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fenix1
06-01-2018, 12:31 AM
We'll hope this won't be a reality anytime soon, but does anyone happen to know if pilots (at least those who flew for QX initially before AS?) can be displaced from AS back to QX in tough times? Or would furloughed AS pilots - including those formerly with QX - simply be out of work if AS reduced headcount?

My understanding is that pilots can flow back to the 3 AA wholly-owned regionals from AA mainline if circumstances dictate, so I was curious how AAG might handle this. (I'm not sure how this would work between DL & EDV either.) The 3 AA wholly-owned regionals are the only ones with true flow to mainline so it may be a different situation than QX/AS (and EDV/DL), but seems like it would benefit AS (and DL) & the affected pilots if the ability to displace back to the regional in bad times (rather than being furloughed) was present.


at6d
06-01-2018, 02:00 AM
...and the AA/Eagle flowback that did happen was a total **** show when it went down. We had like 130 flow up, and 600 something come back. Good times. Not.

mainlineAF
06-01-2018, 02:32 AM
AA mainline cannot flow back to PSA if there is a furlough. PSA can flow to mainline but not the opposite. Totally insane.

Iím not sure about piedmont or eagle flow backs.


DjHubberts
06-01-2018, 05:15 AM
My guess is that this is exactly why the Pathway is not being considered a flow-through. Typically, for a program to be a flow through, there are usually agreements in place with both unions, for flow back if needed.

Cyio
06-01-2018, 06:59 AM
AA canít flow back back to Envoy either. Eagle learned that lesson the hard way.

DashAviator
06-01-2018, 07:47 AM
The "Pilot Pathways" program isn't a flow-through, so there is no "flow back".

mainlineAF
06-01-2018, 09:13 AM
AA canít flow back back to Envoy either. Eagle learned that lesson the hard way.



So youíre saying itís fair that envoy pilots can flow to AA but AA pilots couldnít flow back if there were furloughs? Thatís insanity.

WhiskeyDelta
06-01-2018, 09:18 AM
So youíre saying itís fair that envoy pilots can flow to AA but AA pilots couldnít flow back if there were furloughs? Thatís insanity.


Itís all about whatís negotiated. Compassís flow to Delta included flow-back language that gave Delta pilots the option to go to Compass or the street.

fenix1
06-01-2018, 09:49 AM
Interesting - my understanding from an ENV pilot was exactly the opposite of this. I'll have to circle back with them to make sure there wasn't a miscommunication of some kind.

AA canít flow back back to Envoy either. Eagle learned that lesson the hard way.

fenix1
06-01-2018, 09:49 AM
Many thanks, DA

The "Pilot Pathways" program isn't a flow-through, so there is no "flow back".

Klsytakesit
06-01-2018, 12:51 PM
That Pathways program is not even close to a flow. Horizon pilots dont get any longevity. They are no different than any other new hire pilot. Seniority and longevity begin on day 1 when they are hired
by Alaska and start class at Alaska. Pathways basically says if you behave at Horizon....don't call in sick, don't call on fatigued, don't say no to crew scheduling, and allow Alaska Airlines to monitor your entire FAA record and your Horizon Air record before you are employed by Alaska then you wont have to interview again.

fenix1
06-01-2018, 11:36 PM
Thanks a lot - Iím tracking on the essence of the Pathways program (although it sounds like the opportunity to move onto to AS from QX could be even more legitimate than I realized so thanks for all you shared), but I wasnít sure about the one element (potential to roll back to QX after AS hire if a bad moon rose), but everyone has been a great help in making it clear that dog wonít hunt!

That Pathways program is not even close to a flow. Horizon pilots dont get any longevity. They are no different than any other new hire pilot. Seniority and longevity begin on day 1 when they are hired
by Alaska and start class at Alaska. Pathways basically says if you behave at Horizon....don't call in sick, don't call on fatigued, don't say no to crew scheduling, and allow Alaska Airlines to monitor your entire FAA record and your Horizon Air record before you are employed by Alaska then you wont have to interview again.

Cyio
06-03-2018, 06:27 AM
So youíre saying itís fair that envoy pilots can flow to AA but AA pilots couldnít flow back if there were furloughs? Thatís insanity.

Yes. First of all thatís what was negotiated. Secondly, the flow we have is to replace your retiring pilots allowing anyone that is with AA to move up the list, we are not displacing anyone or causing them to move down.

Envoy flowing up is nothing compared to AA flowing down.

Dashdrvr
06-03-2018, 09:52 AM
Thanks a lot - Iím tracking on the essence of the Pathways program (although it sounds like the opportunity to move onto to AS from QX could be even more legitimate than I realized so thanks for all you shared), but I wasnít sure about the one element (potential to roll back to QX after AS hire if a bad moon rose), but everyone has been a great help in making it clear that dog wonít hunt!
The element nobody is recognizing or stating. The pathways program puts you in seniority based pool for only 30 percent of the pilot positions that Alaska will offer. The other 70 percent will be selected from an outside candidate pool. For example, I hear 150+ people are in the QX/30 pool curently. It wouldn't be unheard of to have 300 in the pool by the end of the year. Keep in mind QX opening up the interview process for the QX/30 is at the company discretion. AS has marked a goal of 150 pilots next year. Best case scenario 3-6 years to get a shot at AS position.

BigfatQ
06-03-2018, 02:06 PM
To be honest that doesn't even sound that bad. In my case ideally I'd like to get 1000h 121 pic before I move on. In the meantime it'll improve qol because more senior captains will be moving on to AS. Not that I'm hoping that it'll take longer than necessary..

fenix1
06-05-2018, 01:37 AM
Thanks and I understand. The positive I see is that thereís movement to AS period, albeit on whatever timeline may transpire; too many of these programs smell like nothing but recruiting tools for the regional and allow for the possibility of not getting any real opportunity with the mainline carrier at all. QX may be able to meter when & how many of their pilots enter the pool, but AS is contractually obligated to make 30% of the AS hires be from QX, right?

The element nobody is recognizing or stating. The pathways program puts you in seniority based pool for only 30 percent of the pilot positions that Alaska will offer. The other 70 percent will be selected from an outside candidate pool. For example, I hear 150+ people are in the QX/30 pool curently. It wouldn't be unheard of to have 300 in the pool by the end of the year. Keep in mind QX opening up the interview process for the QX/30 is at the company discretion. AS has marked a goal of 150 pilots next year. Best case scenario 3-6 years to get a shot at AS position.

DashAviator
06-05-2018, 12:32 PM
I think the 30% figure is just a goal, not any kind of contractually agreed-upon number. I'm not aware of any recent company information showing exactly how many Horizon pilots have moved on to Alaska. I think the actual number in 2017 (2016?) was closer to 26%. About 100 or so pilots have signed up for the program.

I am not a fan of flow-through programs or the Pathways program, but I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of it. The parameters of the program are so vaguely defined (and the record-sharing requirements so intrusive) that pilots can be rejected for any reason. On the other hand... most of the pilots that apply are getting accepted. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone that had a negative experience with the program.

Klsytakesit
06-05-2018, 07:38 PM
It seems that the acceptance rate into the Pathways Program is high. But that has little to do with actually getting hired by Alaska Airlines. There is no contractual requirement to hire any QX pilots. The 30% number was used to help Horizon with attrition. Alaska has since said that it is their goal

Cruz5350
06-05-2018, 10:45 PM
Iíd still keep your apps up to date at other carriers as well since it sounds like our best case scenario is hiring at the end of the year.

Vanilla
06-06-2018, 11:50 AM
Yep, there is no official contract for this program. "Alaska Airlines commits to hiring at least 30%...." is all that is stated on the pathways web page. A commitment is like a politician making a pledge during a campaign. And we know how those turn out. :)

fenix1
06-06-2018, 10:32 PM
Thanks for highlighting that the 30% number should really been seen as what AS has said they hope to do, rather than being something that AS is bound to do in any way!

cactusflyer
06-08-2018, 11:53 AM
It's worth mentioning that Alaska has a habit of keeping QX people in their pool way longer than outside applicants (with all the loss of seniority that entails), especially if QX happens to be short staffed for whatever reason.

During the QX meltdown last year, I believe we had people sitting in the pool for something like 11 months because Horizon couldn't afford to lose any more pilots, and although Alaska did cut that time down significantly, there's zero guarantee they won't pull the same stunt the next time QX can't staff flying.

Excargodog
06-08-2018, 01:18 PM
Yep, there is no official contract for this program. "Alaska Airlines commits to hiring at least 30%...." is all that is stated on the pathways web page. A commitment is like a politician making a pledge during a campaign. And we know how those turn out. :)

1. Check's in the mail.
2. I'll still love you in the morning.
3. I won't ............



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