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View Full Version : ALPA card drive is underway!!!


Al Czervik
06-07-2018, 12:19 PM
Copied:

HEADS UP! A card drive to replace APA with ALPA is officially underway. We have formed 'APA to ALPA, LLC.', and are asking for donations to get a website and mailers going. We can do better - please consdider donating $$ and/or a few hours of your time to this effort! The contact information is:

(Address removed)

[email protected]

We are working to get a website up soon, but in the mean time email us with any questions. Once we have successfully completed our goal and we shut down the LLC, any left over funds will be donated to a charity.
Thanks for your support.


Frip
06-07-2018, 01:36 PM
I am not 100% sure but I don't believe that "card drive" is actually, or technically, correct.

This sounds like an alternative method to push the parties towards a negotiated merger that has been rumbling about in the basement for a while.

If so, it is probably a much better solution. Card drives are fraught with danger, including that of winding up with no representation at all or with some even worse crap association than we have now.

A merger of some sort implies a "deal" and some ability to negotiate terms and dues and disposition of property and a bunch of other stuff that is worth doing in a controlled and business-like manner.

Saabs
06-07-2018, 01:53 PM
Was the admiral finally correct ?


Doug Masters
06-07-2018, 03:17 PM
Be careful what you wish for...

EMBFlyer
06-07-2018, 05:29 PM
Was the admiral finally correct ?

Never.....

EMBFlyer
06-07-2018, 05:29 PM
This is SO not wise. With the apathy that abounds this place daily (let alone when something big comes up), we could quickly find ourselves without any representation at all.

Laker24
06-07-2018, 08:06 PM
I disagree. I think the group is pretty well informed and motivated. Our current contract was negotiated in bankruptcy. How many pilot groups got a raise during Ch 11? The AAL pilot group is eager to get an industry leading contract. The LOS NOW movement forced APA to act. Likewise I bet this movement will force APAs hand on an ALPA merger.

Route66
06-08-2018, 02:08 AM
I disagree. I think the group is pretty well informed and motivated. Our current contract was negotiated in bankruptcy. How many pilot groups got a raise during Ch 11? The AAL pilot group is eager to get an industry leading contract. The LOS NOW movement forced APA to act. Likewise I bet this movement will force APAs hand on an ALPA merger.

Ha, Ha, Ha.....you funny man!

Route66
06-08-2018, 02:15 AM
This is SO not wise. With the apathy that abounds this place daily (let alone when something big comes up), we could quickly find ourselves without any representation at all.

What representation? With the apathy you describe (and I agree with, BTW) what makes anyone think a card drive is worth it? Just smoke and mirrors. Say what you want about USAPA, but we held a card drive twice (the second time was because the cards got cut off wrong and we had to get everyone to sign again....which they gladly did) and the turnout was great both times.

Wont happen here. Your better off with no union. At least the Company gave us the profit sharing, pay raises and $1000 bonus. None of which the union got us. Except the LOS for furloughed guys while stripping the LUS guys of theirs.

The real question you should be asking is how many guys are out there that simply don't give a ______.

Here, I'll give you my "two cent" contribution: GOOD LUCK!!!

jcountry
06-08-2018, 06:37 AM
Iíd much rather see a Recall Carey drive.

I am privy to more behind the scenes info about that turd than I was. Remember the video in which he said he wouldnít credit more than a line pilot if elected? Has anyone checked up on those credits? Investigate that little tip of his iceberg.

And that little 20k thing he attempted to expense for his wife to attend some conference with him. He should have been recalled the second that news dropped! Thatís beyond disrespectful and/or tone deaf. Thatís serious lack of ethics.

He really needs to be recalled before we negotiate anything.

The negotiating comm will probably do an excellent job. And I think DC will just override them and lock them out. Exactly like LOS.

Iím very concerned about what he will give us to vote on. Especially in terms of scope.

We have serious problems w/APA, and we better start taking this one very seriously. ALPA wonít fix an ounce of this sort of thing.

Laker24
06-08-2018, 08:22 AM
Ha, Ha, Ha.....you funny man!

You are a known union hater. You spent the last week on the flex jet forum celebrating them going non union. There isn’t a single decent non union airline job in the world. I’m not sure if you are a management wannabe or just bitter over having a terrible career at Airways. Either way nobody is going to take you seriously here.

Flytolive
06-08-2018, 08:57 AM
Your better off with no union.That erroneous opinion says it all.

Route 66 was a Piedmont pilot who has been through the merger wringer and blames his plight on ALPA instead of recognizing the issues with US Air and those inevitably with merging seniority lists. Thankfully, consolidation is waning.

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2015/02/us%20major%20airlines%20merger%20chart%20pic%20REV %20B.jpeg

Route66
06-08-2018, 04:56 PM
You are a known union hater. You spent the last week on the flex jet forum celebrating them going non union. There isnít a single decent non union airline job in the world. Iím not sure if you are a management wannabe or just bitter over having a terrible career at Airways. Either way nobody is going to take you seriously here.

Yeah, like anyone is taking you guys seriously with your ALPA threats.

Bitter? Iím senior and making more money than you ever made. Iím loving the cash the COMPANY gave me....not the union.

Union hater? Thatís your opinion, but I donít hate the union, but the people who run it, the Careyís, Wilsonís and Bates are the ones that have the two faces in this group. When someone else thatís a union man bashes them thatís ok, but when I bash them Iím a union hater.

Hippocrytes.

Route66
06-08-2018, 04:57 PM
That erroneous opinion says it all.

Route 66 was a Piedmont pilot who has been through the merger wringer and blames his plight on ALPA instead of recognizing the issues with US Air and those inevitably with merging seniority lists. Thankfully, consolidation is waning.

http://aviationweek.com/site-files/aviationweek.com/files/uploads/2015/02/us%20major%20airlines%20merger%20chart%20pic%20REV %20B.jpeg

Yeah, you just keep saying that, like, ďTrump will never be presidentĒ.

Cheap talk.

Route66
06-08-2018, 04:59 PM
Iíd much rather see a Recall Carey drive.

I am privy to more behind the scenes info about that turd than I was. Remember the video in which he said he wouldnít credit more than a line pilot if elected? Has anyone checked up on those credits? Investigate that little tip of his iceberg.

And that little 20k thing he attempted to expense for his wife to attend some conference with him. He should have been recalled the second that news dropped! Thatís beyond disrespectful and/or tone deaf. Thatís serious lack of ethics.

He really needs to be recalled before we negotiate anything.

The negotiating comm will probably do an excellent job. And I think DC will just override them and lock them out. Exactly like LOS.

Iím very concerned about what he will give us to vote on. Especially in terms of scope.

We have serious problems w/APA, and we better start taking this one very seriously. ALPA wonít fix an ounce of this sort of thing.

You keep telling these guys, but they wonít listen to you. Theyíre to smart!!!!

Flytolive
06-08-2018, 05:56 PM
Union hater? Thatís your opinion, but I donít hate the unionStop the dues and get rid of pilot unions, and solve your problems.Whatever you say.

Laker24
06-08-2018, 08:48 PM
Yeah, like anyone is taking you guys seriously with your ALPA threats.

Bitter? I’m senior and making more money than you ever made. I’m loving the cash the COMPANY gave me....not the union.

Union hater? That’s your opinion, but I don’t hate the union, but the people who run it, the Carey’s, Wilson’s and Bates are the ones that have the two faces in this group. When someone else that’s a union man bashes them that’s ok, but when I bash them I’m a union hater.

Hippocrytes.

Your posts are pretty toxic. I guess I would be angry too if I had experienced the same career disappointments. I'm glad that you are able to make a good wage now. That's great.

Just don't forget that the 'cash that you are loving' was brought to you by APA. Parker would have happily continued to pay you $160/hour as an A330 CA with zero work rules until the day you retired. I wonder if there is anyone on this board who agrees with your viewpoints on unions. I'm guessing no. You remind me of the guy shouting on sidewalks with a sign that everybody tries to politely ignore.

Route66
06-09-2018, 04:36 AM
Your posts are pretty toxic. I guess I would be angry too if I had experienced the same career disappointments. I'm glad that you are able to make a good wage now. That's great.

Just don't forget that the 'cash that you are loving' was brought to you by APA. Parker would have happily continued to pay you $160/hour as an A330 CA with zero work rules until the day you retired. I wonder if there is anyone on this board who agrees with your viewpoints on unions. I'm guessing no. You remind me of the guy shouting on sidewalks with a sign that everybody tries to politely ignore.

The union didnít get me the profit sharing, the pay raise from last year NOR the $1000 bonus. Those are the facts. Every copilot that I fly with and most of the CLT DCA MIA REPS agree that this is a s______y contract. YOUR OWN UNION REPS. They are the ones writing how corrupt Dan Carey is and how poor the contract is written let alone enforced.

You hate me for simply parroting what THEY already say and your simple answer is to get ALPA as if they are the talisman lanyard youíll wear around your necks to ward off the evil company.

My posts are toxic? Go look in the mirror.

The guys shouting on the sidewalks are you union lackeys that support the same ole same ole. Hypocrites.

Route66
06-09-2018, 04:37 AM
Whatever you say.

At least theyíre MY problems.

Route66
06-09-2018, 04:57 AM
Your posts are pretty toxic. I guess I would be angry too if I had experienced the same career disappointments. I'm glad that you are able to make a good wage now. That's great.

Just don't forget that the 'cash that you are loving' was brought to you by APA. Parker would have happily continued to pay you $160/hour as an A330 CA with zero work rules until the day you retired. I wonder if there is anyone on this board who agrees with your viewpoints on unions. I'm guessing no. You remind me of the guy shouting on sidewalks with a sign that everybody tries to politely ignore.

So just answer Union or company:
1 who gave us profit sharing?
2 who gave us pay raises last year?
3 who gave us $1000 bonus for last year?

How about the Charlotte and MIA reps complaining about the poor contracts and the super poor language. Are those reps wrong?

Oh, and don’t forget corrupt Dan Carey.

Where does the three of the five ALPA board leadership, who is Delta, interests lie? How many here will except a Delta pilot leadership here?

Sure Delta pay is better but that’s THEIR management not ours.

How about a reality check?

Name User
06-09-2018, 05:01 AM
My personal opinion is unions tend to get in the way and often hurt their members more in some cases. But for us the overriding net benefit is positive.

We have a lot of blowhards running the union and interfacing directly with the company. A good example are the East reps and some of the APA reps.

The APA in general comes off as incredibly disorganized with each base rep blasting about his own opinions on subjects many of which end up being completely wrong. These are the people deciding our fate?

I don't know the specifics of how Carey is using union funds. On the surface the optics are very bad. But what I do like about him is he seems to actually attempt amicable conversations with the execs. I've never liked a contentious relationship with management, it's not good for either group.

I can see where Route66 is coming from however he has the pilots at APA to thank for his massive pay raises who brought the company to its knees in just a few days during the bankruptcy LBFO 2. Without that seat at bankruptcy court Parker would've run right over all of labor and extracted even more benefits for himself, his team, and the unsecured creditors.

mainlineAF
06-09-2018, 06:20 AM
My personal opinion is unions tend to get in the way and often hurt their members more in some cases. But for us the overriding net benefit is positive.

We have a lot of blowhards running the union and interfacing directly with the company. A good example are the East reps and some of the APA reps.

The APA in general comes off as incredibly disorganized with each base rep blasting about his own opinions on subjects many of which end up being completely wrong. These are the people deciding our fate?

I don't know the specifics of how Carey is using union funds. On the surface the optics are very bad. But what I do like about him is he seems to actually attempt amicable conversations with the execs. I've never liked a contentious relationship with management, it's not good for either group.

I can see where Route66 is coming from however he has the pilots at APA to thank for his massive pay raises who brought the company to its knees in just a few days during the bankruptcy LBFO 2. Without that seat at bankruptcy court Parker would've run right over all of labor and extracted even more benefits for himself, his team, and the unsecured creditors.



Please donít bring logic and reason into this. K thx

Flytolive
06-09-2018, 07:52 AM
So just answer Union or company:
1 who gave us profit sharing?
2 who gave us pay raises last year?
AA did, but if Delta pilots and United pilots weren't way ahead in both regards do you think they would have? ALPA says, "You're welcome."

Flytolive
06-09-2018, 08:01 AM
We have a lot of blowhards running the union and interfacing directly with the company. A good example are the East reps and some of the APA reps.

The APA in general comes off as incredibly disorganized with each base rep blasting about his own opinions on subjects many of which end up being completely wrong. These are the people deciding our fate?Who elected these reps?

I don't know the specifics of how Carey is using union funds. On the surface the optics are very bad. But what I do like about him is he seems to actually attempt amicable conversations with the execs. I've never liked a contentious relationship with management, it's not good for either group.Unions are reactive by nature. The company sets the tone.

One thing that appears democratic, but I think causes problems is membership electing the APA President. In ALPA the reps elect the MEC officers that creates a more cohesive leadership unit. I assume the membership also would recall the President. How does that work?

Laker24
06-09-2018, 01:31 PM
Route 66

The company gave us the $1000. I would argue the rest was a direct result of the constant pressure from the union to the company. In the absence of a union he would have never offered those items. Say what you want about Carey but he gets actual results outside of Section 6. Despite USAPAs tough guy rhetoric after years you were still making 124/hour as a 320 captain or 160/hour as a 330 CA. I would take APA over USAPA any day of the week.

Some of the above is debatable. Where you truly fail in the critical reasoning department is your assertion that we would somehow be better off without a union. Iím guessing you a management troll. If you are for real then go on C&R and tell everyone we are better off being non union.

SheepDogg
06-09-2018, 02:37 PM
You keep telling these guys, but they wonít listen to you. Theyíre to smart!!!!

*too*

(filler)

Hetman
06-09-2018, 02:53 PM
https://www.aviationcv.com/aviation-blog/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/become-a-professional-pilot.jpg


I want to be a pilot when I grow up. What could be more exciting than arguing about unions?

Route66
06-09-2018, 04:03 PM
My personal opinion is unions tend to get in the way and often hurt their members more in some cases. But for us the overriding net benefit is positive.

We have a lot of blowhards running the union and interfacing directly with the company. A good example are the East reps and some of the APA reps.

The APA in general comes off as incredibly disorganized with each base rep blasting about his own opinions on subjects many of which end up being completely wrong. These are the people deciding our fate?

I don't know the specifics of how Carey is using union funds. On the surface the optics are very bad. But what I do like about him is he seems to actually attempt amicable conversations with the execs. I've never liked a contentious relationship with management, it's not good for either group.

I can see where Route66 is coming from however he has the pilots at APA to thank for his massive pay raises who brought the company to its knees in just a few days during the bankruptcy LBFO 2. Without that seat at bankruptcy court Parker would've run right over all of labor and extracted even more benefits for himself, his team, and the unsecured creditors.

Be careful of giving me any credit for seeing where Iím coming from. Livetofly might start calling you names. Brought the company to its knees? I donít agree. I was here for it all as well. Bates fell on his sword and Wilson came in.

LAA wanted Parker at all cost to preserve the pension. That is a fact. Parker certainly sweetened the deal and the USAPA political affairs committee in DC was going to oppose the merger without being included in it. Yeah, you got green book cash, but except for the pension, you got more cash but the company got much more in productivity, hence the poor contract language. If your senior you donít care about the contract language because you get your first picks. The junior guys get screwed in the process.

Amicable conversations with the execs? Heck, I see that in the crew news all the time. Itís not the presidents job to negotiate contract amendments behind the negotiating committees back but he does it anyway.

Labor HAD to have a seat at the BK....by law. LAA didnít want Horton running the Company. Didnít trust him, didnít like him, didnít believe him.....who cares. It was Parker or no one. Give us the pensions and screw the rest of the pilots. Thatís the FACT. ALL BEHIND THE UNIONS AT US AIRWAYS BACKS. Period. Thank YOU for the pay raises? Hól, without us you would no better than two thirds the size of DAL, UAL and SWA at best. Remember the road shows? I still have the presentations if you want me to post them.

Your post has many contradictions in it. I believe you have doubts about the union itself. Be careful, you could be labeled anti-union if you donít agree with livetofly.

Truth and history hurts. Our union history in particular hurts worst. Nevertheless when 2020 comes around weíll get a raise, it just wonít be what the rest of the industry gets.

Route66
06-09-2018, 04:09 PM
Route 66

The company gave us the $1000. I would argue the rest was a direct result of the constant pressure from the union to the company. In the absence of a union he would have never offered those items. Say what you want about Carey but he gets actual results outside of Section 6. Despite USAPAs tough guy rhetoric after years you were still making 124/hour as a 320 captain or 160/hour as a 330 CA. I would take APA over USAPA any day of the week.

Some of the above is debatable. Where you truly fail in the critical reasoning department is your assertion that we would somehow be better off without a union. Iím guessing you a management troll. If you are for real then go on C&R and tell everyone we are better off being non union.

And American was in BK. Bates was practically ****ing in his pants. I saw it live and in person. You think you know it all but you werenít even there at the USAPA meetings with LAA. I was.

Your management troll is wrong. TWA guys are against you. Many of us US Airways guys are against you. Many of your reps are against you. APA management is against you. And Iím the management troll.

You donít need me to cóp in your bed, the LAA pilots do enough of that already. You know, the gift (for management) that keeps on giving.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 06:05 AM
LAA wanted Parker at all cost to preserve the pension. That is a fact. Parker certainly sweetened the deal and the USAPA political affairs committee in DC was going to oppose the merger without being included in it. Yeah, you got green book cash, but except for the pension, you got more cash but the company got much more in productivity, hence the poor contract language. If your senior you don’t care about the contract language because you get your first picks. The junior guys get screwed in the process.

Labor HAD to have a seat at the BK....by law. Give us the pensions and screw the rest of the pilots. That’s the FACT. ALL BEHIND THE UNIONS AT US AIRWAYS BACKS. Period. Thank YOU for the pay raises? H—l, without us you would no better than two thirds the size of DAL, UAL and SWA at best. Remember the road shows? Unions want to protect pensions? Shocking.

The fact is that the APA had to expend little negotiating capital thanks to the PBGC Director Joshua Gotbaum willingness to fight the grossly unnecessary effort to distressed-terminate the LAA pensions.

http://www.pionline.com/article/20120206/PRINT/302069984/pbgc-worthy-opponent-in-amr-bankruptcy-fight

There was no chance the distressed-terminated LCC pensions were going to be restored. If something like that were possible the Delta pilots certainly would have done it during their merger. Again, your rantings bear little resemblance to reality. Your erroneous assertions are in desperate need of evidence that doesn't exist. Your cognitive dissonance must be unbearable.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 06:11 AM
I want to be a pilot when I grow up. What could be more exciting than arguing about unions?Without pilot unions childish dreams of being a pilot would be just that.

Route66
06-10-2018, 03:55 PM
Unions want to protect pensions? Shocking.

The fact is that the APA had to expend little negotiating capital thanks to the PBGC Director Joshua Gotbaum willingness to fight the grossly unnecessary effort to distressed-terminate the LAA pensions.

http://www.pionline.com/article/20120206/PRINT/302069984/pbgc-worthy-opponent-in-amr-bankruptcy-fight

There was no chance the distressed-terminated LCC pensions were going to be restored. If something like that were possible the Delta pilots certainly would have done it during their merger. Again, your rantings bear little resemblance to reality. Your erroneous assertions are in desperate need of evidence that doesn't exist. Your cognitive dissonance must be unbearable.

And where do I say that LUS was going to get its pension back from the APA negotiating Green Book 2? But thanks for posting MY point and making it for me. They expended little negotiating capital because they didnít have much to begin with but what they had got spent on preserving THEIR (LAA) pensions. In fact, if you really understood you would have actually READ the article you linked to:

ďOnce those union negotiations begin in earnest, union solidarity is expected to give way to self-interest, most notably among the pilots, who stand to lose the most if their pensions are transferred to the PBGC. Because of a $54,000 annual benefit cap, some pilots could lose one-third or more of their retirement benefits, and they are expected to work unilaterally with the company to at least freeze their defined benefit plan, industry sources say.

This is what Iíve been saying all along. Pension first, contract and future unity gone for good.

How com you guys canít answer my questions....or simply wonít because of the truth? Where was profit sharing, pay raise snap back, bonuses....WHERE?

This is a very good article that makes my point exactly. I repeat for those who canít read the article, LUS pensions were surrendered to the PBGC 10 years before American BK. The only ammunition the LAA pilots had was hope that DP would make it work. Roll your money into the DC plan (401k) with Company backstop cash but the new American gets huge productivity gains without the great stuff (sure the hourly rate was less) in the LUS contract. The junior guys had a better life under our contract than this POS that locked us in for six years (now 7).

Answer my questions.

Route66
06-10-2018, 04:02 PM
Here is what else the said HORTON wanted to do, another reason DP was wanted by the LAA unions:

“To stay in the game, AMR executives say they need to cut annual costs by $2 billion, with $1.25 billion of that coming from reduced labor costs, including a 15% work force reduction”

Remember Horton wanted to shrink to profitability and RIF 15% of the pilot workforce? American needed size and they needed US!

Wow, I’m surprised at the short memory flytolive has.

Route66
06-10-2018, 04:05 PM
Route 66

The company gave us the $1000. I would argue the rest was a direct result of the constant pressure from the union to the company. In the absence of a union he would have never offered those items. Say what you want about Carey but he gets actual results outside of Section 6. Despite USAPAs tough guy rhetoric after years you were still making 124/hour as a 320 captain or 160/hour as a 330 CA. I would take APA over USAPA any day of the week.

Some of the above is debatable. Where you truly fail in the critical reasoning department is your assertion that we would somehow be better off without a union. Iím guessing you a management troll. If you are for real then go on C&R and tell everyone we are better off being non union.

BS. The raises and the PS were a direct result of the competitive pressures to keep pilots in class. Of course youíd take APA. Itís quantity not quality you want. What a surprise.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 04:36 PM
Your lack of reading comprehension helps explain your chronic confusion.They expended little negotiating capital because they didn’t have much to begin with...But at least you figured out after three trips though BK that employees are at a huge disadvantage. Again, Obama's PBGC director, Joshua Gotbaum prevented AA management from distress-terminating the LAA pension. AA pilots still enjoy the best reserve system of the majors, but you all certainly took your hits in BK like everyone else.

The raises and the PS were a direct result of the competitive pressures to keep pilots in class.Again, ALPA says, "You're welcome."

Route66
06-10-2018, 04:58 PM
AA did, but if Delta pilots and United pilots weren't way ahead in both regards do you think they would have? ALPA says, "You're welcome."

We had profit sharing at LUS. USAPA says ďyouíre welcomeĒ.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 05:08 PM
We had profit sharing at LUS. USAPA says ďyouíre welcomeĒ.USAPA? That's hilarious, unless you are trying to be serious.

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:09 PM
Your lack of reading comprehension helps explain your chronic confusion.But at least you figured out after three trips though BK that employees are at a huge disadvantage. Again, Obama's PBGC director, Joshua Gotbaum prevented AA management from distress-terminating the LAA pension. AA pilots still enjoy the best reserve system of the majors, but you all certainly took your hits in BK like everyone else.

Again, ALPA says, "You're welcome."

No, wrong again. Everyone (except you) knows there is now a pilot shortage. Read the article again. Gotbaum couldnít afford to inherit the LAA pilots way underfunded pension after United, Delta and ours without severe underfunding.

Who canít read? LUS only had two BK. FYI.

Best reserve? Not from all the Copilts I talk to who know their friends at the other majors. Just keep telling yourself that. Iím really trying hard to not call names but your last name isnít Gump, is it?

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:11 PM
USAPA? That's hilarious, unless you are trying to be serious.

Truth hurts, thatís why you canít face facts.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 05:13 PM
Who can’t read? LUS only had two BK. FYI. You, and AMR makes three.

Truth hurts, that’s why you can’t face facts.Truth? As Col. Jessup says, "You can't handle the truth" much less recognize it.

Name User
06-10-2018, 05:18 PM
BS. The raises and the PS were a direct result of the competitive pressures to keep pilots in class. Of course youíd take APA. Itís quantity not quality you want. What a surprise.

I think you under estimate just how many guys out there applied. Hell I did and never got a call. US hired me though.

If Spirit and Allegiant have been able to hire with wages half of ours, yeah, that 8% isn't going to do it.

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:19 PM
You, and AMR makes three.

Truth? As Col. Jessup says, "You can't handle the truth" much less recognize it.

We werenít part of the AMR BK. We merged with AMR on 9 Dec 2013. That was when the New AAL came about. You, sir, are wrong.

Truth still says we had profit sharing at former LUS. I have the paychecks to prove it.

Iíd rather be called a management spy than an ALPA officer.

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:22 PM
I think you under estimate just how many guys out there applied. Hell I did and never got a call. US hired me though.

If Spirit and Allegiant have been able to hire with wages half of ours, yeah, that 8% isn't going to do it.

Iím not sure I understand what your saying. Rephrase it please.

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 05:22 PM
We weren’t part of the AMR BKAnd yet you speak of it incessantly because, as even you recognize, it had and still has a profound effect on you and all LUSA pilots. Try to keep up.

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:28 PM
And yet you speak of it incessantly because, as even you recognize, it had and still has a profound effect on you and all LUS pilots. Try to keep up.

Again we go in circles and itís getting boring because, again, you simply werenít there and you donít understand.

Of course the merger had a profound effect. It wasnít any different with Delta/NWA (Delta pilots, hired not acquired stickers) or United/Continental, SWA/Air Tran, and now Alaska and Virgin America. Youíre just ****ed because weíve seen what 75 years of ALPA has gotten everyone in the twenty first century.....squat.

Route66
06-10-2018, 05:34 PM
I give up. Flytolive wins the stupid argument. Go ahead APA pilots. Vote in ALPA. Flytolive will run it with his top of the line Herndon pilots (three of top five Delta) so you can be their bióóhes.

VOTE IN ALPA! GO ALPA!

ALPA IS THE BEST! JUST DO IT!

YOUíLL HAVE IT ALL UNDER ALPA!

Flytolive
06-10-2018, 05:41 PM
You’re just ****ed because we’ve seen what 75 years of ALPA has gotten everyone in the twenty first century.....squat.If by squat you mean compensation that puts you in the top 5% with benefits and time off most people could only dream of.

I give up.That is understandable. Four mergers and three BKs leave a lot of scars and misplaced blame.

Name User
06-10-2018, 06:23 PM
Iím not sure I understand what your saying. Rephrase it please.

Whatever reason for that 8% raise, it wasn't because we couldn't hire pilots.

PRS Guitars
06-10-2018, 07:27 PM
BS. The raises and the PS were a direct result of the competitive pressures to keep pilots in class. Of course you’d take APA. It’s quantity not quality you want. What a surprise.

New hires aren’t leaving in droves and never have. Last year, from Jul 2017 to this moth 4 pilots hired after 2014 have left. 3 hired in the last 6 months and 1 2016 hire. The previous year was similar, less than 10 left. I’ll check my old list and update this. The data is available on the seniority list.

Edit:

Ok, just checked, I stand corrected...12 left between July 2016 and June 2017. Then 4 last year. So not a pilot retention problem by any means.

Sliceback
06-10-2018, 07:58 PM
APC post mentioned how many pilots had left SW in a recent year. It was significantly more than 12. Random recall is 50-60???

Sunfish FAIP
06-11-2018, 02:55 AM
APC post mentioned how many pilots had left SW in a recent year. It was significantly more than 12. Random recall is 50-60???


CY17 was 141...I was one of them! So far CY18 is looking just as bad

AwkwardTurtle
06-11-2018, 07:02 AM
I recommend bailing...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-ceo-doug-parker-154000372.html

OVBIII
06-11-2018, 08:17 AM
I recommend bailing...

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/american-airlines-ceo-doug-parker-154000372.html

bailing from what? (honestly asking here)

SheepDogg
06-11-2018, 09:45 AM
I think you guys broke Route66.

GreatStory
06-11-2018, 10:33 AM
bailing from what? (honestly asking here)


AA will be in bankruptcy again when the smallest recession hits. Margins are garbage compared to other airlines. Very disturbing.

Route66
06-12-2018, 04:49 AM
Whatever reason for that 8% raise, it wasn't because we couldn't hire pilots.

So you don't know the reason for the pay raise. If you watched the crew news DP gave just before the pay raise announcement DP was explaining that since we were in the normal cycle of pattern bargaining, compensation adjustments (paraphrasing here) would half to wait, or take place, in 2020.

Well then the pay rate adjustments were announced shortly thereafter. Many in the training department were saying that pilots were leaving classes for other carriers, specifically Delta. While your somewhat correct that no one can really place their finger on the reason for the change it wasn't because the union was "pressuring" the company for the rate change. Thats the point.

What I think was instrumental for the change was Elise Eberwine, along with DP, went to the board to convince them the upcoming pilot shortage in concurrence with the regional pilot shortage was a potential problem for the company that had to be addressed. Her husband is a LAWA senior (formally junior) Captain. Im sure getting her husband a pay raise had something to do with it.

Route66
06-12-2018, 04:50 AM
I think you guys broke Route66.

I just accepted the FACT that you "can't fix STUPID". Ergo, I stopped wasting my time.

GO ALPA!

Route66
06-12-2018, 04:54 AM
CY17 was 141...I was one of them! So far CY18 is looking just as bad

Just curious, but where on average do you think they're going? I don't know, myself.

Flytolive
06-12-2018, 06:29 AM
I just accepted the FACT that you "can't fix STUPID".Admitting you have a problem is the first step. Well done and good luck.

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 01:28 PM
AA will be in bankruptcy again when the smallest recession hits. Margins are garbage compared to other airlines. Very disturbing.

From NASDAQ -

AA 2016 2017

5% 7% profit margin
10% 13% operating margin
7% 11% pre tax profit margin

UA 6% 6% profit margin
9% 12% operating margin
10% 12% pre tax profit margin

Interesting that AA has produced $95 million in negative cash flow the last two years was UAL has gone through $1.621 billion.

AA has $5.344 billion in cash and s/t investments while UA has $3.798 billion.

It will be interesting to see who does better in an economic downturn.

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 01:31 PM
What I think was instrumental for the change was Elise Eberwine, along with DP, went to the board to convince them the upcoming pilot shortage in concurrence with the regional pilot shortage was a potential problem for the company that had to be addressed. Her husband is a LAWA senior (formally junior) Captain. Im sure getting her husband a pay raise had something to do with it.

Here's another version told by a couple of unrelated people - some guys went to Parker and said "put your money where your mouth is" about maintaining pay rates. He ponied up. Parker said the same story, in slightly different words, in his explanation.

iHateAMR
06-13-2018, 06:33 AM
From NASDAQ -

AA 2016 2017

5% 7% profit margin
10% 13% operating margin
7% 11% pre tax profit margin

UA 6% 6% profit margin
9% 12% operating margin
10% 12% pre tax profit margin

Interesting that AA has produced $95 million in negative cash flow the last two years was UAL has gone through $1.621 billion.

AA has $5.344 billion in cash and s/t investments while UA has $3.798 billion.

It will be interesting to see who does better in an economic downturn.

What are they adjusting for in the Pre-Tax Profit margin from NASDAQ vs the Adjusted Pre-Tax margin quoted in the article?

AA 2016 2017

12.1% 9.6% Adjusted Pre-tax profit margin

Sliceback
06-13-2018, 08:39 AM
IDK. NASDAQ is a reputable source and I stuck with one source.

I'd guess that the difference might be carryover tax write-offs from the BK? Or previous years losses?

TrinityDawn
06-16-2018, 11:07 AM
Nothing personal against the OP, but not just no, but HELL NO. I saw enough ALPA national corruption at Envoy to know I never want to be under their boot again.

If we, as a pilot group, canít clean up our own house and fix the corruption in the APA, what makes anyone think weíll be able to fix it in ALPA, where our voting power would be even more diluted in the organization? Sorry thatís a no-go for me.

Political representation is best when itís closest to the people. Adding another layer of bureaucracy that is even less accountable or responsive to the pilots of AA is a horrible idea IMHO.

Flytolive
06-16-2018, 11:37 AM
Political representation is best when itís closest to the people. Adding another layer of bureaucracy that is even less accountable or responsive to the pilots of AA is a horrible idea IMHO.And yet the opposite has been the case.

ALPA's governance allows quite a bit of autonomy for MECs, but the corporate knowledge to avoid huge blunders. As with unity within any one pilot group unity across pilot groups only increases our collective strength. The best evidence of this is management obvious desire to keep the APA away from ALPA.

Al Czervik
06-16-2018, 12:53 PM
And yet the opposite has been the case.

ALPA's governance allows quite a bit of autonomy for MECs, but the corporate knowledge to avoid huge blunders. As with unity within any one pilot group unity across pilot groups only increases our collective strength. The best evidence of this is management obvious desire to keep the APA away from ALPA.

APA an ongoing huge blunder.

Sliceback
06-16-2018, 02:10 PM
The best evidence of this is management obvious desire to keep the APA away from ALPA.

What is the proof of the ďobvious desireĒ?

jcountry
06-16-2018, 02:58 PM
APA an ongoing huge blunder.

Yes....

But would ALPA fix any of that?

Iím not at all excited about the prospect of paying twice the dues with the same sociopaths running the union.

The only way it would get my vote would be if the ALPA change included banning certain problem people by name, for life. We know that wonít happen.

I think our best shot would be to fix APA. We have some great committees, and we are starting to see some super good reps. I think the problem kids will be voted out soon enough, and then APA will be fine.

Al Czervik
06-16-2018, 03:25 PM
Yes....

But would ALPA fix any of that?

I’m not at all excited about the prospect of paying twice the dues with the same sociopaths running the union.

The only way it would get my vote would be if the ALPA change included banning certain problem people by name, for life. We know that won’t happen.

I think our best shot would be to fix APA. We have some great committees, and we are starting to see some super good reps. I think the problem kids will be voted out soon enough, and then APA will be fine.

It’s slowly happening. We’ll get them replaced, we’ll get old, the new, new crowd will toss us out too.

jcountry
06-16-2018, 04:57 PM
Itís slowly happening. Weíll get them replaced, weíll get old, the new, new crowd will toss us out too.

Thatís OK.

Iím willing to get tossed out over certain issues....

Iíll go to war over these punk kidís senseless future crusade to try and legalize Snapchat selfies in flight and hide Pokťmon characters over SLOP routes. ;)

(By then, Irritating Orange with be the president of the damned country, and PewDiePie will be running Russia, predictably they wonít get along..... Those idiots will probably nuke everyone, so we will have bigger fish to fry.)

nAAtive
06-16-2018, 05:46 PM
Yes....

But would ALPA fix any of that?

Iím not at all excited about the prospect of paying twice the dues with the same sociopaths running the union.

The only way it would get my vote would be if the ALPA change included banning certain problem people by name, for life. We know that wonít happen.

I think our best shot would be to fix APA. We have some great committees, and we are starting to see some super good reps. I think the problem kids will be voted out soon enough, and then APA will be fine.
At the very least some of the old Apa would be forced out in the new Alpa

Rawhide16
06-16-2018, 06:19 PM
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/114398-scheduling-committee-resigns.html

Sounds like DAL ALPA is having some issues as well.

jcountry
06-16-2018, 06:22 PM
At the very least some of the old Apa would be forced out in the new Alpa

This is the part I donít understand....

How?

Why would the same *******s not just get re elected?

Saabs
06-17-2018, 02:25 AM
This is the part I donít understand....

How?

Why would the same *******s not just get re elected?

Look at the elections happening. The same guys are NOT being elected.

Flytolive
06-17-2018, 06:39 AM
What is the proof of the “obvious desire”?Via negotiations AA management allowed the APA to avoid paying the $45.5M judgement against them when they had $36M in assets in 2001. What do you think would have happened if they had not?

Sliceback
06-17-2018, 11:06 AM
Via negotiations AA management allowed the APA to avoid paying the $45.5M judgement against them when they had $36M in assets in 2001. What do you think would have happened if they had not?

Thatís part of any negotiations. The company wanted APA to be nice as the industry started going through a merger/consolidation phase. APA wanted the fine to go away. A deal was reached.

During the Feb 1999 sickout the company probably preferred that APA had been part of ALPA.

What do I think would have happened to the fine? It probably would have gone away. The TWA merger six months later would have been the next trigger.

jcountry
06-17-2018, 12:27 PM
Look at the elections happening. The same guys are NOT being elected.

Exactly..

And it's happening despite ALPA not being here.

Flytolive
06-17-2018, 12:41 PM
That’s part of any negotiations.No it isn't. Name another time any pilot union got a lump sum of anywhere near $45.5M dollars put into the union's coffers in Section 6 negotiations.

If AMR was unwilling to forgive the debt then the APA would have had to recapitalize by making an always popular special assessment of the membership of about $2,000 - $4,000/pilot. The other obvious option would have been to join ALPA. That is the last thing AA management or the ATA (now A4A) wanted.

Amazingly pilots don't understand this or that the more unified we are the stronger we are.

7576FO
06-17-2018, 01:45 PM
Via negotiations AA management allowed the APA to avoid paying the $45.5M judgement against them when they had $36M in assets in 2001. What do you think would have happened if they had not?

The fine was forgiven in May 2003 TA that included a 23.5% pay cut and gutting of our 1997 contract. Thatís right we voted down the 2000 contract proposal in Aug 2001.
The 2003 gun to the head contract was 5 years amenable 2008.
Nothing but kick the can until Nov 2011 BK
2012 LBFO term sheet
2013 Merger transition agreement
2015 JCBA

Weíve just not had many contracts compared to DL or UA.

7576FO
06-17-2018, 01:46 PM
Thatís part of any negotiations. The company wanted APA to be nice as the industry started going through a merger/consolidation phase. APA wanted the fine to go away. A deal was reached.

During the Feb 1999 sickout the company probably preferred that APA had been part of ALPA.

What do I think would have happened to the fine? It probably would have gone away. The TWA merger six months later would have been the next trigger.

Feb 1999 sickout
Reno Air purchased Nov 1998
TWA late Jan 2001

Saabs
06-17-2018, 02:22 PM
Exactly..

And it's happening despite ALPA not being here.

It would happen much faster with Alpa.

Al Czervik
06-21-2018, 02:43 AM
https://apatoalpa.com

jcountry
06-21-2018, 07:35 AM
https://apatoalpa.com

Nope.

Not a penny.

Regionalsuck
06-21-2018, 10:00 AM
Worked for ALPA carrier for 11 years. Grass is not greener. Same crap, same BS, just more expensive dues.

NO THANKS.

Laker24
06-21-2018, 12:48 PM
Worked for ALPA carrier for 11 years. Grass is not greener. Same crap, same BS, just more expensive dues.

NO THANKS.

Maybe it wasn’t the fault of your union. Possibly you just worked for a crappy airline with a weak pilot group. The fact remains ALPA has the best structure and the most effective resources for negotiating pilot contracts.

Regionalsuck
06-21-2018, 01:23 PM
Maybe it wasn’t the fault of your union. Possibly you just worked for a crappy airline with a weak pilot group. The fact remains ALPA has the best structure and the most effective resources for negotiating pilot contracts.

Lol. You clearly have no experience dealing with ALPA and know nothing about the history of American Eagle.

Have you ever dealt with or tried to get assistance from their Attorneys? I have = useless. Worst I have ever dealt with in my life. You'd get a better attorney off a roadside billboard.

Have you ever been part of a union "association" that will push other carriers, also part of the same so called association to undercut/undermine your "ALPA" group who is taking a stand against management demands for concessions. They not only facilitated this backstabbing that seriously harmed our pilot group for years by another ALPA carrier, they encouraged it. They don't care about you or your group, it's an every group for themselves dues collecting machine. There is absolutely no UNION with them. It's a freaking joke.

Have you ever had ALPA try to help out with pay problems? I have. Useless again. Years of problems.

Contract enforcement/negotiating? Lol. Horrible. Fly it and grieve it. Years later your grievance will be traded for something else in some backroom deal or thrown out due to some shady deal and you will get nothing. Most cut and dry, black and white contract violations lost in arbitration years later time after time. Inexcusable! What did we pay thousands in dues for every year??? Useless ALPA Magazines and stickers?

Same Backroom deals, same boozing it up and wasting our dues money on dinners, events for the same cronie groups at our expense constantly, ridiculous salaries for everyone on the payroll.. all public info. Higher dues. Same BS.. People thinking it would actually be better are dreaming.. It is more of the same nonsense. Been there, done that.

nAAtive
06-21-2018, 02:01 PM
Lol. You clearly have no experience dealing with ALPA and know nothing about the history of American Eagle.

Have you ever dealt with or tried to get assistance from their Attorneys? I have = useless. Worst I have ever dealt with in my life. You'd get a better attorney off a roadside billboard.

Have you ever been part of a union "association" that will push other carriers, also part of the same so called association to undercut/undermine your "ALPA" group who is taking a stand against management demands for concessions. They not only facilitated this backstabbing that seriously harmed our pilot group for years by another ALPA carrier, they encouraged it. They don't care about you or your group, it's an every group for themselves dues collecting machine. There is absolutely no UNION with them. It's a freaking joke.

Have you ever had ALPA try to help out with pay problems? I have. Useless again. Years of problems.

Contract enforcement/negotiating? Lol. Horrible. Fly it and grieve it. Years later your grievance will be traded for something else in some backroom deal or thrown out due to some shady deal and you will get nothing. Most cut and dry, black and white contract violations lost in arbitration years later time after time. Inexcusable! What did we pay thousands in dues for every year??? Useless ALPA Magazines and stickers?

Same Backroom deals, same boozing it up and wasting our dues money on dinners, events for the same cronie groups at our expense constantly, ridiculous salaries for everyone on the payroll.. all public info. Higher dues. Same BS.. People thinking it would actually be better are dreaming.. It is more of the same nonsense. Been there, done that.
Replace every Alpa you wrote with APA and it works the same.

Fact is APA always has contracts that are worse than Alpa contracts. Itís that simple folks. Some of you just donít get it.

Regionalsuck
06-21-2018, 02:21 PM
Replace every Alpa you wrote with APA and it works the same.

Fact is APA always has contracts that are worse than Alpa contracts. It’s that simple folks. Some of you just don’t get it.

I get it just fine. Same people, same ol BS shenanigans = same results with higher dues premiums.

Comparing contracts during years of losing money, unprofitable negotiating times and recent bankruptcy agreements to Delta negotiating a deal while they are making billions of dollars is quite a different thing.

Thinking ALPA will somehow just fix all the problems here is a pipe dream. All the same internal cancers are still there. Throwing more money at it hoping it will magically get better isn't going to do much of anything except make you wonder where that $2500-$5000 went at the end of the year. Most expensive magazine subscription I ever had, with no choice but to pay for it or lose my job.

mainlineAF
06-21-2018, 03:19 PM
Lol. You clearly have no experience dealing with ALPA and know nothing about the history of American Eagle.

Have you ever dealt with or tried to get assistance from their Attorneys? I have = useless. Worst I have ever dealt with in my life. You'd get a better attorney off a roadside billboard.

Have you ever been part of a union "association" that will push other carriers, also part of the same so called association to undercut/undermine your "ALPA" group who is taking a stand against management demands for concessions. They not only facilitated this backstabbing that seriously harmed our pilot group for years by another ALPA carrier, they encouraged it. They don't care about you or your group, it's an every group for themselves dues collecting machine. There is absolutely no UNION with them. It's a freaking joke.

Have you ever had ALPA try to help out with pay problems? I have. Useless again. Years of problems.

Contract enforcement/negotiating? Lol. Horrible. Fly it and grieve it. Years later your grievance will be traded for something else in some backroom deal or thrown out due to some shady deal and you will get nothing. Most cut and dry, black and white contract violations lost in arbitration years later time after time. Inexcusable! What did we pay thousands in dues for every year??? Useless ALPA Magazines and stickers?

Same Backroom deals, same boozing it up and wasting our dues money on dinners, events for the same cronie groups at our expense constantly, ridiculous salaries for everyone on the payroll.. all public info. Higher dues. Same BS.. People thinking it would actually be better are dreaming.. It is more of the same nonsense. Been there, done that.



You canít compare regional ALPA to legacy airline ALPA.

Bob Loblaw
06-21-2018, 04:51 PM
You canít compare regional ALPA to legacy airline ALPA.

So, you agree ALPA does not do their due diligence in protecting all of their members?

drinksonme
06-21-2018, 05:34 PM
Lol. You clearly have no experience dealing with ALPA and know nothing about the history of American Eagle.

Have you ever dealt with or tried to get assistance from their Attorneys? I have = useless. Worst I have ever dealt with in my life. You'd get a better attorney off a roadside billboard.

Have you ever been part of a union "association" that will push other carriers, also part of the same so called association to undercut/undermine your "ALPA" group who is taking a stand against management demands for concessions. They not only facilitated this backstabbing that seriously harmed our pilot group for years by another ALPA carrier, they encouraged it. They don't care about you or your group, it's an every group for themselves dues collecting machine. There is absolutely no UNION with them. It's a freaking joke.

Have you ever had ALPA try to help out with pay problems? I have. Useless again. Years of problems.

Contract enforcement/negotiating? Lol. Horrible. Fly it and grieve it. Years later your grievance will be traded for something else in some backroom deal or thrown out due to some shady deal and you will get nothing. Most cut and dry, black and white contract violations lost in arbitration years later time after time. Inexcusable! What did we pay thousands in dues for every year??? Useless ALPA Magazines and stickers?

Same Backroom deals, same boozing it up and wasting our dues money on dinners, events for the same cronie groups at our expense constantly, ridiculous salaries for everyone on the payroll.. all public info. Higher dues. Same BS.. People thinking it would actually be better are dreaming.. It is more of the same nonsense. Been there, done that.

Holy Moly, you have regional PTSD.

Smoke Toliet
06-21-2018, 06:28 PM
Money sent

jcountry
06-21-2018, 10:55 PM
You canít compare regional ALPA to legacy airline ALPA.

Bullsqueeze.

The thought that ALPA exists to just screw crap out of all regionals and do a great job for legacies is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read.

The bottom line with any union is ethics. ALPA is 100% as unethical as APA has ever been. Probably even worse.

nAAtive
06-21-2018, 10:59 PM
Bullsqueeze.

The thought that ALPA exists to just screw crap out of all regionals and do a great job for legacies is probably the stupidest thing I have ever read.

The bottom line with any union is ethics. ALPA is 100% as unethical as APA has ever been. Probably even worse.

Better contracts than APA

A330FoodCritic
06-22-2018, 02:50 AM
Better contracts than APA

Like there is anywhere to go but up.

Al Czervik
06-22-2018, 03:28 AM
Like there is anywhere to go but up.

Donít worry. APA will give concessions.

Whiskey4
06-22-2018, 04:22 AM
Thinking ALPA will somehow just fix all the problems here is a pipe dream. All the same internal cancers are still there.

This is the same thinking as, ďIf we just throw Horton and his AMR bums out of here... Parker and his US Airways team will come in and take care of us. How do I know? Because they promised!!Ē ;D

Route66
06-22-2018, 04:25 AM
This is the same thinking as, ďIf we just throw Horton and his AMR bums out of here... Parker and his US Airways team will come in and take care of us. How do I know? Because they promised!!Ē ;D
Awww...did someone not do their elevate program and learn about their ďimplicit biasĒ yet?

ORDinary
06-22-2018, 07:22 AM
Not taking a side either way, but I heard once straight from Tim Canoll's mouth that if they ever got AA pilots to rejoin ALPA dues would go down from where they are, due to such a huge influx of pilots. So it may not be an increase in dues. TFWIW

BackintheLPA
06-22-2018, 11:00 AM
Regionalsuck is correct in his summation of the ALPA experience. I worked at PSA when the vote went down to open the door to move Envoy CRJs to PSA. It should have never even been up for consideration. It was shocking to watch 2 ALPA pilot groups be allowed to harm another ALPA pilot group. ALPA National enabled the whipsaw.

I get it...The 2015 JCBA is garbage in a lot of areas, especially when it comes to work rules. I just canít definitively say ALPA will change anything. Delta and United are farther along in the post bankruptcy/merger timeline than AA. I think that has more to do with the significant contractual gains that they have gotten over AA. Attributing those gains to ALPA may be a red herring.

ORDinary
06-22-2018, 11:04 AM
ALPA National enabled the whipsaw.


They also encouraged and celebrated it.

jcountry
06-22-2018, 01:47 PM
Regionalsuck is correct in his summation of the ALPA experience. I worked at PSA when the vote went down to open the door to move Envoy CRJs to PSA. It should have never even been up for consideration. It was shocking to watch 2 ALPA pilot groups be allowed to harm another ALPA pilot group. ALPA National enabled the whipsaw.

I get it...The 2015 JCBA is garbage in a lot of areas, especially when it comes to work rules. I just canít definitively say ALPA will change anything. Delta and United are farther along in the post bankruptcy/merger timeline than AA. I think that has more to do with the significant contractual gains that they have gotten over AA. Attributing those gains to ALPA may be a red herring.

The differences in these contracts are attributable to the different pilot groups.

Those guys have groups which are not nearly so top heavy and therefore not just concerned with things that benefit only very senior widebody people.

Senior widebody folks donít care about work rules or soft time. They donít care about anything but saving their pensions and hourly pay. They control the BOD, but they wonít for long.

In just a couple of years, so many will have retired that they likely wonít control the board. APA will gradually improve. Same thing would happen if ALPA were our representation, but they do have several layers of bureaucracy that we donít, and they cost twice as much.

Iím not interested in ALPA. They wonít do anything we canít do better (and cheaper) ourselves.

V12Merlin
06-22-2018, 05:50 PM
Lol. You clearly have no experience dealing with ALPA and know nothing about the history of American Eagle.

Have you ever dealt with or tried to get assistance from their Attorneys? I have = useless. Worst I have ever dealt with in my life. You'd get a better attorney off a roadside billboard.

Have you ever been part of a union "association" that will push other carriers, also part of the same so called association to undercut/undermine your "ALPA" group who is taking a stand against management demands for concessions. They not only facilitated this backstabbing that seriously harmed our pilot group for years by another ALPA carrier, they encouraged it. They don't care about you or your group, it's an every group for themselves dues collecting machine. There is absolutely no UNION with them. It's a freaking joke.

Have you ever had ALPA try to help out with pay problems? I have. Useless again. Years of problems.

Contract enforcement/negotiating? Lol. Horrible. Fly it and grieve it. Years later your grievance will be traded for something else in some backroom deal or thrown out due to some shady deal and you will get nothing. Most cut and dry, black and white contract violations lost in arbitration years later time after time. Inexcusable! What did we pay thousands in dues for every year??? Useless ALPA Magazines and stickers?

Same Backroom deals, same boozing it up and wasting our dues money on dinners, events for the same cronie groups at our expense constantly, ridiculous salaries for everyone on the payroll.. all public info. Higher dues. Same BS.. People thinking it would actually be better are dreaming.. It is more of the same nonsense. Been there, done that.

Donít forget the ďsnacksĒ.

16 year no strike, pay indexed, industry average contract that they didnít even honor? Think weíve forgotten about it?


Think again. (And I donít even wrk there)

Sliceback
06-23-2018, 12:38 PM
Feb 1999 sickout
Reno Air purchased Nov 1998
TWA late Jan 2001

Lawsuit settlement offered in August 2000 TA. Memebership voted it down in September 2000.

TWA merger announcement was Jan 2001.

Final appeals process ended in Feb 2001.

The lawsuit settlement was part of the TWA merger process. Agreed to in October(?) 2001. Merger talks had been good ng on since at least Feb 2001, or approx five months since the previous agreement, that included the settlement of the lawsuit, had expired.

Sliceback
06-23-2018, 12:40 PM
No it isn't. Name another time any pilot union got a lump sum of anywhere near $45.5M dollars put into the union's coffers in Section 6 negotiations.

If AMR was unwilling to forgive the debt then the APA would have had to recapitalize by making an always popular special assessment of the membership of about $2,000 - $4,000/pilot. The other obvious option would have been to join ALPA. That is the last thing AA management or the ATA (now A4A) wanted.

Amazingly pilots don't understand this or that the more unified we are the stronger we are.

It wasnít a $45 million lump sum. It was an IOU.

If you recall from union meetings back then APA didnít expect to have to pay the fine and ultimately they were right.

BOGSAT
06-23-2018, 05:39 PM
https://apatoalpa.com

When is the last time APA had a leading contract? Early 90s? Almost three decades?

This would at least should send a strong message that weíre serious about leading.

Sliceback
06-24-2018, 03:44 AM
UA is ALPA. When was the last time they had an industry leading contract? For how many years? For how many years in the recent past have they had a miserable, or at least AA/APA lagging, contract?

Al Czervik
06-24-2018, 06:02 AM
UA is ALPA. When was the last time they had an industry leading contract? For how many years? For how many years in the recent past have they had a miserable, or at least AA/APA lagging, contract?

UAL contract smokes ours.

mainlineAF
06-24-2018, 08:04 AM
Worked for ALPA carrier for 11 years. Grass is not greener. Same crap, same BS, just more expensive dues.



NO THANKS.



You do know our dues do to 1.5% once we open section 6 right?

Also, itís almost a guarantee ALPA dues would go to 1% if AA joined.

If you donít want ALPA thatís fine. But at least get your facts straight.

Sliceback
06-24-2018, 10:04 AM
You do know our dues do to 1.5% once we open section 6 right?

Also, it’s almost a guarantee ALPA dues would go to 1% if AA joined.

If you don’t want ALPA that’s fine. But at least get your facts straight.

Facts? Where did you get 1% for ALPA’s dues? ALPA’s numbers are out there. AA/APA’s revenue influx can be estimated to a high degree of accuracy. The number I heard was 1.8% would be a decent guess if APA joined ALPA.

mainlineAF
06-24-2018, 10:13 AM
Facts? Where did you get 1% for ALPAís dues? ALPAís numbers are out there. AA/APAís revenue influx can be estimated to a high degree of accuracy. The number I heard was 1.8% would be a decent guess if APA joined ALPA.



The fact i was referring to was APA dues going to 1.5% for section 6.

On the apatoalpa website it says ALPA dues are 1.9% and if APA joins they would more than likely go to a max of 1.5%. Iíve heard 1% from multiple sources.

Idk why people get so up in arms about a dues increase anyway. Iíd pay significantly more for a strong union that has a better chance of securing a better contract. That would be money spent.

Sliceback
06-24-2018, 11:39 AM
The fact i was referring to was APA dues going to 1.5% for section 6.

On the apatoalpa website it says ALPA dues are 1.9% and if APA joins they would more than likely go to a max of 1.5%. Iíve heard 1% from multiple sources.

Idk why people get so up in arms about a dues increase anyway. Iíd pay significantly more for a strong union that has a better chance of securing a better contract. That would be money spent.

Sorry but those percentages are nonsense. APA is about a $34 million revenue unit. ALPA recently was listed at $193 million. With a 1% dues structure the revenue would drop to $135 million from a combined $227 million.

If ALPA only took APAís revenue, and had no increase in costs due to the APA MEC unit, the dues would drop to 1.6%. APAwiuld have some chats required which is how the 1.8% estimate comes about. Public math warning with no one vetting my bath).

I wouldnít trust anyone pushing those numbers. But do the math yourself since my math might be wrong. But the numbers are very similar to the percentages Iíd been told but hadnít double checked.

RyanP
06-24-2018, 01:42 PM
I’d pay significantly more for a strong union that has a better chance of securing a better contract..

Strong union it DEFINITELY is not. It is an "association" that is not united in the least bit with any other ALPA pilot groups. It is every carrier for themselves, from firsthand experience of over a decade.

Should it be this way? Absolutely not, that is a major part of the problem with ALPA, but it's structured this way for some reason. Each MEC does it's own thing for their own best interests, not the interests of the whole. Trust me, I have asked on teleconferences, to ALPA national, in person, emailed, raised hell about it at my prior ALPA carrier that allowed and encouraged the whipsaw damages between our fellow ALPA carriers because it MAKES NO SENSE to be set up this way. If ALPA carriers are not banded together (and they aren't), than the whole thing is useless and it defeats the purpose of its existance. If every ALPA carrier was required to stick together and agreed to only work for the same contractual goals, then it might be worthwhile. Sure as hell is NOT that way though.

We already basically aren't allowed to strike (won't ever in a million years be released under this administration), we aren't allowed to sue for contractual violations (arbitration only, which take years and are biased towards the company anyway), basic labor law protections that apply to the rest of the United States employee's don't apply to us since we are under this third world railway labor act nonsense which ALPA certainly isn't pushing to change or be re-written to something reasonable from this century. :rolleyes:

Then there is the fact that there is zero evidence that they actually would get us a better contract. Only speculation and blind assumption. Which is pretty optimistic seeing how it would likely be mostly all the same group of cronies involved in the new MEC making the decisions anyway.

On top of that you get to pay all their bloated salaries. Disgusting to be part of an "association" where instead of serving your interests. The secretaries, web developers, graphic designers and assistants answering phones make more than you do as the Pilot paying their salary for over a decade.
https://www.unionfacts.com/employees/Air_Line_Pilots
Here is a salary list.

.

Flytolive
06-24-2018, 03:15 PM
Strong union it DEFINITELY is not. It is an "association" that is not united in the least bit with any other ALPA pilot groups. It is every carrier for themselves, from firsthand experience of over a decade.It is the strongest and largest pilot union in the world by a large margin, and your firsthand experience at Envoy was subsidized by the pilots at Delta and United to a large extent. Ingratitude noted.

Each pilot group has a large amount of autonomy and unfortunately the Eagle/Envoy pilots agreed to that 16 year deal. It was probably signed before you ever got there, but you took the job, didn't you.

DAL, SWA and UAL destroy AA in QOL and day off averages for the vast majority of narrow body pilots. Which is worth far more than just pay rates in my book.What union do 2 out of 3 belong to again?

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing as it is nothing but whining and ignorance on display.

ORDinary
06-24-2018, 03:39 PM
It is the strongest and largest pilot union in the world by a large margin, and your firsthand experience at Envoy was subsidized by the pilots at Delta and United to a large extent. Ingratitude noted.

Each pilot group has a large amount of autonomy and unfortunately the Eagle/Envoy pilots agreed to that 16 year deal. It was probably signed before you ever got there, but you took the job, didn't you.

What union do 2 out of 3 belong to again?

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing as it is nothing but whining and ignorance on display.

I don't think he was complaining about the 16 year deal. More likely it was about the time ALPA national reps tried to strong arm our MEC to say yes to an additional round of pay cuts 1 year into our 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Also the celebration of regional whipsawing didn't help. And as ALPA national told us repeatedly: they are not a union. They are an association of separate unions. And those unions are not working in concert, they made very clear to us.

RyanP
06-24-2018, 04:02 PM
I don't think he was complaining about the 16 year deal. More likely it was about the time ALPA national reps tried to strong arm our MEC to say yes to an additional round of pay cuts 1 year into our 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Also the celebration of regional whipsawing didn't help. And as ALPA national told us repeatedly: they are not a union. They are an association of separate unions. And those unions are not working in concert, they made very clear to us.

Exactly...

RyanP
06-24-2018, 04:05 PM
The rest of your post isn't worth addressing as it is nothing but whining and ignorance on display.

Yeah, thats what the ignorant sheep say that have no valid counter argument to the reality of the situation.

What part of my post isn't the truth?

m78fl370
06-24-2018, 05:26 PM
It is the strongest and largest pilot union in the world by a large margin, and your firsthand experience at Envoy was subsidized by the pilots at Delta and United to a large extent. Ingratitude noted.

Each pilot group has a large amount of autonomy and unfortunately the Eagle/Envoy pilots agreed to that 16 year deal. It was probably signed before you ever got there, but you took the job, didn't you.

What union do 2 out of 3 belong to again?

The rest of your post isn't worth addressing as it is nothing but whining and ignorance on display.

^^^^^This is ignorance on display. ^^^^

The 16 year contract doesnít have a ****tin thing to do with what he was saying. Damn, if thatís the last thing you remember about Eagle and ALPA, youíve been out of the loop for a while.

ORDinary
06-24-2018, 05:35 PM
Maybe if ALPA rewrote its bylaws so the pilot groups it represents could actually work together, instead of encouraging their undercutting of each other, maybe that would be a good start. But that would be a fundamental change to what ALPA is. I can't imagine it happening.

It is a valid point that mainline ALPA is different than regional ALPA. But that doesn't remove the very bad taste from our mouths.

Flytolive
06-24-2018, 07:42 PM
More likely it was about the time ALPA national reps tried to strong arm our MEC to say yes to an additional round of pay cuts 1 year into our 8 year bankruptcy concessionary contract. Also the celebration of regional whipsawing didn't help. And as ALPA national told us repeatedly: they are not a union. They are an association of separate unions. And those unions are not working in concert, they made very clear to us.Pressure? In what form? Did they put a gun to your heads? It is up to each MEC and their pilots to say no. Place the responsibility where it belongs.

There is zero incentive for ALPA to have pilot groups whipsawn against each other, and pilot groups coordinate in a myriad of ways. The biggest of which without UAL, DAL, FDX and others subsidizing the regional pilot groups without which they would have been far worse off, and that would have been bad for all pilot groups.

It is amazing to hear pilots who enjoyed this largesse whine about the union that went above and beyond. You can complain about age 65 and the outsourcing of mainline jobs, but few regional pilots back in the day seemed to realize that was delaying their landing a mainline job. All those shiny jets jobs.

But please if you actually know something instead of hearing your politicians deflect blame upon the easiest possible target then give us the details instead of the tired generalizations and hearsay like, "the national reps tried to strong arm the MEC." Which reps? How did they do that? What was the threat? Why didn't the MEC just say no?

TRZ06
06-24-2018, 08:29 PM
Unsure of my position on switch, but I noticed on APA to ALPA site Q&A offered by no other than Neil Roghair...doesnt leave me with the warm fuzzies even though his reasoning seemed OK. Hard to overlook past history of some of the players.

ORDinary
06-25-2018, 03:20 AM
Which reps? How did they do that? What was the threat? Why didn't the MEC just say no?

Bill Couette.
They told our MEC there would be lawsuits against them if they didn't vote yes to put it to a pilot vote. I wasn't in the MEC so I wasn't in the room, but this is what I was told.
Our MEC no voters chose to abstain rather than cave, so it passed 4-0 instead failing 5-4. 2 of the MEC members who abstained were kind of mysteriously fired months later, I'm not sure how hard ALPA fought (if at all) to get their jobs back (one of them posts here occasionally, maybe he could shed some light on this stuff). Then it failed to pass the pilot group. When our planes went to another ALPA carrier as punishment, ALPA paraded around that carrier's growth like a great ALPA victory, with no mention of our subsequent displacements and shrinking.

I'm not saying this because I necessarily think APA is any better, I'm just saying this left a bad taste in our mouths, and I think rightly so.

Route66
06-25-2018, 03:30 AM
Yeah, thats what the ignorant sheep say that have no valid counter argument to the reality of the situation.

What part of my post isn't the truth?

You donít agree with him. You are correct. Flytolive says you must be ignorant, therefore the answer is to VOTE ALPA!!

Flytolive
06-25-2018, 04:57 AM
Bill Couette. They told our MEC there would be lawsuits against them if they didn't vote yes to put it to a pilot vote. I wasn't in the MEC so I wasn't in the room, but this is what I was told.It is all in the details. MR can be a powerful legal defense against DFR lawsuits, but that certainly doesn't mean that reps need to endorse a bad agreement.

Then it failed to pass the pilot group. When our planes went to another ALPA carrier as punishmentGood on the pilots for making a stand, but that is the problem with the outsourcing in enables the mainline airlines to easily whipsaw their regionals against each other and move the flying to the low cost provider. The worst example of this is what happened to Comair. It gives regional pilot groups a relatively weak hand against management.

As mainline pilots we need to take advantage of the pilot/pay shortage and bring the flying back to mainline. DAL & UAL have very similar regional scope that caps it at 450 aircraft if management takes advantage of the provisions to max out the 76 seaters. AAL's regional scope allows further growth proportional to mainline growth and up to 79 seats.

Flytolive saysHere is what Route66 says.But the day is coming when NO ONE has to pay any union dues. Whether YOU like it or not. What are you going to do then?He has all kind of swell ideas.

Route66
06-25-2018, 05:37 AM
It is all in the details. MR can be a powerful legal defense against DFR lawsuits, but that certainly doesn't mean that reps need to endorse a bad agreement.

Good on the pilots for making a stand, but that is the problem with the outsourcing in enables the mainline airlines to easily whipsaw their regionals against each other and move the flying to the low cost provider. The worst example of this is what happened to Comair. It gives regional pilot groups a relatively weak hand against management.

As mainline pilots we need to take advantage of the pilot/pay shortage and bring the flying back to mainline. DAL & UAL have very similar regional scope that caps it at 450 aircraft if management takes advantage of the provisions to max out the 76 seaters. AAL's regional scope allows further growth proportional to mainline growth and up to 79 seats.

Here is what Route66 says.He has all kind of swell ideas.

But what if Iím right? What is your solution then? More ďshoot the messengerĒ posts?

nAAtive
06-25-2018, 06:08 AM
It is all in the details. MR can be a powerful legal defense against DFR lawsuits, but that certainly doesn't mean that reps need to endorse a bad agreement.

Good on the pilots for making a stand, but that is the problem with the outsourcing in enables the mainline airlines to easily whipsaw their regionals against each other and move the flying to the low cost provider. The worst example of this is what happened to Comair. It gives regional pilot groups a relatively weak hand against management.

As mainline pilots we need to take advantage of the pilot/pay shortage and bring the flying back to mainline. DAL & UAL have very similar regional scope that caps it at 450 aircraft if management takes advantage of the provisions to max out the 76 seaters. AAL's regional scope allows further growth proportional to mainline growth and up to 79 seats.

Here is what Route66 says.He has all kind of swell ideas.

Pretty sure UAL sand DAL can grow over 450 if they grow mainline.

Flytolive
06-25-2018, 06:32 AM
Pretty sure UAL sand DAL can grow over 450 if they grow mainline.Not when they maximize the contractual allotment of 70/76 seaters. Delta Connection has maxed out with 102/223 = 325 70/76 seaters + 125 50 seaters for an overall cap of 450. UAX's 70/76 seaters are capped at 103/152 = 255 until and unless UAL brings on mainline E190/5 or CS100s just like DAL did with their 717s. Both airlines have the same 450 overall cap, but it is contingent on more 76 seaters..

ORDinary
06-25-2018, 08:19 AM
It is all in the details. MR can be a powerful legal defense against DFR lawsuits, but that certainly doesn't mean that reps need to endorse a bad agreement.

Good on the pilots for making a stand, but that is the problem with the outsourcing in enables the mainline airlines to easily whipsaw their regionals against each other and move the flying to the low cost provider. The worst example of this is what happened to Comair. It gives regional pilot groups a relatively weak hand against management.

As mainline pilots we need to take advantage of the pilot/pay shortage and bring the flying back to mainline.

Thanks Captain Obvious. How come you are arguing with us about our experience with ALPA when you obviously know nothing about it? The fact that you brought up the 16 year deal and knew absolutely nothing about everything we went through in the past 5 years is pretty funny.

Route66
06-25-2018, 08:50 AM
Thanks Captain Obvious. How come you are arguing with us about our experience with ALPA when you obviously know nothing about it? The fact that you brought up the 16 year deal and knew absolutely nothing about everything we went through in the past 5 years is pretty funny.

He's an ALPA mouthpiece from a regional carrier.

Flytolive
06-25-2018, 08:51 AM
Thanks Captain Obvious. How come you are arguing with us about our experience with ALPA when you obviously know nothing about it?.You couldn't be more wrong, but nice try.

I only brought up the 16 year deal as an example of that being on the pilot group not ALPA Int'l. Clearly Eagle/Envoy has had leadership problems for a long time within their MEC that have nothing to do with ALPA Int'l.

mainlineAF
06-25-2018, 11:47 AM
Who cares about Eagle ALPA? We should be looking at UAL, DL, FXís experience with ALPA.

BOGSAT
06-25-2018, 02:30 PM
Who cares about Eagle ALPA? We should be looking at UAL, DL, FXís experience with ALPA.

^^^^^^This.

Aviatrx
06-25-2018, 03:52 PM
The reason for talking about it is, ALPA is divided. Some Eagle leadership has been bad, but recently pretty good. Most pilots that have spent at least the last decade with ALPA are happy to be working for an in house operation that can better represent their needs

Flytolive
06-25-2018, 04:31 PM
Some Eagle leadership has been bad, but recently pretty good. Most pilots that have spent at least the last decade with ALPA are happy to be working for an in house operation that can better represent their needsJust so I have this straight. Eagle leadership has been inconsistent. ALPA pilot groups at United and Delta are at the top of the heap so you are favor the APA. Got it.

jcountry
06-25-2018, 05:36 PM
The reason for talking about it is, ALPA is divided. Some Eagle leadership has been bad, but recently pretty good. Most pilots that have spent at least the last decade with ALPA are happy to be working for an in house operation that can better represent their needs

This is the core problem with ALPA.

There is no one union which can fairly represent the interests of Cargo, Legacy, LCCs, and regionals. The fact that they try to claim to be doing all that shows just how unethical they are.

Flytolive
06-25-2018, 06:22 PM
There is no one union which can fairly represent the interests of Cargo, Legacy, LCCs, and regionals.Hmmm. FDX, DAL, UAL, EDV, ENY, JBU & SPA are all doing pretty well. Looks like all evidence to the contrary.

SheepDogg
06-25-2018, 08:32 PM
This is the core problem with ALPA.

There is no one union which can fairly represent the interests of Cargo, Legacy, LCCs, and regionals. The fact that they try to claim to be doing all that shows just how unethical they are.

I can't tell you how many times I was told, ALPA isn't a union it's an ASSOCIATION of Unions. It gives the faÁade of collective unity but in reality, every man ( or MEC ) for itself. Plus you get to add in National Agendas and Corruption to our preexisting MEC level Agendas and Corruption. No thank you.

Name User
06-25-2018, 09:13 PM
ALPA sold out the TWA guys in an attempt to bribe APA to merge with ALPA afterward.

Personally it would take an act of God for me to vote for a union that knowingly sold out an entire pilot group THEY REPRESENTED in order to get more dues money.

Seriously, f* ALPA and the horse they rode in on. No I'm not ex-TWA.

BackintheLPA
06-26-2018, 02:55 AM
Wait till you get to pay for a $35,000 oil painting of the next president of ALPA. Thatís what they paid for Lee Moakís portrait. Talk to the Delta guys, a significant number were pushing for an in-house union because they were sick of ALPA and the corrupt spending. The grass is always greener some where else.

Al Czervik
06-26-2018, 03:03 AM
Wait till you get to pay for a $35,000 oil painting of the next president of ALPA. Thatís what they paid for Lee Moakís portrait. Talk to the Delta guys, a significant number were pushing for an in-house union because they were sick of ALPA and the corrupt spending. The grass is always greener some where else.

One DL pilot could swing that painting with PS.

Route66
06-26-2018, 03:57 AM
ALPA sold out the TWA guys in an attempt to bribe APA to merge with ALPA afterward.

Personally it would take an act of God for me to vote for a union that knowingly sold out an entire pilot group THEY REPRESENTED in order to get more dues money.

Seriously, f* ALPA and the horse they rode in on. No I'm not ex-TWA.

Iím with you. LUS falls into that boat as well, just not as bad. Without a national seniority structure there is no ďunionĒ.

Route66
06-26-2018, 03:58 AM
Wait till you get to pay for a $35,000 oil painting of the next president of ALPA. Thatís what they paid for Lee Moakís portrait. Talk to the Delta guys, a significant number were pushing for an in-house union because they were sick of ALPA and the corrupt spending. The grass is always greener some where else.

Thereís the truth of it.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 04:11 AM
Without a national seniority structure there is no “union”.Then your dream would of no pilot unions would have come true. Fortunately, you are just spewing more nonsense. Sure a national seniority list would be great, but good luck trying to convince pilots to do it. And the devil is in the details of what it takes to get on the list, but please give us your detailed plan.

The airline landscape has changed dramatically with consolidation. The only question is whether pilots are smart enough to take advantage on the new and far more reliable revenue/profit streams.

Regionalsuck
06-26-2018, 07:08 AM
Who cares about Eagle ALPA? We should be looking at UAL, DL, FX’s experience with ALPA.

You should care, They are the SAME people within the same dysfunctional "association" running things you want to throw your money at hoping for a hail mary savior. There is zero unity between ALPA groups. Everything we need can be done in house, do we need some house cleaning? Sure. But screw ALPA. Look at SWA, they have by far the best QOL of any Airline even for junior pilots, excellent pay for the 737, and big profit sharing checks, all done without ALPA. Why don't you throw them into your comparisons?


From Lee Moak to us at the time:

"The Association will not permit whipsawing of its FFD pilot groups. Specifically, the undersigned MEC chairmen affirm that they do not support the creation of different contract provisions that apply in the future only to new pilots (commonly known as “B- Scales”). The undersigned recognize that the prevention of B-Scales has been a top priority of the Association for more than 20 years, and they continue to support the Association's existing policies and elimination of disparate treatment of pilots".

Yet, at the exact same time ALPA national was trying to push us into accepting a B-scale.

------------------------------------------
Fellow DFW Pilots,

On Thursday, June 27, the MEC convened to meet with the new American Airlines Group leadership to include Scott Kirby, who will be the president of the new American Airlines. What was said in that meeting cannot be broadcast, as it was in executive session. What happened near the end of the day is what I would like to share with you.

Over the last several days and especially yesterday, MEC members have been the recipient of constant and incessant arguments about the need to continue negotiating with management to amend our CBA. Sadly, in contravention to clear direction by ALPA policy, our Executive Vice President, Tom Maxwell, and the ALPA Vice President of Administration, Bill Couette, both urged the MEC to continue to negotiate. Kelly and I were increasingly frustrated at the attempt at persuasion.

Just prior to the vote to determine whether we would continue to negotiate with management, Kelly and I discussed the possibility of forcing our MEC leadership to take ownership of their heartfelt convictions and put their “money where their mouth is.” The only way to do this was to use parliamentary procedure. Kelly and I decided that Kelly would abstain from the vote. The result was a four-to-four tie, giving the MEC chairman the option to break the tie with his vote. When this occurred, there was a visceral reaction from our MEC chairman and vice chairman. Tony became agitated and angry and declared that it was the MEC's responsibility—not his—to make this decision. Ultimately, Tony did not cast his vote to move it forward. That single act told Kelly and me more than we needed to know.

What we did not expect was a national officer to make a ruling that relieved Tony of his obligation to break the tie. After the vote to cease negotiations failed, the MEC crafted very narrow guidelines for our MEC Negotiating Committee to follow. These guidelines are in keeping with our beliefs about the industry and where we wish to go. Please do not take the split vote on ceasing all negotiations as an indication that the MEC is completely divided as it once was. We are not. The new status reps on the MEC agree with us on many issues, and we feel that when the time comes, they will make the right and best choice for this pilot group.

Neither Kelly nor I wished to tell the company to "Go to hell!" If there is a possibility that we could make this airline a viable place to earn a living and raise our families as it has been, it was and is our obligation to listen. We also have an obligation to hold a standard as elected union representatives. Despite the urgings of our MEC leadership and two national officers, we believe that a B-scale wage at any airline will be detrimental to both American Eagle and the rest of the industry. We have no stomach for pulling up the ladder because we have what we needed. Any subsequent vote will reflect that sentiment.

If Kelly and I come to a point where we believe that the positives for our pilot group far outweigh the negative effects of a B scale, we will come to you for guidance.

ORDinary
06-26-2018, 07:20 AM
Who cares about Eagle ALPA? We should be looking at UAL, DL, FXís experience with ALPA.

None of what I said was Eagle ALPA. It was ALPA National.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 07:25 AM
Kelly and I were increasingly frustrated at the attempt at persuasion.

Kelly and I discussed the possibility of forcing our MEC leadership to take ownership of their heartfelt convictions and put their “money where their mouth is.” The only way to do this was to use parliamentary procedure. Kelly and I decided that Kelly would abstain from the vote. The result was a four-to-four tie, giving the MEC chairman the option to break the tie with his vote.

Neither Kelly nor I wished to tell the company to "Go to hell!"

If Kelly and I come to a point where we believe that the positives for our pilot group far outweigh the negative effects of a B scale, we will come to you for guidance.I love it. These two pilot representatives abrogated their responsibilities at a critical moment. They couldn't stand the heat so they punted, and you want to blame this on ALPA Int'l. That's rich.

We also have an obligation to hold a standard as elected union representatives.True, but you two completely shirked your responsibilities. Amateur hour.

Thanks for posting. Very enlightening.

ORDinary
06-26-2018, 07:27 AM
I can't tell you how many times I was told, ALPA isn't a union it's an ASSOCIATION of Unions. It gives the faÁade of collective unity but in reality, every man ( or MEC ) for itself. Plus you get to add in National Agendas and Corruption to our preexisting MEC level Agendas and Corruption. No thank you.

We keep saying this but they don't hear it. Maybe they need it repeated a few more times: ALPA is not a union, it is an association of separate unions. So AA would still have its own separate union from DL, UAL, etc. We would merely be joining our union into an association with other unions.

Despite my bad experience with ALPA National, I would be willing to listen to possible benefits for joining that association (like lobbying in a bigger group in Washington), but one of them is not increased bargaining power, not unless ALPA completely rewrites its bylaws. I am pro-union but I haven't seen any real benefits posted here for us joining ALPA.

ORDinary
06-26-2018, 07:31 AM
They couldn't stand the heat so they punted, and you want to blame this on ALPA Int'l. That's rich.

Dude. That was the B-scale vote. I didn't even bring that up. I was talking about the first "Comair 2" vote. I thought you said you knew all about our recent history.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 07:37 AM
Dude. That was the B-scale vote. I didn't even bring that up. I was talking about the first "Comair 2" vote.I wasn't directing my comments to you.

Allegheny
06-26-2018, 08:09 AM
A very telling "gaff" from ALPA occurred during the time when USAPA was organizing the US Airways pilots. ALPA determined that, in particular, the PHL ALPA reps of council 94, were in fact in support of USAPA.



ALPA national held a hearing to determine if council 94 should be placed in "trusteeship" as determined and defined by Section 302 of LMRDA. ALPA had every right to do this but it was what was said in that trusteeship hearing the matters.



The full hearing was transcribed by a duly certified court reporter.

Then Delta MEC Chairman, and later ALPA president Lee Moak, stated: “Several years ago when I stood in this Body, or in the back of the room here, and the solution to the airline business was that if US Air would just go away we would be able to affect pricing in the Northeast Corridor. We would hear that at meetings like this.” [page 384, Certified Transcript-Air Line Pilots Association 101st Executive Board meeting (special), (Council 41 Trusteeship), March 28, 2008]





The problem is that the future President of ALPA national Lee Moak, was stating that it was better if US Air would just go away. These guys want us to pay 1.9% to an organization that wanted my company to fail and go away? How about Duke Spelacy at Pan AM? How about the TWA pilots?

ALPA's history is littered with the corpses of airlines that ALPA itself had a hand in helping to kill.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 09:04 AM
Then Delta MEC Chairman, and later ALPA president Lee Moak, stated: ďSeveral years agowhen I stood in this Body, or in the back of theroom here, and the solution to the airline businesswas that if US Air would just go away we would beable to affect pricing in the Northeast Corridor. Wewould hear that at meetings like this.Ē[page 384, Certified Transcript-Air Line Pilots Association 101st Executive Board meeting (special), (Council 41 Trusteeship), March 28, 2008]Just like different pilot groups were lobbying against UAL from getting the ATSB loan guarantees.

Guess what? People are selfish especially when they are scared. Get over it and focus on the task at hand.

Regionalsuck
06-26-2018, 10:27 AM
I love it. These two pilot representatives abrogated their responsibilities at a critical moment. They couldn't stand the heat so they punted, and you want to blame this on ALPA Int'l. That's rich.



Why was ALPA national putting pressure on us to accept a B scale and more concessions on an already bad bankruptcy agreement?

Supposedly they are against B scales.. lol

Either way, our pilot group voted it down. Just so another ALPA group could come in and gobble up a concessionary deal, wrecking our airline in the process. Displacing people out of their homes/seats/upgrades all across the country. Triggering more base closures, backwards movement and a loss of over 1000 pilots in an already dreadful decade of career stagnation.

Lovely group that ALPA is.. had the benefit of paying an association thousands and thousands of dollars to assist effing us over and backstab us instead of us all sticking together and protecting us like a true union should. You think we would actually want to join that cesspool of dysfunction, backstabbing and bloated salaries ever again? There are thousands of us affected over the past decade and beyond that want no part of them ever again, and rightly so.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 10:39 AM
Why was ALPA national putting pressure on us to accept a B scale and more concessions on an already bad bankruptcy agreement? You need to reread the letter as that's not even what these two 'profiles in courage' reps claimed. Couette was advocating continuing to negotiate which is what you all ended up doing.

Either way, our pilot group voted it down. Just so another ALPA group could come in and gobble it up wrecking our airline in the process. Displacing people out of their homes/seats/upgrades and all over the country.Yep, the regionals have little leverage, but that is not ALPA's fault other than the mainline pilot groups voting to outsource regional flying in the first place.

This is a vivid illustration of misplaced blame. The two reps could not have been more irresponsible and you want to blame ALPA Int'l. Sorry, the issues were obviously internal to your MEC, that BTW was subsidized by FDX, DAL & UAL pilots.

Aviatrx
06-26-2018, 12:43 PM
The Fee For Departure airlines make up more than half the flying for the airlines. Most of those airlines are ALPA, and bring a good amount of money and more volunteers. Tell me why these airlines donít have leverage if they are all working together so well?

ORDinary
06-26-2018, 12:54 PM
Flytolive: what do you see as the benefits for AA pilots if we would join ALPA? Please be specific.

Flytolive
06-26-2018, 01:14 PM
The Fee For Departure airlines make up more than half the flying for the airlines. Most of those airlines are ALPA, and bring a good amount of money and more volunteers. Tell me why these airlines don’t have leverage if they are all working together so well?Because regionals' revenue streams are completely dependent on the airlines they feed and each of those mainline airlines have multiple regionals to which they can distribute their feeder flying. The regionals often don't even own their airplanes and even if they did they couldn't get the financing for them without a CPA of some duration. Regionals don't have their own reservation systems and are pawns of AAL, DAL & UAL.

Sniper66
06-27-2018, 02:40 PM
The Fee For Departure airlines make up more than half the flying for the airlines. Most of those airlines are ALPA, and bring a good amount of money and more volunteers. Tell me why these airlines don’t have leverage if they are all working together so well?



10500 or so alpa regional pilots with the average annual alpa dues
Per pilot to be $1140 dollars multiply that by 10500 or so pilots you get 11.95 million annually

That’s less than 25 percent of what delta pilots pay annually on union dues

ALPA national budgets north of 20 million annually for the regionals and that’s more than 9 million dollars than they get. That does not include strike funds easy 2 million for each regional if need it.


Numbers don’t lie

Sniper66
06-27-2018, 02:47 PM
Flytolive: what do you see as the benefits for AA pilots if we would join ALPA? Please be specific.





Check your working rules and you will have the answer
It will cost you a little more annually on dues even though it will probably drop to 1.5 percent dues from 1.9 if American turns alpa.


Is it worthy to you ? Your choice.

By the way ..... isnít the APA that contracts ALPA every contract cycle for resources advise etc ? They do ! do some research or ask your reps ... I wonder why ?

Arado 234
06-27-2018, 05:14 PM
Who has a better contract on the cargo side? FedEx (ALPA) or UPS (IPA)? Is it safe to say that today ALPA carriers have a better contract than their in-house union counterparts?

SheepDogg
06-27-2018, 05:17 PM
Lovely group that ALPA is.. had the benefit of paying an association thousands and thousands of dollars to assist effing us over and backstab us instead of us all sticking together and protecting us like a true union should. You think we would actually want to join that cesspool of dysfunction, backstabbing and bloated salaries ever again? There are thousands of us affected over the past decade and beyond that want no part of them ever again, and rightly so.

Every time I hear some guy say that ALPA treats there mainline companies better/different than they do their regional companies, I think of the classic scenario of the woman with low self esteem that gets into an affair with an married man and thinks that even though a cheating alcoholic that beats his wife, that somehow it's going to be different with her. With her, he going to be a kind loving breadwinner and never cheat on her.

ORDinary
06-28-2018, 05:28 AM
Check your working rules and you will have the answer
It will cost you a little more annually on dues even though it will probably drop to 1.5 percent dues from 1.9 if American turns alpa.


Is it worthy to you ? Your choice.

By the way ..... isnít the APA that contracts ALPA every contract cycle for resources advise etc ? They do ! do some research or ask your reps ... I wonder why ?

But how will ALPA get us better work rules?

RyanP
06-28-2018, 05:39 AM
Check your working rules and you will have the answer
It will cost you a little more annually on dues even though it will probably drop to 1.5 percent dues from 1.9 if American turns alpa.


Is it worthy to you ? Your choice.

By the way ..... isn’t the APA that contracts ALPA every contract cycle for resources advise etc ? They do ! do some research or ask your reps ... I wonder why ?

It isn't worth it to me to ever give them another dime. Or to ever help pay some douches 600K salary that tells me we need to accept concessions because of the industry struggles at the time.

Who has a better average QOL, more average days off and makes more money in a 737 for less time away from home? It's not just pay rates.

ALPA-DAL/UAL or SWA (in house)? The answer is almost always SWA. They get 15 days off on RESERVE. Line holders average 17-19 days off. They have tons of FO's making over 200K on a narrrow body, They get big profit sharing checks.

We don't need ALPA. Same results can be had without them. I don't need to pay some secretaries and office assistants 120K to answer phones and send out useless magazines.

Sniper66
06-28-2018, 05:45 AM
It isn't worth it to me to ever give them another dime. Or to ever help pay some douches 600K salary that tells me we need to accept concessions because of the industry struggles at the time.

Who has a better average QOL, more average days off and makes more money in a 737 for less time away from home? It's not just pay rates.

ALPA-DAL/UAL or SWA (in house)? The answer is almost always SWA. They get 15 days off on RESERVE. Line holders average 17-19 days off. They have tons of FO's making over 200K on a narrrow body, They get big profit sharing checks.

We don't need ALPA. Same results can be had without them. I don't need to pay some secretaries and office assistants 120K to answer phones.









SWA pilot application window is open!

Flytolive
06-28-2018, 07:29 AM
Who has a better average QOL, more average days off and makes more money in a 737 for less time away from home? It's not just pay rates.

ALPA-DAL/UAL or SWA (in house)? The answer is almost always SWA. They get 15 days off on RESERVE. Line holders average 17-19 days off. They have tons of FO's making over 200K on a narrrow body, They get big profit sharing checks. How adept you are at using apples and oranges when it works for you.

SWA's QOL to which your refer has everything to do with their business model and almost NOTHING to do with SWAPA. They get more days off because the are still to a large degree a point to point carrier vice a hub and spoke, network airline. You might have noticed they only have one aircraft type. They maximize aircraft utilization by keeping the plane, the pilots and FAs together as much as possible while minimizing the aircraft's time on the ground. This means the pilots basically fly an AM or PM shift of up to 8 hours/day and therefore have more days off.

They have the best scope in the industry because there is little management desire to outsource because they don't need or want RJs because that is not part of their business model either. That might change, but for now that and and not SWAPA is the reason for these contractual advantages.

But if you insist on comparing apples to oranges I'll put the int'l flying QOL and time off up against anything SWA has to offer. The proof is in the pudding. That flying goes at a seniority premium compared to 737/320 left seat flying at the network airlines.

ORDinary
06-28-2018, 07:46 AM
What is it about joining AA's pilot union into an association with other unions that would give us any benefit when we negotiate? It is circumstantial to say "but look at DL and UAL" and give all of the credit to ALPA national.

I'm not saying that there isn't a benefit, frankly I don't know and there might be, but nobody clamoring for ALPA has actually given a real reason why, and that's a little suspicious. Why not make your actual argument?

RyanP
06-28-2018, 08:03 AM
How adept you are at using apples and oranges when it works for you.

Clearly, I know they are different business models.

But how is comparing a contract at AA vs DAL any different? Completely different management styles. One is hostile toward employees and treats them as a burden and a cost unit, while the other values and respects employees and acnowledges they are the reason they exist. Alpa won't change that.


But if you insist on comparing apples to oranges I'll put the int'l flying QOL and time off up against anything SWA has to offer. The proof is in the pudding. That flying goes at a seniority premium compared to 737/320 left seat flying at the network airlines.

"Maybe".. I wouldn't know but I doubt it anyway from what I have seen on their forum. You have to be here for a lifetime to ever touch those select International schedules here. How many YEARS to even sniff at one of those nice schedules in DFW, even as an FO? Unlike the other place I mentioned where day 1 on the line as a new hire you are getting MINIMUM of 15 days off.

Top 5-10% in each seat on the seniority list have decent QOL no matter where they are. What about everybody else?

mainlineAF
06-28-2018, 08:29 AM
Clearly, I know they are different business models.

But how is comparing a contract at AA vs DAL any different? Completely different management styles. One is hostile toward employees and treats them as a burden and a cost unit, while the other values and respects employees and acnowledges they are the reason they exist. Alpa won't change that.



"Maybe".. I wouldn't know but I doubt it anyway from what I have seen on their forum. You have to be here for a lifetime to ever touch those select International schedules here. How many YEARS to even sniff at one of those nice schedules in DFW, even as an FO? Unlike the other place I mentioned where day 1 on the line as a new hire you are getting MINIMUM of 15 days off.

Top 5-10% in each seat on the seniority list have decent QOL no matter where they are. What about everybody else?



Youíre comparing a global hub and spike airline with multiple fleet types to a mostly domestic, single fleet, point to point airline?

RyanP
06-28-2018, 09:48 AM
You’re comparing a global hub and spike airline with multiple fleet types to a mostly domestic, single fleet, point to point airline?

That isn't the point. I comparing an airline that has an "in house" union and didn't need ALPA to get good contracts. They have better things than the bigger ALPA carriers have.

Again, nobody can provide a single shred of any compelling argument about ALPA doing anything for us better than we can do for ourselves except charge us more money. Where is it? All I see is look at Delta and Fedex? So? Different management, they don't hate their pilots and historically try to screw over employee groups at every chance they get. How does that translate to ALPA helping us? It is already a proven fact that ALPA is individual groups for themselves. So how are they going to change anything here for the better? UAL is ALPA, their contract isn't all that great either.

Sniper66
06-28-2018, 10:26 AM
That isn't the point. I comparing an airline that has an "in house" union and didn't need ALPA to get good contracts. They have better things than the bigger ALPA carriers have.

Again, nobody can provide a single shred of any compelling argument about ALPA doing anything for us better than we can do for ourselves except charge us more money. Where is it? All I see is look at Delta and Fedex? So? Different management, they don't hate their pilots and historically try to screw over employee groups at every chance they get. How does that translate to ALPA helping us? It is already a proven fact that ALPA is individual groups for themselves. So how are they going to change anything here for the better? UAL is ALPA, their contract isn't all that great either.








You keep pointing good versus bad management

Please check during the last SWA how was management towards SWAPA ..it was a fight and long overdue contract
Management gives you nothing ( No Herb anymore)
You only get what you negotiate and that’s it.


Are you a management pilot ? Then I understand your argument of comparing apples with oranges

Last time I checked ALPA is not actively campaigning at Americans property , if they did you would have all the pros of ALPA on pamphlets

You can say what you want but the fact of the matter is that you got your raise last year and the little profit sharing because of ALPA contracts to be in line as far as pay
Work rules, is another thing, you will get those eventually I hope and if you do, that also will be because of alpa contracts at United and Delta

UAL contract ? I suggest you read it and how much soft pay,deadhead middle seat, first class deadhead , rates on aircraft etc in comparison with AMR
A UAL pilot will make easy 15 percent of a w2 over AMR pilot on same equipment and seniority from work rules alone
Or you dispute that too

Can you tell me how good USAPA did as an in-house Union?
Elaborate on that and tell me to educate me please
Anyway good luck

Flytolive
06-28-2018, 10:28 AM
Why not make your actual argument?

The core reasons are political power and unity.

Pilots are possibly the least likely unionists imaginable. Our independence, conservatism and often times military background don't lend themselves to being amenable to collective bargaining, but without it we would be paid a fraction of what we make for far worse working conditions and a fraction of the job security. So our pragmatism overcomes our nature.

The whole reason David Behncke moved ALPA from Chicago to DC was because our fate is completely dependent on political protections provided on a myriad of issues from collective bargaining rights, trade, safety, regulations, etc. ALPA's AFL-CIO affiliation is an enormous force multiplier especially in times of need. That in conjunction with ALPA's outstanding Governmental Affairs lobbying operations and the pilot-partisan (bipartisan) $2.3M/year ALPA-PAC it has produced unparalleled political clout for their size. APA + ALPA makes the for an even stronger political force, and we will need it.

ALPA also brings a strong financial balance sheet with $62M in the MCF and big MECs operating with surpluses. I assume the APA is doing well financially also. The combined financial strength would only be enhanced and dues rates would decrease at ALPA near what the APA is collecting. Everyone would benefit from the enhanced financial security of the union.

Finally, ALPA provides the best combination of strength, expertise and legal/financial counsel while providing MECs with the independence that pilots demand. Everybody makes mistakes. Both DALPA and UALPA fell under injunctions, but the APA foolishly flouted the judge's direction and got fined $45M. Such a blunder is far less likely in ALPA and also more survivable. ALPA will be able to better attract legal and financial expertise and the enhanced information sharing will only improve the chances of contractual improvement and standardization. This would better facilitate Behncke's long-term goal of taking pilot compensation out of the competitive equation.

The overwhelming advantages of the APA coming back to ALPA are self-evident from the pilot side. If you have any doubt just go ask someone in AAL senior management if you can get them to be honest with you.

Sniper66
06-28-2018, 10:49 AM
The core reasons are political power and unity.

Pilots are possibly the least likely unionists imaginable. Our independence, conservatism and often times military background don't lend themselves to being amenable to collective bargaining, but without it we would be paid a fraction of what we make for far worse working conditions and a fraction of the job security. So our pragmatism overcomes our nature.

The whole reason David Behncke moved ALPA from Chicago to DC was because our fate is completely dependent on political protections provided on a myriad of issues from collective bargaining rights, trade, safety, regulations, etc. ALPA's AFL-CIO affiliation is an enormous force multiplier especially in times of need. That in conjunction with ALPA's outstanding Governmental Affairs lobbying operations and the pilot-partisan (bipartisan) $2.3M/year ALPA-PAC it has produced unparalleled political clout for their size. APA + ALPA makes the for an even stronger political force, and we will need it.

ALPA also brings a strong financial balance sheet with $62M in the MCF and big MECs operating with surpluses. I assume the APA is doing well financially also. The combined financial strength would only be enhanced and dues rates would decrease at ALPA near what the APA is collecting. Everyone would benefit from the enhanced financial security of the union.

Finally, ALPA provides the best combination of strength, expertise and legal/financial counsel while providing MECs with the independence that pilots demand. Everybody makes mistakes. Both DALPA and UALPA fell under injunctions, but the APA foolishly flouted the judge's direction and got fined $45M. Such a blunder is far less likely in ALPA and also more survivable. ALPA will be able to better attract legal and financial expertise and the enhanced information sharing will only improve the chances of contractual improvement and standardization. This would better facilitate Behncke's long-term goal of taking pilot compensation out of the competitive equation.

The overwhelming advantages of the APA coming back to ALPA are self-evident from the pilot side. If you have any doubt just go ask someone in AAL senior management if you can get them to be honest with you.






Very well said

Thank you !

RyanP
06-28-2018, 02:43 PM
.

Last time I checked ALPA is not actively campaigning at Americans property , if they did you would have all the pros of ALPA on pamphlets

I don't need a pamphlet to know all I need to know about them. I was a dues paying member for 11+ years. Saw and had plenty of correspondance with ALPA, senior leadership and their "expert" lol, legal team. I am still dealing with them now over $$$ issues due to their attorneys being useless in the past and I don't even work there anymore. Still have issues with their billing of dues snafus as well wanting pilots to mail them money because they claim they didn't collect properly in the past from our entire pilot group, way after the fact. Talking to other ex ALPA pilots here, many are dealing with the same issues as I am with ALPA, still. Now, The ALPA "volunteers" are and have always been helpful in getting things done and I do appreciate them. Things that the ALPA attorneys either didn't care about or told me they couldn't/wouldn't do anything about. Basically they just say deal with it, even in the case of blatant errors. Sad when untrained in Legal anything pilot volunteers can get things done that an ALPA attorney can't/won't. I'd be better off with my own legal services.


UAL contract ? I suggest you read it and how much soft pay,deadhead middle seat, first class deadhead , rates on aircraft etc in comparison with AMR
A UAL pilot will make easy 15 percent of a w2 over AMR pilot on same equipment and seniority from work rules alone
Or you dispute that too
Did I say our contract is better than UAL? No. I said it isn't that great either. I should hope they have a better contract than us, we are currently operating under a crap bankruptcy deal modified into this JCBA we are currently under. When is the last time UAL filed bankruptcy and gutted contracts? 2002?

All of this talk is pointless anyway. We aren't getting ALPA anytime soon. We need to focus on fixing whatever issues with APA we do have and securing major improvements.

Sniper66
06-28-2018, 09:37 PM
I don't need a pamphlet to know all I need to know about them. I was a dues paying member for 11+ years. Saw and had plenty of correspondance with ALPA, senior leadership and their "expert" lol, legal team. I am still dealing with them now over $$$ issues due to their attorneys being useless in the past and I don't even work there anymore. Still have issues with their billing of dues snafus as well wanting pilots to mail them money because they claim they didn't collect properly in the past from our entire pilot group, way after the fact. Talking to other ex ALPA pilots here, many are dealing with the same issues as I am with ALPA, still. Now, The ALPA "volunteers" are and have always been helpful in getting things done and I do appreciate them. Things that the ALPA attorneys either didn't care about or told me they couldn't/wouldn't do anything about. Basically they just say deal with it, even in the case of blatant errors. Sad when untrained in Legal anything pilot volunteers can get things done that an ALPA attorney can't/won't. I'd be better off with my own legal services.


Did I say our contract is better than UAL? No. I said it isn't that great either. I should hope they have a better contract than us, we are currently operating under a crap bankruptcy deal modified into this JCBA we are currently under. When is the last time UAL filed bankruptcy and gutted contracts? 2002?

All of this talk is pointless anyway. We aren't getting ALPA anytime soon. We need to focus on fixing whatever issues with APA we do have and securing major improvements.






Dues paying for 11 years ? AE or USAPA let us know so we can talk about it
You signed and voted your 16 year contract not ALPA if AE, and you chose the 7 no raise contract with USAPA
Your MEC did which is YOU
Blame accordingly please
I am anxiously awaiting APAs major improvements
Please share

SheepDogg
06-29-2018, 11:24 AM
Don't waste your time on these guys RyanP. They are hopelessly ignorant of the true nature of ALPA. It will never happen anyway. Way too many pilots here that were actual ALPA Members that will never allow their interests to be highjacked by that bloated self-servicing employment mob ever again.

RyanP
06-29-2018, 01:18 PM
Dues paying for 11 years ? AE or USAPA let us know so we can talk about it
You signed and voted your 16 year contract not ALPA if AE, and you chose the 7 no raise contract with USAPA
Your MEC did which is YOU
Blame accordingly please
I am anxiously awaiting APAs major improvements
Please share

What are you even talking about.. wasn't there for that and never worked for USAIR.

Sniper66
06-29-2018, 01:26 PM
Don't waste your time on these guys RyanP. They are hopelessly ignorant of the true nature of ALPA. It will never happen anyway. Way too many pilots here that were actual ALPA Members that will never allow their interests to be highjacked by that bloated self-servicing employment mob ever again.




Ok got it Eagle sheep , nice name haha
Best of luck to you

16 years dude really 16 years and blamed alpa

Sniper66
06-29-2018, 01:27 PM
What are you even talking about.. wasn't there for that and never worked for USAIR.




Eagle got it
11 years paying dues ,,got flow through lucky you
See post above I am sure you know about your 16 year longest contract signed by alpa mec ever at eagle
Best of luck


And yes ALPA is the best choice or follow the ALPA contracts for getting a raise ,,

RyanP
06-29-2018, 01:27 PM
Don't waste your time on these guys RyanP. They are hopelessly ignorant of the true nature of ALPA. It will never happen anyway. Way too many pilots here that were actual ALPA Members that will never allow their interests to be highjacked by that bloated self-servicing employment mob ever again.

True, had enough of this pointless thread anyway. Virtually anyone and everyone you ask here with actual ALPA membership experience doesn't want it ever again, which says it all...

Smoke Toliet
06-29-2018, 01:38 PM
Don't waste your time on these guys RyanP. They are hopelessly ignorant of the true nature of ALPA. It will never happen anyway. Way too many pilots here that were actual ALPA Members that will never allow their interests to be highjacked by that bloated self-servicing employment mob ever again.

I was ALPA for 8 years at my regional and Iíd gladly go back if given the option. Until youíve been USAPA and now APA for the last 5 years you have no F ing clue what your talking about.

SheepDogg
06-29-2018, 02:28 PM
I was ALPA for 8 years at my regional and Iíd gladly go back if given the option. Until youíve been USAPA and now APA for the last 5 years you have no F ing clue what your talking about.

The only thing that tells me, is how bad USAPA was, not how good ALPA is. A point, of which, I agree with you on. Regardless, the fact remains, no matter how much you curse and stamp your feet, it will never change the fact that there are enough current APA members who have their own personal experiences with ALPA to ensure that we will never vote in ALPA representation here. Nothing that you or I say, will change that inevitability. The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you will be about to overcome your coping disability. Until then, keep throwing a temper tantrum and cursing, it's entertaining. Reminds me of when my kids were young.

SheepDogg
06-29-2018, 02:34 PM
Ok got it Eagle sheep , nice name haha
Best of luck to you

16 years dude really 16 years and blamed alpa

I don't blame ALPA for anything. That 16 year contract was probably the best thing that ever happened to Eagle. Still doesn't make ALPA a good option here. Eagle Sheep, that's cute. Got any your mama jokes?

Happyflyer
06-29-2018, 11:00 PM
Why was ALPA national putting pressure on us to accept a B scale and more concessions on an already bad bankruptcy agreement?

Supposedly they are against B scales.. lol

Either way, our pilot group voted it down. Just so another ALPA group could come in and gobble up a concessionary deal, wrecking our airline in the process. Displacing people out of their homes/seats/upgrades all across the country. Triggering more base closures, backwards movement and a loss of over 1000 pilots in an already dreadful decade of career stagnation.

Lovely group that ALPA is.. had the benefit of paying an association thousands and thousands of dollars to assist effing us over and backstab us instead of us all sticking together and protecting us like a true union should. You think we would actually want to join that cesspool of dysfunction, backstabbing and bloated salaries ever again? There are thousands of us affected over the past decade and beyond that want no part of them ever again, and rightly so.

I think it's obvious Envoy was over confident in how strong you were with AMR.
When Doug took over he sourced your, scoped flying sold for flow, to TSA, XJT, PDT, PSA, and Compass. AMR had recently signed deals with ASA, and RAH for Eagle branded flying. That's 7 regional carriers that Envoy could have been broken up into much like Comair.
The honest question is how are you so certain that Envoy would not have been Comaired? Be it a mistake or not, how do you know it wouldn't have happened?

Route66
06-30-2018, 03:06 AM
The only thing that tells me, is how bad USAPA was, not how good ALPA is. A point, of which, I agree with you on. Regardless, the fact remains, no matter how much you curse and stamp your feet, it will never change the fact that there are enough current APA members who have their own personal experiences with ALPA to ensure that we will never vote in ALPA representation here. Nothing that you or I say, will change that inevitability. The sooner you come to terms with that, the sooner you will be about to overcome your coping disability. Until then, keep throwing a temper tantrum and cursing, it's entertaining. Reminds me of when my kids were young.

USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me. Doesnít change anything. ALPA, USAPA, APA, etc. maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.

Not good for the future.

Flytolive
06-30-2018, 04:28 AM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA ...maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.You are projecting your non-reality based beliefs on others.

Smoke Toliet
06-30-2018, 10:20 AM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me. Doesnít change anything. ALPA, USAPA, APA, etc. maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.

Not good for the future.

The only thing USAPA accomplished was protect mid to late 80s USAir East hires from the Nic. Which ended being successful as the Nic was never used. However it came at a huge eye popping financial cost to those guys in overall earnings.
Not gonna debate whether it was worth it or not...thatís for you East/West guys to fight over. But to say USAPA accomplished anything negotiating with the company or cared about the bottom guys is completely delusional. Even the senior guys about to retire I fly with now shake their heads when they think about how more money their 401k would have had had it not been for the USAPA experiment.

SheepDogg
06-30-2018, 05:43 PM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me.

I have actually found that most (well all) that I have talked with, have nothing good to say about USAPA. But it's a moot point really. It doesn't change the fact that ALPA will not be voted in here any time soon. That doesn't mean that many who would never vote ALPA in, wouldn't like to see some changes in APA, myself included. I fully support cleaning house in our LECs and MEC and believe that we will be better served by an in-house union with new leadership. I truly hope that when you realize that your coworkers are not going to support your efforts to tear down our current house to build a new one, that you will whole heartedly support the repair effort to our current house.

Route66
06-30-2018, 06:08 PM
OK. So what. Whatever. What I DO know is this group is so fractionalized nobodyís opinions match.

BOGSAT
06-30-2018, 06:51 PM
Toss it out for a vote and let the chips fall were they may. At least then all of our fragmented groups get a choice of representation.

Al Czervik
07-01-2018, 01:24 AM
OK. So what. Whatever. What I DO know is this group is so fractionalized nobodyís opinions match.

..........Yet

Route66
07-01-2018, 03:30 AM
..........Yet

Yet.....here we are.

Smoke Toliet
07-01-2018, 03:53 AM
I have actually found that most (well all) that I have talked with, have nothing good to say about USAPA. But it's a moot point really. It doesn't change the fact that ALPA will not be voted in here any time soon. That doesn't mean that many who would never vote ALPA in, wouldn't like to see some changes in APA, myself included. I fully support cleaning house in our LECs and MEC and believe that we will be better served by an in-house union with new leadership. I truly hope that when you realize that your coworkers are not going to support your efforts to tear down our current house to build a new one, that you will whole heartedly support the repair effort to our current house.

We donít have LECs and a MEC...we have a BOD and a President. Your thinking of ALPA.
Some say APAís biggest problem is the BOD doesnít elect the president like in ALPA. Our BOD and President are like oil and water...therefore we have no clear direction or statagy in improving our pilot groupís life. Everyone is rowing in a different direction. You should probably get a little more educated on APA.

SheepDogg
07-01-2018, 05:35 AM
Toss it out for a vote and let the chips fall were they may. At least then all of our fragmented groups get a choice of representation.

This is a good point. Good leadership can guide and encourage a group toward unity, but ultimately the success of that effort comes from the resolve of each individual. Part of that resolve involves the individual's determination to support the group (whether it be their government, military command, employer, or union etc etc) even if they do not agree or support the groups goals/focus/decision in a matter, understanding that no collective group will ever appease every individual completely. If an ALPA vote can help to solidify AA pilots, helping them to move on from the past and become unified for the future, then a vote could be a good thing.

Whatever happens, I hope that all pilots, especially those who don't achieve the results they hope for, will be willing to accept the choice of the majority, and support the results. I also hold myself to that resolve. I don't believe that ALPA is the best organization to represent the interests of AA pilots but if it is voted in, it is in my best interest to support ALPA fully, than to work against its efforts. As is often the case, the ideal solution is not an option and choosing the best option available is always better than no option at all.

nAAtive
07-01-2018, 09:41 AM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me. Doesnít change anything. ALPA, USAPA, APA, etc. maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.

Not good for the future.
What contract did USAPA implement? Please do tell.

Al Czervik
07-01-2018, 04:28 PM
We donít have LECs and a MEC...we have a BOD and a President. Your thinking of ALPA.
Some say APAís biggest problem is the BOD doesnít elect the president like in ALPA. Our BOD and President are like oil and water...therefore we have no clear direction or statagy in improving our pilot groupís life. Everyone is rowing in a different direction. You should probably get a little more educated on APA.

Sounds like years and years of inbreeding.

Route66
07-02-2018, 02:08 AM
What contract did USAPA implement? Please do tell.

They didnít. The east was at war with the west. And the LAA was at war with the LTWA. And the APA negotiated a poor contract (with more money and protected their retirement) with Parker. And we got a pay raise last year with Project Ivan, a crew news negotiated pay raise I might add.

So how is the APA any better?

Count Dracula
07-02-2018, 04:04 AM
It isn't worth it to me to ever give them another dime. Or to ever help pay some douches 600K salary that tells me we need to accept concessions because of the industry struggles at the time.

Who has a better average QOL, more average days off and makes more money in a 737 for less time away from home? It's not just pay rates.

ALPA-DAL/UAL or SWA (in house)? The answer is almost always SWA. They get 15 days off on RESERVE. Line holders average 17-19 days off. They have tons of FO's making over 200K on a narrrow body, They get big profit sharing checks.

We don't need ALPA. Same results can be had without them. I don't need to pay some secretaries and office assistants 120K to answer phones and send out useless magazines.


Plan your meals accordingly


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BOGSAT
07-04-2018, 04:13 AM
This is a good point. Good leadership can guide and encourage a group toward unity, but ultimately the success of that effort comes from the resolve of each individual. Part of that resolve involves the individual's determination to support the group (whether it be their government, military command, employer, or union etc etc) even if they do not agree or support the groups goals/focus/decision in a matter, understanding that no collective group will ever appease every individual completely. If an ALPA vote can help to solidify AA pilots, helping them to move on from the past and become unified for the future, then a vote could be a good thing.

Whatever happens, I hope that all pilots, especially those who don't achieve the results they hope for, will be willing to accept the choice of the majority, and support the results. I also hold myself to that resolve. I don't believe that ALPA is the best organization to represent the interests of AA pilots but if it is voted in, it is in my best interest to support ALPA fully, than to work against its efforts. As is often the case, the ideal solution is not an option and choosing the best option available is always better than no option at all.

Truly excellent reply. Thanks.

flyinawa
07-04-2018, 10:19 AM
They didn’t. The east was at war with the west. And the LAA was at war with the LTWA. And the APA negotiated a poor contract (with more money and protected their retirement) with Parker. And we got a pay raise last year with Project Ivan, a crew news negotiated pay raise I might add.

So how is the APA any better?

Interesting you say that. With LUS and LAW, 2/3 of the group completely controlled USAPA, the union that supposedly represented 100% of our group WHILE “at war” with the other 1/3 of the group.

TWA took it in the tail cone BEFORE they became AA. While it’s safe to say APA hasn’t done TWA any favors since merging, they weren’t “at war” AFTER they were APA represented. HUGE difference.

Edit: I don’t think APA is doing a poor job representing ME, I think they are doing a poor job representing ALL OF US. I think they’re getting better but why wait for them to MAYBE figure out how to best represent us when we can go to an experienced organization with a real structure for improvement. They aren’t perfect and I swore them off once but I’m willing to consider them as an alternative.

Route66
07-04-2018, 01:49 PM
Interesting you say that. With LUS and LAW, 2/3 of the group completely controlled USAPA, the union that supposedly represented 100% of our group WHILE ďat warĒ with the other 1/3 of the group.

TWA took it in the tail cone BEFORE they became AA. While itís safe to say APA hasnít done TWA any favors since merging, they werenít ďat warĒ AFTER they were APA represented. HUGE difference.

Edit: I donít think APA is doing a poor job representing ME, I think they are doing a poor job representing ALL OF US. I think theyíre getting better but why wait for them to MAYBE figure out how to best represent us when we can go to an experienced organization with a real structure for improvement. They arenít perfect and I swore them off once but Iím willing to consider them as an alternative.

You mean like the APA represents %100 of our group or ALPA representing %100 of the LUS group. The TWA guys still arenít members of APA.

EMBFlyer
07-05-2018, 05:50 AM
You mean like the APA represents %100 of our group or ALPA representing %100 of the LUS group. The TWA guys still arenít members of APA.

All generalizations are false.

I know quite a few TWA guys that are not only members of APA, but also volunteer in positions for APA. A few of them are even Chairmen of committees.

Sliceback
07-05-2018, 02:15 PM
And the LAA was at war with the LTWA.

That is barely true and had nothing to do with the merger or our contract.

Get Real
07-05-2018, 02:36 PM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me. Doesn’t change anything. ALPA, USAPA, APA, etc. maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.

Not good for the future.

About SWAPA, Do not ever say that again please.

10 year contracts with pay freezes during record profits. Never once prepared to use to RLA. We still don’t have the retirement you got as your booby prizes for losing the A funds. We pay to park at the airport. Our medical out/loss of license stuff is an abomination. All reserve 2 hour report. Company prints money and never declared bankruptcy. We should be ahead of everyone. Yours and every other pilot group should be trying to ride our coattails now. Instead we are flounder around riding everyone else’s unless you want to blame 9/11 on ALPA or APA and snapshot the fluke period of the mid 2000’s where we led by default.

Don’t ever wish for that again! EVER!


:)

But no seriously, don’t.

TransWorld
07-05-2018, 03:29 PM
And the LAA was at war with the LTWA.

Really only regarding seniority list integration. A number of years of offset for senior and a good chunk of junior stapled. FA was 100% stapling at the bottom (35 year LTWA FA below the 1 year LAA FA.)

But most of the LTWA have long since moved on. It is what it is. No one is on furlough. Much better pay and stability of employment over the last several years has helped.

Now if you get a LTWA blood boiling, say the name of corporate raider Carl Icahn. (He was not a result of LAA.) Like fingernails on a chalkboard.

cactusmike
07-05-2018, 05:17 PM
USAPA was ten times better than ALPA and we have a very large amount of pilots who agree with me. Doesnít change anything. ALPA, USAPA, APA, etc. maybe SWAPA has the best record for union negotiations with management, everyone else is split on unions and who to follow.

Not good for the future.

I just have to call BS. The angry f/os in PHL and CLT probably agree with you but you gave up about a million dollars in earnings to avoid the Nicolau. You never got a contract nor did you accomplish anything
other than pay back all the Leonidas donations. PHX Pilots appreciated that.

There are a lot of us who would like to see ALPA. The card drive will tell if that is enough.

Route66
07-07-2018, 02:57 AM
I just have to call BS. The angry f/os in PHL and CLT probably agree with you but you gave up about a million dollars in earnings to avoid the Nicolau. You never got a contract nor did you accomplish anything
other than pay back all the Leonidas donations. PHX Pilots appreciated that.

There are a lot of us who would like to see ALPA. The card drive will tell if that is enough.

You didn’t get the Nicolau. Mission accomplished.

Janus v. AFSCME. Coming to a theater near you. Leonidas, Thanks for showing us how unions get busted up.

mainlineAF
07-07-2018, 06:59 AM
You didnít get the Nicolau. Mission accomplished.

Janus v. AFSCME. Coming to a theater near you. Leonidas, Thanks for showing us how unions get busted up.



You hate unions in general but love USAPA. Makes sense!

Flytolive
07-07-2018, 07:20 AM
You hate unions in general but love USAPA. Makes sense!Yep. Route 66 started at Piedmont and has been through the merger ringer. Bitterness often overwhelms logic.

MarineGrunt
07-07-2018, 08:46 AM
Route66 is a Jedi master at trolling you guys and you fall for it every time... :D

Route66
07-07-2018, 09:20 AM
Route66 is a Jedi master at trolling you guys and you fall for it every time... :D

Hey, "You guys" are just seeing the tip of the iceberg. Lawsuits coming against private unions soon enough. In a couple of years "nonmembers" will be able to negotiate their own contracts. Then those that think THEY deserve "super seniority" because they expected THEIR superiority to be greater than yours may get it.

USAPA tried to fix the seniority issue. The West pilots succeeded in showing everyone how to break an airline union. Keep up on current events, ya'll. Airline pilots most famous words...."That will NEVER happen".

You are right about "falling for it every time". Just a bunch of "Charlie Browns" kicking the football while Lucy HOLDS THE BALL!!! (Or maybe holds YOUR B--LLS!) There's the true of it.

GO ALPA!

Route66
07-07-2018, 09:21 AM
Yep. Route 66 started at Piedmont and has been through the merger ringer. Bitterness often overwhelms logic.

I've got mine. Talk about trolls, you don't even work for American.

Route66
07-07-2018, 09:23 AM
You hate unions in general but love USAPA. Makes sense!

I don't like unions because there are NO PRINCIPLES and NO SOPS. USAPA was the closest we got to getting DOH as an established principle back into play. USAPA lost. ALPA lost. And someday APA will lose. In the meantime I keep making the big bucks and you guys get to hold the bag. Too bad.

EMBFlyer
07-07-2018, 11:13 AM
I don't like unions because there are NO PRINCIPLES and NO SOPS. USAPA was the closest we got to getting DOH as an established principle back into play. USAPA lost. ALPA lost. And someday APA will lose. In the meantime I keep making the big bucks and you guys get to hold the bag. Too bad.

If USAPA was close, I'd hate to see what "far away" looks like!

Route66
07-07-2018, 11:43 AM
If USAPA was close, I'd hate to see what "far away" looks like!

You're going to get that "far away" with the next merger. I don't see it before I'm retired but I expect it to affect the "below the line" members. Just another "sub-group" of an already compromised pilot group.

GO ALPA!

AAL24
07-07-2018, 02:14 PM
In the meantime I keep making the big bucks and you guys get to hold the bag. Too bad.

After 14 years or so of working under the worst pay rates and QOL in the industry I sure hope you are finally making the big bucks. Any longer would have qualified as cruel and unusual punishment.

Flytolive
07-08-2018, 04:07 AM
In the meantime I keep making the big bucks and you guys get to hold the bag.That says it all.

Route66
07-09-2018, 02:10 AM
If USAPA was close, I'd hate to see what "far away" looks like!

Uh, APA and ALPA? Iíd say thatís a no brainer.

Route66
07-09-2018, 02:11 AM
That says it all.

Howís that commuter job working out for you????

cactusmike
07-09-2018, 11:48 PM
You didnít get the Nicolau. Mission accomplished.

Janus v. AFSCME. Coming to a theater near you. Leonidas, Thanks for showing us how unions get busted up.

Actually, I did. Look at my seat.

Route66
07-10-2018, 05:13 AM
Actually, I did. Look at my seat.

Captain's got better, F/O's didn't. You must be a Captain.

Allegheny
07-16-2018, 04:00 AM
On the day after ALPA becomes the bargaining agent, the sign on the office will change but nothing else will. It will be the same office staff and personnel. The reason for this is that APA has been independent, since 1963, 55 years. ALPA has no idea what is in the APA contract. The Railway Labor Act says the "parties shall make and maintain agreements on pay and working conditions."

ALPA cannot replace the support staff, they are the ones who know the contract, ALPA national doesn't. It will take a long time under ALPA leadership to achieve any meaningful change. Meanwhile your dues will go up and you will get a cool magazine, lanyards and bag-tags.

Flytolive
07-16-2018, 04:10 AM
ALPA has no idea what is in the APA contract.The APA has been paying ALPA for a myriad of professional services including negotiation services and ALPA's esteemed Economic & Financial Analysis. ALPA knows the APA pilot contract in detail.

Sniper66
07-16-2018, 04:22 AM
The APA has been paying ALPA for a myriad of professional services including negotiation services and ALPA's esteemed Economic & Financial Analysis. ALPA knows the APA pilot contract in detail.





Bingo
I have been saying that for a while
But the ALPA haters will never accept it
Every major ALPA event includes the APA leadership, I have seen them every time , BOD , safety meetings R and I meetings they are there. Wonder why ? Ask the APA leadership why you go and why you contract ALPA every time
I see a merger of the unions like it happened with Continental

A330FoodCritic
07-16-2018, 05:32 PM
Actually, I did. Look at my seat.

Congrats :rolleyes:

Whiskey4
07-17-2018, 09:00 AM
The APA has been paying ALPA for a myriad of professional services including negotiation services and ALPA's esteemed Economic & Financial Analysis. ALPA knows the APA pilot contract in detail.


So...you're basically saying that it's APLA who is responsible for the current contract?


;)

Flytolive
07-17-2018, 10:25 AM
So...you're basically saying that it's APLA (sic) who is responsible for the current contract?Not at all. The APA BOD calls their shots. My point was that the previous assertion that ALPA doesn't 'know' the APA contract is absurd.

Name User
07-17-2018, 01:21 PM
ALPA sold the TWA guys out and tried to court the APA then. If it didn't happen after that I can't see it happening in the future.

Flytolive
07-17-2018, 04:40 PM
ALPA sold the TWA guys out and tried to court the APA then. If it didn't happen after that I can't see it happening in the future.1985 Carl icahn takes control of TWA and starts draining it of capital
1986 Ozark merger
1990 TWA sells LHR operation
1992 BK1
1995 BK2
2001 AA acquisition with preplanned BK3 and prenup brokered by TWA pilot & CEO William Compton.

But it was all ALPA's fault. Got it.

TransWorld
07-17-2018, 07:07 PM
Had to mention that 5 letter word, didn’t you. Still makes me sick to my stomach what he did.

In addition to selling the very profitable LHR routes (ironically to AA), the Karabu ticket deal allowed Icahn to buy tickets at less than cost and then resell them. He pocketed any markup he did.

He had a right, for 8 years (1995-2003), to buy every single connecting ticket through STL (70% of its traffic) at 55 cents on the dollar of the retail price and resell it. That was at a loss for TWA.

The higher load factor TWA had on a flight, the more money it lost on that flight. If it added a new flight and filled it, it lost more money. It doesn’t take an accountant to realize that would not work.

The only hope was to hold on until 2003. Then the airline would be completely out from under his power, and could start rebuilding and being profitable. (The other alternative was to get bought out.) It just ran out of runway a couple of years before that. Then 9/11 happened.

Flytolive
07-17-2018, 07:55 PM
Had to mention that 5 letter word, didn’t you. Still makes me sick to my stomach what he did.

In addition to selling the very profitable LHR routes (ironically to AA), the Karabu ticket deal allowed Icahn to buy tickets at less than cost and then resell them. He pocketed any markup he did.

He had a right, for 8 years (1995-2003), to buy every single connecting ticket through STL (70% of its traffic) at 55 cents on the dollar of the retail price and resell it. That was at a loss for TWA.

The higher load factor TWA had on a flight, the more money it lost on that flight. If it added a new flight and filled it, it lost more money. It doesn’t take an accountant to realize that would not work.

The only hope was to hold on until 2003. Then the airline would be completely out from under his power, and could start rebuilding and being profitable. (The other alternative was to get bought out.) It just ran out of runway a couple of years before that. Then 9/11 happened.Sorry to bring up bad memories of that SOB.

TWA pilots are the absolute best. I was always amazed at the lengths you all would go to get jumpseaters on, even young TWE guys. True gentlemen, ladies and Captains who knew how to be Captains.

All the best.

TransWorld
07-17-2018, 08:41 PM
Thanks!

Sometimes the nicest people are the ones that have marched through the worst. It builds character. It makes them bend over backwards to help their fellow pilots (and everyone else). It makes them grateful. And (if I do say so myself), TWA hired some of the best, to begin with.

It may have helped the motto in the 1950s was an airline run by fliers. The CEO (Jack Frye) flew the line. Several of the VPs took their turn flying. The Owner, as quirky as he was, (Howard Hughes) was known to occasionally fly the line and special charters. He regularly flew his own plane. Remember the Spruce Goose. He designed, built, and flew it (once).

B757200ER
07-18-2018, 08:23 AM
But the ALPA haters will never accept it

I see a merger of the unions like it happened with Continental

Wrong. CAL had IACP, which had a Constitution & Bylaw that allowed the IACP Board to vote to merge with another union without membership ratification/vote. APA requires it, and it won't happen.

Flytolive
07-18-2018, 08:30 AM
APA requires it, and it won't happen.Really? jetBlue, Westjet just fought off an alter-ego, Frontier pilots will also win eventually, word is Air Canada is next and even UPS is starting to look.



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