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pilotluke
05-30-2018, 08:31 AM
Hey everyone, can you all give me some insight on what is a likely scenario coming into the regionals with 800-1000 hours of Cape Air 135 commuter PIC time? Would you foresee a pilot getting hired as a DEC or an FO with an almost immediate upgrade once through training. Cape Air is one of the few operators that qualifies for the 135 PIC scheduled commuter time towards the 1000 121 upgrade time. I am a few years out, and I know things will be different, but I'm trying to get some inside knowledge about upgrade trends. Thank you in advance


ZeroTT
05-30-2018, 08:41 AM
Going from an unpressurized piston twin to an RJ captain seems like an INCREDIBLY bad idea

jpso
05-30-2018, 09:07 AM
I vaguely recall the hours requirement needing to be from a multiengine turbine-powered, fixed-wing airplane. I may be wrong but, I don't think CapeAir counts unless it's ATR.


VIRotate
05-30-2018, 09:10 AM
Going from an unpressurized piston twin to an RJ captain seems like an INCREDIBLY bad idea

Agreed 100%.

Yes the time counts but you will struggle going from a GA piston to a 121 jet. The FAA does count the time but sorry at the end of the day, you are flying a GA plane. Itís 1000% less complicated than what you would be going to too and yes I was a 9K pilot myself.

Do yourself a favor and get at least 500 hours in the right seat. Then you may feel somewhat comfortable upgrading. Just remember that if you pink your 121 ride, you can pretty much kiss any legacy career goodbye or at least itís going to extend your regional career by a big amount.

Donít want to be a downer, but if you donít have 121 jet experience, there is no way you will become an effective captain after a 6 week class.

pilotluke
05-30-2018, 09:12 AM
Going from an unpressurized piston twin to an RJ captain seems like an INCREDIBLY bad idea


I wouldn't expect to be ready right out of the gate, but having the option to use that time as an accelerator would be nice. I do have some experience in pressurized turbo-props, but I hear what you're saying.

pilotluke
05-30-2018, 09:14 AM
I vaguely recall the hours requirement needing to be from a multiengine turbine-powered, fixed-wing airplane. I may be wrong but, I don't think CapeAir counts unless it's ATR.


The regs state that multi-engine scheduled commuter time counts. A little backwards considering single-engine turboprops in a scheduled commuter operation doesn't apply (Pilatus)...although they are more advanced than Cape Air C402s

pilotluke
05-30-2018, 09:18 AM
Agreed 100%.

Yes the time counts but you will struggle going from a GA piston to a 121 jet. The FAA does count the time but sorry at the end of the day, you are flying a GA plane. Itís 1000% less complicated than what you would be going to too and yes I was a 9K pilot myself.

Do yourself a favor and get at least 500 hours in the right seat. Then you may feel somewhat comfortable upgrading. Just remember that if you pink your 121 ride, you can pretty much kiss any legacy career goodbye or at least itís going to extend your regional career by a big amount.

Donít want to be a downer, but if you donít have 121 jet experience, there is no way you will become an effective captain after a 6 week class.


Thank you for the feedback. I agree with you 100%. I hear people who have a year or two of 121 jet time not upgrading because they didn't feel they were ready. I do see some of the regionals are forcing upgrades so I don't want to put myself in that position of being forced because of my qualifying time if I'm not ready.

VIRotate
05-30-2018, 09:23 AM
Thank you for the feedback. I agree with you 100%. I hear people who have a year or two of 121 jet time not upgrading because they didn't feel they were ready. I do see some of the regionals are forcing upgrades so I don't want to put myself in that position of being forced because of my qualifying time if I'm not ready.

Totally. Just make sure you are absolutely ready before the upgrade. I know a cape guy who did it after around 500 hours and he is doing fine. Good luck whichever way you choose!

ZeroTT
05-30-2018, 09:49 AM
so I don't want to put myself in that position of being forced because of my qualifying time if I'm not ready.

Surely the union/chief pilot would intervene on your behalf in this case. Nobody would win making someone go from a 6000lb unpressurized piston to a 60,000 lb jet.

rickair7777
05-30-2018, 10:03 AM
Totally. Just make sure you are absolutely ready before the upgrade. I know a cape guy who did it after around 500 hours and he is doing fine. Good luck whichever way you choose!


I would say that previous 121/135 time of any sort + 500 hours as a 121 jet SIC would suffice if you're reasonably sharp. Best to spend those 500 hours asking a lot of questions.

Swedish Blender
05-30-2018, 11:35 AM
Donít want to be a downer, but if you donít have 121 jet experience, there is no way you will become an effective captain after a 6 week class.

121 jet time won't make you an effective captain either. I would think since the OP is already a captain, being effective would not be a problem. You could say he may not be comfortable flying the plane, but that is a different argument.

I mean, how did anybody going from a Saab/ATR/J31/1900 do it?

VIRotate
05-30-2018, 12:10 PM
121 jet time won't make you an effective captain either. I would think since the OP is already a captain, being effective would not be a problem. You could say he may not be comfortable flying the plane, but that is a different argument.

I mean, how did anybody going from a Saab/ATR/J31/1900 do it?

Itís a GA airplane at the end of the day. I was a CA on it too. Honestly was nothing like the 121 world. Heck Slaabs, ATRs, etc are probably much more difficult to fly than most modern jets. A 402C isnít.

Itís hard to be an effective captain when you are trying to keep up with the airplane and the operation. Itís just setting yourself up for failure. Just my .02.

teddy3412
05-30-2018, 12:46 PM
9K allum here. Came to my regional with about 900 hours of 135 time. Would highly suggest against taking an upgrade and get about 500 hours before jumping to the left seat. Its mostly about learning the way the company works, how to effectively fly a jet, and how to be a captain in a crew environment. I MIGHT have been able to pass the captain ride right away but I wouldn't know Jack crap going to the line. Asks lots of questions, study the manuals and keep up to date.

ZeroTT
05-30-2018, 04:16 PM
To what degree is time important vs seasons? Is 500 hours april-October then cutting your teeth in winter smart?

rickair7777
05-30-2018, 05:06 PM
To what degree is time important vs seasons? Is 500 hours april-October then cutting your teeth in winter smart?

If you're the PIC, then yes learn to fly the plane in nice WX before trying it out in ice and snow. If you're SIC, doesn't really matter.

ZeroTT
05-30-2018, 05:34 PM
If you're the PIC, then yes learn to fly the plane in nice WX before trying it out in ice and snow. If you're SIC, doesn't really matter.

Sorry - my question wasn't clear. Do you want to become a captain with no previous SIC experience in winter ops?

SJSsynnotforme
05-30-2018, 06:18 PM
Wait, does my part 135 250 hr pic on the C402 count towards the 1000 part 121 for upgrade?

That will safe me 3 month's🤣..

Tell me I am dreaming..

rickair7777
05-30-2018, 06:21 PM
Sorry - my question wasn't clear. Do you want to become a captain with no previous SIC experience in winter ops?

No.
.........

Swedish Blender
05-30-2018, 09:55 PM
Sorry - my question wasn't clear. Do you want to become a captain with no previous SIC experience in winter ops?

Circa 1996, Continental Express had a bunch of B1900 captains who upgraded in 6 months in Cleveland without seeing a winter as FO.

threeighteen
05-31-2018, 03:22 AM
Circa 1996, Continental Express had a bunch of B1900 captains who upgraded in 6 months in Cleveland without seeing a winter as FO.

The 1900 is a very forgiving airplane compared to a CRJ, especially when it comes to winter ops. Apples to Oranges.

teddy3412
05-31-2018, 03:28 AM
Wait, does my part 135 250 hr pic on the C402 count towards the 1000 part 121 for upgrade?

That will safe me 3 month's🤣..

Tell me I am dreaming..

Only if it was at a commuter operation along the lines of cape air as PIC with passengers. Then yes it would count.

rickair7777
05-31-2018, 05:58 AM
Circa 1996, Continental Express had a bunch of B1900 captains who upgraded in 6 months in Cleveland without seeing a winter as FO.

Turboprops used to crash a lot back then too.

pilotluke
05-31-2018, 07:52 AM
Thank you everyone for the constructive comments. I appreciate all of your insight and will take the recommendations to heart. Cape Air seems like a diamond in the rough and will definitely make me a better pilot before joining the ranks at the regionals.

Swedish Blender
05-31-2018, 10:48 AM
Turboprops used to crash a lot back then too.

I cited Cotex and their short upgrade. I mustíve missed all their accident reports :rolleyes:

Fr8Thrust
05-31-2018, 11:42 AM
Itís not right, but thatís how our govít basically killed the 135 path for anyone aspiring to fly 121. I waited for my 1000 121 and I can honestly say I learned what I needed after 300 SIC and spent the remaining 1000 throwing gear for folks who no clue what they were doing. Someone who has 135 experience at a reputable operator has much more to offer than someone whoís only flown 121, but thatís just my opinion. Itís the dirtbag 134.5 outfits that give 135 a bad name to those who donít know.

NeverHome
06-01-2018, 06:32 AM
Itís not right, but thatís how our govít basically killed the 135 path for anyone aspiring to fly 121. I waited for my 1000 121 and I can honestly say I learned what I needed after 300 SIC and spent the remaining 1000 throwing gear for folks who no clue what they were doing. Someone who has 135 experience at a reputable operator has much more to offer than someone whoís only flown 121, but thatís just my opinion. Itís the dirtbag 134.5 outfits that give 135 a bad name to those who donít know.

Never did any 135. However I have flown t-props at a 121. Then went to another 121 where I upgraded on a jet. Now when it comes to the FOs I fly with, those with previous t-prop 135 or 121, are way ahead of the game. Im not talking company procedures, but situational awareness.

IMHO, I think t-props are a great platform to really learn on. Weight, complexity, operating environment, etc. Some solid experience there!

So basically in a way I agree, just refined it a bit :D

word302
06-01-2018, 11:21 AM
Only 135 in a turbojet aircraft with 10 or more seats counts towards the 121 experience. So no, Cape Air time will not help.

knewyork
06-01-2018, 11:53 AM
Only 135 in a turbojet aircraft with 10 or more seats counts towards the 121 experience. So no, Cape Air time will not help.

Not true, several people from cape air went to piedmont within the last 2 years and upgraded immediately. I know 4 of them personally. And another who upgraded within 6 months at endeavor.

word302
06-01-2018, 12:01 PM
Not true, several people from cape air went to piedmont within the last 2 years and upgraded immediately. I know 4 of them personally. And another who upgraded within 6 months at endeavor.

Well hope it doesn't bite them. The regs are pretty clear.

VIRotate
06-01-2018, 12:03 PM
Only 135 in a turbojet aircraft with 10 or more seats counts towards the 121 experience. So no, Cape Air time will not help.

Yes it does. I know a few people who upgraded with less than 1000 121 with Cape time. My buddy had I think 3 or 400 when he upgraded.

word302
06-01-2018, 12:20 PM
Yes it does. I know a few people who upgraded with less than 1000 121 with Cape time. My buddy had I think 3 or 400 when he upgraded.

I've also heard of people being pulled off line because their company did not understand the regs. Just sayin'.

ZeroTT
06-01-2018, 12:25 PM
Well hope it doesn't bite them. The regs are pretty clear.

Yes, they are indeed

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter,

SJSsynnotforme
06-01-2018, 01:49 PM
Only if it was at a commuter operation along the lines of cape air as PIC with passengers. Then yes it would count.

Ex. 9k here too. Thanks

SJSsynnotforme
06-01-2018, 01:51 PM
Yes, they are indeed

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter,

Something worth to study...

animation
06-01-2018, 03:28 PM
It depends on the individual. While I was at Cape Air I flew both the 402 and the ATR as an FO. It was common for 402 captains to transition to ATR captain without any 121 experience. There were some who didnít make the cut, there were some who did just fine. As others have said, it doesnít hurt to have time in the right seat.

dera
06-01-2018, 10:08 PM
I've also heard of people being pulled off line because their company did not understand the regs. Just sayin'.

You might want to re-read the reg. Just sayin'.

word302
06-01-2018, 11:02 PM
Yes, they are indeed

(1) Of a turbojet airplane, of an airplane having a passenger-seat configuration, excluding each crewmember seat, of 10 seats or more, or of a multiengine airplane in a commuter operation as defined in part 119 of this chapter,

Doh. Iím an idiot.

Paid2fly
06-01-2018, 11:17 PM
Doh. Iím an idiot.







Hopefully you've learned your lesson here, and will vote NO!;):D

word302
06-02-2018, 07:45 AM
Hopefully you've learned your lesson here, and will vote NO!;):D

Lol. Havenít voted yes in 4 years. Donít see it happening anytime soon.



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