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View Full Version : Abx new hire


Shabby
06-01-2018, 12:12 PM
Hi all,
I just interviewed wit ABX, and got an offer. I see a lot of people are not happy with the company, but I have been searching for a lot of airlines, and it seems to me that no one is happy anywhere.
So please, I would really appreciate some good feedback on how life really is as an FO with ABX. I will be commuting. I know there is things people are not happy with, but there must be other things people are happy with to? I mean otherwise why would you be with them? The job market is so good, why would you not just go to a regional if no major is currently hiring you?
TIA!


atpcliff
06-01-2018, 12:26 PM
Omni, Kalitta, FedEx/UPS/DAL/UAL/AA/SWA/Hawaiian/SunCountry all seem pretty happy, as does SkyWest and Endeavor. Also haven't heard complaints from ATI lately, but I would not recommend going there.

qiutong
06-01-2018, 01:54 PM
There are a host of reasons that I would suggest that you decline ABXís offer of a job, but the most pressing reason, would be to help those currently employed at ABX, successfully achieve an attractive and fair CBA. If new people keep accepting job offers, under the current, sub-par CBA, it gives our management the idea, that they donít need to make any changes in their current business model, which is making life miserable for those already flying here. If new people stop showing up for interviews/classes, maybe theyíll come to the realization that they need to ďsweeten the potĒ and come to an agreement for a better contract, in order to attract new pilots, and retain those already here. Your declining the job, could help contribute to the improvement in conditions for those currently here, and those that are hired post-contract. I might be able to understand your coming here, if jobs were hard to come by elsewhere, but as you pointed out, thatís not the case. Go somewhere else and help us out. Many of us are still here, because weíve been here for 20+ years and are not able to voluntarily take the huge loss of pay associated with moving to a new company, not to mention, many of us are too old and fat to get hired anywhere else. So, do yourself and all of us a favor, and keep looking elsewhere for a job.


GeelErmo
06-01-2018, 02:14 PM
40+% of all new hires (May 2016-till now) quit. So, I hope U figure it out urself. Good luck elsewhere.

Industry Strnd
06-01-2018, 03:25 PM
That should tell you a lot right there current employees saying go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on other threads but in my opinion here are the facts:

Jr manning happens all the time, you will be required to work on your days off. They always run short staffed.

Abx is losing flying most recently Atlanta. There are less and less line holders each month.

The last upgrades were well over a year ago and all the FOS who upgraded had 20 plus years with the company. There entire top half of the FO list has 20 years too. You will be waiting a long long long time to upgrade.

The union simply will not be caving to accept any concessions or ATI like contract. Management is ruthlesss here and this could be the final straw. They are going to continue to move flying elsewhere until it's all gone. And the pilots are prepared to retire or go elsewhere to work.

Reserve life is pure hell. There is no reserve "system" they can do what ever they please to you including 12 hour ready reserve at the airport with no limits, you will do alot of it! Be prepared to be on reserve for 2 years or more which will require a lot of out of pocket hotel rooms!

Even though they say they are paying for hotels and Per diem during training the union is filing a grievance and if successful you will pay for it on your own. Nobody here had it paid for and management simply doesn't care that nobody before you got it. Everyone else paid for it on their own and you will too!

Scheduling just cuts off trades when they feel like it with no recourse. Good luck on ever planning.

One bust in a type and it stays with you forever in your background check.

Why would you want to work for a place that doesn't care about pilots?

It's all threats, intimidation, no growth, out dated contract. The president brags about how many pilots he has furloughed in his career!

You said your going to commute? No KCM here and the commute clause requires you get to cvg 6 hours before you sign in with 2 flights off line. In the system you can do 1 flight but that's limited and losing flying doesn't help. Ask everyone commuting from atl.

Seriously there are much much better places to work. Every 151 is looking elsewhere and some senior folks.

Anyone who would come to a place that doesn't appreciate pilots must have trouble getting hired at a real airline!

Amazon yeah right they hate abx because of the strike. Even if it takes off just Google news articles they say it could be 2025 until cvg is built out and there is no guarantee abx will be here to do any of the flying when ATI is full of pilots with no self worth willing to do it for RJ pay!

Good luck being a new FO and you decide to take the job. You can sit there for 5 hours on the flight and stare at the panel. And when you get back you can sit for 12 hours in cvg on reserve and think why in the heck didn't you listen to peer advice!

Shabby
06-01-2018, 03:41 PM
That should tell you a lot right there current employees saying go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on other threads but here are the facts:

Jr manning happens all the time, you will be required to work on your days off. They always run short staffed.

Abx is losing flying most recently Atlanta. There are less and less line holders each month.

The last upgrades were well over a year ago and all the FOS who upgraded had 20 plus years with the company. There entire top half of the FO list has 20 years too. You will be waiting a long long long time to upgrade.

The union simply will not be caving to accept any concessions or ATI like contract. Management is ruthlesss here and this could be the final straw. They are going to continue to move flying elsewhere until it's all gone. And the pilots are prepared to retire or go elsewhere to work.

Reserve life is pure hell. There is no reserve "system" they can do what ever they please to you including 12 hour ready reserve at the airport with no limits, you will do alot of it! Be prepared to be on reserve for 2 years or more which will require a lot of out of pocket hotel rooms!

Even though they say they are paying for hotels and Per diem during training the union is filing a grievance and if successful you will pay for it on your own. Nobody here had it paid for and management simply doesn't care that nobody before you got it. Everyone else paid for it on their own and you will too!

Scheduling just cuts off trades when they feel like it with no recourse. Good luck on ever planning.

One bust in a type and it stays with you forever in your background check.

Why would you want to work for a place that doesn't care about pilots?

It's all threats, intimidation, no growth, out dated contract. The president brags about how many pilots he has furloughed in his career!

You said your going to commute? No KCM here and the commute clause requires you get to cvg 6 hours before you sign in with 2 flights off line. In the system you can do 1 flight but that's limited and losing flying doesn't help. Ask everyone commuting from atl.

Seriously there are much much better places to work. Every 151 is looking elsewhere and some senior folks.

Anyone who would come to a place that doesn't appreciate pilots must have trouble getting hired at a real airline!

Amazon yeah right they hate abx because of the strike. Even if it takes off just Google new articles they say it could be 2025 until cvg is built out and there is no guarantee abx will be here to do any of the flying when ATI is full of pilots with no self worth willing to do it for RJ pay!

Good luck being a new FO and you decide to take the job. You can sit there for 5 hours on the flight and stare at the panel because you won't be talking and you won't be reading nobody wants any new hires now accept maybe 1 captain and management! And when you get back you can sit for 12 hours in cvg on reserve and think why in the heck didn't you heed to peer advice!
Thank you! I appreciate the honest feedback with reasoning! I appreciate that you are actually willing to tell what is wrong instead of just saying "this company sucks and no one should come here".

motorclutch
06-01-2018, 03:50 PM
.......and the company sucks and you should not come here. ATSG is now paying penalties to DHL per month for late departure arrivals. Maintenance is horrible. The Vice President of maintenance is blaming the pilots for writing up jets and the president recently told his employees that pilots work only 13 days a month and get paid $200,000 a year. He referred to us as greedy. Have a feeling those words are going to bite him in the third quarter.

Industry Strnd
06-01-2018, 03:52 PM
I wish you the best what ever you decide. Look at jet blue and spirit if you can't get a major. They just rewarded their pilots with rates much higher than abx and ati and a 15% retirement plan not to mention defined growth plans with a real reserve system and trip trades done with a computer! Imagine that!

nitefr8dog
06-01-2018, 03:55 PM
That should tell you a lot right there current employees saying go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on other threads but in my opinion here are the facts:

Jr manning happens all the time, you will be required to work on your days off. They always run short staffed.

Abx is losing flying most recently Atlanta. There are less and less line holders each month.

The last upgrades were well over a year ago and all the FOS who upgraded had 20 plus years with the company. There entire top half of the FO list has 20 years too. You will be waiting a long long long time to upgrade.

The union simply will not be caving to accept any concessions or ATI like contract. Management is ruthlesss here and this could be the final straw. They are going to continue to move flying elsewhere until it's all gone. And the pilots are prepared to retire or go elsewhere to work.

Reserve life is pure hell. There is no reserve "system" they can do what ever they please to you including 12 hour ready reserve at the airport with no limits, you will do alot of it! Be prepared to be on reserve for 2 years or more which will require a lot of out of pocket hotel rooms!

Even though they say they are paying for hotels and Per diem during training the union is filing a grievance and if successful you will pay for it on your own. Nobody here had it paid for and management simply doesn't care that nobody before you got it. Everyone else paid for it on their own and you will too!

Scheduling just cuts off trades when they feel like it with no recourse. Good luck on ever planning.

One bust in a type and it stays with you forever in your background check.

Why would you want to work for a place that doesn't care about pilots?

It's all threats, intimidation, no growth, out dated contract. The president brags about how many pilots he has furloughed in his career!

You said your going to commute? No KCM here and the commute clause requires you get to cvg 6 hours before you sign in with 2 flights off line. In the system you can do 1 flight but that's limited and losing flying doesn't help. Ask everyone commuting from atl.

Seriously there are much much better places to work. Every 151 is looking elsewhere and some senior folks.

Anyone who would come to a place that doesn't appreciate pilots must have trouble getting hired at a real airline!

Amazon yeah right they hate abx because of the strike. Even if it takes off just Google news articles they say it could be 2025 until cvg is built out and there is no guarantee abx will be here to do any of the flying when ATI is full of pilots with no self worth willing to do it for RJ pay!

Good luck being a new FO and you decide to take the job. You can sit there for 5 hours on the flight and stare at the panel. And when you get back you can sit for 12 hours in cvg on reserve and think why in the heck didn't you listen to peer advice!
100% spot on!

qiutong
06-01-2018, 05:16 PM
That should tell you a lot right there current employees saying go elsewhere. There is a lot of information on other threads but in my opinion here are the facts:

Jr manning happens all the time, you will be required to work on your days off. They always run short staffed.

Abx is losing flying most recently Atlanta. There are less and less line holders each month.

The last upgrades were well over a year ago and all the FOS who upgraded had 20 plus years with the company. There entire top half of the FO list has 20 years too. You will be waiting a long long long time to upgrade.

The union simply will not be caving to accept any concessions or ATI like contract. Management is ruthlesss here and this could be the final straw. They are going to continue to move flying elsewhere until it's all gone. And the pilots are prepared to retire or go elsewhere to work.

Reserve life is pure hell. There is no reserve "system" they can do what ever they please to you including 12 hour ready reserve at the airport with no limits, you will do alot of it! Be prepared to be on reserve for 2 years or more which will require a lot of out of pocket hotel rooms!

Even though they say they are paying for hotels and Per diem during training the union is filing a grievance and if successful you will pay for it on your own. Nobody here had it paid for and management simply doesn't care that nobody before you got it. Everyone else paid for it on their own and you will too!

Scheduling just cuts off trades when they feel like it with no recourse. Good luck on ever planning.

One bust in a type and it stays with you forever in your background check.

Why would you want to work for a place that doesn't care about pilots?

It's all threats, intimidation, no growth, out dated contract. The president brags about how many pilots he has furloughed in his career!

You said your going to commute? No KCM here and the commute clause requires you get to cvg 6 hours before you sign in with 2 flights off line. In the system you can do 1 flight but that's limited and losing flying doesn't help. Ask everyone commuting from atl.

Seriously there are much much better places to work. Every 151 is looking elsewhere and some senior folks.

Anyone who would come to a place that doesn't appreciate pilots must have trouble getting hired at a real airline!

Amazon yeah right they hate abx because of the strike. Even if it takes off just Google news articles they say it could be 2025 until cvg is built out and there is no guarantee abx will be here to do any of the flying when ATI is full of pilots with no self worth willing to do it for RJ pay!

Good luck being a new FO and you decide to take the job. You can sit there for 5 hours on the flight and stare at the panel. And when you get back you can sit for 12 hours in cvg on reserve and think why in the heck didn't you listen to peer advice!



^^^^^^and these are the ďhost of reasonsĒ that I didnít mention in my earlier post.....decline the offer and look elsewhere!!

mukalel
06-01-2018, 06:44 PM
Hi all,
I just interviewed wit ABX, and got an offer. I see a lot of people are not happy with the company, but I have been searching for a lot of airlines, and it seems to me that no one is happy anywhere.
So please, I would really appreciate some good feedback on how life really is as an FO with ABX. I will be commuting. I know there is things people are not happy with, but there must be other things people are happy with to? I mean otherwise why would you be with them? The job market is so good, why would you not just go to a regional if no major is currently hiring you?
TIA!
What are you currently doing? We just gave away 5 of our airplanes from cam to amerijet. That tells you something about abx.. they are currently doing nothing to grow this company .. they are giving away all our assets to grow our competition.. the crappiest and most spiteful management i have ever worked with..

Reactivity
06-01-2018, 07:51 PM
The job market is so good, why would you not just go to a regional if no major is currently hiring you?
TIA!

Because we're not all 25 years old, single, and able to live on less than $50K per year indefinitely.

Because if a major isn't calling after a couple years of heavy international flying here, why would a couple years of domestic Barbie jet flying look any better?

Because "flow" agreements take years to pay off...if they ever pay off.

Because quick upgrades only happen until the mainline carrier decides to shift a bunch of flying to a different regional carrier.

Because history has shown that hiring can stop at any moment without warning, and even if we never get a better contract, I'll be making more in the right seat here than in the left seat at a regional.

303flyboy
06-01-2018, 08:37 PM
I was a little reluctant to write my opinion but here it is. First and most important thing I should say though is this. What makes me happy and what is important to me might not necessarily be the same for the next boy or girl. So this is simply my opinion.

I left ABX a while ago for a LCC best move I ever made. Living in base is always huge, but working for a company with normal work rules, normal computer systems where I can trade/bid/drop/pick up and not having to call after a trip to see if my days off tomorrow actually mean they are my days off (....) is worth its weight in gold. Plus sitting reserve at home for 4 days followed by 4 off is a joke. Yes, this happens as a line holder at ABX. You finish your trip at 4 AM and actually have to ask if you can go home. If no messages, you are good to go. And before some one jumps on this and says well there are ways to work it... Thats great, I shouldn't have to work it though. Day off means day off.

Now, let me start with the good.

Pilots:

You will be flying with some of the best people out there. And I mean this. I am still friends with many captains and FOs there (though most FOs left), and I can't remember one guy I didn't enjoy flying with. *which is easy as they are all old and asleep most of the flight :D. All joking aside truly a great pilot group. very vast majority of them good stick and rudder pilots and just pleasant to fly with.

Money :

Second year its ok. And thats on the concessiary contract. You will be JRM'd (D6 days) on your days off and will make good money because of it. You will be utterly fatigued (do you work for a regional right now -- take my word for it you have no idea what fatigued means) and you won't have time to spend it (not joking) but you will be making good money. You shouldn't have to loose years on your life though to make a good paycheck flying a 767...

Training department:

Very very good people. No BS, old airborne express haters are gone but still the old airborne mentality (in a good way). They make good pilots out of their students. Wont hold your hand but will teach you the 76. Good attitude and work hard and you have nothing to worry about. (just like any other training event -- shocker). 9 FTDs or so and Sim 7 or 8 is your ride I believe with with room for 2 extra but my buddy and I didn't need that and I will also say that by sim 5 you just want to do the ride so you can go home. Again, just like any other airline out there. IOE: they signed me off at 17 hours. It's an airplane. You get used to how high you are sitting quick. That for current 121 pilots I believe they can sign you off at 15. If it takes longer thats fine too I think they will give you 40? Don't know.

767:

Gentlemans aircraft. Happy I got signed off in both seats (have to for IRO ops) and just truly a joy to fly. ABX birds are getting older, and the last time the plane got updated was 1965. No PDC, Pack off because its to loud, No ACARS, paper plates, and scoring flights every 30 minutes or so. Yes domestic included. Didn't even know what that was till I started flying there. And also truly glad I learned how to call for clearance again. Miss my Cessna days. After you hand over the paperwork after a trip if you made one mistake (you know because its not like its day 12 and 4 AM somewhere over the Andes and your so damn tired you don't even know you last name anymore) they will call you out on this and make you correct it and fax it back for no reason. Im not making this up. Oh wait I was talking about the good. Ok well, I love the plane. Just hands down I love it. Joy to fly . You'll be too tired to enjoy it but on the rare occasion I was somewhat awake I truly enjoyed flying it and not one capt who doesn't allow you to turn everything off way out and fly the thing. Absolutely loved it.

Teamsters:

I am a very pro union guy and teamsters is by far the best group for ABX. They will protect the group at all cost. Makes ALPA look like girl scouts. At least I get a cool ALPA magazine these days.. I will say though that its sad that such a strong union is needed. Upper management are truly bullies. The guy right below Soapy has a good soul. But he still works for people who truly only care about money and will walk over your for every penny. Not understanding that this will bite them long term. Investing in your employees always yields long term results.

The not so good :

Day 1:

No KCM and no CASS till you are done with training. No KCM period. Not embarrassing at all at the airport.. The CASS is the bigger point though. For most (well when I got hired) this is their 3rd/4th/12th airline job. Most guys have families and even if you don't you deserve to go home on your days off. They give you some line on how the FAA is not ok with pilots who didn't pass their check ride being in CASS.. Interesting story, as every other regional pilot and their mothers get it on day one. It just shows a lot of disrespect to me. And after spending 2/3 months in the cornfields, take my word for it, you will want to go home. If you live in CVG or are considering the move, there are some nice areas there and like always, this will improve your QOL.

ABX birds :

Old old old old. Pack off for your ears, no IPAD no PDC no ACARS no absolutely nothing. Don't get me started, no this is not a deal breaker but it is indicitve for where the company is on safety and how much they care.

Flying :

Contract is being broken ad nauseam. day night transitions, 12 days reserve in CVG in the DHL hub illegal repo's at 6 am after you flew all afternoon before and sat reserve that night..

You won't know what fatigue is till you start doing this flying. Seriously. I remember flying the arc in Mexico City onto the VOR (hey someone has too when the CA is sleeping on his leg) and trying to wake the guy up next to me but he wouldn't wake up. I wasn't sure if he was dead. I thought I just went up one number in seniority.
Finally when I dropped the gear he woke up. Asked him if he wanted the landing on his leg :D. In hindsight I should have kept the plane. I stopped counting the amount of times waking up somewhere finding the ca and iro asleep. My record is 33 hours awake. 24 hours was normal I was literally falling apart. Do they still do that lovely Lima turn out of Miami at 2 am? its awesome when you came in the day before and try to turn your body around to fall asleep at 4 pm. Wont work.

summary :

I loved the plane. Pilot group.. Probably one of the best people FOs and Captains you will deal with. Captains will ask you on day 1 what is wrong with you why are you here, but they will welcome you with open arms and you will be part of the group.

Very very very bitter. Understandable. They once worked for a large well respected express carrier. Now its nothing more than just another ACMI outfit and that understandably hurts. Pensions got cut. Pay got cut. And now as mgmt is getting more money than they know what to do with, they won't share with the pilot group. When I got hired you still had to do a psych test online and fly the DC8 sim. Loved it. They took pride in who they brought on. Now they will hire you with a (or without just shut up about it) a pulse.

Ultimately what did it for me is the ancient work rules and the utter disrespect (I mean I have never seen anything like it) upper mgmt has for its pilots. I mean it doesn't compare to Jetblue or Frontier or Republic or SkyWest.. It doesn't compare to anything. Its literally spite.

I called my parents and told them listen im going back to the regionals as a street CA if I have too. I rather work 4 days trips living in base making 100K waiting for AA to call than doing this. You will make more money as an ABX FO for sure than a regional CA, however I was so unhappy I was done.

I used to do hiring at one of the larger regionals and used to tell candidates listen.. If the music stops tomorrow, would you be happy here? for me the answer was no. And I guess that is what it ultimately is all about, what makes you and your family happy? QOL is everything to me. Don't care about the plane or seat anymore.

What would have kept me at ABX ?

A normal contract with good work rules. Not one regional (never mind LCC or Legacy) out there with such arcade reserve and work rules. The place has so much potential, but upper management doest not care. At all.

So my advice to you is ask yourself this.. If it all ends tomorrow, could you see yourself at ABX the rest of your career? choose what makes you happy (which is different for me or the next pilot) and go with it.

303flyboy
06-01-2018, 09:57 PM
As a final quick note: There are some really nice people working in the office. HR and scheduling have some lovely people working there who want to help you, their hands are tight. Don't take it out on them. They work a lot harder for less and only so much they can do when they are working for a not so much pro labor mgmt..

Reactivity
06-01-2018, 10:10 PM
As a final quick note: There are some really nice people working in the office. HR and scheduling have some lovely people working there who want to help you, their hands are tight. Don't take it out on them.

Very true. I have a couple of particular favorites. I remember both of them told me "welcome to the family" after I finished IOE. I almost feel bad ignoring their JRM calls when I'm off at home. Almost. And then there's at least one who is sort of spring-loaded to NO. So you wait until one of those others is working and call back for a better shot at the answer you want.

303flyboy
06-01-2018, 10:18 PM
Very true. I have a couple of particular favorites. I remember both of them told me "welcome to the family" after I finished IOE. I almost feel bad ignoring their JRM calls when I'm off at home. Almost. And then there's at least one who is sort of spring-loaded to NO. So you wait until one of those others is working and call back for a better shot at the answer you want. :)

I hear ya brother! Exactly what I used to do !

nitefr8dog
06-02-2018, 06:52 AM
Because we're not all 25 years old, single, and able to live on less than $50K per year indefinitely.

Because if a major isn't calling after a couple years of heavy international flying here, why would a couple years of domestic Barbie jet flying look any better?

Because "flow" agreements take years to pay off...if they ever pay off.

Because quick upgrades only happen until the mainline carrier decides to shift a bunch of flying to a different regional carrier.

Because history has shown that hiring can stop at any moment without warning, and even if we never get a better contract, I'll be making more in the right seat here than in the left seat at a regional.

Just a couple points....you will NEVER upgrade at ABX...we have 20yr FO's who cannot upgrade to Captain. Second, you will see the unemployment line sooner rather than later...I would be suprized if you made it to 2nd yr. Reread some of the previous posts...ABX is downsizing and losing business. They have no new business on the horizon and are only hiring to wind things down..IMHO.

motorclutch
06-02-2018, 08:18 AM
Naaaa...... Soapy and ATSG indicate we have tons of applicants. Rich Carrado when addressing the financial community stated that as fact. Would there be any penalties for misrepresenting company data in order to bolster stock prices? Just wondering.

Hang10
06-02-2018, 10:53 AM
Wow, so true! I have over 20 y ars here and it becomes a bigger **** hole everyday!

nitefr8dog
06-02-2018, 11:45 AM
Naaaa...... Soapy and ATSG indicate we have tons of applicants. Rich Carrado when addressing the financial community stated that as fact. Would there be any penalties for misrepresenting company data in order to bolster stock prices? Just wondering.
They might have tons of applicants...which if you can hired here you can get a job anywhere. What they will not have is business or airframes at the rate we are parking planes because we lost the flight or leasing them to someone else. So it would be 3 mos of buying hotel rooms and food....all while memorizing a bunch of crap you will never use. For what a 767 type? That is almost like paying for a DC8 type these days.

Reactivity
06-02-2018, 06:41 PM
I would be suprized if you made it to 2nd yr.

I'm already in my second year.

Reactivity
06-02-2018, 07:43 PM
...if you can hired here you can get a job anywhere.

You're saying that ABX has higher standards than anyone else?

boyzarus
06-02-2018, 08:51 PM
... repost from over a year ago.

For ANYONE considering ABX as a career choice, please heed the warnings. These are the good olí days in the airline industry, donít settle for the lifestyle that ABX offers. The pilots at ABX are absolutely outstanding airman, but they donít control your life like the callous and uncaring management you will work for. I gave up the chance to be #1 on the ABX list to be junior forever at a legacy carrier. And, Iíd do it over a thousand times. Think hard about your choices.


A little over a year ago, I left ABX after 21 years for a legacy airline. That was a tough decision, but I'm 100% happy I had the opportunity to leave. What really pushed me out the door was the burden of angst that I seemed to carry even when I was at home. Keep in mind that there is a massive divide between the old crews and the new hires at ABX. Most existing crew members there have a couple of decades or more at the company. They remember what it was like to fly for a company that had integrity, goals and pride. The cargo world is devoid of niceties and extras that the pax carriers take for granted... but that's ok. That's part of the sacrifice and buy-in that it takes to do the work. However, for that commitment, there is the expectation that the employer is going to fight like hell to be a great airline and support its people (pilots). Airborne Express was like that.
Unfortunately, for a variety of reasons, ABX Air lost it's moral compass. The path that management chose to take after DHL in 2003 has manifested into a toxic culture. The "old heads" will never forget the awful fall from grace that the company electively chose. For you new guys, congratulations for being hired into an international, heavy jet operation, that's valuable. But do yourself a favor and don't let it be your entire life. If you can avoid letting your work world taint your personal life, you'll probably be ok. You don't have the baggage of distrust and heartache that the old crews hold. Just beware, it's invasive, like a cancer. Go fly the big airplanes and see the world, but don't believe in promises and false hope. Maybe you can be the new guard that turns things around.

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 04:06 AM
You're saying that ABX has higher standards than anyone else?
Just the opposite....you only need to be barely breathing to get hired here just like most places today. Why set the bar so low. Go elsewhere.

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 04:10 AM
I'm already in my second year.
Wow...sorry to hear that. Alot of time wasted on an airline without a prayer of surviving.

Bungalow
06-03-2018, 06:38 AM
Wow...sorry to hear that. Alot of time wasted on an airline without a prayer of surviving.

Yeah pitiful. How about you ? How much time have you wasted ?

gumpscheck
06-03-2018, 07:41 AM
Yeah pitiful. How about you ? How much time have you wasted ?

Over twenty in my case. All Nite is trying to do is open your eyes, and everyone elseís, so you all donít make the same mistake we did. But you are too consumed with yourself and you are getting defensive.

I guess you wonít believe Nite until you see the first announcement about furloughs and captain surpluses. Which I believe is around the corner. Then donít come crying to us.

Stimpy the Kat
06-03-2018, 08:07 AM
So, you have an all you can eat buffet in front of you...and you ask if you should have "The Pile of Sh!t Special" for dinner?

ABX ???

Hahahahahaha,hahahahahahha,hahahahahaha,hahahahah. .!

WTH?

Wake up.

:(

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 09:15 AM
So, you have an all you can eat buffet in front of you...and you ask if you should have "The Pile of Sh!t Special" for dinner?

ABX ???7

Hahahahahaha,hahahahahahha,hahahahahaha,hahahahah. .!

WTH?

Wake up.

:(
Exactly.....

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 09:31 AM
Yeah pitiful. How about you ? How much time have you wasted ?
I am not waiting for an upgrade that will not happen. I also am not sitting reserve and buying crashpads and hotel rooms while eating out of my own pocket. I have the things you should have and could have elsewhere...like a retirement and profit sharing. If I didn't I would not be here. If they close the doors tomorrow it would not change my lifestyle at all. Like I have said before...the idiots at ATI will be working to fund my retirement. How about you..would you be scrambling to find work? If so you should not be wasting more time at ABX. If it's just a hobby for you or you just like to stay up all night to fly airplanes by all means stay.

Reactivity
06-03-2018, 11:34 AM
Just the opposite....you only need to be barely breathing to get hired here just like most places today. Why set the bar so low. Go elsewhere.

Clearly, you don't think too highly of those of us on the lower end of the seniority list. Because if it was just that simple to get hired somewhere else, most of us would not be here. And I'll refer you to my previous post about why we don't "just go to a regional".

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 11:38 AM
Clearly, you don't think too highly of those of us on the lower end of the seniority list. Because if it was just that simple to get hired somewhere else, most of us would not be here. And I'll refer you to my previous post about why we don't "just go to a regional".
I do question why anyone would come here now or 2 yrs ago...we were yrs behind in negotiations and working under a concessionary contract which included no retirement for new hires... and a well documented management and pilot group hatred for each other. As far as thinking highly....most everyone I have worked with have been good guys. And because just as you said "if it was just that simple " management will most likely continue its destructive path. Why? They are just not able to figure how to run an ACMI carrier. Bidding on flying, staffing, working with a pilot group to try and get the most productivity from them without threats.. (that never work) is a total mystery to them. And like yourself ...pilots will continue coming here knowing that or not doing research and coming anyway.

woog315
06-03-2018, 12:36 PM
I do question why anyone would come here now or 2 yrs ago...we were yrs behind in negotiations and working under a concessionary contract which included no retirement for new hires... .

We have 7.5% defined contribution to our 401k, which is better than any other ACMI or regional (as far as I know on regionals, not positive). Aren't you the one always griping about getting the facts straight? I have no interest in a pension, they don't do anything except blow up over time and I don't understand why people still want them at this point- With a couple of exceptions, they are basically a failed social experiment. Give me the money in a 401k and let it be mine, thanks.

Anyways, in regard to the original question. ABX has been dying in slow motion for over 10 years now, and the pilot group refuses to understand that their contract does not resemble an ACMI carrier in any way shape or form and that they are, in fact, an ACMI carrier. It is completely uncompetitive and inflexible in an industry that demands competition and flexibility. You don't have to like that, but it is a truth whether you like it or not. I won't even get into the hilarious political lack of self awareness and hypocrisy that is required by all the old ultraconservative trump lovers to somehow expect the union to deliver something completely out of step with the rest of the industry and cry foul when they get their ass handed to them over and over in court and the negotiating table and out-competed in the "real world" by pilot groups that are simply hungrier. That's fine, whatever. ABX got lucky and got a chunk of Amazon flying, but they ****ed that up too, and now DHL shrinks and continues to shrink and everyone chooses to stick their fingers in their ears and blame management. Believe it or not, ATSG is not just doing ok... they are thriving. And they are doing it without any cooperation from ABX whatsoever, while continuing to shrink us. We're not nearly as necessary as we arrogantly believe we are.

Whatever you think is "right" or "wrong", don't come to ABX. It is a dying cowboy, pointing the gun at its own head. We'll get a contract eventually (we're scoped into DHL, and while its shrinking and will likely continue to shrink, its still making money for a while), but unless it looks more like an ACMI carrier and is followed by a merger with ATI, this place will continue to dwindle into irrelevance. But the 'legacy' guys mostly don't mind that because they can milk it until retirement then watch it burn down out of spite. A lot of them will straight up tell you this, and I can't say I blame them, honestly. To be clear, not everyone thinks this way and its true what people say, despite some (in my opinion) really misguided hardheadedness, the group here is great to fly the line with and there is a lot to be learned here for anyone learning to fly a big jet. The place has a very rich, albeit poisoned, history. But, anyone under 50 is actively looking to leave, and there are plenty of places to go. There is no new flying on the horizon, in fact we stand to lose a big chunk of business soon (the day of reckoning keeps getting pushed back, but it will be gone eventually), and there is no reason to think the next DHL contract will bring more business. There could very easily be displacements here within a year, if not outright furloughs. Something else may fall from the sky or NAC may fold, leaving us the SAS business (There's no reason to think that will happen, but ABX has been saved by the bell several times now) If you want to be a part of what I'm describing, come on down.

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 04:08 PM
We have 7.5% defined contribution to our 401k, which is better than any other ACMI or regional (as far as I know on regionals, not positive). Aren't you the one always griping about getting the facts straight? I have no interest in a pension, they don't do anything except blow up over time and I don't understand why people still want them at this point- With a couple of exceptions, they are basically a failed social experiment. Give me the money in a 401k and let it be mine, thanks.

Anyways, in regard to the original question. ABX has been dying in slow motion for over 10 years now, and the pilot group refuses to understand that their contract does not resemble an ACMI carrier in any way shape or form and that they are, in fact, an ACMI carrier. It is completely uncompetitive and inflexible in an industry that demands competition and flexibility. You don't have to like that, but it is a truth whether you like it or not. I won't even get into the hilarious political lack of self awareness and hypocrisy that is required by all the old ultraconservative trump lovers to somehow expect the union to deliver something completely out of step with the rest of the industry and cry foul when they get their ass handed to them over and over in court and the negotiating table and out-competed in the "real world" by pilot groups that are simply hungrier. That's fine, whatever. ABX got lucky and got a chunk of Amazon flying, but they ****ed that up too, and now DHL shrinks and continues to shrink and everyone chooses to stick their fingers in their ears and blame management. Believe it or not, ATSG is not just doing ok... they are thriving. And they are doing it without any cooperation from ABX whatsoever, while continuing to shrink us. We're not nearly as necessary as we arrogantly believe we are.

Whatever you think is "right" or "wrong", don't come to ABX. It is a dying cowboy, pointing the gun at its own head. We'll get a contract eventually (we're scoped into DHL, and while its shrinking and will likely continue to shrink, its still making money for a while), but unless it looks more like an ACMI carrier and is followed by a merger with ATI, this place will continue to dwindle into irrelevance. But the 'legacy' guys mostly don't mind that because they can milk it until retirement then watch it burn down out of spite. A lot of them will straight up tell you this, and I can't say I blame them, honestly. To be clear, not everyone thinks this way and its true what people say, despite some (in my opinion) really misguided hardheadedness, the group here is great to fly the line with and there is a lot to be learned here for anyone learning to fly a big jet. The place has a very rich, albeit poisoned, history. But, anyone under 50 is actively looking to leave, and there are plenty of places to go. There is no new flying on the horizon, in fact we stand to lose a big chunk of business soon (the day of reckoning keeps getting pushed back, but it will be gone eventually), and there is no reason to think the next DHL contract will bring more business. There could very easily be displacements here within a year, if not outright furloughs. Something else may fall from the sky or NAC may fold, leaving us the SAS business (There's no reason to think that will happen, but ABX has been saved by the bell several times now) If you want to be a part of what I'm describing, come on down.

"NAC may fold" now that's funny. Do a little research on the parent company. Anywho....everything you just said backs my post....why come here? Thanks. As far as the 7.5% contribution....its nothing. Industry standard is in the 14% range. Not sure what you mean about pensions getting blow up but the laws have changed after the United/Delta/USAir days. Assets are now directly tied to the pensions (read aircraft) plus funding levels and penalties in place for underfunding. Plus I am told ABX is funded to correct levels.Your 401k is yours? Wait until some non conservative politicians decide means testing will decide what is yours..its only yours when you liquidate your accounts, pay taxes and stuff the money in coffee cans in your basement. Iam not sure why people get upset if someone says we are more likely to fail than survive. As far as you being sure about us getting a contract...can you please PM me the winning Powerball numbers?

point432
06-03-2018, 04:50 PM
"NAC may fold" now that's funny. Do a little research on the parent company. Anywho....everything you just said backs my post....why come here? Thanks. As far as the 7.5% contribution....its nothing. Industry standard is in the 14% range. Not sure what you mean about pensions getting blow up but the laws have changed after the United/Delta/USAir days. Assets are now directly tied to the pensions (read aircraft) plus funding levels and penalties in place for underfunding. Plus I am told ABX is funded to correct levels.Your 401k is yours? Wait until some non conservative politicians decide means testing will decide what is yours..its only yours when you liquidate your accounts, pay taxes and stuff the money in coffee cans in your basement. Iam not sure why people get upset if someone says we are more likely to fail than survive. As far as you being sure about us getting a contract...can you please PM me the winning Powerball numbers?



I think he said 7.5 was high compared to other ACMIs, not the industry as a whole.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

woog315
06-03-2018, 05:02 PM
"NAC may fold" now that's funny. Do a little research on the parent company. Anywho....everything you just said backs my post....why come here? Thanks. As far as the 7.5% contribution....its nothing. Industry standard is in the 14% range. Not sure what you mean about pensions getting blow up but the laws have changed after the United/Delta/USAir days. Assets are now directly tied to the pensions (read aircraft) plus funding levels and penalties in place for underfunding. Plus I am told ABX is funded to correct levels.Your 401k is yours? Wait until some non conservative politicians decide means testing will decide what is yours..its only yours when you liquidate your accounts, pay taxes and stuff the money in coffee cans in your basement. Iam not sure why people get upset if someone says we are more likely to fail than survive. As far as you being sure about us getting a contract...can you please PM me the winning Powerball numbers?

Jesus Christ, talk about driving my point home. Thanks for the assist.

And I specifically said there is no reason to think NAC would fail, but ABX has a way of being saved by random ****. That was the point.

And, argue all you want, our retirement currently leads the ACMI industry and you work for an ACMI carrier. The ACMI industry is littered with the carcasses of airlines that thought they were better than all the other guys and played hardball. ABX is just gonna be another one of em. I have a bridge to sell you if you think politicians are going to fight for your pension when the **** hits the fan.

I agree with you, anyone who comes here at this point is straight up foolish. However, we 151's signed up for a pretty promising Amazon development. Only to be thrown into a strike out of nowhere while ON IOE, which, if memory serves me correctly, not a single one of us voted on or knew anything about. The pay is good enough to allow us to be picky while we look for our next destination, so sorry if we aren't leaving fast enough for you. I assure you though, we're all leaving.

nitefr8dog
06-03-2018, 05:53 PM
Jesus Christ, talk about driving my point home. Thanks for the assist.

And I specifically said there is no reason to think NAC would fail, but ABX has a way of being saved by random ****. That was the point.

And, argue all you want, our retirement currently leads the ACMI industry and you work for an ACMI carrier. The ACMI industry is littered with the carcasses of airlines that thought they were better than all the other guys and played hardball. ABX is just gonna be another one of em. I have a bridge to sell you if you think politicians are going to fight for your pension when the **** hits the fan.

I agree with you, anyone who comes here at this point is straight up foolish. However, we 151's signed up for a pretty promising Amazon development. Only to be thrown into a strike out of nowhere while ON IOE, which, if memory serves me correctly, not a single one of us voted on or knew anything about. The pay is good enough to allow us to be picky while we look for our next destination, so sorry if we aren't leaving fast enough for you. I assure you though, we're all leaving.
Still waiting for the lucky numbers....

woog315
06-03-2018, 06:05 PM
Still waiting for the lucky numbers....

Yeah, you and everyone else at ABX.

nitefr8dog
06-04-2018, 02:42 AM
Yeah, you and everyone else at ABX.
Those lucky numbers will never come...the doors will be chained shut first. But I will take your crystal ball lottery predictions...

tiredofjrm
06-04-2018, 08:17 AM
Not one pilot here has recommended that you take the job. I can not recommend ABX either. Itís a toxic, shrinking airline. No one is happy here.

Stay where you are and wait for a better opportunity to come along.

BlueSkies88
06-04-2018, 02:12 PM
Not one pilot here has recommended that you take the job. I can not recommend ABX either. Itís a toxic, shrinking airline. No one is happy here.

Stay where you are and wait for a better opportunity to come along.

Maybe some bag tags would take the toxicity out of this place?
:D

#atipilotsfly4less
#atiscabs

tiredofjrm
06-05-2018, 01:02 PM
We have gone from 100+ lines to now 76.

Most of the lines this month are Miami flying which is going to NAC soon.

The writing is on the wall....

Reactivity
06-05-2018, 01:14 PM
We have gone from 100+ lines to now 76.


78 - there are two more at the tail end after all of the CA-only reserve lines.

woog315
06-05-2018, 01:50 PM
78 - there are two more at the tail end after all of the CA-only reserve lines.

Phew, crisis averted

point432
07-02-2018, 08:15 AM
Anyone else heard of any more recent new hires leaving? Word on the street is that two are leaving for Omni and another is going to K2 as a direct entry CA. These guys are coming here and just leaving right out of IOE!!!

motorclutch
07-02-2018, 08:39 AM
I doubt the direct hire captain. Even ALPA wouldnt allow that. Incidentlt, after this month ...... Iíll send K4 another candidate.

point432
07-02-2018, 11:06 AM
I doubt the direct hire captain. Even ALPA wouldnt allow that. Incidentlt, after this month ...... Iíll send K4 another candidate.



Nah not K4, K2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

vroll1800
07-02-2018, 12:08 PM
Nah not K4, K2.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who is K2 ?

GeelErmo
07-02-2018, 12:31 PM
Who is K2 ?

Kalitta Charters.

Industry Strnd
07-02-2018, 02:04 PM
ACMI....

Airline Can't Match Industry

Less pay
Less retirement
No rigs
Required to work on days off
Long ready reserve
Some flights not catered
Management that wants cheap labor and won't pay up like every airline has (except Frontier)
No profit sharing
Wipsaw just like regionals
Airplanes owned by a leasing company
Trying to shred work rules and benefits to rearrange a contract to make it look like a raise.
Has management that consistently threatens to fire or furlough pilots

Takes consessions and never gives it back

Tries every threat known to try and break the Union

More days of work than everyone else in the industry
16-17 days in a row of work
Stops trades or denies trades bcause staffing is short
Intentionally runs short staffed to make pilots work against their will!
Amain is not buying any airline any time soon and even if they would it's still sxxxxy contracts.

Don't make the same mistake some of us made while we wait for a real airline job!

mukalel
07-04-2018, 07:09 AM
We will know the real deal when we hit the 4th quarter and see if we renewed our dhl contract..

goinaround
07-04-2018, 09:29 AM
ACMI....

Airline Can't Match Industry

Less pay
Less retirement
No rigs
Required to work on days off
Long ready reserve
Some flights not catered
Management that wants cheap labor and won't pay up like every airline has (except Frontier)
No profit sharing
Wipsaw just like regionals
Airplanes owned by a leasing company
Trying to shred work rules and benefits to rearrange a contract to make it look like a raise.
Has management that consistently threatens to fire or furlough pilots

Takes consessions and never gives it back

Tries every threat known to try and break the Union

More days of work than everyone else in the industry
16-17 days in a row of work
Stops trades or denies trades bcause staffing is short
Intentionally runs short staffed to make pilots work against their will!
Amain is not buying any airline any time soon and even if they would it's still sxxxxy contracts.

Don't make the same mistake some of us made while we wait for a real airline job!

This is all pretty ABX specific. I wouldn't insult all ACMI operators by comparing them to us....

Lockheed
07-04-2018, 02:03 PM
This is all pretty ABX specific. I wouldn't insult all ACMI operators by comparing them to us....

Thank You....and good luck all of you ...even IS

mukalel
07-05-2018, 06:39 AM
Rumor has it that the mediator has had it enough with soappy and has told the management team that when they show up for mediation end of july, they better have something substancial they bring to the table.. if not, he is gonna reccomend self help for the pilot group.. goodluck to all the new hires coming thins way cuz its gonna be a crap show again ...

Industry Strnd
07-05-2018, 08:06 AM
This is all pretty ABX specific. I wouldn't insult all ACMI operators by comparing them to us....

Enlighten me how any ACMI carrier meets industry standards in all areas. You cannot because they don't. I'm sure you're a k4 guy that voted for alpa thinking it was a good move or may ATI yes vote?

nitefr8dog
07-05-2018, 09:31 AM
Enlighten me how any ACMI carrier meets industry standards in all areas. You cannot because they don't. I'm sure you're a k4 guy that voted for alpa thinking it was a good move or may ATI yes vote?
Looking at the K4 contract after taxes its 655$ per pay period 46$ per day than 12 yr concessionary contract at ABX...with 10k max 401k match and 2.00 per hr per diem. Hell at 50 and 80 per diem at ABX its a wash! It's a crap contract in these times . I am not talking overtime. We all can make 400k to 600kworking on days off or with rollup pay. Or at ABX with the the penalty pay for reassignment 300k not working on days off. Plus 19.5k in 401k DB. K4 has a crappy contract and ATI is worse. They both ate 15-18 yrs of $hit that nobody else would accept. Anything looks good compared to that.

Hang10
07-05-2018, 10:08 AM
About time for release! Everybody is sick of the turds running ABX. Employees,Pilots evan customers hate our management! Self Help should fix some of this!!!

goinaround
07-05-2018, 10:49 AM
Enlighten me how any ACMI carrier meets industry standards in all areas. You cannot because they don't. I'm sure you're a k4 guy that voted for alpa thinking it was a good move or may ATI yes vote?

I work for ABX. Iíve been on reserve for 2 years....no end in sight there. Paying for a crash pad and car while I sit 13 hour hot reserve shifts day after day. Spending that time scheming on how I can get out of a jrm call at the end of 18 days. Offline commuting with three options that get me to base several hours prior to show as per our commuting clause.
Tell me again how much better we are than anybody else.....

johnny150
07-05-2018, 01:28 PM
About time for release! Everybody is sick of the turds running ABX. Employees,Pilots evan customers hate our management! Self Help should fix some of this!!!



#readytostrikeagain

741waskipper
07-12-2018, 07:09 AM
I had not posted much at all about ABX Air during my two year tenure. And, I wanted to wait for a while to let any emotion drain out before commenting.
The OP asked for cogent thoughts on if he should accept a position with ABX Air. My direct reply? NO! It is not worth the harassment and attack on your morale, and lifestyle!
I was 25 years with an ACMI carrier, so this is not my first trip to the rodeo with companies such as ABX Air. Hopefully, that allows me to comment with some understanding.
Most of it has been covered in previous posts. So, I will not belabor the points. ABX got a new V.P. of Operations about a year ago. While my opinion always remained guarded, it seemed as if he really did want to heal the much salted wounds and hopefully still does. IMHO, he is being constrained by Soaper, and Hete as to what he can and cannot do. When he came to ABX, he took time to come to the Hub and spent his nights talking to the pilot group, both junior and senior. I told him this...In my 25+ years of service in ACMI, ABX Air is without doubt the most toxic, poisoned corporate environment that I had experienced. I was the NG, and expected to be treated as such. However, it was shocking to me to witness the disdain that the personnel in the Crystal Tower at ILN held for the pilot group as a whole. Flt Ops management was waiting with glee for the slightest misstep by a pilot giving them reason to mete out discipline
To any aviator needing to find a new gig, I would tell them to pass on ABX Air at all cost. It is simply not worth the heartache when you could focus your efforts on other opportunities. Two years at ABX Air was enough to make me abandon 27 years of 121 ACMI for a Pt. 91 gig. I wish the best for all the ABX crewmembers. But, my tea leaves were telling me that it is not a place that one wants to occupy the lower part of the seniority list.
It is said that one should always end on a positive, and that I will. The legacy Airborne pilots could not have been a better group to work with. Knowledgable, professional (I hate that term), and for the 99% great to spend the grueling hours on the flight deck and layovers with. Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for.

nitefr8dog
07-12-2018, 07:30 AM
I had not posted much at all about ABX Air during my two year tenure. And, I wanted to wait for a while to let any emotion drain out before commenting.
The OP asked for cogent thoughts on if he should accept a position with ABX Air. My direct reply? NO! It is not worth the harassment and attack on your morale, and lifestyle!
I was 25 years with an ACMI carrier, so this is not my first trip to the rodeo with companies such as ABX Air. Hopefully, that allows me to comment with some understanding.
Most of it has been covered in previous posts. So, I will not belabor the points. ABX got a new V.P. of Operations about a year ago. While my opinion always remained guarded, it seemed as if he really did want to heal the much salted wounds and hopefully still does. IMHO, he is being constrained by Soaper, and Hete as to what he can and cannot do. When he came to ABX, he took time to come to the Hub and spent his nights talking to the pilot group, both junior and senior. I told him this...In my 25+ years of service in ACMI, ABX Air is without doubt the most toxic, poisoned corporate environment that I had experienced. I was the NG, and expected to be treated as such. However, it was shocking to me to witness the disdain that the personnel in the Crystal Tower at ILN held for the pilot group as a whole. Flt Ops management was waiting with glee for the slightest misstep by a pilot giving them reason to mete out discipline
To any aviator needing to find a new gig, I would tell them to pass on ABX Air at all cost. It is simply not worth the heartache when you could focus your efforts on other opportunities. Two years at ABX Air was enough to make me abandon 27 years of 121 ACMI for a Pt. 91 gig. I wish the best for all the ABX crewmembers. But, my tea leaves were telling me that it is not a place that one wants to occupy the lower part of the seniority list.
It is said that one should always end on a positive, and that I will. The legacy Airborne pilots could not have been a better group to work with. Knowledgable, professional (I hate that term), and for the 99% great to spend the grueling hours on the flight deck and layovers with. Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for.

"Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for"

They will all probably be fired shortly after management reads this.

motorclutch
07-12-2018, 07:34 AM
Wake up Soapy......you and Joe have been called out again by a guy thats been there and done that! Denial of the facts will cost you in the long run. tick tick tick........the train is coming!

gumpscheck
07-12-2018, 07:59 AM
I had not posted much at all about ABX Air during my two year tenure. And, I wanted to wait for a while to let any emotion drain out before commenting.
The OP asked for cogent thoughts on if he should accept a position with ABX Air. My direct reply? NO! It is not worth the harassment and attack on your morale, and lifestyle!
I was 25 years with an ACMI carrier, so this is not my first trip to the rodeo with companies such as ABX Air. Hopefully, that allows me to comment with some understanding.
Most of it has been covered in previous posts. So, I will not belabor the points. ABX got a new V.P. of Operations about a year ago. While my opinion always remained guarded, it seemed as if he really did want to heal the much salted wounds and hopefully still does. IMHO, he is being constrained by Soaper, and Hete as to what he can and cannot do. When he came to ABX, he took time to come to the Hub and spent his nights talking to the pilot group, both junior and senior. I told him this...In my 25+ years of service in ACMI, ABX Air is without doubt the most toxic, poisoned corporate environment that I had experienced. I was the NG, and expected to be treated as such. However, it was shocking to me to witness the disdain that the personnel in the Crystal Tower at ILN held for the pilot group as a whole. Flt Ops management was waiting with glee for the slightest misstep by a pilot giving them reason to mete out discipline
To any aviator needing to find a new gig, I would tell them to pass on ABX Air at all cost. It is simply not worth the heartache when you could focus your efforts on other opportunities. Two years at ABX Air was enough to make me abandon 27 years of 121 ACMI for a Pt. 91 gig. I wish the best for all the ABX crewmembers. But, my tea leaves were telling me that it is not a place that one wants to occupy the lower part of the seniority list.
It is said that one should always end on a positive, and that I will. The legacy Airborne pilots could not have been a better group to work with. Knowledgable, professional (I hate that term), and for the 99% great to spend the grueling hours on the flight deck and layovers with. Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for.

Thank you for that message 741. It is so truthful and honest. Sorry to see you go.

To echo Motor; wake up Soapy and Hete. You guys are ruining this place. Joe, we helped you built this place and you are throwing it away with old grudges and attitudes.

motorclutch
07-12-2018, 08:13 AM
Gump......seriously its my opinion NO ONE is running this place! Just lost a great instructor who gave 10 days notice. 4th quarter is rapidly approaching.

gumpscheck
07-12-2018, 10:13 AM
Gump......seriously its my opinion NO ONE is running this place! Just lost a great instructor who gave 10 days notice. 4th quarter is rapidly approaching.

Wow!!! Is the instructor leaving the company or just the LCA position?

goinaround
07-12-2018, 10:38 AM
Very well said. And no amount of money or work rules in the new contract will make this a good company to work for. There will be one more resignation on the way.

Jurassic Jet
07-12-2018, 10:53 AM
Wow!!! Is the instructor leaving the company or just the LCA position?

He was a ground school instructor.

motorclutch
07-12-2018, 10:54 AM
Ground instructor not LCA. Old Airborne guy. Very pro Abx up until now.

741waskipper
07-12-2018, 02:30 PM
Ground instructor not LCA. Old Airborne guy. Very pro Abx up until now.

Romeo Charlie...Sierra Hotel...??

tiredofjrm
07-12-2018, 03:07 PM
I just talked to a fellow ABXer. He fractured his spine at work. The company is self insured and canceled his workers comp. Heís now forced to get a lawyer and pay the lawyer 33% of whatever they can get for him. Just another ABX management example.

Iím outta here soon. I have applied to 6 different jobs. Itís only a matter of time now.

Do not come here. Itís seriously toxic.

motorclutch
07-12-2018, 03:56 PM
Have your friend contact me Ive got a wonderful attorney who would love to take part of Soapys gold! ive used him in the past.

Reactivity
07-12-2018, 10:55 PM
Romeo Charlie...Sierra Hotel...??

The latter.

741waskipper
07-13-2018, 07:57 AM
The latter.

Well...I am sure he has something much better going! He is one of those guys that after meeting him, you walk away thinking "this is a guy who knows his stuff!"
Wish him all the best!

Industry Strnd
07-18-2018, 12:29 PM
Why are so many pilots not showing up for interviews and why are pilots dropping out before class begins? Can anyone think the last time that any acmi carrier actually filled a class for new hires?

point432
07-18-2018, 02:06 PM
Why are so many pilots not showing up for interviews and why are pilots dropping out before class begins? Can anyone think the last time that any acmi carrier actually filled a class for new hires?

They were filling classes because there was so much potential!!! When you have something going on, people will want to be apart of something big. Why come to something that is just an unknown? And if you make empty promises...well, they'll end up leaving right out of OE.

You need vision, leadership, and someone to sell your product.

mukalel
07-18-2018, 02:22 PM
ABX management cant even be called management.. they pocess no skills associated with a real management team.. no vision here and no growth.. a company with more pay and no growth may not be worth any thing for someone coming up in the industry nowadays... thats exactly what you will get even if abx gets a new contract.. people are just waiting for an opportunity to leave here..

Kougarok
07-18-2018, 03:14 PM
Thereís 2-3 pilots showing up for class on the 27th. Trust me youíre not helping anyone including yourself.

Industry Strnd
07-18-2018, 03:48 PM
I've heard of several pilots backing out of class and telling ABX as soon as therequired is a new a contract they will attend class. And they were told they can come to class anytime. I'd advise if your waiting on a class you may want to take this option. Cause the management threats and take it or leave it are still coming. Atsg could lose a ton of flying if their management team doesnt make a real offer to the pilots. Not some "management wet dream" discount flying Ati bs contract. 5000 pilots will be hired at airlines that pay better than ABX and ATI no pilot will have trouble finding a job, but managers with questionable resumes might have a harder time!

Jurassic Jet
07-18-2018, 04:11 PM
4th quarter is shaping up to be very interesting with the number of ABX pilots that are interviewing or are waiting on class dates. Could be VERY costly in premium pay once again (hello 2016?) if management doesnít do something to stop the bleeding of pilots quitting.

2lowflaps
07-18-2018, 05:12 PM
Iíve heard there are 7 ABX pilots that are leaving ABX in September without giving notice. They are doing this because of the way ABX treats their crews. They are going to a big corporate operation (part 91).

tiredofjrm
07-19-2018, 02:22 PM
Can I come? Please....

johnny150
07-21-2018, 07:37 AM
Follow @1224ABX on Twitter


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maxjet
07-24-2018, 06:48 AM
Why are so many pilots not showing up for interviews and why are pilots dropping out before class begins? Can anyone think the last time that any acmi carrier actually filled a class for new hires?

Really? Look around. Omni, Western Global, Atlas, Kalitta. I donít know about ATI. Been a steady stream of applicants taking interview sim rides down in MIA for Western Global this week.

JohnBurke
07-24-2018, 07:01 AM
Can anyone think the last time that any acmi carrier actually filled a class for new hires?

Yes, I can. Quite a few, recently.

Stimpy the Kat
07-24-2018, 12:14 PM
Although an issue, filling a Class is the minor one..Retention, over the next few years, is going to be the major factor.

Stimpson

303flyboy
07-24-2018, 12:56 PM
How many 151s are left ?

Industry Strnd
07-24-2018, 05:30 PM
How many 151s are left ?

About less than half. It only takes about 3 days in ground school to see that ACMI is a joke and not a real airline. Full of management that never learned how to work with or appricate employees. It's always threats of your career. Even the Regionals stopped that years ago! Nothing to see here!

johnny150
07-24-2018, 05:51 PM
Currently the regionals are a far better place to be the ABX.


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Jurassic Jet
07-24-2018, 05:59 PM
Currently the regionals are a far better place to be the ABX.

You misspelled Home Depot.

atpcliff
07-24-2018, 11:42 PM
Atlas and Southern are not filling their classes....not even close.

jettime10
07-26-2018, 06:31 PM
I have one soon...any gouge out there?
And after all the reading here...do I even bother.

woog315
07-26-2018, 07:13 PM
I have one soon...any gouge out there?
And after all the reading here...do I even bother.

Unless you are on the street and ABX is your only option, do not go to ABX.

And here is the gouge: don't smell like cat **** and speak at least some English, you're hired.

Reactivity
07-26-2018, 07:17 PM
I have one soon...any gouge out there?
And after all the reading here...do I even bother.

Airline interviews are all the same. If you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. The only variations are those like FedEx and Southwest that do a CRM exercise also.

Shabby
07-26-2018, 07:48 PM
Unless you are on the street and ABX is your only option, do not go to ABX.

And here is the gouge: don't smell like cat **** and speak at least some English, you're hired.

^^that^^ 😂

JetRage
07-27-2018, 09:55 AM
^^that^^ 😂

Come get you some of that $40k!

Pretax, of course

Industry Strnd
07-28-2018, 05:59 AM
Come get you some of that $40k!

Pretax, of course

No way ...closer to $44k first year when you add in the pay for being required to work on your days off!

TheBrightside
07-30-2018, 01:09 PM
Lets not forget the amazing schedules you'll get to experience. How do you feel about working a 13 hours, then having to go to an outstation, over night for 12, fly the next day for 15, then rest for 11 when you get back to fly back to base all while on the back side of the clock. The schedules are hellish and getting worse by the day. If you have any sense you'll stay out of this business and go to a passenger carrier with 117.

Reactivity
07-31-2018, 07:54 PM
How many 151s are left ?

There were 75 151s on the seniority list as of 1/31/17. 47 of those remain as of 7/31/18. (I have no way of knowing how many might have left between 5/9/16 and 1/31/17, but it likely wasn't many, if any at all, since, relatively speaking, the general outlook was more optimistic at that point.) There are an additional 19 newer 151s who remain out of a very-difficult-to-quantify original number since some were hired and never showed, and others left within a few days to a few months.

Kougarok
07-31-2018, 08:27 PM
There were 75 151s on the seniority list as of 1/31/17. 47 of those remain as of 7/31/18. (I have no way of knowing how many might have left between 5/9/16 and 1/31/17, but it likely wasn't many, if any at all, since, relatively speaking, the general outlook was more optimistic at that point.) There are an additional 19 newer 151s who remain out of a very-difficult-to-quantify original number since some were hired and never showed, and others left within a few days to a few months.

Almost all of them I talk to have shotgunned their resumes out. Theyíll take the first reasonably stable job they can find. Iíve heard Spirit mentioned several times.

Industry Strnd
08-01-2018, 12:21 AM
Almost all of them I talk to have shotgunned their resumes out. Theyíll take the first reasonably stable job they can find. Iíve heard Spirit mentioned several times.

Yeah these backside of the clock trips get old and make you old real fast. Spirit, Jet Blue, hiring in droves have better pay, rigs, day flying, much better retirement! I'm out too as soon as they call. Few going 91 coprorate in September.

AMC190
08-01-2018, 02:50 AM
I left Abx after 6 months of doh, to b6! fwiw!
Was planning on staying longer, something better came up !

Hang10
08-05-2018, 12:05 PM
Almost anything is better! Evan unemployment might be! What a poop hole!

Jurassic Jet
08-05-2018, 12:22 PM
I left Abx after 6 months of doh, to b6! fwiw!
Was planning on staying longer, something better came up !


That could literally mean a front desk clerk job at a Motel 6 in Dearbornistan. :o

nitefr8dog
08-05-2018, 06:56 PM
That could literally mean a front desk clerk job at a Motel 6 in Dearbornistan. :o
Funny...and true!

Whitesnake
08-06-2018, 07:45 AM
Thanks to soaper and his tactics, 2 more have left. The current hiring doesnít even stem the tide.
He has cost ABX Air lots of money because of those he has driven away. Itís certainly an accurate reflection of his talents.

He has no long term interest in the company anyway.
Why would he since he is only here on a 3 year contract ?

C7fr8dog
08-06-2018, 12:48 PM
Total 767s-24
10-DHL
6-AMZ
1-SAS
1-AeroMex
1-CRAF
3-Spare
2-Heavy Check

Last news is SAS done after September and CRAF being negotiated.

goinaround
08-06-2018, 03:10 PM
Thanks to soaper and his tactics, 2 more have left. The current hiring doesnít even stem the tide.
He has cost ABX Air lots of money because of those he has driven away. Itís certainly an accurate reflection of his talents.

He has no long term interest in the company anyway.
Why would he since he is only here on a 3 year contract ?

Count me among the two. It wouldn't matter if they ever sign a contract....and it eclipses FDX.....I'm very pleased with my decision. The collective mood/attitude/work environment at ABX just pulls you down. I'll miss most of the people. Most of the APC posters are not representative of the pleasant people who are trapped in that mess.

Kougarok
08-06-2018, 05:26 PM
Count me among the two. It wouldn't matter if they ever sign a contract....and it eclipses FDX.....I'm very pleased with my decision. The collective mood/attitude/work environment at ABX just pulls you down. I'll miss most of the people. Most of the APC posters are not representative of the pleasant people who are trapped in that mess.

Ahh come on man I am mister mellow! Good luck to you!

mukalel
08-06-2018, 06:28 PM
Wonder who the magic 7 that are supposed to leave in september..

ACMItrash
11-25-2018, 04:04 PM
^^^^^^and these are the ďhost of reasonsĒ that I didnít mention in my earlier post.....decline the offer and look elsewhere!!

Just a reminder

nitefr8dog
11-26-2018, 02:54 AM
Just a reminder
You have anything new?

crazycoconut
11-26-2018, 04:25 PM
Total 767s-24
10-DHL
6-AMZ
1-SAS
1-AeroMex
1-CRAF
3-Spare
2-Heavy Check

Last news is SAS done after September and CRAF being negotiated.

I heard from a guy at LAX that ABX wants to get rid of the AeroMex stuff. Have you heard that?

Reactivity
11-26-2018, 04:29 PM
I heard from a guy at LAX that ABX wants to get rid of the AeroMex stuff. Have you heard that?

Last I heard, ABX had signed a new contract with AeroMex, so that seems unlikely.

nitefr8dog
11-26-2018, 05:04 PM
I heard from a guy at LAX that ABX wants to get rid of the AeroMex stuff. Have you heard that?

Just signed a yr contract.

point432
11-26-2018, 07:00 PM
Just signed a yr contract.



Heard it was 5 yrs but now we want to back out of the deal for whatever reason. Shutting it down ASAP.


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nitefr8dog
11-27-2018, 04:16 AM
Heard it was 5 yrs but now we want to back out of the deal for whatever reason. Shutting it down ASAP.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 1 yr came from Maloney's monthly cheer up letter last month. Who knows maybe they want the airframe for something else.

point432
11-27-2018, 05:06 AM
The 1 yr came from Maloney's monthly cheer up letter last month. Who knows maybe they want the airframe for something else.



Ah thats right. I remember read that now. Sometimes it all just looks like spam emails that I keep getting.

I heard the 5 year thing from someone else, but it was a good source. Maybe we told them 5 and like you said, ABX will drop it... and give it to ATI. Iím sure NAC is up for it too [emoji23]


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ACMItrash
11-27-2018, 07:04 AM
Typical contract carrier. Sad state this ACMI world. So many guys have been furloughed throughout their career, served at multiple carriers,constant wipsaw, but yet some still think Amazon will change all that. Guess what they haven't and nothing on the horizon says it will change. Planes continue to leave.

Rolloutflare
11-27-2018, 07:49 AM
There is NO future airline operated by Amazon. It is not their business model, so guessing which airline is to be the chosen one is just crushing grapes. And IF there was the possibility of that one airline, what makes anyone think it would have an awesome pilot contract?

Dogs in animal control is what ACMI is. Some are lucky to get out, some are not.

Airplaneflyer11
11-27-2018, 01:43 PM
I heard from a guy at LAX that ABX wants to get rid of the AeroMex stuff. Have you heard that?

Sudsy said we will staff the airline and position ourselves for DHL/ Amazon back when he was still allowed in ground school visits. I had heard we can anticipate the loss of AeroMex this coming year and of course I would see no reason to handle the CRAF flying any longer since that can be handled by the other two ATSG carriers. Just what I heard and my two cents.

As a side note...In light of this it would make perfect sense for ABX to acquire and ACMI pilot contract (Maybe around 2030?) as we will only be handling "Express" customers :confused::confused::confused:

ACMItrash
12-02-2018, 07:23 AM
Wonder how many will show for interviews? With some many places with clear growth plans, double the 1st yr pay, better retirement and work rules...cant see too many lining up at the door.

ABX. ..no contract in sight
No upgrades in over a year and none planned
No growth plans
Management that denis trades
Reserve with no rules
Save yourself the agony

nitefr8dog
12-02-2018, 07:40 AM
Wonder how many will show for interviews? With some many places with clear growth plans, double the 1st yr pay, better retirement and work rules...cant see too many lining up at the door.

ABX. ..no contract in sight
No upgrades in over a year and none planned
No growth plans
Management that denis trades
Reserve with no rules
Save yourself the agony
Seems like you have said all of this 40 times before...anything new?

C7fr8dog
12-02-2018, 11:20 AM
Nothing new. Still shrinking/sinking. Still in the same direction. It takes change to make a change. Like the motion laws of physics. Less planes, less lines, less pilots. What do you expect ??

nitefr8dog
12-02-2018, 03:39 PM
Nothing new. Still shrinking/sinking. Still in the same direction. It takes change to make a change. Like the motion laws of physics. Less planes, less lines, less pilots. What do you expect ??
Maybe he could stop repeating himself.....like a whinny 13 yr old? Until or if ABX ever gets a new contract anyone who can read the over and over repeated dribble knows it's a dead end.
What do you expect?

ACMItrash
12-03-2018, 05:48 AM
Maybe he could stop repeating himself.....like a whinny 13 yr old? Until or if ABX ever gets a new contract anyone who can read the over and over repeated dribble knows it's a dead end.
What do you expect?

Dilly dilly...why do they run commercials 1000 times?

Riverside
12-03-2018, 06:52 AM
Dilly dilly...why do they run commercials 1000 times?

Those commercials are more entertaining to watch.

nitefr8dog
12-03-2018, 11:25 AM
Dilly dilly...why do they run commercials 1000 times?
Dilly dilly ....wow how old are you? That was funny once.
They run commercials 1000 times so people turn the channel before they ever see what the subject is about.
After you post the same nausim 2 or 3 times long fore you post the same crap 50 times...its just white noise and before anybody reads it they look elsewhere out of boredom.

ACMItrash
12-03-2018, 12:07 PM
Dilly dilly ....wow how old are you? That was funny once.
They run commercials 1000 times so people turn the channel before they ever see what the subject is about.
After you post the same nausim 2 or 3 times long fore you post the same crap 50 times...its just white noise and before anybody reads it they look elsewhere out of boredom.
Feel free to block my posts if you don't like them. Maybe you should spend more time with management sucking up than trolling message boards if you don't like reading what's posted.

MarkThyme
12-03-2018, 12:16 PM
Maybe you should spend more time with management sucking up than trolling message boards if you don't like reading what's posted.

Feel free to take your own advice.

nitefr8dog
12-03-2018, 12:37 PM
Feel free to take your own advice.
^^^this^^^

nitefr8dog
12-03-2018, 12:40 PM
Feel free to block my posts if you don't like them. Maybe you should spend more time with management sucking up than trolling message boards if you don't like reading what's posted.
I did not know you where posting...its more like a kindergartener scribbling with a crayon....

ACMItrash
12-05-2018, 05:37 PM
I did not know you where posting...its more like a kindergartener scribbling with a crayon....

2 pilots in the survey said the trusted management. ..2 pilots on here defendin management lol prb not even pilots management trolls trying hard to ruin someone's career by trying to talk them I'm to joining the mess called acmi flying.

Riverside
12-05-2018, 05:54 PM
2 pilots in the survey said the trusted management. ..2 pilots on here defendin management lol prb not even pilots management trolls trying hard to ruin someone's career by trying to talk them I'm to joining the mess called acmi flying.

Wow. Your writing is painful to read.

WhipWhitaker
12-05-2018, 06:00 PM
Wow. Your writing is painful to read.

User name checks out

MarkThyme
12-05-2018, 09:40 PM
2 pilots in the survey said the trusted management. ..2 pilots on here defendin management lol prb not even pilots management trolls trying hard to ruin someone's career by trying to talk them I'm to joining the mess called acmi flying.

Again with the stupid "management troll" trope. Pretty sure I addressed that one almost two weeks ago. Maybe in a different thread. I can't remember. You're all over the place.

But this brings up another point. Which one am I - a check airman, or a management troll? Between multiple posts in various threads on different occasions, you have at one time or another accused me of being both. So which is it?

nitefr8dog
12-06-2018, 03:01 AM
2 pilots in the survey said the trusted management. ..2 pilots on here defendin management lol prb not even pilots management trolls trying hard to ruin someone's career by trying to talk them I'm to joining the mess called acmi flying.
You could not honestly believe that anybody trying to make an informed decision about a career choice.. would use an APC forum board and base it on the rants of a madhatter like yourself do you. It's just pure entertainment at this point...for management also.

JetRage
12-14-2018, 09:54 AM
If Soaper is planning to send out furlough notices, I wish he would hurry up and do it. I would rather leave with some severance. Removing lines of flying 1 at a time has a 0% chance of getting the ABX pilots to accept a bad contract. There is no interest in a cheap contract from any pilot at ABX.

sherpster
12-14-2018, 10:02 AM
Boiling a frog

JetRage
12-14-2018, 10:39 AM
Now that almost half the First Officers on the list are sitting reserve in CVG, why does ATSG continue to pay our salaries? Why not furlough? Either sign a contract or furlough us so we can leave with severance. What ever you do, do it quickly.

MarkThyme
12-14-2018, 12:15 PM
Now that almost half the First Officers on the list are sitting reserve in CVG, why does ATSG continue to pay our salaries? Why not furlough? Either sign a contract or furlough us so we can leave with severance. What ever you do, do it quickly.

They're still interviewing. There is something going on that they're not telling us about.

Whether that's true or not, though, I can't quite figure out why you seem to be objecting to being paid with benefits and remaining current while you look for another job at your leisure.

JetRage
12-14-2018, 12:42 PM
Call me old fashioned, but I didn't become an airline pilot so I could stare at a wall in Cincinnati for months at a time.

MarkThyme
12-14-2018, 04:50 PM
Call me old fashioned, but I didn't become an airline pilot so I could stare at a wall in Cincinnati for months at a time.

All the more time for you to work on finding your next job while you continue collecting a paycheck with benefits.

No excuses.

I hear you can get six figures as a direct entry captain at a regional.

motorclutch
12-15-2018, 04:22 AM
My advice....run away very fast. You might get your furlough wish in January.

nitefr8dog
12-15-2018, 07:49 AM
My advice....run away very fast. You might get your furlough wish in January.
Agree with MT on this one.....at 120k with benefits added in it sounds like a great position to be in while you sort thru all the job offers from your dream airlines.

Makinitup
12-16-2018, 05:17 AM
If Soaper is planning to send out furlough notices, I wish he would hurry up and do it. I would rather leave with some severance.

I wouldnít stick around waiting for any payout as there wonít be any severance from ABX. In 2009 DHL paid for the severance package after negotiations with the union since it was their fault for the downturn and resulting layoffs.

EndOfTimes
12-16-2018, 07:57 AM
Perhaps what JetRage is referring to as severance is the 45 days of pay that Article 7 of the CBA provides in the event of a furlough.

nitefr8dog
12-16-2018, 11:27 AM
I wouldnít stick around waiting for any payout as there wonít be any severance from ABX. In 2009 DHL paid for the severance package after negotiations with the union since it was their fault for the downturn and resulting layoffs.
The don't have a choice...you would get paid. Not going to happen anyway. The sky is not falling.

Bungalow
12-16-2018, 12:27 PM
Oh....Itís falling.

Makinitup
12-16-2018, 03:53 PM
The don't have a choice...you would get paid. Not going to happen anyway. The sky is not falling.

I never really considered the 45 days of pay in section 7 as severance since its not enough to cover much and will take longer than that to get on elsewhere making a salary again. Especially if your wishing to be furloughed for Christmas and still here you must not be having much luck finding anything else. Rage is much better off sitting R1 sending out resumes while being paid than sitting at home waiting for someone to call and those last three checks to arrive.
I agree with you though, the sky is not falling.

nitefr8dog
12-17-2018, 05:48 AM
I never really considered the 45 days of pay in section 7 as severance since its not enough to cover much and will take longer than that to get on elsewhere making a salary again. Especially if your wishing to be furloughed for Christmas and still here you must not be having much luck finding anything else. Rage is much better off sitting R1 sending out resumes while being paid than sitting at home waiting for someone to call and those last three checks to arrive.
I agree with you though, the sky is not falling.
My point...see #144

741waskipper
12-17-2018, 09:31 AM
I posted these thoughts in reply to a potential new hire's questions back in July. They are still valid today!
************************************************** *****

I had not posted much at all about ABX Air during my two year tenure. And, I wanted to wait for a while to let any emotion drain out before commenting.
The OP asked for cogent thoughts on if he should accept a position with ABX Air. My direct reply? NO! It is not worth the harassment and attack on your morale, and lifestyle!
I was 25 years with an ACMI carrier, so this is not my first trip to the rodeo with companies such as ABX Air. Hopefully, that allows me to comment with some understanding.
Most of it has been covered in previous posts. So, I will not belabor the points. ABX got a new V.P. of Operations about a year ago. While my opinion always remained guarded, it seemed as if he really did want to heal the much salted wounds and hopefully still does. IMHO, he is being constrained by Soaper, and Hete as to what he can and cannot do. When he came to ABX, he took time to come to the Hub and spent his nights talking to the pilot group, both junior and senior. I told him this...In my 25+ years of service in ACMI, ABX Air is without doubt the most toxic, poisoned corporate environment that I had experienced. I was the NG, and expected to be treated as such. However, it was shocking to me to witness the disdain that the personnel in the Crystal Tower at ILN held for the pilot group as a whole. Flt Ops management was waiting with glee for the slightest misstep by a pilot giving them reason to mete out discipline
To any aviator needing to find a new gig, I would tell them to pass on ABX Air at all cost. It is simply not worth the heartache when you could focus your efforts on other opportunities. Two years at ABX Air was enough to make me abandon 27 years of 121 ACMI for a Pt. 91 gig. I wish the best for all the ABX crewmembers. But, my tea leaves were telling me that it is not a place that one wants to occupy the lower part of the seniority list.
It is said that one should always end on a positive, and that I will. The legacy Airborne pilots could not have been a better group to work with. Knowledgable, professional (I hate that term), and for the 99% great to spend the grueling hours on the flight deck and layovers with. Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for.

nitefr8dog
12-17-2018, 12:05 PM
Oh....Itís falling.
Then get under the table...fast!

GeelErmo
12-17-2018, 01:16 PM
Then get under the table...fast!

Haha, Good one! Or just retire and enjoy ur time left.

nitefr8dog
12-17-2018, 05:29 PM
Haha, Good one! Or just retire and enjoy ur time left.
It's too much fun!

Bungalow
12-17-2018, 06:05 PM
Haha, Good one! Or just retire and enjoy ur time left.

Done. And doing it.

motorclutch
12-17-2018, 08:12 PM
741 hit it square on the head. Greedy Hete showed his true colors about ten years ago. His lies became bolder as he restructured ATSG. Business Insider has a detailed article in cue which will explain all. Stay tuned.

ACMItrash
12-22-2018, 01:03 AM
I posted these thoughts in reply to a potential new hire's questions back in July. They are still valid today!
************************************************** *****

I had not posted much at all about ABX Air during my two year tenure. And, I wanted to wait for a while to let any emotion drain out before commenting.
The OP asked for cogent thoughts on if he should accept a position with ABX Air. My direct reply? NO! It is not worth the harassment and attack on your morale, and lifestyle!
I was 25 years with an ACMI carrier, so this is not my first trip to the rodeo with companies such as ABX Air. Hopefully, that allows me to comment with some understanding.
Most of it has been covered in previous posts. So, I will not belabor the points. ABX got a new V.P. of Operations about a year ago. While my opinion always remained guarded, it seemed as if he really did want to heal the much salted wounds and hopefully still does. IMHO, he is being constrained by Soaper, and Hete as to what he can and cannot do. When he came to ABX, he took time to come to the Hub and spent his nights talking to the pilot group, both junior and senior. I told him this...In my 25+ years of service in ACMI, ABX Air is without doubt the most toxic, poisoned corporate environment that I had experienced. I was the NG, and expected to be treated as such. However, it was shocking to me to witness the disdain that the personnel in the Crystal Tower at ILN held for the pilot group as a whole. Flt Ops management was waiting with glee for the slightest misstep by a pilot giving them reason to mete out discipline
To any aviator needing to find a new gig, I would tell them to pass on ABX Air at all cost. It is simply not worth the heartache when you could focus your efforts on other opportunities. Two years at ABX Air was enough to make me abandon 27 years of 121 ACMI for a Pt. 91 gig. I wish the best for all the ABX crewmembers. But, my tea leaves were telling me that it is not a place that one wants to occupy the lower part of the seniority list.
It is said that one should always end on a positive, and that I will. The legacy Airborne pilots could not have been a better group to work with. Knowledgable, professional (I hate that term), and for the 99% great to spend the grueling hours on the flight deck and layovers with. Also, the check airmen, and support staff in the training dept. are as good as one could possibly ask for.

How many quit or got fired this week? Heard one just went awol and nobody knows where he went. Called in sick and never came back. Maybe someday they might pay enough where people actually care if they work for abx.

nitefr8dog
12-22-2018, 03:54 AM
How many quit or got fired this week? Heard one just went awol and nobody knows where he went. Called in sick and never came back. Maybe someday they might pay enough where people actually care if they work for abx.
Heard from a reliable source they ALL quit! Including new hires back to 2016! Everyone! Boy that will teach em huh?

point432
12-22-2018, 06:36 AM
How many quit or got fired this week? Heard one just went awol and nobody knows where he went. Called in sick and never came back. Maybe someday they might pay enough where people actually care if they work for abx.



Probably a handful. But these new guys are coming on property, taking one good look at reserve, and just become done. Canít say they werenít warned. But this company needs some major adjustments to reserve life if they want to keep everyone on reserve. Next month, people that have almost always have been line holders are now perhaps going to be on reserve indefinitely. Look at real companies. People are on reserve for maybe 6 months and that is the end of their sentence.

Bldg 6 next month will become...well look at homeless shelters and refugee camps, that should give you an idea.


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C7fr8dog
12-23-2018, 10:48 AM
If any of you really look at this its simply just like what Lorenzo did with Eastern in the 80's.
He formed a parent company ATSG. Then subsidiaries....CAM, AMES, ATI, ABX.
Now CAM leases to everyone and the profits come from the top. He whipsaws everyone against each other to create labor conflict. He has one airline that will cross a picket line.
With Amazon now wanting to grow he plays everyone against each other ..... or tries to anyway.
In the latest 20 AA aircraft acquisition it states that OMNI will get aircraft...hmmmm I wonder if now ATI can see whats happening to them as well?
Bottom line.....ABX looks like Eastern and we all know how that worked out....

motorclutch
12-23-2018, 11:25 AM
ATI scabs are too stupid to know they are being played. Scab 1 and 2 keep the flock in line.

nitefr8dog
12-23-2018, 03:04 PM
If any of you really look at this its simply just like what Lorenzo did with Eastern in the 80's.
He formed a parent company ATSG. Then subsidiaries....CAM, AMES, ATI, ABX.
Now CAM leases to everyone and the profits come from the top. He whipsaws everyone against each other to create labor conflict. He has one airline that will cross a picket line.
With Amazon now wanting to grow he plays everyone against each other ..... or tries to anyway.
In the latest 20 AA aircraft acquisition it states that OMNI will get aircraft...hmmmm I wonder if now ATI can see whats happening to them as well?
Bottom line.....ABX looks like Eastern and we all know how that worked out....
Doesn't really "state that" says MAY choose to refurbish one or two and lease them to Omni....just saying.

At this point our best option would be, to give back scope, great disability ins., scheduling rules, higher percentage match, no strike clause....take 10 bucks an hour pay under the other competitors and take it all and just race our way to the bottom. DHL and AMZ would line up to pull business from the rest.

nitefr8dog
12-23-2018, 03:17 PM
ATI scabs are too stupid to know they are being played. Scab 1 and 2 keep the flock in line.
A little late...they would have had to fix that before they signed the last contract.

ACMItrash
12-23-2018, 04:33 PM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2730434]Doesn't really "state that" says MAY choose to refurbish one or two and lease them to Omni....just saying.

At this point our best option would be, to give back scope, great disability ins., scheduling rules, higher percentage match, no strike clause....take 10 bucks an hour pay under the other competitors and take it all and just race our way to the bottom. DHL and AMZ would line up to pull business from the rest.[/QUOT

Yeah and you're Soapers little toy messenger. No thanks

nitefr8dog
12-23-2018, 05:15 PM
[QUOTE=nitefr8dog;2730434]Doesn't really "state that" says MAY choose to refurbish one or two and lease them to Omni....just saying.

At this point our best option would be, to give back scope, great disability ins., scheduling rules, higher percentage match, no strike clause....take 10 bucks an hour pay under the other competitors and take it all and just race our way to the bottom. DHL and AMZ would line up to pull business from the rest.[/QUOT

Yeah and you're Soapers little toy messenger. No thanks
You really are clueless aren't you?

ACMItrash
12-23-2018, 06:10 PM
[QUOTE=ACMItrash;2730476]
You really are clueless aren't you?

No I'd say you are. Nothing like that will ever pass. Give back scope? Give back rules. Yeah glad youre not a pilot with a vote.

MarkThyme
12-23-2018, 06:36 PM
No I'd say you are. Nothing like that will ever pass. Give back scope? Give back rules. Yeah glad youre not a pilot with a vote.

You can't possibly believe he was being serious.

nitefr8dog
12-24-2018, 04:02 AM
You can't possibly believe he was being serious.
Like I said....he is clueless!

ACMItrash
03-12-2019, 06:22 AM
Anything change since this thread was started?

point432
03-12-2019, 06:34 AM
Anything change since this thread was started?



They all left just like our attrition


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JustOvIt
03-12-2019, 06:43 AM
One has quit after day three.

point432
03-12-2019, 06:46 AM
One has quit after day three.



Day 3? So we are down to 2 out of the 4 that started. I know the ďexperimentĒ quit day 1.


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JustOvIt
03-12-2019, 06:48 AM
That I have no knowledge about

point432
03-12-2019, 06:55 AM
That I have no knowledge about



Seems like this having 4-6 in a class just does nothing. Immediately they can plan on people not showing up, quitting after a few days or washing out. They probably had their hopes up for something like Kalitta or Atlas walking in day 1.


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JustOvIt
03-16-2019, 07:53 PM
So management had a meeting with senior advisors, our POI and check airmen this past week to share that Abx is hiring and upgrading !
Woo hoo....

What a joke they think they can hire 50 pilots in the next 5 months and upgrade 8-12 Captains... dispatchers have to ask a supervisor for help.. scheduler's call you in crew rest and pretend oh gosh I'm sorry ...payroll can't pay your correctly....they have a relic computer crew trac system ...Bid awards change multiple times, so don't book any engagement's right away, better wait for revision number 2 to come out two days later.... Today the crew trac system has been out all day??? They forgot to feed the rabbits that run the servers!

ATSG is a joke ! Our POI in attendance stated "the amount of complaints from pilots about the maintenance of airplanes and adherence to any guidelines at ABX in recents months has never been higher"

New flying in ILN this summer??!!!! HELLO wake up JH you're six months behind!

So please ...please come to ABX, fly our well maintained airplanes. Our deferred items have been the lowest in history... that's mgm't claim. Yet read the previous statement's again.

ATSG Board needs to get their HEAD our of their a....

As another post stated awhile ago " RUN FOREST RUN"

Makinitup
03-16-2019, 08:13 PM
So management had a meeting with senior advisors, our POI and check airmen this past week to share that Abx is hiring and upgrading !
Woo hoo....

What a joke they think they can hire 50 pilots in the next 5 months and upgrade 8-12 Captains... dispatchers have to ask a supervisor for help.. scheduler's call you in crew rest and pretend oh gosh I'm sorry ...payroll can't pay your correctly....they have a relic computer crew trac system ...Bid awards change multiple times, so don't book any engagement's right away, better wait for revision number 2 to come out two days later.... Today the crew trac system has been out all day??? They forgot to feed the rabbits that run the servers!

ATSG is a joke ! Our POI in attendance stated "the amount of complaints from pilots about the maintenance of airplanes and adherence to any guidelines at ABX in recents months has never been higher"

New flying in ILN this summer??!!!! HELLO wake up JH you're six months behind!

So please ...please come to ABX, fly our well maintained airplanes. Our deferred items have been the lowest in history... that's mgm't claim. Yet read the previous statement's again.

ATSG Board needs to get their HEAD our of their a....

As another post stated awhile ago " RUN FOREST RUN"

You get turned down for a check airman position again?

johnny150
03-17-2019, 05:24 AM
For the people thinking of coming to ABX, itís been 1536 days since our CBA has been amendable (management has no desire to negotiate with the union), the latest upgrade was a 1996 hire... once hired you will be on reserve forever. Our scheduling programs/software is out of the mid 90ís, to complete your monthly bid one must fill out a sheet of paper and send it to scheduling, to check your schedule you must log on to a Remote Desktop. If one is forced to work overtime, it is a huge fight and could take months to revive bonus pay. If anyone has questions before the come to ABX feel free to PM me.


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Jurassic Jet
03-17-2019, 06:38 AM
For the people thinking of coming to ABX, .... the latest upgrade was a 1996 hire...

As a side note, he upgraded in February of 2017 and has been the bottom guy ever since. Over two years now with no upgrades at this place.

nitefr8dog
03-17-2019, 07:52 AM
For the people thinking of coming to ABX, itís been 1536 days since our CBA has been amendable (management has no desire to negotiate with the union), the latest upgrade was a 1996 hire... once hired you will be on reserve forever. Our scheduling programs/software is out of the mid 90ís, to complete your monthly bid one must fill out a sheet of paper and send it to scheduling, to check your schedule you must log on to a Remote Desktop. If one is forced to work overtime, it is a huge fight and could take months to revive bonus pay. If anyone has questions before the come to ABX feel free to PM me.


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On another side note...
I don't use a remote desktop at all....just the Flight Web pg works fine. Also 8 upgrades and 24 new hires planned. All really to cover some of the attrition.

johnny150
03-17-2019, 09:15 AM
On another side note...

I don't use a remote desktop at all....just the Flight Web pg works fine. Also 8 upgrades and 24 new hires planned. All really to cover some of the attrition.



Lol Flight web that looks like it came out of a teletype from the 1940ís...


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nitefr8dog
03-17-2019, 12:44 PM
Lol Flight web that looks like it came out of a teletype from the 1940ís...


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Lol
Whatever....it works. And I don't have to use a remote desktop. The end results are the same. You are guys trying to make things sound difficult that are not. Well.... for some they are not...

Hang10
03-19-2019, 06:45 AM
ABX new motto- Canít make chicken salad out of chicken ****! Biggest chicken **** job in Aviation! Run!

tiredofjrm
03-19-2019, 01:39 PM
A colleague of mine applied for FMLA when he first got hired (2016) due to his sonís leukemia. The oncologist filled out all the paperwork for him. It was still turned down by HR. Almost everyone here who has put in for FMLA to help a family member has been turned down.
He then last year fell down and broke his back at work. The company is self insured and denied his workers comp claim. Heís now spent 9 months and thousands of dollars in legal fees and expert testimony. This place is toxic. Itís constantly your fault. Always guilty till proven innocent. This place puts a whole new meaning to ďthe beatings will continue till moral improvesĒ.
The pay sucks. You will be on reserve forever. Junior manning will start back up soon. This means you wonít have any days off. They can JRM you forever.

DO NOT COME HERE! This is the worst of all the ACMI companies out there.

flyfranz
03-19-2019, 01:49 PM
For those who donít know. Tired is talking about me.

I can not recommend this place to anyone. If you have options, then donít come here.

Lockheed
03-19-2019, 02:44 PM
A colleague of mine applied for FMLA when he first got hired (2016) due to his sonís leukemia. The oncologist filled out all the paperwork for him. It was still turned down by HR. Almost everyone here who has put in for FMLA to help a family member has been turned down.
He then last year fell down and broke his back at work. The company is self insured and denied his workers comp claim. Heís now spent 9 months and thousands of dollars in legal fees and expert testimony. This place is toxic. Itís constantly your fault. Always guilty till proven innocent. This place puts a whole new meaning to ďthe beatings will continue till moral improvesĒ.
The pay sucks. You will be on reserve forever. Junior manning will start back up soon. This means you wonít have any days off. They can JRM you forever.

DO NOT COME HERE! This is the worst of all the ACMI companies out there.

What you have related is absolutely horrendous
I know starting over is tough for everyone
I'm 61 and have had a total of 3 employers in my carrier
not because they were all great jobs - I just hated the thought of moving


late last year K4 found out that ASA pilots wanted a change
we hired over 100 asa guys

if any of you abex guys want to improve your lot in life please apply to K4

you will be welcomed

I can assure you that the scenario you describe in your post would never happen here - not in a million years - you apply for fmla - its granted - that day - every time

talk to our guys in the hub - don't be afraid of change - the grass can be greener, really

goodspeed

Lockheed
03-19-2019, 03:53 PM
Godspeed

sorry

MarkThyme
03-19-2019, 07:39 PM
Junior manning will start back up soon. This means you wonít have any days off. They can JRM you forever.


1. Encourage pilots to avoid ABX because you hate it there.
2. Kvetch about junior manning.

Choose one. You don't get to actively work against recruiting and hiring while simultaneously complaining about junior manning because the company is unable to bring staffing up to the level required by the additional flying that is coming your way.

Fit4Doody
03-20-2019, 03:56 AM
1. Encourage pilots to avoid ABX because you hate it there.
2. Kvetch about junior manning.

Choose one. You don't get to actively work against recruiting and hiring while simultaneously complaining about junior manning because the company is unable to bring staffing up to the level required by the additional flying that is coming your way.

Why not? Heís warning people about what itís like. I for one am grateful to hear feedback about what the reality is. Heís not responsible for hiring/recruiting. The company is. Unlike HR, heís being truthful.

Braniff DC8
03-21-2019, 12:08 PM
I'm just asking. What does time to Captain realistically look like now? Thank you. Yes, I know ABX is a terrible company and don't do it.

Grundt
03-21-2019, 12:18 PM
I'm just asking. What does time to Captain realistically look like now? Thank you. Yes, I know ABX is a terrible company and don't do it.

Very difficult to say. Current junior captain is 6/9/1996 hire...almost 23 years. Company recently said they'd have some upgrades this summer, but it's been 2 years since our last upgrade. We've got attrition in both seats, but our loss of flying has kept up with attrition. The ILN sort for Amazon will give us a little more flying (no additional aircraft, though), but I don't see that substantially changing much.

ACMItrash
03-21-2019, 12:27 PM
Very difficult to say. Current junior captain is 6/9/1996 hire...almost 23 years. Company recently said they'd have some upgrades this summer, but it's been 2 years since our last upgrade. We've got attrition in both seats, but our loss of flying has kept up with attrition. The ILN sort for Amazon will give us a little more flying (no additional aircraft, though), but I don't see that substantially changing much.
Over 100 fos now. There are no new airplanes scheduled. They say maybe 8 upgrades in 2019. The math says if you get hired now maybe 7 -10 years.

forrealyall
03-21-2019, 01:08 PM
ABX new motto- Canít make chicken salad out of chicken ****! Biggest chicken **** job in Aviation! Run!

You've been to the ILN cafeteria, no?

That is the first place I've ever heard of a dish called "pink rice".

Makinitup
03-21-2019, 03:31 PM
You've been to the ILN cafeteria, no?

That is the first place I've ever heard of a dish called "pink rice".

Cafeteria is run by the same group at DHL in CVG not ATSG so donít see the connection to ABX.

MarkThyme
03-21-2019, 05:15 PM
I'm just asking. What does time to Captain realistically look like now? Thank you. Yes, I know ABX is a terrible company and don't do it.

Captains (and FOs) are currently retiring at the rate of around one a month. Latest word is 8 to 12 upgrades (subtract one for the DO who wants to get out of the office and holds one of those captain spots) before the Amazon night sort starts in July. There are currently 45 FOs to go through before you get to the first relatively recent (i.e. 2016) hire. A number of those (I'd say 10 to 15 at a minimum) will not upgrade. There will likely continue to be some attrition of captains and FOs. How much is anybody's guess. You can apply your own assumptions and conditions and draw your own conclusions from there.

ACMItrash
03-21-2019, 06:01 PM
Street Captains at Envoy 110k 1st yr and an American seniority number with no interview at American when your number is called. Just sayin.

MarkThyme
03-21-2019, 06:21 PM
Street Captains at Envoy 110k 1st yr and an American seniority number with no interview at American when your number is called. Just sayin.

That sounds great!

But didja ever notice they don't say anything about second year pay? The assumption is that it only goes up after the first year, but I'm not sure that assumption is a good one.

I looked into it. $110k is the number put out by Envoy based on first-year captain pay, a $45k bonus, and ~$5k profit sharing. There is specific reference to a second-year retention bonus for FOs. No such mention of anything for captains. So second year, you're looking at $71/hour x 72 hours/month x 12 months + $5k profit sharing for a grand total of ~67k, increasing slowly from there while you wait the five to six years it currently takes for your number to come up for the flow to American.

But hey, those who need PIC time, who live in or near one of their four domiciles and those who are just plain short-sighted, it's a heck of a deal!

nitefr8dog
03-22-2019, 06:46 AM
Captains (and FOs) are currently retiring at the rate of around one a month. Latest word is 8 to 12 upgrades (subtract one for the DO who wants to get out of the office and holds one of those captain spots) before the Amazon night sort starts in July. There are currently 45 FOs to go through before you get to the first relatively recent (i.e. 2016) hire. A number of those (I'd say 10 to 15 at a minimum) will not upgrade. There will likely continue to be some attrition of captains and FOs. How much is anybody's guess. You can apply your own assumptions and conditions and draw your own conclusions from there.
DO is staying in..

ACMItrash
03-22-2019, 10:20 AM
That sounds great!

But didja ever notice they don't say anything about second year pay? The assumption is that it only goes up after the first year, but I'm not sure that assumption is a good one.

I looked into it. $110k is the number put out by Envoy based on first-year captain pay, a $45k bonus, and ~$5k profit sharing. There is specific reference to a second-year retention bonus for FOs. No such mention of anything for captains. So second year, you're looking at $71/hour x 72 hours/month x 12 months + $5k profit sharing for a grand total of ~67k, increasing slowly from there while you wait the five to six years it currently takes for your number to come up for the flow to American.

But hey, those who need PIC time, who live in or near one of their four domiciles and those who are just plain short-sighted, it's a heck of a deal!


Let's see guranteed PIC time, guran teed number on mainline flying new equipment. Or night freight with a carrier that has givenmo pilots a new contract in a decade flying planes at night with over 100000 hours on the airframe.

MarkThyme
03-22-2019, 09:51 PM
Let's see guranteed PIC time, guran teed number on mainline flying new equipment. Or night freight with a carrier that has givenmo pilots a new contract in a decade flying planes at night with over 100000 hours on the airframe.

When is your class date?

ACMItrash
03-25-2019, 01:14 PM
Was it mentioned on here ABX brain trust management has decided to just start denying trip trades?

What a quality of life! Go to a place with a management who cares about employees not a president at ATSG ABX who loves to furlough, break the contract and threaten pilots!

MarkThyme
03-26-2019, 08:22 AM
Was it mentioned on here ABX brain trust management has decided to just start denying trip trades?


It has been mentioned several times, but I've seen several trades happen, so....

I'm starting to think that there should be a prescription for adderall in your future.



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