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View Full Version : Anti-social personality disorder


atpwannabe
06-08-2018, 09:53 AM
Ok guys:

Here it is...years later. Flying professionally has gone by way of the dinosaur for me. Diagnosed with ASPD back in 2012. From what I understand ASPD is a permanent disqualifier. What are my chances of at least getting a 3rd Class medical w/limitation if there is such a thing..(SI). Really just wanna get my PPL w/Instr for ASEL and enjoy pleasure flying.

Let her rip!:D


atp


rickair7777
06-08-2018, 10:07 AM
Bummer.

Don't really know about that one.

But I had an FO recently who had some sort of obstructive defiant disorder.

I tried to find an AME/consultant who specializes in stuff like this.

atpwannabe
06-08-2018, 12:19 PM
Hey rickair! Yep, I made the mistake of responding to the Chief Psychiatrist's note of my "law enforcement entanglements being drug related" as being ludacris and absurd". Boy was that the wrong answer/response. Hindsight is 20/20 vision!

At any rate, I'm going to petition him and ask if he'll review my file for the aforementioned request. Hopefully, he'll approve it. We'll see.

Good to hear from you.


atpwannabe
(Marcus)


Twin Wasp
06-12-2018, 07:40 AM
And to get a CFI you have to have a commercial.

Excargodog
06-12-2018, 12:51 PM
The diagnosis itself is not necessarily disqualifying, but the history that established that diagnosis may be:

Decision Considerations - Aerospace Medical Dispositions
Item 47. Psychiatric Conditions - Personality Disorder
The category of personality disorders severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts refers to diagnosed personality disorders that involve what is called "acting out" behavior. These personality problems relate to poor social judgment, impulsivity, and disregard or antagonism toward authority, especially rules and regulations.

A history of long-standing behavioral problems, whether major (criminal) or relatively minor (truancy, military misbehavior, petty criminal and civil indiscretions, and social instability), usually occurs with these disorders. Driving infractions and previous failures to follow aviation regulations are critical examples of these acts.

Certain personality disorders and other mental disorders that include conditions of limited duration and/or widely varying severity may be disqualifying. Under this category, the FAA is especially concerned with significant depressive episodes requiring treatment, even outpatient therapy. If these episodes have been severe enough to cause some disruption of vocational or educational activity, or if they have required medication or involved suicidal ideation, the application should be deferred or denied issuance.

Some personality disorders and situational dysphorias may be considered disqualifying for a limited time. These include such conditions as gross immaturity and some personality disorders not involving or manifested by overt acts.

....

So yeah, if you actually seriously screwed up in life and demonstrated that you don't give a fly in' $;:@ if you hurt people, your odds aren't great. If you simply PO'd a single shrink, heck, 80% of shrinks would have been seriously PO's to find that you had voted for the winner in the 2016 presidential election, some willing to testify in court that you are sociopathic for doing so.

Besides, everyone is entitled to a second opinion.

atpwannabe
06-14-2018, 04:05 AM
Excargodog:

LMAO! Never got a definitive explanation such as yours. It really isn't a laughing matter and I do take this process seriously.

Looking back, most indiscretions occurred starting just after my wife and I separated in 2003. During my quest for medical cert, I completed 3 HIMS evaluations with the latter two recommending certification. In addition, I had secured a HIMS AME out of KTMB who was willing to work with me. I really thought that I was on my way. Achieving a lifelong desire/dream meant everything to me. A profound sense of accomplishment. The FAA in DC/OKC had/has all of this information. When I got the denial letter from Drs. Chesanow, De Voll, and Tilton, man....I was crushed. Professionally, all I've ever wanted to do was become an airline pilot. If by chance the decision is reversed, in reality, I'll probably only have about 7-10 years of flying professionally, whether 91, 135, or 121. Preferably 91..."fly till you die". It'd be the best 7-10 years of my life!

I certainly appreciate and respect your explanation. Looking back, it's a bitter pill to swallow, however, I must and have taken ownership of all that's happened. In the words of the 9th step..."I will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." Being transparent though, there are some things in the past that I do regret, but can't go back to change. All I can do is to continue to learn from past mistakes (not to be repeated) and build on my successes.

Thanks for the genuine response.


Marcus
(atpwannabe)



The diagnosis itself is not necessarily disqualifying, but the history that established that diagnosis may be:

Decision Considerations - Aerospace Medical Dispositions
Item 47. Psychiatric Conditions - Personality Disorder
The category of personality disorders severe enough to have repeatedly manifested itself by overt acts refers to diagnosed personality disorders that involve what is called "acting out" behavior. These personality problems relate to poor social judgment, impulsivity, and disregard or antagonism toward authority, especially rules and regulations.

A history of long-standing behavioral problems, whether major (criminal) or relatively minor (truancy, military misbehavior, petty criminal and civil indiscretions, and social instability), usually occurs with these disorders. Driving infractions and previous failures to follow aviation regulations are critical examples of these acts.

Certain personality disorders and other mental disorders that include conditions of limited duration and/or widely varying severity may be disqualifying. Under this category, the FAA is especially concerned with significant depressive episodes requiring treatment, even outpatient therapy. If these episodes have been severe enough to cause some disruption of vocational or educational activity, or if they have required medication or involved suicidal ideation, the application should be deferred or denied issuance.

Some personality disorders and situational dysphorias may be considered disqualifying for a limited time. These include such conditions as gross immaturity and some personality disorders not involving or manifested by overt acts.

....

So yeah, if you actually seriously screwed up in life and demonstrated that you don't give a fly in' $;:@ if you hurt people, your odds aren't great. If you simply PO'd a single shrink, heck, 80% of shrinks would have been seriously PO's to find that you had voted for the winner in the 2016 presidential election, some willing to testify in court that you are sociopathic for doing so.

Besides, everyone is entitled to a second opinion.

Excargodog
06-14-2018, 08:42 AM
Excargodog:
The FAA in DC/OKC had/has all of this information. When I got the denial letter from Drs. Chesanow, De Voll, and Tilton, man....I was crushed. Professionally, all I've ever wanted to do was become an airline pilot. If by chance the decision is reversed, in reality, I'll probably only have about 7-10 years of flying professionally, whether 91, 135, or 121. Preferably 91..."fly till you die". It'd be the best 7-10 years of my life!

I certainly appreciate and respect your explanation. Looking back, it's a bitter pill to swallow, however, I must and have taken ownership of all that's happened. In the words of the 9th step..."I will not regret the past nor wish to shut the door on it." Being transparent though, there are some things in the past that I do regret, but can't go back to change. All I can do is to continue to learn from past mistakes (not to be repeated) and build on my successes.

Thanks for the genuine response.


Marcus
(atpwannabe)

So take a chance. Make the phone call. Call 202-267-8035 and ask for Dr Penny Giovanetti. Tell her what happened. Tell her the truth, be humble, and tell her the changes you've made in your life since then. She can pull up the old records. She can tell you if you have a shot and if so how to put in an appeal based upon the subsequent history. Because it IS the history that matters. If you have changed from that time, and have your act together, and you can safely fly, they can certainly make it happen. You just need to convince them.

It won't be quick and it may not be cheap, but the whole world loves a reformed sinner. Makes us all feel there is hope for us too. So it just may happen.

But Penny's a great gal. She'll tell you if she thinks you have a reasonable shot. What the hell, it's only a phone call.

TiredSoul
06-14-2018, 02:03 PM
So you’ve been at it for 6(!) years....
I’m thinking that the writing is on the wall.
Plenty of aviation related jobs that do not involve a medical and flying.

atpwannabe
06-15-2018, 03:51 PM
So you’ve been at it for 6(!) years....
I’m thinking that the writing is on the wall.
Plenty of aviation related jobs that do not involve a medical and flying.

True; however in that scenario getting past the 10 year background check is just as daunting. Put it like this, if the FAA did certify me, basically stating that they believe that I've turned the corner, then, I'm sure there is at least one outfit out there that would give me the opportunity.

I plan on following up on Excargodog's suggestion. If Dr. Giovanetti is able to help, then, I should be ok.


atp

TiredSoul
06-16-2018, 08:56 AM
I’m not understanding something.
In Aug 2012 you’ve posted that you were “cleared” by the FAA
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/69570-got-call.html
Now you’ve stated that you haven’t.

atpwannabe
06-17-2018, 03:31 AM
I’m not understanding something.
In Aug 2012 you’ve posted that you were “cleared” by the FAA
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/hangar-talk/69570-got-call.html
Now you’ve stated that you haven’t.

TiredSoul:

I started this process in back 9/2008. By 8/2012, (engaged in the SI process), I had had three HIMS evaluations, secured a HIMS AME, and had completed other psychiatric and psychological evals done by doctors not associated with the FAA. The last thing I was told by Kathy Lincoln outta the FAA/DC office is that all I needed was a comprehensive eye exam. She alluded to the fact that I would be certified b/c all criteria had been met. I honestly believed that I was on my way and my efforts would finally start to pay off. Per Ms. Lincoln, all other criteria and suggestions had been met and followed.

With that in mind, you can understand why I stated that I was crushed when I got the final denial letter. My question to the FAA would be.."If ASPD is a permanent disqualifier, why in God's name did they suggest and allow me to pursue the SI process?"

That's the million $$ question.


atp

tomgoodman
06-17-2018, 08:06 AM
atpwannabe,

You may have answered your ‘million $ question’ in a previous post:

“I made the mistake of responding to the Chief Psychiatrist's note of my "law enforcement entanglements being drug related" as being ludacris and absurd". Boy was that the wrong answer/response. Hindsight is 20/20 vision!”

It’s possible that this escalated a routine SI case into something that any bureaucracy finds unforgivable: a Turf Violation. Your HIMS AME should have warned you against doing it. :(

atpwannabe
06-17-2018, 09:27 AM
atpwannabe,

You may have answered your ‘million $ question’ in a previous post:

“I made the mistake of responding to the Chief Psychiatrist's note of my "law enforcement entanglements being drug related" as being ludacris and absurd". Boy was that the wrong answer/response. Hindsight is 20/20 vision!”

It’s possible that this escalated a routine SI case into something that any bureaucracy finds unforgivable: a Turf Violation. Your HIMS AME should have warned you against doing it. :(


Hey tomgoodman:

Thanks for the response and it's really good to "see" you again.

I've actually decided to construct a letter directly to Dr. Chesanow and apologize for my shortsightedness in his diagnosis and in addition to what Excargdog suggested. I recently Googled his name and read his bio. He has over 40 years of experience in addressing/treating addiction/abuse. Also, I plan to explain how I've dealt with the root issues that lead to the systemic overt behavior. Such as overcoming the approval of others, facing and dealing with rejection and low self-esteem, and finding value and purpose in who I am and that I either stand or fall based on internal change as oppose to seeking external change.

At any rate, I believe it's worth the effort. The very least I can get out of this is a clear conscience and a clean heart concerning this matter.

Again, good to hear from you!


atp

tomgoodman
06-17-2018, 10:01 AM
atp,

I think you are on the right path for a productive and happy life, no matter what the FAA decides about your medical certificate. That’s what is really important.
Good Luck! 👍

Tom