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View Full Version : Seniority and Flow


ELPflyer225
06-15-2018, 06:16 PM
Not trying to throw the F-bomb around, but I had a question about the flow itself. When it comes to flowing based off of seniority, is that company seniority, captain #, pilot #, or seniority in your aircraft? What this stems from is a comment from a ENY Captain that I was talking to the other day that argued that going to the 145 side and accruing seniority there will help flow faster than the 175 side. Any merit to this? I appreciate all of the help.


SFA320
06-15-2018, 06:23 PM
Not trying to throw the F-bomb around, but I had a question about the flow itself. When it comes to flowing based off of seniority, is that company seniority, captain #, pilot #, or seniority in your aircraft? What this stems from is a comment from a ENY Captain that I was talking to the other day that argued that going to the 145 side and accruing seniority there will help flow faster than the 175 side. Any merit to this? I appreciate all of the help.

I left Envoy a long while back, but if nothing has changed you basically just had to wait your turn. There was no way to jump anybody by flying a different fleet type. While I was there you just had to wait in line and hope. As far as I know nothing has changed. So yeah company seniority.

ELPflyer225
06-15-2018, 06:33 PM
I left Envoy a long while back, but if nothing has changed you basically just had to wait your turn. There was no way to jump anybody by flying a different fleet type. While I was there you just had to wait in line and hope. As far as I know nothing has changed. So yeah company seniority.


Thanks! I appreciate your response.


KodiakRS
06-15-2018, 10:26 PM
Flow is still based on overall company seniority.

Having said that there may be some merit to what you heard. Voluntary CA upgrades are subject to a 1 year seat lock which will prevent flow. If someone wants to upgrade but thinks the seat lock may delay their flow waiting to upgrade on the 175 vs taking a 145 upgrade that's available now could make a difference.

havick206
06-15-2018, 10:53 PM
Also you need to be a CA or have held a CA seat to flow as per the new LOA.

Bigpimppilot
06-16-2018, 03:28 AM
What he meant was that all the lifers are on the 175 enjoying the long legs and good apu. If you ever want to see weekends off before you flow the 145 is the way to go

Cyio
06-16-2018, 03:34 AM
What he meant was that all the lifers are on the 175 enjoying the long legs and good apu. If you ever want to see weekends off before you flow the 145 is the way to go

This may be true in Dallas, not so much in ORD. Most of the Captains there seem to be younger, with an average of 12-16 months to flow. Movement up the list should happen at a bearable pace up there.

To the OP, its company seniority.

MD-11Loader
06-16-2018, 05:26 AM
This may be true in Dallas, not so much in ORD. Most of the Captains there seem to be younger, with an average of 12-16 months to flow. Movement up the list should happen at a bearable pace up there.

To the OP, its company seniority.

Until the lifers on the CRJ come over to the 175 and clog the top...

Bigpimppilot
06-16-2018, 05:28 AM
Yo elpflyer are you dallas based?

NoValueAviator
06-16-2018, 06:30 AM
Fleet is flow neutral. The FO seat lock and radically different NH experience on the 145 just makes it seem like there are two different airlines, actually it's only one. The only advantage of the 145 is the extra couple bucks on day one, and you'll blow through that easily in your first month off IOE hiring rides back and forth between JFK/LGA lol

DilsonWic
06-16-2018, 01:02 PM
Until the lifers on the CRJ come over to the 175 and clog the top...

Only 9 lifers left.

ELPflyer225
06-16-2018, 06:51 PM
Yo elpflyer are you dallas based?


Not yet, and probably not for a while. I am on with the cadet program with a school out in Denton, TX. I am trying to figure out which aircraft I would like to fly if I were to be afforded the opportunity to choose. At the end of the day, a jet is a jet, is a jet and I will be appreciative to be building 121 turbine time. I wanted to find out from those that have been in the same boat, if it were better to take the bonus money with the 140/145 or enjoy the forward lav of the 175.

ELPflyer225
06-16-2018, 06:54 PM
Fleet is flow neutral. The FO seat lock and radically different NH experience on the 145 just makes it seem like there are two different airlines, actually it's only one. The only advantage of the 145 is the extra couple bucks on day one, and you'll blow through that easily in your first month off IOE hiring rides back and forth between JFK/LGA lol


Between the two sides of the company, which one seems to have most productive NH experience?

BigZ
06-16-2018, 07:32 PM
Between the two sides of the company, which one seems to have most productive NH experience?

175 ORD by a landslide

Pedro4President
06-17-2018, 07:14 AM
31 lifers based on the 3xp on the 145 DFW. Anyone have any numbers on other positions?

NoValueAviator
06-17-2018, 07:44 AM
Basically, the NH experience on the 145 is awful because of NYC. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and I don't recommend coming to Envoy to anyone who isn't a cadet because of it. The company and union agreed to do some things to soften the blow of NY reserve, which has helped a lot. Now you can at least earn money instead of dipping into your savings and paying to work for the first 3 months, but the QOL and morale is low and everyone is just trying to get out.

Whiskey4
06-17-2018, 11:21 AM
Basically, the NH experience on the 145 is awful because of NYC. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and I don't recommend coming to Envoy to anyone who isn't a cadet because of it. The company and union agreed to do some things to soften the blow of NY reserve, which has helped a lot. Now you can at least earn money instead of dipping into your savings and paying to work for the first 3 months, but the QOL and morale is low and everyone is just trying to get out.

Whatís so bad about NY for a new-hire FO?? Three months of unlimited hotels and positive space travel. By then you should easily be holding a line. What about the oneís who live in the Northeast? Isnít NY a no-brainer for them?

I get the DEC argument, but an FO looking for rapid seniority progression would likely do well in NY.

Different story if you live in the Midwest or West. I just think NY gets a worse rap than it really deserves. IF the airline was stagnating, which itís not, then long-time reserve there for a commuter could be a costly proposition due to the crash pad and transportation issues.

RUkidding
06-17-2018, 11:50 AM
Any chance of a newbie getting ORD based after training?

MD-11Loader
06-17-2018, 01:23 PM
Basically, the NH experience on the 145 is awful because of NYC. I wouldn't recommend it to anyone, and I don't recommend coming to Envoy to anyone who isn't a cadet because of it. The company and union agreed to do some things to soften the blow of NY reserve, which has helped a lot. Now you can at least earn money instead of dipping into your savings and paying to work for the first 3 months, but the QOL and morale is low and everyone is just trying to get out.

Thatís just a crock of crap. I did almost a year as a new hire in LGA, two leg commuted much of the time and never used a commuter clause. NYC will always be the turnover base for airlines because people donít want to be there, but itís not that bad.

Whiskey4
06-17-2018, 01:25 PM
Any chance of a newbie getting ORD based after training?

Absolutely. Either pick ORD 175 in training (if offered, and if itís available when your turn comes up), or preference bid a base transfer. ORD should not take long to get into on the 145. My guess is within 6-7 months (1-2 vacancy bids) of your class date.

Whiskey4
06-17-2018, 01:42 PM
Thatís just a crock of crap. I did almost a year as a new hire in LGA, two leg commuted much of the time and never used a commuter clause. NYC will always be the turnover base for airlines because people donít want to be there, but itís not that bad.

Agreed. NY may not be somebodyís first choice of base, but I definitely wouldnít avoid Envoy altogether simply because you might have to spend a few months in the Big Apple.

havick206
06-17-2018, 02:23 PM
Agreed. NY may not be somebodyís first choice of base, but I definitely wouldnít avoid Envoy altogether simply because you might have to spend a few months in the Big Apple.

I live near base, and NY has been great for me.

One persons trash is another persons treasure.

llws
06-17-2018, 04:30 PM
Flow is still based on overall company seniority.

Having said that there may be some merit to what you heard. Voluntary CA upgrades are subject to a 1 year seat lock which will prevent flow. If someone wants to upgrade but thinks the seat lock may delay their flow waiting to upgrade on the 175 vs taking a 145 upgrade that's available now could make a difference.

What is this "waiting to upgrade" you speak of?

pitchattitude
06-17-2018, 04:31 PM
Any chance of a newbie getting ORD based after training?
You might consider the CRJ as well.

RUkidding
06-17-2018, 10:44 PM
You might consider the CRJ as well.

Thanks!! Iím excited to hear this as Iím already typed in it!

TransWorld
06-18-2018, 05:21 AM
What is the DOH for the most recent flows?

I know first of the year a 2006 hire flowed. However, there are relatively few hires that year and the next few years.

Pat2389
06-18-2018, 10:32 AM
I live near base, and NY has been great for me.

One persons trash is another persons treasure.


Hey Havick, I recently moved from Dallas to the suburbs of PHL. (Wife is from here) 2-3 hour drive to LGA depending on the time of day. Would love to hear how LGA 145 is (lines, overnights, flying etc) from somebody who actually wants to be there. Thanks!

pitchattitude
06-18-2018, 10:33 AM
What is this "waiting to upgrade" you speak of?
Probably referring to the upcoming standing bid they will have for, most likely, 145 LGA. That will allow someone to voluntarily upgrade without waiting for the next bid. That will be a two year seat lock. That being said, I seriously doubt there is ANYONE who is within a timeframe that is affected by the flow seatlock that hasnít already upgraded. Could be an issue if someone was already a captain in CRJ or 145 and wanted to fly the 175 their last year at Envoy.

havick206
06-18-2018, 12:41 PM
Hey Havick, I recently moved from Dallas to the suburbs of PHL. (Wife is from here) 2-3 hour drive to LGA depending on the time of day. Would love to hear how LGA 145 is (lines, overnights, flying etc) from somebody who actually wants to be there. Thanks!

PM me if you want

3EngineTaxi
06-19-2018, 06:33 AM
What is the DOH for the most recent flows?

I know first of the year a 2006 hire flowed. However, there are relatively few hires that year and the next few years.

Most recent were March 2007, possibly into April 2007 by now.

FYI, there are still 167 pilots from 2007 waiting to flow, 113 from 2008, 0 from 2009, 86 from 2010, 237 from 2011. You and I probably have different understandings of the meaning of "relatively few."

However, there are indeed relatively few from the several years after 2011:

5 from 2012
67 from 2013
57 from 2014
75 from 2015.

Hiring really increased near the end of 2016, and 2017 was a huge year.

(All numbers are approximate.)

TransWorld
06-19-2018, 09:21 AM
Most recent were March 2007, possibly into April 2007 by now.

FYI, there are still 167 pilots from 2007 waiting to flow (7 months), 113 from 2008 (5 months), 0 from 2009 (0 months), 86 from 2010 (3 months), 237 from 2011 (9 months). You and I probably have different understandings of the meaning of "relatively few."

However, there are indeed relatively few from the several years after 2011:

5 from 2012 (1 month)
67 from 2013 (4 months)
57 from 2014 (4 months)
75 from 2015 (5 months).

Hiring really increased near the end of 2016, and 2017 was a huge year.

(All numbers are approximate.)

Thanks for taking the time to look up the numbers. I added months, based on 25 per month through 2011 and 15 per month from 2012-2015. Assumes no other attrition.

Based on this, 2007-2011 will flow in about 2 years.
2012-2015 will flow in just over 1 year.

Interesting perspective.

ELPflyer225
06-19-2018, 11:11 AM
Thank you everyone for replying with valuable information.

pitchattitude
06-19-2018, 11:43 AM
Thanks for taking the time to look up the numbers. I added months, based on 25 per month through 2011 and 15 per month from 2012-2015. Assumes no other attrition.

Based on this, 2007-2011 will flow in about 2 years.
2012-2015 will flow in just over 1 year.

Interesting perspective.
How do you figure 07-11 will flow in two years and 12-15 will flow in ďjust over 1 yearĒ? From when?!

Cyio
06-19-2018, 02:01 PM
How do you figure 07-11 will flow in two years and 12-15 will flow in ďjust over 1 yearĒ? From when?!

Iím assuming he means 1 year after the 2007-2011 group is done. I could be wrong.

This does add up pretty close though as the 2016 new hires are 3-4 years out from now.

TransWorld
06-19-2018, 04:19 PM
I’m assuming he means 1 year after the 2007-2011 group is done. I could be wrong.

This does add up pretty close though as the 2016 new hires are 3-4 years out from now.

That is correct. So, by the end of 2021 or so, Envoy will have flowed all the 2007-2015 hires.

Should have said 2012-2015 is forecast to flow during another 1 year, AFTER all the 2007-2011 will have flowed. Sorry for the confusion.