Airline Pilot Forums

Airline Pilot Forums was designed to be a community where working airline pilots can share ideas and information about the aviation field. In the forum you will find information about major and regional airline carriers, career training, interview and job seeker help, finance, and living the airline pilot lifestyle.




TheBrightside
06-13-2018, 02:38 PM
Disclaimer; I am not the person that this happened to. I am relaying it to the community for educational purposes. The post will keep to the facts and let you draw your own conclusion about the present state of the ABX work environment.

For those with limited time I'll start with the TLDR of the post.

TLDR;

An HR complaint filed on the chief pilot and DO of ops at ABX. Harassment charges have been file forcing a Captain to fly his flight when hit hotel had and fire and the entire hotel guests were not allowed back in for almost an hour. There was another hour of no electricity in a hotel in the islands with high heat. He was suppose to get ready for his trip during this time. Scheduling approved him getting a new hotel and resetting his crew rest. The chief pilot called and wanted to change his report time. A follow up call by the DO he was told to either fatigue out or fly the trip else there would be penalties.

Details

June 7th;

Removed from a flight due to crew rest issue. Sent to a none compliant hotel on a lower income island nation.

Woken by a call around three hours after check in from an angry hotel staff. The airline had not paid for the rooms.

A request was made to scheduling to reset the ten hour crew rest due to the interruption. This was approved. The were notified that they would commercial back to the US the next day in the morning.

June 8th;

The next morning the crew met for breakfast. There was still the issue of non payment. The crew went to get in the van but scheduling informed them they would be operating a flight and to go back to the hotel.

Several hours later after having difficulty sleeping a fire alarm went off. Initially the crew was told it was a false alarm. They were told to return to their rooms. Approximately twenty minutes later we were informed that there was smoke and to evacuate to the parking lot. They were told to leave everything and go.

A call was made to scheduling to make them aware of the situation.

One hour later before the show time a call was made to scheduling to request crew rest. The reason for this is that the crews rest had been interrupted multiple times due to varying problems. The had spent that last hour standing in a high heat, high humidity environment with no reprieve.

The captain was contacted by the chief pilot. The chief tried to get the captain to accept that the fire alarm going off the first time could be considered their show time. The crew members at this time could not return to their rooms to collect their belongings.

A call is made to scheduling approximately half an hour later after the crew is let back in. Scheduling approves their ten hours of rest. The hotel has no power. The elevator and air conditioning system are inoperative.

A call is made to the captain from the chief pilot. The chief pilot presses for the time change and heavily presses the captain to try to go. Being physiologically incapable of operating in a safe manner the captain stood by the fact that he needed more rest.

The DO calls. He informs the captain it is a legal assignment. The captain has a choice of either calling out fatigued or flying the trip. This was viewed as an ultimatum with no flexibility. Those were the only two options given.

The captain felt his safety was never addressed. He felt pressured into doing something he didn't feel comfortable doing. He also felt that management never cared about the issues of the crew. They only wanted them to complete their tasks.


ROBsINtheHOOD
06-13-2018, 04:05 PM
Who or what is causing / forcing the chief pilot and DO to behave in such an irresponsible and potentially criminal manner ? That appears to be central to the issue. This sounds like something you would hear from a third rate African operator and not a US airline. The owners should be held to account. Could there not be an undercover operation created to find out these scoundrels ? Let`s all hope for justice.

Birdsmash
06-13-2018, 04:30 PM
Is the DO “Captain” Briner? Soapys good buddy?


wjcandee
06-13-2018, 04:38 PM
Aren't the calls to/from sked and with CP/DO recorded?

Kougarok
06-13-2018, 04:57 PM
Is the DO “Captain” Briner? Soapys good buddy?

He’s the manager of flight crew training. The DO is BB.

To answer the other question. The calls to/from crew scheduling are recorded. The calls from the CP/DO probably aren’t especially if they use their cell phone.

tiredofjrm
06-13-2018, 05:29 PM
Always have a recorder app on your phone.

wjcandee
06-13-2018, 05:39 PM
The calls to/from crew scheduling are recorded. The calls from the CP/DO probably aren’t especially if they use their cell phone.

Always have a recorder app on your phone.

Thanks, Kougarok.

Tiredofjrm: Exactly. Management types would be idiots not to assume that every call they participate in is being recorded, especially contentious ones.

Oh. Wait.

motorclutch
06-13-2018, 06:23 PM
For the record this isn’t the first harassment charge filed against this management team.

woog315
06-13-2018, 09:31 PM
Why didn't he just call fatigued? What am I missing?

maxjet
06-14-2018, 03:00 AM
Why didn't he just call fatigued? What am I missing?

I agree. From what I read the CP asked him to.

captjns
06-14-2018, 04:28 AM
The best route the crew could have taken would have been to call fatigue.

Does ABX provide it’s crews and Ops personnel with Fatigue Education and Awareness Training?

Either something’s missing or there has to be more to the story.

After all, the OP provides a “Disclaimer” before an accounting of the events that occurred.

Av8er1550
06-14-2018, 04:37 AM
Yeah should’ve been a fatigue call. I would’ve just said “screw it” I’m fatigued. I know personally that things between ABX and the regionals are very different though. They still have that old airline mentality. When I was in recurrent for my regional last year, our chief pilot spoke in front of our class and encouraged fatigue calls if it’s legitimate. And we don’t even do the back side of the clock flying like ABX does. The trips at ABX can be very fatiguing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Checkers21
06-14-2018, 05:23 AM
Disclaimer; I am not the person that this happened to. I am relaying it to the community for educational purposes. The post will keep to the facts and let you draw your own conclusion about the present state of the ABX work environment.

For those with limited time I'll start with the TLDR of the post.

TLDR;

An HR complaint filed on the chief pilot and DO of ops at ABX. Harassment charges have been file forcing a Captain to fly his flight when hit hotel had and fire and the entire hotel guests were not allowed back in for almost an hour. There was another hour of no electricity in a hotel in the islands with high heat. He was suppose to get ready for his trip during this time. Scheduling approved him getting a new hotel and resetting his crew rest. The chief pilot called and wanted to change his report time. A follow up call by the DO he was told to either fatigue out or fly the trip else there would be penalties.

Details

June 7th;

Removed from a flight due to crew rest issue. Sent to a none compliant hotel on a lower income island nation.

Woken by a call around three hours after check in from an angry hotel staff. The airline had not paid for the rooms.

A request was made to scheduling to reset the ten hour crew rest due to the interruption. This was approved. The were notified that they would commercial back to the US the next day in the morning.

June 8th;

The next morning the crew met for breakfast. There was still the issue of non payment. The crew went to get in the van but scheduling informed them they would be operating a flight and to go back to the hotel.

Several hours later after having difficulty sleeping a fire alarm went off. Initially the crew was told it was a false alarm. They were told to return to their rooms. Approximately twenty minutes later we were informed that there was smoke and to evacuate to the parking lot. They were told to leave everything and go.

A call was made to scheduling to make them aware of the situation.

One hour later before the show time a call was made to scheduling to request crew rest. The reason for this is that the crews rest had been interrupted multiple times due to varying problems. The had spent that last hour standing in a high heat, high humidity environment with no reprieve.

The captain was contacted by the chief pilot. The chief tried to get the captain to accept that the fire alarm going off the first time could be considered their show time. The crew members at this time could not return to their rooms to collect their belongings.

A call is made to scheduling approximately half an hour later after the crew is let back in. Scheduling approves their ten hours of rest. The hotel has no power. The elevator and air conditioning system are inoperative.

A call is made to the captain from the chief pilot. The chief pilot presses for the time change and heavily presses the captain to try to go. Being physiologically incapable of operating in a safe manner the captain stood by the fact that he needed more rest.

The DO calls. He informs the captain it is a legal assignment. The captain has a choice of either calling out fatigued or flying the trip. This was viewed as an ultimatum with no flexibility. Those were the only two options given.

The captain felt his safety was never addressed. He felt pressured into doing something he didn't feel comfortable doing. He also felt that management never cared about the issues of the crew. They only wanted them to complete their tasks.

Proofread much? Looks like a third grader wrote this.

Kougarok
06-14-2018, 08:25 AM
Proofread much? Looks like a third grader wrote this.

Begone management Troll!

Kougarok
06-14-2018, 08:31 AM
Yeah should’ve been a fatigue call. I would’ve just said “screw it” I’m fatigued. I know personally that things between ABX and the regionals are very different though. They still have that old airline mentality. When I was in recurrent for my regional last year, our chief pilot spoke in front of our class and encouraged fatigue calls if it’s legitimate. And we don’t even do the back side of the clock flying like ABX does. The trips at ABX can be very fatiguing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s a little more complicated then that. Why should the pilot have to call in fatigued and be charged a sick day when it’s obviously the companies fault? The company should have extended his rest period due to the fire alarm, schedule rollback and ineptitude on the hotel bill.

Checkers21
06-14-2018, 08:53 AM
Begone management Troll!

Whatever bro... this guy can’t even write in complete sentences. How’s anyone expected to take this seriously?

Kougarok
06-14-2018, 09:01 AM
Whatever bro... this guy can’t even write in complete sentences. How’s anyone expected to take this seriously?

Says the man with 8 posts....

abxflyr
06-14-2018, 10:50 AM
It’s a little more complicated then that. Why should the pilot have to call in fatigued and be charged a sick day when it’s obviously the companies fault? The company should have extended his rest period due to the fire alarm, schedule rollback and ineptitude on the hotel bill.

This is the one item with the FRM program at ABX that I really have a huge problem with. As mentioned, *if* the fatigue issue is not one that truly belongs to the pilot then why does the individual have to utilize their personal sick banks hours to compensate (the company) for the issue at hand. Clearly if everything is done right by the company and its contracted hotel (i.e. a/c work, rooms dark, bed/sheets comfy and clean, no construction, no fire alarms, no elevator or housekeeping issue) then the day is on the individual.

Anyone who has been in the biz for a while knows sometimes it (sleep) just doesn't work for you. The problems can be personal or physical...regardless those are when you should be required to dip into your sick bank. It may be day one, day middle, or day last of your sequence, who cares; if you're not rested....no flying! If the cause(s) are not individual then its even worse since both crewmembers will not be rested.

Companies should place in their hotel contracts requests for notification of occurrences that may be of concern for day-time sleepers. I don't know of any hotels that preforms fire alarm maintenance at 3a.m., nor fix bathroom tiles and plumbing at those hours. Better airlines will have this in their agreements and notify (and move) their crewmember to alternate facilities for a few days based on information provided by the hotel.

Kougarok
06-14-2018, 03:11 PM
I’ve looked at the actual report from the Captain involved. The gist of what happened is close on this Forum but not exact. It was a mediocre edit. The original has very good grammar for you grammar nazis. One of the key points is he did end up calling off fatigued after being pressured by the DO.

Turning into a real **** show here!

motorclutch
06-14-2018, 03:15 PM
The **** show got more intense yesterday. The feds aren’t happy. Soapys true colors have have been exposed again. Leader of a headless snake!

nitefr8dog
06-15-2018, 04:37 AM
The best route the crew could have taken would have been to call fatigue.

Does ABX provide it’s crews and Ops personnel with Fatigue Education and Awareness Training?

Either something’s missing or there has to be more to the story.

After all, the OP provides a “Disclaimer” before an accounting of the events that occurred.

Really? I am going to say there is not a single carrier operating without a FAA required FRM program in place. But nobody can make the call for another individual. Its a little different in the ACMI freight world than the passenger carriers. You call in fatigued at an outbase...there often times is no way to recover the 50 to 60k of fresh fish or flowers or whatever. Unlike passengers who have no loyalty to that carrier and just get shoved on the next available flight. Here many times the flight is cancelled and the freight goes no where. Not a good reason to not call off fatigued....but it certainly plays in the decision process. And if pilots at ACMI carriers say they would never let that influence their decision they are lying. They will be the same ones who are asleep 30 mn after take off.

METO Guido
06-15-2018, 05:27 AM
Fatigue risk management, as approved, becomes an element of SMS. Anyone seeking to override a crew call for additional rest is out of touch with the regulatory process.

nitefr8dog
06-15-2018, 06:00 AM
Fatigue risk management, as approved, becomes an element of SMS. Anyone seeking to override a crew call for additional rest is out of touch with the regulatory process.

Yes ...and without spending alot of time researching because I really don't care... I am guessing with all the awarness focused on fatigue lately it has become "required" by most POI's or the FAA at every airline. JMHO

max8222
06-15-2018, 06:03 AM
If the freight is that important to both customers and company then the company should be making every effort for the crew to be well rested and ready for the flight. This cost extra money which should be passed to the customer. So if the customer really wants his stuff moved should be willing to pay cost for the reliability.

You get what you pay for.

nitefr8dog
06-15-2018, 06:18 AM
If the freight is that important to both customers and company then the company should be making every effort for the crew to be well rested and ready for the flight. This cost extra money which should be passed to the customer. So if the customer really wants his stuff moved should be willing to pay cost for the reliability.

You get what you pay for.

We are talking about ABX yes? The words extra money and ABX do not sound right when said together.

gumpscheck
06-15-2018, 06:37 AM
We are talking about ABX yes? The words extra money and ABX do not sound right when said together.

Well, not really. ABX/ATSG probably charges extra to the customer with the excuse of crew rest and flight safety. The problem is that JH and his boys won’t use it for crew rest and flight safety. They just pocket the extra charges and try to squeeze more work out of the pilots. Nothing but lying and cheating scoundrels.

METO Guido
06-17-2018, 06:36 AM
Yes ...and without spending alot of time researching because I really don't care... I am guessing with all the awarness focused on fatigue lately it has become "required" by most POI's or the FAA at every airline. JMHO
Under provisions of Pt. 117, AC120-103A and SMS implementation guidelines, can't imagine any Part 121 certificate holder currently operating without (FRMS) one. The underlying concept of SMS, as best I understand it, self surveillance to the regulator's satisfaction. Advocating a crewmember reconsider a decision to obtain rest when reporting too fatigued (unfit) for duty, if substantiated, obviously in conflict with a carrier's signed commitment to safety. On the other hand, always another hand, you do need to declare fatigue and follow-up with the necessary FRM paperwork.

METO Guido
06-17-2018, 07:09 AM
You missed the part where I said I really don't care....And I really don't!
Excellent! Don't let me sleep past T/D okay?

nitefr8dog
06-17-2018, 07:14 AM
Excellent! Don't let me sleep past T/D okay?

You think anyone would even notice.....certainly not in the always late DHL system.

Fdxlag2
06-17-2018, 07:25 AM
Always have a recorder app on your phone.

And if put into rest for 10 hours, don’t answer the phone for 10 hours.

nitefr8dog
06-17-2018, 08:03 AM
[QUOTE=Fdxlag2;2616029]And if put into rest for 10 hours, don’t answer the phone for 10 hours.[
Exactly...who does not unplug the hotel phone and put their cell on silent .....

dynap09
06-26-2018, 08:08 PM
Help me understand.

There's some kind of initial crew rest issue already, not fully described. Company says OK, and pilot doesn't fly scheduled flight.
Then pilot has *another* crew rest issue, company is OK with a reset on crew rest.
Then ANOTHER crew rest issue, company says go ahead and make your wake-up start of duty time or call in fatigued and we'll take you off this upcoming flight?

This is now criminal harassment at ABX?

Kougarok
06-26-2018, 08:39 PM
Help me understand.

There's some kind of initial crew rest issue already, not fully described. Company says OK, and pilot doesn't fly scheduled flight.
Then pilot has *another* crew rest issue, company is OK with a reset on crew rest.
Then ANOTHER crew rest issue, company says go ahead and make your wake-up start of duty time or call in fatigued and we'll take you off this upcoming flight?

This is now criminal harassment at ABX?

It’s not a criminal complaint. Here’s the exact harassment complaint to HR redacted for names. Judge for yourself.

“I believe it best and easiest to follow to describe the events of June Xth and Xth 2018 in the form of a chronological outline:

June Xth

-0030L- Removed from Flt XXX due to crew duty day issue and sent to the non-standard, vastly sub-par, Holiday Inn Express Port of Spain Airport for near minimum crewrest to commercial to KMIA with a scheduled report at the airport of 1359.

-1100L- My FO and I were awakened by angry phone calls from the hotel front desk, demanding we checkout and leave the hotel as ABX had not paid for the full length of our stay. This turned out to be absolutely true, as I discovered upon going to the front desk to calm and clarify the situation and confirmed upon calling the company.

-1130L- I requested and was granted a ten hour crewrest reset from Scheduling without hesitation, based on the interruption. The scheduler indicated it was no problem as none of us had assignments for the next day.

-1136L- Notified by Scheduling we are: commercialing to MIA with a report time at the airport of 0700L the next day (the Xth)

June Xth

-0630L- After having breakfast with the crew, we all loaded our bags in the car arranged to take us to the airport but were held up by the front desk claiming again ABX had not paid the bill and there was no credit card on file.

-0631L- Crew Scheduling called and directed me not to take the ride to the airport and not to show for my flight as they needed me to fly Flt XXX because its captain also had crew duty time issues. I removed my bags from the car and sent the other two pilots on their way to the airport I alone, checked back in, retrieved my key and returned to my room and to resume my crewrest as directed by the company.

-1240L- After having difficulty getting back to sleep (due to drinking coffee at breakfast) I was sound asleep when the fire alarm began going off. Startled and a bit disoriented, I quickly dressed, went out of the room, finding a hotel employee in the hallway, she said: “it’s just smoke, we are not evacuating, you may return to your room” I asked “are you sure?” And she said “yes”. I went back in my room and the alarm stopped several minutes later.

-1300L- The fire alarm sounded once again, and after a short time, this was accompanied by a pounding on my door. I answered the door and another hotel employee frantically alerted me there was in fact a fire and to leave everything and evacuate immediately. I returned to the room against his protests to put my shoes on. Luckily, my phone was already in my pocket so I could at least call the company. Everything else (including my ID, uniform and passport) I had to leave in the room.

-1302L- Once safely outside the hotel, I immediately called Scheduling to make them aware of the fire in the hotel.

-1402L- (Well BEFORE the 1425 airport showtime) I again called Scheduling to provide the company an update, since not a single person from ABX cared enough to call to check on my status in the hour that had passed, where I was still outside in the intense equatorial sun, as the fire department was there with hoses running into the building, I also suggested they should be prepared to reset my crewrest due to the severity and length of this hotel emergency.. She made no protest. I assumed it was going to be handled as easily as the previous day’s reset: not a problem; I was wrong!

-1413L- Chief Pilot calls me, very concerned, not at all for my well-being but rather solely and intently for performance of the flight to which I had been reassigned! He tells me has “an idea”: again not for my protection but that of the precious flight, we should set the time of the first fire alarm as my showtime and begin my duty day then! I was totally shocked and taken back, I told him it was not possible to do anything or consider any alternative realities until I could get back into the hotel to retrieve my things. I was particularly concerned about my passport which he clearly did not grasp the importance of. He was adamant I consider his insulting “idea” immediately…while I was standing with several hundred guests and employees outside a company provided hotel in sweltering heat and sun with a fire inside the hotel of unknown proportions. I asked how his mythical “idea” complied with long standing company policy regarding showtimes specifically and definitively defined and determined as when the pilot arrives at the airport and NO other time and the FARs with regard to duty and rest periods… or for that matter to reality itself. He insisted this was a “special case” and I must consider it as such. In the nine minutes he kept me on the phone, he never once asked how I was doing but certainly pressed his fantasy “idea”often enough.

-1443L Guests are finally allowed back into hotel and I am told by an assistant manager: the fire had occurred when one air conditioning “phases” failed, causing the other two to first overheat, smoke and then catch fire before the fuse blew! He also advised me: the elevator and air conditioning system would be inoperative until the fire damaged air conditioning systems could be repaired and the hotel would be on standby, emergency power until the fuse could be inspected and repaired. At this, I called Scheduling to request a fresh 10 hours for crewrest in another hotel. I received no pushback from Scheduling and was told they would work on it and call me back. I went back to my rapidly warming room which I found with the door standing open. Concerned again about my passport, airline ID, FAA license and pilot’s uniform, I quickly took an inventory and found nothing missing.

-1506L CP calls once again, even more agitated, he presses his previous “idea” yet again to the degree where I had to tell him to calm down twice! Upon learning about the 0631 call I had received from Scheduling, once again rather than showing concern for my situation, he shifts gears slightly and invents a new “idea”: in which now we will call 0631 as my show time and make MIA within 16 hours of that otherwise random time! He Insists repeatedly that while unusual and unorthodox it was “most conservative”! I point out: resetting me for ten hours is clearly more conservative and what is called for in light of the events of the day and their severity. Why was resetting my crewrest after a call from the front desk interrupted our previous crewrest not a problem the day prior, but now a reset due to a fire in the hotel and an evacuation interrupting my crewrest was a huge problem? This made absolutely no sense to me and must be driven by profitability concerns outweighing human decency, operational safety and regulatory standards. He then makes a ridiculous and insulting statement about “not coming to work at all” being the “the most conservative” approach of all. Frustrated and insulted by his apparent assumption of my ignorance despite my college education and steadfast 23 years of service to this company, I tell him neither of his history revising “ideas” is acceptable to me as neither reflect the reality of the events surrounding the emergency, nor were either FAR compliant (the FARs discuss in many places including both part 121 and part 91 that crew rest occurs immediately before assignment and must be established in advance, not revised in the past tense) or in anyway congruent with long standing, well established company policy as to when crew day begins or is allowed to begin by this company as set forward on every occasion I am aware of, including one this very week involving my First Officer’s duty start time a few days prior. Captain XXXX continues his angry, harassing demands for a total of 37 minutes on my cellphone, burning international minutes. Again with absolutely zero concern for me or my needs: I am sunburnt from standing in the sun for well over an hour, my room is now sweltering, I haven’t showered, I’m tired and still a bit frazzled by the fire and the hotel’s handling of the situation and the lack of security, he just burns time and minutes on my phone insulting and harassing me again and again.

-1613L- The company hired car, set up by Scheduling, arrives to take all of us to the new hotel for crew rest. The crew, who brought the aircraft in, most of whom were to fly it to MIA with me, have already been relieved of duty, cleared Customs and are also on their way to hotel. At this point, I believe the issue to be resolved and the discussions over. I am wrong again.

-1615L- While in the car with the three other crew members, enroute to the normal crew hotel the DO calls my cellphone, he is clearly agitated and annoyed. He rudely cuts off my attempt to state my case and gives me an angry ultimatum: He considers this a “legal flight assignment” and either I call in fatigued or fly the trip regardless of the day’s events . Again not a glimmer of concern for my well-being, status or situation! I am stunned, and taken a bit off balance, which I suspect was by design. I do quickly realize there is absolutely no reasoning with this man, his focus is solely and forcefully on the dire need (in his mind) for this trip to fly to Miami without further delay. I immediately accept Fatigue as an accurate enough description of the afternoon’s events. He has clearly given me no other options and refuses to recognize the emergency situation the company unintentionally placed me in. While it was unintentional, the company and certainly Flight management should have taken ownership of situation it placed me in and put my needs and concerns above and before inanimate cargo and an aging aircraft. Neither of which were going to cause loss of life or physical damage sitting safely on the ground at the airport. The cargo would only be a few hours late, but quite apparently human kindness and the well-being of HIS crew members is not even of the remotest priority for Captain XXXX.

I have been told on several occasions in the past by other pilots that the DO has made comments to them to the effect that he would fire me if I “screwed up again.” This though I have had only one 5B1 meeting and no other disciplinary problems in my 23 year career. Perhaps this twisted attitude fed his fury and lack of consideration.

This ugly scenario clearly shows the total disregard this company’s management has for its crews, their well-being, flight safety, the FARs and its own long established and strictly enforced policies when faced with possible delays and cancellations. Profitability is far too high a priority, when placed above safety and well-being.

Has ANY officer of this company called me and asked how I am doing or even what exactly happened? NO!
Not XX, not XX, not XX; and obviously not the DO or CP: their actions speak volumes as to the attitude of this company toward its employees. I have worked at ABX Air for 23 years, moved a significant amount of revenue cargo for this company and its customers all over the world, I have been a captain on two different aircraft, was furloughed for nearly two years, and all the while serving our country as an Air Force officer in no less than six wars, I deserve and demand at least some level of respect from those who draw their salary on my efforts and the efforts of the other pilots, at least enough respect to show some pinch of concern for our health and well being while in a foreign country experiencing an emergency. But instead, I am harassed, ridiculed, insulted and given angry ultimatums for merely following company policy in an attempt to be safe. I take great pride in the many years of dedicated service I have given both this company and this country, and I will not be harassed by any one while providing that service.

I demand written apologies from the two Flight Managers individually for their ill treatment of me. I want said apologies put in my permanent file only after I approve of their wording and content. A letter of apology from ABX Air management as a whole would be desirable and in order as well. Lastly, I strongly suggest and adamantly request an immediate and total reevaluation, replacement and updating of the goals, priorities, processes and personnel in Flight Department management with a much closer eye toward overall safety, crew health and well-being, FAR compliance and consistency in policy development and application with far less emphasis on flight timing and profitability above ALL the aforementioned leadership responsibilities. This complaint will be submitted to other entities as I deem necessary to produce results. Harassment and intimidation have no place in the modern work environment and run counter to the objectives of safety and competency in aviation we should collectively strive toward. The year is 2018, not 1968, It is time to remove the dead, rotting wood and update this company’s policies and processes before it’s too late and someone is severely injured or dies at their hands.

Sincerely,

XXXXXX X. XXXXX, LtCol, USAF (retired)
Boeing 767 Captain, ABX Air”

dynap09
06-26-2018, 10:01 PM
This long sequence is a "total disregard" for safety? How long was the pilot off duty from their last active flight? This sounds more like a frustrated CP.

This pilot had his crewrest reset based on a call from the front desk. The company was happy to do so. This is total disregard for safety? If a loud car drives by and a pilot didn't put in earplugs - harassment?

Vastly sub-par hotel? It's a Holiday inn express.

Who or what is causing / forcing the chief pilot and DO to behave in such an irresponsible and potentially criminal manner ? That appears to be central to the issue. This sounds like something you would hear from a third rate African operator and not a US airline. The owners should be held to account. Could there not be an undercover operation created to find out these scoundrels ? Let`s all hope for justice.

Are folks serious - undercover investigations to discover what? This is the priority law enforcement should be pursuing?!

It is helpful to read for context but it is probably better to edit and take down the actual complaint. I know the pilot probably feels it validates their position and they mention distributing it, but I think it's probably best to let it rest unless they really explicitly want it out there which I guess is their right.

I'll sign off on this one I think. Hope pilot in question has had some smoother flights recently.

JohnBurke
06-27-2018, 03:07 AM
I read the "correct" version with some interest, and was taken back to read that it was allegedly a Lt. Colonel that penned that. While I have sympathy for his situation, and have seen that sort of thing on many occasions personally and while representing other crew as a steward and business agent, the language and presentation was so unprofessional and unpolished that I'd have never used it. It needs a full re-write, at a minimum.

Every single adjective needs to come out. Lose the emotion. It's not a melodrama. Stick to facts. Use of language such as "mythical" makes it sound more likeit was written by a fourteen year old. The use of phrases such as "I demand" is not helpful. The only thing missing was a condescending "Do you have any idea who I am?" The author wishes to make clear that he us a very important person.

The author does not appear to understand regulation, or the process of grieving these events. The suggestion that he intends to take it beyond the grievance process to "other entities as I deem necessary to prodce results," regardless of poor grammar, speaks to reckless disregard and a combative approach. It's ill advised. Again, the entire statement needs a re-write, as it's very damaging to credibility as is, and makes it harder to defend, from a steward perspective. (I do not work for ABX and am not associated with their legal representation, nor am I a steward in their organization; my comments are an ouside reading based only on what's been presented). This is a serious grievance with validity: it deserves to be presented and prosecuted in the most favorable light. As presented here, it is anything but favorable.

The author provides that the chief pilot wanted to simply start duty when interruptions began. The author states that rest cannot be applied retrospectively, which is true; he gives no indication here that any such thing occurred. As it reads, the chief pilot, in essence, said to begin duty at the time of the first interruption. This is not a violation of duty regulations or any legal interpretation of them: it is a conservative application of duty time which is actually made in the author's favor. It does not suggest backdating a rest period. If the author had legal rest prior, then the rest requirement is met If this did not work for the author, then he should certainly have called fatigue.

This account should be handled with competent representation, and NOT posted on a public forum, as it does carry legal implications. I emphasise the call for competent representation, as the account as authored is not a competent rendering, and needs some careful review and a full re-write before being carried further. I would hope that no legal representative of the author posted it here, as there are legal and ethical implications of going that route. It's a vaguely concealed effort to try the matter quasi-publicly. It's a bad idea.

Having said that, ensure there is documention, including copies of any notes taken, communications received (a reminder as to why texts and emails have value in memorializing the exchange). The circumstances described are adequate to make a powerful argument for fatigue (once sanitized of the emotional and judgemental language). The combination of events (multiple interruptions, repeat fire alarms, evacuation, unpaid hotel, etc) are compelling, and speak to a larger problem. When a local pushes an issue, it's best done with one or two poster-child cases, and this one has all the hallmarks. Just don't let it go to waste by submitting it as it appears in tjis thread.

nitefr8dog
06-27-2018, 05:41 AM
I say again....do not negotiate. Tell them the events at each turn....then tell them after you are in a new hotel you will call to start the 10 hr clock then shut your phone OFF...repeat OFF. Do not accept any company calls.

nitefr8dog
06-27-2018, 05:45 AM
I read the "correct" version with some interest, and was taken back to read that it was allegedly a Lt. Colonel that penned that. While I have sympathy for his situation, and have seen that sort of thing on many occasions personally and while representing other crew as a steward and business agent, the language and presentation was so unprofessional and unpolished that I'd have never used it. It needs a full re-write, at a minimum.

Every single adjective needs to come out. Lose the emotion. It's not a melodrama. Stick to facts. Use of language such as "mythical" makes it sound more likeit was written by a fourteen year old. The use of phrases such as "I demand" is not helpful. The only thing missing was a condescending "Do you have any idea who I am?" The author wishes to make clear that he us a very important person.

The author does not appear to understand regulation, or the process of grieving these events. The suggestion that he intends to take it beyond the grievance process to "other entities as I deem necessary to prodce results," regardless of poor grammar, speaks to reckless disregard and a combative approach. It's ill advised. Again, the entire statement needs a re-write, as it's very damaging to credibility as is, and makes it harder to defend, from a steward perspective. (I do not work for ABX and am not associated with their legal representation, nor am I a steward in their organization; my comments are an ouside reading based only on what's been presented). This is a serious grievance with validity: it deserves to be presented and prosecuted in the most favorable light. As presented here, it is anything but favorable.

The author provides that the chief pilot wanted to simply start duty when interruptions began. The author states that rest cannot be applied retrospectively, which is true; he gives no indication here that any such thing occurred. As it reads, the chief pilot, in essence, said to begin duty at the time of the first interruption. This is not a violation of duty regulations or any legal interpretation of them: it is a conservative application of duty time which is actually made in the author's favor. It does not suggest backdating a rest period. If the author had legal rest prior, then the rest requirement is met If this did not work for the author, then he should certainly have called fatigue.

This account should be handled with competent representation, and NOT posted on a public forum, as it does carry legal implications. I emphasise the call for competent representation, as the account as authored is not a competent rendering, and needs some careful review and a full re-write before being carried further. I would hope that no legal representative of the author posted it here, as there are legal and ethical implications of going that route. It's a vaguely concealed effort to try the matter quasi-publicly. It's a bad idea.

Having said that, ensure there is documention, including copies of any notes taken, communications received (a reminder as to why texts and emails have value in memorializing the exchange). The circumstances described are adequate to make a powerful argument for fatigue (once sanitized of the emotional and judgemental language). The combination of events (multiple interruptions, repeat fire alarms, evacuation, unpaid hotel, etc) are compelling, and speak to a larger problem. When a local pushes an issue, it's best done with one or two poster-child cases, and this one has all the hallmarks. Just don't let it go to waste by submitting it as it appears in tjis thread.

I think he relayed his point very well...do not come here to work! Anywhere else would be better....anywhere



Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.1