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View Full Version : problems with stalls


diego5614
06-05-2018, 09:13 AM
Im not sure if this is the right section to be asking this but I do need help regarding power off dirty/clean configurations.

I seem to hold the heading correctly yet my aircraft wants to roll left or right on the recovery. I also find that I normally need to mash the left rudder on recovery to keep the aircraft from spinning out of control.

I would really appreciate any feedback or tips. I need to perfect these for the upcoming pre-solo check ride! thanks guys


CaptainYoda
06-05-2018, 10:18 AM
Im not sure if this is the right section to be asking this but I do need help regarding power off dirty/clean configurations.

I seem to hold the heading correctly yet my aircraft wants to roll left or right on the recovery. I also find that I normally need to mash the left rudder on recovery to keep the aircraft from spinning out of control.

I would really appreciate any feedback or tips. I need to perfect these for the upcoming pre-solo check ride! thanks guys

What airplane are you flying in?
That will make a difference on the responses.

During the recovery, keep the ailerons neutral.

The aircraft breaking to the left or right during the stall indicates an uncoordinated stall, so check your slip/skid indicator during the maneuver.

filejw
06-05-2018, 03:32 PM
""I also find that I normally need to mash the left rudder on recovery to keep the aircraft from spinning out of control."

In addition don't "mash"anything in an airplane !!!!! smooth responses in all events should be the norm.


JamesNoBrakes
06-06-2018, 06:27 AM
Im not sure if this is the right section to be asking this but I do need help regarding power off dirty/clean configurations.

I seem to hold the heading correctly yet my aircraft wants to roll left or right on the recovery. I also find that I normally need to mash the left rudder on recovery to keep the aircraft from spinning out of control.

I would really appreciate any feedback or tips. I need to perfect these for the upcoming pre-solo check ride! thanks guys

Problem I see is people chasing the ball all the time. They never "catch up". Yaw is what you are controlling. Pick a cloud or mountain in the distance and bring the nose up and use *enough* rudder to keep it (side of the glareshield) from yawing, never look at the ball. Just prior to the break, I've often found I need to back way off on the rudder to have the nose fall down straight.

I'd bet a nickle right before the break you start yawing in one direction. You can't hold constant rudder pressure, you have to adjust it based on what you see. The dynamics change as you get slower and then stall.

Practice climbing straight ahead and using enough right rudder to keep that mountain/cloud straight. Look at the wingtips and make sure they are the same distance above the horizon for bank, keep the side of the glareshield from sliding left (yaw). Don't use the ball for right rudder during a climb. Use it only to verify what you have already done is correct.

Most important, get the AOA down. Even if the wing drops, do not try to roll back, it's very tempting, but getting the AOA down you get the ailerons effective again and then on the way back up you can get back on heading, although I've found even when a wing drops, if you get the AOA back down immediately, your heading doesn't really change.

Adlerdriver
06-06-2018, 08:03 AM
If he's doing power off stalls, why does rudder need to be involved during the approach to stall?

JohnBurke
06-06-2018, 01:13 PM
Im not sure if this is the right section to be asking this but I do need help regarding power off dirty/clean configurations.

I seem to hold the heading correctly yet my aircraft wants to roll left or right on the recovery. I also find that I normally need to mash the left rudder on recovery to keep the aircraft from spinning out of control.

I would really appreciate any feedback or tips. I need to perfect these for the upcoming pre-solo check ride! thanks guys

Regardless of what you're flying, if you're having to carry a lot of rudder during a power off stall, chances are that you'e carrying power into the stall. There's no need to carry extra rudder when performing power off maneuvers; you'll find that rudder is used to offset thrust (spiraling slipstream, etc) when carrying power...not when power off.

Two things may be occurring; you're trying to use rudder the same way during a power-off stall as power on (and that's wrong), or you're carrying power into the stall, instead of approaching it at idle. The additional possibility is that you're rapidly applying power on the recovery from the stall and trying to make a rapid correction with the rudder.

Don't do any of those things.

Some instructors scare students with stalls, floating them in their seats, rapidly pushing forward on the controls, and making it seem as though there's a dire emergency in progress. There isn't. It's a stall. Reduce the angle of attack by 1/4 degree (let off an ounce or two of pressure on the controls) and you're flying out of the stall. It's not dramatic and doesn't have to happen hard and fast. Relax the back pressure on the yoke a bit, and you're flying, regardless of whether you apply power or not.

Practice recovering from a power off stall with, and without power. That is, approach the stall at idle, but after you break the stall by releasing a bit of back pressure, fly out of the stall without applying power. This shows that the airplane still flies and is still fully controllable without any need of power. Or rudder, or wild maneuvering or rapid pitch changes or anything else. Just a degree (or less) will do.

Try recovering from the power off stall with partial power, or by feeding full power in, but slowly. Note the way you feed rudder in, to compensate for the increasing power. Feed the power in a bit quicker; note the way you feed rudder to keep the airplane coordinated. Dont' be too fast with the rudder, don't jam the input in there, just feed the engine throttle, feed the rudder. The airplane isn't going anywhere.

Relax.

Flaps vs. no-flaps makes no difference. Just a different speed, but everything else works the same; reduce angle of attack just a bit, and you're flying again.

--on that note, you never stopped flying, but it only takes a very slight change in angle of attack to change the way the airflow over the wing occurs; in a stall there's a significant drag rise, airflow separation from the wing, and attendant loss of lift. Reduce a degree from the stalling angle of attack, and you have a rapid increase in lift, decrease in drag, and the airflow returns to normal over the wing.

Pilsung
06-06-2018, 01:41 PM
Try having your instructor guide you through power-off falling leaf stalls... this will yield you certainty on how to dynamically (and GENTLY) work the rudders for yaw control...

joepilot
06-29-2018, 10:01 AM
The falling leaf is a great teaching maneuver, but a lot of instructors have never done one and are scared of them. Also known as aggravated or prolonged stalls.

Joe

dbdevkc
08-22-2018, 06:10 AM
You might want to get a few lessons in a tailwheel aircraft. You'll learn gobs about rudder control.

First, fly coordinated to start with. Then your job to recover from a stall with a minimum amount of altitude lost would be to first unload the wing - that is, release the back pressure. If it rolls, use top (opposite the rotation or the roll) rudder. Only after the wings are generating lift should you use aileron.

I learned gliding first and you can perform some pretty stunning stalls. Learned the correct method of stall and spin recovery from actually getting into fully developed stalls and spins. Also recovery from incipient spins and stalls. Then when I started power training, I was expecting some big hairy scary stall. Meh. Pretty tame. Easy to recover. Yes, if you are chasing the ball as it were, some planes will drop a wing pretty good. If you're really off, some planes will go right over the top. If they scare you at all... do more of them.

JohnBurke
08-22-2018, 07:42 AM
Far, far too much emphasis has been put on altitude loss in stall recovery. Forget altitude loss. Decrease angle of attack, get the aircraft flying, then look at altitude loss. Far more important to prevent exceeding critical angle of attack in the first place, but once its exceeded, minimal altitude loss is not the immediate concern; reattaching airflow to the wing with reduced AoA is, and often that's going to require altitude loss in the process.

Conventional gear aircraft teach about taxiing conventional gear aircraft. They're a bit less forgiving on alignment during landing, but beyond that, there's little magic in having the third wheel at the correct end.

TiredSoul
08-22-2018, 08:08 AM
Find an instructor or if this is happening with an instructor on board fly with another one for a couple of lessons.
He may just find you the key.

You can’t learn how to fly from text.
And we shouldn’t encourage him to experiment with stuff he doesn’t understand. Especially stalls.

UAL T38 Phlyer
08-22-2018, 11:24 AM
Try having your instructor guide you through power-off falling leaf stalls... this will yield you certainty on how to dynamically (and GENTLY) work the rudders for yaw control...

THIS, and joepilot’s comment.

I learned to fly 42 years ago. Stalls made me nervous at first. Instructor finally had me do the “falling leaf.” A better term is “finding out you can still fly the airplane when it is stalled.”

By staying in the stall for minutes at a time, instead of seconds, you really learn how to feel the airplane, your AoA responses, and yes...that was when I started to find my way with the rudder.

I think we did them both power-on and off. Grateful he did that...really opened my eyes.

dckozak
08-23-2018, 08:59 AM
By staying in the stall for minutes at a time, instead of seconds, you really learn how to feel the airplane, your AoA responses, and yes...that was when I started to find my way with the rudder..


I agree, this would be a good teaching method that the instructor could employ. Years ago, I took my father on as a student. No student was ever as important for me. I was training him in a C-150 or 152, we were at stalls and every time we go into the stall, somehow he mismanaged the rudders, and it would fall off either left or right. I tried the suggestion above, had him just sit in the burble, and work the rudder to keep the aircraft straight; I even took the yoke so he could just concentrate on the rudder and keeping it straight. I failed to get him past this point and that was the end of teaching Dad. Very sad for me personally.

One other comparison. If you have any experience in a (small) boat with a rudder, preferably a sailboat; you could more easily relate to the lack of control effectiveness in low speed flight/boating. At the speeds a light trainer stalls, the (unaffectedness) of the flight controls is really eye opening to anyone, student or experienced pilot, who has not experienced it. Full rudder, possibly even reversing from one direction to the other is certainly possible depending on how the student miss handles the stall entry. This is one of the main reasons you want to avoid stalls by being aware before you get to the stall. Better to recover at the point you recognize the problem (stall warning horn) than to fight direction control and loss of altitude during full blown recovery.

Sperrysan
09-06-2018, 10:40 PM
In the 152 the common reason for a huge wing drop is trying to use exclusively the ball for coordination and failure to get the yoke forward at th first break. A wing drop is a break. If you push the yoke forward the roll will stop almost instantly. As I tell my students when discussing stalls in the 152;I don’t care where the nose goes in the break, just get get that yoke forward.

JackStraw
09-30-2018, 05:30 AM
The world needs accountants.



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