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Rawhide16
05-24-2018, 12:19 PM
I created this thread for jcountry and everyone else that continually derail legitimate threads with their incessant complaining about the JCBA, APA, management, AA QOL, etc, so that the other threads remain useful and people don't have to sort through dozens of pages of verbal diarreah to find pertinent info.

My recommendation would be to keep it constructive and provide some realistic solutions to your perceived problems.


Hetman
05-24-2018, 12:54 PM
..............

jcountry
05-24-2018, 03:18 PM
I think *****ing/griping threads are a great first step!

Come on in, the waterís fine!

(Hey look! Thereís a Baby Ruth floating in the pool.... Dibs for the thread starter!)


Air Stang 7
05-24-2018, 03:37 PM
The grocery was out of Jarlsberg cheese today. I’m pretty upset about it.

Rawhide16
05-24-2018, 03:38 PM
I think *****ing/griping threads are a great first step!

Come on in, the waterís fine!

(Hey look! Thereís a Baby Ruth floating in the pool.... Dibs for the thread starter!)

I agree with you to a point. However, itís the same Ďole story with nearly every thread on here. Someone asks a legitimate question and it quickly devolves to a *****fest.

Iím all for constructive *****ing but yours nearly always borders on irrational.

Rawhide16
05-24-2018, 03:39 PM
The grocery was out of Jarlsberg cheese today. Iím pretty upset about it.

And what is your proposed solution to said problem?

jcountry
05-24-2018, 03:46 PM
I agree with you to a point. However, itís the same Ďole story with nearly every thread on here. Someone asks a legitimate question and it quickly devolves to a *****fest.

Iím all for constructive *****ing but yours nearly always borders on irrational.

Do you know how to fix APA?

I'd love to hear it.

I think ALPA would just be run by the same asshats-for twice the dues....

Look around the industry. Look at our JCBA. We have some very serious issues. I get a little upset when people try and defend the asshats who told everyone that our contract is awesome and we should pass it.

Rawhide16
05-24-2018, 04:14 PM
Do you know how to fix APA?

I'd love to hear it.

I think ALPA would just be run by the same asshats-for twice the dues....

Look around the industry. Look at our JCBA. We have some very serious issues. I get a little upset when people try and defend the asshats who told everyone that our contract is awesome and we should pass it.

I don't disagree with you. However, there's a time and a place for everything. The whole point of this thread is to give you a "safe space" to air your grievances without derailing every other thread. The thread was not meant just to call you out but to actually offer a place for constructive *****ing instead of ruining otherwise good threads.

With regard to APA vs ALPA, I'll defer to those smarter than me as I'm new to the 121 world and don't know yet the inner workings of contract negotiations. From what I've gathered from your many rants is that you hate APA and you hate ALPA more. Are you suggesting that we operate without a union? If not, which union pleases you? From my limited time in the 121 world I've noticed that ALPA has been at the negotiating table for most, if not all, of the current industry leading contracts (DAL, FedEx, UAL). If nothing else, they may give a little more bite and additional resources for our negotiations instead of letting APA run the show.

BOGSAT
05-24-2018, 04:41 PM
Do you know how to fix APA?

I'd love to hear it.

I think ALPA would just be run by the same asshats-for twice the dues....

Look around the industry. Look at our JCBA. We have some very serious issues. I get a little upset when people try and defend the asshats who told everyone that our contract is awesome and we should pass it.

A wise LAA pilot told me: ďAPA has never had an industry leading contract. Never!Ē

I think our senior pilot group suffers from Stockholm Syndrome?

Air Stang 7
05-24-2018, 04:44 PM
And what is your proposed solution to said problem?
Either go to another store or wait for the next delivery on Monday. Itís still annoying having to deal with it.

EMBFlyer
05-24-2018, 04:47 PM
Do you know how to fix APA?

I'd love to hear it.

I think ALPA would just be run by the same asshats-for twice the dues....

Look around the industry. Look at our JCBA. We have some very serious issues. I get a little upset when people try and defend the asshats who told everyone that our contract is awesome and we should pass it.

We're getting there. The tide is turning. One of the biggest obstacles to ANYTHING was voted out of a major base.

ORD is the next base that needs reform.

jcountry
05-24-2018, 05:23 PM
We're getting there. The tide is turning. One of the biggest obstacles to ANYTHING was voted out of a major base.

ORD is the next base that needs reform.



I know who you are talking about.

That guy was horrible! I pity whomever married that dildo.

Iím hoping we can fix APA internally. It is encouraging to see that level of ****head voted out. Maybe some of the other real awful ones will see the same foot in their asses.

Iím no fan of ALPA. They are 100% as corrupt as the very worst organizations Iíve ever heard of. They arenít the solution to anything. Especially with the likes of the guy who just negotiated those concessions at the helm.

123494
05-24-2018, 08:26 PM
I went to the hospital today to visit a family member. As I get to the elevator, an elderly gentlemen kept pressing the button, at least 5 times. He was flustered and clearly irritated. The door opened and out comes a couple of employees with a lady in a wheelchair. The guy nearly knocks them over as he rushes inside while they try to squeeze out of the elevator. He became angrier as we had to stop on the floor before his so I could get out, and says ďI am having the worst luck in the world with this elevator, got to be the unluckiest guy around.Ē All I said was ďhey, it could be worse. You could be stuck in this hospital with cancer, instead of worrying about an elevator.Ē Moral of the story...quit complaining!

Groundpointfife
05-24-2018, 08:34 PM
Did someone say B1tches, where they at?

FlyyGuyy
05-24-2018, 08:54 PM
Apa hires Alpa to do a lot for them already...

SactisbonesBJ
05-24-2018, 10:47 PM
The grocery was out of Jarlsberg cheese today. Iím pretty upset about it.

Try Boursin cheese with a nice cracker, you'll thank me later

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61PACsTILbL._SY355_.jpg

PRS Guitars
05-25-2018, 05:05 AM
What is the point of these observation flights for new hires? Completely unnecessary, and a waist of a Jumpseat. If we are going to have these, at least give the observer an A1 seat in the back to trade with the any Jumpseaters.

Rawhide16
05-25-2018, 05:17 AM
What is the point of these observation flights for new hires? Completely unnecessary, and a waist of a Jumpseat. If we are going to have these, at least give the observer an A1 seat in the back to trade with the any Jumpseaters.

I don't know. I wouldn't say it was a total waste. Requiring 4 is a bit much though. For a mil fighter guy like me with no prior 121 experience it was nice to see the academics and procedures in action and how things actually run on the line before being in the OE hot seat. I can see it being much more of a waste of time for anyone with prior 121 experience.

Sliceback
05-25-2018, 07:33 AM
A wise LAA pilot told me: ďAPA has never had an industry leading contract. Never!Ē

I think our senior pilot group suffers from Stockholm Syndrome?

A wiser LAA pilot would say ďIíd check with a negotiator who actually researches data before making statements comparing contracts.Ē

Mid 1990ís and perhaps late 200xís vs other legacy carriers would be worth comparing.

jcountry
05-25-2018, 08:18 AM
A wiser LAA pilot would say “I’d check with a negotiator who actually researches data before making statements comparing contracts.”

Mid 1990’s and perhaps late 200x’s vs other legacy carriers would be worth comparing.

Have they ever had anywhere close to industry leading contracts?

(Pay rates are only a small part of the whole picture.)

I’ve heard that work rules have always been bad. Is that untrue?

Hint: Even regional average work rules would be a 20% raise.

Al Czervik
05-25-2018, 10:34 AM
We're getting there. The tide is turning. One of the biggest obstacles to ANYTHING was voted out of a major base.

ORD is the next base that needs reform.

Whatís the issue with ORD? Feel free to PM.

mainlineAF
05-25-2018, 11:12 AM
Have they ever had anywhere close to industry leading contracts?

(Pay rates are only a small part of the whole picture.)

Iíve heard that work rules have always been bad. Is that untrue?

Hint: Even regional average work rules would be a 20% raise.



See you lose credibility when you say stuff like regional work rules would be a 20% raise. Thatís just ridiculous.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 11:18 AM
Iím no fan of ALPA. They are 100% as corrupt as the very worst organizations Iíve ever heard of. They arenít the solution to anything. Especially with the likes of the guy who just negotiated those concessions at the helm.

I feel bad for those poor Delta FOs making $50k+/month before 401k contributions. Not to mention the superior PS, LTD, STD and 270 hours of sick time per year. It must be horrible for them to be represented by ALPA. Iím sure they wished they were represented by good olí APA where you can fly 21 days for 77 hours of credit. But at least our hourly rate is a few cents higher. Just donít pay attention to the time off or W2s.

Sliceback
05-25-2018, 11:29 AM
DL FOís get 270 hrs of sick time per year? I didnít know that and I doubt they know that.

Sliceback
05-25-2018, 11:34 AM
See you lose credibility when you say stuff like regional work rules would be a 20% raise. Thatís just ridiculous.

Itís like the guy saying ďeven at my regional we got ACD!Ē
Heíd never mention how much it was. The ACD regional value I found was 2 hrs.

Like I said, a smarter LAA guy would ask a negotiator for facts before believing someone on the Internet.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 11:38 AM
DL FOís get 270 hrs of sick time per year? I didnít know that and I doubt they know that.

All Delta pilots get 270 hours of sick time deposited in their sick bank each year. Makes your 60 hours of sick seem pretty pathetic. Read the contract comparison on alliedpilots.org. Talk to a delt pilot. The problem is most AA pilots have no idea how sh&tty our contract is in comparison to DAL, UAL, SWA, etc.

Rawhide16
05-25-2018, 12:19 PM
All Delta pilots get 270 hours of sick time deposited in their sick bank each year. Makes your 60 hours of sick seem pretty pathetic. Read the contract comparison on alliedpilots.org. Talk to a delt pilot. The problem is most AA pilots have no idea how sh&tty our contract is in comparison to DAL, UAL, SWA, etc.

Not entirely true. DAL pilots don't get 270/year until the 20 YOS point. New hires start with 50 and it increases each year until 8 YOS (50, 75, 100, 125, 145, 170, 195, 220) then 9-19 YOS it increases to 240 then at 20 YOS and beyond it's 270. Still better than what we get though.

One point in our favor, depending on how you look at it, is that ours is banked if not used. DAL's is use or lose.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 12:51 PM
Not entirely true. DAL pilots don't get 270/year until the 20 YOS point. New hires start with 50 and it increases each year until 8 YOS (50, 75, 100, 125, 145, 170, 195, 220) then 9-19 YOS it increases to 240 then at 20 YOS and beyond it's 270. Still better than what we get though.

One point in our favor, depending on how you look at it, is that ours is banked if not used. DAL's is use or lose.

Wouldnít you find that to be superior to AAís system? Given the quality of our pairings, the red/redder/reddest BS, and age of our pilot group are there AA pilots actually banking 60 hours per year?

The vast majority of AA pilots have 20 years of service but call it an average of 240 hours per year to be conservative. Thatís 3 months of paid time off. Huge safety net in the event of illnsss or short term disability.

jcountry
05-25-2018, 01:59 PM
I feel bad for those poor Delta FOs making $50k+/month before 401k contributions. Not to mention the superior PS, LTD, STD and 270 hours of sick time per year. It must be horrible for them to be represented by ALPA. Iím sure they wished they were represented by good olí APA where you can fly 21 days for 77 hours of credit. But at least our hourly rate is a few cents higher. Just donít pay attention to the time off or W2s.

50k per month?

Are you smoking crack rock? And funneling bleach?

badflaps
05-25-2018, 02:08 PM
50k per month?

Are you smoking crack rock? And funneling bleach?

Tide pods......

Rawhide16
05-25-2018, 02:47 PM
Wouldn’t you find that to be superior to AA’s system? Given the quality of our pairings, the red/redder/reddest BS, and age of our pilot group are there AA pilots actually banking 60 hours per year?

The vast majority of AA pilots have 20 years of service but call it an average of 240 hours per year to be conservative. That’s 3 months of paid time off. Huge safety net in the event of illnsss or short term disability.

Yes, as I said in my previous post, it's better than what we have. Especially given our subpar disability program. If our disability was on par with DAL people wouldn't have to fly when they're sick so that they can bank their sick time to use as an insurance policy when a disability issue arises.

I do like the bank option but I think the annual allotment needs to come up along with our disability. I'd be happy with a number less than DAL's 270 (not significantly lower though) if we can keep our bank option. If the company wants to ditch the bank option then we should be in the same ballpark as DAL.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 02:58 PM
50k per month?

Are you smoking crack rock? And funneling bleach?

Neither. You guys need to pull your head out of your proverbial a$s prior to section 6. Go ask a Delta A350 pilot. They have FOs crediting over 260 hours of pay credit for the month. Green slip. Green slip with conflict. Do the math. Apparently they have some captains that broke 100k in a month.

PRS Guitars
05-25-2018, 03:01 PM
I don't know. I wouldn't say it was a total waste. Requiring 4 is a bit much though. For a mil fighter guy like me with no prior 121 experience it was nice to see the academics and procedures in action and how things actually run on the line before being in the OE hot seat. I can see it being much more of a waste of time for anyone with prior 121 experience.

I too was pointy nose Air Force, hired under LUS, never had any observer rides and had no problems. So I stand by my gripe:cool:

Laker24
05-25-2018, 03:04 PM
Yes, as I said in my previous post, it's better than what we have. Especially given our subpar disability program. If our disability was on par with DAL people wouldn't have to fly when they're sick so that they can bank their sick time to use as an insurance policy when a disability issue arises.

I do like the bank option but I think the annual allotment needs to come up along with our disability. I'd be happy with a number less than DAL's 270 (not significantly lower though) if we can keep our bank option. If the company wants to ditch the bank option then we should be in the same ballpark as DAL.

I agree with you. The problem is we have too many pilots like Jcountry and Badflaps who have no clue how substandard our current contract is. They compare pay rates and think all is good. The problem is $180 per hour at AA means 180k whereas $180 per hour at Delta can yield $300,000. Not to mention the long list of quality of life shortcomings

Cheddar
05-25-2018, 03:18 PM
People are frustrated. Iím frustrated, and I remember the day John Hale called and told me I was hired - it was one of the happiest days of my professional life.

But things here arenít good. They arenít horrible (Iíve dug ditches and worked in the oil field, and whatís worse is working for contract companies that would rather see the jet on fire and collect the insurance check than properly maintain it) - but they arenít what they could be.

What we do have now, is a lot of people from various backgrounds all coming together at contract time. But we have to work together. Yes, I have VERY GOOD FRIENDS that canít understand that our work rules are wAAy in the toilet. Ok - donít get mad at them, educate them. Nicely. Theyíve been through a lot with the toxic AMR culture, and frankly they just want to get paid and go home and try to make up what they lost. We have a lot of folks that are new - and we know itís better out there. So letís get to work. Send sound offs, send emails to the negotiating committee. Get involved however you can and at least VOTE when you get the chance.

Over the past two months several of my friends and I have sat down and gone through the contract and tried to make a coherent Ďwish listí with stuff that is either industry standard, or Ďjust above industry standard.í Itís mind numbing how bad and confusing our contract is.

My suggestion is STEP ONE: A complete and total re-write of sections 1 and 15. Until then, know your contact to the best of your ability. APA just released an email about potential traps in section 15. Flag it, print it, copy it. THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE WORKING THEIR ARSES OFF AT APA. The organizational side is horrible, but we have talent. The NC is the best it may have ever been. There is hope, but you have to get involved with AT LEAST your voice. Send sound offs!!!

jcountry has a lot to say in his angst, but so does sliceback, aa73 and many of the LAA guys. Time to get to work ladies and gents. As a wise LAW Capt just told my buddy ďitís your $10MM dollar business, so you better take care of it.Ē

Have you sat down and done the math on this? I have the ability in the 25 years Iíll hopefully be here to make upwards of $7-12MM (everything included and depending on how well I can invest). Letís take care of our investment.

You all rock!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Rawhide16
05-25-2018, 03:40 PM
I too was pointy nose Air Force, hired under LUS, never had any observer rides and had no problems. So I stand by my gripe:cool:

Fair enough. To each his own. Iím a visual learner and like to see something done before Iím in the hot seat. Therefore, I stand by comment.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 04:01 PM
50k per month?

Are you smoking crack rock? And funneling bleach?

https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/113811-900k-350-captains.html

jcountry
05-25-2018, 04:10 PM
People are frustrated. I’m frustrated, and I remember the day John Hale called and told me I was hired - it was one of the happiest days of my professional life.

But things here aren’t good. They aren’t horrible (I’ve dug ditches and worked in the oil field, and what’s worse is working for contract companies that would rather see the jet on fire and collect the insurance check than properly maintain it) - but they aren’t what they could be.

What we do have now, is a lot of people from various backgrounds all coming together at contract time. But we have to work together. Yes, I have VERY GOOD FRIENDS that can’t understand that our work rules are wAAy in the toilet. Ok - don’t get mad at them, educate them. Nicely. They’ve been through a lot with the toxic AMR culture, and frankly they just want to get paid and go home and try to make up what they lost. We have a lot of folks that are new - and we know it’s better out there. So let’s get to work. Send sound offs, send emails to the negotiating committee. Get involved however you can and at least VOTE when you get the chance.

Over the past two months several of my friends and I have sat down and gone through the contract and tried to make a coherent ‘wish list’ with stuff that is either industry standard, or ‘just above industry standard.’ It’s mind numbing how bad and confusing our contract is.

My suggestion is STEP ONE: A complete and total re-write of sections 1 and 15. Until then, know your contact to the best of your ability. APA just released an email about potential traps in section 15. Flag it, print it, copy it. THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE WORKING THEIR ARSES OFF AT APA. The organizational side is horrible, but we have talent. The NC is the best it may have ever been. There is hope, but you have to get involved with AT LEAST your voice. Send sound offs!!!

jcountry has a lot to say in his angst, but so does sliceback, aa73 and many of the LAA guys. Time to get to work ladies and gents. As a wise LAW Capt just told my buddy “it’s your $10MM dollar business, so you better take care of it.”

Have you sat down and done the math on this? I have the ability in the 25 years I’ll hopefully be here to make upwards of $7-12MM (everything included and depending on how well I can invest). Let’s take care of our investment.

You all rock!!!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for the perspective.

We really do have some awesome people in the wings! Things will improve! (Hopefully soon)

It’s a chicken &a egg thing: Hard to have a good union without good people running it-and hard to attract good people to try and fix a crappy union.

Hopefully, that problem will solve itself. Soon.

mainlineAF
05-25-2018, 05:22 PM
Neither. You guys need to pull your head out of your proverbial a$s prior to section 6. Go ask a Delta A350 pilot. They have FOs crediting over 260 hours of pay credit for the month. Green slip. Green slip with conflict. Do the math. Apparently they have some captains that broke 100k in a month.



Thatís a one off thing as theyíre bringing a new plane online. It only has one base with no domestic flights and only 4 man trips. Apparently theyíre way understaffed as they spool up but they will fix that shortly. So making a blanket statement that implies all delta FOs regularly make 50k a month is ludicrous.

They also just offered 500 or so voluntary months off in other categories. So you can bet theyíre way over-manned in those fleets and thereís no premium flowing there.

The contract at AA is weak. No denying that. But these sorts of ridiculous claims just make people not pay attention.

Laker24
05-25-2018, 06:38 PM
I never said all Delta FOs make 50k per month. I have no idea where you got that impression. But some Delta FOs are making 50k. Some are making 60k/month and some CAs are +-100k. Itís not a ridiculous claim. Itís reality.

My point is...has that EVER happened at AA? Have we ever had one offs like that? Nope. We have a vastly inferior contract. Did we have 787 FOs making 50k/month when they brought it online? If training buys your trip for IOE can you pick up a 200% premium trip on top of that? Do we have the ability to pick up premium with conflict thus droppings the next scheduled trip with pay protection? Heck no.

I do know that Delta 767 FOs routinely make 250-320k. I donít know many AAL 767 FOs making 250-300k. Our pay rates are similar. Our W2s, average days off, sick accrual, LTD, etc are not. The point is that we have a steep hill to climb to get up to industry average. I think we can do it but we need to educate the group on where our contract comes up short. Too many of us have no idea how far behind we are.

Flytolive
05-25-2018, 07:09 PM
I’m no fan of ALPA. They are 100% as corrupt as the very worst organizations I’ve ever heard of. They aren’t the solution to anything. Especially with the likes of the guy who just negotiated those concessions at the helm.It is so funny to see how detached from reality some pilots are. ALPA is one of the least corrupt organizations imaginable. ALPA concessions? Tell us which big three pilot group voted down their C2000. You showed em.

I doubt you have ever done much other than fly airplanes. Jump off your little ivory tower and show us all how its done. I for one could use a good laugh.

Hopefully, that problem will solve itself. Soon.Gotta love critics.

Route66
05-26-2018, 04:17 AM
It is so funny to see how detached from reality some pilots are. ALPA is one of the least corrupt organizations imaginable. ALPA concessions? Tell us which big three pilot group voted down their C2000. You showed em.

I doubt you have ever done much other than fly airplanes. Jump off your little ivory tower and show us all how its done. I for one could use a good laugh.

Gotta love critics.

Least corrupt organizations imaginable, huh.

mainlineAF
05-26-2018, 05:51 AM
I never said all Delta FOs make 50k per month. I have no idea where you got that impression. But some Delta FOs are making 50k. Some are making 60k/month and some CAs are +-100k. Itís not a ridiculous claim. Itís reality.



My point is...has that EVER happened at AA? Have we ever had one offs like that? Nope. We have a vastly inferior contract. Did we have 787 FOs making 50k/month when they brought it online? If training buys your trip for IOE can you pick up a 200% premium trip on top of that? Do we have the ability to pick up premium with conflict thus droppings the next scheduled trip with pay protection? Heck no.



I do know that Delta 767 FOs routinely make 250-320k. I donít know many AAL 767 FOs making 250-300k. Our pay rates are similar. Our W2s, average days off, sick accrual, LTD, etc are not. The point is that we have a steep hill to climb to get up to industry average. I think we can do it but we need to educate the group on where our contract comes up short. Too many of us have no idea how far behind we are.



I see what youíre saying. The ability to credit crazy high numbers isnít there at AA. We canít double-dip when we get bought off. True. But Iíd imagine that came about for staffing reasons. More pilots required.

I still think your argument about the delta 350 pilots doesnít really make sense. Thereís maybe a couple hundred guys who have the ability to make a lot of money in that situation and probably only a handful of guys who are actually crediting 150-200 hours/month.

Once we get ACD our general work rules will be similar to DL/UA. Any major w2 discrepancies will be because of our lack of premium pay/ profit sharing. Definitely two things we need to address in the next contract.

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 06:07 AM
Least corrupt organizations imaginable, huh.Yep. Give me a list of more effective less corrupt organizations.

Hint. It's not churches, colleges or sports federations who have molested children and embezzled hundreds of $ millions or Delaware-based public corporations that offshore $ billions to avoid taxes and pay execs hundreds of times more than employees regardless of their performance. Its not banks that cause the global economic crisis or just bought off politicians again to roll back their capital requirements.

I could go on, but I look forward to your list.

Route66
05-26-2018, 07:17 AM
Yep. Give me a list of more effective less corrupt organizations.

Hint. It's not churches, colleges or sports federations who have molested children and embezzled hundreds of $ millions or Delaware-based public corporations that offshore $ billions to avoid taxes and pay execs hundreds of times more than employees regardless of their performance. Its not banks that cause the global economic crisis or just bought off politicians again to roll back their capital requirements.

I could go on, but I look forward to your list.

DCA VICE CHAIRMANS EMAIL posted on this forum.

Top Ten Union Corruption Stories of the Year - National Legal & Policy Center (http://nlpc.org/2018/01/18/top-ten-union-corruption-stories-year-8/)

https://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/compliance/enforce_2018.htm

National Right to Work Foundation Ľ Blog (http://www.nrtw.org/blog/)

I could post even more. Just google union corruption and let me know how that works out. Can other organizations be corrupt? HECK YA! But the difference is that they donít make you pay for it. The union does!

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 07:41 AM
Top Ten Union Corruption Stories of the Year - National Legal & Policy Center (http://nlpc.org/2018/01/18/top-ten-union-corruption-stories-year-8/)
https://www.dol.gov/olms/regs/compliance/enforce_2018.htm
National Right to Work Foundation Ľ Blog (http://www.nrtw.org/blog/)Thanks for proving my point about ALPA being squeaky clean and showing your true colors all in one post.

It must really gall you that your livelihood depends on a 'collective' bargaining agent called a union. And nobody needs to belong to any airline union, but they do have to pay the portion of the dues used to bargain their contract. And your are always free to organize a decertification effort. Good luck. Democracy rules.

Any malfeasance in other unions is completely dwarfed by corporate, governmental and even in faith-based organizations, but you choose to parrot right wing outlets who are funded by corporate, anti-labor forces. If only independent contractor wannabes like you could enjoy the rugged individualism you pretend to seek like stupidly voting no to $1,000. Thank heavens you aren't in a leadership position.

Route66
05-26-2018, 09:45 AM
Thanks for proving my point about ALPA being squeaky clean and showing your true colors all in one post.

It must really gall you that your livelihood depends on a 'collective' bargaining agent called a union. And nobody needs to belong to any airline union, but they do have to pay the portion of the dues used to bargain their contract. And your are always free to organize a decertification effort. Good luck. Democracy rules.

Any malfeasance in other unions is completely dwarfed by corporate, governmental and even in faith-based organizations, but you choose to parrot right wing outlets who are funded by corporate, anti-labor forces. If only independent contractor wannabes like you could enjoy the rugged individualism you pretend to seek like stupidly voting no to $1,000. Thank heavens you aren't in a leadership position.

Making this thread for the benefit of "jcountry" is such a lame excuse to corner "liberal" debate to a small section of the web board that no one is really going to follow anyway.

Here....let me help your cause: "NANY NANY BOO BOO"!!!

There, another liberal argument.

Route66
05-26-2018, 09:49 AM
Thanks for proving my point about ALPA being squeaky clean and showing your true colors all in one post.

It must really gall you that your livelihood depends on a 'collective' bargaining agent called a union. And nobody needs to belong to any airline union, but they do have to pay the portion of the dues used to bargain their contract. And your are always free to organize a decertification effort. Good luck. Democracy rules.

Any malfeasance in other unions is completely dwarfed by corporate, governmental and even in faith-based organizations, but you choose to parrot right wing outlets who are funded by corporate, anti-labor forces. If only independent contractor wannabes like you could enjoy the rugged individualism you pretend to seek like stupidly voting no to $1,000. Thank heavens you aren't in a leadership position.

I didn't "prove your point". I had more time in alpa than you ever did. But the day is coming when NO ONE has to pay any union dues. Whether YOU like it or not. What are you going to do then? Threaten every one who does agree with you and pay dues with their lives?

Typical liberal. What I can't take from you by persuasion, I'LL TAKE BY FORCE!!!

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 10:45 AM
I didn't "prove your point". I had more time in alpa than you ever did.Sure you did. In all your union muckraking efforts nothing about ALPA. Thanks again for proving my point. Not sure how you know who has more time in ALPA, but I have 24 years. I doubt you did much to help your fellow pilots during your tenure judging on your profound ignorance of the role ALPA has played in making the piloting profession worthwhile.

But the day is coming when NO ONE has to pay any union dues. Whether YOU like it or not. What are you going to do then? Threaten every one who does agree with you and pay dues with their lives?Obviously, too much time watching Fox and blaming others for your apparently disappointing career. If your wet dream comes true I will simply keep flying until retirement. Even 'at will' employees have legal protections if not the same outstanding pay, benefits and protections as union employees.

Typical liberal. What I can't take from you by persuasion, I'LL TAKE BY FORCE!!!You might want to take off your tin foil hat, read some history and try to engage your brain in some critical thinking about which party regularly uses force and threats of it in the labor market equation. Your Stockholm Syndrome and cognitive dissonance must be quite a burden. Good luck with that.

Route66
05-26-2018, 11:03 AM
Sure you did. In all your union muckraking efforts nothing about ALPA. Thanks again for proving my point. Not sure how you know who has more time in ALPA, but I have 24 years. I doubt you did much to help your fellow pilots during your tenure judging on your profound ignorance of the role ALPA has played in making the piloting profession worthwhile.

Obviously, too much time watching Fox and blaming others for your apparently disappointing career. If your wet dream comes true I will simply keep flying until retirement. Even 'at will' employees have legal protections if not the same outstanding pay, benefits and protections as union employees.

You might want to take off your tin foil hat, read some history and try to engage your brain in some critical thinking about which party regularly uses force and threats of it in the labor market equation. Your Stockholm Syndrome and cognitive dissonance must be quite a burden. Good luck with that.

Well then, ALPA is clean as the wind-driven snow. ignorance of ALPA, huh. I doubt YOU played the role of helping your fellow pilots short of union dues and the occasional union meeting. Cheap talk on a web board.

No matter. Flying the line vol. I and II speak for themselves. History? More than you'll ever know. Who's D--K is bigger I'm not here to pontificate. Im just the messenger boy...a BOY you simply choose to ignore. So be it.

You are correct that at will employees do have some legal protections. The unions, however, have been dealt a severe blow last week and the next blows for unions are yet to come.

There are solutions, but with the typical union chest thumping that comes from the likes of you I anticipate that the tracks and the train you wish to ignore will be well driven over the likes of you before you know what hits you.

Good luck with your union career. I'll be flying till retirement as well. Only with more cash in my pocket.

jcountry
05-26-2018, 12:20 PM
Least corrupt organizations imaginable, huh.

Yeah....

That statement gave me a great laugh!

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 12:30 PM
That statement gave me a great laugh!They say ignorance is bliss.

Good luck with your union career. I'll be flying till retirement as well. Only with more cash in my pocket.Spoken like a true scab wannabe. Look in the mirror if you want to see what a leach looks like.

No APA or ALPA for me. The Company is giving everything I need. Not the APA. Stop the dues and get rid of pilot unions, and solve your problems.Fortunately, no such thing will happen thanks to ALPA's political clout with both parties especially in the U.S. Senate. So poor little 66 won't get to jump ahead in line.

jcountry
05-26-2018, 12:55 PM
They say ignorance is bliss.



Ignorance of what?

The complete ****show ALPA made of my regional pilot group as they ran out of business?

The hundreds of thousands people pilfered from pilot dies in direct violation of bylaws and ethics.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. I know exactly what ALPA is.

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 01:01 PM
The complete ****show ALPA made of my regional pilot group as they ran out of business?Is ALPA responsible for your airline going out of business? Your expectations of what unions do or can do might be a tad bit unrealistic.

The hundreds of thousands people pilfered from pilot dies in direct violation of bylaws and ethics.Not sure what you are trying to say. Maybe if you give us specifics we could make sense of it.

Go sell crazy somewhere else. I know exactly what ALPA is.All evidence to the contrary, but I can see you don't need anymore crazy.

Route66
05-26-2018, 01:13 PM
They say ignorance is bliss.

Spoken like a true scab wannabe. Look in the mirror if you want to see what a leach looks like.

Fortunately, no such thing will happen thanks to ALPA's political clout with both parties especially in the U.S. Senate. So poor little 66 won't get to jump ahead in line.

Just keep telling that to yourself. Never say never.

Flytolive
05-26-2018, 01:31 PM
Just keep telling that to yourself. Never say never.I love it that you choose to dispute the obvious future of labor law, but not you being a scab wannabe. At least you admit that.

Sliceback
05-26-2018, 04:21 PM
Not entirely true. DAL pilots don't get 270/year until the 20 YOS point. New hires start with 50 and it increases each year until 8 YOS (50, 75, 100, 125, 145, 170, 195, 220) then 9-19 YOS it increases to 240 then at 20 YOS and beyond it's 270. Still better than what we get though.

One point in our favor, depending on how you look at it, is that ours is banked if not used. DAL's is use or lose.

Glad we got that straightened out.

So not all DL guys get 270 hrs. No other major airline, even in ALPA, uses that system.

IMO we need an increase to annual sick hours accumulation and keep the current system.

Laker24
06-04-2018, 08:06 PM
Reposted from C&R (AA pilot message board)

"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"

We are so far behind. I hope our negotiating committee is paying attention.

OVBIII
06-05-2018, 04:40 AM
Reposted from C&R (AA pilot message board)

"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"

We are so far behind. I hope our negotiating committee is paying attention.

Like you, I feel there are some areas that need real focus in our next contract. What I have/am doing is ranking what is most important to me and my pier group. Parts of the reserve rules are the top of my list. I am going to pull parts of the contract out, highlight what I feel is in need of change and I am going to send it the NC and my reps.
We, as a pilot group, need to be a collective and not a partitioned group. Yes, we all have different wants, BUT we all feel we deserve a better contract.
It's easy to say the grass in greener somewhere else, for us to make our grass green we definitely need to do our part. utilize your sound offs and NC contacts as much as you can.

Andrew_VT
06-05-2018, 05:06 AM
"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"

Some people will respond that this guy is an outlier, and is working his a$$ off.

To which I say that we have outliers that work their a$$es off here too, and they don't/can't make anything close to this. Why? Contract language matters more than payrates!

PRS Guitars
06-05-2018, 07:21 AM
Some people will respond that this guy is an outlier, and is working his a$$ off.

To which I say that we have outliers that work their a$$es off here too, and they don't/can't make anything close to this. Why? Contract language matters more than payrates!

Exactly, and I bet the APA will mainly focus on pay rates unfortunately.

GHOST
06-05-2018, 12:25 PM
We need to focus on work rules and quality of life items in this next contract. I have flow with too many captains that only care about their remaining 4+ years. Many (not all) would gladly trade away our remaining quality of life items for a minor hourly rate increase.

Arado 234
06-05-2018, 12:42 PM
Reposted from C&R (AA pilot message board)

"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"

We are so far behind. I hope our negotiating committee is paying attention.

Forward it to the APA negotiating committee, and ask them what their plan is!

Regarding old-timers focusing on their last couple of years, I think the side is slowly shifting towards the btl and fng's. I remain carefully optimistic...

Kebert Xela
06-09-2018, 09:55 PM
Reposted from C&R (AA pilot message board)

"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"

We are so far behind. I hope our negotiating committee is paying attention.


Not trolling but honest questions:

Total time logged vs credit? (Aka time away from home vs soft credit)
Green/white slips? (Seems like thereíd have to be a ďconflictĒ to make that)

What does the AVERAGE Delta NB Capt make vs AVERAGE AA NB Capt?

I have no clue but using outliers is a fools errand in my opinion. No doubt Delta seems to have it better for now; the challenge for me is figuring out what AA can do to help the whole group raise the bar without disenfranchising or fragmenting sections or age groups.

jcountry
06-10-2018, 08:14 AM
Not trolling but honest questions:

Total time logged vs credit? (Aka time away from home vs soft credit)
Green/white slips? (Seems like thereíd have to be a ďconflictĒ to make that)

What does the AVERAGE Delta NB Capt make vs AVERAGE AA NB Capt?

I have no clue but using outliers is a fools errand in my opinion. No doubt Delta seems to have it better for now; the challenge for me is figuring out what AA can do to help the whole group raise the bar without disenfranchising or fragmenting sections or age groups.

Someone can always find an outlier.

Back before 9-11 the #1 F.O. On the MD-11 was by far the highest paid guy at delta. I believe it was almost 600k for his last 3 years. Pension based on that and all. No capt at the time was coming close to that.

He could drop everything and pick up only premium.

Never upgraded.

Why the hell bother-if you are making more than any capt?

No one cares about outliers. Itís the average that affects us all.

Laker24
06-10-2018, 08:17 AM
Not trolling but honest questions:

Total time logged vs credit? (Aka time away from home vs soft credit)
Green/white slips? (Seems like thereíd have to be a ďconflictĒ to make that)

What does the AVERAGE Delta NB Capt make vs AVERAGE AA NB Capt?

I have no clue but using outliers is a fools errand in my opinion. No doubt Delta seems to have it better for now; the challenge for me is figuring out what AA can do to help the whole group raise the bar without disenfranchising or fragmenting sections or age groups.

Maybe post that question on the delta thread. Here you are going to just get replies from a bunch of AA pilots that canít believe we are somehow way behind the industry leaders.

sailingfun
06-10-2018, 08:24 AM
Maybe post that question on the delta thread. Here you are going to just get replies from a bunch of AA pilots that canít believe we are somehow way behind the industry leaders.

I donít believe any CA made 1.3 million at Delta last year. Itís possible but still not likely that a few A350 CAís could break 1 million this year.
A domestic CA could and a lot will break 500K. You would have to work for it however!

iHateAMR
06-10-2018, 10:52 AM
Not trolling but honest questions:

Total time logged vs credit? (Aka time away from home vs soft credit)
Green/white slips? (Seems like thereíd have to be a ďconflictĒ to make that)

What does the AVERAGE Delta NB Capt make vs AVERAGE AA NB Capt?

I have no clue but using outliers is a fools errand in my opinion. No doubt Delta seems to have it better for now; the challenge for me is figuring out what AA can do to help the whole group raise the bar without disenfranchising or fragmenting sections or age groups.

The only fix is hitting the reset button. Good luck.

Al Czervik
06-10-2018, 11:18 AM
The only fix is hitting the reset button. Good luck.

Which time will do shortly.

mainlineAF
06-10-2018, 11:51 AM
Reposted from C&R (AA pilot message board)



"Just got off the phone with my Delta buddy - asked him what his W2 was......Narrow Body CA - 50% on list.....I said let me guess...."350K?" He said no......he was 460K and also maxed out 401K contributions on top. He said his total compensation was over 500K. He said the top Delta CA last year made $1.3mm"



We are so far behind. I hope our negotiating committee is paying attention.



The SWA and DL contracts seem to be written to allow individual pilots to credit more while the AA contract is trying to create more pilot jobs overall.

AA pilots cannot pick up flying over vacation. AA pilots cannot pick up a trip over the footprint of a bought trip. AA reserves cannot pick up trips on off days over guarantee without a trip being designated OG/premium. Lots of other little things like that.

I believe SWA can do all of the things i mentioned and DL some of them as well. Which mindset is better for each pilot group is up for debate.

Boogerface
06-10-2018, 01:12 PM
The SWA and DL contracts seem to be written to allow individual pilots to credit more while the AA contract is trying to create more pilot jobs overall.

AA pilots cannot pick up flying over vacation. AA pilots cannot pick up a trip over the footprint of a bought trip. AA reserves cannot pick up trips on off days over guarantee without a trip being designated OG/premium. Lots of other little things like that.

I believe SWA can do all of the things i mentioned and DL some of them as well. Which mindset is better for each pilot group is up for debate.


DAL guy in my crashpad told me of a heavy FO that cleared 450k last year, cashing in off bought trips and green slips (their version of premium which, by the way, pays 200%). Probably not a lot of AA CAs (much less FOs) that made anywhere close to that last year.

Arado 234
06-10-2018, 05:23 PM
link (https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/finance/news/american-airlines-ceo-doug-parker-154000372.html)

Filler

PRS Guitars
06-10-2018, 07:13 PM
Just a reminder, after *****ing here, please email the APA contract team with your suggestion for improving this area of the contract. They would like one subject per email, so donít feel like you need to wait until you compile a list. Send it now!

Not sure if I should post the address, so for now PM me if you need it.

Varks
06-10-2018, 07:38 PM
The grass is always greener. No doubt Delta is a better place to be. Thatís today. Things change often in this industry. I think I am better off here at AA over my career so far. I would have been furloughed if I were hired at Delta or United when AA hired me. We need and deserve improvement in our contract. We can complain all we want but it takes time. I have no doubt our pilots hired in the last couple of years are willing to fight the fight. My fellow legacy AA brethren are rather naive. They donít know what they donít know.

Southwest is unique in that they have been consistently making it work. I did not apply there and donít regret it. I am sure I would be bored. Richer yes but flying a 737 an entire career would be dull. Not my cup of tea. Maybe they will buy different aircraft some day? Things change.

Arado 234
06-13-2018, 03:08 PM
In other irrelevant news, the chick doing the safety video has been fired due to her unsatisfactory attendance.

A sign of things to come?

Frip
06-14-2018, 07:17 AM
The pilot contract should be written for and designed to protect the career and earnings of the pilots earning their livings here, bidding and flying their schedules - preferably at 75-78 MAX scheduled, taking their vacations and enjoying their time off and QOL while at work.

Schedule integrity, days off and trip ownership should be very vigorously defended and very expensive for the company to violate - and then only when it is genuinely unavoidable.

All extra time, over LCW for example, should be Premium.

Folks wanna' do something else full tie and use this jon as a part-time golden goose - fine... Knock yourselves out. Just don't expect those that earn their livings working here to subsidize you.

Schemes that involve intentionally creating conflicts or other means to stay home and get paid are a cost of doing business - one that gets transferred directly back to the rest of the pilot group. The actual protection for bona fide conflicts etc. is a necessary and proper exercise, and should remain and be strengthened. The scammers ultimately cost their "fellow pilots" who are unable to participate - both in actual $$$ and in quality of life.

The intentional schemes and the ability to manipulate them should be eliminated or at least minimized to the greatest extent possible, and represent an untold but very real and direct cost to the rest if the pilots - and the ultimate in "protection turned entitlement".

We don't like those entitlement thingies.

Gonna' take a willingness to slaughter a few Sacred Bovines.

Saabs
06-14-2018, 07:32 AM
Letís get rid of makeup altogether!!

billyho
06-14-2018, 07:55 AM
Letís get rid of makeup altogether!!

We better have some strong language because over the next 8-10 we will be retiring so many that they won't be able to keep up. Who gets screwed then? The line Pilots!!! If they are gonna work us then it better hurt the hell out of their wallets and help ours. This working contract is pretty awful in it's current state.

Floobs
06-14-2018, 09:39 AM
In other irrelevant news, the chick doing the safety video has been fired due to her unsatisfactory attendance.

A sign of things to come?

Who's that?

Floobs
06-14-2018, 09:40 AM
link (https://www.yahoo.com/amphtml/finance/news/american-airlines-ceo-doug-parker-154000372.html)

Filler

Adam Levine-Weinberg
That guy is always writing articles like this.

sherpster
06-14-2018, 11:36 AM
The pilot contract should be written for and designed to protect the career and earnings of the pilots earning their livings here, bidding and flying their schedules - preferably at 75-78 MAX scheduled, taking their vacations and enjoying their time off and QOL while at work.

Schedule integrity, days off and trip ownership should be very vigorously defended and very expensive for the company to violate - and then only when it is genuinely unavoidable.

All extra time, over LCW for example, should be Premium.

Folks wanna' do something else full tie and use this jon as a part-time golden goose - fine... Knock yourselves out. Just don't expect those that earn their livings working here to subsidize you.

Schemes that involve intentionally creating conflicts or other means to stay home and get paid are a cost of doing business - one that gets transferred directly back to the rest of the pilot group. The actual protection for bona fide conflicts etc. is a necessary and proper exercise, and should remain and be strengthened. The scammers ultimately cost their "fellow pilots" who are unable to participate - both in actual $$$ and in quality of life.

The intentional schemes and the ability to manipulate them should be eliminated or at least minimized to the greatest extent possible, and represent an untold but very real and direct cost to the rest if the pilots - and the ultimate in "protection turned entitlement".

We don't like those entitlement thingies.

Gonna' take a willingness to slaughter a few Sacred Bovines.

Can someone translate this into English for me?

seafeye
06-14-2018, 01:21 PM
How about equal pay for reserves?
Example.
We are paid 76 hours for SC.
Basically we have an agreement with the company that we will be ready on call, available, fit for duty, on short notice to leave for 1 to 5 days at a time.

Currently if pilot A does a 2 day trip.
8 hours one day and 2 the next. He will get 10:20 credit.

Pilot B flys a 2 day trip.
2 hours one day. 2 hours the next.
He will get 10:20 credit.

Pilot A did more work. Should he not deserve to be paid more?

We are getting on average 4:22/day to be on call. If you fly any more than that, you are working for free.

Can we not work for free? Can pilot A get paid over guarantee for anything over 4:22?
We should. Because if we fly 76 hours then sit reserve for a day or more....then above 76 itís all for free.

PRS Guitars
06-14-2018, 02:01 PM
How about equal pay for reserves?
Example.
We are paid 76 hours for SC.
Basically we have an agreement with the company that we will be ready on call, available, fit for duty, on short notice to leave for 1 to 5 days at a time.

Currently if pilot A does a 2 day trip.
8 hours one day and 2 the next. He will get 10:20 credit.

Pilot B flys a 2 day trip.
2 hours one day. 2 hours the next.
He will get 10:20 credit.

Pilot A did more work. Should he not deserve to be paid more?

We are getting on average 4:22/day to be on call. If you fly any more than that, you are working for free.

Can we not work for free? Can pilot A get paid over guarantee for anything over 4:22?
We should. Because if we fly 76 hours then sit reserve for a day or more....then above 76 itís all for free.

Should be 5:15 a day for reserves instead of 4:03 or 4:22. should be 5:15 for a day of training instead of 4:00, should be 5:15 for a day of vacation instead of 3:40.

its unbelievable to me that this isn't the case, and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation. It seems to just be accepted practice...

Ar Pilot
06-14-2018, 03:33 PM
Thoughts?

https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/06/10/american-airlines-ceo-doug-parker-is-deep-in-a-mes.aspx

FLPS30GRDWN
06-14-2018, 04:42 PM
Adam Levine-Weinberg

That guy is always writing articles like this.



Agreed, donít put to much stock in motley fool authors, however....

Iíve been scratching my head the last several years trying to understand how going into more debt (stock buy backs) is a successful long term business plan. (I understand what it does to stock prices/inventory)

Investing in assets (planes and processes) that turn profits and create efficient gains... I get it.

The attitude of, ďMoney is cheap so we should leverage as much as possible!Ē Is a recipe for disaster.

Ex. I could leverage a million dollar home and a few luxury cars but I donít. Why? Because

1. I donít NEED them
2. I would loose freedom (opportunity cost)
3. Iíd be poorly positioned for the next downturn

IMO Would be nice if AA took a more conservative fiscal approach.

Laker24
06-14-2018, 04:44 PM
Consider the source. Have you heard of that analyst? Neither has anybody else. AAL has the youngest fleet in the industry. DALs fleet is nearly twice as old on average. I donít think Boeing is going to give DAL 400 aircraft for free. When they make their big orders the interest rates will be much higher than what Parker has locked in. Heís going to look very smart in a few years. AAL has a much higher liquidity cushion to offset their higher debt load.

Laker24
06-14-2018, 04:47 PM
Agreed, donít put to much stock in motley fool authors, however....

Iíve been scratching my head the last several years trying to understand how going into more debt (stock buy backs) is a successful long term business plan. (I understand what it does to stock prices/inventory)

Investing in assets (planes and processes) that turn profits and create efficient gains... I get it.

The attitude of, ďMoney is cheap so we should leverage as much as possible!Ē Is a recipe for disaster.

Ex. I could leverage a million dollar home and a few luxury cars but I donít. Why? Because

1. I donít NEED them
2. I would loose freedom (opportunity cost)
3. Iíd be poorly positioned for the next downturn

IMO Would be nice if AA took a more conservative fiscal approach.

You donít need multiple luxury cars. AAL needed to renew the fleet. They needed a competitive business lounge product. Much smarter to make those investments at artificially low interest rates.

mainlineAF
06-14-2018, 05:00 PM
Agreed, donít put to much stock in motley fool authors, however....

Iíve been scratching my head the last several years trying to understand how going into more debt (stock buy backs) is a successful long term business plan. (I understand what it does to stock prices/inventory)

Investing in assets (planes and processes) that turn profits and create efficient gains... I get it.

The attitude of, ďMoney is cheap so we should leverage as much as possible!Ē Is a recipe for disaster.

Ex. I could leverage a million dollar home and a few luxury cars but I donít. Why? Because

1. I donít NEED them
2. I would loose freedom (opportunity cost)
3. Iíd be poorly positioned for the next downturn

IMO Would be nice if AA took a more conservative fiscal approach.



Agree on the stock buy backs but UA and even DL have bought back a lot as well.

I donít know much about them but from what I understand companies buy back stock when they think it is undervalued. I think it also raises the share price by removing shares from the market. If thatís true no wonder Parker and co buy back tons of stock. Theyíre basically paid in all stock.

I could be completely wrong on all that as i donít do finance. I invest in fake boobs for the wife, luxury cars, bitcoin and Iraqi dinars. #genius

Frip
06-14-2018, 05:11 PM
"Should be 5:15 a day for reserves instead of 4:03 or 4:22. should be 5:15 for a day of training instead of 4:00, should be 5:15 for a day of vacation instead of 3:40.

its unbelievable to me that this isn't the case, and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation. It seems to just be accepted practice..."

Yeah, and that last bit.

Contract your reps

hockeypilot44
06-14-2018, 05:24 PM
Can someone translate this into English for me?


He's not senior enough to work the system and is jealous.

Frip
06-14-2018, 05:35 PM
He's not senior enough to work the system and is jealous.


Not the least bit jealous, and it's not about me.

As far as I am concerned, there is no one more fortunate than I, no one appreciates that more, and I still actually really like my job.

In the view from a couple of paces back, AA knows exactly what it costs to crew the airline. The various Protections from lost income and schedule disruptions because of circumstances that are no fault of the pilot are costs that are necessary and entirely appropriately come back to the pilot group itself in negotiations.

When individual pilots intentionally manipulate those circumstances expressly in order to take advantage of those protections then they become entitlements, and the cost of their individual Good Deal also comes back to the group to at negotiation time.

We all subsidize those who work the system, rather than working dor a living.

That sentence and concept should sound familiar to most of you.

sherpster
06-14-2018, 05:50 PM
ďWhen individual pilots intentionally manipulate those circumstances expressly in order to take advantage of those protections then they become entitlements, aĒ

How do pilots do this again?

FLPS30GRDWN
06-14-2018, 05:57 PM
You donít need multiple luxury cars. AAL needed to renew the fleet. They needed a competitive business lounge product. Much smarter to make those investments at artificially low interest rates.



Youíre missing my point. Yes, I agree product needed updated. Thatís why I stated that investment in ASSETS with low interest rates is understandable.

MainelineAF is correct in that when a company buys its own stock back the overall quantity decreases. Theoretically this will drive stock price up. (Economics 101)

It is very interesting indeed that the leadership is compensated in stock.

Is it a conflict of interest that compensation can be tied so closely to the folks writing checks and assuming debt?

From what I know, I believe it is.

Google ďCEO STOCK BUY BACKSĒ. thereís a lot of professional opinions out there. I would encourage anyone to do theyíre own reading from both points of view and form your own opinion.

FLPS30GRDWN
06-14-2018, 06:16 PM
To be clear...

AA has placed a bet.

Theyíre betting that the debt incurred (and accruing interest) to purchase AA stock today will be lower than what the future value of the stock price will become. Parker has said a few times he believes AAL stock is worth $75 per share.

Sounds great but thereís unlimited variables at play that no one has a crystal ball.

Is it a risk? Yes!
Is it wise? Uhh...
What are similar companies doing? Thatís easy to see.
Will it pay off? Welp... time WILL tell.

Itís like asking a new hire if he made a wise decision to stay at AA when he/she had an offer at FedEx and Delta.

Time WILL tell.

Cheddar
06-14-2018, 06:17 PM
Stock buy backs havenít raised our value, and the scary thing is Ďweí keep doing it in a vain hope it will drive our price up (which it hasnít).

With the $8-9B in buy backs we could have paid down debt OR invested in IT to replace our 1960ís DOS based system, invest in the product and the employees or the training department that is over stressed before the Ďrealí hiring begins.

We could pay for our dream contract with less than a quarters stock buy back. Please email that to your reps - that we donít buy off on the outdated concept that thereís ďonly xxx million to spend on your contract, soooooo...Ē

FUPM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Frip
06-14-2018, 06:34 PM
ďWhen individual pilots intentionally manipulate those circumstances expressly in order to take advantage of those protections then they become entitlements, aĒ

How do pilots do this again?


Ohhh, "They would never...", huh?

I am reasonably sure that you and eceryone reading this has at least a general idea how some do.

sherpster
06-15-2018, 03:54 AM
Ohhh, "They would never...", huh?

I am reasonably sure that you and eceryone reading this has at least a general idea how some do.

I honestly dont so unless you spell it out in plain language then I will never know wtf you are ďhintingĒ at. Be a man and say exactly what you mean and quit fiddle fíing around the accusation.

Frip
06-15-2018, 06:19 AM
Mustn't get out much...

There is a long and illustrious and documented history of "how to", and everyone I have ever met is at least vaguely familiar with at least some of the techniques involved.

I'm not interested in furthering the process or your education, you can do your own reaearch.

Meanwhile, we are all paying for a the Good Deal enjoyed by a few, and will again in the upcoming Section 6.

Genuine protections are necessary and an appropriate cost for us as a group to bear. When a few deliberately and aggressively work to trigger those "protections", it costs the group negotiating capital and money and sometimes the actual protections themselves.

That is just a realistic look at history.

Take it how ever you want, and do what ever you want with it.

PRS Guitars
06-15-2018, 06:29 AM
Mustn't get out much...

There is a long and illustrious and documented history of "how to", and everyone I have ever met is at least vaguely familiar with at least some of the techniques involved.

Ig

Heís new and former military, so he legitimately doesnít know what youíre talking about. Iíve been here 4 years (hired LUS, also former military) I think youíre referring to practices before PBS that Iíve heard about. ďConflict biddingĒ and also multiple trip trades to drop for vacation. Just a guess, but if wrong count me in as ďnot getting out muchĒ.

Name User
06-15-2018, 07:19 AM
Guys at LAA used to borrow trips to create conflicts or something, I don't know the entire story, but from my understanding that has all come to a stop after PBS.

I'd be interesting to learn more ins and outs, you'd think APA would have a "how to" guide.

There's the whole IMAX thing but you're required to work like a dog for 11 months just to get one off...

Frip
06-15-2018, 07:26 AM
PBS didn't stop anything.

Changed the method, yes.

"Adapt and Overcome"

We still subsidize it/them, and sometimes in broad and painful ways.

If he is new enough to really not have heard, or know, then I apologise for being snarky about it. The general principles are common knowledge. The trading grouos and cartels and networks and some of the special tricks and turns less so, but hardly unknown.

Some of it as simple as guys refusing landings, or refusing to log them, usually combined with creative "borrowing" of trips that they have no intention of keeping or flying in order to create multiple and extended illegalities and conflicts.

That would be the proverbial tip of the berg.

Sliceback
06-15-2018, 06:50 PM
Rather than bemoaning it there should be classes on the issue.

full of luv
06-15-2018, 07:24 PM
Stock buy backs havenít raised our value, and the scary thing is Ďweí keep doing it in a vain hope it will drive our price up (which it hasnít).

With the $8-9B in buy backs we could have paid down debt OR invested in IT to replace our 1960ís DOS based system, invest in the product and the employees or the training department that is over stressed before the Ďrealí hiring begins.

We could pay for our dream contract with less than a quarters stock buy back. Please email that to your reps - that we donít buy off on the outdated concept that thereís ďonly xxx million to spend on your contract, soooooo...Ē

FUPM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Stock buybacks are the byproduct of mgmt paying itself with stock options that only gain/increase in value if the stock appreciates.

Everyone likes to cheer the CEO not taking a salary and being tied to the company stock, but then the CEO manages the company with a stock return perspective first and foremost.

seafeye
06-16-2018, 03:56 AM
Should be 5:15 a day for reserves instead of 4:03 or 4:22. should be 5:15 for a day of training instead of 4:00, should be 5:15 for a day of vacation instead of 3:40.

its unbelievable to me that this isn't the case, and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation. It seems to just be accepted practice...


I flew with a union rep and I tried to explain this. But he just didnít understand. It seemed as he had ďbigger more important ď things to negotiate for. This whole 76/month thing needs to change. It should be looked at per day. Each individual day has value. Any day flown over 4:22 should be above quarantee.

mainlineAF
06-16-2018, 06:09 AM
I flew with a union rep and I tried to explain this. But he just didnít understand. It seemed as he had ďbigger more important ď things to negotiate for. This whole 76/month thing needs to change. It should be looked at per day. Each individual day has value. Any day flown over 4:22 should be above quarantee.



That will be hard to negotiate because that part of our reserve system is industry standard.

Flytolive
06-16-2018, 07:02 AM
Should be 5:15 a day for reserves instead of 4:03 or 4:22. should be 5:15 for a day of training instead of 4:00, should be 5:15 for a day of vacation instead of 3:40. its unbelievable to me that this isn't the case, and I have yet to hear a reasonable explanation.I flew with a union rep and I tried to explain this. But he just didn’t understand. It seemed as he had “bigger more important “ things to negotiate for. Airline: VA/day (Max days), Train/day (S/L), Reserve/day
AAL: 3:40 (31), 4:00/4:13, 4:03/4:22
DAL: 3:30 (35), Credit/4:00, 4:00/4:44
UAL: 3:15 (42), 3:00/3:45, 4:03/4:22

Is it true that that only 1-2 reserve days off are movable for AAL domestic and int'l reserve? If so that is quite valuable. 6-7 are movable for UA int'l and 6-8 for all DAL reserves.

If UA could get 4:00 (42), 4:00/5:00, 4:15/4:30 that would set a strong standard (4 x 30 days = 120 hours/month).

Laker24
06-16-2018, 08:57 AM
Total yearly vacation credit:

AAL 113.6 hours
DAL 122.5 hours
UAL 136.5 hours

Al Czervik
06-16-2018, 10:49 AM
Total yearly vacation credit:

AAL 113.6 hours
DAL 122.5 hours
UAL 136.5 hours

It takes longe to earn weeks at UAL.

PRS Guitars
06-16-2018, 11:30 AM
Airline: VA/day (Max days), Train/day (S/L), Reserve/day
AAL: 3:40 (31), 4:00/4:13, 4:03/4:22
DAL: 3:30 (35), Credit/4:00, 4:00/4:44
UAL: 3:15 (42), 3:00/3:45, 4:03/4:22

.

I get it, that this is standard in the industry. As someone relatively new to the industry (4+ years) I find it a perplexing (read...concessionary) practice. Think outside the box on this...

Flytolive
06-16-2018, 11:50 AM
I get it, that this is standard in the industry. As someone relatively new to the industry (4+ years) I find it a perplexing (read...concessionary) practice. Think outside the box on this...5:15 x 30 days = 157.5 hours of pay for a month of vacation is definitely "outside the box" especially since that would be a 31% increase for AA pilots and a 62% increase for UA pilots.

What is your definition of concessionary?

seafeye
06-16-2018, 01:54 PM
That will be hard to negotiate because that part of our reserve system is industry standard.


Just cause everyone is doing it...

A calendar day starts at 12:01am. And ends at midnight. This has been the norm long before airlines. Letís start with that.

Then when we get paid. Iím fine with a 4 hour pay credit for a days reserve.
Anything flown above that is credited as such.
We must get paid for each day or portion of that we are at the companies disposal.
No gate agent/ramp/office worker has to come into work for free. Neither should we.
A reserve day at home being on call for 12-14 hours should not be worth nothing or next to nothing. If itís worth 4:22. Then credit me 4:22 each day.

Even the regionals have this now. Start at the bottom and build a solid contract from the ground up.

Sliceback
06-16-2018, 02:07 PM
Total yearly vacation credit:

AAL 113.6 hours
DAL 122.5 hours
UAL 136.5 hours

Rule #1 of the Internet - donít believe everything you read, even if itís partially true. And if itís partially true, but obfuscates the truth, you have to wonder if itís an honest mistake or deliberate?

Vacation pay hours (nearest full hour) -

Yr AA DL UA
2. 77. 49. 52
6. 81. 49. 52
10. 95. 74. 75
16. 114. 98. 98
20. 114. 123. 123. #1
26. 114. 123. 137
30+114. 123. 136
35. #2
52(?). #3
#4

#1 - DL 300+ hrs behind AA. ALPA
UA 270+ hrs behind AA. ALPA

#2. - UA vacation value surpasses AA

#3. - DL vacation value surpasses AA

#4. - donít trust me, double check the data yourself.

flyinawa
06-16-2018, 02:15 PM
.........
I could be completely wrong on all that as i donít do finance. I invest in fake boobs for the wife, luxury cars, bitcoin and Iraqi dinars. #genius

LOL. I donít always agree with you... but you crack me up. 1st round is on me.

PRS Guitars
06-16-2018, 03:34 PM
5:15 x 30 days = 157.5 hours of pay for a month of vacation is definitely "outside the box" especially since that would be a 31% increase for AA pilots and a 62% increase for UA pilots.

What is your definition of concessionary?

Working a day of training for 4 hours pay...it's a lot more work than flying a 4 hour leg. Seems low to me. Vacation...it takes 1.43 days of vacation to cover 1 day off, how does that make sense? It doesn't to me. Before PBS (and currently at SWA) one would get the vacation pay PLUS the value of conflict trips (which could be higher than 157 hours).

On the reserve side, I could see paying us 4 a day as a retainer, if not used, but after being used pay us like Seafeye talked about, or just pay us 5:15 a day.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter, I know full well the APA won't touch any of the above.

PRS Guitars
06-16-2018, 03:39 PM
Rule #1 of the Internet - donít believe everything you read, even if itís partially true. And if itís partially true, but obfuscates the truth, you have to wonder if itís an honest mistake or deliberate?

Vacation pay hours (nearest full hour) -

Yr AA DL UA
2. 77. 49. 52
6. 81. 49. 52
10. 95. 74. 75
16. 114. 98. 98
20. 114. 123. 123. #1
26. 114. 123. 137
30+114. 123. 136
35. #2
52(?). #3
#4

#1 - DL 300+ hrs behind AA. ALPA
UA 270+ hrs behind AA. ALPA

#2. - UA vacation value surpasses AA

#3. - DL vacation value surpasses AA

#4. - donít trust me, double check the data yourself.

Agreed, it's a great value over a career for an AA new hire, and front loaded too. 3 weeks vacation is great for jr AA guys. Don't mention this too loudly, don't want it traded in at the next contract.

jcountry
06-16-2018, 03:52 PM
Stock buy backs havenít raised our value, and the scary thing is Ďweí keep doing it in a vain hope it will drive our price up (which it hasnít).

With the $8-9B in buy backs we could have paid down debt OR invested in IT to replace our 1960ís DOS based system, invest in the product and the employees or the training department that is over stressed before the Ďrealí hiring begins.

We could pay for our dream contract with less than a quarters stock buy back. Please email that to your reps - that we donít buy off on the outdated concept that thereís ďonly xxx million to spend on your contract, soooooo...Ē

FUPM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The only logical reason I can think of for all these buybacks is that fewer shares=higher earnings per share figures.

Makes the stock look slightly more attractive, but definitely not worth going deep into debt for.

Laker24
06-16-2018, 04:27 PM
Rule #1 of the Internet - donít believe everything you read, even if itís partially true. And if itís partially true, but obfuscates the truth, you have to wonder if itís an honest mistake or deliberate?

Vacation pay hours (nearest full hour) -

Yr AA DL UA
2. 77. 49. 52
6. 81. 49. 52
10. 95. 74. 75
16. 114. 98. 98
20. 114. 123. 123. #1
26. 114. 123. 137
30+114. 123. 136
35. #2
52(?). #3
#4

#1 - DL 300+ hrs behind AA. ALPA
UA 270+ hrs behind AA. ALPA

#2. - UA vacation value surpasses AA

#3. - DL vacation value surpasses AA

#4. - donít trust me, double check the data yourself.

Great data. Thanks for posting that. Looks like AA has industry leading vacation.

Flytolive
06-16-2018, 10:05 PM
Rule #1 of the Internet - don’t believe everything you read, even if it’s partially true. And if it’s partially true, but obfuscates the truth, you have to wonder if it’s an honest mistake or deliberate?Agreed. Your data is not only incorrect but incomplete also.

Vacation pay hours (nearest full hour) -

Yr AA DL UA
2. 77. 49. 46.
3. 77. 49. 46.
4. 77. 49. 46.
5. 77. 49. 68.
6. 81. 74. 68.
7. 84. 74. 68.
8. 88. 74. 68.
9. 92. 74. 68.
10. 95. 74. 68.
11. 99. 74. 114.
12. 103. 98. 114.
13. 106. 74. 114.
14. 110. 98. 114.
15. 114. 98. 114.
16. 114. 98. 114.
17. 114. 98. 114.
18. 114. 98. 114.
19. 114. 123. 114.
20. 114. 123. 114.
21. 114. 123. 114.
22. 114. 123. 114.
23. 114. 123. 114.
24. 114. 123. 114.
25. 114. 123. 137.
26. 114. 123. 137.
27. 114. 123. 137.
28. 114. 123. 137.
29. 114. 123. 137.
30. 114. 123. 137.
31+114. 123. 137.

#4. - don’t trust me, double check the data yourself.Done.

OVBIII
06-17-2018, 04:05 AM
Iíd say Sliceís data is fairly accurate if we are to look at yours. Kudos to you both for looking that up.

OVBIII
06-17-2018, 04:06 AM
Iíd say Sliceís data is fairly accurate if we are to look at yours. Kudos to you both for looking that up.

And by ďif we are to look atĒ I mean compare. Which both are helpful

Sliceback
06-17-2018, 07:27 AM
Great data. Thanks for posting that. Looks like AA has industry leading vacation.

Nope. That goes to either SW, FX, or UPS. theyíre better, I just havenít compared if one is obviously the best.

Flying Boxes
06-17-2018, 10:26 AM
Nope. That goes to either SW, FX, or UPS. theyíre better, I just havenít compared if one is obviously the best.

FDX is a different system form, but days off are days off! How to manipulate ( extremely generous ) these hours is too in depth for this discussion, but for comparisons here is the information.

Vacation
years 1-4: 90 hours (15 days * 6 hours)
years 5-9: 132 hours (22 days * 6 hours)
years 10-20: 168 hours (29 days * 6 hours)
years 20+: 216 hours (36 days * 6 hours)

sherpster
06-17-2018, 11:42 AM
FDX is a different system form, but days off are days off! How to manipulate ( extremely generous ) these hours is too in depth for this discussion, but for comparisons here is the information.

Vacation
years 1-4: 90 hours (15 days * 6 hours)
years 5-9: 132 hours (22 days * 6 hours)
years 10-20: 168 hours (29 days * 6 hours)
years 20+: 216 hours (36 days * 6 hours)

But you have to do a lot of night flying, no thanks . Cue the response ď we fly during the day OR you guys do red eyesĒ

ORDinary
06-17-2018, 11:45 AM
Vacation pay hours (nearest full hour) -

Yr AA DL UA
2. 77. 49. 46.
3. 77. 49. 46.
4. 77. 49. 46.
5. 77. 49. 68.
6. 81. 74. 68.
7. 84. 74. 68.
8. 88. 74. 68.
9. 92. 74. 68.
10. 95. 74. 68.
11. 99. 74. 114.
12. 103. 98. 114.
13. 106. 74. 114.
14. 110. 98. 114.
15. 114. 98. 114.
16. 114. 98. 114.
17. 114. 98. 114.
18. 114. 98. 114.
19. 114. 123. 114.
20. 114. 123. 114.
21. 114. 123. 114.
22. 114. 123. 114.
23. 114. 123. 114.
24. 114. 123. 114.
25. 114. 123. 137.
26. 114. 123. 137.
27. 114. 123. 137.
28. 114. 123. 137.
29. 114. 123. 137.
30. 114. 123. 137.
31+114. 123. 137.


Assuming your data is correct, here are the cumulative totals:
Yr.....AA..........DL..............UA
2......77......49 (-28).....46 (-31)
3.....154.....98 (-56).....92 (-62)
4.....231....147 (-84)....138 (-93)
5.....308....196 (-112)...206 (-102)
6.....389....270 (-119)...274 (-115)
7.....473....344 (-129)...342 (-131)
8.....561....418 (-143)...410 (-151)
9.....653....492 (-161)...478 (-175)
10...748....566 (-182)...546 (-202)
11...847....640 (-207)...660 (-187)
12...950....738 (-212)...774 (-176)
13..1056...836 (-220)...888 (-168)
14..1166...934 (-232)..1002 (-164)
15..1280..1032 (-248)..1116 (-164)
16..1394..1130 (-264)..1230 (-164)
17..1508..1228 (-280)..1344 (-164)
18..1622..1326 (-296)..1458 (-164)
19..1736..1449 (-287)..1572 (-164)
20..1850..1572 (-278)..1686 (-164)
21..1964..1695 (-269)..1800 (-164)
22..2078..1818 (-260)..1914 (-164)
23..2192..1941 (-251)..2028 (-164)
24..2306..2064 (-242)..2142 (-164)
25..2420..2187 (-233)..2279 (-141)
26..2534..2310 (-224)..2416 (-118)
27..2648..2433 (-215)..2553 (-95)
28..2762..2556 (-206)..2690 (-72)
29..2876..2679 (-197)..2827 (-49)
30..2990..2802 (-188)..2964 (-26)
31..3104..2925 (-179)..3101 (-3)

Flying Boxes
06-17-2018, 12:32 PM
But you have to do a lot of night flying, no thanks . Cue the response ď we fly during the day OR you guys do red eyesĒ

Doesn't bother me you don't want to work nights! But...

This thread was about vacation, not a comparision hours of operations. :cool: So by your response, you think the only way to increase vacation hours is to fly more nights? That doesn't Make sense! :D

So stick to the subject of the thread.

I was providing an idea of whats "other" company contracts have for vacation to hopefully help AA set a higher bar for all to aspire too. ;)

Flytolive
06-17-2018, 12:52 PM
Assuming your data is correct, here are the cumulative totals:Now apply the pay rates for those tenures. Guess whose vacation is more valuable, and that is before getting a higher vacation hours/day in the next Section 6.

PRS Guitars
06-17-2018, 02:36 PM
But you have to do a lot of night flying, no thanks . Cue the response ď we fly during the day OR you guys do red eyesĒ

But you missed his point entirely. He has validated my idea of 5:15 per day of vacation. Nearly every AA pilots response has been, that I'm asking for the moon or something, and here they (Fedex) have better than what I asked for already!

Flytolive
06-18-2018, 04:09 AM
[QUOTE=PRS Guitars;2616271]But you missed his point entirely. He has validated my idea of 5:15 per day of vacation. Nearly every AA pilots response has been, that I'm asking for the moon or something, and here they (Fedex) have better than what I asked for already![/QUOTEFedex and UPS didn't go through bankruptcy so they still have vacation override and defined benefit plans. Managements are not going to agree to bring back vacation override and most pilots want nothing to do with a defined benefit plan at least as they were previously formulated. Fortunately, with consolidation is appears that the airlines have more reliable profits like the cargo carriers so we can continue the positive pattern bargaining.

FLPS30GRDWN
06-18-2018, 06:09 AM
I caution anyone to not make assumptions about what you believe management will or will not do. That mindset is largely responsible for where we are now. (JCBA)

Also donít make assumptions on what you believe the group will or will not want.

The only way to KNOW what the majority wants or does not want is to poll just like the only way to know what mgt will or will not agree to sit at the table and state what we as a group want.

A sample size will tell a lot.

When do contract surveys go out btw?

jcountry
06-18-2018, 08:30 AM
I caution anyone to not make assumptions about what you believe management will or will not do. That mindset is largely responsible for where we are now. (JCBA)

Also donít make assumptions on what you believe the group will or will not want.

The only way to KNOW what the majority wants or does not want is to poll just like the only way to know what mgt will or will not agree to sit at the table and state what we as a group want.

A sample size will tell a lot.

When do contract surveys go out btw?

Surveys are a waste of paper products.

No use in killing trees uselessly.

We all know our president is great at unilateral negotiations! He did a YUGE job the last time he negotiated something on his own. No downside to that agreement-at all....

Saabs
06-18-2018, 08:50 AM
Surveys are a waste of paper products.

No use in killing trees uselessly.

We all know our president is great at unilateral negotiations! He did a YUGE job the last time he negotiated something on his own. No downside to that agreement-at all....
Iím not remembering a paper survey only electronic.

We get it, you donít like Carey. Lots of people donít.

Flytolive
06-18-2018, 09:23 AM
I caution anyone to not make assumptions about what you believe management will or will not do.Cool, because I want my entire pension back, 100% raise, health insurance until my spouse and I die with zero copays and I only want to work on Wednesdays for 100 hours credit/month.

Arado 234
06-18-2018, 11:56 AM
Cool, because I want my entire pension back, 100% raise, health insurance until my spouse and I die with zero copays and I only want to work on Wednesdays for 100 hours credit/month.

Thanks for lowering the bar!

flyinawa
06-19-2018, 12:07 AM
Cool, because I want my entire pension back, 100% raise, health insurance until my spouse and I die with zero copays and I only want to work on Wednesdays for 100 hours credit/month.

Wait...do you mean EVERY Wednesday?

Arado 234
06-19-2018, 03:16 AM
President Carey Sells us Short (Again)!


Well, perhaps it has finally come to an end! President Carey has put his signature on an agreement to settle the dispute over the programming of daily open time coverage and reserve assignment system, (DOTC/RAS), allowing the company to automate a problematic portion of the JCBA and settling what started off as an unprecedented amount of leverage APA once held by the ďGreen DecemberĒ scheduling debacle.


However, the fact remains that the agreement inked by Carey was never reviewed by your elected Board of Directors, negotiated by the Negotiating Committee, deliberated on by a committee not handpicked by the President, nor presented to the BOD prior to its approval as required by the C&B (since it concerns pay, benefits or work rules). Why the secrecy? Should this be of concern to the membership?


President Carey has made a profession of working around, instead of with, the Board of Directors and the Negotiating Committee. He has taken the adage ďit is better to ask for forgiveness rather than permissionĒ to the extreme. He will soon engage the bulk of his over $60,000.00 per month propaganda machine to ďspinĒ this agreement from lemons into lemonade (Blue Engine + Dennis Overmann + Dennis Tajer PU). His will receive justification for his actions from the over $800,000.00 per year APA pays for his lawyers (general counsel alone).


But the fact remains that the bulk of the membership, at least those flying narrow body schedules on the back end of the seniority list, will carry the bulk of the load on yet another agreement that sells their scheduling rules short. It will be hard to quantify the degradation in their quality of life.


Nevertheless, it wonít matter to those like Carey who are triple digit, triple 7 Captains nor to those who assisted him in forging this agreement; long-term professional APA volunteers who havenít flown the line in quite some time, like Dave Quinlan, the Scheduling Committee Chairman. They will never experience the pain these agreed upon givebacks put upon the membership. For you and I it will be a different story.


Just a short seven months ago it seemed that APA held all the cards. We could have asked for permanent holiday override pay for ANY trip that touched Christmas (and received it!). We could have demanded permanent and long-lasting changes to our scheduling rules and made them stick. We could have at least insisted the company comply with our negotiated work rules present in the JCBA.


Instead we bought the Presidentís line about ďtrustingĒ the company, even though their trust was not warranted nor earned. Now, after having sold back multiple grievances for pennies on the dollar, holding more in abeyance, and simply suspending the grievance process for the three most grieved upon sections of the contract, we have succumbed to Careyís vision of the future.


The Board of Directors can override Careyís decision to unilaterally change pay, benefits and work rules. However, General Counsel will argue that any dispute the President labels as a ďPresidential GrievanceĒ can be settled unilaterally by the President without the membershipís elected representatives input or approval, and I doubt the Board will exercise the decisiveness it takes to override this decision.


I am still waiting for one dollar of repayment on the grievances sold back to the company and which represent multiple systematic and heinous violations of our contract by crew scheduling (who continue to ignore our contract daily). I am still waiting for one dollar of recompense promised to those who suffered irreparable harm to their careers from their extended furloughs and given LOS per the Carey agreement and ďGreen DecemberĒ sellback. Where is their money? I am still waiting for the new Duty Rigs that President Carey promised would be instituted this summer despite the evidence before the agreement was inked that the vacation float would not trigger the new duty rigs until the next Section VI.


In short, what have we received for the give-backs we agreed to during ďGreen DecemberĒ and which Carey unilaterally agreed to by virtue of this latest agreement? Nothing yet, as far as I can tell. Carey only agreed to receive what we already held by virtue of our contract.


What will Carey receive as a result of having sold us short again? The verdict is still out on this one. However, his propensity to work without the negotiating committee and despite the Board of Directors can only indicate what is to come in the next Section VIÖ..and it does not portend well.





Sincerely,





Ed Sicher


MIA Vice

Laker24
06-19-2018, 03:47 AM
Thatís a lot of rhetoric with little details. Sounds like it was co written by CLT. These guys have a knack for rambling on and on without delivering any concrete news.

OVBIII
06-19-2018, 03:56 AM
I am with Laker on this one, I donít see any data that supports the first paragraph. I would like to know some details. Perhaps thereís an APA meeting log, in which, to look?

mainlineAF
06-19-2018, 06:26 AM
LOL. I donít always agree with you... but you crack me up. 1st round is on me.



Wait i thought everyone always agreed with me?!?

Haha good times

TransWorld
06-19-2018, 07:09 AM
Wait...do you mean EVERY Wednesday?

Only working on Wednesdays in months that have ‘Rs’ in their name. In other words, NOT in May, June, July, nor August. Feel better?

flyinawa
06-19-2018, 09:44 AM
Only working on Wednesdays in months that have ĎRsí in their name. In other words, NOT in May, June, July, nor August. Feel better?

Please tell me youíre on the NC.

nAAtive
06-19-2018, 12:14 PM
Wait i thought everyone always agreed with me?!?

Haha good times

I donít always agree with you for sure

Rawhide16
06-20-2018, 08:18 AM
One issue that is gaining traction and needs to be discussed in our upcoming negotiations is #DOHnow! It is ridiculous that new hires don't receive:

1. Pay raises on their DOH anniversary
2. 16% defined contribution year 1
3. Paid sick leave for the first 6 months

The delayed pay raises, some of which exceed 3+ months, when combined with the lack of DC year 1 is roughly a $20k hit in year 1 alone. And the delayed pay raises are the gift that keep on giving until year 12. This is serious $$$ over the long term.

Why is AA the only major that does this? It is unsatisfactory and needs to be fixed.

#DOHnow!

PRS Guitars
06-20-2018, 08:35 AM
One issue that is gaining traction and needs to be discussed in our upcoming negotiations is #DOHnow! It is ridiculous that new hires don't receive:

1. Pay raises on their DOH anniversary
2. 16% defined contribution year 1
3. Paid sick leave for the first 6 months

The delayed pay raises, some of which exceed 3+ months, when combined with the lack of DC year 1 is roughly a $20k hit in year 1 alone. And the delayed pay raises are the gift that keep on giving until year 12. This is serious $$$ over the long term.

Why is AA the only major that does this? It is unsatisfactory and needs to be fixed.

#DOHnow!

Yes,

The obstacles you face are that this has been the way itís done for about 30 years. Most LAA guys donít even realize that this is not at all industry standard. Most pilots are above 12 years and bitter about other things. Many probably think either ďI was paid that way, why shouldnít youĒ or ďyouíll be senior some dayĒ or ďyouíll have a better career than me, so why should I give up negotiating capital for thisĒ

Your hashtag has a different meaning for most people by the way...

Iím with you though, good luck!

Al Czervik
06-20-2018, 06:13 PM
Most LAA guys donít even realize that this is not at all industry standard.

Amongst many, many other things.

OVBIII
06-21-2018, 04:19 AM
One issue that is gaining traction and needs to be discussed in our upcoming negotiations is #DOHnow! It is ridiculous that new hires don't receive:

1. Pay raises on their DOH anniversary
2. 16% defined contribution year 1
3. Paid sick leave for the first 6 months

The delayed pay raises, some of which exceed 3+ months, when combined with the lack of DC year 1 is roughly a $20k hit in year 1 alone. And the delayed pay raises are the gift that keep on giving until year 12. This is serious $$$ over the long term.

Why is AA the only major that does this? It is unsatisfactory and needs to be fixed.

#DOHnow!

Was there a (whats it called) hashtag in there?!

(I kid, I kid)

Frip
06-21-2018, 04:49 AM
One issue that is gaining traction and needs to be discussed in our upcoming negotiations is #DOHnow!


You funny funny man...

(I agree, and wish you much luck... )

Rawhide16
06-21-2018, 05:03 AM
Got it. We need a new hashtag. I can't claim credit for it. We'll think of something. This issue, however, affects a great deal of pilots and the number is growing every 2 weeks. If it isn't addressed on this go around the BOD won't be able to ignore it next time. Our voice only gets louder from here on out.

Arado 234
06-21-2018, 06:10 AM
Most LAA guys donít even realize that this is not at all industry standard.

Maybe because they see DFW as the only center in the universe?

Another scary thought.... Would those guys realize the lack of industry standard if we'd be ALPA?

OVBIII
06-21-2018, 02:24 PM
Got it. We need a new hashtag. I can't claim credit for it. We'll think of something. This issue, however, affects a great deal of pilots and the number is growing every 2 weeks. If it isn't addressed on this go around the BOD won't be able to ignore it next time. Our voice only gets louder from here on out.

You missed our kidding man. We donít speako the newage lingo. You are way more up on the times than we are. (And I dare say social media might be a good way to push the DOH issue...which I am with you on) and seeing the symbol # before words may have fried some peoples nuggets on here. :)

Regionalsuck
06-21-2018, 02:30 PM
The delayed pay raises, some of which exceed 3+ months, when combined with the lack of DC year 1 is roughly a $20k hit in year 1 alone. And the delayed pay raises are the gift that keep on giving until year 12. This is serious $$$ over the long term.

Why is AA the only major that does this? It is unsatisfactory and needs to be fixed.

#DOHnow!

5-6 months delay with the training backups that have been happening but who's counting...

Rawhide16
06-21-2018, 03:19 PM
5-6 months delay with the training backups that have been happening but who's counting...

IIRC, the pay raises happen at your originally scheduled sim completion date so subsequent training delays shouldn't matter. Are you saying that people are getting 5-6 month delays right out of indoc?

Rawhide16
06-21-2018, 03:22 PM
You missed our kidding man. We donít speako the newage lingo. You are way more up on the times than we are. (And I dare say social media might be a good way to push the DOH issue...which I am with you on) and seeing the symbol # before words may have fried some peoples nuggets on here. :)

I picked up on the kidding. Poor wording in my reply. I appreciate the words and the support!

Frip
06-21-2018, 06:29 PM
I totally agree with you and the issue.

I would say thst these people do not care one whit about DOH, but that would be inaccurates and far too generous.

DOH is ignored, despised, "adjusted" and woukd be erased if that were possible.

RyanP
06-23-2018, 09:34 AM
IIRC, the pay raises happen at your originally scheduled sim completion date so subsequent training delays shouldn't matter. Are you saying that people are getting 5-6 month delays right out of indoc?

S80 is about 5 months from beginning indoc to sim completion for some over the summer. Don't have any idea if pay starts on original projection or not.

BackintheLPA
06-23-2018, 11:30 AM
2nd year pay is based off the Projected completion of training date off the bid sheet in indoc. If you finish early/later, it doesnít matter. The date remains the same.

RyanP
06-23-2018, 12:53 PM
2nd year pay is based off the Projected completion of training date off the bid sheet in indoc. If you finish early/later, it doesn’t matter. The date remains the same.

Ok, good to know. Still an asinine contract item, but good to know.

Route66
06-23-2018, 03:58 PM
I totally agree with you and the issue.

I would say thst these people do not care one whit about DOH, but that would be inaccurates and far too generous.

DOH is ignored, despised, "adjusted" and woukd be erased if that were possible.

It looks like reality is setting in. Itís called greed.

redbaronahp
06-27-2018, 05:18 PM
Iím joining AA in Aug and keeping seeing ACD referenced in various AA forums regarding scheduling but I donít know what it is. Would someone please shed some light on the subject. Thanks.

OVBIII
06-27-2018, 05:26 PM
Iím joining AA in Aug and keeping seeing ACD referenced in various AA forums regarding scheduling but I donít know what it is. Would someone please shed some light on the subject. Thanks.

Someone way smarter than I can explain it better but...simple brain math...we will get 5:15 of pay (minimum) per day of a sequence...please note some sequences average higher than 5:15.

EMBFlyer
06-28-2018, 12:39 AM
Iím joining AA in Aug and keeping seeing ACD referenced in various AA forums regarding scheduling but I donít know what it is. Would someone please shed some light on the subject. Thanks.

Right now, we don't get paid for days we don't fly. We call those "slash" trips. For example: Day 1, fly somewhere. Day 2 sit in the hotel for 30-something hours, Day 3, fly home. Pays about 11-ish hours. (PHX or LAX to Hawaii is a perfect example).

With ACD, the above trip would pay 15:45.

However, expect the company (and the optimizer) to build trips such that they fly off as much of that rig as possible. Doug hates people sitting around getting paid to do nothing.

Mover
06-28-2018, 05:34 AM
Someone way smarter than I can explain it better but...simple brain math...we will get 5:15 of pay (minimum) per day of a sequence...please note some sequences average higher than 5:15.

No. We will get 5:15 of pay (AVERAGE) per day of a sequence.

We have average calendar day (or we will..maybe...sometime..)

A three day sequence will be a minimum of 15:45. You you could theoretically fly 7 hrs day one, 1:45 day two, and 7 hrs day three and still be within that.

OVBIII
06-28-2018, 08:03 AM
No. We will get 5:15 of pay (AVERAGE) per day of a sequence.

We have average calendar day (or we will..maybe...sometime..)

A three day sequence will be a minimum of 15:45. You you could theoretically fly 7 hrs day one, 1:45 day two, and 7 hrs day three and still be within that.

Isn't that what we are both saying? (minus the fact that the 5:15 AVG doesn't take effect until Jan1)

redbaronahp
06-28-2018, 10:16 AM
Isn't that what we are both saying? (minus the fact that the 5:15 AVG doesn't take effect until Jan1)

Will the 5:15 rig apply to reserve days, with a short call reserve guarantee of 76 hrs? It sure would be nice to only have to sit 15 days of reserve compared to my current 21 days at a regional airline. Either way, Iím happy to be starting at AAL soon.

OVBIII
06-28-2018, 10:50 AM
Will the 5:15 rig apply to reserve days, with a short call reserve guarantee of 76 hrs? It sure would be nice to only have to sit 15 days of reserve compared to my current 21 days at a regional airline. Either way, Iím happy to be starting at AAL soon.

Youíll enjoy it here. I have so far. The contract requires 18 days of RSV. So you can divide 76 (or 73 on Long Call)by 18 and get your ďdaily RSV rateĒ. Each day you fly is worth 5:10 (soon to be 5:15 per day of a sequence). Yet again, simple brain math, to break guarantee of 76 hours youíd fly about 15 days.
Iím averaging about 12-13 days of flying a month. I do not know if thatís typical or not.

And to reiterate, the 5:15 (upcoming) is an average per day of a sequence.

Mover
06-28-2018, 11:47 AM
Isn't that what we are both saying? (minus the fact that the 5:15 AVG doesn't take effect until Jan1)

No, because it's not 5:15 min per day. Min calendar day is something very different (and better). You said you will get 5:15 min per day of sequence which is inaccurate unfortunately.

And it doesn't even have to take effect JAN 1. It could be pushed indefinitely since it's cheaper for the company to just pay the fine.

Route66
06-29-2018, 05:00 AM
No, because it's not 5:15 min per day. Min calendar day is something very different (and better). You said you will get 5:15 min per day of sequence which is inaccurate unfortunately.

And it doesn't even have to take effect JAN 1. It could be pushed indefinitely since it's cheaper for the company to just pay the fine.

Money that goes to pad John Careyís travel budget.

DarinFred
06-29-2018, 10:35 AM
Who is John Carey?

Route66
06-29-2018, 10:45 AM
Who is John Carey?

Sorry. Meant to say DAN Carey. John is his brother, who is also a pilot.

PRS Guitars
06-29-2018, 02:42 PM
Youíll enjoy it here. I have so far. The contract requires 18 days of RSV. So you can divide 76 (or 73 on Long Call)by 18 and get your ďdaily RSV rateĒ. Each day you fly is worth 5:10 (soon to be 5:15 per day of a sequence). Yet again, simple brain math, to break guarantee of 76 hours youíd fly about 15 days.
Iím averaging about 12-13 days of flying a month. I do not know if thatís typical or not.

And to reiterate, the 5:15 (upcoming) is an average per day of a sequence.


Your answer is misleading. The answer is we get paid 4:03 a day for long call and 4:22 a day for short. So no, we donít get paid 5:15 a day being on reserve.

OVBIII
06-29-2018, 04:41 PM
Your answer is misleading. The answer is we get paid 4:03 a day for long call and 4:22 a day for short. So no, we donít get paid 5:15 a day being on reserve.
I can see what you are saying, I said when we fly...I could have been more clear.

FlyyGuyy
06-29-2018, 06:07 PM
Sorry. Meant to say DAN Carey. John is his brother, who is also a pilot.

His brother is Phil. Who recently retired

PRS Guitars
06-29-2018, 07:24 PM
I can see what you are saying, I said when we fly...I could have been more clear.

I should add...I believe we should get paid 5:15 per day of reserve and only sit 15 days a month like SWA pilots do.

Route66
06-30-2018, 03:10 AM
His brother is Phil. Who recently retired

You are correct. Too many Careys. Thatís who I meant.

Itís been too long, and I didnít know he retired. Oh well.

FlyyGuyy
06-30-2018, 07:06 AM
You are correct. Too many Careys. Thatís who I meant.

Itís been too long, and I didnít know he retired. Oh well.

Used to share a commute with him. Plus he's a family friend.

Route66
07-02-2018, 09:49 AM
Used to share a commute with him. Plus he's a family friend.

Which Carey? Phil was an MEC chairman at one time, if I recall THAT correctly.

FlyyGuyy
07-02-2018, 09:55 AM
Which Carey? Phil was an MEC chairman at one time, if I recall THAT correctly.

Phil. And I think that's correct.

seafeye
07-03-2018, 02:13 PM
Your answer is misleading. The answer is we get paid 4:03 a day for long call and 4:22 a day for short. So no, we donít get paid 5:15 a day being on reserve.

We donít get paid per day. Currently we get 0 per day.
But we do get 76 hours of pay per month.
If we did get 4:22/day. And we flew an 8 hour day we would break guarantee. But we donít. We can fly 4 days straight of 7 hours a day. And still not break guarantee.

This is why it is imperative that we get paid per day in the next contract.
We are leaving thousands ($) on the table each month. Every minute we fly above 4:22, is a minute we are working for free.

PRS Guitars
07-03-2018, 04:55 PM
We donít get paid per day. Currently we get 0 per day.
But we do get 76 hours of pay per month.
If we did get 4:22/day. And we flew an 8 hour day we would break guarantee. But we donít. We can fly 4 days straight of 7 hours a day. And still not break guarantee.

This is why it is imperative that we get paid per day in the next contract.
We are leaving thousands ($) on the table each month. Every minute we fly above 4:22, is a minute we are working for free.

I understand that, but read the post I was correcting. They were saying we get paid 5:15 a day essentially.

I agree with your premise, but I still think of it as 4:03 a day, because I take military leave occasionally, they reduce my pay by 4:03 a day when I do that (PBS complicates it somewhat). I look at it as a 4:03 retainer per day. Doesnít matter, I would like to see it upped to 5:15 a day, or Iíd be happy with your proposal as well.

nAAtive
07-03-2018, 05:15 PM
We donít get paid per day. Currently we get 0 per day.
But we do get 76 hours of pay per month.
If we did get 4:22/day. And we flew an 8 hour day we would break guarantee. But we donít. We can fly 4 days straight of 7 hours a day. And still not break guarantee.

This is why it is imperative that we get paid per day in the next contract.
We are leaving thousands ($) on the table each month. Every minute we fly above 4:22, is a minute we are working for free.

Does any airline get paid what they made that day on top of guarantee?

Not defending our crummy green book....

seafeye
07-04-2018, 07:29 AM
Does any airline get paid what they made that day on top of guarantee?

Not defending our crummy green book....

I know some of the regionals now get credit per day.

Bottom line is the company asks us to be on call for 18-19 days a month. In exchange for 76 hours of pay.
Anything over and above that should be paid over an above.
Doug doesnít work for free. Why should we?

TransWorld
07-04-2018, 08:36 AM
Doug doesnít work for free. Why should we?

Just for clarification. Doug does work extra hours for free. He is not paid overtime. But you knew that already and are just speaking in hyperbole. Some on here, though, may have been lead to the wrong understanding.

And yes, I know he gets a performance bonus, etc., etc.