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queue
05-27-2018, 04:59 AM
It's refreshing to see our brothers at Frontier are not settling for substandard Company and ALPA false choices.

The more people that figure out this con job, the better off we'll be.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


nuball5
05-27-2018, 05:33 AM
It's refreshing to see our brothers at Frontier are not settling for substandard Company and ALPA false choices.

The more people that figure out this con job, the better off we'll be.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Looks like they don't even have an AIP yet, so I think you're a little premature. It's easy to say you want Delta +1 when there's nothing to vote on. I hope they get 40%-50% raises to get them in the ballpark with everyone else.

queue
05-27-2018, 05:53 AM
Looks like they don't even have an AIP yet, so I think you're a little premature. It's easy to say you want Delta +1 when there's nothing to vote on. I hope they get 40%-50% raises to get them in the ballpark with everyone else.

I was just commenting on what they are saying. I hope they don't allow their AIP to be as weak as ours.

I don't think they are ok with their NC shooting for Alaska + 1.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


nuball5
05-27-2018, 06:04 AM
I was just commenting on what they are saying. I hope they don't allow their AIP to be as weak as ours.

I don't think they are ok with their NC shooting for Alaska + 1.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

I understand. You just never know if Alaska-type rates would be acceptable until the ENTIRE pilot group votes on a living & breathing T/A. A handful of APC members hiding behind a screename usually isn't indicative on how this process works in the real world.

hyperboy
05-27-2018, 05:24 PM
i understand. You just never know if alaska-type rates would be acceptable until the entire pilot group votes on a living & breathing t/a. A handful of apc members hiding behind a screename usually isn't indicative on how this process works in the real world.

post of the year!

P-3Bubba
05-29-2018, 02:23 PM
I was just commenting on what they are saying. I hope they don't allow their AIP to be as weak as ours.

I don't think they are ok with their NC shooting for Alaska + 1.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

You donít even know what the JB TA will say Q. Keep blowing harder. Frontier is the same pilot group who kicked and screamed when they almost had a deal with SWA. Maybe you were arguing their case then. ďLetís hold out fellas! Weíre going to capture the LCC market and rise to the top! Look at our share price. We own Denver.Ē

-Bubs

seekingblue
05-29-2018, 03:15 PM
I understand. You just never know if Alaska-type rates would be acceptable until the ENTIRE pilot group votes on a living & breathing T/A. A handful of APC members hiding behind a screename usually isn't indicative on how this process works in the real world.

Thank you!

Bozo the pilot
05-29-2018, 06:29 PM
I understand. You just never know if Alaska-type rates would be acceptable until the ENTIRE pilot group votes on a living & breathing T/A. A handful of APC members hiding behind a screename usually isn't indicative on how this process works in the real world.

Get ready for another tirade. How dare you cross the All powerful Q.

"He is an extra-dimensional being of unknown origin who possesses immeasurable power over normal human notions of time, space, the laws of physics, and reality itself, being capable of violating or altering them in unpredictable ways with a casual thought or hand gesture."
*Wiki*
:D

jtrain609
05-29-2018, 07:12 PM
Get ready for another tirade. How dare you cross the All powerful Q.

"He is an extra-dimensional being of unknown origin who possesses immeasurable power over normal human notions of time, space, the laws of physics, and reality itself, being capable of violating or altering them in unpredictable ways with a casual thought or hand gesture."
*Wiki*
:D

Same actor, same character, but in My Little Pony:

"Princess Celestia explains that Discord is the spirit of chaos and disharmony who once ruled over Equestria in a state of unrest and unhappiness, until she and Princess Luna used the Elements of Harmony to imprison him in stone. However, after the sisters lost their connection to the Elements, the spell was broken and Discord broke free."

I think he's more Discord than Q.

P-3Bubba
05-30-2018, 03:31 AM
Same actor, same character, but in My Little Pony:

"Princess Celestia explains that Discord is the spirit of chaos and disharmony who once ruled over Equestria in a state of unrest and unhappiness, until she and Princess Luna used the Elements of Harmony to imprison him in stone. However, after the sisters lost their connection to the Elements, the spell was broken and Discord broke free."

I think he's more Discord than Q.


Iím dying. JTrain summoning his ďBronyĒ side to deflect The Q.

-Bubs

Southerner
05-30-2018, 04:12 AM
Same actor, same character, but in My Little Pony:

"Princess Celestia explains that Discord is the spirit of chaos and disharmony who once ruled over Equestria in a state of unrest and unhappiness, until she and Princess Luna used the Elements of Harmony to imprison him in stone. However, after the sisters lost their connection to the Elements, the spell was broken and Discord broke free."

I think he's more Discord than Q.

No words...

Tom a Hawk
05-30-2018, 04:58 AM
Friendship is magic

queue
05-30-2018, 05:20 AM
You donít even know what the JB TA will say Q. Keep blowing harder. Frontier is the same pilot group who kicked and screamed when they almost had a deal with SWA. Maybe you were arguing their case then. ďLetís hold out fellas! Weíre going to capture the LCC market and rise to the top! Look at our share price. We own Denver.Ē

-Bubs

Apples and oranges. The only similarity is we all fly aircraft.

Keep on with the ULCC mindset.

By the way, does it matter if you're a LCC or ULCC or Other carrier in terms of your compensation? If so, why? Did someone convince you of the false argument that you are somehow an inferior pilot, of lower quality, and of lower rent? Why do you accept being paid less than your Airbus counterparts at DL, AA, UA?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bluedriver
05-30-2018, 05:37 AM
Apples and oranges. The only similarity is we all fly aircraft.

Keep on with the ULCC mindset.

By the way, does it matter if you're a LCC or ULCC or Other carrier in terms of your compensation? If so, why? Did someone convince you of the false argument that you are somehow an inferior pilot, of lower quality, and of lower rent? Why do you accept being paid less than your Airbus counterparts at DL, AA, UA?



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Like or dislike Q, this is true.

We are a special group who think of themselves as discount airliner pilots. And, well, we have made sure it's still true.

queue
05-30-2018, 05:51 AM
Like or dislike Q, this is true.

We are a special group who think of themselves as discount airliner pilots. And, well, we have made sure it's still true.

All we really need is a change of defeatist mindset. That doesn't cost anything, just education.

Maybe B6ALPA should put out stickers for us to put on our bags that says "WE ARE NOT INFERIOR LOW RENT PILOTS (except for Hyperboy)".

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

V1 McFlyerson
05-30-2018, 05:57 AM
I was just commenting on what they are saying. I hope they don't allow their AIP to be as weak as ours.

I don't think they are ok with their NC shooting for Alaska + 1.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.



It's going to be the Frontier pilot group that doesn't allow it, one way or the other. Are you familiar with what's brewing at Frontier on the contract-front?

NC Ask / Agreed to:

- 5 Year Contract (I keep hearing this, but I can't find it anywhere)

- Left Seat rates on average 8% less than B6 AIP, 7% lower avg after Year 1.
- Right Seat rates on average 5% less than B6 AIP, 4% lower avg after Year 1.

- $2.00 Per Diem lol! The Frontier NC agreed to $2 per diem... Hilarious/Sad. Frontier is the "gas station hot dog" - airline.

Do you guys know anything about your proposed LTD?

F9 Agreed to LTD
Max Benefit: 8k
Max Benefit based on Min Guarantee or Earnings: Min Guarantee
Company Paid: Yes
Own Occupation: No
Buy Up Available: No
Tax-Free Benefit Payments? No

The only impressive thing, other than how bad it is, about this LTD is the sales brochure it came with via email. The 8k, industry sucking max, will not allow any captain to actually get 60%, and it was structured in a way to NOT be paid out tax-free. An 8 year F9 Ca on the "ask" rates will bring home 45% of their Min Guarantee take-home pay if they go on this LTD. Plan your life accordingly.

I guess our NC agrees to this stuff in light of what the company is offering? Rosie O'Biffle offers stuff like 4 hours per training day and you're responsible to pick up to get 70 hours, which is the drop max.
And the company offers hourly rates 25% below your AIP.

In the mean time, a current maxed out F9 captain makes 55% less than your AIP DOS rate. BUT, and it's a BIIIIIG BUT! They have the option to work over their vacation and bring in some serious coinage. (The work rules here are phenomenal, like the best you've ever seen. Like it's unbelievable. They talk about it all over the world.)

jtrain609
05-30-2018, 06:06 AM
Iím dying. JTrain summoning his ďBronyĒ side to deflect The Q.

-Bubs

Naw dude, I've got a 5 year old daughter. This crap is all I watch on days off. She loves Rainbow Dash, but I'm partial to Maude.

hilltopflyer
05-30-2018, 06:23 AM
It's going to be the Frontier pilot group that doesn't allow it, one way or the other. Are you familiar with what's brewing at Frontier on the contract-front?

NC Ask / Agreed to:

- 5 Year Contract (I keep hearing this, but I can't find it anywhere)

- Left Seat rates on average 8% less than B6 AIP, 7% lower avg after Year 1.
- Right Seat rates on average 5% less than B6 AIP, 4% lower avg after Year 1.

- $2.00 Per Diem lol! The Frontier NC agreed to $2 per diem... Hilarious/Sad. Frontier is the "gas station hot dog" - airline.

Do you guys know anything about your proposed LTD?

F9 Agreed to LTD
Max Benefit: 8k
Max Benefit based on Min Guarantee or Earnings: Min Guarantee
Company Paid: Yes
Own Occupation: No
Buy Up Available: No
Tax-Free Benefit Payments? No

The only impressive thing, other than how bad it is, about this LTD is the sales brochure it came with via email. The 8k, industry sucking max, will not allow any captain to actually get 60%, and it was structured in a way to NOT be paid out tax-free. An 8 year F9 Ca on the "ask" rates will bring home 45% of their Min Guarantee take-home pay if they go on this LTD. Plan your life accordingly.

I guess our NC agrees to this stuff in light of what the company is offering? Rosie O'Biffle offers stuff like 4 hours per training day and you're responsible to pick up to get 70 hours, which is the drop max.
And the company offers hourly rates 25% below your AIP.

In the mean time, a current maxed out F9 captain makes 55% less than your AIP DOS rate. BUT, and it's a BIIIIIG BUT! They have the option to work over their vacation and bring in some serious coinage. (The work rules here are phenomenal, like the best you've ever seen. Like it's unbelievable. They talk about it all over the world.)

That's frontier LTD correct not our new proposed one? If so that is a huuuuuuuge issue

V1 McFlyerson
05-30-2018, 06:37 AM
That's frontier LTD correct not our new proposed one? If so that is a huuuuuuuge issue

Frontier. All that is Frontier.

PasserOGas
05-30-2018, 06:46 AM
It's going to be the Frontier pilot group that doesn't allow it, one way or the other. Are you familiar with what's brewing at Frontier on the contract-front?

NC Ask / Agreed to:

- 5 Year Contract (I keep hearing this, but I can't find it anywhere)

- Left Seat rates on average 8% less than B6 AIP, 7% lower avg after Year 1.
- Right Seat rates on average 5% less than B6 AIP, 4% lower avg after Year 1.

- $2.00 Per Diem lol! The Frontier NC agreed to $2 per diem... Hilarious/Sad. Frontier is the "gas station hot dog" - airline.

Do you guys know anything about your proposed LTD?

F9 Agreed to LTD
Max Benefit: 8k
Max Benefit based on Min Guarantee or Earnings: Min Guarantee
Company Paid: Yes
Own Occupation: No
Buy Up Available: No
Tax-Free Benefit Payments? No

The only impressive thing, other than how bad it is, about this LTD is the sales brochure it came with via email. The 8k, industry sucking max, will not allow any captain to actually get 60%, and it was structured in a way to NOT be paid out tax-free. An 8 year F9 Ca on the "ask" rates will bring home 45% of their Min Guarantee take-home pay if they go on this LTD. Plan your life accordingly.

I guess our NC agrees to this stuff in light of what the company is offering? Rosie O'Biffle offers stuff like 4 hours per training day and you're responsible to pick up to get 70 hours, which is the drop max.
And the company offers hourly rates 25% below your AIP.

In the mean time, a current maxed out F9 captain makes 55% less than your AIP DOS rate. BUT, and it's a BIIIIIG BUT! They have the option to work over their vacation and bring in some serious coinage. (The work rules here are phenomenal, like the best you've ever seen. Like it's unbelievable. They talk about it all over the world.)

Why wouldnt the MEC be fired for allowing this? I mean, I want to fire OURS and they aren't that bad.

V1 McFlyerson
05-30-2018, 07:09 AM
The F9 pilot group wouldn't want to risk their 100% compliant and malleable reputation to the company or NMB. Hell, we've given the company LOAs and grievance relief through this process.

Supposedly we'll get released and then they'll get us a market rate contract that exceeds our pathetic ask. That's the latest rumor and nothing has been put out. What isn't a rumor is that every single thing we've seen agreed to by our NC is severely lacking. Into the Ultralight Pattern 2017.

OpenClimb
05-30-2018, 08:45 AM
The F9 pilot group wouldn't want to risk their 100% compliant and malleable reputation to the company or NMB. Hell, we've given the company LOAs and grievance relief through this process.

Supposedly we'll get released and then they'll get us a market rate contract that exceeds our pathetic ask. That's the latest rumor and nothing has been put out. What isn't a rumor is that every single thing we've seen agreed to by our NC is severely lacking. Into the Ultralight Pattern 2017.

We will have to wait to be released (months, years, decades?!?) before we ever have a TA to vote on. Weíll then need to vote the TA down, fire the entire negotiating committee, regroup and reinitiate negotiations and THEN, after an additional couple of years, MAYBE have a decent TA to vote on.

I seriously have my doubts that ALPA is the union to get this done. They seem to be embracing the concept that once a Company declares itself an ULCC carrier, the pilots are only deserving of second tier wages and benefits. ALPA wonít aggressively confront the NMB because doing so would compromise their ability to get their real airline (UAL) a good deal via the NMB. Classic conflict of interest, but itís allowed/ignored in the world of union representation.

PasserOGas
05-30-2018, 01:01 PM
We will have to wait to be released (months, years, decades?!?) before we ever have a TA to vote on. Weíll then need to vote the TA down, fire the entire negotiating committee, regroup and reinitiate negotiations and THEN, after an additional couple of years, MAYBE have a decent TA to vote on.

I seriously have my doubts that ALPA is the union to get this done. They seem to be embracing the concept that once a Company declares itself an ULCC carrier, the pilots are only deserving of second tier wages and benefits. ALPA wonít aggressively confront the NMB because doing so would compromise their ability to get their real airline (UAL) a good deal via the NMB. Classic conflict of interest, but itís allowed/ignored in the world of union representation.

To ALPA national, we are a drain on resources while in negotiations. It is in their best interest to get us an OK deal, but not to fight long and hard for any of the "tier 2" pilot groups. Thus, they press for lowered expectations and whisper, "This is the best you will get...", into the ear of the NC.

Then they get the dues and can save the fight for the "tier 1" carriers.

CaptCoolHand
05-31-2018, 06:40 AM
To ALPA National weíve drained none of their resources. We are fully within our own dues expenditures. This whole statement is false at best and purely misleading.

To ALPA national, we are a drain on resources while in negotiations. It is in their best interest to get us an OK deal, but not to fight long and hard for any of the "tier 2" pilot groups. Thus, they press for lowered expectations and whisper, "This is the best you will get...", into the ear of the NC.

Then they get the dues and can save the fight for the "tier 1" carriers.

hyperboy
05-31-2018, 07:37 AM
To ALPA national, we are a drain on resources while in negotiations. It is in their best interest to get us an OK deal, but not to fight long and hard for any of the "tier 2" pilot groups. Thus, they press for lowered expectations and whisper, "This is the best you will get...", into the ear of the NC.

Then they get the dues and can save the fight for the "tier 1" carriers.


MCF............

Bozo the pilot
05-31-2018, 09:46 AM
To ALPA national, we are a drain on resources while in negotiations. It is in their best interest to get us an OK deal, but not to fight long and hard for any of the "tier 2" pilot groups. Thus, they press for lowered expectations and whisper, "This is the best you will get...", into the ear of the NC.

Then they get the dues and can save the fight for the "tier 1" carriers.

How heavy is that chip Pog? ;)

PasserOGas
05-31-2018, 06:03 PM
How heavy is that chip Pog? ;)

I don't know. How much does an entire career of substandard wages weigh?

queue
05-31-2018, 06:12 PM
How heavy is that chip Pog? ;)


Don't respect yourself too much, you might hurt yourself.



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3IjRgoGWUBo/S_l7YonICfI/AAAAAAAAAi8/AwtIzYuulk8/s1600/ambition-demotivator.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

dracir1
06-01-2018, 12:11 PM
The F9 pilot group wouldn't want to risk their 100% compliant and malleable reputation to the company or NMB. Hell, we've given the company LOAs and grievance relief through this process.

Supposedly we'll get released and then they'll get us a market rate contract that exceeds our pathetic ask. That's the latest rumor and nothing has been put out. What isn't a rumor is that every single thing we've seen agreed to by our NC is severely lacking. Into the Ultralight Pattern 2017.

F9 guy here too.

I'm sure you've noticed on our thread that there are many over here that have continually stated our initial ask was way too low in many different areas. The JB AIP, despite all the issues that they have with it, is proof of what many of us have been stating and it seems the rest of our pilot group are realizing.

We've made our bed essentially but then again, we were always headed for one possible solution. Self help. Despite how crappy our initial ask is, F9 mgt/ownership still hasn't even come close in a counter. My worst fear is they come to the table tomorrow and give us everything we've asked for (foircing us to vote it down, elect a new NC and start the process all over).

Fortunately, that won't happen so our next move is to strike AND convince F9ALPA to increase the ask to something much more reasonable. I'm not sure which is more likely...

I know it's no consolation, but as dissapointed as some of the JB pilot group have been with your AIP (and I agree, you should be), they have it far better than some...remember that.

queue
06-01-2018, 02:32 PM
F9 guy here too.

I'm sure you've noticed on our thread that there are many over here that have continually stated our initial ask was way too low in many different areas. The JB AIP, despite all the issues that they have with it, is proof of what many of us have been stating and it seems the rest of our pilot group are realizing.

We've made our bed essentially but then again, we were always headed for one possible solution. Self help. Despite how crappy our initial ask is, F9 mgt/ownership still hasn't even come close in a counter. My worst fear is they come to the table tomorrow and give us everything we've asked for (foircing us to vote it down, elect a new NC and start the process all over).

Fortunately, that won't happen so our next move is to strike AND convince F9ALPA to increase the ask to something much more reasonable. I'm not sure which is more likely...

I know it's no consolation, but as dissapointed as some of the JB pilot group have been with your AIP (and I agree, you should be), they have it far better than some...remember that.

Too bad B6 pilots see themselves as inferior to DL, UA, AA, WN. Your guys are starting to see the light by comparing to our AIP but those relativistic comparisons are exactly how management controls/lowers our expectations, starting with ALPA.

Time for people to be red-pilled.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Bozo the pilot
06-01-2018, 03:28 PM
I don't know. How much does an entire career of substandard wages weigh?

Probably the same:D

Bozo the pilot
06-01-2018, 03:29 PM
Don't respect yourself too much, you might hurt yourself.



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3IjRgoGWUBo/S_l7YonICfI/AAAAAAAAAi8/AwtIzYuulk8/s1600/ambition-demotivator.jpg



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
I figured you for leaner Q. Hit the weights dog:)

P-3Bubba
06-03-2018, 06:37 AM
Naw dude, I've got a 5 year old daughter. This crap is all I watch on days off. She loves Rainbow Dash, but I'm partial to Maude.

I hear you. Iíve been through it too. (2 daughters). But the opportunity to make a Brony joke, I couldnít pass.

-Bubs

jtrain609
06-03-2018, 06:39 AM
i hear you. Iíve been through it too. (2 daughters). But the opportunity to make a brony joke, i couldnít pass.

-bubs

+100000000

P-3Bubba
06-03-2018, 06:43 AM
RULES FELLAS! RULES!!!!

Thatís what his CBA is mainly about.

The language that protects a reserve from being called out on a multi-day trip to return at 0íDark 30 and get assigned to another RAP 10 hours later.

Rules that spell out how if you are delayed into a new calendar day (day off) by letís say 6 hours and the suns coming up then you should be paid X hours.

RULES RULES RULES. Everyday that goes by with no rules the company wins and we work for free. Quantify that in lost wages and compare it to our peer set. Start the clock with a contract. Letís get moving forward.

-Bubs

PasserOGas
06-03-2018, 07:42 AM
RULES FELLAS! RULES!!!!

Thatís what his CBA is mainly about.

The language that protects a reserve from being called out on a multi-day trip to return at 0íDark 30 and get assigned to another RAP 10 hours later.

Rules that spell out how if you are delayed into a new calendar day (day off) by letís say 6 hours and the suns coming up then you should be paid X hours.

RULES RULES RULES. Everyday that goes by with no rules the company wins and we work for free. Quantify that in lost wages and compare it to our peer set. Start the clock with a contract. Letís get moving forward.

-Bubs

$ $ $. Industry standard or NO.

P-3Bubba
06-03-2018, 08:39 AM
Then youíre a yes vote Passer. The fact that we have (AIP) negotiated an Ave Daily Guarantee (ADG) thatís 5hours more a day for ANYONE who flew a 10 hour 3 day in the last 17 years. Thatís a lot of guys making a lot more $$.

Alaska doesnít have an ADG.

Vote YES

-Bubs

Rabid Seagull
06-03-2018, 08:50 AM
Then youíre a yes vote Passer. The fact that we have (AIP) negotiated an Ave Daily Guarantee (ADG) thatís 5hours more a day for ANYONE who flew a 10 hour 3 day in the last 17 years. Thatís a lot of guys making a lot more $$.

Alaska doesnít have an ADG.

Vote YES

-Bubs

Waiting for the details. Waiting for the carve-out in your example, welcome back 13:30😞 but i appreciate your positive attitude.

hilltopflyer
06-03-2018, 09:06 AM
Average daily guarantee is bullcrap. It should be a daily guarantee.

queue
06-03-2018, 01:50 PM
Average daily guarantee is bullcrap. It should be a daily guarantee.

"Average daily pay" sounds like a legalistic loaded term that will not be explicitly defined and/or be something less than 5 hr/day.

RULES & PAY boys... RULES & PAY. Or NO.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

rvr1800
06-03-2018, 04:24 PM
Average daily guarantee is bullcrap. It should be a daily guarantee.

Can you point to anyone who has that?

Baba Yaga
06-03-2018, 04:46 PM
Then youíre a yes vote Passer. The fact that we have (AIP) negotiated an Ave Daily Guarantee (ADG) thatís 5hours more a day for ANYONE who flew a 10 hour 3 day in the last 17 years. Thatís a lot of guys making a lot more $$.

Alaska doesnít have an ADG.

Vote YES

-Bubs
Now that it will cost the company money you will never see those 10 hour 3 days.

jtrain609
06-03-2018, 04:52 PM
Can you point to anyone who has that?

ExpressJet, for one.

But I disagree that ADTG is crap. It's just another rig that can work for you, depending on what you feed into the pairing optimizer.

hilltopflyer
06-03-2018, 04:53 PM
ExpressJet, for one.

But I disagree that ADTG is crap. It's just another rig that can work for you, depending on what you feed into the pairing optimizer.


It's not terrible (better than now) but isn't where I would like it.

rvr1800
06-03-2018, 05:24 PM
ExpressJet, for one.

But I disagree that ADTG is crap. It's just another rig that can work for you, depending on what you feed into the pairing optimizer.

Couldnít find them in the contract comparison guide.

jtrain609
06-03-2018, 05:27 PM
Couldnít find them in the contract comparison guide.

That's because they're a regional.

Though I think it was a 4 hour min day? It's been a while since I worked there.

jtrain609
06-03-2018, 05:31 PM
It's not terrible (better than now) but isn't where I would like it.

You've gotta be careful for what you wish for with this stuff.

Guys want to get paid for the 30 hour overnight, so you get a min day. Yay! We're getting paid for sitting around!

Except now the pairing optimizer gets rid of 30 hour overnights, and instead tags a turn on to the back of what would be an otherwise commutable trip to make sure you work more.

Rigs and min days are always double edged swords. You might get paid more, but productivity sits and extra turns become the norm.

Having overlapping rigs is likely ideal.

Southerner
06-03-2018, 05:42 PM
That's because they're a regional.

Though I think it was a 4 hour min day? It's been a while since I worked there.

I think it's 5. I know this because I was surprised when I got here and ours wasn't 5.

The contract states 3:45 per calendar day, but the rigs work out to 5 hrs per day if you're on a long overnight. So you'd get 3:45 if you went past midnight or 01:00 (whatever time the trigger was), but if you were on a 30 hour overnight it was 5 hours.

mking84
06-03-2018, 05:43 PM
That's because they're a regional.

Though I think it was a 4 hour min day? It's been a while since I worked there.

ERJ: Min day 2.0 hours

Can we please not drag a regional contract into ours?

Southerner
06-03-2018, 05:48 PM
ERJ: Min day 2.0 hours

Can we please not drag a regional contract into ours?

It really doesn't matter if it's a regional or not. If the contract provision is a good one, we should strive to have it.

jtrain609
06-03-2018, 05:50 PM
ERJ: Min day 2.0 hours

Can we please not drag a regional contract into ours?

That was only on trips less than 4 days.

Bozo the pilot
06-03-2018, 06:06 PM
You've gotta be careful for what you wish for with this stuff.

Guys want to get paid for the 30 hour overnight, so you get a min day. Yay! We're getting paid for sitting around!

Except now the pairing optimizer gets rid of 30 hour overnights, and instead tags a turn on to the back of what would be an otherwise commutable trip to make sure you work more.

Rigs and min days are always double edged swords. You might get paid more, but productivity sits and extra turns become the norm.

Having overlapping rigs is likely ideal.
^^^this^^^ Great post. Gimme the easy 3 day 15 hr trips.

hilltopflyer
06-04-2018, 12:32 AM
You've gotta be careful for what you wish for with this stuff.

Guys want to get paid for the 30 hour overnight, so you get a min day. Yay! We're getting paid for sitting around!

Except now the pairing optimizer gets rid of 30 hour overnights, and instead tags a turn on to the back of what would be an otherwise commutable trip to make sure you work more.

Rigs and min days are always double edged swords. You might get paid more, but productivity sits and extra turns become the norm.

Having overlapping rigs is likely ideal.

Legit point. But I get those all the time anyways on my 30 hour sit trips. The last day I start at 5 am and go till 2 getting 6:30-7:30 block. Would be hard to pack much more into that.

Bluedriver
06-04-2018, 05:58 AM
If the 10 hour 3-days now pay 15, I expect most will be built into longer 4-5 day trips.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 08:45 AM
If the 10 hour 3-days now pay 15, I expect most will be built into longer 4-5 day trips.

The whole dynamic is going to shift after this goes through... which ever version finally makes it.

People are going to chase money, seats, bases. I'd imagine it's going to take 8months to a year before we see "normal" again.

I just expect lots of motion.

Bluedriver
06-04-2018, 10:53 AM
The whole dynamic is going to shift after this goes through... which ever version finally makes it.

People are going to chase money, seats, bases. I'd imagine it's going to take 8months to a year before we see "normal" again.

I just expect lots of motion.

Yep... I was just commenting on how JetBlue is going to mitigate the soft time for the 10-hour 3 days.

hyperboy
06-04-2018, 10:55 AM
If the 10 hour 3-days now pay 15, I expect most will be built into longer 4-5 day trips.

How could you suspect ?......Oh along with all of your FACTS? Do you have a copy for all of us to read......Your pathetic.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 10:59 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/0d/d6/f3/0dd6f3bd0209f993f5fdb51c4e8744f1.jpg

Bluedriver
06-04-2018, 11:10 AM
How could you suspect ?......Oh along with all of your FACTS? Do you have a copy for all of us to read......Your pathetic.

You could at the very least spell "you're" correctly.

Man you're one dorked up dude.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 11:15 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/b3/19/20b319ccb2cdb1bfac3d98ff70a5ea88.jpg

Bluedriver
06-04-2018, 11:22 AM
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/b3/19/20b319ccb2cdb1bfac3d98ff70a5ea88.jpg

I do love Frozen. Yep, I'm a dad.

rvr1800
06-04-2018, 12:06 PM
That's because they're a regional.

Though I think it was a 4 hour min day? It's been a while since I worked there.

Pretty sure it was 3.75 credit for a calendar sit on a trip.

My point was that no major has a daily credit min rig. So it would be very difficult for the negotiating committee to make the case for one. We kept the min duty credit rig while also gaining an average daily guarantee.

P-3Bubba
06-04-2018, 03:18 PM
Some things came out of the last P2P call that point the finger towards why the AIP came about at this point and what happens if we reject the TA and go back into mediation.

Both scenarios equal about one more year before weíre voting again. Thatís how the ďprocessĒ works. If weíre going to sit back down with a company, that is not going to give too much more in the compensation department, how do we win with waiting another year? Thatís 2018 & 2019 with 0% pay increase and missing out on 16% 401k match. Thereís not going to be enough sweetness in the renegotiated TA to make up for that lost compensation. Also, you push the clock on going back to the table to renegotiate our FIRST CBA. We lose again. The Legacies will renegotiate their own leading deals and weíll get to sulk in our even larger compensation gap.

We need this deal. Itís a win for everyone. Start the clock. Vote Yes.

-Bubs

queue
06-04-2018, 04:13 PM
Some things came out of the last P2P call that point the finger towards why the AIP came about at this point and what happens if we reject the TA and go back into mediation.

Both scenarios equal about one more year before we’re voting again. That’s how the “process” works. If we’re going to sit back down with a company, that is not going to give too much more in the compensation department, how do we win with waiting another year? That’s 2018 & 2019 with 0% pay increase and missing out on 16% 401k match. There’s not going to be enough sweetness in the renegotiated TA to make up for that lost compensation. Also, you push the clock on going back to the table to renegotiate our FIRST CBA. We lose again. The Legacies will renegotiate their own leading deals and we’ll get to sulk in our even larger compensation gap.

We need this deal. It’s a win for everyone. Start the clock. Vote Yes.

-Bubs


There are many false choices and assumptions.


Who can blindly accept anything B6ALPA says? They have said many things regarding timeline through P2P and directly (person to person) but not a single one has come true. Why should we believe it will be another year? BJ wants something *now*. That's the only reason they allowed the AIP to exist. You want to retreat now for pennies? Your pay will be in last place in a matter of a year or two since it's barely Alaska+. We can do much better than the AIP and the timeline is in our favor. We now know that BJ is sensitive to being critiqued by Wall Street.


Don't be defeated.

Vote NO.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 04:37 PM
There are many false choices and assumptions.


Who can blindly accept anything B6ALPA says? They have said many things regarding timeline through P2P and directly (person to person) but not a single one has come true. Why should we believe it will be another year? BJ wants something *now*. That's the only reason they allowed the AIP to exist. You want to retreat now for pennies? Your pay will be in last place in a matter of a year or two since it's barely Alaska+. We can do much better than the AIP and the timeline is in our favor. We now know that BJ is sensitive to being critiqued by Wall Street.


Don't be defeated.

Vote NO.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Indulge me on when B6ALPA or P2P has ever set a time line ever, and then it was false.

I'll pull my calendar out and we can compare notes.

I'm excited to review your timeline. :cool:

P-3Bubba
06-04-2018, 04:45 PM
No, the call to arms was answered and the company caved in getting us a deal. If you look at the progress in January and February the company wasnít going to bring a deal. Iíd say November or December 2018 was a best case scenario. So, now weíre here and the language of the TA is going to prove this is a good deal that places benefit to ALL pilots and especially the middle class of jetblue pilots.

Q is railing on about getting a deal that will never satisfy even himself. Delta +50? Thatís prob not going to be good enough, we should hold out for better. Theyíre against the ropes now fellas!

No- We continue to stagnate as a group without a CBA. We ALL agree on that. If this AIP (soon to be TA) was a big steamer then weíd have a different discussion but just with the AIP Bullets we know that this dog can hunt. Waiting for Wayne Brady to pull up Door #3 is a bad plan. Take the cash and get in line for The Price Is Right. Itís the next studio over in Burbank and no goofy costume required.

Folks, The Price Is Right is THE CBA. We need to start living with rules and getting ready to take another step in the right direction as the legacies renegotiate CBAís and we have the foundation to go forward.

-Bubs

queue
06-04-2018, 04:47 PM
Indulge me on when B6ALPA or P2P has ever set a time line ever, and then it was false.

I'll pull my calendar out and we can compare notes.

I'm excited to review your timeline. :cool:


B6ALPA doesn't put things on paper or in emails precisely so people like you can make the argument you will predictably make.


However, I can tell you that talking to P2P people, I've been personally told timelines like Spring of 2017, end of 2017, Spring of 2018 to complete all negotiating items.


My point is that no one knows the timeline, including all the people saying we ought to vote yes because it could take another year to re-negotiate.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-04-2018, 04:51 PM
No, the call to arms was answered and the company caved in getting us a deal.


"Caved in" bwhahahahahhaaaaaa.... seriously that made me laugh.


You mean "rented us cheap". They're barely giving you back what they took away with profit sharing, Trump tax cuts, cost of living increases, inflation, etc. Doesn't change that we will be last again in no time.



Carry on defeatists...


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 04:53 PM
B6ALPA doesn't put things on paper or in emails precisely so people like you can make the argument you will predictably make.


However, I can tell you that talking to P2P people, I've been personally told timelines like Spring of 2017, end of 2017, Spring of 2018 to complete all negotiating items.


My point is that no one knows the timeline, including all the people saying we ought to vote yes because it could take another year to re-negotiate.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.


BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA>>>>>>> BLA....

can you find one person on here that says to vote yes? show me one.

I haven't seen one yet.

Carry on irrational overly emotional no voter.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 04:57 PM
I do love Frozen. Yep, I'm a dad.

yea, me too... I actually heard the movie 3 or 4 times before I saw it... had a very different movie in my head when i finally saw it! :eek:

queue
06-04-2018, 05:01 PM
BLA BLA BLA BLA BLA>>>>>>> BLA....

can you find one person on here that says to vote yes? show me one.

I haven't seen one yet.

Carry on irrational overly emotional no voter.


Continue calling me names... PLEASE. In the mean time, the AIP bullet points are out. They are printed from B6 ALPA. People are not that dumb and they're seeing what's right in their face.

I can't wait until the language comes out to demonstrate to all the defeatists and apologists that this first round of negotiations is substandard and not commensurate a professional pilot.

I just hope that B6ALPA provides a clear, easy to understand flowchart that demonstrates the RLA to show that we all have a choice to deny any substandard contract. It's funny they continue to leave out such crucial information yet accept this dog-poop AIP 12-0.

The time is coming when pilots will wake up and see they are a market force, they are in control, and that we don't have to accept inferior negotiations.


The Railway Labor Act Simplified (http://pennfedbmwe.org/Docs/reference/RLA_Simplified.html)


Contracts remain in force until changed. Either party seeking to amend existing CBAís must provide 30-day written notice as to desired changes. (Section 6 RLA). There is no time limit by which contracts must be negotiated to avoid a work stoppage. Under Section 6 of the act either side may propose changes to an existing collective bargaining agreement, but agreements (for purposes of stability and labor peace) generally contain agreed upon moratorium clauses that provide no change may be demanded on specified subjects for a prescribed period of time.

Once Section 6 notices proposing changes to an existing agreement have been served, the parties must maintain the status quo (no strikes or lockouts or promulgation of changes) until all procedures of the RLA have been fully exhausted.
For major disputes over wages, benefits and working conditions, the RLA provides for a three-member National Mediation Board, appointed by the president and confirmed by the Senate, with the power to mediate any dispute between carriers and their employees at the request of either party or upon the board's own motion.
There is no time limit on the mediation procedure. The NMB controls the schedule of talks and only the NMB may release the parties from mediation.
If the NMB is unable to bring about an amicable settlement of the controversy through mediation, the board is required to use its influence to induce the parties voluntarily to submit to binding arbitration. The law is specific in that arbitration is voluntary and not compulsory.
If both sides voluntarily agree to binding arbitration, an Arbitration Board of up to six members is to be established. Carriers and labor each select an equal number of arbitrators, who then select the additional member or members.
Presidential Emergency Board

If either labor or management decline voluntary arbitration, and if in the opinion of the NMB the continuance of the controversy threatens substantially to interrupt interstate commerce in any section of the nation, the NMB is required to notify the President of the United States, who may, at his discretion, create a fact-finding Presidential Emergency Board.
The parties must maintain the status quo (no strikes or lockouts) for 30 days. If the president chooses not to appoint an emergency board, strikes or lockouts may occur after the 30-day cooling-off period.
Emergency boards are comprised of neutral members whose job is to make an investigation and submit to the president, within 30 days of its creation, a fact-finding report with non-binding recommendations for procedures or terms on which a dispute might be settled. During this period, the parties must maintain the status quo (a second 30-day cooling-off period).
Upon submission of the PEB report, the parties are required to maintain the status quo for an additional, or third 30-day cooling-off period (they may mutually agree to extend the period of status quo). The non-binding recommendations of the PEB are expected to carry the weight of public opinion and induce a voluntary agreement among the parties.
At this point, the RLA has run its course. If no agreement has been reached, either side becomes free to act in its own economic interests -- a work stoppage (or strike) by labor, a lockout by management, or unilateral implementation of management proposals (that generally would force a work stoppage).
However, Congress frequently imposes its own settlement. Such congressional action is not part of the RLA. The constitutional authority for Congress to impose its own settlements is found in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution's commerce clause.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-04-2018, 05:33 PM
I didnít call you any names this time. You Failed to answer the question.

Long response. Little substance.
Are you sure youíre not management?
Definitely copy and paste some
More stuff. We are all reading on the edge of our seats.
Continue calling me names... PLEASE. In the mean time, the AIP bullet points are out. They are printed from B6 ALPA. People are not that dumb and they're seeing what's right in their face.

I can't wait until the language comes out to demonstrate to all the defeatists and apologists that this first round of negotiations is substandard and not commensurate a professional pilot.

I just hope that B6ALPA provides a clear, easy to understand flowchart that demonstrates the RLA to show that we all have a choice to deny any substandard contract. It's funny they continue to leave out such crucial information yet accept this dog-poop AIP 12-0.

The time is coming when pilots will wake up and see they are a market force, they are in control, and that we don't have to accept inferior negotiations.
This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

rvr1800
06-04-2018, 06:37 PM
If any P2P made any comments about any timeline thatís their personal opinion and should have been made clear to anyone they spoke to. P2P guys have been specifically told many times to not offer any personal opinions on anything and that includes timelines.

Who has time to read these novels by this queue guy? Not me.

queue
06-04-2018, 07:09 PM
I didnít call you any names this time. You Failed to answer the question.

Long response. Little substance.
Are you sure youíre not management?
Definitely copy and paste some
More stuff. We are all reading on the edge of our seats.


Quite sure I'm not. However, based on your support to demand less from negotiations, are you sure *you're* not management? I fail to see how your settling for less will be better for this group. How many times did it take to get ALPA at BJ? Some people learn only by making mistakes.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-04-2018, 07:15 PM
If any P2P made any comments about any timeline thatís their personal opinion and should have been made clear to anyone they spoke to. P2P guys have been specifically told many times to not offer any personal opinions on anything and that includes timelines.

Who has time to read these novels by this queue guy? Not me.


Yes, I know it's personal opinion. And that was my original point about people saying that going back to negotiation would take another year. No one really knows but we do know the AIP bulletpoints are substandard and an inferior choice.



So, why not just push to strike rather than accept what we already know? I've year to hear a single intelligent response.


Why not maximize our bargaining potential rather than settle for an inferior initial offering? Read the RLA and look at what is possible.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Southerner
06-04-2018, 07:51 PM
Yes, I know it's personal opinion. And that was my original point about people saying that going back to negotiation would take another year. No one really knows but we do know the AIP bulletpoints are substandard and an inferior choice.



So, why not just push to strike rather than accept what we already know? I've year to hear a single intelligent response.


Why not maximize our bargaining potential rather than settle for an inferior initial offering? Read the RLA and look at what is possible.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Do you honestly think that ALPA National doesn't know how best to navigate the RLA? Take a step back, and really look at what you're saying. You are suggesting that you, an individual pilot at a small company, knows better than ALPA National (and their legal team) about how to navigate the legal waters surrounding the Railway Labor Act.

I'm sorry, but you're in waaaay over your head. We all pay dues so that we can get the best respresentation for our collective money. Good grief.

As far as this TA goes, get the language and make a decision then.

queue
06-04-2018, 08:29 PM
You are suggesting that you, an individual pilot at a small company, knows better than ALPA National (and their legal team) about how to navigate the legal waters surrounding the Railway Labor Act.

What I am saying is that ALPA does not have to agree to anything and nor do we. Don't assume I'm 'just a pilot' either. It's always easier for them not to try anything and just stick with the status quo - ALPA has a long traditional of barely a trickle of results at incredible membership costs. Don't assume these people are any more qualified or more intelligent than you are. You can read just as well as they can and they do not have a monopoly on thinking. If BJ or B6ALPA give us some false choice that "this is the best we can do" or "we'll be stuck in negotiations for years", we all know better. Every step of the RLA gives the opportunity for voluntary surrender. If we want to maximize our Pay & Rules, we must not accept sub-optimal negotiation results. Too many people here are waiting for miracles in the legalese that will not fix the problems of the AIP rates. The union is only as strong as its members.

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

todd1200
06-04-2018, 09:23 PM
Wow, this feels like the Louis CK skit about the guy yelling in traffic to ďJust go!Ē (just replace ďgoĒ with ďstrikeĒ). So...

Queue, give me back my jacket! I said you could borrow it, not have it, youíre stretching it out!

https://youtu.be/7zRp9VTAU48

PasserOGas
06-05-2018, 03:51 AM
Do you honestly think that ALPA National doesn't know how best to navigate the RLA? Take a step back, and really look at what you're saying. You are suggesting that you, an individual pilot at a small company, knows better than ALPA National (and their legal team) about how to navigate the legal waters surrounding the Railway Labor Act.

I'm sorry, but you're in waaaay over your head. We all pay dues so that we can get the best respresentation for our collective money. Good grief.

As far as this TA goes, get the language and make a decision then.


I think pilot groups have sent back substandard TAs many times in the past when ALPA said "This is the best we can do."

Those groups almost always see improvements.

ALPA national wants to pull its resources. "Tier 2" good enough for ALPA national is not good enough for me.

CaptCoolHand
06-05-2018, 05:41 AM
For such a smart fella you still fail to answer any questions. Can we get some answers Colonel?

Pretty sure Iíve supported nothing other than reading the coming document in its entirety before jumping to an emotionally charged conclusion. Actually looking at and calculating the numbers as they will be implemented. Not just jumping off the handle and saying WAAAAAAAHWAAAAAAH my number is smaller than his! Itís like explaining to a 5yr old that 5pennies are not more than 2 nickels. The language makes the numbers matter. Not the other way around.

There are plenty of guys here who know who i am and know that I donít work in management. I do however volunteer for the union and was on the organizing committee two times. It took ALPA 3 tries if you want to include the JBPA. I was in NYC at LSC in the freezing cold along side 700+ that are ready to improve our working conditions.

What is it you do here besides copy and paste, stomp your feet and say if I donít get everything I want Iím a NO like a 4yr old?

Tell me how youíre improving the lives of jetblue Pilots. Education certainly isnít it.

Quite sure I'm not. However, based on your support to demand less from negotiations, are you sure *you're* not management? I fail to see how your settling for less will be better for this group. How many times did it take to get ALPA at BJ? Some people learn only by making mistakes.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-05-2018, 07:39 AM
I do however volunteer for the union and was on the organizing committee two times. It took ALPA 3 tries if you want to include the JBPA. I was in NYC at LSC in the freezing cold along side 700+ that are ready to improve our working conditions.


Education certainly isnít it.


Oh yeah, you're up there with Tank Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man).


Why do we have Tier 2 AIP bulletpoints and why did it pass 12-0??



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Tianasquare.jpg

This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-05-2018, 11:43 AM
https://cdn.someecards.com/someecards/usercards/f07152a7cbdc28a493bd7d061558ec73.png


I see... so not going to answer any questions. got it.
You're a hero. Saving the world from the RLA one post at a time.

Bozo the pilot
06-05-2018, 12:55 PM
I see... so not going to answer any questions. got it.
You're a hero. Saving the world from the RLA one post at a time.

He's not a pilot at B6 cch. He's trying hard to derail this T/A before knowing what's in it, which is suspicious at best.
Might be time to block the Q posts. Ill give him 1 more to explain who he is. C'mon Qbert- admit who you employs you....:cool:

queue
06-05-2018, 01:35 PM
He's not a pilot at B6 cch. He's trying hard to derail this T/A before knowing what's in it, which is suspicious at best.
Might be time to block the Q posts. Ill give him 1 more to explain who he is. C'mon Qbert- admit who you employs you....:cool:


Sorry but I won't admit to anything per my disclaimer below. Go ahead and let your whole argument depend on whether I work at BJ or not. Censor me if you must - that's about all you really can do because clearly logic and reason escape you. I'm not going to de-identify just for you.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-05-2018, 01:39 PM
Sorry but I won't admit to anything per my disclaimer below. Go ahead and let your whole argument depend on whether I work at BJ or not. Censor me if you must - that's about all you really can do because clearly logic and reason escape you. I'm not going to de-identify just for you.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Your logic is flawed when you condemn the solution to an equation you don't know there for not even knowing the solution.

Your logic is illogical.

https://geekandsundry.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/spockfeature-970x545.jpg

queue
06-05-2018, 01:45 PM
Your logic is flawed when you condemn the solution to an equation you don't know there for not even knowing the solution.
Your logic is illogical.


Quite the opposite.


The AIP is substandard.
No amount of legalese will undo the substandard rates.
We will be last again.
Will the TA language contradict the AIP bulletpoints?

Quite logical.

On the other hand, you have not made a single logical argument as to why we should look past the AIP bulletpoints.

It will only get worse when we finally get to read the TA. I know you guys are "get a TA at all costs, no matter how crappy", but most people don't agree with your defeatist viewpoints. So keep making your standup PA's and dumpster diving.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-05-2018, 01:58 PM
Quite the opposite.


The AIP is substandard.
No amount of legalese will undo the substandard rates.
We will be last again.
Will the TA language contradict the AIP bulletpoints?

Quite logical.

On the other hand, you have not made a single logical argument as to why we should look past the AIP bulletpoints.

It will only get worse when we finally get to read the TA. I know you guys are "get a TA at all costs, no matter how crappy", but most people don't agree with your defeatist viewpoints. So keep making your standup PA's and dumpster diving.


This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Is it? how do we know?
No?

Credit for trip. (XRIGA+XRIGB+XRIGC)xHourlyRate=Credit

Logic says if I do not know XRigs or how they are applied, then I do not know Credit. Credit makes pay. Credit makes days off. Credit makes QOL.

Logically, we cannot derive credit until we know XRIGXXX. There for we cannot say we are behind, in front, or next to anything industry standard or otherwise. Your logic fails again, because Everything about the "legalese" could or could not sink this AIP.

Fail again supreme being. Logic always prevails.
http://www.ljagilamplighter.com/wp-content/uploads/spock1.jpg

You are emotionally attached to a number which you cannot calculate because it's not the biggest!

Will the TA contradict the bullet points? We will have to see, then make a decision when we can use logic to calculate the outcome.

Bozo the pilot
06-05-2018, 02:01 PM
Sorry but I won't admit to anything per my disclaimer below. Go ahead and let your whole argument depend on whether I work at BJ or not. Censor me if you must - that's about all you really can do because clearly logic and reason escape you. I'm not going to de-identify just for you.





This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Logic? Is it logical to decide or in your case, push a NO vote on a contract you haven't read yet? Thats idiotic and yes Q, emotional.
You are a victim of your own anger.

pilotpayne
06-05-2018, 02:13 PM
Is it? how do we know?
No?

Credit for trip. (XRIGA+XRIGB+XRIGC)xHourlyRate=Credit

Logic says if I do not know XRigs or how they are applied, then I do not know Credit. Credit makes pay. Credit makes days off. Credit makes QOL.

Logically, we cannot derive credit until we know XRIGXXX. There for we cannot say we are behind, in front, or next to anything industry standard or otherwise. Your logic fails again, because Everything about the "legalese" could or could not sink this AIP.

Fail again supreme being. Logic always prevails.
http://www.ljagilamplighter.com/wp-content/uploads/spock1.jpg

You are emotionally attached to a number which you cannot calculate because it's not the biggest!

Will the TA contradict the bullet points? We will have to see, then make a decision when we can use logic to calculate the outcome.



This guy.



Why must we go over and over this.
They could have come out with industry leading pay and have crap work rules and you would end up making less.

I got paid 5 hours at 190% because they took my one flight away and DH me 2 hours later. I selfed got home early and made some cash for almost nothing.

Work rules is where the real value is.

I feel like we are doing

1x_= what?

Que keeps putting a 0 in there or at best a 1 when we donít know the value of the other (work rules)number. We donít know the value so yes it absolutely can change what those rates are worth. This has been proven in cba after cba but yet somehow thatís now not the case.

We are arguing about something we donít have the full language on, and I donít know why.

pilotpayne
06-05-2018, 02:13 PM
Logic? Is it logical to decide or in your case, push a NO vote on a contract you haven't read yet? Thats idiotic and yes Q, emotional.
You are a victim of your own anger.


Thatís assuming he has the right to vote.

queue
06-05-2018, 02:42 PM
Logic? Is it logical to decide or in your case, push a NO vote on a contract you haven't read yet? Thats idiotic and yes Q, emotional.
You are a victim of your own anger.


Your retorts are laughable. I've already explained that it's a NO vote by default. The bar is high to get to Yes. I just don't see how any amount of rules can compensate for the substandard AIP rates. Some of you guys sound like a leftist ANTIFA brigade in need of a safe space.



The false choice here is that *some* rules might benefit *some*. This is really only true of the pilots with seniority who can pick and choose the juiciest trips for pay/productivity. So your rules will really only benefit the same 5% now that pick up everything in open time, play FLICA games, form cliques to trade amongst yourselves, or get special treatment from crew services. The remaining 95% of the pilots won't be able to take advantage of the so called rules. That's why rates matter so much. It's just the dinosaurs feeding off the young. But, let's wait for the final language to see that this first proposal is a complete dud.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

queue
06-05-2018, 02:53 PM
Credit for trip. (XRIGA+XRIGB+XRIGC)xHourlyRate=Credit

Logic says if I do not know XRigs or how they are applied, then I do not know Credit. Credit makes pay. Credit makes days off. Credit makes QOL.



Assuming all trips are equal in productivity, which they cannot be. Therefore if you rely on rules alone, you will simply have the dinosaurs poaching the best trips like they do now. Most people will have an inequity formed by unproductive trips. So you can't accept sub-standard pay for the vague promise of rules that will only benefit 5%. We need Pay & Rules.

I can't wait to see the rules so we can all see the final total compensation amounts under various scenarios.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

CaptCoolHand
06-05-2018, 03:59 PM
Assuming all trips are equal in productivity, which they cannot be. Therefore if you rely on rules alone, you will simply have the dinosaurs poaching the best trips like they do now. Most people will have an inequity formed by unproductive trips. So you can't accept sub-standard pay for the vague promise of rules that will only benefit 5%. We need Pay & Rules.

I can't wait to see the rules so we can all see the final total compensation amounts under various scenarios.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Well that's true, seniority has its benefits. Always has always will. Not sure where 5% comes from but, you'll surely show us some data?

I can't wait to see the rules either!!!

AH EF it! lets vote no now! Flush the NC and the MEC and lets start over. It's obviously not worth looking at!!! Because my number is tinier than someone else's number.... means my peepee is tinier. even though I may under the rules of how I'm paid actually make more than the bigger number.

isn't this fun!?!? I'm having fun.

Bozo the pilot
06-05-2018, 04:01 PM
Your retorts are laughable. I've already explained that it's a NO vote by default. The bar is high to get to Yes. I just don't see how any amount of rules can compensate for the substandard AIP rates. Some of you guys sound like a leftist ANTIFA brigade in need of a safe space.



The false choice here is that *some* rules might benefit *some*. This is really only true of the pilots with seniority who can pick and choose the juiciest trips for pay/productivity. So your rules will really only benefit the same 5% now that pick up everything in open time, play FLICA games, form cliques to trade amongst yourselves, or get special treatment from crew services. The remaining 95% of the pilots won't be able to take advantage of the so called rules. That's why rates matter so much. It's just the dinosaurs feeding off the young. But, let's wait for the final language to see that this first proposal is a complete dud.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Whats laughable is your assertion that anything is a dud. You have no idea what the work rules are Q. You're guessing. Keep typing, this is batting practice for anyone who who relies on fact before they decide.
It's a regional pilot who looks at pay rates and judges the TA solely on those.
At least argue the profit sharing cliff- you would then have a point. Your obsession with the hourly rate is JV.... Q.
Keep it comin- Batter up :D

Bozo the pilot
06-05-2018, 04:02 PM
Assuming all trips are equal in productivity, which they cannot be. Therefore if you rely on rules alone, you will simply have the dinosaurs poaching the best trips like they do now. Most people will have an inequity formed by unproductive trips. So you can't accept sub-standard pay for the vague promise of rules that will only benefit 5%. We need Pay & Rules.

I can't wait to see the rules so we can all see the final total compensation amounts under various scenarios.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.
Really- You want the final language? Whats the occasion? Thought that wasn't necessary for you.

pilotpayne
06-05-2018, 04:27 PM
Assuming all trips are equal in productivity, which they cannot be. Therefore if you rely on rules alone, you will simply have the dinosaurs poaching the best trips like they do now. Most people will have an inequity formed by unproductive trips. So you can't accept sub-standard pay for the vague promise of rules that will only benefit 5%. We need Pay & Rules.

I can't wait to see the rules so we can all see the final total compensation amounts under various scenarios.



This communique is for entertainment purposes only. It does not implicitly or explicitly acknowledge employment with any air carrier nor is any relationship implied. This communique does not represent the opinions or policies of ALPA or JB ALPA and does not represent the collective pilot group, ALPA, nor does it imply collective bargaining, advocacy, or workforce actions intended to disrupt operations.

Thatís not exactly true. Those senior guys already get the best trips. Now with better work rules there will be more of them so it should flow down.
It will also help reserve guys with ďrulesĒ(they tend to be junior)
It will evenly distribute vacation and go with round bidding so that will also help even out a top heavy system.

nuball5
06-05-2018, 04:42 PM
He's not a pilot at B6 cch. He's trying hard to derail this T/A before knowing what's in it, which is suspicious at best.
Might be time to block the Q posts. Ill give him 1 more to explain who he is. C'mon Qbert- admit who you employs you....:cool:

No chance he's a Jetblue pilot. This T/A is supposed to address QOL, time off and vacation. No actual Jetblue pilot would have time to post 20 times a day on APC during the summer if they actually worked here.

pilotpayne
06-05-2018, 05:41 PM
No chance he's a Jetblue pilot. This T/A is supposed to address QOL, time off and vacation. No actual Jetblue pilot would have time to post 20 times a day on APC during the summer if they actually worked here.

Now you know why we are so late.

But forget the MEC with his circular logic, the ability to keep repeating the same talking points, insisting he is here to help us and the use of graphics charts and colors I would say JG found her number 2

Bluedriver
06-06-2018, 03:07 AM
Is it? how do we know?
No?

Credit for trip. (XRIGA+XRIGB+XRIGC)xHourlyRate=Credit

Logic says if I do not know XRigs or how they are applied, then I do not know Credit. Credit makes pay. Credit makes days off. Credit makes QOL.

Logically, we cannot derive credit until we know XRIGXXX. There for we cannot say we are behind, in front, or next to anything industry standard or otherwise. Your logic fails again, because Everything about the "legalese" could or could not sink this AIP.

Fail again supreme being. Logic always prevails.
http://www.ljagilamplighter.com/wp-content/uploads/spock1.jpg

You are emotionally attached to a number which you cannot calculate because it's not the biggest!

Will the TA contradict the bullet points? We will have to see, then make a decision when we can use logic to calculate the outcome.

I would think anything even remotely close to that would have been put in the highlights.

Just my opinion.

hyperboy
06-06-2018, 03:49 AM
I would think anything even remotely close to that would have been put in the highlights.

Just my opinion.


There you going thinking again........

You could go to your union meeting tonite. I'll see you there.

CaptCoolHand
06-06-2018, 05:29 AM
I would think anything even remotely close to that would have been put in the highlights.

Just my opinion.

I would have liked to see them in the bullets as well. But Iím guessing the reason they were not is the language was not fully drafted.

Bozo the pilot
06-06-2018, 05:47 AM
No chance he's a Jetblue pilot. This T/A is supposed to address QOL, time off and vacation. No actual Jetblue pilot would have time to post 20 times a day on APC during the summer if they actually worked here.

:D Your logic is sound.
Seriously, there's no way Q flies for B6. The tone and intent are suspicious.

Bluedriver
06-06-2018, 07:01 AM
I would have liked to see them in the bullets as well. But Iím guessing the reason they were not is the language was not fully drafted.

The language is to support the AIP agreement highlights or bullet points, not to create new ones or new concepts or new ways of implementing rigs.

My opinion.

CaptCoolHand
06-06-2018, 07:36 AM
The language is to support the AIP agreement highlights or bullet points, not to create new ones or new concepts or new ways of implementing rigs.

My opinion.

I agree it's to support, but there are many new concepts here that we don't know.

Pairing construction "industry leading" well how does that affect the rigs?
Vacation new allocation and distribution
PTO: can we sell it all or just sick time?
Reserve rules and how it's credited
How will all these things drive the staffing model and how it will affect seniority.

All new concepts that we don't know.

Nothing will change the dollar rates or the COLA or the PS at this point unless we send it back. But there's a lot still up in the air.
We could have a new aircraft or one less. There's so many unknown variables at this point it's pretty pointless to even consider yes or no.

Can't wait for some color so I can push back.

Bluedriver
06-06-2018, 07:48 AM
I agree it's to support, but there are many new concepts here that we don't know.

Pairing construction "industry leading" well how does that affect the rigs?
Vacation new allocation and distribution
PTO: can we sell it all or just sick time?
Reserve rules and how it's credited
How will all these things drive the staffing model and how it will affect seniority.

All new concepts that we don't know.

Nothing will change the dollar rates or the COLA or the PS at this point unless we send it back. But there's a lot still up in the air.
We could have a new aircraft or one less. There's so many unknown variables at this point it's pretty pointless to even consider yes or no.

Can't wait for some color so I can push back.

This is really going to **** me off (even more) if we are forced to vote without knowing our future fleet.

CaptCoolHand
06-06-2018, 07:58 AM
This is really going to **** me off (even more) if we are forced to vote without knowing our future fleet.

100% behind that!

Tom a Hawk
06-06-2018, 08:10 AM
This is really going to **** me off (even more) if we are forced to vote without knowing our future fleet.

Seen too many times where a company has dangled different equipment trying to get a contract done. Then they swap it around. Iím suspicious of any forward looking statements about the fleet as it applies to this aip. We have to make a decision about the contract assuming we have our fleet exactly as it is today. Airplanes could stop coming tomorrow.

Bluedriver
06-06-2018, 08:22 AM
Seen too many times where a company has dangled different equipment trying to get a contract done. Then they swap it around. Iím suspicious of any forward looking statements about the fleet as it applies to this aip. We have to make a decision about the contract assuming we have our fleet exactly as it is today. Airplanes could stop coming tomorrow.

Indeed.

But why stop the conspiracy theory there? They could park all 60 E90s and just not replace them...

I'm mostly concerned with what I see as the most likely scenarios.

Either they have been spreading the C-series "done deal" rumors as a ruse to get people to vote for this contract with terrible E95 rates and will announce an E95 order after the vote or we do order the C.

My opinion.

I would put some stock in a fleet review Wall Street announcement if announced before the vote, but I also understand they could pull a bait and switch. I just don't think that is likely.

hyperboy
06-06-2018, 10:54 AM
I agree it's to support, but there are many new concepts here that we don't know.

Pairing construction "industry leading" well how does that affect the rigs?
Vacation new allocation and distribution
PTO: can we sell it all or just sick time?
Reserve rules and how it's credited
How will all these things drive the staffing model and how it will affect seniority.

All new concepts that we don't know.

Nothing will change the dollar rates or the COLA or the PS at this point unless we send it back. But there's a lot still up in the air.
We could have a new aircraft or one less. There's so many unknown variables at this point it's pretty pointless to even consider yes or no.

Can't wait for some color so I can push back.

Where do I vote YES?!...........:D



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