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View Full Version : Air Cargo Carriers CRW NTSB Final


intrepidcv11
06-09-2018, 07:35 AM
Itís out. Not gonna post whole thing, but I find this interesting to say the least. NTSB used FOís personal IPhone to find a bunch of text messages about the captís less adequate judgment and instrument abilities. Maybe I havenít been paying attention, but this is the first Iíve seen something so personal cracked open by NTSB. Not sure how to feel about it, but clearly big brother is watching...

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61194/615487.pdf


METO Guido
06-09-2018, 08:44 AM
Riveting. And sad. Good post.

JohnBurke
06-09-2018, 10:00 AM
I don't know that it's a matter of big brother. A huge amount of inexperience and immaturity in that cockpit. That the FO was texting while flying the leg makes his conversation very relevant to the investigation, especially as his commentary is directly related to his state of mind and the captain's, as well as both their actions.

The FO's commentary makes me deeply suspect of his account, however, given the high level of ignorance and his inexperience.


USMCFLYR
06-09-2018, 12:16 PM
It was a HER....and unfortunately the CA was very much like the Colgan CA in the number of disapprovals that he had received and not told the company during the application process. She may have been inexperienced but her views very well have been accurate especially after flying with the CA numerous times.

JohnBurke
06-09-2018, 04:31 PM
She makes the observation that *her* total career experience with a captain is limited to one captain. This strongly points to her own inexperience, as does her language.

Her cell conversation points to an incident in which the captain was not in control of the aircraft, severely disoriented, in a state of panic, and afraid to fly again, yet he reportedly did and despite her awareness of it, carried on a lucid conversation, and elected to depart into the same conditions, in the same aircraft, with the same captain.

It's hard to wrap the mind around someone who has just had what they consider to be a life or death experience, and who has zero confidence in the captain with whom she is flying, carrying on a chatty conversation with not one, but two other people as they're flying in the same conditions that terrify them.

A Squared
06-09-2018, 06:40 PM
Maybe I havenít been paying attention, but this is the first Iíve seen something so personal cracked open by NTSB. Not sure how to feel about it, but clearly big brother is watching...


I saw an NTSB analysis of the pre-flight activities of the crew of the UPS flight that flew into the ground in Birmingham. (attempting to evaluate quantity and quality of rest) They had a pretty detailed listing of how often the FO used her smart phone and what she was doing (accessing social media, etc) during the proceeding rest period. (sorry, don't have a link, it was something I saw in recurrent) It didn't contain explicit quotes, as this investigation does, but they were certainly digging into her personal life pretty deeply.



I think you can pretty much consider privacy a thing of the past.

USMCFLYR
06-09-2018, 06:57 PM
She makes the observation that *her* total career experience with a captain is limited to one captain. This strongly points to her own inexperience, as does her language.

Her cell conversation points to an incident in which the captain was not in control of the aircraft, severely disoriented, in a state of panic, and afraid to fly again, yet he reportedly did and despite her awareness of it, carried on a lucid conversation, and elected to depart into the same conditions, in the same aircraft, with the same captain.

It's hard to wrap the mind around someone who has just had what they consider to be a life or death experience, and who has zero confidence in the captain with whom she is flying, carrying on a chatty conversation with not one, but two other people as they're flying in the same conditions that terrify them.

Yes it is.....and you can gain more insight if you read the entire report.
You will shake your head at it.

JohnBurke
06-09-2018, 07:19 PM
Yes it is.....and you can gain more insight if you read the entire report.
You will shake your head at it.

I did. A train wreck in the making, all around.

It's unfortunate that maturity isn't a requirement, or that a judgement standard is not established. It's a sliding scale across the continuum, of course, but the complete lack of either one should be a barrier to the cockpit.

I have no problem with the NTSB examining personal communications, or activity prior to or during the flight, especially where it's a major contributing factor to the event.

The NTSB has long looked at emotional state, rest, and events in our lives as contributing factors, and with good reason.

rickair7777
06-09-2018, 08:28 PM
Coming soon to a legacy near you...

ShyGuy
06-09-2018, 10:32 PM
Itís out. Not gonna post whole thing, but I find this interesting to say the least. NTSB used FOís personal IPhone to find a bunch of text messages about the captís less adequate judgment and instrument abilities. Maybe I havenít been paying attention, but this is the first Iíve seen something so personal cracked open by NTSB. Not sure how to feel about it, but clearly big brother is watching...

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61194/615487.pdf

This is the docket opening, not the final report yet.

TheFly
06-10-2018, 06:24 AM
Itís out. Not gonna post whole thing, but I find this interesting to say the least. NTSB used FOís personal IPhone to find a bunch of text messages about the captís less adequate judgment and instrument abilities. Maybe I havenít been paying attention, but this is the first Iíve seen something so personal cracked open by NTSB. Not sure how to feel about it, but clearly big brother is watching...

https://dms.ntsb.gov/public/61000-61499/61194/615487.pdf

Speechless.
[filler]

JohnBurke
06-10-2018, 12:29 PM
Not entirely. You managed one word.

TheFly
06-10-2018, 06:13 PM
Not entirely. You managed one word.

The word ďspeechlessĒ wasnít part of the speech. :p

rickair7777
06-10-2018, 09:08 PM
This is the docket opening, not the final report yet.

I've seen enough.

FlyJay
06-11-2018, 07:37 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_NmFCRFBoQ

Here's the CCTV footage. Warning, it shows the crash and may be disturbing to some.

JohnBurke
06-12-2018, 12:00 AM
The inevitable result when there is no pilot on board.

It would appear that the cockpit was populated by passengers.

trip
06-12-2018, 07:33 AM
Isn't this the same outfit that had a fatal midair with Shorts 360's while formation flying over Wisconsin?

FlyJay
06-12-2018, 10:33 AM
Isn't this the same outfit that had a fatal midair with Shorts 360's while formation flying over Wisconsin?

Yes

Filler

JohnBurke
06-12-2018, 01:47 PM
The real question is how a Shorts crashed that fast. They travel slow enough that they are often mistaken for flying in reverse and are frequently found camoflaged in discarded misshapen piles of refridgerator boxes.

SD3FR8DOG
06-12-2018, 02:09 PM
The real question is how a Shorts crashed that fast. They travel slow enough that they are often mistaken for flying in reverse and are frequently found camoflaged in discarded misshapen piles of refridgerator boxes.

Several thousand hrs in the box and I canít understand it either. Very forgiving plane but ya still gotta fly it. Also, an aircraft without an operable autopilot means your instrument skills should be sharp as heck. I know Iíll never be as sharp at hand flying on instruments as I was on that plane.

JohnBurke
06-12-2018, 02:52 PM
It helps if the passengers in the front seat aren't sleeping or texting, rather than flying.

cub pilot
06-13-2018, 06:19 PM
Please repost link to PDF OF ACCIDENT. IT does not come up

AirBear
06-13-2018, 09:06 PM
Please repost link to PDF OF ACCIDENT. IT does not come up

https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=61194&CFID=2000350&CFTOKEN=954e8c0aa627d073-6D09FC07-96E7-D426-00E16AA285BDCA0A

Video of accident:

https://youtu.be/G_NmFCRFBoQ

EDIT: the link was working a few days ago, now I get an error message, "403" or something. Could be the servers at NTSB are down for MX or something.