. The company/recruiter wants a decision ASAP, but I want to know how the contract will pan out before committing to anything since, at the moment, Skywest is at the bottom of the heap.

Your assessment is correct, very unlikely that it will improve.

You've answered your own question!

trip
06-11-2018, 10:55 AM
If this TA passes, which regional would the contract be comparable too? I'm trying to decide on whether Skywest is where I want to go and obviously the contract is a big part of that. The company/recruiter wants a decision ASAP, but I want to know how the contract will pan out before committing to anything since, at the moment, Skywest is at the bottom of the heap.

Patience grasshopper.

savedbythevnav
06-11-2018, 12:34 PM
-ish.
It is really unethical that they donít have a close date and time.
I think one communication said ďaround the 21stĒ

Our lord and savior RJ has allowed the vote to end at a particular time on the 21st now. 2000 MDT.

Check Complete
06-11-2018, 01:23 PM
Our lord and savior RJ has allowed the vote to end at a particular time on the 21st now. 2000 MDT.

I know your joking, but that guy needs to get voted out!

IMO

Check Complete
06-11-2018, 01:26 PM
Patience grasshopper.

Care to elaborate, I'm not quite understanding what you're getting at?

savedbythevnav
06-11-2018, 02:50 PM
I know your joking, but that guy needs to get voted out!

IMO

Undoubtedly. He's a company man. While it's not bad to be pro-SkyWest, you also need to be pro-pilot. He doesn't represent pilots at all. It's bad, even by SAPA standards of "representation"


ALPA pls

Gone Flying
06-11-2018, 04:08 PM
If this TA passes, which regional would the contract be comparable too? I'm trying to decide on whether Skywest is where I want to go and obviously the contract is a big part of that. The company/recruiter wants a decision ASAP, but I want to know how the contract will pan out before committing to anything since, at the moment, Skywest is at the bottom of the heap.

FO pay will be similar to YX for first 2 years, then higher starting year 3, all FO's will pay the same scale

Ca pay this year will be similar with YX but no raise in 2019 and only 2% in 2020. ( 6% per year for CA'S at YX)

only major work rule change in 2:1 duty rig is scheduled or Actual (currently only scheduled duty time)

FO's lose all bonuses, CA's lose everything but profit sharing

FWIW I have seen very negative reactions to this by pilots due to loss of bonuses to get these rates that are 3rd in industry and no measurable QOL improvements

hope this helps

rickair7777
06-12-2018, 06:22 AM
FWIW I have seen very negative reactions to this by pilots due to loss of bonuses to get these rates that are 3rd in industry and no measurable QOL improvements


Converting bonuses to hourly rates is good for those who will stick around... bonus criteria will not always be met, and can fluctuate. Even if it's not a dollar for dollar trade.

Westernflight
06-12-2018, 09:20 AM
Converting bonuses to hourly rates is good for those who will stick around... bonus criteria will not always be met, and can fluctuate. Even if it's not a dollar for dollar trade.

Iíll agree, but using our bonuses to pay for our ďraiseĒ isnít.

word302
06-12-2018, 09:34 AM
Iíll agree, but using our bonuses to pay for our ďraiseĒ isnít.

And using our bonuses at last year's rates for their calculations is robbery.

WesternSkies
06-12-2018, 09:47 AM
And using our bonuses at last year's rates for their calculations is robbery.

Exactly. Any year would have been great to wrap bonuses into hourly...just not this year. Next year would be great after we get a new baseline with the new tax law.

Bravix
06-12-2018, 04:00 PM
Exactly. Any year would have been great to wrap bonuses into hourly...just not this year. Next year would be great after we get a new baseline with the new tax law.

Seconded. They're trying to pull a fast one.

Excargodog
06-12-2018, 08:10 PM
U.S. Inflation Accelerates to Six-Year High, Eroding Wages
By Katia Dmitrieva
June 12, 2018 at 5:30:01 AM PDT Updated on June 12, 2018 at 6:06:52 AM PDT
Consumer price index rose 2.8% in May from a year earlier
Inflation-adjusted pay unchanged over 12-month period


U.S. Inflation Reaches Six-Year High at 2.8%
Sarah House, senior economist at Wells Fargo Securities, says cyclical pressures on inflation are emerging.
U.S. inflation accelerated in May to the fastest pace in more than six years, reinforcing the Federal Reserveís outlook for gradual interest-rate hikes while eroding wage gains that remain relatively tepid despite an 18-year low in unemployment.

blindfayth
06-13-2018, 04:44 AM
As someone who was trying decide where to go as I approach my RATP mins (50 hours away at this point), I decided to go with YX once I saw this TA come out. Class date will be in August.

I can't believe SkyWest is trying to pull this. By the time I'm eligible for 2020 captain pay @ YX, it will have matched EDV's pay, and I'll get to be based in a cheap cost of living base to save $ (such as CMH). No airport ready reserve, no junior manning.

You guys really deserve better. I was holding out to see what was going to happen, but this is just disappointment.

SirLurksalot
06-13-2018, 06:54 AM
As someone who was trying decide where to go as I approach my RATP mins (50 hours away at this point), I decided to go with YX once I saw this TA come out. Class date will be in August.

I can't believe SkyWest is trying to pull this. By the time I'm eligible for 2020 captain pay @ YX, it will have matched EDV's pay, and I'll get to be based in a cheap cost of living base to save $ (such as CMH). No airport ready reserve, no junior manning.

You guys really deserve better. I was holding out to see what was going to happen, but this is just disappointment.

Your username suggests youd go to skywest, but good on you for making a
conscious decision

Fr8Thrust
06-13-2018, 09:08 PM
I was holding out to see what was going to happen, but this is just disappointment.

Given the last TA passed (1% raise, w/o a commuter clause, hotels, or out-of-base parking, all for the carrot to fly 175s that weíre coming regardless), Iím not holding my breath for this one.

Even being OAL, Iím hoping the pilot group can finally overcome the Koolaid, Lifers, and SAPA this time around.

rickair7777
06-14-2018, 06:54 AM
Given the last TA passed (1% raise, w/o a commuter clause, hotels, or out-of-base parking, all for the carrot to fly 175s that weíre coming regardless), Iím not holding my breath for this one.

Even being OAL, Iím hoping the pilot group can finally overcome the Koolaid, Lifers, and SAPA this time around.

Hotels? You mean double-occupancy for noobs?

That's a recruiting item... the pilot group should hold that hostage, not fight to give the company tools to help recruiting :confused:

Excargodog
06-14-2018, 07:44 AM
Hotels? You mean double-occupancy for noobs?

That's a recruiting item... the pilot group should hold that hostage, not fight to give the company tools to help recruiting :confused:


Naaw. They'd just do double occupancy with mixed FA and FO training classes. That actually might HELP recruiting - at least on the Pilot side.

:p

Fr8Thrust
06-14-2018, 11:13 AM
Hotels? You mean double-occupancy for noobs?

Commuter hotels.

rickair7777
06-14-2018, 11:15 AM
Commuter hotels.

Oh, yeah that would be nice.

CodyPilot
06-14-2018, 09:37 PM
So they are doing away with any type of bonus whatsover?



FO pay will be similar to YX for first 2 years, then higher starting year 3, all FO's will pay the same scale

Ca pay this year will be similar with YX but no raise in 2019 and only 2% in 2020. ( 6% per year for CA'S at YX)

only major work rule change in 2:1 duty rig is scheduled or Actual (currently only scheduled duty time)

FO's lose all bonuses, CA's lose everything but profit sharing

FWIW I have seen very negative reactions to this by pilots due to loss of bonuses to get these rates that are 3rd in industry and no measurable QOL improvements

hope this helps

amcnd
06-15-2018, 12:14 AM
So they are doing away with any type of bonus whatsover?

There will still be New hire bonus (up to 30k) and Captains will get pilot profit sharing twice a year...

rickair7777
06-15-2018, 05:57 AM
There will still be New hire bonus (up to 30k) and Captains will get pilot profit sharing twice a year...

You have to admit that CA PPS is the largest of the bonuses by far. The performance rewards had dwindled to little more than beer money over the years.

Is offline
06-15-2018, 06:18 AM
You have to admit that CA PPS is the largest of the bonuses by far. The performance rewards had dwindled to little more than beer money over the years.

The financial rewards are worth a lot more than beer money and they are leaving too. That alone is a $5000-10000 loss for all captains.

rickair7777
06-15-2018, 07:50 AM
The financial rewards are worth a lot more than beer money and they are leaving too. That alone is a $5000-10000 loss for all captains.

I don't remember it being anywhere near that :confused:

amcnd
06-15-2018, 07:55 AM
The financial rewards are worth a lot more than beer money and they are leaving too. That alone is a $5000-10000 loss for all captains.

Yes they are. But that amount is going into your ďscaleĒ. So they say..

rickair7777
06-15-2018, 09:42 AM
Yes they are. But that amount is going into your ďscaleĒ. So they say..

I'd rather have it in the scale than a bonus linked to things beyond my control. I'd even take about 80 cents on the dollar just for the stability (general principle, not necessarily advocating that in this particular case).

word302
06-15-2018, 10:57 AM
I'd rather have it in the scale than a bonus linked to things beyond my control. I'd even take about 80 cents on the dollar just for the stability (general principle, not necessarily advocating that in this particular case).

Thatís all fine and good, just donít do that and try to convince me itís a raise.

gojo
06-15-2018, 11:12 AM
Thatís all fine and good, just donít do that and try to convince me itís a raise.

Ya, it should be at least 1% over to look better

amcnd
06-15-2018, 11:35 AM
I'd rather have it in the scale than a bonus linked to things beyond my control. I'd even take about 80 cents on the dollar just for the stability (general principle, not necessarily advocating that in this particular case).

You say that now. But what if proft margins go to 8,9,15%?? Then you and every other pilot will want Profit sharing back... this TA is a double edge sword...

GearUpHeadDown
06-15-2018, 12:42 PM
You say that now. But what if proft margins go to 8,9,15%?? Then you and every other pilot will want Profit sharing back... this TA is a double edge sword...

When the company wants to get rid of something, itís to their benefit long-term as they see something we canít.

Utah
06-15-2018, 01:06 PM
Upper management has said several times this year that bonuses were going up. My quarterly bonuses were worth about $7 an hour. If they go up 10-12% this year combined along with my Jan 1, 2019 increase my raise under the new package is worth about 30 cents.

30 pennies an hour.

word302
06-15-2018, 03:14 PM
Ya, it should be at least 1% over to look better

Your skills are weak.

peepz
06-15-2018, 03:56 PM
Ya, it should be at least 1% over to look better

The one percent thing is gettin played out. 48 percent of us voted no...



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