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View Full Version : E190 no VOR/DME approaches


TCASTESTOK
06-12-2018, 01:34 PM
From reddit
E190 crew requests the RNP for 22L instead of the VOR approach but gets initially denied. Eventually given the Visual.
KJFK-NY-App-ROBER-May-26-2018-1630ZJetBlue-2.mp3 (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/jetblue-e190-unable-vor-22l-and-ba-pilot-accidental-transmission/?action=dlattach;attach=9965)


nuball5
06-12-2018, 01:37 PM
From reddit
E190 crew requests the RNP for 22L instead of the VOR approach but gets initially denied. Eventually given the Visual.
KJFK-NY-App-ROBER-May-26-2018-1630ZJetBlue-2.mp3 (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/jetblue-e190-unable-vor-22l-and-ba-pilot-accidental-transmission/?action=dlattach;attach=9965)

Lol thanks for that. It has a coded descent angle so it can do it.

hilltopflyer
06-12-2018, 01:40 PM
From reddit
E190 crew requests the RNP for 22L instead of the VOR approach but gets initially denied. Eventually given the Visual.
KJFK-NY-App-ROBER-May-26-2018-1630ZJetBlue-2.mp3 (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/jetblue-e190-unable-vor-22l-and-ba-pilot-accidental-transmission/?action=dlattach;attach=9965)

There is an angle so they can do it. Just no dive and drives.

Edit: oops he beat me to it


Speedbird2263
06-12-2018, 03:23 PM
From reddit
E190 crew requests the RNP for 22L instead of the VOR approach but gets initially denied. Eventually given the Visual.
KJFK-NY-App-ROBER-May-26-2018-1630ZJetBlue-2.mp3 (https://forums.liveatc.net/atcaviation-audio-clips/jetblue-e190-unable-vor-22l-and-ba-pilot-accidental-transmission/?action=dlattach;attach=9965)

Just did it today. It doesn’t mention (GPS) on the chart so there maybe a little initial hang up there for some folks however echoing all above, it contains a CDA in the FMS, so it is ok to accept the approach as published.

Bluedriver
06-12-2018, 04:36 PM
Just did it today. It doesn’t mention (GPS) on the chart so there maybe a little initial hang up there for some folks however echoing all above, it contains a CDA in the FMS, so it is ok to accept the approach as published.

Add 50ft, press Nav, go to hotel and have beer.

Why do people make this so hard?!?

I kid...

mainlineAF
06-12-2018, 05:10 PM
Not a JetBlue guy but that controller was a real tool. When someone says they’re unable then just deal with it. They could have had some equipment MEL’ed or who knows what. He doesn’t need to start some ridiculous investigation on frequency.

Southerner
06-12-2018, 09:45 PM
Not a JetBlue guy but that controller was a real tool. When someone says they’re unable then just deal with it. They could have had some equipment MEL’ed or who knows what. He doesn’t need to start some ridiculous investigation on frequency.

So a flight crew doesn't understand the SOP, and it's the controller who is the problem? Seems legit...

The controller was confused why they are the only JetBlue plane that cannot accept the approach. It makes sense for him to ask why.

BeatNavy
06-12-2018, 11:04 PM
So a flight crew doesn't understand the SOP, and it's the controller who is the problem? Seems legit...

The controller was confused why they are the only JetBlue plane that cannot accept the approach. It makes sense for him to ask why.

Didn’t you all have each recurrent 190 crew do the VOR13L last year with emphasis on telling crews that we can do VOR approaches with CDAs? Wasn’t that also in a QDL? Both of those guys went to recurrent last year...it wasn’t a newhire in the right seat. Those guys are both JFK based, and that’s not an unusual approach there. Weird.

cougar
06-12-2018, 11:25 PM
Odd to ask for the RNP 22L as well. ATC in US refers to approaches as RNAV Y 22L, or RNAV Z 22L. Only JAR OPS/ICAO uses RNP or RNP AR terminology. Confusing as to which approach he was requesting.

rvr1800
06-13-2018, 04:00 AM
Odd to ask for the RNP 22L as well. ATC in US refers to approaches as RNAV Y 22L, or RNAV Z 22L. Only JAR OPS/ICAO uses RNP or RNP AR terminology. Confusing as to which approach he was requesting.

The chart has RNP in the title. That’s probably the least confusing thing about the whole ordeal. Just a couple of guys who don’t understand what they can and can’t do. Not really safety related so not a huge deal. Unless they diverted because of it.

Gearswinger
06-13-2018, 03:17 PM
Odd to ask for the RNP 22L as well. ATC in US refers to approaches as RNAV Y 22L, or RNAV Z 22L. Only JAR OPS/ICAO uses RNP or RNP AR terminology. Confusing as to which approach he was requesting.

When we fly into DCA they assign us the RNP 19. There is nothing confusing about that terminology, it's on the (Z 22L)chart, and if it was only international operators using it, surely a NY controller would have talked to one of those guys at least once or twice in his career.

aewanabe
06-14-2018, 03:05 PM
So a flight crew doesn't understand the SOP, and it's the controller who is the problem? Seems legit...

The controller was confused why they are the only JetBlue plane that cannot accept the approach. It makes sense for him to ask why.

Or, like so many of our SOPs, they are poorly written and essentially un-taught. And for years in LOFT scenarios the schoolhouse was pushing “request the RNP” for that runway.

The approach meets all the requirements to fly as a precision approach, EXCEPT it lacks “or gps” in the title, which may or may not be required by E190 FCOM VOL 1. (paragraph 3.27.9.1 and 3.27.9.2 contradict each other here). Shocking that the crew could be confused here with our grade-A training:rolleyes:

N311JB
06-14-2018, 03:46 PM
I’m told by my ORD friends JFK is the biggest training facility in the country. It’s also where controllers go for their last “chance”. Just food for thought. Some of them are pros but the most are an embarrassment. But this is only tower I speak of. Approach. Not sure but it the only airport where I’ve asked to call them when I get on the ground. Christ I’ve been given a hold on departure at that place

2StgTurbine
06-14-2018, 05:03 PM
I’m told by my ORD friends JFK is the biggest training facility in the country.

I have heard that about IAD, DCA, and SLC also. ATC training is probably like everything else in aviation, more complicated than those outside of the particular field understand.

Southerner
06-14-2018, 05:59 PM
Or, like so many of our SOPs, they are poorly written and essentially un-taught. And for years in LOFT scenarios the schoolhouse was pushing “request the RNP” for that runway.

The approach meets all the requirements to fly as a precision approach, EXCEPT it lacks “or gps” in the title, which may or may not be required by E190 FCOM VOL 1. (paragraph 3.27.9.1 and 3.27.9.2 contradict each other here). Shocking that the crew could be confused here with our grade-A training:rolleyes:

If it has vertical guidance, it's legal. (With the exception of certain international RNP AR approaches)

Read the Ops Spec if you're confused.

aewanabe
06-15-2018, 02:31 AM
If it has vertical guidance, it's legal. (With the exception of certain international RNP AR approaches)

Read the Ops Spec if you're confused.
I agree it’s legal. I’d argue that in a pinch, crews are going to the FCOM for guidance, not the OpSpecs.

CaptCoolHand
06-15-2018, 06:55 AM
I have heard that about IAD, DCA, and SLC also. ATC training is probably like everything else in aviation, more complicated than those outside of the particular field understand.

Every ATC facility is a training facility. it's OJT.

There's no start here because it's easier or send them there because they're good.

You get assigned out of OKC, choose to accept it then may transfer if staffing and seniority permits within your qualifications.