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View Full Version : 2 year contract extension?


Al Czervik
06-11-2018, 08:05 AM
Iíve heard rumors of a 2 year contract extension with very small gains? Negotiated by one?


jcountry
06-11-2018, 09:31 AM
Iíve heard rumors of a 2 year contract extension with very small gains? Negotiated by one?

Nothing I hear about Carey surprises me anymore.

Just assume the worst about him, you will seldom be surprised.

A330FoodCritic
06-11-2018, 01:16 PM
Extend a crappy bankruptcy contract?

You just can't make this manure up.


Name User
06-11-2018, 02:13 PM
You don't even know the details, if true I'm sure there's good reason.

Maybe we are able to negotiate gains in areas. Who cares how long our contract is valid for as long as we continue to amend and improve it? Small base hits are better than a long, protracted negotiating time line.

jcountry
06-11-2018, 02:15 PM
You don't even know the details, if true I'm sure there's good reason.

Maybe we are able to negotiate gains in areas. Who cares how long our contract is valid for as long as we continue to amend and improve it? Small base hits are better than a long, protracted negotiating time line.

You're assuming too much.

Last time our boy Dan sat down and negotiated unilaterally, he pretty much gave away what tiny little work rules we had.

IN exchange for a min avg calendar day-which will likely never be implemented-or if it is will result in min days off for everyone.

Saabs
06-11-2018, 04:32 PM
You're assuming too much.

Last time our boy Dan sat down and negotiated unilaterally, he pretty much gave away what tiny little work rules we had.

IN exchange for a min avg calendar day-which will likely never be implemented-or if it is will result in min days off for everyone.

How would avg calendar day result in min days off for everyone? Per JCBA thatís 10 days off for lineholders. That would make you way over the line construction window.

jcountry
06-11-2018, 05:20 PM
How would avg calendar day result in min days off for everyone? Per JCBA that’s 10 days off for lineholders. That would make you way over the line construction window.

Just watch.

Maybe not min days, but I bet you never see 13 off again. With red eyes at the end of 4 days for 3/4 of your month, you will really feel it.

mainlineAF
06-11-2018, 05:22 PM
You're assuming too much.



Last time our boy Dan sat down and negotiated unilaterally, he pretty much gave away what tiny little work rules we had.



IN exchange for a min avg calendar day-which will likely never be implemented-or if it is will result in min days off for everyone.



Youíve gone past assuming to just making things up.

mainlineAF
06-11-2018, 05:23 PM
Just watch.

Maybe not min days, but I bet you never see 13 off again. With red eyes at the end of 4 days for 3/4 of your month, you will really feel it.



13 days off would be 18 days of work in a 31 day month. 18x5:30 is 99 hours. Not going to happen.

Try again.

aa73
06-11-2018, 05:35 PM
You're assuming too much.

Last time our boy Dan sat down and negotiated unilaterally, he pretty much gave away what tiny little work rules we had.

IN exchange for a min avg calendar day-which will likely never be implemented-or if it is will result in min days off for everyone.

Dude, you’ve crossed the line into delusional territory. Do you just make this crap up or are you really that brainwashed by your PHL/Clt reps?

Not only will ACD be implemented, it will also improve our schedules and result in us having industry leading trip and duty rigs.

You need to stop listening to certain reps with agendas that have nothing to do with facts....and maybe start thanking Dan and those hard working APA volunteers who brought you these improvements.

Back to the OP topic. So, if we get industry leading hotel language, profit sharing, LTD and STD fixes, for a two year extension, I’d say it would pass in a New Jersey minute.

Saabs
06-11-2018, 05:53 PM
Just watch.

Maybe not min days, but I bet you never see 13 off again. With red eyes at the end of 4 days for 3/4 of your month, you will really feel it.

Why would I not want trips ending in redeyes versus 3 day slash trips ending in redeyes worth 10-12 hours what we currently have?

Yup, Iím ready for rigs like the rest of the big boys.

Saabs
06-11-2018, 05:54 PM
13 days off would be 18 days of work in a 31 day month. 18x5:30 is 99 hours. Not going to happen.

Try again.

5:15 but your argument is spot on.

mainlineAF
06-11-2018, 06:03 PM
5:15 but your argument is spot on.



See i thought it was 5:15 but then someone corrected me a couple weeks ago and said 5:30.

Al Czervik
06-11-2018, 06:11 PM
if we get industry leading hotel language, profit sharing, LTD and STD fixes, for a two year extension, Iíd say it would pass in a New Jersey minute.

That would be a horribly stupid move.

WhiskeyDelta
06-11-2018, 06:15 PM
Delta guy here...are these short extensions Parkerís way of stringing you along so he doesnít have to pay up big time and also avoid the bad press?

JetMonkey
06-11-2018, 06:25 PM
I don't buy it... seems like people are just wanting to stir $hit up. Parker would have to pony up a TON in order to get this pushed through. I'm talking like Delta profit sharing, raises all across the board and some rig fixes.

There's just too many bad language and work rules that are totally screwed on the joint contract. We had many good items that were just given away. I sit long call reserve and the ability for scheduling to convert us to short call up to 5 times per month is just utter bull$hit! Too many items like that make this hard for me to believe.

Frip
06-11-2018, 06:36 PM
Quit making up stupid stuff

ACD imposes a hard limit of 16 days, and 15 most months.

That is simple grade school math.

There will be some trips with redeyes... As there already are, always has been and always will be.

It won't be "all of them" - or even most of them.

Contract extension very bad idea, there is too much serious fixing that needs done, imo.

If they can negotiate a complete rewrite of Section 15 and acceptable improvements to LTD, PS, and Pay before year end, then they can just as well fix it all.

Al Czervik
06-11-2018, 07:03 PM
Delta guy here...are these short extensions Parkerís way of stringing you along so he doesnít have to pay up big time and also avoid the bad press?

Everyone sees it but the majority here.

Floobs
06-11-2018, 09:21 PM
You're assuming too much.

Last time our boy Dan sat down and negotiated unilaterally, he pretty much gave away what tiny little work rules we had.

IN exchange for a min avg calendar day-which will likely never be implemented-or if it is will result in min days off for everyone.
What was given up?

Saabs
06-11-2018, 10:08 PM
What was given up?

Some will say un implemented contract items.

Some will say some of those items werenít good for us.

Some will say some of those items were good for us.

Donít know whatís true and whatís not true in terms of the above.

Regardless Some that think that ACD isnít good are just downright fools.

Reference every other big boy airline.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 02:49 AM
Some will say un implemented contract items.



Some will say some of those items werenít good for us.



Some will say some of those items were good for us.



Donít know whatís true and whatís not true in terms of the above.



Regardless Some that think that ACD isnít good are just downright fools.



Reference every other big boy airline.



Its a terrible thing.... the whole ACD was used as a straw man. Yes, you are correct, there will not be anymore 10hr slash trips which by the way are less than 10% of our trips. What did we give up? Higher per day productivity for everyone else plus up to 20% 5 day trips in each base. What you donít realize is that the trip make up will change dramatically. Every trip will average as close to 5:15 per day as possible. That means EVERYONE will
have 14 days off. That includes the senior guys! Donít think you will be seeing those 8hr day trips anymore. They will be embedded in 5 day trips. You hate 4-5 day trips? Too bad.... they will now make up 80% of the bid pack. Talk to your United and Delta buddies about what happened with their trips once they implemented ACD. They will tell you that they went to 80% 4 day trips. This is what you would call unintended consequences. Just because Delta and United have something, doesnít mean that itís necessarily a good thing.

If you take a look at who is flying the vast majority of these red-eye/slash trips, they are reserves. Most (not everyone) trades out of their slash trips and they end up going to reserves. Reserves donít care about ACD since they donít break guarantee anyway plus they get an easy trip with a long layover that eats up days of availability. I will agree with you that there is a very small percentage of pilots here that this would help. Those doing Hawaii on the 757 out of PHX and those doing some of the South America layovers our of MIA. But that probably only accounts for 1-2% of our flying. With ACD, everyone (junior and senior) will be made to fly longer trips, and those senior will have less days off. That doesnít sound like a great deal to me.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 03:04 AM
Oh, just an FYI if you want to take a look. Pull up your monthly bid pack and it has a chart with the average credit per day for each fleet in every base. You will see that our average is already above 5:15. Like I said before, 90% of our pilots will see no benefit to ACD abs will probably lose some QOL. Not sure that itís worth it.

Andrew_VT
06-12-2018, 04:05 AM
AUpilot1 gets it, and that's just the downside to the good part of the deal!

The scheduling blank check we have them to pay for it hasn't even been costed out yet. It will be the gift that keeps on giving as we enter section 6.

Route66
06-12-2018, 04:57 AM
Dude, youíve crossed the line into delusional territory. Do you just make this crap up or are you really that brainwashed by your PHL/Clt reps?

Not only will ACD be implemented, it will also improve our schedules and result in us having industry leading trip and duty rigs.

You need to stop listening to certain reps with agendas that have nothing to do with facts....and maybe start thanking Dan and those hard working APA volunteers who brought you these improvements.

Back to the OP topic. So, if we get industry leading hotel language, profit sharing, LTD and STD fixes, for a two year extension, Iíd say it would pass in a New Jersey minute.

There it is. Brainwashing is why Carey has to do it for you.

As far as getting the items you speak of, thats a tall order.

Route66
06-12-2018, 05:06 AM
Its a terrible thing.... the whole ACD was used as a straw man. Yes, you are correct, there will not be anymore 10hr slash trips which by the way are less than 10% of our trips. What did we give up? Higher per day productivity for everyone else plus up to 20% 5 day trips in each base. What you donít realize is that the trip make up will change dramatically. Every trip will average as close to 5:15 per day as possible. That means EVERYONE will
have 14 days off. That includes the senior guys! Donít think you will be seeing those 8hr day trips anymore. They will be embedded in 5 day trips. You hate 4-5 day trips? Too bad.... they will now make up 80% of the bid pack. Talk to your United and Delta buddies about what happened with their trips once they implemented ACD. They will tell you that they went to 80% 4 day trips. This is what you would call unintended consequences. Just because Delta and United have something, doesnít mean that itís necessarily a good thing.

If you take a look at who is flying the vast majority of these red-eye/slash trips, they are reserves. Most (not everyone) trades out of their slash trips and they end up going to reserves. Reserves donít care about ACD since they donít break guarantee anyway plus they get an easy trip with a long layover that eats up days of availability. I will agree with you that there is a very small percentage of pilots here that this would help. Those doing Hawaii on the 757 out of PHX and those doing some of the South America layovers our of MIA. But that probably only accounts for 1-2% of our flying. With ACD, everyone (junior and senior) will be made to fly longer trips, and those senior will have less days off. That doesnít sound like a great deal to me.

OMG! Someone is using math and logic. You know that doesn't fly around here. Carey thinks he will get something for nothing. Remember the more you go DOWN the list the more affected you get by the negative parts of the contract. Not that I don't like the sound of EVERYONE getting affected the same, but its usually affected negatively for everyone.

Reoccurring nightmare.

Bigpimppilot
06-12-2018, 05:15 AM
Just a lowly regional guy here but I was reading how our current economic expansion is the second longest in history without a downturn. Next year it will have been the longest period. Parker is just playing the odds that there will be a downturn in the next two years and he canít afford to give more.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 05:19 AM
Its a terrible thing.... the whole ACD was used as a straw man. Yes, you are correct, there will not be anymore 10hr slash trips which by the way are less than 10% of our trips. What did we give up? Higher per day productivity for everyone else plus up to 20% 5 day trips in each base. What you donít realize is that the trip make up will change dramatically. Every trip will average as close to 5:15 per day as possible. That means EVERYONE will
have 14 days off. That includes the senior guys! Donít think you will be seeing those 8hr day trips anymore. They will be embedded in 5 day trips. You hate 4-5 day trips? Too bad.... they will now make up 80% of the bid pack. Talk to your United and Delta buddies about what happened with their trips once they implemented ACD. They will tell you that they went to 80% 4 day trips. This is what you would call unintended consequences. Just because Delta and United have something, doesnít mean that itís necessarily a good thing.

If you take a look at who is flying the vast majority of these red-eye/slash trips, they are reserves. Most (not everyone) trades out of their slash trips and they end up going to reserves. Reserves donít care about ACD since they donít break guarantee anyway plus they get an easy trip with a long layover that eats up days of availability. I will agree with you that there is a very small percentage of pilots here that this would help. Those doing Hawaii on the 757 out of PHX and those doing some of the South America layovers our of MIA. But that probably only accounts for 1-2% of our flying. With ACD, everyone (junior and senior) will be made to fly longer trips, and those senior will have less days off. That doesnít sound like a great deal to me.

So we would be the only airline where everyone gets the same amount of days off. Got it ......

Senior guys will still get a lot more days off. Junior guys get more days off. Sorry you canít understand that. I want to work my butt off while at work and have more time off at home. Heaven forbid we get industry standard rigs :rolleyes:

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 05:42 AM
So we would be the only airline where everyone gets the same amount of days off. Got it ......



Senior guys will still get a lot more days off. Junior guys get more days off. Sorry you canít understand that. I want to work my butt off while at work and have more time off at home. Heaven forbid we get industry standard rigs :rolleyes:



I donít think you get it. Over 90% of our pilots get greater than 5:15 ACD already. Why would a pilot who is not in the bottom 10% need ACD? Go talk to some of the AWE guys about how their trips were built when they had 5hr ACD. Hint.... exactly 5hrs per day. Thatís for everyone..... Jr and Senior. Thatís 16 days per month for 84hrs. Also, hope you like 5 day trips. You already better be a fairly senior Capt or else you will be doing them in your career. The only way to avoid this disaster is to bid widebody now.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 05:49 AM
I donít think you get it. Over 90% of our pilots get greater than 5:15 ACD already. Why would a pilot who is not in the bottom 10% need ACD? Go talk to some of the AWE guys about how their trips were built when they had 5hr ACD. Hint.... exactly 5hrs per day. Thatís for everyone..... Jr and Senior. Thatís 16 days per month for 84hrs. Also, hope you like 5 day trips. You already better be a fairly senior Capt or else you will be doing them in your career. The only way to avoid this disaster is to bid widebody now.

I donít think you get it. Senior guys will still have senior trips. Itís not just slash trips. Lots of 18-19 hour four days out there as well.

Look at other airlines. United EWR 737 Has about 50% 4 days, little to no 5 days, turns for senior guys, and two days and three days. Many 4 days worth 25+. At AA the majority seem to be 20-22 hours right now without the rig.

I live in base and am fine with 4-5 day trips as long as I fly my butt off.

I recommend you read AW posts on his research in CNR.

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 06:10 AM
How much of the UA 737 EWR flying is Caribbean trips which are frequently turns? That skews the overall percentage.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 06:14 AM
I donít think you get it. Senior guys will still have senior trips. Itís not just slash trips. Lots of 18-19 hour four days out there as well.



Look at other airlines. United EWR 737 Has about 50% 4 days, little to no 5 days, turns for senior guys, and two days and three days. Many 4 days worth 25+. At AA the majority seem to be 20-22 hours right now without the rig.



I live in base and am fine with 4-5 day trips as long as I fly my butt off.



I recommend you read AW posts on his research in CNR.



I personally know a UAL 777 Capt (ex CAL) who did 9 hr day trips out of EWR. As soon as they merged with UAL and they got 5hr ACD they went away. He was so ****ed that everyone was so concerned about getting exactly 5hrs per day. The only way he could keep his QOL was going from the 737 to the 777. He had no interest in flying the 777.

Iíll bet ya that those 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. I guess we will see. If you ask APA or the company.... I they will both tell you we are going to have around 20% 5 day trips in some categories. I donít know why you are so hell bent on fixing a problem that isnít really a problem for 90% of our pilots.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 07:00 AM
I personally know a UAL 777 Capt (ex CAL) who did 9 hr day trips out of EWR. As soon as they merged with UAL and they got 5hr ACD they went away. He was so ****ed that everyone was so concerned about getting exactly 5hrs per day. The only way he could keep his QOL was going from the 737 to the 777. He had no interest in flying the 777.

Iíll bet ya that those 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. I guess we will see. If you ask APA or the company.... I they will both tell you we are going to have around 20% 5 day trips in some categories. I donít know why you are so hell bent on fixing a problem that isnít really a problem for 90% of our pilots.



I literally canít even with people who say ACD is a bad thing, lolz. If route66 is on your side you know you need to rethink your position.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 07:03 AM
I don't buy it... seems like people are just wanting to stir $hit up. Parker would have to pony up a TON in order to get this pushed through. I'm talking like Delta profit sharing, raises all across the board and some rig fixes.

There's just too many bad language and work rules that are totally screwed on the joint contract. We had many good items that were just given away. I sit long call reserve and the ability for scheduling to convert us to short call up to 5 times per month is just utter bull$hit! Too many items like that make this hard for me to believe.



I agree the long to short conversions suck. But thatís the same thing we had at airways where you could be converted 5 times a month.

Biggest issue with long call now is how they can assign you a new sequence that starts 12 hours after block in from your current sequence. It should go back to the old way where when you blocked in you had 12 hours off then had a 12 hour callout.

Also, whyís everyone so quick to say new to an extension? Itís literally a rumor with no facts and lots of people are screaming no. We donít even have one detail so how can you make up your mind?!

Name User
06-12-2018, 07:23 AM
I agree the long to short conversions suck. But thatís the same thing we had at airways where you could be converted 5 times a month.

Biggest issue with long call now is how they can assign you a new sequence that starts 12 hours after block in from your current sequence. It should go back to the old way where when you blocked in you had 12 hours off then had a 12 hour callout.

Also, whyís everyone so quick to say new to an extension? Itís literally a rumor with no facts and lots of people are screaming no. We donít even have one detail so how can you make up your mind?!

LUS was 8 hours rest then 10 hour callout then it went to 10 hour rest 12 hour callout with 117 and the JCBA...but keep in mind that also came with sequence protection for line holders which was probably worth a lot more (plus double the pay).

Also LUS had an unlimited number of conversations to short call with zero increase in pay IIRC. The 30 mins/5 max was a JCBA thing, wasn't it?

People forget that there were a lot of crappy things in both contracts that the JCBA did a pretty good job fixing.

Name User
06-12-2018, 07:28 AM
I personally know a UAL 777 Capt (ex CAL) who did 9 hr day trips out of EWR. As soon as they merged with UAL and they got 5hr ACD they went away. He was so ****ed that everyone was so concerned about getting exactly 5hrs per day. The only way he could keep his QOL was going from the 737 to the 777. He had no interest in flying the 777.

Iíll bet ya that those 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. I guess we will see. If you ask APA or the company.... I they will both tell you we are going to have around 20% 5 day trips in some categories. I donít know why you are so hell bent on fixing a problem that isnít really a problem for 90% of our pilots.

You really don't know the reason for the trips going away. Could be the flying was transferred out of base, or the flights fit better into other sequences for more efficient staffing, etc.

I am unsure about the five day trips. Personally four days to me is long.

I have to wonder if we took all rigs out of the system and just set a minimum number of days off if that would help. Sometimes forcing one thing has consequences on another. Maybe instead of an hourly rate we go to a daily rate regardless of block time. I dunno. The most important thing is variety because not every one wants the same things.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 07:29 AM
LUS was 8 hours rest then 10 hour callout then it went to 10 hour rest 12 hour callout with 117 and the JCBA...but keep in mind that also came with sequence protection for line holders which was probably worth a lot more (plus double the pay).



Also LUS had an unlimited number of conversations to short call with zero increase in pay IIRC. The 30 mins/5 max was a JCBA thing, wasn't it?



People forget that there were a lot of crappy things in both contracts that the JCBA did a pretty good job fixing.



Iíd have to go back and look but Iím almost positive they could only transition you 5 times. Thatís way too many transitions anyway. Should be 2-3 max.

I totally agree about the LUS contract and thatís the point i was trying to make. Yea a few things were better under LOL93 but the JCBA is a 100% improvement. People who disagree with that arenít living in reality.

Frip
06-12-2018, 07:53 AM
Over 90% of our pilots get greater than 5:15 ACD already. Why would a pilot who is not in the bottom 10% need ACD?

"Let 'em eat cake...":(

It isn't "the bottom 10% ".... First obvious logical fallacy.
It is spread widely throughout the seniority list in a large number of the 100+ individual bid status'.

No reason to be concerned with any one else, just so long as they don't mess with your pie, huh?

Frip
06-12-2018, 07:54 AM
IOW...

No wonder why mgmt always has its way with us, and we are where we are.

It is calles collective bargaining for a reason.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 07:55 AM
Over 90% of our pilots get greater than 5:15 ACD already. Why would a pilot who is not in the bottom 10% need ACD?



"Let 'em eat cake...":(



It isn't "the bottom 10% ".... First obvious logical fallacy.

It is spread widely throughout the seniority list in a large number of the 100+ individual bid status'.



No reason to be concerned with any one else, just so long as they don't mess with your pie, huh?



Exactly. Remember last month when everyone was complaining about their 20 day lines worth 78 hours?

Saying only reserves fly slash trip is asinine.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 08:22 AM
We all have buddies at United swa and delta to name a few. Grass is always greener is definitely somewhat true.

Overall they have better schedules than us across the board on narrowbody. Iíll take ACD any day over what we have. Obviously swa doesnít have ACD Before someone points that out.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 08:32 AM
Exactly. Remember last month when everyone was complaining about their 20 day lines worth 78 hours?

Saying only reserves fly slash trip is asinine.



Everyone? Or a few that screamed the loudest? Iím relatively junior and donít have to fly those trips unless I want to. They literally all go to reserves in most categories.

I guess I misspoke.... not the bottom 10% of the list. The bottom 10% in each category. Iím literally dumbfounded with how many people that think having ACD will positively effect their QOL. The vast majority of you already get more than. 5:15!!!! Iím not trying to pull wool over your eyes. If you donít believe me, just look at the chart in the bid pack. Oh, and the 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. The 3.5:1 Duty rig will kick in and cost the company lots of money if you donít finish relatively early on day 5.

As far as the island turns go.... they will be embedded into 4-5 day trips. You will fly into that hub, overnight, do a turn, overnight, then continue on. They already do this some, especially with the FAís.

I canít believe everyone is excited about throwing away major QOL to say they got 5:15 on an occasional trip they might have to fly.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 08:34 AM
We all have buddies at United swa and delta to name a few. Grass is always greener is definitely somewhat true.



Overall they have better schedules than us across the board on narrowbody. Iíll take ACD any day over what we have. Obviously swa doesnít have ACD Before someone points that out.



Saab,

Please share with us your sob story of how many trips you actually fly that donít average more than 5hrs a day....... if you are honest, Iím guessing not many.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 08:43 AM
Everyone? Or a few that screamed the loudest? Iím relatively junior and donít have to fly those trips unless I want to. They literally all go to reserves in most categories.

I guess I misspoke.... not the bottom 10% of the list. The bottom 10% in each category. Iím literally dumbfounded with how many people that think having ACD will positively effect their QOL. The vast majority of you already get more than. 5:15!!!! Iím not trying to pull wool over your eyes. If you donít believe me, just look at the chart in the bid pack. Oh, and the 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. The 3.5:1 Duty rig will kick in and cost the company lots of money if you donít finish relatively early on day 5.

As far as the island turns go.... they will be embedded into 4-5 day trips. You will fly into that hub, overnight, do a turn, overnight, then continue on. They already do this some, especially with the FAís.

I canít believe everyone is excited about throwing away major QOL to say they got 5:15 on an occasional trip they might have to fly.



I just canít argue with this.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 08:46 AM
Saab,

Please share with us your sob story of how many trips you actually fly that donít average more than 5hrs a day....... if you are honest, Iím guessing not many.

Iím 45% in CLT and bid reserve except during summer season. I get a lot of them. Donít forget this is also two extra days off they canít use reserves on. You can and will get used all 18 days sometimes and not to over the 85 hr limit.

Edited to add that once youíre senior enough to hold weekends off, you start flying slash trips or four days worth 17-19 hours again. Usually good trips to trade out of ....... on the weekends.

But hey, just the bottom 10% right? It will change my schedule on reserve and a lineholder.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 08:58 AM
Iím 45% in CLT and bid reserve except during summer season. I get a lot of them. Donít forget this is also two extra days off they canít use reserves on. You can and will get used all 18 days sometimes and not to over the 85 hr limit.



Edited to add that once youíre senior enough to hold weekends off, you start flying slash trips or four days worth 17-19 hours again. Usually good trips to trade out of ....... on the weekends.



But hey, just the bottom 10% right? It will change my schedule on reserve and a lineholder.



Please donít bring logic and reason into this.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 08:59 AM
Please donít bring logic and reason into this.

Does ACD even help you at Eagle?

ALF659
06-12-2018, 09:21 AM
Oh, just an FYI if you want to take a look. Pull up your monthly bid pack and it has a chart with the average credit per day for each fleet in every base. You will see that our average is already above 5:15. Like I said before, 90% of our pilots will see no benefit to ACD abs will probably lose some QOL. Not sure that itís worth it.

If you are looking in the bid packages for the average credit, realize those numbers may say daily average credit but they are really average credit per duty period.

Slash trips that now pay 11 hours over 3 days show up as 5:30 in AA's bid package calculations but really they are worth 3:40 per day. ACD will make these trips 15:45 for a real 5:15 average per day.

Good try with your argument though, but you problem is you relied on company produced numbers.

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 09:23 AM
I personally know a UAL 777 Capt (ex CAL) who did 9 hr day trips out of EWR. As soon as they merged with UAL and they got 5hr ACD they went away. He was so ****ed that everyone was so concerned about getting exactly 5hrs per day. The only way he could keep his QOL was going from the 737 to the 777. He had no interest in flying the 777.

Iíll bet ya that those 5 day trips will pay exactly 26:15. I guess we will see. If you ask APA or the company.... I they will both tell you we are going to have around 20% 5 day trips in some categories. I donít know why you are so hell bent on fixing a problem that isnít really a problem for 90% of our pilots.

If he can hold the 777 he was pretty senior on the 737. Friend flies the Caribbean turns of 8+ hrs on the 737 long after the merger.

sherpster
06-12-2018, 09:23 AM
I had a 20 day line this month. Really unproductive. For 16 of the days I was going to get @60 hrs of pay. Less than 4 hrs of pay a day. Ill take ACD

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 09:26 AM
Does ACD even help you at Eagle?

How much was ACD at AE? Someone used to post "my regional contract was better because at least we had ACD!". Turns out it was 2 or 3 hrs. An ACD that low is worthless with our work rules.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 09:43 AM
How much was ACD at AE? Someone used to post "my regional contract was better because at least we had ACD!". Turns out it was 2 or 3 hrs. An ACD that low is worthless with our work rules.

He is a 190 captain Iím just giving him a hard time. I was former pinnacle. Pre bankruptcy it was 4 hours a day. Think it was min day and not average but donít remember. Contract got gutted in bankruptcy after I left.

Laker24
06-12-2018, 10:24 AM
Oh, just an FYI if you want to take a look. Pull up your monthly bid pack and it has a chart with the average credit per day for each fleet in every base. You will see that our average is already above 5:15. Like I said before, 90% of our pilots will see no benefit to ACD abs will probably lose some QOL. Not sure that it’s worth it.

I believe that chart looks at credit per duty day. Not credit per calendar day.

Consider a 3 day that currently pays 11 hours or so. That 3 day trip has 2 duty periods. 11 hours paid out over 2 duty periods averages 5:30 credit per duty period. So that company chart you are referencing would say that trip averages 5:30 and you would be happy. But it is 11 hours of credit over 3 calendar days. That is how you end up with 10 day off lines paying <80 hours. This is very different from an Average Credit Day of 5:15. With an ACD of 5:15 that same 3 day trip would be worth 15:45.

Just open up your bid package and see how many 2 days pay less than 10:30, 3 days < 15:45, and 4 days <21:00. It's pretty common throughout the system.

RhinoBallAuto
06-12-2018, 10:28 AM
...
With an ACD of 5:15 that same 3 day trip would be worth 5:45. Do you see that distinction?

Currently that chart you are referencing just looks at credit per duty period not per calendar day.

I think you mean 15:45...

jcountry
06-12-2018, 10:45 AM
Delta guy here...are these short extensions Parkerís way of stringing you along so he doesnít have to pay up big time and also avoid the bad press?

He knows a LOT of our apathetic pilots would vote ďyesĒ on anything because they retire soon.

Most will straight tell you that they donít give a crap about the future because they have had a rough career.

Points for honesty. Points subtracted for being self-serving turds.

Parker knows the game will change when most of these guys retire.

Frip
06-12-2018, 10:52 AM
If you are looking in the bid packages for the average credit, realize those numbers may say daily average credit but they are really average credit per duty period.

Slash trips that now pay 11 hours over 3 days show up as 5:30 in AA's bid package calculations but really they are worth 3:40 per day. ACD will make these trips 15:45 for a real 5:15 average per day.

Good try with your argument though, but you problem is you relied on company produced numbers.

Ooopsss!,,

Down in flames...

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 11:04 AM
Please donít bring logic and reason into this.



Funny.... that was going to be my response to you.......

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 11:06 AM
Funny.... that was going to be my response to you.......



Multiple people just proved you wrong yet you call me out. [email protected]

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 11:09 AM
He knows a LOT of our apathetic pilots would vote ďyesĒ on anything because they retire soon.

Most will straight tell you that they donít give a crap about the future because they have had a rough career.

Points for honesty. Points subtracted for being self-serving turds.


If we're going to be honest how many guys have you actually asked? How many have actually answered? How many actually answered the way you said they would?

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 11:16 AM
Iím 45% in CLT and bid reserve except during summer season. I get a lot of them. Donít forget this is also two extra days off they canít use reserves on. You can and will get used all 18 days sometimes and not to over the 85 hr limit.



Edited to add that once youíre senior enough to hold weekends off, you start flying slash trips or four days worth 17-19 hours again. Usually good trips to trade out of ....... on the weekends.



But hey, just the bottom 10% right? It will change my schedule on reserve and a lineholder.



As a guy who bids reserve half the year myself, you are full of it! I donít for one second believe you are flying 18 days. If you are, scheduling has it in for you. Iím way jr to you and 8-12 days working per month is pretty avg. heck, last NOV and DEC I flew 4. If you are flying 18 days on reserve, you are getting hosed and should definitely bid a line that will pay you more.

I get it, you want your cake and eat it too. You arenít senior enough to hold weekends off on the award, so you bid reserve. I donít have a problem with that. You do get stuck with all the slash trips on reserve because people trade out of them. I personally like them if Iím on reserve. Itís nice sitting and getting paid while on a nice layover. In my time here I have broken guarantee on reserve once, maybe twice. Reserves on our fleet just really arenít used that much and I think you know that.

Look, if you want 5:15ACD so you can bid weekends off, thatís cool. But just know that you will be senior someday and you will be working 16 days for 84hrs. I thought a pilots dream was to always be as productive as possible and get 18-21 days off. I know thatís my goal, maybe itís not yours.

Itís no use arguing anymore. 5:15 ACD is already a done deal. We are waisting our breath. Canít wait to fly those 5 day trips for 5:15 per day!!

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 11:21 AM
Multiple people just proved you wrong yet you call me out. [email protected]



That was just an easy reference that I thought everyone would have access too. If you would like you can pull a bid pack and crunch the numbers yourself. I picked a random Thursday this month in my category..... 12% slash trips for the day. You could research it yourself, but it really doesnít matter. ACD is the law of the land. Enjoy!

jcountry
06-12-2018, 11:23 AM
If we're going to be honest how many guys have you actually asked? How many have actually answered? How many actually answered the way you said they would?

I don't ask in that way.

Usually comes up that they voted "yes" for our crap contract once they start griping about how crappy it is....

And they follow with "I have had a crap career," or "it's my last contract, so I don't care." Maybe some stuff about USAPA also.

But in my experience, it's nearly 100% of those who are near or over 60.

I can remember a couple in that category who voted against it, but only a couple.

PRS Guitars
06-12-2018, 11:23 AM
Its a terrible thing.... the whole ACD was used as a straw man. Yes, you are correct, there will not be anymore 10hr slash trips which by the way are less than 10% of our trips. What did we give up? Higher per day productivity for everyone else plus up to 20% 5 day trips in each base. What you don’t realize is that the trip make up will change dramatically. Every trip will average as close to 5:15 per day as possible. That means EVERYONE will
have 14 days off. That includes the senior guys! Don’t think you will be seeing those 8hr day trips anymore. They will be embedded in 5 day trips. You hate 4-5 day trips? Too bad.... they will now make up 80% of the bid pack.

Please explain, I’m not following your logic. I agree that with ACD the company will use the optimizer to reduce “soft time” like 2 duty periods over a 3 day. They might add filler or turns to trips. What I don’t understand is your claim that they will make every trip average 5:15 a day. What incentive do they have for that? We have several 18 hour 3 days in LAX, you’re claiming those will disappear and be replaced by 15:45 trips, I’m not buying it. Why would 8 hour 1 day turns go away? Again what’s the incentive by the company?

You’re logic pretty much exactly mirrors the PHL reps on this, they where against the deal (which is fine) but they have an ends justify the means mentality and started really stretching their argument.

By the way, in CLT there are a lot of slash trips and Last year at 75% I had a month with 8 of them ten days off and 85 hours credit.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 11:39 AM
Please explain, Iím not following your logic. I agree that with ACD the company will use the optimizer to reduce ďsoft timeĒ like 2 duty periods over a 3 day. They might add filler or turns to trips. What I donít understand is your claim that they will make every trip average 5:15 a day. What incentive do they have for that? We have several 18 hour 3 days in LAX, youíre claiming those will disappear and be replaced by 15:45 trips, Iím not buying it. Why would 8 hour 1 day turns go away? Again whatís the incentive by the company?

Youíre logic pretty much exactly mirrors the PHL reps on this, they where against the deal (which is fine) but they have an ends justify the means mentality and started really stretching their argument.

By the way, in CLT there are a lot of slash trips and Last year at 75% I had a month with 8 of them ten days off and 85 hours credit.



The logic is that the optimizer will have to steal time from higher time trips to bring the lower time slash trips up to 5:15ACD. That will bring down the higher time trips to 5:15. There are a fixed number of block hours and they will have to be reshuffled. The 8 hr day turn you talk about out of CLT will now be flown by another base thatís embedded in a 5 day trip with an overnight in CLT. You already see something similar to this with the 737 island flying in CLT. The incentive to the company is paying as little soft time as possible. It doesnít help the company to have you fly an 18hr 3 day when they would have to pay a guy that just flew a redeye a bunch of soft time.

At 75% you should be able to avoid red eyes in CLT if that is something of high importance on your bidding.... things get a little weird in a vacation or training month though. Iím sure you know though that if you donít want those 3 day slash trips you can trade them out for any other 3 day trip.

PRS Guitars
06-12-2018, 12:14 PM
The logic is that the optimizer will have to steal time from higher time trips to bring the lower time slash trips up to 5:15ACD. That will bring down the higher time trips to 5:15. There are a fixed number of block hours and they will have to be reshuffled. The 8 hr day turn you talk about out of CLT will now be flown by another base thatís embedded in a 5 day trip with an overnight in CLT. You already see something similar to this with the 737 island flying in CLT. The incentive to the company is paying as little soft time as possible. It doesnít help the company to have you fly an 18hr 3 day when they would have to pay a guy that just flew a redeye a bunch of soft time.

At 75% you should be able to avoid red eyes in CLT if that is something of high importance on your bidding.... things get a little weird in a vacation or training month though. Iím sure you know though that if you donít want those 3 day slash trips you can trade them out for any other 3 day trip.

Iím not CLT based anymore for what itís worth, yes you can sometimes trade trips (red green plotter is a big problem). At 75% trying to get weekends off, I did get that schedule once, after that I sat LCR the rest of the year.

I think your logic is flawed. I agree they will reduce soft time, but it doesnít have to be at the expense of ALL or even most other trips. a one day 8 hour turn from LAX to MEX is more benefiting to the company than embedding it in another trip. Itís only 4ish hours down there, if it were embedded theyíd have to put another turn on there anyway to get it to 5:15 to get rid of soft time. If they just keep it as is there is no soft time.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 12:33 PM
Iím not CLT based anymore for what itís worth, yes you can sometimes trade trips (red green plotter is a big problem). At 75% trying to get weekends off, I did get that schedule once, after that I sat LCR the rest of the year.



I think your logic is flawed. I agree they will reduce soft time, but it doesnít have to be at the expense of ALL or even most other trips. a one day 8 hour turn from LAX to MEX is more benefiting to the company than embedding it in another trip. Itís only 4ish hours down there, if it were embedded theyíd have to put another turn on there anyway to get it to 5:15 to get rid of soft time. If they just keep it as is there is no soft time.



Iím just relaying to you what happened at United and Delta and what both AA and APA has said will happen with the schedules here. A 1 day paring is very efficient for us, it depends when it comes to the company. Say you are DFW based..... here is an example of what this might look like.

Day 1: DFW-ORD-SFO: 8hrs
Day 2: SFO-DFW-LAX: 7:15hrs
Day 3: LAX-MEX-LAX: 8hrs
Day 4: 24hr Layover
Day 5: LAX-DFW (redeye) 3hrs

Total: 26:15

2 of the 5 days you are gone has less than 5:15. 0hrs on Day 4 and 3hrs on day 5. They make that up on the other days in this example. They stole a 8hr MEX day trip to build this 5 day to 26:15. This is an example of a term planning uses called ďflying off the rig.Ē

Please donít take my word for it though. Contact CM. over in AA manpower planning or even talk to the APA contract people. I promise they will tell you the same thing. They wonít dispute the facts that I have laid out about future trip construction with 5:15ACD.

APA has just decided itís worth the hit in pairing construction to have 5:15ACD here. Itís a political win. ďThey fought for you to get something Delta hasĒ!! It must be good if they have it.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 01:23 PM
Iím just relaying to you what happened at United and Delta and what both AA and APA has said will happen with the schedules here. A 1 day paring is very efficient for us, it depends when it comes to the company. Say you are DFW based..... here is an example of what this might look like.

Day 1: DFW-ORD-SFO: 8hrs
Day 2: SFO-DFW-LAX: 7:15hrs
Day 3: LAX-MEX-LAX: 8hrs
Day 4: 24hr Layover
Day 5: LAX-DFW (redeye) 3hrs

Total: 26:15

2 of the 5 days you are gone has less than 5:15. 0hrs on Day 4 and 3hrs on day 5. They make that up on the other days in this example. They stole a 8hr MEX day trip to build this 5 day to 26:15. This is an example of a term planning uses called ďflying off the rig.Ē

Please donít take my word for it though. Contact CM. over in AA manpower planning or even talk to the APA contract people. I promise they will tell you the same thing. They wonít dispute the facts that I have laid out about future trip construction with 5:15ACD.

APA has just decided itís worth the hit in pairing construction to have 5:15ACD here. Itís a political win. ďThey fought for you to get something Delta hasĒ!! It must be good if they have it.

You need to contact someone In APA scheduling. I would contact AW in particular since it appears you havenít read his many summaries on ACD.

Funny how all my delta and united buddies work a ton less days than I do with the same rigs.....

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 01:32 PM
You need to contact someone In APA scheduling. I would contact AW in particular since it appears you havenít read his many summaries on ACD.



Funny how all my delta and united buddies work a ton less days than I do with the same rigs.....



AW was giving you a sales job based on unrealistic parameters that the company will never use. I never said that you personally wonít have more days off than you have now. I just mentioned that senior guys will have less days and everyone will be doing more 4-5 day trips. But like I said in my response to you earlier. It doesnít matter. ACD is a done deal.

Sliceback
06-12-2018, 01:41 PM
You need to contact someone In APA scheduling. I would contact AW in particular since it appears you havenít read his many summaries on ACD.

Funny how all my delta and united buddies work a ton less days than I do with the same rigs.....

We can't compare anecdotal data. What's the overall numbers of the entire pilot corps in similar bid statuses?

SW posted a comparison for the Air Trans pilots when they bought them. The number of days worked by SW n/b pilots was within low single digit fractions of the number of days worked by AA pilots. A day or two difference over the entire year. From listening to guys saying "my buddy at xyz(often SW) only worked x days" it was interesting to see that the total number of days worked at SW was almost identical.

ALPA and APA have the data. It would be interesting to see the facts.

Details matter. A cargo guy said he's only been away from home one night this year. A later post explained how he did it - 0100-0200 departures, back in the morning. F me, that's not being at home! Waking up in bed with your wife, with no alarm clock, that's being at home!! Getting up at 2300-0000 to go to work doesn't count as a night at home.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 02:09 PM
For all you guys who think that the trip mix will remain the same, please lay out your math/strategy. The 3 day, 1-1 red eye with a 24hr layover will no longer exist. So no JFK-LAX-JFK 3 day worth 15:45. How do you propose that a pilot with this trip gets the other 5.5hrs? We have a set number of total block hours, so that time has to come from somewhere. It will come from more productive trips. The company will NOT pay 5:15 soft time if they can help it.

Andrew_VT
06-12-2018, 02:45 PM
Day 1: DFW-ORD-SFO: 8hrs
Day 2: SFO-DFW-LAX: 7:15hrs
Day 3: LAX-MEX-LAX: 8hrs
Day 4: 24hr Layover
Day 5: LAX-DFW (redeye) 3hrs

Total: 26:15

2 of the 5 days you are gone has less than 5:15. 0hrs on Day 4 and 3hrs on day 5. They make that up on the other days in this example. They stole a 8hr MEX day trip to build this 5 day to 26:15. This is an example of a term planning uses called ďflying off the rig.Ē

This needed to be quoted for effect. This is exactly where the high time day trips and 2-days will go (made part of a longer trip from another base). Maybe I'll move away and start commuting again. Two 5-days and a 4-day every month, about 74 hours. FML.

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 03:20 PM
You don't even know the details, if true I'm sure there's good reason.

Maybe we are able to negotiate gains in areas. Who cares how long our contract is valid for as long as we continue to amend and improve it? Small base hits are better than a long, protracted negotiating time line.

Stop Chugging!

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 03:24 PM
Dude, youíve crossed the line into delusional territory. Do you just make this crap up or are you really that brainwashed by your PHL/Clt reps?

Not only will ACD be implemented, it will also improve our schedules and result in us having industry leading trip and duty rigs.

You need to stop listening to certain reps with agendas that have nothing to do with facts....and maybe start thanking Dan and those hard working APA volunteers who brought you these improvements.

Back to the OP topic. So, if we get industry leading hotel language, profit sharing, LTD and STD fixes, for a two year extension, Iíd say it would pass in a New Jersey minute.


We need MINIMUM CALENDAR DAY, not ACD. Who the hell negotiated this.

Name User
06-12-2018, 03:36 PM
We need MINIMUM CALENDAR DAY, not ACD. Who the hell negotiated this.

From my understanding they did put that in but APA nixed it saying it would have a detrimental impact to schedules.

An example to the above schedule has you getting back in the early AM on day 5, hardly a "work day", yet still pays like a five day.

The alternative is what SWA has which is high productive trips but lots of legs added to fill out their schedule. Instead of finishing say at 10am on the last day they finish in the evening after doing tag leg turns.

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 03:41 PM
So APA can predict the Optimizer, OK.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 03:50 PM
So APA can predict the Optimizer, OK.



Actually, they can. They work with the company to run scheduling models of what different scenarios look like. Both APA and AA are fully aware of what our schedules will look like when ACD is implemented.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 03:58 PM
You guys are wearing me out. ACD is settled. There is no use debating it anymore. We can comeback and complain about 5 day trips and lack of high time day trips in a year or two. Iíll start...... This is fAAtiguing..... Worst schedules Iíve ever seen at AA..... How can we let them get away with this...... Iím applying to DL, UA, SW..... informational picketing now...... letís take out an ad in USA Today...... am I missing anything?

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 04:01 PM
Actually, they can. They work with the company to run scheduling models of what different scenarios look like. Both APA and AA are fully aware of what our schedules will look like when ACD is implemented.

So, how much better or worse are they after ACD is implemented? I missed that memo. I did see speculation but that's all is was, nothing definite.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 04:03 PM
We need MINIMUM CALENDAR DAY, not ACD. Who the hell negotiated this.



Obviously MCD is superior to ACD. But ACD is better than what we had before.

PRS Guitars
06-12-2018, 04:08 PM
So, how much better or worse are they after ACD is implemented? I missed that memo. I did see speculation but that's all is was, nothing definite.

Did you not read a single post of his? He has outlined his theory very thoroughly over the last three pages, complete with examples.

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 04:19 PM
Did you not read a single post of his? He has outlined his theory very thoroughly over the last three pages, complete with examples.

No, he actually replied to one of my post, which was me replying to a post, before his example posts.

I will read his post.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 04:38 PM
So, how much better or worse are they after ACD is implemented? I missed that memo. I did see speculation but that's all is was, nothing definite.



Iíll give you one absolute fact right from the Director of Manpower Plannings (CM) mouth on a recent pilot conference call. ďWe will have a significant number of 5 day trips. Anywhere from 10% to 20%. The percentage will vary month to month and category to category.Ē

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 04:45 PM
Obviously MCD is superior to ACD. But ACD is better than what we had before.

Don't we want industry leading, not industry compliant?

A330FoodCritic
06-12-2018, 04:46 PM
I’ll give you one absolute fact right from the Director of Manpower Plannings (CM) mouth on a recent pilot conference call. “We will have a significant number of 5 day trips. Anywhere from 10% to 20%. The percentage will vary month to month and category to category.”

You are scaring me away from NB flying :)

I like 3 day trips.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 05:04 PM
Don't we want industry leading, not industry compliant?



Of course we do. But with our limited leverage from the Christmas issue ACD was a significant gain.

GreatStory
06-12-2018, 05:41 PM
Considering AA margin is horrible, there is a huge probability that when the next recession hits in 2019/20 AA will declare bankruptcy again. This whole thing is kinda moot.

Laker24
06-12-2018, 05:58 PM
Considering AA margin is horrible, there is a huge probability that when the next recession hits in 2019/20 AA will declare bankruptcy again. This whole thing is kinda moot.

Are you serious? 9% margins in the airline business are historically excellent. DAL and UAL are facing major capital expenditures as fleet renewals becomes a requirement. AAs debt is largely a function of having the youngest fleet in the industry.

Laker24
06-12-2018, 06:01 PM
Iíll give you one absolute fact right from the Director of Manpower Plannings (CM) mouth on a recent pilot conference call. ďWe will have a significant number of 5 day trips. Anywhere from 10% to 20%. The percentage will vary month to month and category to category.Ē


Earlier you stated that 3 day slash trips paying 11 hours were statistically insignificant since they represented only 10%+- of all trips. So you shouldnít be worried about the 5 day trips. You already stated 10% is irrelevant. But now that undesirable trip will at least average 5:15 per calendar day instead of 3:30. Using your own logic this is a win. The junior guys will get the 5 day trips (least desirable 10% of pairings) instead of the 3 day slash trips and they will hit 80 hours of credit in 15 days instead of 20.

sherpster
06-12-2018, 06:49 PM
Earlier you stated that 3 day slash trips paying 11 hours were statistically insignificant since they represented only 10%+- of all trips. So you shouldnít be worried about the 5 day trips. You already stated 10% is irrelevant. But now that undesirable trip will at least average 5:15 per calendar day instead of 3:30. Using your own logic this is a win. The junior guys will get the 5 day trips (least desirable 10% of pairings) instead of the 3 day slash trips and they will hit 80 hours of credit in 15 days instead of 20.

Well played. Very well played!

Andrew_VT
06-12-2018, 07:13 PM
Earlier you stated that 3 day slash trips paying 11 hours were statistically insignificant since they represented only 10%+- of all trips. So you shouldnít be worried about the 5 day trips. You already stated 10% is irrelevant. But now that undesirable trip will at least average 5:15 per calendar day instead of 3:30. Using your own logic this is a win. The junior guys will get the 5 day trips (least desirable 10% of pairings) instead of the 3 day slash trips and they will hit 80 hours of credit in 15 days instead of 20.

If 5-days make up 10-20% of the pairings (let's call it 10% for simplicity) and red-eyes (basically a 2.5-day) make up 10% of the pairings then there is twice as much flying (block hours/pay/work days) contained within 5-days!!

If we go from 10% red-eye pairings to 20% 5-days that's over 4 times as much flying contained within 5-day trips as their was in red-eyes!

It's like the Pro-APA Pro-Carey camp not only doesn't understand what's in other airline contracts but doesn't understand basic scheduling math as well.

Laker24
06-12-2018, 07:28 PM
Iím sorry that makes no sense. I think you have been infected by the CLT frear uncertainty and doubt

Name User
06-12-2018, 07:58 PM
If 5-days make up 10-20% of the pairings (let's call it 10% for simplicity) and red-eyes (basically a 2.5-day) make up 10% of the pairings then there is twice as much flying (block hours/pay/work days) contained within 5-days!!

If we go from 10% red-eye pairings to 20% 5-days that's over 4 times as much flying contained within 5-day trips as their was in red-eyes!

It's like the Pro-APA Pro-Carey camp not only doesn't understand what's in other airline contracts but doesn't understand basic scheduling math as well.

Ok now you are just making up numbers.

Saabs
06-12-2018, 08:00 PM
If 5-days make up 10-20% of the pairings (let's call it 10% for simplicity) and red-eyes (basically a 2.5-day) make up 10% of the pairings then there is twice as much flying (block hours/pay/work days) contained within 5-days!!

If we go from 10% red-eye pairings to 20% 5-days that's over 4 times as much flying contained within 5-day trips as their was in red-eyes!

It's like the Pro-APA Pro-Carey camp not only doesn't understand what's in other airline contracts but doesn't understand basic scheduling math as well.

Yes they donít understand the same rig that other airlines have.

Time to put the crackpipe down son.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 08:05 PM
Considering AA margin is horrible, there is a huge probability that when the next recession hits in 2019/20 AA will declare bankruptcy again. This whole thing is kinda moot.



If/when thereís a major recession there may be a few years where AA makes very little to no money or even loses some money.

How many years has AA lost money since deregulation? I donít know but Iím guessing at least 10. How many times have they filed bankruptcy? Once in 2011.

Your statement is pretty dramatic.

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 08:05 PM
If 5-days make up 10-20% of the pairings (let's call it 10% for simplicity) and red-eyes (basically a 2.5-day) make up 10% of the pairings then there is twice as much flying (block hours/pay/work days) contained within 5-days!!



If we go from 10% red-eye pairings to 20% 5-days that's over 4 times as much flying contained within 5-day trips as their was in red-eyes!



It's like the Pro-APA Pro-Carey camp not only doesn't understand what's in other airline contracts but doesn't understand basic scheduling math as well.



You lost me when you started making stuff up.

GreatStory
06-12-2018, 08:39 PM
If/when there’s a major recession there may be a few years where AA makes very little to no money or even loses some money.

How many years has AA lost money since deregulation? I don’t know but I’m guessing at least 10. How many times have they filed bankruptcy? Once in 2011.

Your statement is pretty dramatic.

AA = USair

add them up 3 or is it 4 times?

It is by far the worst run airline in the USofA. AA is run like the DMV. Unfortunately all minimal gains will be lost in 2021 in bankruptcy. Do your research on this turd boys.

Frip
06-12-2018, 09:04 PM
You lost me when you started making stuff up.

Really stupid stuff, too.

AUpilot1
06-12-2018, 11:52 PM
Really, Iím getting worn out with all this. Especially since itís a done deal anyway. If you donít believe me about the 5 day trips, or believe what AAís own manager of manpower planning says, thatís fine. I guess we will just all wait and see. Iím out of this thread.

Andrew_VT
06-12-2018, 11:55 PM
You don't understand the difference between pairings and block hours? If 50% of the pairings are daytrips and the other 50% are 4-days, how many pilots can fill their months flying
with nothing but daytrips? It's not half, it's a fifth.

That's why 10-20% 5-day trips, if true, would be a much bigger deal than the numbers suggest. ...And sorry for projecting my growing Dan Carey-disgust onto you good folks :-)

450knotOffice
06-13-2018, 12:10 AM
AA = USair

add them up 3 or is it 4 times?

It is by far the worst run airline in the USofA. AA is run like the DMV. Unfortunately all minimal gains will be lost in 2021 in bankruptcy. Do your research on this turd boys.

Wrong.

The old USAir was basically a north south East coast regional airline with a few transcons and a few international trips thrown into the mix. Their route structure was doomed to failure - multiple times.

Also, qualify your statement that they AA “is by far the worst run airline in the USofA.” Don’t just make up stuff. Prove it. Qualify your statements. Otherwise they’re just hyperbole.

At the time of this post, 4 of your 7 posts on APC have mentioned bankruptcy for AAL as soon as a hiccup hits in our economy. It’s quite obvious you have an axe to grind with AAL and you seem to gloat at what you feel will be their soon to be demise.

Don’t hold your breath, or you’ll suffocate waiting.

Varks
06-13-2018, 04:40 AM
I currently do 6 day blocks. Sometimes 7. Back to back trans con red eyes are worth about 24 hours. A five day will be worth 25.15. One less day with more pay. ACD will benefit more pilots than some people think. Itís not perfect and 5 day trips are not palatable for all but I would love to do them.

Bankruptcy talk is nonsense. Mr. Parker is running this place better than I have ever seen. Once again not perfect but compared to the clowns before him. Not even close.

We have major problems that need to be fixed. Both contract and operations. It is so much better than 4 years ago. Hard to believe but this contract kicks our previous contracts asses all the way back to 2003 or even further. Improvements take time. We have got some outside section six. I donít know if Dan Carey has anything to do with it. I donít like his abuse of union money. Did not vote for him first time and will not next time.

jcountry
06-13-2018, 05:55 AM
You guys are wearing me out. ACD is settled. There is no use debating it anymore. We can comeback and complain about 5 day trips and lack of high time day trips in a year or two. Iíll start...... This is fAAtiguing..... Worst schedules Iíve ever seen at AA..... How can we let them get away with this...... Iím applying to DL, UA, SW..... informational picketing now...... letís take out an ad in USA Today...... am I missing anything?

How about some strongly-worded emails from Carey himself??

Canít wait to see him griping about something he negotiated entirely on his own. Sure. Itís someone elseís fault....

Iím sure that 20k expense he attempted to get reimbursed for his spousal unit was someone elseís fault as well.

nimslow
06-13-2018, 06:29 AM
As a guy who bids reserve half the year myself, you are full of it! I donít for one second believe you are flying 18 days. If you are, scheduling has it in for you. Iím way jr to you and 8-12 days working per month is pretty avg. heck, last NOV and DEC I flew 4. If you are flying 18 days on reserve, you are getting hosed and should definitely bid a line that will pay you more.

I get it, you want your cake and eat it too. You arenít senior enough to hold weekends off on the award, so you bid reserve. I donít have a problem with that. You do get stuck with all the slash trips on reserve because people trade out of them. I personally like them if Iím on reserve. Itís nice sitting and getting paid while on a nice layover. In my time here I have broken guarantee on reserve once, maybe twice. Reserves on our fleet just really arenít used that much and I think you know that.

Look, if you want 5:15ACD so you can bid weekends off, thatís cool. But just know that you will be senior someday and you will be working 16 days for 84hrs. I thought a pilots dream was to always be as productive as possible and get 18-21 days off. I know thatís my goal, maybe itís not yours.

Itís no use arguing anymore. 5:15 ACD is already a done deal. We are waisting our breath. Canít wait to fly those 5 day trips for 5:15 per day!!

It's very base and seat dependent. Be glad you are in a properly staffed base and seat. In my status, 15+ days a month of flying isn't unusual at all. We spend plenty of time dead heading to other bases, to cover flying as well.

Frip
06-13-2018, 07:31 AM
Ahhhhhh....

The old "You'll be senior some day" bit...

Actually, a lot of folks won't be - ever.

If that was even a good reason.

Decades of crap for a couple years' goodies is not a good trade.

Rawhide16
06-13-2018, 11:56 AM
A five day will be worth 25.15.

I think you mean 26.15.

havick206
06-13-2018, 12:26 PM
Out of curiosity, how come something as important as a 2 year contract extension in the current market doesnít go to a vote?

OVBIII
06-13-2018, 01:51 PM
Out of curiosity, how come something as important as a 2 year contract extension in the current market doesnít go to a vote?

To be honest, no one has provided proof this was more than just a rumor. (unless I completely missed it)

Cheddar
06-13-2018, 03:28 PM
Itís not even on C&R, so itís obviously not even close to being a good rumor. Sheesh.

Now whatís a red-eye and since when are we doing 7 day trips with embedded 30 hour rest? [emoji854]




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Saabs
06-13-2018, 03:49 PM
Heck ACD even helps out a bunch of widebody trips!

Sliceback
06-13-2018, 05:41 PM
To be honest, no one has provided proof this was more than just a rumor. (unless I completely missed it)

It was mentioned as a concept so I wouldnít be surprised if itís been discussed internally.

An organization has to consider all possible options and the value of a contract extension has to be evaluated.

OVBIII
06-13-2018, 05:49 PM
It was mentioned as a concept so I wouldnít be surprised if itís been discussed internally.

An organization has to consider all possible options and the value of a contract extension has to be evaluated.

Absolutely, operational concepts are always important; and I agree that anything and everything has to be considered. I was just elucidating the fact nothing has been presented to the pilot corps, thus nothing for us to get spun up about.

Cheddar
06-14-2018, 06:25 PM
Man I had to look up elucidate... and I was an English major in a former life.

Niiiiiiiiiice


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Name User
06-14-2018, 06:44 PM
Man I had to look up elucidate... and I was an English major in a former life.

Niiiiiiiiiice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a real word? I thought it was some sort of weird autocorrect thing. Looked way too ornate to be real.

Impressed.

Al Czervik
06-14-2018, 07:06 PM
Man I had to look up elucidate... and I was an English major in a former life.

Niiiiiiiiiice


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I cant stand people who use big words when a simple ones work.
And the Dutch.

OVBIII
06-15-2018, 02:25 AM
I cant stand people who use big words when a simple ones work.
And the Dutch.

The Dutch scare me.

mainlineAF
06-15-2018, 04:30 AM
It might not be a bad idea to get some quick gains locked up in a 2 year extension. Many economists are predicting a recession starting late 2019/early 2020.

If the economy tanks the odds of us getting bogged down in a protracted contract dispute are high.

jcountry
06-15-2018, 06:04 AM
It was mentioned as a concept so I wouldnít be surprised if itís been discussed internally.

An organization has to consider all possible options and the value of a contract extension has to be evaluated.

Oh, yeah....

Because APA is real good at considering stuff.

Great track record.

jcountry
06-15-2018, 06:06 AM
It might not be a bad idea to get some quick gains locked up in a 2 year extension. Many economists are predicting a recession starting late 2019/early 2020.

If the economy tanks the odds of us getting bogged down in a protracted contract dispute are high.

Id be cool with an extension..... IF they really (And I mean REALLY) fix LTD. Our current plan is complete crap.

7576FO
06-15-2018, 07:01 AM
Dude, youíve crossed the line into delusional territory. Do you just make this crap up or are you really that brainwashed by your PHL/Clt reps?

Not only will ACD be implemented, it will also improve our schedules and result in us having industry leading trip and duty rigs.

You need to stop listening to certain reps with agendas that have nothing to do with facts....and maybe start thanking Dan and those hard working APA volunteers who brought you these improvements.

Back to the OP topic. So, if we get industry leading hotel language, profit sharing, LTD and STD fixes, for a two year extension, Iíd say it would pass in a New Jersey minute.

+1 aa73 is correct!
Thanks!

Laker24
06-15-2018, 11:37 AM
You guys are forgetting a big hole in our contract. Scheduling practices and specifically recovery obligation. One of the biggest reasons there are delta pilots making 50, 60k+ in a month is that they are not obligated to be on reserve if their trip cancels or is bought by training. Then they can pick up premium on top of those pay protected days. Speaking of training they should be forced to buy line trips from pilots and not be allowed to pull trips out of PBS.

Saabs
06-15-2018, 12:02 PM
You guys are forgetting a big hole in our contract. Scheduling practices and specifically recovery obligation. One of the biggest reasons there are delta pilots making 50, 60k+ in a month is that they are not obligated to be on reserve if their trip cancels or is bought by training. Then they can pick up premium on top of those pay protected days. Speaking of training they should be forced to buy line trips from pilots and not be allowed to pull trips out of PBS.

What do united and delta have for cancellations?

We need to get rid of makeup and make premium 200%

And stop the flying reserves up to noon on their days off. Heck just make days off days off. Still no clue why a DFP is different than a 24 or what any of that means.

mainlineAF
06-15-2018, 01:09 PM
You guys are forgetting a big hole in our contract. Scheduling practices and specifically recovery obligation. One of the biggest reasons there are delta pilots making 50, 60k+ in a month is that they are not obligated to be on reserve if their trip cancels or is bought by training. Then they can pick up premium on top of those pay protected days. Speaking of training they should be forced to buy line trips from pilots and not be allowed to pull trips out of PBS.



Pretty sure DL has a form of recovery obligation if their trip cancels.

Iíd rather not be able to pick up over vacation or double dip when my trip gets bought. That causes us to need more pilots which will allow us to get off reserve faster/ upgrade quicker etc. itís a different philosophy.

Frip
06-15-2018, 02:15 PM
And stop the flying reserves up to noon on their days off. Heck just make days off days off.

Ditto the Moveable Day
A day off should be A Day Off

Write your Reps

Laker24
06-15-2018, 03:24 PM
Pretty sure DL has a form of recovery obligation if their trip cancels.

Iíd rather not be able to pick up over vacation or double dip when my trip gets bought. That causes us to need more pilots which will allow us to get off reserve faster/ upgrade quicker etc. itís a different philosophy.

I have to disagree with you on the upgrade. I have many friends at delta. The reason upgrade is running so junior is because senior FOs can easily out earn junior captains. They have many FOs making >300k. The reason they can easily exceed 150+ hours of credit a month is due to their scheduling rules and ability to make double, triple, quadruple time with cancellations pickups etc. Research ďgreen slip with conflict.Ē But the great thing is if you want to avoid work you can do that too. Our whole system is just so archaic and confusing. It would be forgivable if it translated into more days off and money.

Thedude
06-15-2018, 04:26 PM
I have to disagree with you on the upgrade. I have many friends at delta. The reason upgrade is running so junior is because senior FOs can easily out earn junior captains. They have many FOs making >300k. The reason they can easily exceed 150+ hours of credit a month is due to their scheduling rules and ability to make double, triple, quadruple time with cancellations pickups etc. Research ďgreen slip with conflict.Ē But the great thing is if you want to avoid work you can do that too. Our whole system is just so archaic and confusing. It would be forgivable if it translated into more days off and money.

Right now the biggest obstacle is the crowd that had to poop on a stick to get hired here. They have known no other way and are very resistant to change.

Andrew_VT
06-15-2018, 06:21 PM
Right now the biggest obstacle is the crowd that had to poop on a stick to get hired here. They have known no other way and are very resistant to change.

Fake news.

"We need to thank Dan and the APA" and "Pretty sure Delta has the same stuff as us"

Words of guiding wisdom from the cohort that will ensure we never exceed Delta in anything but practically meaningless pay-tables.

Sliceback
06-15-2018, 06:54 PM
Anyone running for office?

Al Czervik
06-23-2018, 04:20 PM
Anyone running for office?

Yes slice, we are.

BOGSAT
06-23-2018, 05:33 PM
https://apatoalpa.com

Even if your not a fan, the vote to switch should send a strong message.

jcountry
06-23-2018, 07:02 PM
https://apatoalpa.com

Even if your not a fan, the vote to switch should send a strong message.

It would also send a strong message that we are stupid enough to pay twice the dues for nothing.

nAAtive
06-23-2018, 07:19 PM
It would also send a strong message that we are stupid enough to pay twice the dues for nothing.
They would reduce dues. But again you just donít get it. ALPA contracts have always been better than Apa contracts.

Name User
06-23-2018, 08:53 PM
They would reduce dues. But again you just donít get it. ALPA contracts have always been better than Apa contracts.

In some areas. APA always had by far the best retirement. Also they have always been big on limiting hours worked and having more pilots on property.

nAAtive
06-23-2018, 10:59 PM
In some areas. APA always had by far the best retirement. Also they have always been big on limiting hours worked and having more pilots on property.

None of those help a prospective or junior pilot now. Apa has never had an overall industry leading contract.

A330FoodCritic
06-25-2018, 12:42 AM
Ditto the Moveable Day
A day off should be A Day Off

Write your Reps

When they fly you to 1159 on your day off do they replace the day off?

swaayze
06-25-2018, 06:42 AM
When they fly you to 1159 on your day off do they replace the day off?

No, but if on reserve then your time off rolls (if you had 48 hrs off from 0000-0000 then you get 48 hrs off from 1159-1159) - so you got that goin for ya.

nAAtive
06-25-2018, 07:44 AM
When they fly you to 1159 on your day off do they replace the day off?

If you have a late RAP you often donít get anything back for flying into your day off. Early RAPs will be shifted later.

nAAtive
06-25-2018, 07:45 AM
No, but if on reserve then your time off rolls (if you had 48 hrs off from 0000-0000 then you get 48 hrs off from 1159-1159) - so you got that goin for ya.

Unless somethings changed you get your debrief time, domicile rest, then the 48 hours off. That would be an extra 12:15 or 12:30 of off time.

drinksonme
06-25-2018, 09:14 AM
Unless somethings changed you get your debrief time, domicile rest, then the 48 hours off. That would be an extra 12:15 or 12:30 of off time.

Itís not extra, itís replacement of the time off you lost. Thatís the spin, not saying you, but thatís how the company and some union folks want you to feel/think about it. None of itís a good deal. You lose a day off even by 1 minute, it should be replaced and all time flown on the day of should be premium. But thats just wAAy to far out there for APA.

mainlineAF
06-25-2018, 09:16 AM
None of those help a prospective or junior pilot now. Apa has never had an overall industry leading contract.



How does requiring more pilots not help a prospective or junior pilot [email protected]

nAAtive
06-25-2018, 09:26 AM
Itís not extra, itís replacement of the time off you lost. Thatís the spin, not saying you, but thatís how the company and some union folks want you to feel/think about it. None of itís a good deal. You lose a day off even by 1 minute, it should be replaced and all time flown on the day of should be premium. But thats just wAAy to far out there for APA.
I agree. Just wanted people to make sure they knew if you have a late RAP day one back on call you can potentially get nothing back for flying on your day off.

Andrew_VT
06-25-2018, 10:44 AM
How does requiring more pilots not help a prospective or junior pilot [email protected]

If requiring more pilots is one of the good things about APA, then it's pretty embarrassing that Delta and United are on track to have higher pilot counts than us soon.

EMBFlyer
06-26-2018, 05:39 PM
In some areas. APA always had by far the best retirement. Also they have always been big on limiting hours worked and having more pilots on property.

The problem is APA has always been about "jobs"...not "THE job"!

swaayze
06-27-2018, 07:52 AM
Unless somethings changed you get your debrief time, domicile rest, then the 48 hours off. That would be an extra 12:15 or 12:30 of off time.

Sorry, I think you are correct. Forgot about the domicile rest first.



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