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View Full Version : IOE with 3pilot crew flight


CaptainDooley
06-10-2018, 11:43 AM
Have a question for you guys that fly long flights with a 3 pilot crew.

My company is saying that the entire block time would count towards the 100 hr consolidation requirement. My understanding is that only time sitting at the controls counts. Anyone know how the FAA looks at it? We fly under supplemental rules, so there is no crew rest, just have to follow req that says, no more than 8 hrs at the controls and no more that 12 hrs flight time.


harvick4
06-10-2018, 12:03 PM
It's my understanding only 2/3's of it counts for consolidation.
Also, if you are doing IOE you aren't qualified so you will need a 4th pilot.


Have a question for you guys that fly long flights with a 3 pilot crew.

My company is saying that the entire block time would count towards the 100 hr consolidation requirement. My understanding is that only time sitting at the controls counts. Anyone know how the FAA looks at it? We fly under supplemental rules, so there is no crew rest, just have to follow req that says, no more than 8 hrs at the controls and no more that 12 hrs flight time.

GraceMonth
06-10-2018, 12:04 PM
8 hours, which is time at the controls only.


LATIN
06-10-2018, 12:44 PM
Only time in seat counts, AFIK, bunk time or IRO time does not count.

If you have a 3 man crew you will get it done in no time due to the lengh of those flights.

Cheers

GraceMonth
06-10-2018, 01:27 PM
It's my understanding only 2/3's of it counts for consolidation.
Also, if you are doing IOE you aren't qualified so you will need a 4th pilot.


Lol.... what?

Adlerdriver
06-10-2018, 01:43 PM
Lol.... what?
He’s saying the guy on IOE can’t be at his duty station without the LCA (i.e the LCA can’t be resting while the IOE student flies with the RFO). Therefore, they have to put a 4th pilot on the crew so the IOE student can rest at the same time his LCA is resting.

Also, concur with the two-thirds counting toward consolidation on a 3-man crew.

Birdsmash
06-10-2018, 01:46 PM
Only “seat time” during the OE portion. The Checkairman is not allowed to go into rest and leave you unsupervised with the IRO. You require adult supervision until signed off. Therefor, your flight time limit is equal to a 2 pilot crew even though you may have 3 pilots onboard. The LCA is allowed to leave the flight deck temporarily for physiological reasons.

If you have 4 pilots you will go to rest at the same time as the LCA as posted above.

Riverside
06-10-2018, 02:07 PM
Lol.... what?

I smell a narrowbody pilot 😋😋😋

Adlerdriver
06-10-2018, 05:17 PM
Therefor, your flight time limit is equal to a 2 pilot crew even though you may have 3 pilots onboard. The LCA is allowed to leave the flight deck temporarily for physiological reasons.

If you have 4 pilots you will go to rest at the same time as the LCA as posted above.:confused: Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.
Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight. :rolleyes:

Hawaii808
06-10-2018, 06:20 PM
You guys really went down a rabbit hole about IOE when that wasn’t even the original posters question. He was asking about the 100 hours requirement not IOE prior to the line check.

The title of the post is misleading though.

GraceMonth
06-10-2018, 11:36 PM
:confused: Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.
Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight. :rolleyes:

This. I may smell like a narrow body pilot, but I’m not a narrow body pilot. I don’t recall discussing, learning, or reading about IOE flight hours being worth 2/3. I would love to know why that is. My LCA recorded and submitted to the company (as did I) a form outlining hours flown to the employer. It wasn’t at 2/3 the value.

GraceMonth
06-10-2018, 11:41 PM
Double post

LoneStarM1A
06-10-2018, 11:58 PM
Seat time only. You can't log time you were in crew rest or a relief pilot in a jumseat toward consolidation any longer. This is a recent change at my shop. Before 2 years ago, everything was logged toward consolidation. 4th man on a 2 hour flight because company wanted to pad everyone's consolidation time? Sure. 3rd man and spent the whole flight in a bunk? Sure. It was logged 100%, logged it all.

Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.

Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.

LoneStarM1A
06-11-2018, 12:18 AM
This. I may smell like a narrow body pilot, but I’m not a narrow body pilot. I don’t recall discussing, learning, or reading about IOE flight hours being worth 2/3. I would love to know why that is. My LCA recorded and submitted to the company (as did I) a form outlining hours flown to the employer. It wasn’t at 2/3 the value.

IOE is not the same as the 100 hour consolidation of knowledge and skills. All block time on IOE should be logged toward whatever the minimum IOE block time is at your shop. However, if your IOE included flights with relief pilots, not all of you IOE block time will count toward consolidation. You would have to subtract the IOE time you spend in crew rest from your consolidation. (at least this is the case where I work, I don't know about other places).

Anyway, this was probably all getting changed because carriers were abusing their ability to put 1 or 2 relief pilots new to type needlessly on flights under 8/12 hours block because so they could pad their consolidation hours. I don't know if the changes are supposed to be universal or if they are carrier specific.

GraceMonth
06-11-2018, 12:30 AM
Seat time only. You can't log time you were in crew rest or a relief pilot in a jumseat toward consolidation any longer. This is a recent change at my shop. Before 2 years ago, everything was logged toward consolidation. 4th man on a 2 hour flight because company wanted to pad everyone's consolidation time? Sure. 3rd man and spent the whole flight in a bunk? Sure. It was logged 100%, logged it all.

Last year it was 100% of the block time counted for 2 pilot crews, 67% for 3 pilot, 50% for 4 pilot.

Now It's only time in a "control seat". You're the PF performing the TO/LNDG on an 8 hour flight, but take a 2 hour break? You only get 6 hours toward consolidation. You're the relief pilot and spend two hours in the PF seat and 2 hours in the PM seat on an 8 hour flight? You log 4 hours. Etc.

Copy all. That’s how it works at our shop too. Exception being 67% for 3 man crews and 50% for 4. It’s all time in seat at the controls. No bunk time. No IRO time.

aviatorhi
06-11-2018, 12:45 AM
8900.1 v3 c19 s7

3-1286 line operating flight time for the consolidation of knowledge and skills (part 121).

In accordance with § 121.434(g) pics and sics must complete a minimum of 100 hours of flight time performing the duties of pic or sic, respectively, in operations under part 121 in the airplane type within 120 days after completion of a § 121.441 proficiency check completed in an initial new-hire, initial equipment, transition, or upgrade from fe to sic curriculum. Time spent by a pilot while not seated at the controls, including time spent resting, as required by part 117 and part 121 subparts q, r, and s, cannot be counted to satisfy the consolidation requirements of § 121.434 (refer to legal interpretation to hugh thomas, june 10, 2013).

None of this 50/67 percentage based garbage. You were either in the seat or you weren't. Pick one.

:confused: Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.
Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight. :rolleyes:

You're beyond clueless. Obviously they're up front only for 8 hours of the 8+ hour block time. If the LCA needs to pee the trainee can stay up front. And you can count on 16 hour flights being used for OE and COKS. Especially if a gross majority of the flying is long haul.



OP. Your topic and post are misleading. For logging purposes the answer is the same but COKS and OE are two different animals.

Adlerdriver
06-11-2018, 03:16 AM
None of this 50/67 percentage based garbage. You were either in the seat or you weren't. Pick one. When one works for a company that consistently uses the convention of splitting flight time equally among a 3 or 4 pilot crew AND automates the process of logging time there is no option. You can sit up in the seat for 8 hours on a 9 hour flight if you want just on principle, but you’re going to get 6 towards consolidation.

Call it garbage if you want but that’s the way it is at some companies. If you’re working at some ratchet outfit that logs with pencil, crayon or whatever, then I guess you can do what you want.

As to the rest, I’ll let Birdsmash respond.

Birdsmash
06-11-2018, 03:50 AM
:confused: Explain how a three person crew on an over-8 flight accomplishes an IEO flight? The LCA would have to be in the seat for the whole flight and exceeds the FAR limit of 8 hours.
Reading between the lines of your post, it sounds like you’re saying the LCA stays on the flight deck to “supervise” the IOE student while he and the IRO are in the seats. If that’s the case, that’s absolute BS. Not the intent of the FAR and I’m really surprised your company hasn’t been called on that. Just what a long haul flight with training being accomplished needs..... a fatigued LCA on approach after nothing but “physiological breaks” the whole flight. :rolleyes:
The crew would be limited to the 2 pilot limit of 8 hours (over 8 hours requires a second IRO in the case of OE being conducted). The single IRO would be there to make coffee, maybe do the walk around, etc. the LCA and OE student could stay up front for the length of the flight if under 8. The IRO (or RP or whatever term) becomes the galley *****.

aviatorhi
06-11-2018, 03:59 AM
When one works for a company that consistently uses the convention of splitting flight time equally among a 3 or 4 pilot crew AND automates the process of logging time there is no option. You can sit up in the seat for 8 hours on a 9 hour flight if you want just on principle, but you’re going to get 6 towards consolidation.

Call it garbage if you want but that’s the way it is at some companies. If you’re working at some ratchet outfit that logs with pencil, crayon or whatever, then I guess you can do what you want.

As to the rest, I’ll let Birdsmash respond.

Yeah I work at Omni... lots of ratcheting we do here. We also make the record reflective of reality rather than falsifying it or forcing the flightcrew into a bind. Good luck with your own rqtcheting and flat out ignoring the regulating authority. Seems someone with a brain cell or two should be bringing that up with the proper channels.

Judging by the fact that you found it implausible to perform OE on a flight longer than 8 hours I have additional doubts about your credibility.

sky jet
06-11-2018, 06:26 AM
Yeah I work at Omni... lots of ratcheting we do here. We also make the record reflective of reality rather than falsifying it or forcing the flightcrew into a bind. Good luck with your own rqtcheting and flat out ignoring the regulating authority. Seems someone with a brain cell or two should be bringing that up with the proper channels.

Judging by the fact that you found it implausible to perform OE on a flight longer than 8 hours I have additional doubts about your credibility.

I believe that Adler works for a little mom and pop that you wouldn't want to. They are so poor they painted their airplanes purple because it was left over down at the Ace hardware and on sale. :rolleyes:

How about we just acknowledge the fact that each airline has different POI's and as we all know FAA interpretations vary from district to district. It is possible that there are numerous ways of logging this stuff based on who and where you got your answer.

Birdsmash
06-11-2018, 09:37 AM
Nope! Under 8 OE is two pilot rules. Over 8 OE requires 2 IRO’s. There is no advantage to 2 pilots + IRO (LCA + OE student + IRO). It’s either 2 pilots or 4 pilot rules. There should be no difference between Flag carriers.

Adlerdriver
06-11-2018, 10:12 AM
Nope! Under 8 OE is two pilot rules. Over 8 OE requires 2 IRO’s. There is no advantage to 2 pilots + IRO (LCA + OE student + IRO). It’s either 2 pilots or 4 pilot rules. There should be no difference between Flag carriers.
I agree completely. My bad on my incorrect interpretation of your previous post, I read too much into it.

CaptainDooley
06-11-2018, 12:36 PM
Wow, I didn’t expect such a spirited response.
I think the consensus is that you can only log time at the controls for consolidation and has to be under 8 hrs for 3 pilot crew. That is what I thought, but I don’t see that spelled out in the FARs for Supplemental Ops. If someone has a reference, that would be great so I could stick in the Company’s face.

To address some of the other comments.

-to the guy that referenced 117 rules, they don’t apply to Cargo Ops. Ya I know some company’s use 117 because they have it in their contract. Well we all don’t work at FedEx.

-to be clear, I know IOE is different than consolidation. What my company was going to do when I was doing IOE was have 2 LCA and me fly an out and back trip that was 5 hr each way. We don’t use IROs, all 3 pilot trips have 2 CAs and 1 FO. Ended up not doing the trip because only 1 LCA and 1 regular CA were available. We could not do the trip because as someone pointed out, a LCA has to be in the left seat when I am at the controls and he can only be at the controls 8 hrs max.

- I find it interesting that some people say it depends on how your company logs it. That goes directly to my point. I don’t think the FAA cares how your company does stuff, the actual rules are what matter. Should not be what your particular POI thinks. If the FAA audits your flight time and sees a 10hr trip logged toward consolidation I think they would flag that.

- the reason I posted this was that my company thinks they can get us done with consolidation faster by scheduling us on these 10 hr trips and claiming to whole 10 for consolidation. Even if you only get the 8hrs it is not better. Because you needed extended rest after one of these, even getting 8 hrs per trip is not as good as doing 2 day trips that are 6 hrs total. In that case I could get 12 hrs in two days, vs 8 hrs in two days. But then no one claimed management was smart enough to do math.

Swedish Blender
06-11-2018, 12:57 PM
Check the ACARS. Ours has an accept default (2/3 time), or you can manually input the time. That way you could give someone 8 hours even if you were on a 3/4 man crew.

aviatorhi
06-12-2018, 03:30 AM
That is what I thought, but I don’t see that spelled out in the FARs for Supplemental Ops. If someone has a reference, that would be great so I could stick in the Company’s face?

Look in FSIMS.
8900.1 Volume 3 Chaper 19 Section 7 Paragraph 3-1286.

The entirety of FSIMS can be used to get a definitive answer on just about any reg/ops related question. It will also bring you to tears reading some forum responses.

gollum
06-13-2018, 07:38 PM
- I find it interesting that some people say it depends on how your company logs it. That goes directly to my point. I don’t think the FAA cares how your company does stuff, the actual rules are what matter. Should not be what your particular POI thinks. If the FAA audits your flight time and sees a 10hr trip logged toward consolidation I think they would flag that..

121.434(g): Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, pilot in command and second in command crewmembers must each acquire at least 100 hours of line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills (including operating experience required under paragraph (c) of this section) within 120 days

Key words - flight time.

61.51

(f)Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;


Seems pretty clear that only time in the seat counts.

As far as what GOMs or POIs say about logging the time:

If they did say (which many do)
2 pilot crew - log 100%
3 pilot crew - log 66.66%
4 pilot crew - log 50%

there would be no way you could possibly exceed 8 hours without the entire flight exceeding duty limits (at least under supplemental rules)

2 pilot crew - 8 hrs
3 pilot crew - 12 hours
4 pilot crew - 16 hours

Keep in mind these are planning numbers and if un-forcast conditions cause the flight to exceed the above the someones going to exceed 8 hours in the seat and thats perfectly acceptable. Just be able to explain it.

Raptor
06-13-2018, 09:09 PM
At my airline, a 9 hour flight with an OE student may take 3 or 4 pilots depending on circumstances. A typed F/O upgrading to Captain: 3 pilots total needed—LCA, student upgrade, and F/O. A newly typed FO student...if they have 25 hours in type, then 3 pilots are needed. If the FO student doesn’t have 25 hours in type, then 4 pilots are needed—LCA, student FO, two additional FOs. I can’t imagine the airline isn’t doing it legally.

CaptainDooley
06-19-2018, 03:04 PM
What I have been doing on our 3 pilot flights.
(assume 11.5 flight time total)
I log 8 hrs as SIC time
3.5 as IRO
8 hrs toward the 100 consolidation
11.5 is logged for pay purposes.

The reasoning is as follows.
regs say 8 hrs max at the controls, so that is SIC, and also toward consolidation

we are a 3 pilot crew with no rest area on the plane so therefore the pilot not flying is the IRO when not flying. This is a required crewemember for the flight since it is over 8hrs, so therefore it can be logged.

if you don't agree with the above, I would love to hear how others are logging these log haul flights.



121.434(g): Except as provided in paragraph (h) of this section, pilot in command and second in command crewmembers must each acquire at least 100 hours of line operating flight time for consolidation of knowledge and skills (including operating experience required under paragraph (c) of this section) within 120 days

Key words - flight time.

61.51

(f)Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of § 61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate;


Seems pretty clear that only time in the seat counts.

As far as what GOMs or POIs say about logging the time:

If they did say (which many do)
2 pilot crew - log 100%
3 pilot crew - log 66.66%
4 pilot crew - log 50%

there would be no way you could possibly exceed 8 hours without the entire flight exceeding duty limits (at least under supplemental rules)

2 pilot crew - 8 hrs
3 pilot crew - 12 hours
4 pilot crew - 16 hours

Keep in mind these are planning numbers and if un-forcast conditions cause the flight to exceed the above the someones going to exceed 8 hours in the seat and thats perfectly acceptable. Just be able to explain it.

Adlerdriver
06-19-2018, 11:13 PM
What I have been doing on our 3 pilot flights.
(assume 11.5 flight time total)
I log 8 hrs as SIC time
3.5 as IRO
8 hrs toward the 100 consolidation
11.5 is logged for pay purposes.
Makes sense to me. If the reporting system for logging time allows this kind of flexibility, that's the way I would log such a flight (if I was trying to consolidate and/or get my IEO hours). Once those milestones were met, I just wouldn't care any longer. :D



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